A verdict has been reached in the Nikolas Cruz case. This pathetic excuse for a human being gunned down students and staff members of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in my State of Florida, as if he was at a carnival shooting gallery! A school he had previously attended, where students knew him.
Nevertheless, at least one juror, felt that the death penalty is much too harsh and so, Cruz gets LIFE in prison, instead!
Seems to me that the only death penalties being carried out these days are on the most innocent, vulnerable, voiceless and defenseless of all, the preborn. They are denied LIFE, while monsters like this, get a pass.
To be clear, I am not all in for the death penalty in all cases, but this one, leaves zero cause for uncertainty or doubt!
I call it as I see it, what say you?
In some prisons, death row inmates have more privileges and better food than those who get a life sentence, strange as it may seem. Some inmates, who received a life sentence, have gone so far as to kill another inmate so that they can have their sentence "upgraded" to death row. Given those circumstances, a life sentence for a young person is a worse judgment, in my estimation.
In that sense, the boy may have gotten what he deserved.
I think he deserved a better shot at life from the get-go but he didn't get it. This country needs to seriously start looking at the precursors to events like this. We hear about them trial after trial yet we do nothing or very little in the way of prevention. Seems we Would rather House people in prisons for the majority of their lives. I know that not every child who was born addicted and with fetal alcohol syndrome turns out to commit mass shooting but it's an awfully tough road to navigate without family or support. But I suppose we should praise his mother for seeing her pregnancy through to the end for better or worse knowing that she was going to drink and do drugs all the way through it.
The Parkland parents wanted the death penalty for this disturbed young man. He is why we have the death penalty, although rarely carried out. I hope his time doing LIFE leaves him, at least, as miserable, as he has left so many!!!
I think his birth mother assured that his life would be more than miserable when she decided to drink and do drugs throughout her pregnancy that she brought to term. Maybe the government should monitor pregnancies? Or should the mother have been brought in on this case? Where is the accountability in terms of the damage that she did to this individual during her pregnancy??
We will have many more of this kind especially in States like mine that ban abortion completely and we have an opioid crisis with some women that will not give up their drugs for pregnancy.
It may cross some parkland parents' minds how their lives would be different today if the shooters mom would have chosen abortion realizing she was a drug addict.
So kind of you to show such concern for the victims and their families!!
Rather than talking about a missed opportunity to abort...perhaps we should be talking about how the many warning signs were ignored repeatedly. Because people are so afraid to speak out against weirdos, out of fear they'll be called names. We are expected to embrace the weirdos, right? We are expected to cater to the weirdos, right? Well you woke folk should be happy, he will continue to be catered to for a long, long time.
You must have missed when I talked about the ignored warning signs of a mom taking drugs and drinking all throughout her pregnancy. I have no idea who the weirdos are that you speak of.
This is a tough one,
Many say that the death penalty is a barbaric expression of vengeance that would not solve anything. Vengeance while not codified is a part of our existence and reality. I think of the anger of the bereavement of not just immediate families but extended ones. How many people believed that this young man has merited the ultimate penalty for such a heinous crime?
As the preeminent liberal on this forum, I say that there is a place for death penalty. Its application carefully and narrowly applied for only the most heinous of crimes where there really isn't any mitigating circumstances in the perpetrators defense. There can be no convictions based on circumstantial evidence, he or she is proven beyond a doubt to have committed the crime. Mass murder would be included. I would grant leniency for mental illness that can be proven to have been profound enough a factor and not just pop-psychology. I would grant leniency for mental retardation if it can shown to be profound enough to impair judgement. The accused is to be given every benefit of the doubt and we are forced to acknowledge the conclusion of his or her guilt. We should focus on a fair jury selection as another protection for the accused.
I could not help to have noted that in Japan, which I consider to be a civilized society, they did not waste anytime sending the perpetrators of that Sarin attack a few years ago to the gallows for their crimes. So, there is a place among civilized people for the death penalty.
I may well not have accepted the verdict for Cruz, as I would lean toward a death penalty for these senseless massacre kinds of crimes.
But as it is, I wasn't there to evaluate all of the evidence and will except a life sentence with NO POSSIBILITY of parole. In other words, erosion will wear down the walls of his prison before he ever sees the light of day again. Such may be the case with Sirhan, the assassin of Robert Kennedy.
Thank you Cred for this thought out, insightful response.
When I was a much younger version of me, I was all about the death penalty for the bad guys. My thinking, what better way to terrify, deter, nip the potential life as a bad guy, in the bud!?
We have come so far with forensics, I've no doubt that in the past, innocent men have been put to death, while the guilty party has gone free.
Things aren't always as they seem, but, as stated, this particular case, leaves no doubt!
Cruz should be on death row, for about a week or two or the time required for one appeal.
What deterrent exists, if the death penalty is never handed down or when and if it is...death day is drug out for decades?
I hold the opinion that the death sentence is not a deterrent to those whose crime would deserve it. That same opinion holds that there are criminals that deserve it. The sentence is nothing more than vengeance and that should not be the motive of our justice system.
Criminal penalties should serve one of two purposes; punishment or removal from society.
Consider your 'qualifications.' I think juries that give a death sentence would feel they have met the bar you describe, yet exonerated death sentence recipients have shown those juries were wrong.
If an error can't be corrected then there shouldn't be a choice to make it.
GA
It may or may not be a deterrent. That is impossible for you to say, just like it is impossible to show statistics revealing how many homes were not robbed because of gun ownership. (Just an example here. My neighbor does not have a gun. I do. Which do you think a theif would choose to rob? There are no statistics on that.)
What the death penalty is supposed to do though is kill those people so that they do not get out and commit another crime. Death is not the same as life in prison. You are old enough to have seen many changes in the way things work where you live, and who knows that some woke congress will come along in 20 years and pass a federal law that the maximum sentence is 30 years. Never happen? It has already happened here. Even serial killers only get 30 years.
The death penalty can avoid those mistakes in the future.
Yep, it is impossible for me to 'prove' my opinion is right. However, I don't think a murderer considers the difference between a life sentence and the death penalty as a deciding factor in doing the act. That seems logical to me.
I'm not against a death sentence for a deserving criminal, but I am against it for an innocent man. As human judges, we are not perfect, and killing cannot be reversed, so the question for supporters boils down to how many innocent men is it worth killing to make sure we get the deserving ones.
GA
I do not think logic is the deciding factor when someone is about to commit murder. But hey, maybe I am wrong. I do not know and hang out with murderers.
You do realize that things change, right? A life sentence does not always mean a life sentence. There are going to be innocent men, women, and children killed in the future by those released. Their deaths cannot be revered either.
The logic wasn't the murderer's, it was mine thinking that the difference in penalty wouldn't deter them.
As to the lost lives due to the murderer not being caught and killed . . . that's the murderer's decision, not our decision, killing an innocent man because of a wrongful conviction would be ours.
That seems to amount to justifying killing a bad man so he won't kill more innocents and killing an innocent man so we have the tool to kill the rightfully convicted bad man.
What if you were that innocent, wrongly convicted man sentenced to death, how many dead bad men would it take to justify losing your life?
To your point about life sentences changing, I think a life sentence is more wrong and cruel than a death sentence. Locking someone in a cage for life is crueler than ending their life. But, that decision is reversible, so I choose life sentences over the more appropriate clean-removal-from-society death penalty.
GA
There was a case here in Brazil where a serial killer murdered over 100 children. So you think allowing him to stay alive until society decides that life imprisonment is cruel is fair?
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%C3%ADaco_da_Bicicleta
I can see this same thing happening here {*maximums of 20/30 years for a serial killer etc.} if we do not stop putting "woke" District Attorneys into office! George Soros has made it his mission to destroy us, he is invested in it up to his eyeballs!!! He is pumping so much money into the Democratic Party every election that they may very well be calling him the Godfather by now!
Getting back to my initial thoughts on this topic, it is so very warped to me as to which lives are valued (no matter what!!) and which are devalued, but when one attempts to make the case for the devalued, people come out of the word work, just so they can say, How Dare You!!!
IMHO, Warped!
As I said, this is a 'tough one'
You are right it is a vengeance in a form.
And it can be both a punishment and removal from society, the latter based on the possibility of further criminal activity from the condemned in the future.
I am in a quandary because of the sordid record of the death penalty as too often applied unjustly.
But on the other hand, what do I do with the Eichmanns, Himlers, Goerings, Hitlers, Megeles, Pol Pots, Idi Amins, etc? Watching some of the proceedings of the 1946 Nuremberg trials, I was of the opinion that civilization demanded that these men, committing crimes against humanity far beyond activity associated with war and combatants, should be executed.
So, yes, it is punishment, removal and vengeance.
I speak of the use of the death penalty sparingly, but there are times and situations where it is warranted and justice demands it.
Your examples, "Eichmanns, Himlers, Goerings, Hitlers, Megeles, Pol Pots, Idi Amins, etc" seem to make the point that as a society we are willing to kill a few innocents so that we have the legal tool to kill the deserving.
Is there another way to understand that rationalization?
My only point is that we can't use the death sentence "sparingly" because when it is warranted it is necessary, and we cannot make the determination to use it objectively. Every death sentence is the result of the subjective judgment of a jury. As you say, our history shows how wrong that subjective judgment can be.
GA
Yes, there is another way to see this, we should not be willing to kill innocents if there is ANY doubt as to their guilt. But that does change not the fact that those guilty of heinous crimes reserve for themselves the ultimate penalty.
It is as you say, considerably subjective. Yet, Sirhan Sirhan shot Robert Kennedy before scores of witnesses, is there any doubt as to his guilt?
I see nothing gained by allowing these beasts from my previous post whose guilt is witnessed by all any leniency.
There is something to be said about being imprisoned under highly spartan conditions for life with no chance of parole or reprieve as being for many worst than death. I am reminded of Rudolf Hess who spent the remainder of his life (40 years) in prison for his role as part of the Third Reich. Life inprisonment, meant just that, life imprisonment.
The death penalty is barbaric - even in cases as clear-cut as this one.
If abortion is not acceptable because it's taking a life then how do you justify the death penalty? I mean if you're standing on a pro life moral conviction then doesn't that include all life? Or maybe it's more accurate to say you are anti-abortion but pro death penalty rather than pro-life. You've made room for some exceptions where it is acceptable to take someone's life. A value judgment is made between the lives of the two?
I haven't really looked at any sort of statistics but maybe you're an outlier. I suppose it's possible that most who have a pro-life stance also oppose the death penalty.
I don't justify the death penalty in all cases, no more than you justify abortion in all cases.
Can you justify the death penalty in any case?
I am 100% against the death penalty. The government putting to death a cognizant individual doesn't really sit right with me. Abortion is needed in this country. The greater majority happen before 13 weeks which is preferable but sadly there are instances that later term abortions are necessary for different medical reasons. I sure would like to see a lot more effort to address unwanted pregnancy before it actually happens. We just don't seem to be very good at solutions in this country. Politicians don't seem to embrace much that just makes common sense.
Barbaric isn't as condemning as the fact that it is not reversible.
GA
My personal circumstances should suggest that I would be against abortion. However, I strongly defend a woman's right to choose. You might see an inconsistency here - I don't.
Plenty, there's another person involved, one who is innocent.
Here we go, Bill Clinton, depends on what the definition of is is?
Well, I define a person as a human being and I definitely gave birth to human beings (aka: babies, persons, little people), more than once!
What I have a hard time accepting is that while you will play these little word games with me about what is a person - you'll defend the life of a "barbaric, clear-cut case" mass murderer of children. I have to ask...at what stage/age do you recognize personhood (aka: a human being) ?
Aborting babies "is needed in this country" but ridding this country of unrepentant serial killers, mass murderers, school shooters, etc. is not?
So babies get the death sentence instead. Okay, that's creepy!!!
You'd rather Force women to carry dead fetuses? Fetuses that have no brain? No heart? No viability? Catastrophic chromosomal abnormalities that are only discovered later term? Okay sounds reasonable
"Late-term" abortions are not medically safe or needed. It is easier for a woman to give birth according to medical professionals. Therefore, the so called "reasonable justification" for waiting until a baby is 6 to 9 months old to abort a child because the "woman's life is at stake" is invalid and makes no reasonable sense.
Rather, this justification is a talking point for Planned Parenthood which profits off of ignorance (and convenience) and for Leftists who do not know any better and are thus, willing and "useful idiots" who happily regurgitate emotionally charged statements while choosing to ignore medical science.
Furthermore, women have "late-term" abortions for the same reasons they have early term abortions, that is to say, they do not wish to interrupt their lives with the burden of a child.
clinical research shows that some serious fetal health issues are not observable until the third trimester of pregnancy.
But late-term abortions are also very rare. In reality 91% of abortions take place at or before 13 weeks of pregnancy. But again, your language is so aggressive and so condescending. Do you not know how to Converse in a normal manner???
And you say that late term abortions are unnecessary? And you say this based on what? Your medical knowledge? Stop already with your rhetoric and maybe realize that there are real people out there suffering with these heartbreaking pregnancies. Babies that are planned for, wanted and already named but will be carried to term Dead on arrival. My god, have some common sense and put aside your petty partisan crap for once.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/20 … pregnancy/
You are the one participating in petty partisan crap {as you put it} but you don't see it, you are much too concerned with how the tone of those who disagree with you, makes you feel. You take it personally, rather than really listening to what they are trying to convey.
Late-term abortions are never medically necessary. They are harmful to the mother. If a woman is in danger, a doctor can deliver the child through a cesarean section in minutes.
A late-term abortion entails dilating the cervix to an unnatural proportion to accommodate a large, viable baby; this takes many days and is extremely painful for the woman. The mother is then given medication to begin contractions. Generally, she is set up in a hotel room (after she has paid $8000 to $10,000) and after 10 days, she delivers the dead child alone.
Again, the myth you believe... that abortion is necessary for late-term abortions is a lie.
Sometimes, a baby must be terminated early due to cancer or an ectopic pregnancy. But even then, medical science has become so sophisticated that it can sometimes take care of mothers and babies in such cases.
Regardless of the laws you may cite, no doctor is ever prevented from terminating a pregnancy to save a mother's life.
Abortion is a different matter as it is the decision of a layperson, usually without medical knowledge, to end the life of a human being for various reasons, often concerning self-interest.
Again, a medical professional is never prevented from terminating a pregnancy for medical reasons in any state at any time.
"Late-term abortions are never medically necessary".
Oh good lord, really? Thank you Dr Savvy. You are absolutely painful.
What is the difference between delivering a catastrophically damaged fetus through cesarean or abortion??? Please, with your medical expertise enlighten us
If only that was the truth. Perfectly healthy full term babies are aborted every day. Does that sound reasonable?
Whenever I see Crump's name, I cringe! He is a horrible person, I don't know that I can trust this story, at least not in its entirety.
The fact remains, no matter how many of these sensationalized stories you find, perfectly healthy babies, many full term, are aborted every day!!! Because the primary reason for abortion IS belated birth control.
Let's just stick with the facts and not what people like to believe is happening.
The vast majority of abortions,around nine-in-ten, occur during the first trimester of a pregnancy. In 2019, 93% of abortions occurred during the first trimester, that is, at or before 13 weeks of gestation, according to the CDC. An additional 6% occurred between 14 and 20 weeks of pregnancy, and 1% were performed at 21 weeks or more of gestation.
Additionally,
72% of clinics would be willing to do the abortion process for 12 weeks gestation period. At 20 weeks gestation, this number fell to 25%. Only 10% of clinics offer abortion services for women at 24 weeks gestation period.
Also, states that allow late term abortions only allow exceptions for life of the mother and catastrophic circumstances concerning the fetus. These states also require a second physician to attend an abortion that takes place after the state’s gestational age limit.
As I've already stated, the primary purpose for abortion IS belated birth control.
Which, unfortunately, means a death penalty is handed down, followed through on and then the victim is disposed of, sometimes intact, other times in parts and pieces. No trial for these defenseless little human beings, no Attorney Crump to the rescue with a camera crew in close proximity, no mercy being shown by any jurors, no RIGHTS for him or her, whatsoever, just the death sentence which comes via abortion.
When does a zygote (a fertilized egg) become a human being, and why at that point?
My body always somehow knew with my pregnancies, when life began within. I don't know how to explain that any better. A Mom thing?! A woman thing!?
That's why I am adamant about unwanted pregnancies being nipped in the bud with the morning after pill.....literally, immediately! Preferring a pill or some other contraception, before the little budding bud or buddette.
What is your thinking...are you with the "Depends on what the meaning of is is" crowd?
To be clear, the Mom's life comes first, no matter how far along, unless she knows she is dying and wants her child to live.
No sense in both of them dying.
A very thought-provoking question.
A bioethicist may say that brain death indicates the end of human life as we know it and that that full "humanness" begins when the brain starts functioning. When does consciousness begin?
Of course every religion has their own unique view also.
It gets complicated right, especially when you attempt to repurpose words and phrases in order to justify the horrific act of destroying an innocent life, as has become customary.
As for me, "religion" has nothing to do with determining when I knew that new life was growing inside me; that's intuition, some might even say, common sense or utilizing a process of reasoning.
You're a Mom right? Does what I am saying make any sense to you?
Can you let your guard down for a minute and talk to me woman to woman?
Yes AB, I'm a proud mama of 7 all grown and on their way. I am also an Open door for foster care and emergency shelter care of babies and children in my county. I'm not against life or for the random "murder" of babies as some depict. I do see the issue is being so much more complicated than the all or nothing endeavor as it is portrayed. There are lots of gray areas, nuances and considerations. We would most likely see a reduction in abortions in this country if we provided better education on family planning. As a teacher of over 20 years I can tell you of the countless crazy things girls believe they can do to prevent pregnancy. None of which are legitimate but no one has ever talked to them. The intervention in this area needs to happen long before pregnancy. We also need better access to contraception. Many families, especially now, have no access to a doctor or a clinic that can provide birth control at a low cost or no cost. We aren't good at real, practical, common Sense solutions in this country. We react too late. I'm a pragmatist above all else so I don't want to hear the same rhetoric year after year. I want to see solutions that address the problem. The issue and need for abortion will never go away but I'm certain we can reduce the numbers. That would require the far right letting go of this issue as a constant talking point rather than coming to the table for a real solution.
You don't want to see abortion? Let's see some preventative measures put in place.
A very good place to start is to stop the glamorization of abortion and of the proud of my abortions campaigns. So very ugly and demeaning to women and to motherhood....
What is that all about?
Less focus on that garbage and more on education and prevention.
I completely agree.
Yes, it's complicated, but not for the reason you give. The intent is not to kill people (as you claim) it is to make a decision on what a person is. What part of life inside another is human, what is not.
And we all have differing definitions that we work with. Yours appears to be when the sperm enters the egg and you demand that everyone else accept your definition, false or not, without regard to what their own thoughts may be. Unreasonable.
If it is growing, it is living, if it's in the human body, it is human, if it is eliminated, it is killed.
Sorry you want to argue with me about it or continually tell me how "unreasonable" or "demanding" I am. You don't have to accept it and I don't need any validation from you.
My wife had appendix take out. Was that a human?
She lost her uterus, too. Was that human.
And her ovaries, FULL of life. Were those eggs human beings?
She lost a chunk of intesting - was that a human?
Life in side a human body is not necessarily a human being. Try again?
I don't need you to validate me. But the whole country desperately needs people to understand that their opinion is not the end all be all to the question. That their opinion, or their religious beliefs, is not something anyone need agree with.
Oh, she is still with me - a happier married couple you will not find. We have (hopefully) many years left in us. Yes, she has, in many ways, had it rough from a health standpoint, but she has always come through it.
See, I can't accept that answer either. A dog has brain waves, as does anything with a brain. That doesn't make the dog into a person.
On top of that, it seems that the primary difference, the biggest one, between our brain and that of other animals is the large pre-frontal cortex, where reason takes place. And that doesn't fully develop until the mid 20's!
I think it goes beyond just measurable brain waves. I think it gets into the idea of consciousness.
According to biologists, life begins at conception. The zygote you speak of is a human being from the beginning. It is not like women give birth to zebras.
Any biologist will tell you that human life begins at conception. That is a simple fact.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "any biologist"!
Whose to say, what is a biologist, a chemist, any scientist for that matter?
What is science?
What is life?
What is a human being?
Can you prove that a woman can't naturally give birth to a zebra?
What is, "is" and what isn't "is"!
Could also pose, as a question
and it still works
{what is "it"?}
I digress.
What is is and what isn't is?
Come Savvy, take my hand, let's try to keep up together!
Lol. I hear you. It is not okay with me when misinformation is thrown around so casually.
As for the Zebra example, it was merely that, mixed in with a bit of hubris to remind us all that humans are always human beings, no matter which stage of life.
Hear, hear!
Misinformation has to be thrown around, wordplay must be utilized. It is imperative to refer to abortion as healthcare, {but not women's healthcare, that's how wacked things have gotten!}
It is equally imperative to make the defenders of the most innocent among us, out to be the bad guys; shutting them up, rounding them up, arresting them.....whatever is necessary to continue to be able to justify the truly "barbaric" act of abortion.
And now we have breaking news of a child shooting at least five people in Raleigh North Carolina. And when this individual is brought to trial, how much will you wager that this child has a whole lifetime of horrendous experiences ? Trial after trial these are the things we hear. The abuse from a parent, the drug addiction of a parent or the defects at birth due to such use. Yet we sit on our hands and do nothing to address these issues in the hopes of at least preventing some of these senseless killings. Will this just be another case of send this child to death? When will people actually hold their politicians accountable for doing things that actually work for the common good of us all? Nah, it's more fun just to mud sling and call names back and forth. This is the muck of two Party politics.
But we can't play God and abort every child we think will not stand a chance or that may go rogue.
Mass shootings weren't happening prior to 1999, why are they happening so frequently now? My theory, we broke the covenant, we turned our backs on God, we've devalued God-given life and now we are paying the price for it.
Good to know. I am sorry to hear that she has been through so much, as have you, because as we all know, in marriage, we are in it together, for the good times and the bad.
As for our areas of disagreement, on this subject, on God things, etc., it got me thinking. Conservatives, Libertarians, anti-Party-pro Americans, Republicans, etc. Let's say, right of center and leave it there, disagree on many subjects. It happens here in the forums, all of the time. But with the Dems, let's say left of center and leave it there, that's not the case. I've never seen disagreement among them.
We approach each and every subject uniquely, as individuals, not as Party members. Whereas, those, left of center, glom on, pile on, stick together. Propping up the Democratic Party no matter what! Propping up their pathetic, destructive so-called "leaders" no matter what, they do it in unison.
Just an observation, I am so far off topic now, but I initiated, so it's all good.
LOL I would have put it just the opposite. Conservatives agree on most things, with religion being nearly the only hold out and then only with the far right. Small differences of opinion here and there, of course, but can always get along.
Liberals, on the other hand, Can't make up their mind. As soon as they have turned the world upside down they repeat the process, extending the original though 10 fold. Nor do they agree; the flap over transgenders participating in women's sports is a case in point.
It is a little comical (to me, at least, with my twisted sense of humor) just how differently we view the "opposition" compared to how they view themselves.
Savvy explained herself in great detail, there is no reason for you to attack her personally.
Do you believe that it is a large percentage of "catastrophically damaged fetuses" which make it to "late term" or full term Faye?
I'm just coming out of a cave, a very big one...and I extended an invitation to all to come and see white male lion. Okay. After me, right?
Yes, go back into the cave Miebakagh, with the lion, it is much safer there!
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