Catholic School Student Suspended For Protesting Trans Bathroom Policy

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  1. GA Anderson profile image89
    GA Andersonposted 15 months ago

    For context, the details aren't the point, the action is. That the student appears to be an activist is only important relative to what is claimed and reported to be his 'bullying' behavior: whether it was as innocent as the student claims or as strident as his background might indicate.

    It appears—from multiple sources, that the student said (insisted, claimed, pronounced?), in an open classroom discussion, that there are only two genders. Two transgender students objected to the offensive statement.

    The school suspended the student for bullying. That is the point: a religious school took action against a student saying what the religion claims to believe.

    Source: Canadian Catholic school student who was suspended for protesting transgender bathroom policy speaks out

    GA

    1. Nathanville profile image92
      Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      All I can say is that given it’s a religious school, and the student was supporting religious dogma, then the school is being quite progressive – which as an atheist and humanitarianist, I see as a good thing.

      1. GA Anderson profile image89
        GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I was careless in the OP. I didn't consider that my example would naturally lead to a religious discussion. My intended point was about the effect of political influence on core values. The negative effect of over-compensation.

        That point covers both 'sides.' This one happens to involve conservatives, others involve liberals.

        The point that makes-or-breaks the thought of the OP is the physical science truth that there are two genders. (with rare instances of anomalies) And there is the developing field of psychological science truth that says there are multiple gender identities.

        With the understanding that "gender" and "gender identity" are different things, I agree with both 'science' truths. If that isn't a point of common ground, then we're stuck.

        GA

        1. Nathanville profile image92
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Thanks for the clarity - Yes you are absolutely right, there is a distinct difference between "gender" and "gender identity".

        2. wilderness profile image93
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Perhaps we just all need to recognize and accept that our language is insufficient to the task at this point.  Yes, there are two sexes, and only two sexes.  And yes, psychologically there can be many "genders"...as long as we all recognize that "gender" does not refer to sex.

          Otherwise we need a new term to point to the psychology of how we "feel" as opposed to what we "are".  I leave it to others to create that term, but if we're going to continue to mean "sex" when we say "gender", and pretend that we don't know the new definition, then a new term is necessary.

          1. GA Anderson profile image89
            GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Sort of like Global warming to Climate change to Climate crisis? Or the CRT that isn't CRT?

            We have new terms: gender identity and transgender. Both qualify the basic term "gender." For most folks, those terms work. They understand what they mean. Sex and gender are defined as the same thing. That they have other meanings—dependent on use, doesn't change their common-usage meaning.

            New terms probably won't change either side's mind. Euphemisms are evasions.

            GA

      2. abwilliams profile image67
        abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        As I type Nat, you are adamantly and simultaneously attempting to make the case for science when it comes to climate change crisis, in another forum discussion.....while completely dismissing the science in this case, referring to the scientific fact that there are but two genders, as "religious dogma"
        Care to explain.

        1. Nathanville profile image92
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          GA clarified the point in his reply to me above e.g. that there is a distinct difference between "gender" and "gender identity".

          1. abwilliams profile image67
            abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            That's nice, but I need a little more clarity.
            With this comment are you agreeing that there are only two genders and that "religious dogma" only enters in, when gender identity is being questioned?
            If that's the case, are you also suggesting that there is no longer (or there has never been) any room for reason, common sense, wisdom...clarity? Are those human qualities considered religious dogma, as well?

            1. Nathanville profile image92
              Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              What more is there to say!  Basically, some forms of Christianity including the Catholic Church tend to take the bible literally (Biblical literalism); as opposed to others, like the Church of England, that take the bible figuratively or metaphorically.

              With the former there is little or no tolerance for LGBT (which is what I call religious dogma), whereas in the latter there is greater latitude for LGBT e.g. on the 9th Feb 2023 the Church of England voted to allow the blessing of ‘same sex couples’ in church.

      3. Sharlee01 profile image89
        Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        "All I can say is that given it’s a religious school, and the student was supporting religious dogma, then the school is being quite progressive – which as an atheist and humanitarianist, I see as a good thing."


        Yes, and that would be your right as a thinking human being able to choose and travel your own path and share your ideologies.

        This young man clearly was sharing the science of the matter, as well as his religious beliefs. You have shared you find religion a form of dogma. This young man apparently feels his religious beliefs are important, and he values them.

        Science tells us we have two genders, and yes in society we have those that depart from what is the norm and feel they identify more with being the opposite gender they were biologically born. In my view, this is their right. 

        In this case, perhaps the school should have pulled all involved into the principal office and explained the meaning of human rights...  Both sides have them,  and both sides need to realize neither sets precedence over the other.

        As a Catholic,  I believe we have two genders. This young man has the right to believe what not only science tells him, but his religion tells him.

        In my view, he also had the right to bring his thoughts into an open classroom discussion.   As did, the two young men had the right to share their thoughts on gender identity.

        1. Nathanville profile image92
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          For clarity, I am not say that ‘religion is a form of dogma’, I was just referencing the fact that some religions, like the Catholic Church, tend to take the bible literally (Biblical literalism), and therefore have little or no tolerance for LGBT; while other religions, like the Church of England take the bible figuratively or metaphorically, allowing a much greater latitude towards accepting LGBT.

          A prime example being that on the 9th Feb 2023 the Church of England voted to allow the blessing of ‘same sex couples’ in church; something which I imagine will be less likely to happen in the Catholic Church.

          1. Sharlee01 profile image89
            Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

            I agree with the points you have made. All very accurate in my view.

      4. Live to Learn profile image61
        Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        As a woman, I can see why a man would see that as a good thing. I find it sad that, instead of tackling the problem of gender stereotypes, we've decided to pretend that traits determine what sex we are. I was there when women were liberated. This toxic and patriarchal belief that men are women and can push their private parts into our spaces, dominate our sports and claim they are us is depressing.

        1. Nathanville profile image92
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Although I am a happily married heterosexual, our family has close ties with the LGBT community; some of our closest friends, male & female are gay – So my perception of gay’s rights is going to be somewhat different to yours.

          1. Live to Learn profile image61
            Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Gay and trans are dissimilar. To imply that not wanting a male in a female bathroom is somehow anti gay means you are hoping to create an association that doesn't exist.

            1. Nathanville profile image92
              Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              LGBT is not just Lesbian and Gay; LGBT is Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender – so I don’t understand your comment?

              To elaborate on my previous statement, when I said “some of our closest friends, male & female are gay” I was a bit sloppy with grammar; to be more precise, I should have said gay and lesbian; and it’s not just gays and lesbians in our ‘circle of friends’, we also know a couple of trans (transgender) – one is female from Denmark, born male; and the other is male, born female, who is happily married to a female.

              So as I previously said “my perception of gay’s rights is going to be somewhat different to yours”; although to be grammatically correct I should say “my perception of LGBT rights is going to be somewhat different to yours”.

              Are your views based on fear or prejudice, if the former then wouldn’t a lesbian sharing a public toilet with you be as much as a threat as a Transgender?

              Also, with your views you would feel very uncomfortable if you ever toured France on holiday (vacation), like we’ve done for decades.  Some of the towns we’ve visited in France on holiday (vacation) have unisex public toilets, and some of those have included urinals so that the women have to walk pass the urinals to get to the cubicles.

              In other towns we’ve visited in France public toilets have been open air single cubicles in the street with no door, so the user (male or female) gets little privacy from passing pedestrians. 

              And of course the pièce de résistance has to be the open air urinals in the streets of Paris, overlooking the river:  https://youtu.be/LCiY9VGd90w

            2. Ken Burgess profile image75
              Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              Funny how some people work their conversations that way, isn't it?

              1. Nathanville profile image92
                Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                What way?

                1. Ken Burgess profile image75
                  Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Creating an association that doesn't exist.

                  Shifting the meaning, in this case, for example, having an issue with Trans being allowed in women's bathrooms/showers... and you adding in response "our family has close ties with the LGBT community; some of our closest friends, male & female are gay "

                  What you did, is lump the person's distrust/dislike of men (transgenders) being allowed in women's bathrooms into the whole LGBTQ community and shifting the focus to gays in particular.

                  In essence shifting the topic from having an issue with men who want to pretend to be women, to having issue with all LGBTQ issues and gays in particular.

                  And it happens all the time, with all sorts of issues, I'm sure I'm guilty of it myself, but some make a habit of it.

                  1. Nathanville profile image92
                    Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    What is a “person’s distrust/dislike of a transgender women (who used to be a men) from being allowed in women’s public toilets" if it isn’t an LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) issue?

    2. tsmog profile image84
      tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      What a labyrinth!! That is so with anything gender-related today, right? There firstly is the confusion about the interchangeability of gender and sex. Those two are two distinctly different things. My observation is transgenders are more sensitive to that.

      Quickly, sex is biologically determined by chromosomes. Gender is directly determined by the 'self'. And, then comes along sexual orientation to add confusion. As said a labyrinth, right? And, it is just the beginning. 

      If open to discovery or at least seeking an understanding of gender as it has evolved try the following website. It is Gender Spectrum at the following link.
      https://genderspectrum.org/articles/und … ing-gender 

      Yet, that could be considered a distraction, deflection, or a queue to my position. Any of those would be presumptuous.

      Seeking more is the discovery of what the law firm posted regarding Josh Alexander's case at their site. It becomes apparent with reading it is more of a political stance than about his freedoms or rights specifically religion and expression, IMO. Maybe not? Or, Josh Alexander is the catalyst for something bigger?

      https://libertycoalitioncanada.com/libe … -v-rccdsb/

      To support that is a Fox Article stating that his lawyer was suspended for opposing transgender ideology. An interesting read giving insight into the case of Josh Alexander and the dilemma.

      Attorney for teen suspended after opposing trans ideology says religious freedom 'essentially dead' in Canada
      https://www.foxnews.com/world/attorney- … ead-canada

      And, could it all boil down to secularism vs Religion? Is Satan using a new tool perhaps? To give insight is the article, Why Was a Canadian Student Expelled From Catholic School for Opposing Transgender Bathroom Policy? by the National Catholic Register. This is the best article of many explaining what happened with Josh Alexander in my view.
      https://www.ncregister.com/news/why-was … oom-policy

      The following is a quote from it;
      "We are living in a time of militant secularism throughout the Western world. The de-Christianization of the West has resulted in nihilism or moral anarchy,” he said. “Unless churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. fight back, they will have to bend to the secular agenda, and if that happens there is no reason to stay in business.”

      So, is there something on the horizon that is obscured by whose rights are greater? Gender vs. Religion? Could it be nature vs nurture at issue? I don't know, but I do know it is a labyrinth.

      1. GA Anderson profile image89
        GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I don't think it is a labyrinth, and that it is being made into one is the point of the OP.

        In common usage—pre-issue, sex, and gender mean the same thing. Scientifically (physical science) they are the same thing. Factually and societally they have been the same thing. There was no confusion, no labyrinth of understanding to solve.

        Gender Identity has become a common understanding of feelings about gender, not a new definition of gender. Even that use implies a reference to sex: 'I feel like a man' Or 'I don't feel like a man'. It is the new insistence that man doesn't mean male that creates the resistance.

        In essence, it's like saying 2+2 no longer equals four because I don't feel like it does.

        That is a hard conservative perspective that I think has room for a little liberal tolerance of difference. I would say there is a general acceptance among most conservatives of the gender identity and transgender issues. It is the demand that a non-norm (2+2 does not equal four) become the new norm because the new norm folks say so that upsets reasonable folks.

        GA

        1. tsmog profile image84
          tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          A Pew Research study in June of 2022 shares 60% of 'All Americans' say gender is determined by the sex assigned at birth. For Republican/lean Republicans it is 86% and for Democrat/lean Democrats it is 38%.

          Further along, it shares that 43% say that societal views on gender identity are changing too quickly. 26% is not quick enough. And, 28% is about right. Rep/Rep lean is at 70% too quickly. Dem/Dem lean 21% too quickly.   

          To me, that means it is not something exclusive to conservatives.

          The study is titled; Americans’ Complex Views on Gender Identity and Transgender Issues. I read here and there at some of the many graphics that perked up my curiosity.
          https://www.pewresearch.org/social-tren … er-issues/

          To me, that study may offer 'a little' on why I think it is a labyrinth along with all the research I have done recently. It is not just an issue of language, it is the fact it is here to stay and most certainly is in public view.

          It is about the transitional process that will take over who knows what time span within the greater society including governing and the courts. And, it is not exclusive to the U.S. Examples to consider for the transitioning process are race and ethnicity, feminism, and sexual orientation. One could say unlike homosexuality which took, what, centuries to come out of the closet becoming acceptable(?), gender identity leaped through the door. Ta-da . . . I'm here, look at me.

          Besides, only 1.6 million of people in the U.S. age 13+ identify as transgender. If it weren't for the bathroom issue no one would give a crap. Does this speak to the tyranny of the minority? Maybe the current situation is only one big filibuster in the social sense.

          For info on How Many Adults and Youth Identify as Transgender in the United States? (that was the article title) go to the following link. There are demographics presented even by the states. It is from UCLA Williams Institute.
          https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ … ed-states/

          1. GA Anderson profile image89
            GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Your points are all valid things that are part of the issue.

            Your Pew data shows the issue as I see it: 9 of 10 conservatives agree there are only two genders but only 4 of 10 liberals do. The issue might not be exclusive to conservatives, but with those numbers, it is primarily a conservative issue.

            The thought that this is not a 'language' issue also agrees with my perspective. As does 'it' is here to stay and it is and will be a very public issue—until the public accepts that gender identity and transgender issues are real and valid.

            That will not happen as long as the minority of the issue demands that the majority accept their truths as real truths. They are not. Reasonable people reject that and unreasonable people will fight it to the death (metaphorically)

            The example of the OP is an illustration of the effect of the minority's demand and the church's response. Consider the simplicity of the example: a classroom open discussion on the subject draws penalties for saying something that is true because other participants don't want to hear it.* 
            *with the caveat that I don't know how intense the 2-gender guy was in the discussion

            GA

            1. IslandBites profile image89
              IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              a classroom open discussion on the subject draws penalties for saying something that is true because other participants don't want to hear it.*
              *with the caveat that I don't know how intense the 2-gender guy was in the discussion


              I decided not to comment on this topic before because I'll be wasting my time.

              But, for what is worth... Since more than one seem to think "saying there are only two genders" was the only thing that happened, I'll add some context.

              From what I read from multiple sources, the kid was previously suspended multiple times at a previous school. He enrolled at the Catholic School and a few months in, he was suspended because he decided to organize a protest online and outside school, eventhough he was made aware of the consecuenses. He was told by his principal that he was allowed to return to school only if he stopped using the "dead name," or given name, of transgender students and excluded himself from classes with two transgender students. He didnt. And he went back twice to those classes so they suspended him again and excluded him twice. The first day of the new semester, he went back to classs and was excorted out and arrested for trespassing.

              (Also, it is a public-funded school.)

              1. GA Anderson profile image89
                GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                You shouldn't have hesitated, you might have helped sharpen the focus. It was never about religion—other than as a barometer showing the depth of the issue's tentacles, and it was never about Alexander's specific actions. Each comment included caveats saying that.

                I was aware of much of the context you provided. I'm not defending the guy, and my criticism of the school's decision is based on their statements. But even that is secondary to the point of the OP: the damage this issue is causing.  My misstep was using a religion-involved example. As you have seen, the point I intended wasn't the direction the thread tried to take.

                If the nation was not seeing their leaders and authoritative figures arguing about how many genders there are, and instead heard them talking about choosing to live as another gender, this issue would have received a lot more reasonable consideration and the OP example most likely would not have happened as it did.

                It is almost a common criticism of conservatives that they don't believe in science, or don't follow the science of things. In this case, hard science is on their side. Yet, over half of those doing the criticizing (with very negative connotations) won't accept the hard science of this issue.

                Imagine a religious Republican conservative being asked to deny the reality of biology before they consider accepting that others want to live their life as a non-biological gender.

                GA

            2. tsmog profile image84
              tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              I get where you are coming from, though I may differ in view with some points. No need to go there except I think you are saying the Catholic Church responded on the issue. It was the agency of being a school under Canadian law. It doesn't matter if it was Catholic or not. The same with bullying.

              Canadian law specifically the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Link following. Also, below that link is a school districts policy regarding gender identity for an example of how they handle it.

              Policy on preventing discrimination because of gender identity and gender expression from the Ontario Human Right Commission. Section 13.4 is Washroom and Change Rooms.

              https://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preven … rimination

              Avon Maitland District School Board - Administrative Procedure 398: Gender Identity.

              Appendix C is guidelines for students. It states; “Under the Ontario Human Rights Code, all students have a right to safe restroom facilities and the right to use a washroom that corresponds to their chosen gender identity, regardless of the student’s sex assigned at birth. Requests for accommodation may include the use of one, or both gendered washrooms, or the use of a private all-gender single stall washroom. Where possible, schools will provide an easily accessible all-gender single stall washroom for use by a student who requests accommodation for increased privacy. The use of a single stall washroom should always be a matter of choice requested through the accommodation process (Form 398A: Student Request for Accommodation Form).

              https://www.amdsb.ca/apps/pages/index.j … ID=1380582

              With bullying from Public Safety Canada of the Government of Canada;

              "What is Bullying?

              Bullying is characterized by acts of intentional harm, repeated over-time, in a relationship where an imbalance of power exists. It includes physical actions (punching, kicking, biting), verbal actions (threats, name calling, insults, racial or sexual comments), and social exclusion Footnote 1 (spreading rumours, ignoring, gossiping, excluding) (Pepler & Craig, 2000; Ma, Stewin & Mah, 2001). Boys tend to be more likely to bully and be bullied, usually in the form of a physical attack and exhibition of aggressive behaviour. Alternatively, girls appear to be more prone to indirect bullying in the form of social isolation, slandering and the spreading of rumours (Marcel T. Van der Wal, et al., 2003).

              https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrc … n.aspx#a01

              I would note at this time the intentional refusal by Josh Alexander to not use the preferred name of the trans students instead using the 'Dead Name' just might fall under bullying.

              For the school, they had a conundrum as I see it. The law of the land vs. the law of God.

              1. IslandBites profile image89
                IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                I agree.

                they had a conundrum as I see it. The law of the land vs. the law of God.

                "Love the Lord your God with all your heart...love your neighbor as yourself.There is no commandment greater than these.”

                But I dont think it was that hard. They did. Others "christians" should follow them too.

            3. Valeant profile image86
              Valeantposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              'Your Pew data shows the issue as I see it: 9 of 10 conservatives agree there are only two genders but only 4 of 10 liberals do.'

              I think the data was misrepresented here a bit.  Liberals can agree on two genders, but disagree that gender identity has to match the sex assigned at birth.

              1. wilderness profile image93
                wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                I would agree, with the caveat that many liberals feel there are more than two genders.  The plethora of terminology to describe them gives testament to that.

                But, I think, the biggest problem is that liberals want to treat "gender" as "sex" and conservatives will not accept that.  Worse, liberals want to think that gender is changeable at will and therefore sex also is; the result is that liberals demand everyone accept one pretending to be the sex they are not and conservatives will absolutely NOT accept that.

                1. Valeant profile image86
                  Valeantposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  I can agree with this entire statement.  If liberals could be clear that they accept someone's gender choices, while respecting the norms of sex (such as sport, gender neutral bathroom options for trans) maybe that would be the middle ground that the country could arrive at.

                  1. wilderness profile image93
                    wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    I suspect it would come very close.  Not perfect (what compromise ever is?) but close.

      2. Nathanville profile image92
        Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Picking up on the quote, which you reference:

        "We are living in a time of militant secularism throughout the Western world. The de-Christianization of the West has resulted in nihilism or moral anarchy,” he said. “Unless churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. fight back, they will have to bend to the secular agenda, and if that happens there is no reason to stay in business.”

        That’s very much what the Church of England has become since the 1960s e.g. over the decades since the 1960s it’s become very adept at bending to the secular agenda; the most recent being the Church of England voting on the 9th Feb 2023 to bless ‘same sex couples’ in church.

  2. Readmikenow profile image93
    Readmikenowposted 15 months ago

    Never did I think I would see a day when a generation of people were confused on to what is and is not a man and a woman.

    Women cannot become men and men cannot become women
    The only thing that can be done, and has been done, is a person alters their body via chemical/surgery and dresses to provide an illusion of being the opposite sex.
    Psychological fantasy does not change biological reality.
    These are facts and they are indisputable.

    It takes courage to tell the truth.  Obviously this student had such courage.  It is a shame he has to be in a school with an administration afraid of facts, truth and reality.  They are truly cowards of the highest degree.

    1. Ken Burgess profile image75
      Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      My friend, "the West" is living in a Post-Truth world.

      That is the simplest way for me to say it.

      The "enlightened" state "the West" is in regarding being all inclusive regarding if a person feels they are an opposite sex, or a cat, or a victim, or whatever they feel at that time, is, in fact, no matter how well dressed up by psychology or sociology, an acceptance of the insane as normal.

  3. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 15 months ago

    If I see a biological male exposing his manhood to my granddaughters in a women's restroom, he may not walk out intact!

    1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
      Coltonlarsen1975posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      And a mentally ill, abused or otherwise distraught girl lashing out at your granddaughter in that unmonitored bathroom???? Do you at all think the issue is with monitoring bathrooms rather than demonizing trans people???  Hmmm.  Or is it just easier to believe trans people are inherently predisposed to aberrant behaviors??

      1. abwilliams profile image67
        abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Deleted

        1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
          Coltonlarsen1975posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Yeah and being hetero gives you the stamp of moral approval??? No worries there. Heteros never do anything wrong in a bathroom LOL

          https://www.washingtonblade.com/2022/01 … -straight/

          https://wtop.com/loudoun-county/2021/10 … -bathroom/

          Looks like we've got a hetero bathroom problem

          Hmm maybe put  cameras in the bathroom ?  Seems like a Republican solution.

          1. abwilliams profile image67
            abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Alrighty then, you are obviously the one with a problem, looking for trouble and I am not biting.
            This conversation is over.

            1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
              Coltonlarsen1975posted 15 months agoin reply to this

              Id  say your comment back is pretty rude. You assume I have a problem? What is my problem? I presented you with the reality of the bathroom situation. Fine if you choose to ignore it because you don't have an answer. This forum is so conservative you don't need to fear a ban. When you report me, I'm sure your moderator will help you out by banning me. But   I don't understand the labeling and fear of trans people. Pretty judgemental to me and ignores all the stuff going on in bathrooms perpetrated by straight people.

              Watch for the ban.....

  4. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 15 months ago

    Whatever that may make me or however I may come across...to the more-enlightened crowd, I really don't give a damn!!

  5. tsmog profile image84
    tsmogposted 15 months ago

    Interesting thread, though I get lost on some of the points at times. At this point, the dialogue is focused on transgender and the importance of restrooms/bathroom/change room rights. To me, that means to some extent transgender is at least acknowledged with a perhaps accepted.

    In my view, transgenders should use their biological restrooms/change rooms as to me it won't harm their personal psychology any more than hurting the psychology of the opposite sex established restroom/change room. In other words the majority rules.

    I also have an inclination of less a trusting attitude toward one’s sexuality that may be strongly influenced by nature’s drive to romantic attraction, e.g. hormones and etc contrast with a confused teen or a nefarious actor. However, what about a lesbian in a woman’s restroom or changing room? In other words seeing is believing in its own right in a sense. Perplexing . . . especially for teens and early twenties.

    And, with sports athletes, they should compete in their biological sex, but I feel that should be established by chromosomes due to the fact, yes, there is intersex. Yet, what do I know? I have not reasoned all the perspectives of that yet.

    Interestingly enough there are at birth sex assignments as high as 1 in 2000. Having read this and that I can understand how a mistake could be made with that when considering the physical and neurobiological followed by nurturing and socializing over who knows what time span.

    How common is intersex?
    https://isna.org/faq/frequency/

    Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity in the Household Pulse Survey (US Census survey)
    https://www.census.gov/library/visualiz … ntity.html

    1. Ken Burgess profile image75
      Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Actually GA has brought something similar up in the past, confirming my belief, we are embracing the insane as sane.

      The part that talks about people identifying as water, fictional beings, etc... I'm fairly certain such stuff was how they defined insane years ago.

      https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/350 … rimination

      1. tsmog profile image84
        tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        (A little wandering . . . forgive the length)

        Thanks for the link, Ken! That demonstrates on and on it goes and will for many years to come. From that and this thread it is obvious to me some don’t get there are three sexes – male, female, and intersex. Intersex must be recognized as it leads to sex assignment at birth due to abnormalities or ambiguous genitalia.

        That assignment is done with surgery. In other words, it is not God making the decision of what sex the child is, it is a medical team hopefully including the parents. Years ago they did not include the parents. And, today’s discussion is headed toward not doing a sex assignment at birth instead allowing it to exist as is allowing the individual to make the choice later in life. I don’t agree with that sentiment at this time. 

        SEX ASSIGNED AT BIRTH by Columbia Law Review
        https://columbialawreview.org/content/s … -at-birth/

        Neonatal Sex Assignment in Disorders of Sex Development: A Philosophical Introspection by National Library of Medicine
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5593477/

        And, yes, male and female are one of many classifications of gender, but they still fall into ‘Today’s’ definition (Science & Social) that gender is an internal realization of the ‘Self’, not a binary biological assignment given at birth, though approximately 88% of the time they match. That is why it gets confusing in dialogue, at least for me. The ‘Self’ leads to identity, which is another topic for later.

        With sources saying there are this many genders, and another source saying there are this many, I have given up on what’s right. I have concluded for myself there are four; cisgender – male and female coordinated with sex at birth, transgender, and Gender non-conforming or nonbinary.

        The latter is all the others thrown into one basket as you pointed out there are so many. Though some are far obscure to the point of ridiculous or as you said, “insane”, e.g. furries. I think governments are in that mindset too since for many states today’s forms there is an ‘X’ designation along with male and female. That is true with driver’s licenses today too.

        As for me, the time period the OP you linked to is when I began researching and reading about transgender leading to other tangents like learning about intersex and doctor/medical teams making the determination of male or female at birth. And, seeking to understand the puzzle while trying to assimilate what I acknowledge may lead to acceptance within my belief system, which is more conservative than liberal.

        At this time, the bottom line for me is chromosomes with their science are the only true way to determine binary sex – male and female, even though ambiguous genitalia may confound that. In other words, the visible genitalia does not match the chromosomes, which does happen. Also, all the complexities of chromosomes such as being an ‘XXXY’ or things like Klinefelter syndrome (XXY).

        And, a verse from the Bible; “For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (Matthew 19:12), gave me pause, still today.

        1. Ken Burgess profile image75
          Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Yes, I recall a thread you started on the matter years back.

          I remember I engaged you quite a bit in it, as I also researched the matter regarding surgeries that were conducted on those Intersex newborns and or those who were clipped a bit too much and then the change was made.

          I remember one such child kept identifying as a boy, despite having the surgery as a newborn, despite being brought up a girl, and committed suicide around 30, if I recall correctly.

          In the case of Transgender/Transexual, I think a fair way to settle it, would be to protect women in their "safe spaces", however, anyone who has gone so far as to have surgery to transition from one sex to another, should be identified as that sex and allowed access to those "safe spaces".

          If not, then as a society we are placing a Trans' needs above a woman's needs.  We are putting Trans' feelings of being discriminated against ahead of women's rights to safety from assault in a "safe space".

          Perhaps this is merely the social steps being taken until we reach the point where there is no male or female showers, bathrooms, sports or sex identifiers at all.  That would be true equality.

          1. IslandBites profile image89
            IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            https://hubstatic.com/16432001.jpg

          2. tsmog profile image84
            tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            I am sure you saw further back in the thread I gave my position on bathrooms being they should follow biological sex natural or assigned. For me, it is a common courtesy to do so, and is logical.

            "If not, then as a society we are placing a Trans' needs above a woman's needs.  We are putting Trans' feelings of being discriminated against ahead of women's rights to safety from assault in a "safe space".

            That statement falls in line with my thinking pretty much. In my statement earlier the argument of the psychological harm a trans has using their biological/assigned sex's bathroom is not greater than the matching sex and gender person's psychological harm by their bathroom being intruded/invaded upon by a trans. So, I go with the majority rules.

            With that said, while I hope I made sense, the safe space stuff to me has credence with psychological harm while I doubt seriously at this time the actuality of rape taking place by a trans is no greater than an actual male sex with matching gender.

            In other words, the threat with its perceptions (Psychological harm) is greater than its actual occurrence. However, I am not saying to not consider it as there is evidence of that occurring in prisons. That leads to a greater discussion of sex, sexuality, and gender. All three of those are real. The puzzle is a puzzle.   

            I am amazed at where society(s) are headed today throughout the world, especially with the rapid pace of science with all its disciplines and technology too. As an analogy and with jest, I still don't accept NHRA Pro Stock transitioned from tunnel rams with 4-barrel carburetors and hood scoops to fuel injection with a throttle body without hood scoops. It just ain't right!

            1. Sharlee01 profile image89
              Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

              So well said...

  6. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 15 months ago

    ....and bats coming through the window, that would be one scary bathroom!!

  7. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 15 months ago

    I don't report people, I am actually looking forward to seeing what subjects you will be writing about here at HP, but this particular conversation is over. Take care!

  8. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 15 months ago

    It is interesting where slippery slopes lead to.
    There will always be anomalies, but that's what they are. Anomalies don't typically get their own place of prominence, but that's where we are today.

    1. tsmog profile image84
      tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Agreed! But, the task is civil rights that should be afforded to them, which is contentious, right? For me, historically, that began with the movement of women in essence demanding the right to vote. In other words, the war of sex/gender. What do you think?

      1. abwilliams profile image67
        abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I think that women winning the right to vote has nothing to do with and should not enter a conversation regarding a more powerful man {aka: biological male} entering into their {biological females} safe spaces, each and every one...and then being asked to accept it, otherwise, they are the one with a problem.

        1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
          Coltonlarsen1975posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          How do you feel safe with any strangers in a bathroom? I mean a real sicko could be in the next stall

        2. tsmog profile image84
          tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I said nothing about bathroom rights did I? I said civil rights. Bathrooms are not a civil right in my mind. It is a social courtesy, though I have used a lady's bathroom once or twice in my life span due to urgency and lack of people around.  If you have been following the thread then you saw my statement regarding bathrooms/restrooms/change rooms. It is not unlike yours.

          1. abwilliams profile image67
            abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            There was a part two to my comment, sorry I didn't get it posted quickly enough.

            Also, the forum topic mentions a "bathroom".

        3. abwilliams profile image67
          abwilliamsposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I have heard this argument, however. Feminists brought us to this point and now they are silent!
          I am not, nor have I ever been a feminist, although I have mentioned the feminist anthem, "I Am Woman Hear Me Roar", quite a bit, here of late. smile

          1. tsmog profile image84
            tsmogposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            smile

  9. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 15 months ago

    Ahhh, invoking King Solomon. Wise. wink

    1. Nathanville profile image92
      Nathanvilleposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Thanks smile

  10. AliciaC profile image92
    AliciaCposted 15 months ago

    I believe that trans people should be respected and given as many rights as possible. That being said, there are some awkward problems that need to be solved. One is which bathroom to use. The other is which category of athletic event to enter.

    1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
      Coltonlarsen1975posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Not sure what you mean? Give trans people "as many rights as possible' why shouldn't they have the rights that all humans here in our country enjoy?? And if s person is fully transitioned what problem with the bathroom needs to be solved?  The bathroom issue baffles me.

      1. AliciaC profile image92
        AliciaCposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        If the person has had gender affirmation surgery and special hormonal treatment, that may negate the problems. Variety exists depending on the age of the person, the time when they decided to transition to another gender, and how extensive their surgery and medical treatment was, however. It also depends on the length of their hormonal treatment.

        The article below indicates that a transgendered women may retain some of her extra strength from when she was a male for at least three years. More research is necessary to explore the details.

        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/

        1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
          Coltonlarsen1975posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I still don't understand what problems you are speaking to?  That a recently transitioned male to female retains strength?  That's a bathroom threat? What about these buff females that workout everyday?  Seriously. I'm lost here. In reality what's to stop any man with bad intentions from entering a women's bathroomat any time. This seems to be more about the Republican Party painting trans people as sub human, violent, sexually deviant aberrations  that should be feared.  As if plenty of straight people don't fit that description.

          1. AliciaC profile image92
            AliciaCposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            I think it depends on the setup of the bathroom. If everyone uses a cubicle, I don’t see a problem. Females, males, and people in the process of transforming from one gender to another can urinate or defecate in private, as they do at home in many countries.

            People changing from one gender are not “subhuman” but in transition. For some people, the transition process is a lengthy one.

            Athletic achievements that depend on gender are more complicated. Males competing in female events when they still have some of their previous strength is unfair. Females competing in male events when they haven’t yet built enough muscle strength to be an equal competitor is also unfair.

            1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
              Coltonlarsen1975posted 14 months agoin reply to this

              If it's a female restroom then there are obviously not urinals.  I just can't wrap my head around the bathroom concern. If you're in a stall and a transitioned individual is on another, where is the issue??  It's pretty much the set up we have now, isn't it?

              1. AliciaC profile image92
                AliciaCposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                I was thinking about male bathrooms and people transitioning into males as well.

                1. Coltonlarsen1975 profile image61
                  Coltonlarsen1975posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                  What's your concern?

                  1. AliciaC profile image92
                    AliciaCposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                    I want people to be protected as much as possible while they are transitioning.

                    I also want athletic competitions to be fair.

  11. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 14 months ago

    Just curious, can the name of Jesus Christ be introduced in multi-faith gatherings which include Muslims? Are Jewish Rabbis present?
    Don't read any more into the question posed than what it is, the scenario piqued my curiosity.
    Thanks.

    1. Nathanville profile image92
      Nathanvilleposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Yes:  The Muslim faith, like the Jewish faith, only recognises the ‘old testament’, not the ‘new testament’; and yes the multi-faith church represents the Jewish faith as well.  The presentation I and my family were invited to, had both a Muslim leader and a Jewish leader giving a joint presentation, to stress that ‘all’ believe in the same ‘creator’; with their presentation highlighting what both religions have in common.  For clarity, the Muslim faith just sees the messiah as another prophet, not as the son of the ‘father in heaven’.

      Here’s a short video clip of a multi faith Chaplaincy in Birmingham, which may answer some of your questions:  https://youtu.be/jy7T7gehee0

      Multi-faith Britain (this short video might give further clarity to your questions):  https://youtu.be/bZTVW6Y83Bs

 
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