What are your thoughts on boys showering with girls at school?
You've probably seen the reports stating that the "Director of Education has ordered a suburban Chicago school to allow a boy who claims to be a girl into the girls’ locker room, whether or not the girls or their parents like it." Other states will soon be facing the same issue.
Breibart reports, "The school offered this singular student a special area for changing clothes and using the restroom. But the boy and his lawyer instead demanded that school officials submit to his claim that he is female and so can use the girls’ (shower) facilities."
What are your thoughts?The student is a girl. Any document insisting on referring to her as "he" is transphobic.
And unless this school is still in the dark ages, the girls have separate shower stalls to use. Group showering for adolescents was always a terrible idea no matter what genitals they have. Who wants to group shower while menstruating, or sharing a class with bullies etc. So last century.The locker room is a common area where students change into their clothes. The student filed suit after being told by the district to change behind a curtain. This was deemed discrimination.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/us/il … .html?_r=0
Wow. Transphobic. I had to look that one up.psycheskinner,
You make an excellent point about the whole group shower thing.
In fact I believe it is one of the reasons why many kids dislike PE in school.
When I was in Jr. high and high school in the Midwest during the 70s us guys were forced to have swim class in the nude.
Showers were taken in a large open room with shower heads. No stalls.
It was never explained to us why it was that way. The girls got to wear swimsuits for their PE swim days.
In many "old school" men's restrooms were a huge stainless steel fountain like apparatus where men take their place in a circle and urinate. In other restrooms they had long troughs where men stand side by side urinating.
A urinal with walls on both sides was a rare thing.
Privacy while using the restroom/taking a shower is something every boy & girl would welcome.
Having said that as long as the boy (anatomically has male genitals) he should probably use the boys locker room. I suspect one of the reasons why he wants to be in the girls locker room is for his own protection.
An openly transgendered male is likely to be taunted and physically abused by his male counterparts. Oftentimes there is a lot of "hazing" supposedly in the name of "fun" that takes place in the boys locker room.
Plain and simple today we'd call it "bullying"!
Locker room bullying is seldom reported due to it's often embarrassing nature.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000! Pre-adolescent & adolescent boys are the cruelest. During such periods, the macho mystique kicks into ......VERY HIGH GEAR. Boys at that time want to prove their masculinity by any means necessary........
Funny, you should mention that a lot of this indignity with the lack of privacy is part of the basic training program for military services.
As part of your training to embrace conformity, your sense of individuality, and privacy is a part of that, is repressed.
Back in the day, we had mandatory PE during junior high school, when it became an electorate and I had a choice between it and ROTC, I picked the latter.
When I think that during the Age of Aquarius, I was walking around the high school in an Army Zoot Suit during the height of the Viet Nam War to get out of gym class, I am still taken aback.
I have a natural bugaboo about anything related public facilities like that, showers, restrooms, etc.
Frankly, I'm appalled. I'm sure the child has not gone through transgender surgery. Boys and girls should have separate showers when they're school age. I don't believe in promoting sex for teens, nor exposing themselves - no matter what gender they wish they are.
OMG, I never thought I'd have this issue brought before me. I feel for parents who still have school-aged children.
When I was in high school, I wouldn't shower after gym class (call me gross if you want) because I was too shy to be naked in front of other people.
Gender is not a simple matter of mindset when kids are that age; it's a physical prominence. I really don't relate to those who think they're boys stuck in girls' bodies and vice-versa. I was a tom-boy when I was a kid, but I still knew I was a girl - and liked it.
We all have to concede to society to a certain point. Wait until the kid is not a kid. Don't thrust his/her dilemma on the rest of the class.
I'm so glad I was born in the '50s!I am with you here! I was a tomboy too and shy to shower with others but did just as quickly as I could! I would simply refuse if they sent a girl with a penis in!!! I agree it should all go to adulthood to be forced on anyone! We can't be there to protect them and they have the right to be safe! What if a rapist wants to take a shower with them? What's the difference and where does it stop? I am sick of sob stories. Grow up! Keep your sex to yourself, I say! Why do we all have to know about it?
So send her to the boys locker room to get beat up, harassed, and possibly sexually assaulted because you can't relate to her problems?
So you won the luck of the draw and got a body that matches who you feel you are deep inside; it doesn't mean you get to judge people born into the nightmare of having the wrong outside.I say what about my rights? We all have them you know. If "they" are so worried about everyone's rights then all these confused or mistakenly made people need a shower of their own. Why should a whole class of young females suffer because of one? (Oh, I know, let's just teach them all things are alright when everything in them teaches them better until they are force fed unnatural must be a part of their lives.)
It is hard enough trying to teach innocent children to be aware of pedifiles but then we have to be selective and teach them all about the minority rights. We have a 9 year old in the news sent to the principals office for writing I love you to a little girl and that is called sexual harassment! What more can we do to really screw them up; huh?I know you wish it were, but discrimination isn't a right. Your religious beliefs don't supersede the rights of others. Your freedom of religion ends where your voice and body do; you don't get to force others to follow your beliefs or get to call it discrimination when you don't get to.
I get that you don't believe in biology because your religious beliefs are counter to it, but our culture recognizes the brain as the seat of human consciousness.
The vast majority of pedophiles are cisgender, heterosexual males so bringing up pedophiles in the discussion makes zero sense. It makes it clear you just want to lash out at people different from yourself when you start bringing up random horrible stuff that's unrelated. Also, the reason schools can't teach young children about avoiding pedophiles is that Conservative Evangelical Christians block the sex education classes in which it's taught.
If it had been a little girl who'd written "I love you" to another little girl, you'd probably be all about punishing her for sexual harassment. And what school did you go to where writing notes to each other was allowed?Biological gender is based on physical attributes, not mindset or "misplacement". In the case of our youth showering in public, the lower genitals determine which room you belong in. Why traumatize our children and freak them out at a young age? Those who are struggling with the bodies God gave them have an inner struggle. Pretending - or wishing - you're something you're not should not be thrust upon impressionable children.
Biological sex should prevail in instances where public nudity is a factor. Or do what I did and forego the shower all together.Or maybe the girls could be taught basic polite behavior such as that it's rude and wildly inappropriate to be looking at the other girls parts? I'm more disturbed by the idea of girls staring at each other's genitalia in the showers than about them seeing something they don't like when they participate in such inappropriate behavior.
Be real, Kylyssa. Who doesn't look at other girls - or guys? We live in a competitive world. Girls check out girls and guys check out guys. That's how we measure ourselves. It doesn't make sense, but it's a fact of life, especially when you're at the age of budding from a girl to a woman. Some get there quicker than others.
What planet are you from?Not only that, Sha, but what about the obvious? Boys in middle school/junior high are at the age when they have barely any control over themselves in the genital area and so for a boy who is thinking he is a girl, and has a penis, and then walks into an area where girls are showering or changing, just lends itself to all sorts of issues ...
Faith, I guess the argument could be that female genitalia doesn't excite a guy who thinks he wants to be a woman. Nevertheless, penises belong on one side and vaginas on the other. Period, as it relates to this question.
I'm from earth and I never "checked out" other girls in the shower because it's rude and unethical. Somewhere around age five, my parents taught me to never purposely look at other kids' private parts, to wait until I was grown up and then only to look only with permission. I doubt other girls looked in my crotch when I was showering. Any girl caught looking probably would have been teased or called a lesbian until she changed schools.
I think most teen girls know it's wrong to peep on people dressing or showering, because, you know, they don't want to get peeped on themselves. They know you call the police if some pervert is looking in your windows and teenagers don't want to be thought of as perverts. These aren't toddlers being discussed.
My parents also taught me not to screw around in the shower wasting water. You wash, you rinse, and you get out.Then why can't we teach the boys the same thing? Why are they not held accountable for their actions? They shouldn't peep either. Why is it always the girls who must make accommodations and give up their privacy to accommodate boys?
Boys should also be told not to peep, too, but that doesn't mean the girl should have to go shower with them.
How do you stand on intersex kids? Should they have segregated showering facilities, too? If girls or boys peep on them in the shower (and they're more common than out transgender teens or children living openly transgender) they might see genitalia unlike their own.
What does religion have to do with it. I am sure many non-Christians have morals and what religion are people who try to push something like this on innocent children; speaking of a pedophile! So anyone who wants to can claim to be something like this to get in a room of unsuspecting children naked because for whatever reason they want to and think it is their right and who can prove what they are? We just believe anyone who comes along that gets off on this sort of thing?
It would not happen where I live I can tell you.This has nothing to do with religion. I don't think there's a religion in the world that promotes trangender. And most of society doesn't either. I don't know about you, but what Bruce Genner has done is hard to swallow. He's been a man for 60 years. Why change now? And why do people call him Caitlyn? He's Bruce for crying out loud! He's not even transgender'; he's transvestite for crying out loud. He's nothing more than a he/she with male genitals who prefers to wear women's clothing and makeup. He's not a she. He's a wannabe.
Why change now?
Because she felt as though she was trapped in the wrong body for 60 years, and finally had the courage to be her true self.
And why do people call him Caitlyn?
People call HER Caitlyn because that's her name. If you changed your name, and people insisted on calling you by your old name, wouldn't that annoy you?
He's Bruce for crying out loud!
He was Bruce. SHE is Caitlyn. Bruce no longer exists.
He's not even transgender'; he's transvestite for crying out loud.
Transgender is someone who wishes to change from the gender they were assigned at birth. Transvestite is someone who likes to dress in the clothing of the opposite gender, but doesn't necessarily want to change their gender. Caitlyn is transgender. She is transitioning/has transitioned from male to female.
He's nothing more than a he/she with male genitals who prefers to wear women's clothing and makeup.
Speculating about where a transgender person is in their transition, and focusing on what's going on between their legs, is offensive to most trans people. So is the term he/she. It's a slur, and it's hurtful.If he "feels" like he is a woman but was born (not "assigned") as a man, isn't that a mental health issue. He is well-known and so most men would know he is a man wanting to be a woman, but what about those who are not known and unsuspecting men are put in situations they did not ask for as far as thinking they are talking to a woman ...I can understand why a terrible reaction may result if they were not told the truth up front.
Most transgender people go through extensive mental health screenings before a doctor will help them transition, to ensure they are truly transgender, and not experiencing some sort of mental health issue. Typically, a transgender person will have experienced the feeling of being in the wrong body for as long as they can remember. At three years old, they may tell people to stop calling them their birth gender, because that's not what they are. This never changes for them. Imagine knowing, for certain, that you were assigned the wrong body, and were trapped in something alien to all your thoughts and feelings. It's a horrible thing.
Yes, it is a horrible thing, I would imagine, to be so confused about one's identity.
You seem to know a lot about transgender. Are you in the mental health field or transgender? I'm curious why do you use the word "assigned"? Is it more politically correct instead of "born"?
ThanksI'm neither a transgender person nor a mental health professional. I'm an artist who has lived in a variety of places, and known a variety of different types of people, including some who are transgender, agender, and gender fluid. As is the case with many things, these words are easier to understand when they're explained by dear friends who identify with them as part of their life experiences.
I used the word "assigned", because it seems to me that's what happens when a child is born. We look at his or her genitalia, and say boy or girl (assuming there are no anomalies). We respond to that child based on that assignment, rather than waiting to see how he or she develops. I think that's why so many people are confused by the idea of a transgender person. They focus on genitalia, rather than on the person as a whole.Thank you so much for sharing and explaining all of that, Lisa.
Transgender patients getting extensive mental and physical health examinations is not always the case. There are sites all over the internet that offer advice and coaching on what to say to a doctor in order to get cross-sex hormones. There is even an article here on HubPages which outlines how to get your hands on cross-sex hormones as quickly as possible.
Two of the options suggested in the HubPages article are to find a source that will sell hormones to you directly without a physician's prescription, and to find a doctor who will quickly rubber stamp your case with very few questions asked. Apparently these kinds of doctors are easy to find; just ask around online or among the trans community in your area and you will be given names of doctors who will give you the prescriptions you seek.
Also, the transgender lobby has pushed hard to mainstream the idea that all it takes to be trans is to simply feel it or think it. This is why so many young children are being transitioned. All a three- or four-year-old child has to do is say they are the opposite sex, and the current medical policy dictates that doctors must take the child at his or her word.
Why is it hard to swallow? How does Caitlyn Jenner existing as a woman affect your life in any real way?
I think your post is a perfect example of why she stayed a man for 60 years. It's hard to be who you really are when people like you demean her and dismiss her feelings. It is HER life and if she is happiest living it as a woman then who are you to crap all over that?
Your comment "He's nothing more than a he/she" makes me want to puke. Just sheer disrespect for someone coming out and making an incredibly difficult stand for who they are. Difficult because of people like you.
All I can say is that I hope future generations don't adopt this horrible attitude. A little acceptance and understanding goes a long way. Maybe you want to take some time to think about why some person you've never met deciding to live their life as a woman instead of a man makes you so hateful and upset.I do not have any direct knowledge of Bruce Jenner's sex life, but I believe he is probably an autogynephile, He fits the profile perfectly. Autogynephiles are a particular type of transgender "woman:" heterosexual males who become aroused at the thought of being a sexy, beautiful woman. These feelings may start out slowly at first but grow over time, as the fetish deepens. He might have started out trying on his wife's clothing (Jenner just recently admitted to wearing his daughters' underwear in secret until they caught him with a hidden camera) and over time the man wants or needs more and more to become aroused, until they eventually transition. These are men who usually transition later in life. They are the guys who had wives, families and normal boyhoods, and never gave any clues at all that they felt as though they were born with the "wrong body." They attempt to look as feminine as possible but even if they transition, they keep their penises because their penises are needed to have the kind of sex they want to have -- with women.
Autogynephiles were not effeminate boys when they were young. This is why their parents, children and friend are often shocked when they come out as women (usually the wife knows from bedroom exploits). These men might say that they "always" thought they were female even as little kids, but often they are just going along with the narrative that will qualify them for cross-sex hormones.
I have no problem with adults getting their kicks in the bedroom however they want, as long as their partner is mutually accepting. This does not affect me in any way,
But Bruce Jenner proclaiming to be a woman hurts women in general. He has reduced womanhood to a costume: breast implants, a long hairweave, high heels and a sparkly dress.
Women are being told that they do not matter; any old dude with a dick can be a woman as long as he has the right costume and a good surgeon, or simply makes an announcement that he is now a woman and will be using the women's locker room at the gym, despite having a beard and an erection. And if women don't want to undress in front of him and lesbians don't want to have sex with him, they are bigots. Men are telling women not to speak of menstruation, pregnancy or childbirth. Men are telling women that we should refer to ourselves as "uterus-havers" because the word "woman" or "female" could easily mean a person with a penis. Organizers of a women's festival made cupcakes decorated to look like vulvas, and the event was shut down by "women" with penises (men) who said that the event was transphobic and bigoted, and the cupcakes were "violence against them" because event organizers did not include cupcakes featuring penises. This was a WOMEN's festival. Men shut it down.
Women are being trivialized and silenced, and called bigots and hateful if we dare voice our objections. This is how Bruce Jenner claiming to be a woman affects me, despite the fact that I have never met him.You know nothing about his sex life but you're perfectly comfortable saying all that you just did about him. Mmmkay.
No idea what you're even talking about by saying that "pretending" to be a woman is offensive to women. This isn't a one-way street, there are plenty of female to male transgendered people, too. Yet it's only offensive to women? Why's that?My description of autogynephiles is about the condition in general and not any particular person. As I stated, I am speculating about Bruce Jenner, although it is true what he said about wearing his daughters' underwear. He told that story for the cameras and crowd at an event over the weekend, as if it was some sort of cute, funny, entertaining anecdote. I find the story disturbing. What father secretly wears his young daughter's underwear? As a young girl I wouldn't even have wanted my mother to wear my underwear. Why couldn't Jenner least try out his wife's underwear? At least she is an adult.
When it comes to females who attempt to become males, they are in a different position. In general, they are not trying to silence men; they are not demanding that men stop talking about fathering children or ejaculating. They are not demanding to be allowed into male organizations or to be given Federally funded prostate exams. Also, because, in general, men are accustomed to running the world and their lives the way they want, men are not all that worried about women trivializing them or taking their place in the world. Men do not feel they must let transitioned females into the boys' club, and know they probably will never have to, because the law traditionally sides with them.
While courts typically rule that women and girls must grin and bear it while biological males share their bathrooms and locker rooms, biological females who petition the courts to be allowed into men's locker rooms and bathrooms are typically turned down, as in the cases of Seamus Johnson and Gavin Grimm. While most women's colleges in the United States will admit anyone who "identifies" as (simply makes a claim to be) female, men's colleges have not been so generous, and will only consider allowing a transgender female-to-male into the school if they have gone through the legal process of changing their gender.
These are just a few examples of how the situations of female-to-male transgendered people are typically different. So basically, while the women and girls are told we must put up with men invading our private spaces, men are not required to put up with women in their spaces. And even of they were, they wouldn't care, because they already have the upper hand in society.
"And what school did you go to where writing notes to each other was allowed?"
It wasn't allowed when I went to school, but we still did it.
Asking can that not also happen in the girls the locker room - harassed and beaten up? That will be a possible problem too won't it? That is not gender specific.
Me too, Sha. I was terribly shy in school and hated PE because we were to shower or even just change clothes into our PE outfit. In high school, I was so relieved when I didn't have to take PE as they signed me up for Chorus for four years ...what a relief. Well, actually, it is sad because PE is a good thing, but I did not want to get undressed in front of others, much less shower. I am thinking of my grandchildren now, and that they may be forced to do this which I believe violates their rights too. I would never want my small granddaughter to go to a public restroom and then a man walk in the women's restroom just because in his mind he thinks he is a woman. That would surely traumatize all girls and women in the restroom.
Well, this is a tough one to address. I have mixed feelings on this. I have not read anything on the issue. Do the parents have documentation from the boy's physician or psychologist on this that the boy should be treated as a girl and allowed to use girl facilities?
If there is medical and psychological evidence that a boy should be treated as a girl in schools, then special consideration should be given to the case. On the other hand, it involves the rights and feelings of the girls and their parents who apparently have no say in the issue.Hello Peg! I have written a 'letter' to you some may say is a rant as a Hub though I feel is proactive. Controversial maybe? I dun'no. It's focus is the larger issue in my mind with the label - different being gender identity, and deviance. It is written from personal experience with the larger issue.
If interested it will be published today, probably will not pass the QAP, and I will feature at my profile for access. I am polishing it now (1:27AM PST) As we know I cannot promote a hub here. So, I will share later here a reply when done and published as soon as I post. If I can't feature it I will let you know. With your permission I will send via your Profile email the link?
Thanks for this opportunity. I hope it will offer a view from personal experience with a perspective to considerI've read all the comments in this discussion and appreciate them all. This is definitely a difficult issue and probably impossible to find a solution that will please everyone. I have only one thing to say regarding this and many of the other tough issues that face parents, educational institutions, and sports programs, and all the rest: I know this isn't the answer to everyone's dilemma, but I am so glad I home schooled my daughter.
Peg, this is ridiculous, I consider myself progressive in most matters, but this has gone too far. If you are not anatomically female, you don't get to use the womens' restroom facilities, period, and that goes for the men and their facilities as well.
So, I may be a little dated but I have been hearing about coed shower facilities at colleges and universities. These may well all be consenting adults, but I wouldn't send my little princess into that zoo.I would pull my daughters out of that school. As usual political correctness trumps common sense.
I know theirs alot of gays and lesbians. They choose to be that way and that's fine. But it doesn't mean they can take showers with opposite sexs; just because they want to be one of them. I don't think they should allow that for many reasons.
I feel like if they allow that other kids are gonna think it's okay. When really it's not.
Ditto what psycheskinner said about misgendering (where you refer to a person by the gender to which they do not identify). But then as someone who has had friends and acquaintances who are MtF and FtM since the 1990s, this is not something new to me.
The state of Illinois passed their own state Human Rights Act in 2006. They have specific rules on their books that they can't discriminate against someone based on sex or age, AND they specifically have a clause which protects from sexual harassment in places of employment, elementary, secondary and higher education.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/il … apterID=64
Sounds to me like the judge is interpreting the law appropriately.- Bronwyn Joy Ellioposted 8 years ago
0I am an Australian trans woman was refused use of the female bathroom by a well known vocational training establishment. This was not the only issue I faced, but it was the one that broke the proverbial camel's back.
I took the institution to our Human Rights & Equal Opportunity Commission. Eventually, I got want I wanted - a letter of apology.
Gender Dysphoria is a real condition. Nobody wakes up one morning thinking "oh, I want to be a boy/girl." To demean someone based on their true gender identity is just as bad as demeaning someone based on the colour of their skin.
Well done to the young lady for up for her rights.What does it matter so much to you where you pee? If you have a vagina go the the ladies bathroom for surely you are a girl. If you have a penis go the the guys and if you don't like what you see; don't look!
Then why don't you use the men's room? You're less likely to get raped, sexually assaulted, or beaten if you do than a transwoman is.
See, that is what I don't like. To solve this problem why don't I do something different. Well I do not think it should be force on me or my children to be "our" problem. Can't we be sympathetic without giving up our rights? I really do think there should be the third choice, third room, third shower. What does that hurt? I would chip in on that. How does taking others freedoms make it right? Why do we have to change our thinking? Does that sound fair? Not to me. There is no hate in wanting things to stay innocent for our little children. They have enough to face when they grow up!
You don't get it at all. Don't you remember saying - "What does it matter so much to you where you pee? If you have a vagina go the the ladies bathroom for surely you are a girl. If you have a penis go the the guys and if you don't like what you see; don't look!"
My response asking you why you don't use the men's room was an attempt to get you to ask yourself why you don't use the men's room. The woman you were bashing so casually doesn't use the men's room for the same reasons you don't, plus she's more likely to get hurt doing so. Women don't want to use men's rooms. Women who happen to be trans have even more reason to avoid men's rooms.
Can you even see trans people as people at all? Is that why you can't comprehend why a woman even more vulnerable than yourself wouldn't want to use a men's room?
Transwomen are women. The brain scans of trans people clearly indicate brain differences. When it comes to who we are, it's the brain that really matters.
Separate but equal is a big fat lie; separation isn't equality.Well am I mistaken or do these "women" have a penis? If they don't then I guess they get a free pass; otherwise their rights do not override my children's and I stick by what I say. They were not born with more rights than my kids? Sure let's do something for them; even get em an operation if these "children" are so concerned about sex already but at least get them their own bathroom that all like can go in and what is wrong with that? It is simply a matter of forcing beliefs on everyone taking rights from some to give to another. Surely you can see the sense in that unless you just have a hidden agenda.
There's no hidden agenda. My agenda is to stop violence and bigotry against transwomen and that's not hidden. It's safer for women to use women's bathrooms, even if those women don't meet your personal standards for womanhood.
The violence comes from ignorance. Transphobia comes from ignorance. Both cause people to be sexually assaulted and hurt at far higher percentages than women like you and me face and our percentages are appalling enough. Keeping transwomen separate keeps no one any safer; it just highlights differences and encourages kids to behave in transphobic and homophobic ways.
There's no reason to feed the ignorance and bigotry. A transgirl is no more likely to be looking at other girls sexually than any other girl, unless she's a lesbian, but that's a different and separate issue.
Are you afraid of your daughter seeing a penis if she's being wildly inappropriate and staring at other children's genitals? Why not just teach your children not to look at other people's genitals in the locker room and shower? If the kids aren't looking at each others' parts (and they really shouldn't be), they aren't even going to see anything you don't want them to. Teach your daughters basic manners and it won't be an issue.
I get that you don't think it's possible to be a woman in a man's body, but the science and the psychology disagree with you. I wish you could meet a transwoman because you would see she's a person, a human being, and a woman much like yourself.Well if we are not worried about anyone looking at any parts then let the penis child go with the penis people. You sure have a lot of ignorant talk and I will not respond or take part in any more of it. If no one else can see your "agenda" that is just their loss.
I am worried about girls rude enough to stare at and make judgments about a classmates genitals, but you think it's perfectly normal. Why not train your daughters not to be peepers? Where did you get the idea that it's OK for the girls to be looking at each other that way in gym showers? It isn't (it's not a consensual act, the person stared at doesn't give permission) and most girls just shower like normal people in a gym setting and don't go peering at their classmates' parts.
If a girl is misbehaving and gets herself upset by the configuration of parts she sees, maybe she'll learn what her parents should have taught her and keep her eyes off other people's privates without their consent. It's little different from a peeping tom being upset by what he sees peeping in someone's window without their knowledge. It's sexual harassment and it's wrong.We are dealing with children and what you are suggesting is not realistic. Of course you are going to look, everybody looks. Guys look at each other and so do girls.
It is hard enough to prepare youngsters for the stresses of puberty and budding sexual awareness without this added complication. Why is this something that all the sudden we have to accomodate?
Mixing the genders in a place of public exposure introduces complications, as many have problems just exposing themselves to others of the same gender.
We can make accomodations for those MEDICALLY verified as having this issue regarding sexual identity in a separate or private facility.
Without being insensitive, we cannot expect to accomodate a student or two and traumatize the rest of the student body and their sensibilities in the process.Traumatize? How, exactly, does seeing a body part when you've decided to look at it and know what you'll see, traumatize someone? It's not like this is a secret with all the media attention and such. How is a penis more traumatizing to look at than a vagina or breasts?
With all this controversy going on, all the other girls already know (and likely support their classmate like decent people would) and aren't going to be staring at the transgirl's genitals.
And wouldn't the breasts she'll be growing traumatize the boys? Boys would not like one bit having this girl or any other in their shower room. They're already self-conscious enough without having a girl in there with them.
Why not train the boys not to bully the transgender student when the child with a penis showers and changes in the boys locker room? Why is it the girls who must give up their privacy and be the ones responsible for making sure the feelings of the student with a penis are not hurt?
If they are showering in communal showers, it would be hard for the girls to ignore the fact that a person with a penis is showering right next to them, whether they stare or not.Would the boys really feel comfortable showering with this girl? Boys may talk big but they really do not want a girl in their locker room. What happens when she starts growing breasts?
Yes, boys do not want girls in their locker room and girls do not want boys in theirs
And the boys get to keep it the way they want it, but the girls must accept having a person with a penis in their bathroom.
Keep your powder dry, S&F. I am in agreement with you on your point. You are preaching to the choir. I do not think that it fair to ask the girls to accomodate such a circumstance
Yes, thank you. I was just using your post to reiterate my point.
Neither do I. The young person should have accepted the gender-neutral accommodations period-end of story. There are rules to be followed & decorum to be observed. One simply can't make up his/her own rules in a school setting. The school attempted to accommodate the young person but the latter refused. The young person is a natal male although transgender with anatomy which identifies as male. The young person should have accepted the gender neuter accommodations. Young girls at this stage are very conscious of their bodies & would be QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE if someone who isn't a natal female uses gender specific facilities. It would be MUCH WORSE if the young person uses a male specific facilities, given the behavior of adolescent boys. Just saying.
So it is up to the girls to accommodate a natal male but the boys do not have to make any accommodations. Once again, women and girls are told to sit down, be quiet and accept what the males tell them to do. Girls, if you don't want to shower with a person with a penis, you are a hateful bigot. Lesbians, if you don't want to have sex with a lesbian with a "female" penis, you are a hateful bigot.
Sex-segregated bathrooms are a relatively new social convention. Women had to fight for them.Laws segregating bathrooms by gender go back to 1887. It's been in building codes for over a hundred years now. Women got segregated bathrooms before they got the right to vote.
Yes, and now some of us are allowing sex-segregated bathrooms to be taken from us.
It's up to the girls in this situation because we're talking about a boy who identifies as a girl. If it were a girl who identified as a boy and wanted to use the boy's locker room then it would be up to the boys. I have equal expectations because I believe we're equals. That said, if the girls or boys agreed to let a transgendered kid into their respective locker rooms but then felt uncomfortable or felt doubtful of their motives then I think that should most definitely be considered as well. Ultimately, wouldn't abolishing the need to undress in front of your peers in the first place make this a non-issue? Perhaps we should work on that first and foremost, because I really don't think a lot of teenage girls are comfortable changing in front of other girls, either.
I said it before and I'll say it again, I can't wrap my head around why anyone would oppose using the same bathroom as someone who is transgendered as you're not required to see anything.We are coming to an agreement as far as tackling the issue on a case-by-case basis. I would love to see that happen, with transgender students being required to submit proof of their transgender status, such as a brain scan.
That is not what is happening, though. Currently, in cases involving natal males who want to use the girls' locker room, courts are ruling that girls must endure it. In cases where natal girls want to use the boys' locker room, courts are ruling against it.
Minor girls are being told they must shower with people with penises, but male children are protected.
I would love for all kids to be protected from showering in communal showers, but no such law is in place. Communal showers and dressing rooms are typical in schools, and most states require all student participate in some form of physical education in order to graduate.
I would love to see changes made in these areas, but until then we must compromise. I see gender-neutral bathrooms and dressing rooms as a reasonable compromise. However, the private and/or gender neutral accommodations offered have been rejected in these cases.
Boys are being accommodated and girls are not. Instead, girls are told they must accommodate boys and refrain from hurting their feelings by feeling uncomfortable when they shower with a person with a penis. But "boys will be boys" so they are not required to accommodate anyone.
But the student ALREADY has a penis.
We must take care to shield the boys from breasts, but the girls are not allowed to be shielded from penis. Because?
They were not born with more rights than my kids?
Which of your children's rights do you believe are being violated?
What does it matter so much to you where you pee?
Why does it matter so much to YOU where people pee? What the heck are you doing in there? I don't know about you, but I go in, shut the door, do my thing, wash my hands, and leave---and I don't honestly care what anyone else is doing. If a transgender woman walked in, I'd assume she's doing the same. I'm not even sure it would register, or that I would give a thought as to whether the woman next to me is a biological woman. She's in the women's restroom, therefore, she's a woman. Hand me a paper towel!So how are we suppose to know which are transgender and which are rapists or just guys having fun? Why does it matter so much that they must go in ours? It is to pee. Can't they sit down in the men's? Isn't there stalls in men's bathrooms? (If there is a penis it is not a woman no matter what it wishes!)
Calling someone "it" is offensive, no matter what their gender. Please don't do that.
"If there is a penis, it is not a woman." is incorrect. You're focusing on one portion of a person's anatomy, rather than the person as a whole. These are not people who are pretending to be women to piss you off. They genuinely identify as female, and are trapped in the wrong bodies. They want to use the women's restroom, and the women's locker room, because in every way except one small piece of anatomy, they are female.
Frankly, I don't care which restroom anyone uses. There are many places in the world where restrooms simply aren't gendered, and everyone uses the same one.
We are actually talking about showering. Yes, you would avoid going into a men's bathroom, for fear of weird looks due to your feminine appearance. But showering is another matter. If you have male apparatus, and it is a common showering and changing area, better wait 'til you get home to shower.
Appearances matter.
Signed,
Former Lifeguard Used to Enforcing and Strictly following RULES.
No running on the deck!
No horse play!
No six year old boys in the women's changing rooms!
No obvious transexuals showering in common areas in the locker rooms!
Maybe I would allow Chaz Bono in the men's common locker room …
?
I am sure he would have the class not to force the issue.
I'd have been delighted to be allowed a private shower/changing facility at school. The girls had a communal shower which everyone ran through as fast as possible. Torture as far as I was concerned, being shy.
Times are changing fast, and I have mixed feelings. Yes, the pupil who wants to be recognised as female needs to be heard. But truthfully, as a youngster it would have disturbed me to have a person I regarded as male in the same changing room.
Maybe the answer is to have private facilities for all.Hell NO!!!! Parents tell girls not to take showers til they get home.
My kids tell me the showers and locker rooms they must use at their schools have no privacy. My son says the middle school boys' coaches make them shower, and the shower is one large, open, circular unit with many sprayers, so the boys stand in a big circle, facing one another, to shower. They shower in their underwear to avoid embarrassment, then go into a corner and quickly change into a dry pair before getting dressed.
My daughter says the girls' coaches don't press the showering issue, so most of the girls don't shower at all because there is no privacy. They try not to work too hard or get too sweaty during class, then just wipe off a bit with a damp cloth while still clothed, spray on some extra deodorant or perfume, and go try to hide in a corner while they quickly change into clean clothes.
From what I understand, the girls' locker room in that Illinois school now has five curtained dressing booths, but the transgender student does not want to use one of them. I guess the natal girls who are uncomfortable undressing with a person with a penis could use the curtained booths, and then let the transgender student dress/undress out in the open. The girls who don't want to see a penis could stay in the booths until the transgender student is dressed.
That doesn't solve the issue of the showers, though. I guess they could just not shower and do the deodorant/perfume thing.It is a shame what the majority are forced into in the name of fairness! It was bad enough showering with strange girls (not friends) and soon it will be boys and girls together. They have the unisex bathrooms everywhere and that is bad enough that you just cannot send a child in but have to go guard it!
"Gender Dysphoria is a real condition. Nobody wakes up one morning thinking "oh, I want to be a boy/girl." To demean someone based on their true gender identity is just as bad as demeaning someone based on the colour of their skin."
Bronwyn Joy Ellio I'm sure I could learn much from your experiences. I do have issues, however, with your statement. I can see the colour of skin. I can see genitalia. This does not mean I understand how a person sees themself.
Ignorance seems to be used as a term to insult people. ( Not saying you used the word.) Ignorance to me means something an individual is unaware of. There is no fault involved. Education is lacking. Maybe you could help educate people?Thanks, Innerspin
I'm currently writing my life story about growing up transgender in the 70s and 80s.
A few years ago I used to write about it here at HP, but stopped and left due to trolls and issues with my Hubs not being featured due to the subject matter.
Bron
No way - sorry but no matter what you wear or call yourself your anatomy decides where you shower
Thanks so much to everyone for their candid and informative replies.
Breitbart is, quite simply, a bully. Calling this young girl a boy, and rallying bigots against her civil rights, when she is very clear about her gender identification? That's pretty much the definition of a bully. A bully of children, no less. What's disgusting is that this hate-filled bully of children attracts an American audience. Fear-mongering transgender individuals (especially minors) - who are particularly susceptible to homelessness, suicide, and violent attack - is about as disgustingly hateful as a person can get. There are few steps between dehumanization and genocide. If we let this hate-speech go unopposed, we will return to the dark ages, when christians ruled, and sexual sins were punishable by death. We must not allow that our religious fundamentalists turn us into ISIS with nukes.
From the responses:
"If we let this hate-speech go unopposed, we will return to the dark ages, when Christians ruled, and sexual sins were punishable by death." - The last time I checked, we are allowed the freedom of speech even when (or if) it doesn't agree with our principles.
"This is a tough one to address. I have mixed feelings on this." - I think one question is where will this precedent lead? Where will we permit bi-sexual people to get their shower? What if a transgender child (born as a female) wants to shower with the boys (s)he identifies with? What if they bully him or take advantage? What if they end up pregnant? Who will be blamed?
"We can't be there to protect them and they have the right to be safe!"... "It is a shame what the majority are forced into in the name of fairness!"
"Group showering for adolescents was always a terrible idea no matter what genitals they have."
Interesting discussion on a confusing and sensitive issue.Freedom of speech and discrimination based upon bigotry of any sort are separate issues. You may voice your opinion, and that is covered under free speech. However, when you force differing standards for different people, that is another matter, and has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Transphobic actions today are no different than the days of old in the deep south, when blacks were forced to use separate facilities, or get off the sidewalk and go into the street to let a white person pass.
That said, I do not agree with showers in school, period. It is traumatic for many kids at that age. The junior high school (middle school by today's terminology) which I attended had separate, private shower stalls between all the banks of lockers. Two girls (one from each side of the shower) would share the shower, albeit separately.) We still hated it, for we could not easily escape. The teachers would patrol the aisles with the roll sheet, and call your name as they went by. You had to pull part of the curtain aside, show your face, and shoulder, "proving" that you were wet and showering. Needless to say, many dodges were invented, such as running the water, but standing far back out of range of the spray, and pulling down underwear straps and sprinkling some water on our shoulders, and then hop out quickly and dress, so the other girl could pull the same stunt when the teacher went down that side of the aisle. We could not bypass and refuse because the shower check-off was part of our grade!!!
In high school, it was far worse at the school I attended: some brain-dead designer had put gang showers with only half-walls in the girls' locker room, and the end panel was no higher, so that anyone coming down the stairs and rounding the corner into the locker room had a full view of the whole length of the showers!! Virtually NO ONE ever used those showers, for at times, even the male gym teachers might come in to discuss something with the other teachers in their office--which, "conveniently" was right at the bottom of those stairs....also in full view of the showers.
One day, as we came in from PE, another class had the misfortune to have been FORCED into the showers by their teacher, and she was standing with her arms perched on the half-wall, watching to be sure no one 'escaped.' As our class came in, they were all screaming in dismay. Literally screaming.
No, showers at school are a BAD idea, period.
The brains of transgender persons are biologically different from those of people whose genders match their biological sex. I understand that many religious conservatives don't believe the brain is responsible for our thought processes and emotions, but it really is. If you don't believe in biology, you probably ought not to get to make decisions about other peoples' genders.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … rain-scan/
I purposely linked to an older article to show that this isn't brand new stuff here.
Failing to accept that brains are responsible for thought and feeling and that some people are different from themselves leads homophobes and transphobes to sexually assault, batter, and murder trans people at war zone-type percentages.
http://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html
She can also be legally discriminated against and, in some states, doctors can refuse to treat her.Can't you just see an trans male going to an OB/GYN for prostate issues!!!
[sarcasm]Yeah, isn't it funny how lgbt people have difficulty getting medical care and get refused treatment and sometimes die due to homophobia or transphobia? Hilarious.[/sarcasm]
No, it's not funny. Sometimes EMTs let trans people die. Doctors refuse to treat them and their families. They have more complicated medical issues right out the gate and there's nothing funny about it.
Before you suddenly jump on it, no, I'm not trans, not that it should matter. I'm just sick and tired of religious people trying to dehumanize every person under the sun who isn't like them. You don't have to be part of a minority that's being treated like crap to care about it.@Kylyssa Thanks for providing a reasonable voice for trans folks!
Sadly, this seems to be a big generational issue. Young people are far more accommodating when it comes to trans rights. This is, sadly, another case of white heterosexual cultural dominance and people who feel they are losing their "control" on culture lashing out as they see they importance and dominance going away and it scares them.Some people see it as men taking rights away from women, and in the case of autogynephiles, rich white heterosexual men such as Bruce Jenner oppressing women and girls. And in the cases of athletes such as Fallon Fox, who are biological males competing as women, taking the place in women's sports. Men are also taking women's places in all-female universities, and in the workplace are taking jobs earmarked for women.
In Colorado, a federally funded health clinic for poor women must give breast exams and pap smears to transitioned men, taking away appointments and resources from poor women who actually have the physical anatomy to put them at risk for cervical cancer.
Some people view transgenderism as homophobic, because studies show that most of the kids who say they are the opposite sex, if let alone and not medically transitioned, outgrow their dysphoric feelings and end up growing into gay adults. Some people feel that parents who push their kinds into transitioning are homophobic and would rather have a straight transitioned child than a gay child. Some people feel that transgenderism is erasing gays. In Iran, gays and lesbians are given the choice of transitioning or going to prison, or possibly even being put to death.
Many lesbians in particular have a distaste for the transgender movement, because when heterosexual autogynephillic men transition to women, they then claim to be lesbians and expect lesbian women to have sex with them. The transwomen then call the lesbians transphobic for not wanting to be penetrated by a "female" penis.
I have an acquaintance who plays on a women's college sports team, and one of her teammates was ousted from the team because a transgender former man outperformed her on the field and took her spot. This is one less woman given an opportunity to play college sports. My acquaintance also said that by the end of the season, the coach instructed the team to stop talking about menstruation in the locker room, as the talk made the transgender person feel sad because this person is biologically unable to menstruate. So now the women not only share a locker room with a person who has a penis, they have been told not to talk about menstruation.
A former man who asked and was allowed to join a stay-at-home mom's group then petitioned the group's officers that the mothers needed to stop talking about pregnancy and childbirth because he felt left out and had hurt feelings!
I wish all transgender people the best, but cases like those above are examples of unreasonable expectations and taking things too far, not to mention infringing upon the rights and opportunities of women and girls.
Transgender people are not the only group treated like crap -- women and girls are also.Smart and Fun, thank you for sharing all of that which brings up a lot more issues of the girls and women being forced to give up their right to freely talk about real issues facing real women because the male does not have a cycle and can't get pregnant and will never be able to!
Umm, I'm a biological woman who doesn't have a cycle, can't get pregnant, and will never be able to. Does that suddenly make me not a "real woman"?
+100. Getting adequate healthcare for non-binary people is a real problem.
I am disgusted at the naive,uneducated and just plain crap responses. As a Mother of a transgender male; you who do not know really have no right to think you do. I won't comment any further as it appears that no one is here to learn or have an open mind. It's all about bashing what you know nothing about but it "sounds" wrong.
Shame on all of you.I believe in live and let live; I'm with you, PaulaHenry1. Judging others for who they are is wrong, period.
Two wrongs will never make a right. We are not unfeeling about your son but why do you think it should automatically mean a problem for our children? They are not trained to deal with it and I am not even sure it should be their choice. They are children and we want their lives left alone for as long as possible and what gives you the right to thrust something like this in their world to understand even less than you and your son? We want them learning their schoolwork and having a carefree life and if they choose along the way when they get old enough to take on problems such as you have then it will be their choice but now it is not theirs or yours. No matter what you or the government think our children are still ours; albeit a shorter period than it use to be. Why is what you want for your child OK but not what we want for ours? Have you no common sense? Shame on you for wanting our kids to be in misery too! We love ours no less and will protect them as long as we can!
You clearly did not read my comment, Paula. I am a proud trans woman. I know exactly what you and your son have gone through. You are a very strong woman, and I wish you and your son all the best.
Love Bron."it appears that no one is here to learn or have an open mind"
I've seen some really great thoughts presented here from quite a few different viewpoints. Listening to the other side of a discussion is the way people learn and change their opinions.I agree, Peg, but sadly, internet trolls are usually pretty ill people who get their jollies by spouting nonsense with no structured argument, logic, or genuine, untwisted facts. They are just a bunch of hyperbole, and when really pushed, just state that they either 'have aright to their opinion', or fall back on a twisting, sherry-picking Bible reference.
We once had a federal employee at our offices that was transgender. I would suggest that more merchants put in private unisex bathrooms to accomodate those people that do not feel comfortable using a restroom designated for one gender and would not be accepted using the restroom designated for the other.
Otherwise, we cannot turn the entire planet upside down to accomodate a handful of people.
I'm going to say the biggest problem here is that kids are still being forced to use communal showers/change rooms in the first place.
When I was in high school we had maybe 20 kids of each gender in a P.E. class and then an open locker space in a locker room (one for each gender), and 5 stalls to change in. The people who were comfortable changing out in the open space did so, the people who weren't (which was most) waited for one of the stalls. If you were slightly late for your next class you said "I had to wait for a changing stall" and the teacher said "okay."
I had horrible body issues when I was a teenager so I can't imagine having no choice but to shower/change in front of my peers. Personally speaking I would have been no less comfortable with a transgendered girl in the room. I'd be interested to hear what the other girls at the school thought about it. I seem to remember a case similar to this where there was a huge amount of support for the transgendered kid from almost every other student. If the kids being affected by it are accepting and welcoming then perhaps we shouldn't impose discrimination on them.
Gender is a social construct. To me saying that the genitals you were born with must dictate your gender is a bit like saying being born with a uterus dictates that you must be a mother. Because that's what it's there for, right? Why can women ignore their anatomy when it comes to their uterus and say "I'm not maternal" and no one bats an eye, no one says "oh sweetie, you're just ill or confused, you were born with a UTERUS! You were designed to have babies!" but when someone says "nah, this penis doesn't really fit with who I am" people are horrified?What's so scary about peeing in a stall next to a person with different genitalia? Do you assume transgendered people are sexual predators that will take any opportunity to peek over the stall to check out your goods?
I've been to many places that have open bathrooms with stalls for both sexes. Seems to be becoming more common and I say good! As a woman I can tell you it's a real pain always waiting in line for the women's washroom while the men's is empty. I'd rather pee next to a man than waste another 10 minutes of my life waiting to pee next to a woman.- Bronwyn Joy Ellioposted 8 years ago0
Are you naturally this offensive, Jackie, or do you have to practice?
May I ask how this reply adds to the discussion?
1. I am a transgender woman.
2. I have been following this thread since it was started.
3. I have been following Jackie's increasingly appalling and offensive comments regarding the trans community since she first contributed to this thread.
Does that answer your question?I would rather see you counter her points than call her names. Name-calling does not add to the discussion.
There was no name-calling unless that post was edited before I saw it, the posts referred to are plural and offensive. So now it's name-calling to call offensive posts offensive?
It's offensive to misgender people on purpose and full-well knowing it's unkind as well as rude and inappropriate. To keep doing it over and over after it's been pointed out as offensive just points to either an agenda or a desire to be cruel or both.
Trans people have been compared to pedophiles, schizophrenics, and deviants in this thread. Those things are all offensive and some of them for many multiple reasons.
It's what happens when someone insults someone and everyone else with the same condition, again and again and again in the same thread using the crudest terms that person dares use on the forum without completely alienating even other conservatives in order to spread hate and hysteria. The hate and hysteria cost lives so it's worth calling people out when they spread it.
- Bronwyn Joy Ellioposted 8 years ago0
Okay. Let's simplify this for the trolls, haters, and transphobes in this thread.
How many of you are actually pre or post surgical transgender people?
I am.
Unless you are or have immediate family - children/parents/siblings - who are - you have NO STONKING IDEA what trans people go through every day.
Until you do, keep your ill informed opinions to yourself.I have no stonking idea what you go through, but I can't help but get upset when I witness any of it.
I'm sorry our culture is so much further from civilized than it appears on the surface and I wish people were all able to see all others as human beings.
I'm sorry our culture has stalled advances in treatments for your condition due to fear and bigotry and that health insurance companies, doctors, and EMTs get to legally discriminate against you.
I'm sorry your safety and life are in danger due to public ignorance and hatred of those with your medical condition.
I hope we both live to see a world where people don't need to have a personal experience with transgender people to treat them as people.
Don't let the bile and hate discourage you because we are moving in the right direction. I'm sure that's slim comfort, but, unfortunately, a lot of humans have and will have to live through humanity's brutal growing pains. It sucks that you're stuck being part of the change rather than just getting to live your life without interference and discrimination.
(((Hugs)))You got it, Bronwyn, you are spot-on when you say 'ill informed'; the only thing worse than ignorance is willful stupidity.
I don't think men trying to silence women is that common in the grand scheme of things. After all, these men identify as women, so it would be counterintuitive to silence them. There are always people who try to take issues too far, I don't think those people should define an entire group.
I think inclusion as far as bathrooms, locker rooms, etc. runs a bit deeper than people realize. One of my close friends is transgendered and he looks and sounds like a man. If he walked into a women's bathroom people would be confused and likely upset. And then he has to stand there and explain to the women (or the concerned people who watch him exit the women's bathroom) who he's probably never met before that he's transgendered and has a vagina? And they're supposed to just say "oh okay then" and not have any doubt that he's not telling the truth? Does he then get to pull his pants down and flash his genitals to perfect strangers to prove it?
It'd be much easier to just not make a big flipping deal out of him using the men's washroom because technically he has a vagina that no one ever sees, wouldn't it?- Onusonusposted 8 years ago0
I find it interesting that people here are being called hateful or ignorant if they suggest that a man who cut off his penis is now a woman. Sorry to say, but pandering to that idea is akin to letting a schizophrenic believe that the voices in their head are real, so as not to offend them. It's pure lunacy.
Am I guilty of a thought crime? Then let me ask this to those who feel it is hateful for me to refer to a man as a man, and a woman as a woman;
If you are a heterosexual male, would you consider having sex with a man who has transformed his outward appearance to look like a woman? Would you consider marrying a transgender man?A heterosexual man would not consider marrying a transgender man. A transgender man is a man who has transitioned from a woman to a man.
Try and get your arguments right.Someone said earlier in the discussion, "all it takes to be trans is to simply feel it or think it. This is why so many young children are being transitioned. All a three- or four-year-old child has to do is say they are the opposite sex, and the current medical policy dictates that doctors must take the child at his or her word."
I am Napoleon.
I used to work with a transsexual man (Willie now known as Vicky) who took joy in seducing straight men and not telling them about her operation until afterward. It was her idea of conquest or so Vicky said.A 5 year old kid at my niece's school in Gig Harbor, Washington is undergoing an operation to have his penis removed so he can be a "girl". Tell me what kind of permanent decisions a five year old can make? They can't even make up their minds when choosing the kind of candy they want at the store.
It's supposed to be this big secret, the teachers all have to go through some kind of sensitivity training so to avoid the natural urge to object to this utter lunacy.
What Kind of sick doctor would even consider performing this kind of operation at such a young age?Good Gosh Amighty.
This should procedure should be ILLEGAL!
Where are the laws on this? The parents, teachers and adults involved are totally NUTS.
A transgender person should use the facilities he was originally assigned to by NATURE.
Nothing makes a girl a boy or a boy a girl.
NOTHING!
N O T H I N G ! ! !Seems pretty crazy but it's true. Liberalism is a disease of the mind. LITERALLY!
The extent that they go to in ruining the lives of others is unfathomable. This came from a teacher that works at the school.A teacher at the school said it's true so you choose ignore the fact that it is EXTREMELY unlikely any surgeon would agree to do this, and even more unlikely that a psychologist would let it get far enough to have a surgeon in a place to make that decision at all. Teacher gossip > logic, hey?
I'm inclined to think you're being willingly gullible because it justifies your nasty thoughts about liberals (and for the record I think you'd find that a vast majority of liberals such as myself would vehemently disagree with a gender reassignment surgery on a preschooler).If you are saying it's false, then it's definitely true.
That's it? Not going to shed any light on why you think it's an actual possibility other than "a teacher said so"? Do you have any information to support that anyone has ever even remotely considered performing this surgery on a child so young? Do you know anything about how transgendered children are treated medically and by mental health professionals? Or did you just hear something outrageous that fuelled your hate and decided to run with it?
You are right I am a hater. I hate child abuse. You, you think it's okay. You are perfectly content with my daughters going into the locker room and seeing naked men who are pretending to be women, standing there. You are okay with those people staring at my daughters while they are in the shower.
You are against the rights of women.Way to deflect!
Anyway, I never said they should be forced to accept if they weren't comfortable with it. I said they should ask the students how they felt about it (and that I completely opposed open, communal change rooms/showers in the first place). But very unsurprisingly you've just decided to lash out and be as dramatic as possible 'cause you just really like getting all worked up, I guess.Well the same people whom you are defending would be just as quick to label you a hateful bigot for not granting them full access in all aspects of society to the facilities which are provided exclusively for the true members of their preferred gender.
So, Onusonus, what do you do, personally, about child abuse? What is your expertise either in child abuse or transgendered people? I suspect you are a simple troll. Careful now, your answer matters....
You are labeling me a troll for bringing common sense to the conversation. Tell me you are not agenda driven. It's about safety, and respecting the privacy of the opposite sex. Sorry to burst your bubble but pandering to the idea that a little boy can become a girl is child abuse.
As a heterosexual female I can tell you that I would not have a single objection to having sex with someone like Balian Buschbaum should the opportunity arise. Nope, not one. Dude is extremely dudely and attractive. Sign me up.
This is the student who demanded to shower and change with the girls in the Missouri case. The student was offered a private, gender-neutral dressing area and bathroom but refused it. This student was eventually allowed access to the girls facilities, and after one week of the transgender student using the girls facilities, the girls staged a protest. Perhaps in some cases the girls accept the transgender student and are not bothered, but what about cases where the girls feel unsafe because they believe the transgender student is not genuine?
Perhaps natal males who want access to female facilities should be required to submit a brain scan showing proof of their female brain, and a statement from a doctor that they are on puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones. Edit: or have been castrated.I certainly am not going to entertain any suggestion for this person to use female bathroom facilities merely based on his behavior and his demands, where is the medical proof? This person is arrogant for not accepting the provisions made to accomodate him. The girls concerns were proper and justified.
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!!!!
Considering the youngest person to ever undergo gender reassignment surgery was 16 and the fact that most professionals won't even talk to kids about surgery until they hit puberty, I have to assume someone is either yanking your chain or there was a major collapse in communication somewhere leading to a misunderstanding of the issue.
The parents, a psychologist, and a surgeon would all have to OK a gender reassignment on a 5-year-old and even if the parents did, I highly doubt even one of those two health professionals would be on board, let alone both.I agree; I am appalled that doctors are chemically sterilizing children but castration is usually put off until age 18.
What's the difference in a transgender who use to be a boy but now considers herself a girl being next to all of your dear sweet daughters in a changing room and a lesbian being beside your daughter in the changing room?
Why exactly do we worry about such trivial things? It's a damn penis, a penis on what is physically a boy, but mentally a girl. Is that really that big of a deal? Do y'all think somehow that probably sweet kind transgender kid is somehow a threat to your child? If not move on and stop stressing over such a trivial thing!Lesbians have female genitalia. 98-99% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by people with penises.
We know nothing about this transgender student in Illinois. How do we know the student is sweet? The kid from Missouri sure isn't acting sweet in that photo.
There is no vetting of transgender students required. Maybe this student is a complete an angel but what about the next one? Who knows who it is or what their motives are?
Until there is either some sort of vetting required or until all schools have private showers and private dressing booths, there needs to be some sort of a compromise to protect girls' safety and privacy.
It is ironic that Title IX was created to ensure educational and sports opportunities for girls and women, but now it is being used by males against girls and women to take rights and opportunities away.I find it sad that they would need vetting! Women and men are to be treated as equals, unless of course it's a man (or use to be a man) then they should be treated like criminals!? Maybe one GIRL is a complete angel, but what about the next? If it were a transgender who identified as male even though he had a vagina would you feel the same? Would you worry for the boys' safety?
If the family believes the child identifies as female, that is close enough to vetting for me.The trans lobby has pushed hard for the definition of "gender identity" to only require an announcement of one's feelings. There is no medical or social transitioning required for a person to fit the legal definition of a transwoman. This leaves a huge opening for male abusers to announce they are female and then have free and legal access to women's bathrooms, dressing rooms, retail fitting rooms, locker rooms, barracks, dorm rooms, etc. A female college student can find herself living in the same quarters with a male in a female dorm -- a male with no intention of ever transitioning socially or medically.
My father-in-law had to jump through a few hoops to get his handicapped parking placard, but a man can become a woman simply by making an announcement -- and then have free reign places where women are showering and undressing, places where it is illegal for men to enter.
And yes, if a male had medically transitioned to female and no longer had a testicles and a penis, I would say, yes, let them in women's spaces. Just my opinion.I see I read your response incorrectly. Courts are generally ruling that girls who identify as boys may not have access to boys changing areas. It is the girls who must accommodate the boys, as courts are typically ruling that boys who identify as girls must have access to girls bathrooms and locker rooms.
Girls are being told to suck it up and deal with naked penises, while boys are being allowed to do as they please.
How is that for girls and boys being treated equally?Its a war on women by the godless secular society in my honest opinion. Seems to be an idea that has been born right out of the pits of hell to create more moral decay an injustice.
Then the courts need to change. If someone identifies as a sex, genuinely (parents back their story) then they should be allowed to go where they feel comfortable, and parents should stop teaching their children that the opposite sex is something to hate, dislike, or fear. If parents start teaching their children about transgender in a kind informative way I doubt there would be many uncomfortable kids. The kids against it are likely being taught by parents to be against it. Why not instead teach our children acceptance? Why jump to conclusions that these transgender kids are somehow a threat to the other kids? I just don't get it, but then again I have yet to figure out why grown ups are still all using different restrooms. There are bad people in the world, but our intermingling with the opposite sex is not a guarantee set up for being violated.
Yes! Laws need to be changed! But they are firmly in place, and anyone who tries to get protection or equal rights for girls and women is called a hateful, transphobic bigot.
I totally get you; I have always considered myself a lefty liberal in every way -- but I am also a woman, and was appalled to learn that the laws are creeping in to allow males to run roughshod over females.
Women have fought long and hard for our rights and for our safety, but the patriarchy still reigns. Women's rights are being eroded in new ways that women are not necessarily aware of.
Life is rosy for Bruce Jenner, though. According to him, "the hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear."Transgender people make up less than 0.03% of the population and are more likely to be raped, attacked, or murdered than cisgender people. You really can't believe that 0.03% of human beings have genders that don't match their genitalia?
Heck, somewhere around one in two thousand people are born with genitals that require medical professionals to decipher as male or female and then they still get it wrong sometimes!I'm not saying transgender people don't exist. I am saying that laws need to be in place to protect women and girls from men and boys who lie about having a "female brain."
Lesbians should not be told they are hateful bigots if they don't want to be vaginally penetrated by a penis. Girls should not be called hateful bigots if they do not want to undress in front of a person with a penis.
Women and girls also need protection of the medical, educational, sports and business opportunities the laws give them. Title IX was designed to give rights and opportunities to girls and women, but now is being used to take them away on the basis of only "gender feelings." Title IX provides and offers sports and educational opportunities to women and girls based upon their sex. Gender is not mentioned in Title IX. The gains women and girls have made over the last couple of centuries are being eroded so that people with penises can get what they want.
I don't see why transwomen are not required to provide documented proof of their condition before being allowed into female spaces or to play on female sports teams or take female-earmarked jobs. People commonly have to provide proof of their age, sex, nationality, parentage, medical conditions, etc. for a variety of reasons.
Until communal showers and dressing rooms are outlawed for children in schools or until brain scans are required for kids who claim to have a brain that does not match their genitalia, I don't see why gender-neutral facilities are not seen as a reasonable compromise.I wasn't aware that trans children didn't need proof in the form of parental statements or doctors' or therapists' statements. I thought the parents had to be on board and that the child had to be living as the gender they claimed. If you are correct and a child actually can say they are transgender without parent or psychologist support and switch which shower facilities they use, then I agree with you, they should use neutral facilities until their parents confirm their purported gender identity is genuine.
I want the parents' confirmation corroborated with certifications from psychologists and physicians....
And that is sad! What the child talks about to those two is not only no ones business but also against the law for them to share! Parents spend their evenings and weekends with the kids. They would certainly know if their child was merely trying to get the attention of the opposite sex or actually felt like the sex they weren't born as.
The parents would know best, aside from the children themselves. For instance, some parents of transgender people report their children started rejecting their birth gender labels as toddlers.
If it were some masochistic thrill-seeking charade on the teen's part, the parents would know because a person can't maintain such a lie 24/7 for years on end. I also think teens who want to be bullied, teased, beat up, and treated like crap are far more rare than transgender people.That of course presumes that the parents themselves are being objective about the child's condition. When we get into the touchy issue of restroom and bathroom access and anatomy, as an educator, I want a higher level of proof to justify so great a deviation from the standard.
Some gay rights activists have noticed the trend of homophobic parents transitioning children so they don't have to deal with an effeminate gay boy or a butch lesbian girl. Studies show that 70-80% of dysphoric kids who say they are the opposite sex or wish they were the opposite sex will, if left alone, grow out of the dysphoric feelings to eventually become gay or lesbian adults. Why are we letting kids as young as three or four or five socially transition? Kids who socially transition are just about guaranteed to continue to medical transition, which means sterilization. We are sterilizing kids because they supposedly are mature and wise enough to know that this is what they want as adults.
It seems that boys who like princesses dresses, girls' clothes and Barbie are being pushed to transition, as are girls who like football, boys' clothes and short hair. Why not just let your son be a boy who wears dresses or your daughter be a girl who plays football? 70-80% means there is a very good chance a child who is dysphoric will not be a transgender person as an adult.
It seems like transgenderists are all about putting kids in boxes: if you play with dolls, you need to be a girl; if you play football with boys, you need to be a boy. Remember the book "William's Doll?"Any citations for that? Because I have trouble imagining parents who can't cope with non-conformist kids finding having a transgender kids "easier". Sounds like stuff people speculate about rather than that actually happens.
Yes, I believe it is mostly speculation, and a little bit of taking what parents say when they are interviewed by the media, picking up on comments. I think mainly it is gay and lesbian adults looking back at their own gender-nonconforming behavior during childhood and wondering "if I was a child today rather than 40 years ago, would doctors tell my parents I was transgender? Would I be encouraged to transition because I wished to be a girl/boy, played only with girls/boys, wore the "wrong" clothes and played with the "wrong" toys? Would my parents and doctors set me up for sterilization, a life of numerous invasive surgeries, continuous injections and lifelong, complicated medical upkeep including unknown side effects of off-label drug use?"
As far as the statistic regarding most gender-dysphoric kids growing up to be homosexual:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981931/
“CONCLUSIONS:
Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty. Children with persistent GID are characterized by more extreme gender dysphoria in childhood than children with desisting gender dysphoria. With regard to sexual orientation, the most likely outcome of childhood GID is homosexuality or bisexuality.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25231780
“…as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health notes in their latest Standards of Care, gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … po=45.0000
“Multiple longitudinal studies provide evidence that gender-atypical behavior in childhood often leads to a homosexual orientation in adulthood, but only in 2.5% to 20% of cases to a persistent gender identity disorder (3, 6, 22). Even among children who manifest a major degree of discomfort with their own sex, including an aversion to their own genitalia (GID in the strict sense), only a minority go on to an irreversible development of transsexualism.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194003/
“At follow-up, 3 participants (12%) were judged to have GID or gender dysphoria. Regarding sexual orientation, 8 participants (32%) were classified as bisexual/homosexual in fantasy, and 6 (24%) were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior. The remaining participants were classified as either heterosexual or asexual…
It is conceivable that the childhood criteria for GID may “scoop in” girls who are at relatively low risk for adolescent/adult gender dysphoria that revolves so much around somatic indicators.“
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4345542/
“In a study of pre-pubertal male and female children with gender dysphoria followed-up approximately 10 years later, only 27 percent of children with gender dysphoria remained gender dysphoric at follow-up [10]. Of those individuals who no longer expressed gender dysphoria at follow-up, a significant portion (all female and half the male participants) expressed a non-heterosexual sexual orientation [9]. Thus, gender concerns in neurotypical children prior to puberty may represent a developmental process related to both gender and sexuality for many individuals. ”
The standard is to have genders use separate facilities. Trans-girls are girls. So...
Smart and Fun, I am hardly the expert on this topic. I am sure that there multiple complications on so controversial an issue. I never mean to be insensitive. All of that aside, nobody can really know, especially the layman what is a stab in the dark for even professional psychologists in regards to such children.
The line just needs to drawn at a point, where there is the least amount of contention, as I think you believe as I do that restrooms and changing facilities are seperated by gender for privacy and safety reasons. I don't want to undermine that or make exceptions to it without good cause, particularely at the public school level when dealing with children.
"The gains women and girls have made over the last couple of centuries are being eroded so that people with penises can get what they want."
So are you saying the whole issue revolves around whether or not the person has a penis? So if a transgender woman has had gender reassignment surgery, then that's fine? I'm genuinely trying (failing) to understand the fear here. You mentioned the idea of someone lying about their gender identity, but to what end? What exactly are you afraid of? If you articulated your fears directly, maybe those fears could be addressed directly.
+1
And why do transgender kids have to be held to special standards? The photo of the girl making a rude gesture isn't proof she's not transgender or that she's a lesbian if she is. If it is, then half the teen girls I know must be lesbians or boys in secret, because many teen girls make naughty gestures when they hang out with kids their age and they're feeling like showing off or being rebels.I used that photo to illustrate the possibility that the student is lying about their "feelings" of being a girl rather than a boy.
The unisex world you seem to advocate sounds great on paper.. There are reasons why there are male and female separate bathroom facilities.
There was a time when women were seen as only the property of their husbands. The social mores and times have changed, but it has taken a while.
The future may be moving into a direction that you seem to advocate, but embracing the idea will take time too. ( when somebody figures out how to build a 'warp drive' we may well will have 'arrived'.)
This has certainly brought about the expression of a variety of feelings and thoughts.
Thank you for your contributions.
PegWe now need more than two choices, obviously.
Here is the solution:
Every Dorm, University or Jr. High school / High School Locker Room, YMCA, Athletic club, Spa, Gym, ETC. should be required to provide the following:
At least:
1. one restroom for women
2. one shower for women
3. one restroom for men
4. one shower for men
5. one restroom for transgender females
6. one shower for transgender females
7. one restroom for transgender men
8. one shower for transgender men
9. one coed restroom for coed and those who could care less
!0. one shower for coed and those who could care less.
Elementary schools or facilities without showers must provide:
1. one restroom for girls
2. women
3. one restroom for boys
4. men
5. one restroom for transgender boys
6. men
7. one restroom for transgender girls
8. women
9. one restroom for coed adults or those who could really care less.
You Are WelcomeOr how about we just stop being so uptight and stop worrying about who is pissing in the stall next to us!
Honestly! Hearing someone else pee or drop a poop next to you isn't pleasant regardless of gender. Who cares?
Oh Please
Face it! We are very different creatures from each other.
aliens almost,
There was a transgender male where I worked as lifeguard for a large warm-water therapy pool. The pool was for quiet therapeutic workouts. But this transgender male, now female, two piece and all, would come in and work out exactly like a man. She would create gigantic waves doing HER exercises. She had gigantic long arms that swished up a storm in the pool. We could do nothing to stop her. Eventually she died for some reason and the patrons felt relieved.Your lack of empathy is the only thing gross in this thread.
"Eventually she died for some reason and the patrons felt relieved." Being different than you doesn't make her any less of a person.
I'm all for discussion on either side of the issue, it's a doozy, but you could at least pretend to be respectful of someone else's life.My point is: This guy never was the same as a woman even in his two piece bathing suit and flowing long hair, which he would not put in a cap. Even Bruce Jenner has been caught abandoning his female act when drunk. I knew another transgender guy. He could act/totally seem like this beautiful chick for half the night, then he was a wreck. Just a wreck. It was too exhausting. Its exhausting enough for a woman to act / seem beautiful … but for a man? Its gotta be doubly exhausting!
If you are a man posing as a woman, you better hope for a single one toilet bathroom somewhere.
and vice versa for a woman … I guess ...
.. no penis, no foul?Wow. That's a horrible thing to say just because someone disrupted your pool ever so slightly. Terrible attitude, I hope one day you look back at this and are ashamed of yourself. Truly.
(S)he cared nothing for the older patrons quietly exercising, splashing them, causing their hair and faces to become wet and their bodies off balance. (S)he was a like a bull in a china shop.
(S)he was not sensitive to the others. I will gladly say it again. When (s)he did not come back we were relieved.
I would say that about anyone who has no regard for others in their environment.You were relieved that someone was dead. Because they interrupted your leisure time. I still think that's gross and grosser yet that you don't see it.
leisure time! These people need to exercise in a particular way! They pay a lot of money for aquatic PT training and take classes to learn specific exercises for their condition. Some of them are afraid of water, but cannot exercise on land. They must move carefully and gently for a variety of health conditions. I guess I need to spell it out. A therapy pool is just that: for therapy! He had no regard. He had special treatment because he was a transgender… ooh ooo ... We had to comply with his every wish for fear of being politically incorrect.
We were never to refer to him as him. Yet it was pretty darn obvious.
If no one is supposed to care and people just want a place to pee and poop, why don't transgender students accept the offer of gender neutral bathrooms? They are offered a place to pee and poop but turn it down. They only want to go in the girls' bathrooms. So they don't "just want to pee" or they would not be filing court cases to enter the girls bathrooms.
So it's ok if we make laws requiring all Hispanic children to use a different bathroom they shouldn't complain? What about making public restrooms segregated again? The point is discrimination! It's easy to not care when I am not being discriminated against.
Yes, I am talking about segregation: the segregation of men and women in public bathrooms. Women fought for it for a reason.
Unfortunately, boys who "feel" as though they are girls are different from natal girls.Yes, different,. They are not the same. That is not the happy ending to the fairy tale we all wish for, but it is biological, scientific truth. They and we need to accept that there are differences. It is unfortunate for them, and I feel bad for them, but no amount of "feelings" can change biology.
Because of the biological difference between men and women, bathrooms are segregated, for reasons of safety and privacy.
I'm all for letting men who have undergone sexual reassignment surgery into women's bathrooms, but I am against making it so easy for males who lie about their gender identity to have free and legal access women and girls when they are showering, undressing, or in otherwise vulnerable states.Wow. Your ignorance about human gender is vast and astounding. It is not either this or that, it's a spectrum. You may wish the world was either male or female, but it is not. Ignorance breeds prejudice, prejudice breeds hate.
In the reply you are referring to I am writing about sex, not gender.
Sex = body parts (biological). There is male, female and intersex.
Gender = personality, feelings, likes, dislikes (opinion or social construct). This is where there is a spectrum.
Source:
Michael C. Hughes
@_michaelhughes1
"Big fat zero: Spokespeople from the Transgender Law Center, the Human Rights Campaign and the American Civil Liberties Union told Mic that no statistical evidence of violence exists to warrant this legislation. Vincent Villano, the director of communications for the National Center for Transgender Equality, told Mic in an email that there isn't any firm data to corroborate these lawmakers' claims, and that NCTE has "not heard of a single instance of a transgender person harassing a non-transgender person in a public restroom. " Source mic.com
Just thought I'd throw this out there!This shower issue:
< "The school offered this singular student a special area for changing clothes and using the restroom. But the boy and his lawyer instead demanded that school officials submit to his claim that he is female and so can use the girls’ (shower) facilities.">
Does she still have his penis?
Sorry, that is not the ticket into the girls area.
Heven help true hermaphrodites!
Now a girl, as a guy … would he, (sans penis,) be fine in a guy's showering area?
Would (s)he?
I know some college campus or dorm restroom / shower areas are coed and it is no big deal. But then they are young adults in today's weird world.
Younger kids, closer to common sense sensibilities?
Different altogether.
And why should they, the majority (sans penises,) be forced to submit to ONE kid (with a penis)?
So, maybe they should take a vote at that particular school.Rules are rules. No splashing and disrupting the other patrons no matter what your sexual orientation or re-orientation.
If you are transgender, what you WERE determines where you shower, unless thankfully defined as coed.
End of Story.
In My WorldI am a proud trans woman. When I go to our local leisure centre to use the heated pool and spa for my rheumatoid arthritis, I shower and dress in the female change rooms. I use the female toilets.
Being pre-op, I still (sadly) have my male genitalia, although after five and a half years on HRT, I have breasts. Like every other trans and natal woman at our a leisure centre, I use the changing cubicle provided.
In Australia we accept peoples' sexuality and gender identity. Any one claiming to be a Christian would do the same.Not all facilities have changing cubicles. Any transgender Christian would use one. Where I worked the individual I am speaking of shared the communal changing area with the women. This also made many women uncomfortable. We had a family changing room she could have used, instead.
I got along with her just fine. The funny thing is she was always wanting to go with me to a nail spa and have our toes done.
I felt she was attracted to me even though…
Well, it was pretty confusing.
This is not just one of my stories, but it does sound like it.+1 It would make the Christian women I know very uncomfortable.
"I know some college campus or dorm restroom / shower areas are coed and it is no big deal. But then they are young adults in today's weird world."
Just last month, the University of Toronto announced they would be reducing the number of gender-neutral showers/restrooms in their dorms, and offering women the option of women-only restrooms, after women using the gender-neutral bathroom reported being the targets of creeps who were attempting to film them while in the shower.I can't help but wonder, as I read this thread, how many of you have separate bathrooms for women and men in your homes? Or have visited friends who have separate facilities for male and female guests?
We all use coed restrooms, people. It's not a big deal.I confess I'd feel a little strange visiting someone and using the bathroom of my hostess...at the same time she was. For that matter, I don't recall ever seeing a residential home with two toilets in the same room.
We don't all go in there together though. There is a big difference. When we have friends over, I don't go into the bathroom when a male friend is in there!
However, my husband and I have been married for over 37 years, so no big deal but, of course, we are married. He still likes his privacy after all these years though.You don't go into the same stall as anyone in a public bathroom either, though. I don't know about you, but I've never watched another person do their business in a public bathroom. You're essentially just washing your hands next to someone with different genitals and I'm not sure what's so scary about that.
Umm. At a guess you've never used a public toilet without a stall. Or a urinal.
The YMCA where I go several times a week does not have separate stalls for either most of the showers or urinals. While I couldn't care less what sex the naked body showering 3' away is, I seem to be in a minority there - there have been several posters on this thread that would object vehemently to that scenario and I believe most parents would as well.No. Women's bathrooms don't have urinals and any unisex bathrooms I've used are made up of only stalls. I would assume that's the way most public unisex bathrooms would work. Never in my life have I seen a big women's or unisex bathroom filled with nothing but open toilets where everyone is watching each other pee.
In the case of a transgendered woman using a women's bathroom, it's a non-issue, since there are just stalls. With a transgendered man using a men's bathroom, only the transgendered person is at risk of accidentally seeing some genitalia at the urinals, which presumably they wouldn't mind (and even that seems unlikely to me as they're probably not getting that close to the urinals anyway). If they're pre-op then they'd be using a stall as I can't imagine someone with a vagina trying to pee in a urinal.To me, it is more than just the logistics of different types of bodies using different types of toilets or how much privacy each person has.
It is a safety issue. The fact that men can freely enter women's public restrooms puts women and girls at a higher risk of danger. Even if the man in the restroom is as nice as can be, the laws give men a legal right to be in the restroom with women, and if men in the ladies room becomes a common occurrence, women will not be able to make that immediate judgment that someone is in the bathroom who doesn't belong. Women will not be able to confront a man and tell him to leave or she is calling the cops. If a man with ill intentions enters a woman's bathroom, it will take the woman a few moments to compute what she is seeing and analyze whether or not this person is transgender. She is distracted from keeping herself safe. She is not thinking about an exit plan or whether or not she might be able to fight back.
I digress from the school shower issue because the laws are all related and in some case are the same law. Not only do these laws allow men who claim to be women (whether they truly have gender dysphoria or not) to enter women's restrooms and locker rooms, women and girls may also find themselves rooming with a male in the hospital, bunking with a male at camp, sharing a room with a male in a women's shelter, or spilling their heart out to a male who must be allowed into a rape support group for women only.The claim that all pre-op trans woman are sex predators is offensive and as accurate as the claim that all African Americans are criminals.
Americans are prudes. Don't take it personally. Its our Quaker/ Puritan background. Will we ever get with the program?
What would / should that program be, Joy?"Prude" is not the word I would use for many Americans. But that is for another discussion.
uh, compared to the French we have always been.
The influence of the media has turned us into wilder types in this day and age, but honestly we still have a lot of class. I really don't know what more you want from us.ROFLMAO: "rolling on the floor laughing my ass (or arse) off; used to indicate great amusement." Dictionary
(I just hope you are wearing your grannie undies.!)
Please show me where I stated that "all pre-op trans woman are sex predators."
"fact that men can freely enter women's public restrooms puts women and girls at a higher risk of danger."
In that sentence I am referring to all men in general, and nowhere am I stating that "all" of any type of person are sexual predators. Please reread that response.
How do you know that the pre-op transwoman is just that and not some creepy guy who likes to dress up and go into women's restroom for kicks?
There is absolutely nothing preventing men from entering women's restrooms now. Men intent upon preying on women will do so, regardless of what's legal, and what's not.
But let's get real about this "bathroom predator" myth. I live in Texas, where the cities of Dallas, Austin, and El Paso all have prohibitions against discrimination based on gender identity. Not one of those cities has any statistics that support the premise that such ordinances result in an increase in sexual assaults. Not one incident of sexual assault has taken place in a public restroom since those laws were passed."Not one incident of sexual assault has taken place in a public restroom since those laws were passed."
Sexual assaults take place in bathrooms all the time. I think you mean a sexual assault by a transgender person?
My concern is the men who are lying about being transgender in order to gain legal access to women. There is no way to prove these guys are lying because all one has to do to be transgender in the eyes of the law is to announce that they "feel" that they are really a woman.
These laws allow men not just into bathrooms and locker rooms, but also into hospital rooms, girls summer camps, dorm rooms, women's prisons, armed services barracks, women's health clubs and locker rooms, women's sports leagues and teams, women's shelters and even rape crisis shelters.
Toronto has such a law, and a women's shelter there was forced to accept Christopher Hambrook, a male -- lying about being transgender -- as a resident in the shelter. During his stay, he raped two women, one whom is deaf, and the other who is a victim of domestic violence. These women were in incredibly vulnerable states and sought shelter at a home for women. The female-only shelter had no choice but to admit Hambrook as a resident as a direct result of the anti-discrimination law in place, which dictates that any man who states he is a woman must be taken at his word.
Then there is the case of Colleen Francis, who says she is a woman despite having full, intact male genitalia. Officials at Evergreen State College in Washington have no choice but to allow Francis into the women's locker room at their swim center, based upon his proclamation that he is a woman. According to reports, Francis was sprawled out totally nude in the sauna, legs apart, when girls' swim team members age 6-18 entered the room. Girls and women in the facility also complained that Francis strolled through the locker room completely nude. This person was in no hurry to get dressed and made no attempt to cover up. When women and girls complained, the college told them Colleen had a right to be there.
Thomas Lee Benson of Oregon is also a fan of swim centers, little girls and legal loopholes. Benson is a repeat sexual offender who frequently dresses as a woman, and thanks to an Oregon anti-discrimination law, Francis is allowed entry into ladies locker rooms where children are changing into swimsuits. Here is what Benson told a reporter during a jailhouse interview: "In order to achieve that goal of having you think I am female, I have to do things that victimize other people. My drug of choice is women’s clothing. The high I get is by having people look at me and say, 'You are a woman.'" How are women supposed to differentiate this man from transgender women?
Neil Crompton Hall of Australia is a felon who claimed to "feel" as though he was a woman in a man's body so that he could be transferred to a female prison. Again, laws were on his side and authorities had no choice but to meet his demands. Hall was transferred to a female prison where he raped his cellmate and sexually assaulted other female prisoners.
Remember the Planet Fitness brouhaha not too long ago? A female member complained to the front desk and eventually the corporate office about a man in the women's locker room, and was told the man had a right to be there. Out of concern for other female patrons, the woman then proceeded to warn females of the man's presence in the locker room -- and her membership was revoked. The man was eventually identified as "Carlotta Sklowdowska," who claims to be a transgender female. However, read Carlotta's FaceBook page, and you'll see her referring to herself as a man, making disturbing sexual comments about women, describing her unusual sexual fetishes involving women, and telling tales of being a male prostitute and entertainer at sex clubs, where she worked in a "circle jerk" act.
How would you like your grandma to share a hospital room with one of these guys? Announce you are a woman, and like magic, it is so.
This problem goes way beyond bathrooms. I'm sorry to deviate from the original topic, but as I stated earlier, the scenarios are related, or in many cases the different scenarios are allowed by the same law.Relying on factual information to make informed decisions about these issues is definitely the way to go:
Colorado
Alexa M. Priddy, director of training and communications at the Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault, reported no problems as a result of her state's non-discrimination law.
Connecticut
"I am unaware of any sexual assault as the result of the CT gender identity or expression law. I'm pretty sure it would have come to our attention" (Jim O'Neill, legislative liaison and spokesman for the Connecticut Commission on Human Rights in Opportunities).
Hawaii
"Non-discrimination law has not resulted in increased sexual assault or rape" (William Hoshijo, executive director of the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission)
Iowa
Des Moines Police Department spokesman Jason Halifax stated that he hadn't seen cases of sexual assault related to the state's non-discrimination ordinance.
Maine
Executive Director Amy Sneirson of the Maine Human Rights Commission said that the state's non-discrimination law hadn't led to increased sexual assault or rape.
Massachusetts
"No Incidents" of transgender protections being abused (Police Superintendent Christopher Burke)
Fears about transgender protections are "beyond specious." Toni Troop, spokeswoman for the statewide sexual assault victims organization Jane Doe Inc.
Minnesota
Minneapolis Police Department: Fears about sexual assault "not even remotely" a problem (Minneapolis police spokesman John Elder)
Nevada
Las Vegas Police Department: No problems since passage of non-discrimination law. (Las Vegas Police Department spokesman Jesse Roybal)
New Mexico
Albuquerque Police Department: "Unaware of any cases of assault" due to non-discrimination law. (Officer Tasia Martinez, Public Information Officer for the Albuquerque Police Department)
Oregon
Bureau of Labor And Industries: "Zero allegations" of assault due to 2007 law. (Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries spokesman Charlie Burr)
Portland Police Department: "i have never heard of any issues like this." (Portland Police Department spokesman Peter Simpson)
Rhode Island
State Commission for Human Rights: no increase in sex crimes due to non-discrimination law. (Rhode Island Commission for Human Rights Executive Director Michael D)
Vermont
State Human Rights Commission: "we are not aware" of any problems from non-discrimination law. (Vermont Human Rights Commission's Karen Richards)
"We do not have any complaints related to this issue." (Montpelier Police Chief Tony Facos)
Source: http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/0 … hro/198533
Number of verifiable reported instances of a trans people harassing cisgender people in bathrooms that the above law enforcement, government officials and advocates were aware of: 0No, I don't mean an assault by a transgender person. I mean, and the statistics from each of these cities backs me up, that there have been NO sexual assaults in public restrooms since these laws were passed.
I'd like to see statistics that back up that sexual assaults take place in bathrooms "all the time".
Yea, like it being an all-women restroom is going to stop a rapist from going in and committing a violent crime....
In some schools in poorer districts, the doors to the stalls have been damaged or removed, and there is no money to replace them. So even though there are stalls, there are no doors for privacy.
Some districts remove bathroom stall doors on purpose to cut down on smoking, drug use or graffiti.
Are you seriously comparing the bathrooms in my private home, which I share with only my family members and known friends, to public bathrooms which anyone off the street may enter?
Right, our bathrooms in our homes are not to be compared to public restrooms. I don't want a man coming into the women's public restroom when I'm in there or my granddaughters. I think the original question is ...should boys be allowed to shower with girls in school. No.
Thank you, Faith, for moving the discussion back to the original question which is about showering and changing clothes in rooms with people who have different anatomies whether male or female in form.
You are right to speak about bathrooms in private homes in a different manner than public restrooms. I would hesitate to send a daughter or son into the "wrong" public bathroom based on issues of modesty and privacy rather than prejudice against those whose bodies differ from our own.
It IS a big deal if you are troll and find a juicy bit like this to invade and dominate. In addition, I would add that there are what I call 'set up trolls'...these trolls ask questions like this just to invite all the 'feeding trolls' to come out and rough up others; they get their jollies this way. Not only 'don;t feed the trolls', but 'don't take troll bait'.
I have read this thread from the start. Concluded any comment was a no-win situation. But alas, my second martini insist I note that...
The thread has completely veered from the OP into a defense or attack on transgender whatever.
Let me attempt to pull it back to what I saw as the OP question;
"Should the girls in a middle school locker room be forced to accept a biological male in their shower/changing area?"
The question seems to be the needs of the one vs. the needs of the many. The OP's question is applied to a teen/adolescent environment. The diversions that debate the question of transgender acceptance is not the question of the OP - as I read it.
Am I wrong? Is this not an example of the desires of one being determined to be more important than the desires of the many?
Of course that was a rhetorical question. Of course I am right. Of course it is a case of pushing an agenda. Of course it is a case of Political Correctness run amok. Of course I am a Neanderthal that is not enlightened enough to see that the tormented soul needs the world to acquiesce to their values instead of holding to understandable norms.
Yes, I am an old fogey that still believes a penis makes you a biological male. But, also yes, I understand that mentally that penis may be a mistake. But no, that mis-identified, (OH Gawd!), male/female does not warrant the submission of everyone else to their needs.
HGAOkay, here you are showering in a communal shower where there are about ten shower heads. Five on each side. No shower curtains.
There are slim and chubby young teens, there are young and older moms scrubbing their young daughters. An older lady is shaving her legs. They are all naked and they are all fine with that.
But one day, a transgender person with a penis arrives and claims a shower along side the rest.
Now, she has forgotten that she was ever a man and happily (and innocently,) hangs up her towel. The women glance over and unsuccessfully stifle little gasps. The young teens run screaming away. The rest would then leave the shower area lickity-slplit, trying to avoid slipping on the wet tile floor.
The women would then march in to speak to the management to request a transgender shower / changing room because they were really not fine with viewing the hanging appendage. Even though it is no longer in service.
Now, in a communal shower area where there are young teenage girls only, I really don't know. I think they would adjust, but some might not. They might choose to never take a shower in that school again.
And I do have compassion and empathy for transgender people. I just think they really need their own shower stalls.meanwhile, the homeless situation grows.
They take care of business where ever they want.
I saw one man plunge himself into the city fountain here in Glendale, clothes and all
and consider that a good bath.
So, that's all good ...
Right?@Don W,
I'm very glad to hear that in the states you mentioned there so far are no cases of abusers lying about being transgender to access women's shelters, women's prisons, women's locker rooms, etc. Or in some cases none that the person asked had heard about or can remember at the time they were asked.
However, the loopholes are there. People need to know, depending upon how their state's or city's anti-discrimination laws are worded, area businesses and organizations often have no choice but to allow males to access women's private spaces as long as the male claims to be "in the wrong body." It would be smart to check into your area's laws before sending your daughter to summer camp or admitting grandma into the hospital.
As far as Title IX and its application to female students, this is federal and applies schools and universities across the country, as long as they receive federal funding. Title IX is being interpreted as protecting males based upon their "gender identity," rather than protecting girls based upon their sex -- although the wording of Title IX itself only includes protections for girls based upon sex. There is no mention of gender identity in Title IX, however. Don't be surprised if your daughter is told she must shower with a male or if your daughter is replaced on her sports team or the debate team by a male who says he "feels like a girl on the inside." So much for Title IX protecting educational and athletic opportunities for girls.
Sit down and be quiet, women and girls. Make way for men and boys so that they may claim their rightful places in ladies restrooms, women's shelters and girls' sports.@SmartAndFun
I believe that protecting people most at risk of harm from those who would do them harm, is a good thing. You obviously believe the same.
Information currently available tells us that the risk of violence towards transgender women (in particular) is high when they are made to use male bathrooms. Not forcing them to use male bathrooms reduces that risk.
Does that increase the risk to women in general from sexual predators pretending to be transgender? Currently available information indicates that it does not. Therefore in keeping with our shared value of protecting those most at risk of harm, it makes sense not to force transgender women to use male bathrooms.
In relation to Title IX, the Department of Education (DE) itself interprets Title IX as protecting all students, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, based on existing legal precedent and in alignment with other federal agencies. In an amicus brief for the federal case G.G. v. Gloucester County School Board, the Justice Department laid out the basis of this interpretation:
"Since the Supreme Court’s decision in Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, it is well-established that discrimination on the basis of “sex” is not limited to preferring males over females (or vice versa) but includes differential treatment based on any “sex-based consideration." (1)
It goes on to state:
"A transgender person’s transgender status is unquestionably related to his sex: indeed, the very definition of being “transgender” is that one’s gender identity does not match one’s “biological” or birth-assigned sex."(2)
And explains:
"It is for this reason that the Department of Education—the agency with primary enforcement authority over Title IX—has concluded that, although recipients may provide separate restrooms for boys and girls, when a school does so, it must treat transgender students consistent with their gender identity."(3)
It also explains how this is consistent with other federal agencies:
"ED’s view is consistent with that of numerous other federal agencies, including the [Equal Employment Opportunity Commission], the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), and [the Occupational Safety and Health Administration], which have all concluded that, in situations in which a distinction based on sex is permissible under the law, a transgender person’s “sex” must be determined by his or her gender identity, not by the sex assigned at birth."(4)
And concludes that:
"Where a school provides separate restrooms for boys and girls, barring a student from the restrooms that correspond to his or her gender identity because the student is transgender constitutes unlawful sex discrimination under title ix"(5)
So the DE's interpretation of Title IX is consistent with that of other federal agencies, and aligns with legal precedent in relation to Supreme Court rulings that speak to the issue of what constitutes sexual discrimination. I think it's likely that such a case will find its way to the supreme court in the near future, where the court will have the opportunity to ratify its own previous decisions and the legal precedent set in the lower courts (the first state supreme court ruling was in favor of a transgender girl), or effectively reverse its previous decision and rule against judicial precedent.
(1) https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/gg- … ted-states (p.8)
(2) ibid (p.10)
(3) ibid (p.17)
(4) ibid (p. 17, note 6)This is absolutely the best response to this thread.
If I'm reading the quotes correctly this means that males (sex) must be allowed to participate on female (gender) sports teams. Pitting the larger, heavier, and more muscled male (sex) body against smaller, lighter and lightly muscled female (sex) bodies.
So much for women's sports!The Code of Federal Regulations (Title 34 - Education) says:
"(a) General. No person shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, be treated differently from another person or otherwise be discriminated against in any interscholastic, intercollegiate, club or intramural athletics offered by a recipient, and no recipient shall provide any such athletics separately on such basis.
(b) Separate teams. Notwithstanding the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, a recipient may operate or sponsor separate teams for members of each sex where selection for such teams is based upon competitive skill or the activity involved is a contact sport. However, where a recipient operates or sponsors a team in a particular sport for members of one sex but operates or sponsors no such team for members of the other sex, and athletic opportunities for members of that sex have previously been limited, members of the excluded sex must be allowed to try-out for the team offered unless the sport involved is a contact sport. For the purposes of this part, contact sports include boxing, wrestling, rugby, ice hockey, football, basketball and other sports the purpose or major activity of which involves bodily contact."(1)
Based on the quotes in the previous comment, I think you would be right to conclude that preventing transgender women and girls from playing on a female team would be considered sexual discrimination according to the DE's interpretation of Title IX.
(1) (Code of Federal Regulations, Title 34 - Education, 106.41Athletics)
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2015-t … 106-41.xmlIt does appear so. And that would really throw a monkey wrench into such things as track and field events. A male (sex) could compete in womens shot put, running, high jump, etc.
Odd that they include basketball as a "contact sport", though.The underlying assumption there is that transgender women will be stronger than other women.
Many transgender women take hormones in a two step process as part of their transition: 1) to suppress the production of testosterone; 2) to administer estrogen. The effects of this differ depending on the individual, but testosterone is a hormonal driver of muscle growth, so suppressing it tends to have a negative impact on strength. There are first hand accounts of this reduction in strength from transgender women who have chosen to share their personal experiences. For example:
"Currently, my testosterone level is at the very bottom of the normal female range and closely monitored via regular lab tests. So the reality is the vast majority of women actually have more testosterone than I do and, therefore, are likely to have a slightly greater ability to build and maintain muscle mass (speaking from a general sense, of course)."(1)
And:
"It's a little scary how much weaker I've become and reminds me I would be an easy victim for those who might torment me."(2)
Health professionals have indicated that transgender athletes are within the range of physical abilities that are typical for the gender they identify with:
"Transgender student-athletes fall within the spectrum of physical traits found in athletes of their transitioned gender, allowing them to compete fairly and equitably."(3)
Based on currently available information, we can see that every sport with transgender women competing, is not dominated by transgender women. Therefore transgender women either do not have an advantage, or do not have enough of an advantage to out-compete other women. This is consistent with the findings of athletics associations that have examined the issue. The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) says:
"It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence."(4)
In relation to transgender girls competing at school, the NCAA says:
"Transgender girls who medically transition at an early age do not go through a male puberty, and therefore their participation in athletics as girls does not raise the same equity concerns that arise when transgender women transition after puberty."(5)
(note: medical transition does not necessarily mean surgery. Hormone treatment is an aspect of medical transition.)
The overall view of the NCAA is as follows:
"Concern about creating an “unfair competitive advantage” on sex-separated teams is one of the most often cited reasons for resistance to the participation of transgender student-athletes. This concern is cited most often in discussions about transgender women competing on a women’s team. Some advocates for gender equality in college sports are concerned that allowing transgender women—that is, male-to-female transgender athletes who were born male, but who identify as female—to compete on women’s teams will take away opportunities for women, or that transgender women will have a competitive advantage over other women competitors.
These concerns are based on three assumptions: one, that transgender women are not “real” women and therefore not deserving of an equal competitive opportunity; two, that being born with a male body automatically gives a transgender woman an unfair advantage when competing against non-transgender women; and three, that men might be tempted to pretend to be transgender in order to compete in competition with women.
These assumptions are not well founded. First, the decision to transition from one gender to the other—to align one’s external gender presentation with one’s internal sense of gender identity—is a deeply significant and difficult choice that is made only after careful consideration and for the most compelling of reasons. Gender identity is a core aspect of a person’s identity, and it is just as deep seated, authentic, and real for a transgender person as for others. Male-to-female transgender women fully identify and live their lives as women, and female-to-male transgender men fully identify and live their lives as men. Second, some people fear that transgender women will have an unfair advantage over non-transgender women. It is important to place that fear in context.
. . . Transgender women display a great deal of physical variation, just as there is a great deal of natural variation in physical size and ability among non transgender women and men. Many people may have a stereotype that all transgender women are unusually tall and have large bones and muscles. But that is not true. A male-to-female transgender woman may be small and slight, even if she is not on hormone blockers or taking estrogen. It is important not to overgeneralize. The assumption that all male-bodied people are taller, stronger, and more highly skilled in a sport than all female-bodied people is not accurate."(6)
(1) How transitioning changed me as a runner and do I have an advantage as a transgender athlete?
http://www.entirelyamelia.com/2013/12/2 … ed-runner/
(2) Does a transsexual woman still have the strength of a man? Should she still be expected to fight and defend like a man?
https://www.quora.com/Does-a-transsexua … like-a-man
(3) Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes, National Collegiate Athletic Association (p7, quote from Dr. Nick Gorton - American Board of Emergency Medicine, Medical Legal Consultant, Trans Health Care)
http://www.ncaapublications.com/product … 11INCL.pdf
(4) ibid (p.8, Should the Participation of Transgender Student-Athletes Raise Concerns About Competitive Equity?)
(5) ibid (p.7)
(5) ibid
It really is a shame that TItle IX is being used to take facilities and opportunities away from girls and women. Title IX came into existence because girls and women had very few opportunities in sports, and when they did have opportunities, their facilities were often lacking or nonexistent. TItle IX changed that.
Now, boys are using Title IX at the expense of girls. For example, if a boy announces that he is a girl, that is all that's legally needed for him to have legal legal access to the girls showers and locker room. If the girls feel uncomfortable undressing and showering with a male, they may feel forced to dress elsewhere and forgo showers. So TItle IX secured appropriate facilities for girls -- girls were able to stop changing into their team uniforms on the bus or in a storage closet, and able to take a shower after practice like the boys do. But now an increasing number of girls will be once again banished to dressing on the bus or in a storage closet -- while one boy has the entire girls' locker room to himself. Move over girls -- a boy is here to take his rightful place in the girls locker room. If you don't like it, you can all go dress in the mop closet.
And yes, boys can also take their rightful places on girls sports teams.
How is this helping girls? It is not. It is helping boys.
Eight members of Iran's women's soccer team are men. Is the United States next?for instance, Jim was a really great swimmer having competed since he was very young. In college, Jim, with his beautiful lanky swimmer's body decided he would rather be a girl. So, he grows out his hair, paints his nails, starts a regimen of hormone treatments, etc., and shows up for practice on the girl's college team.
The girls team is thrilled because Jimmie is really fast. In fact, of all the girls on the team, (s)he is the fastest. They were jealous or her massive shoulders and strong arms. Her big feet were apparently made for churning water!
Is it fair to the other all-girl teams who compete against the girl's team from this college?
I believe, the fastest female swimmer will loose to the fastest male swimmer of same age group and competition level.
I would like to see this event in the olympics: best time female vs. best time male. What female would even submit to the certain defeat?The woman whose place Jimmy took on the team is not thrilled.
The women still on the team who now have to shower with Jimmy are likely not thrilled.
The entire team is not thrilled when they are told by opposing teams that they do not deserve to win.
Jimmy, who was never fast enough to medal as a male, may be thrilled, however because now he has a gold medal when competing against women. Yay for Jimmy.
@Don W,
Hormones are not necessary for a man to transition. As long as man says he's a woman, then he is magically a woman and can compete against women and shower with women.The NCAA has the following policy for transgender student-athletes who are not undergoing hormone treatment:
"A trans male (FTM) student-athlete who is not taking testosterone related to gender transition may participate on a men’s or women’s team.
A trans female (MTF) transgender student-athlete who is not taking hormone treatments related to gender transition may not compete on a women’s team."(1)
A test case would be needed to determine whether such a policy constitutes sexual discrimination under Title IX. In such a case it would be very likely (assuming Title IX were applicable to the educational establishment in question) that the DE/ DoJ would file an amicus brief to indicate whether such a policy was deemed consistent with the government's interpretation of Title IX as they did with G.G. v. Gloucester County School Board. Obviously that wouldn't guarantee the outcome of the case, but it would give a clear indication of the government's legal position.
EDIT: as a private entity the NCAA is not bound by Title IX, but an educational establishment that adopted a similar policy for its own sports activities would be.
Also, there are some legal scholarship papers that speak to the issue, e.g:
"For K-12 students in particular, the physical differences between male and female students are not so significant as to justify forbidding transgender students from participating in sports consistent with their gender identity or for imposing any medical requirements before allowing such participation. There is significant overlap between the range of size and strength of boys and girls, thus making it likely that an individual transgender student would fit within the range of other team members and competitors. "(2)
And:
"This thesis asked whether or not transgender and intersex student-athletes fall under the protection of Title IX. The answer after a thorough review of literature and case law is yes these individuals do garner protection from Title IX. The broad definition of “sex” from current transgender case law shows that “sex” is not legally bound to the binary construct of male or female. Thus, Title IX would include protection for those with different gender identities, transsexuals, and intersex student-athletes. Such a case has yet been decided in court but these questions are ripe for disposition. Recent athletic sensations and governing body guidelines have expressed interest and questions regarding transgender and intersex eligibility. Inclusion of these individuals can be strengthened by successful litigation through Title IX."(3)
(1) Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes, National Collegiate Athletic Association (p.13)
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/file … _Final.pdf
(2) Title ix’s protections for transgender student Athletes (p.276, Wisconsin journal of law, gender & society)
http://hosted.law.wisc.edu/wordpress/wj … rticle.pdf
(3) Eligibility in flux: transgender and intersex student-athletes and title ix (p.50)
http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcon … ontext=etd
<"The effects of this (hormone treatments) D I F F E R depending on the individual, but testosterone is a hormonal driver of muscle growth, so suppressing it
T E N D S to have a negative impact on strength.">
oh brother!
Oh brother!
We ALL might just as well stop competing in any sport whatsoever.
This post of Don's W's is the saddest thing I have EVER read in my ENTIRE life.
augh! augh!!!
Its not the least bit funny or I would put Yikes Face here.
No, I won't.Lets have an Olympics JUST FOR THEM!
I guess that would be SEGREGATION!
… well, they asked for it, if you ask me.
which no one did.Glad to hear it. However, males who have had no medical transitioning must still be allowed to enroll as girls, attend girls PE classes and shower with girls.
Males who have had hormone treatment can compete as women, although they are not women.
Outside the NCAA, males who have not undergone any medical transitoning treatments sometimes compete against women. For example, Sylvia Castaneda, also known as James Hargreaves, races on the professional downhill mountain biking circuit as a woman.
Although Hargreaves had little success in the sport as a man, in his first competition as a woman, he competed as a novice and shocked race organizers by winning it all, even besting women in the professional category.
"Sylvia Castaneda of Boston, racing in her very first downhill event, was easily the biggest shock of the weekend. The fast and fearless Castaneda not only won the female beginner class by a whopping 41-seconds, she was also the fastest female on the day, beating the women's pro division winner by more than two seconds. Talk about starting off with a bang."
That would be a cool news story if Castaneda/Hargreaves was actually a beginner at the sport, and actually a woman.Men who "feel like women" or think they were born in the wrong body are not women. They are biologically different. Even after they undergo transitioning treatments, they are still not women. This is a scientific, biological fact. Even if a man can show physical evidence (such as a scan) that his brain is similar to a woman's brain, he is still a male and not a female.
I feel for transgender people and would like to tell them they are the sex they wish to be, in order to validate them and lift their spirits -- however, it would not be the truth.
I am not "phobic" and do not wish any harm to come to transgender people, but at the risk of hurting their feelings, I have to side with science. It is a biological fact that transgender people are not actually they sex they wish to be or feel they should have been born.
It sucks to be different when all you want to do is fit in, but such is the hand they were dealt. They ARE different. Males who feel as though they are female on the inside should not be competing as females in sports, taking jobs earmarked for females, taking women's scholarships, using up federal healthcare resources specifically for females such as pap smear appointments,, etc.
Men and boys are being given priority over women and girls to access facilities, programs, resources and funds meant for women and girls. This hurts women and girls, plain and simple.@SmartAndFun
@Kathryn L Hill
I too side with science, and share your interest in what scientific knowledge has to say about gender and biological sex.
It is inaccurate to suggest that all transgender people are biologically male or female. Some individuals who identify as transgender or transexual also happen to be intersex.
Biologically those individuals may be neither male nor female, or both, i.e. a single individual has cells that have XX chromosomes and XY. Known as "mosaic genetics", this means an individual is genetically both male and female, and leads biologists to believe biological sex is more of a spectrum than the simple male/female dichotomy previously thought.(1)
Moreover, the term "person" is not defined relative to someone's biological sex:
Person:
1 A human being regarded as an individual(2)
2 (sociology): an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.(3)
3 the actual self or individual personality of a human being.(4)
4. An individual of specified character.(5)
5. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.(6)
And biological sex does not determine gender identity:
"Sex: refers to a person’s biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.
Gender identity: refers to “one’s sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender” (American Psychological Association, 2006). When one’s gender identity and biological sex are not congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf. Gainor, 2000)."(7)
So biological sex is one aspect of a person, but not the single defining aspect. It does not solely determine how an individual feels, thinks, behaves, or expresses themselves, or even whether they are necessarily genetically "male" or "female".
Therefore it makes sense not to assume biological sex is the most important defining characteristic of a person. And it makes sense to recognize that gender identity is equally as important to the cultural and social experiences of people (those human individuals) that make up society. This also aligns with our shared desire to ensure scientific knowledge informs public policy. In relation to determining a person's sex, Eric Vilain (director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California) suggests:
". . . since there is not one biological parameter that takes over every other parameter, at the end of the day, gender identity seems to be the most reasonable parameter".(8)
(1) http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefine … 3#spectrum
(2) http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de … ish/person
(3) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/person
(4) ibid
(5) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/person
(6) ibid
(7) Definition of Terms: Sex, Gender, Gender Identity, Sexual Orientation (American Psychological Association)
https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/s … itions.pdf
(8) http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
What does scientific knowledge have to say about gender and biological sex?
1. "...biological sex does not determine gender identity."
2. " ...the term "person" is not defined relative to someone's biological sex."
What does common sense say about it?
1. We are born either male or female based on the reproductive organs present in the womb and at birth.
2. Typically humans are one sex or the other AND identify with the sex they were born as.
Don cited:
… Intersexual people (i.e. hermaphrodites,) LEAD "biologists to BELIEVE biological sex is more of a
s p e c t r u m than the simple male/female dichotomy previously thought."> (1)
... based on surmises. per usual.
Anomalies, such as hermaphrodites, do occur, but people who manifest both sex organs, (or neither,) are very rare / in the minority.
Some humans are not typical in various other ways as well. Some are low in intelligence and some are high. The majority of people have a typical level of intelligence.
Majority = Typical
And thats just the common sense facts.
It stands to reason, if people are being born with the wrong set of genitals, something is going haywire in our diets, food sources or environments. Mistakes do not happen without cause. I truly believe the mother's diet should be analyzed so these mistakes stop happening. (The father's as well, along with the family line on both sides, but the human population is very difficult to follow. And that's the reason we can't put our finger on what is causing these mistakes, these anomalies.)
Meanwhile, if one determines that one has been born with the wrong reproductive organs, then "he" or "she" should discreet about it for the sake of the domestic tranquility of all.
If you ask me, which no one did.Current thinking in biology suggests there are more categories of biological sex than genetic male and female. So binary biological sex is not a scientific fact, regardless of how many people fall into each different category. This knowledge is tentative, because all scientific knowledge is tentative. But scientific understanding is, by definition, based on evidence so I think it's unfair to say it's surmised.
I didn't mean to suggest that the definitions of person and gender-identity are related to science. On the contrary, I meant to suggest that the focus on biology is a red herring, because the number of X and Y chromosomes is not what confers personhood on someone. Neither is it the sole determining factor of how someone behaves.
Gender identity (a person's subjective sense of self) and gender expression (how a person chooses to express their gender identity) are equally important determinants of a person's social relationships and behavioral patterns. For those reasons I think it makes sense to move away from the idea that biological sex is the best way to determine which shower or bathroom someone is allowed to use, or which sports team they are allowed to play on, in favor of self-identified gender.… scientific knowledge is tentative, but since it is based on evidence, it is not surmised.
Really?
Tentative:
provisional, unconfirmed, penciled in, iffy, preliminary, to be confirmed, subject to confirmation; speculative, conjectural, sketchy, untried, unproven, exploratory, experimental, trial, test, pilot. ANTONYMS definite.
The evidence is unproven / experimental then. Sorry I used the word "surmised."
One's sense of self
and one's expression of gender
determine one's social relationships and behavioral patterns.
<"For those reasons I think it makes sense to move away from the idea that biological sex is the best way to determine which shower or bathroom someone is allowed to use, or which sports team they are allowed to play on, in favor of self-identified gender.">
Your therefore is not valid in the least.
What is valid is to say a person may identify with the opposite gender if one wants to. Its a free country. We need to accept people as they are, therefore we do. However, we will not let them make our lives miserable.
If one identifies with girls and is a boy, one must shower in a separtate area and not insist on being treated as though one does not have a penis.
It is a matter of common courtesy.
Believe me, if I had a penis, but I did not fit in with boys for what ever reason, and decided to take on the appearance of a female, but I still had a penis, I would gladly shower separately from the girls.
That would just be the reality I would have to accept. Like Little Mermaid: she wanted to become human but lost her voice to do so. Sacrifices must be made when one tries to be what one is not.
In My Common Sense View.Scientific knowledge is not tentative in the sense that it's unreliable. It's tentative in the sense that such knowledge is always open to scrutiny, no matter how well embedded or established it becomes. I think that's an important difference to what you seemed to be implying.
I don't think the possibility that a transgender woman might still have a penis, that another woman might see, is a such a safety risk that it justifies discrimination against all transgender people. And I think the view that transgender women should be herded into their own "separate area" because their mere appearance is enough to "make our lives miserable", is a dehumanizing and degrading idea that robs people of their human dignity.
There is evidence that discrimination and intolerance costs transgender people their safety, health and wellbeing. If the only benefit of such intolerance is the maintenance of tradition and social convention, then I think the cost outweighs the benefit.
"Based on the 2013 NHIS data [collected in 2013 from 34,557 adults aged 18 and over], 96.6% of adults identified as straight, 1.6% identified as gay or lesbian, and 0.7% identified as bisexual. The remaining 1.1% of adults identified as “something else[]" [0.2%,] stated “I don’t know the answer[]" [0.4%] or refused to provide an answer [0.6%]."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol … -bisexual/
"For example, there is also considerable evidence that prenatal exposure to endocrine-disrupting anti-miscarriage drugs such as diethylstilbestrol (DES) may also be positively associated with transsexualism, though research in this area has yet to establish a firm causal link. Another study suggests that transsexuality may have a genetic component."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TranssexualIt still boils down to this:
(Non-intersex) MEN AND (Non-intersex) BOYS are being given PRIORITY OVER WOMEN AND GIRLS to access facilities, programs, resources and funds DESIGNATED FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS.
Women and girls are being told to move over, sit down and shut up so that men and boys can take their places in programs that have been implemented to serve, help and provide opportunities for women and girls.
Transgender men who feel as though they are women on the inside are different from natal females. They can never actually become women. If transgender men who feel they should have been born women want to secure privileges and benefits from government agencies, then of course they should pursue those goals, but not under the guise of being women, and not at the expense of women and girls.It still boils down to this:
(Transgender) WOMEN and (transgender) GIRLS are being given EQUAL RESPECT, DIGNITY and PRIORITY as OTHER WOMEN AND GIRLS to access facilities, programs, resources and funds DESIGNATED FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS.
Transgender women and girls are usually told to move over, sit down and shut up in order to make people who don't like the idea that they exist feel more comfortable.
Transgender women are different from, but equal to, non transgender women. If transgender women want to secure equality of opportunity and protection from discrimination, then of course they should pursue those goals, challenging intolerance expressed under the guise of "science", and hopefully being joined by all men, boys, women and girls who understand that being a person is about more than the biological categories of male and female.Kinda like that bi-racial thing, right? Black when it gets a person something, white when privilege is involved? Your argument is severely flawed.
Don W, I will never agree with you on this. They are not women. They are men who are taking opportunities meant for women and girls. They are not being told to move over, sit down and shut up -- they are being ushered in and told they have a legal right to take women's and girls' places.
This hurts women and girls. Transwomen need to use their movement to create their own spaces and opportunities rather than take them from women -- because they are not women. Women have fought hard for the opportunities and rights we have but now are being told that we must give them up to men.
Additionally, many women, especially survivors of rape and other types of sexual assault, find it intimidating and/or terrifying to share spaces such as locker rooms, dorm rooms, barracks and showers with men. The majority of males who wish to be female have not had sexual reassignment surgery (65-75%). Then there are the sexual predators who lie about being transgender.
Gender neutral bathrooms, locker rooms, etc. are a reasonable solution.I am with you and agree your perspective, Smart and Fun.
We already agree. We agree that people should not be deliberately placed at risk. I believe (hope) that is a shared social value. Everything else stems from that.
There is ample evidence that forcing transgender women to use men's bathrooms threatens their safety. There is no evidence from places that have a policy to ensure transgender women can use women's bathrooms, that it threatens anyone's safety. So based on the principle of not deliberately placing people at risk, the right thing to do would be to not force transgender women to use men's bathrooms. That's a given.
If gender-neutral or unisex facilities are an option, fine. If not, then I don't think transgender women should be forced into "special" areas. I don't believe that the possibility a transgender woman might still have a penis, that another woman might see, is a such a safety risk that it warrants discriminating against all transgender people.
And remember, it works both ways. If transgender women are forced to use men's bathrooms, then transgender men are forced to use women's bathrooms. If the concern is that physical appearance might make some women feel uncomfortable, then that is certainly not going to improve it.
Not to be politically incorrect, or to disparage the suffering involved in the situation for the individual who identifies as another sex. But, the damage done to a group of girls for having to be naked with what they perceive to be a boy outweighs the needs or desires of one who identifies as a girl yet has body parts to prove otherwise.
@Don W,
Except that transgender males who believe themselves to be female are not "fine" with gender neutral facilities. In case after case, males who believe they are female reject gender neutral facilities and instead demand complete and free access to women's facilities.
And this goes beyond bathrooms -- as mentioned again and again throughout this thread, this is about much more than just a place to pee -- there are also showers, saunas, retail fitting rooms, dorm rooms, hospital rooms, summer camp cabins, barracks, prison cells, women's shelters, etc. And there is more to it than just the possibility that a woman or a young girl might see a penis -- we also do not want to be forced to undress or shower in front of men.
Why is the idea of requiring natal males to provide some sort of proof of femaleness (or at least sexual reassignment surgery) rejected again and again? Perhaps because they can't provide any such thing? Because they really are men?
Additionally, the actions of many in the transgender community make it appear as though this issue is about more than safety for them. It appears to be about validation of their "womanhood." In some cases, it seems they just want women to accept them completely as women with no questions asked. If a man wants to live his life as a woman then he has a right to do so, but he should not expect, nor does not have the right to demand, that the rest of the world believe that he actually is a woman. At this point in time, with the science and medical technology currently available, I reject the notion that men can become women or that men are born women if their brains show some similarities in appearance to a woman's brain.
Trangsgender people need their own facilities and/or gender neutral facilities -- this is what they should be campaigning for. They need to stop imposing on women and girls and demanding that we accommodate them at our expense.+1
- until medical science is able to provide them with what women have: wombs, etc. … which, someday may happen … or not.
Sorry guys.
and Bruce should really give it a rest.
If you were to ask me … which no one ever would.
And this spectrum stuff?
Really?
If you are an anomaly you must be discreet about it.
"1 Something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected." Dictionary
TWISITo those who consider themselves to be transgender I'm sure that feels normal and expected. Standard, even, when they feel comfortable with themselves.
Either way, I would be curious why you would think someone should have to be discreet about who and what they are; when they honestly feel that is who they are meant to be. Sensitive to others, certainly. And, I'll be honest, I don't see where insisting on being able to mingle naked with women as being completely sensitive to others. But, do you feel that you should hide who you are? Given enough communication, coupled with consideration and sympathy to the needs of each other I would think we could come to a happy median.
They should be campaigning for facilities that make it clear to anyone walking by that they're transgendered? I can almost guarantee you that no transgendered person wants their "status" pointed out bluntly to anyone and everyone. My transgendered friend and I were close for almost a year before he told me he was transgendered, and he has friends who he has never told! As long as we live in a world where people, like in this thread, insist that their feelings are impossible and dismissing who they are, they will likely not want to tell perfect strangers something that personal and (apparently) controversial about themselves. Can you imagine running into a woman you just met an hour ago outside the washrooms, holding the door to the women's bathroom open for her offering that she go in first, and her having to say "thanks, but... I have to use this gender neutral bathroom over here..." Not very discreet, is it?
This "solution" does nothing but help segregate and expose them.@SmartAndFun
If gender neutral facilities are available, then the associated risk of violence towards transgender women from using men's bathrooms is reduced. But as you rightly say, the threat of violence towards transgender women goes beyond bathrooms. It includes men's showers and saunas; men's retail fitting rooms, dorm rooms, and hospital rooms; prison cells etc.
Currently available information indicates that these are places it is likely for transgender women to be physically assaulted (or commit suicide in the case of being sent to male prisons). Whatever you personally think of transgender women, deliberately placing people in environments we know they will be harmed is not in keeping with any positive common social values.
All men and women are equal. That is a truth society holds to be "self-evident". So transgender people have the same right to expect equality as anyone else, and the same right to demand equality where it is not given. Herding transgender people into their "own facilities" separate from other people, is not equality. It is inequality, and contradicts a basic founding social principle.
Regardless of your personal view, there is a wealth of research that indicates gender-identity is an integral part of a person's identity. And it is a commonly held belief that, in a free society, expression of individual identity is part of a person's dignity and freedom, to be infringed only where it impinges on the rights of others.
A transgender woman exercising her right to be treated equally and to express her identity (including her gender identity) does not impinge or diminish your rights or anyone else's. It is therefore not subject to your agreement, approval or understanding. Nor is it granted on the basis of what you "reject" or accept. It is an intrinsic right. It cannot be removed on the grounds of your disapproval or lack of understanding. Her right to be herself, and be treated equally, is inalienable, just like anyone else's.… equality of opportunity, not of outcome.
Transgender people cannot just change the game rules without facing and dealing with the CONSEQUENCES.
A Transgender with a peeing tube had equal opportunity for PEACE as a man, in communal showers designated for men.
When they put themselves in a woman's facility, ( a communal shower where they shower naked), its every woman for herself.!
"Oh, I see you have a peeing tube! Why, what was your name before you became a woman?"
(Don)
"Oh really! How old were you when you knew for sure?"
(12)
"Oh I see. What is your favorite thing about being a woman? "
(Not sure yet)
"No, me either. What is you favorite color?"
(Magenta)
"Yes, mine too. Where is your favorite place to shop for clothes."
(Macy's)
"Oh, well, I prefer Nordstrom's Rack."
( Macy's has better purses.)
"What size purse do you like, big or small?"
(I usually like big purses, but …)
Etc.Yes, equality of opportunity. The opportunity to go to the bathroom and not be assaulted. The opportunity to use a shower without having to provide "proof of femaleness". The opportunity to use a public or workplace facility like anyone else, and not be forced to use a separate area. The opportunity to present, and express yourself in a way that is consistent with your gender identity.
That's not changing "the game rules", it's ensuring transgender people are afforded the same dignity and freedom that all members of society have a right to enjoy. The "consequences" of treating transgender people equally are potentially less homelessness, unemployment and suicide within the transgender community (especially among teens and young adults). I hope that's something everyone would welcome.
But as I said, such equality is not conditional upon your personal agreement, approval or understanding. It is a basic right for all people that cannot be removed on the grounds that you don't like the way a person looks or presents themselves. It's an intrinsic part of personhood. This is what it means in to believe that all people are "created equal". It's about putting that ideal into practice.If you look like a girl / woman and you go into a restroom stall or a shower stall, there is no problem.
If a transgender person who used to have a penis, but now has a peeing tube, (due to hormone treatments and such,) chooses to shower communally with women, thats fine too.
Maybe (s)he needs to get a tattoo on (her)his stomach right above the useless appendage:
"Mere peeing tube. Have no fear."
Men using women's private, segregated facilities does impinge upon the rights of others -- it impinges upon the rights of women. But no one seems to care about women. It seems it is all about men and what they want and feel they have a right to. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
A transwoman, while his "gender identity" is female (meaning he feels like he is female), his actual sex is male, and he is free to exercise all the freedoms afforded by law to men.
While transpeople are equal to all other people and their human rights must be respected like everyone else's, this does not mean they should get to do whatever they want regardless of the rest of us. Using the bathroom of the gender one "identifies" as is not an unalienable right. Showering with women is not an unalienable right for men. Men lounging naked in the women's sauna is not an unalienable right, even if a man believes with all his heart and soul that he is a woman. All transgender people should be free to live and express themselves as they please, and should be treated as equals within the boundaries of the law -- but laws do apply to them, including sex segregation laws. Laws apply to all the rest of us, and we are all equals.
Women and men are already "herded into separate facilities" because they are different. The existence of sex-segregated bathrooms, showers, housing, etc. does not mean men and women are not equal. Sex-segregated facilities are allowed by law and required by law in many cases. They are there to provide privacy for both sexes and at least an improved chance of safety for women. In some countries, there are even sex-segregated buses, trains and parking lots for the safety of women.
Transpeople are free to express their individual identity however they like, but it must be within the law and it must not infringe upon the rights, safety or privacy of others. Allowing men into women's bathing and sleeping quarters infringes upon the safety and privacy of women. These same men also want to take educational, athletic and work opportunities away from women -- opportunities which historically were not available to women because men viewed women as unworthy and unimportant. Now to have men moving in to take what back what we worked for and won -- all the while, the men insisting they really are women simply because they say they are women. As a woman, I find this highly distressing.
I am not rejecting transpeople as humans, I am simply calling BS on the magical thinking that transwomen are actual women and transmen are actual men. This is not some personal, bigoted opinion on my part -- it is a scientific fact.
If transwomen don't want to use men's facilities, the trans lobby needs to take all the funds and energy they are using trying to obtain legal access women's facilities and use it to create their own facilities. That's what women did when they fought for sex-segregated facilities for their own safety and privacy.Any policy that fails to recognise gender identity affects all transgender people, not just transgender women. So it's about both men and women.
It's a founding principle that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights. I think it's reasonable to suggest that being who you are is a fundamental aspect of all three of those (assuming your expression of yourself does not impinge on other's rights).
A transgender man or woman using a men's or woman's bathroom does not infringe on your right to life, liberty etc. It doesn't stop you being who you are, or remove any freedom of choice you have. In contrast segregating transgender people from the majority of society by forcing them to use their "own facilities", for no other reason than the fact that you do not approve of them, is an infringement of their right to life, liberty etc. It penalizes transgender people for being who they are, and it removes freedom of choice.
In addition, we know that forcing transgender people to use bathrooms that do not align with their gender-identity increases the risk of violent assault. Forcing people into environments we know are harmful to them, is an infringement of the right to life.
Treating transgender people equally does not reduce equality for non-transgender people. It reduces inequality by ensuring that transgender people enjoy freedom from deliberate harm, and freedom to express who they happen to be without being segregated from the rest of society. That is respecting the rights of transgender people, which we agree is something we must do.
It is scientifically inaccurate to suggest that a transgender woman's biological sex is male. Her biological sex could be male (and that will typically be the case) but new scientific information tells us her sex could also be both male and female, or neither male nor female. So it's unhelpful to make assumptions about the biological sex of transgender people. There is also increasing evidence that gender-identity is determined biologically, but completely independent of sex:
This short segment from PBS explores that idea: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/biology- … -children/ (1)
It's also unhelpful, and potentially harmful, to refer to transgender people by their biological sex rather than their expressed gender identity:
"Many [Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming] people experience discrimination, ranging from subtle to severe . . . Discrimination can include assuming a person's assigned sex at birth is fully aligned with that person’s gender identity, not using a person’s preferred name or pronoun, asking TGNC people inappropriate questions about their bodies, or making the assumption that psychopathology exists given a specific gender identity or gender expression . . . Research has documented the extensive experiences of stigma and discrimination reported by TGNC people (Grant et al., 2011) and the mental health consequences of these experiences across the lifespan (Bockting, Miner, Swinburne Romine, Hamilton, & Coleman, 2013), including increased rates of depression (Fredriksen‐Goldsen et al., 2014) and suicidality (Clements‐Nolle, Marx, & Katz, 2006)"(2)
Instead, the American Psychological Association advises that:
"Respecting and supporting TGNC people in authentically articulating their gender identity and gender expression, as well as their lived experience, can improve TGNC people’s health, wellbeing, and quality of life"(3)
It's a common belief that a happy, healthy society is better than an unhappy, unhealthy society. Therefore if we know that using preferred pronouns can help improve the health and wellbeing of a group of people, I think it makes sense to use preferred pronouns. There is no guarantee our assumptions about someone's biological sex will be correct anyway, so it makes sense to assume.
This is not about whether it's acceptable to have male and female bathrooms. It's about whether or not it's acceptable to discriminate against someone because their biological sex is different to their gender-identity; and whether a transgender person should be denied the right to live in a way that authentically reflects who they are. It isn't acceptable, because those inalienable rights are not conditional. They are not dependent on whether you confirm to someone else's idea of who you should be.
Where transgender people use bathrooms that align with their gender-identity, information does not show that the privacy and safety of women is adversely affected. I think it makes sense for public policy to be based on evidence and shared values. The argument for discriminating against transgender people is not supported by evidence, and contradicts shared values.
There is no issue with transgender people campaigning for their own separate facilities if that is what they choose. But forcing transgender people to use separate facilities, thereby segregating them from the rest of society, is degrading, stigmatizing and dehumanizing.
If you think the issue of transgenderism is as simple as people saying they are the opposite sex, then you are in disagreement with current thinking in both biology and psychology. And while you are entitled to disagree with academic research, and the advice of healthcare professionals, you aren't entitled to harm others by stigmatizing and discriminating against them on the grounds that you do not like who they are. I'm glad you share the belief the rights of transgender people must be respected, but I think your ideas in relation to transgender people and bathroom facilities contradicts that belief.
(1) Is gender identity biologically hard-wired?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/biology- … -children/
(2) Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People (p1, p10)
https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf
adding snark to bigotry does not hide, nor excuse, inherent hatred.
I am not intolerant. I have no hatred. Not being snarky.
If we cannot see the situation in a lighthearted way, we will never be able to deal with it.
The majority of us will never understand.
Might as well face it.
Fine. We will just have to get used to the sight of some women whose peeing tubes are dangling.
Not trying to be funny.
Realistic.
( In these cases, we can't exactly call them penises anymore.)
Another solution:
No one is to state what sex they are / affiliate with.
After all, we could be anywhere on the spectrum. Some may be spiritually neuter!
What about them?
So, Co-ed bathrooms and showers are the only real solutions.
Like it or not.The only real solution, I think, is to have those with penises use the men's room,and those with vaginas to use the women's room.
People can call themselves what they want. If I say I am a pink unicorn, should efforts be made to create a pink unicorn bathroom?How often do you watch other random women pee? How often have you seen a woman's vagina while she's in a bathroom stall? If the answer is anything other than "never" then I'm REALLY interested in hearing that story....
Open showers shouldn't even be a thing, especially not in high schools. It's a terrible idea, regardless of which genders are showering with each other.Oh really????
~ you must be very special up there in Canada. Here in USA communal showers are quite common!!!!!What about a woman who has become a man trying to pee in a men's communal bathroom?
Every men's room I've ever been in (and I've actually been in more than you may think
) had a stall or two, you know, in case someone has to take a dump. I'd imagine transgendered women just use the stall.
And I guess we are special? Swimming pools and the like have communal showers but everyone is required to keep their swimsuits on and both genders can use the same area. That's the only communal shower I've ever seen."Swimming pools and the like have communal showers but everyone is required to keep their swimsuits on and both genders can use the same area."
NOPE! Never seen that here. Communal showers are in the men's locker room area and in the women's area ... where I worked, anyway. Other facilities have separate shower stalls, so thats good. But most schools that I know have communal shower areas for boys and girls in their separate locker rooms from Jr. High upward.
In my experience.
Once Obama completes his long term strategy of importing Islamists and establishing Sharia law, this whole problem will be moot.
Before that time, parents need to home school or their children will be hopelessly, and purposefully confused about their sexuality.
By the way, amongst, communists, Marxists, progressives, liberals and democrats, this attempt to destroy capitalism in general and America in particular from the inside is deliberate. Yes, they are doing this on purpose.
For the longer term, ladies, just buy your hijabs and burqas, you are going to need them some day! The reason I am so certain is that those who practice Sharia want their system to be in place much, MUCH more than you want to keep say Bacon, Beer, and Bikinis in place. This is a case where the one who wants it the most wins.I bet you're lots of fun to hang out with.
By the way, I have a friend who has lived in a country under Sharia Law for almost 5 years and she practically lives in a bikini. Lots of Facebook photos to prove it!
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Edit: This isn't to say I agree with a lot of things implemented by Sharia Law in certain countries, a lot of it is awful. But what people don't seem to understand is that Sharia Law itself can mean different things in different countries and means different things to different people. In some cases Sharia has actually been used to protect women. Extremists, of course, want to take all the of extreme things and make good use of them. But a lot of Muslims interpret it differently and reject barbaric aspects.Really Aime F? I am glad you are a Canadian.
Because I make an effort to understand things instead of fear-mongering?
Again, I'm not saying that I want Sharia Law here or anywhere else. What I'm saying is that a lot of Muslims who support Sharia Law support only certain aspects of it, often those which apply to family matters and not public or criminal ones. People like to throw out scary statistics about the amount of Muslims who support Sharia Law and then pretend that it means that they're going to come and slit your throats and take away the rights of women. That, again, is pretty specific to the extremists and not the norm.
Personally, I'd never choose to live in a country under Sharia Law, but I don't fear some scary "takeover", either. I actually have to chuckle a bit because a lot of the things prohibited under Sharia Law (homosexuality, pre-marital sex, etc.) are things that a lot of Christians oppose, too.You are way off topic.
But for what it is worth here: We are a basically a Christian nation. We allow freedom of religion within the boundaries set forth in the Bible and The Golden Rule. Our nation and our way of life is being threatened from all sides. We who know right from wrong and good from bad will fight all enemies and we will win.
Hopefully other countries will come to our aide when the time comes. Meanwhile, one more dreadful year for this dreadfully treacherous "president."
In my view, as well.
Thanks for your input, poetryman 6969.
<"Before that time, parents need to home school or their children will be hopelessly, and purposefully confused about their sexuality.">
That pretty much wraps it up.
TWISI
PS There are many other reasons to establish home / community schools!The US is by design a secular nation, not a "Christian" one. It was founded in opposition to religious tyranny by the majority. It was founded to make clear that being a nation where most people are Christian is not the same thing as being a Christian nation, because citizens being free to follow their conscience is the founding principle. The law sets rules but they are not and in fact cannot be drawn from a specific Holy book.
The founding fathers, especially the primary father of our nation, George Washington, revered the Bible and all Christian churches.
The pilgrims/puritans sailed the seas and refused to leave this continent once they arrived, despite all extreme hardships, to practice their understanding of Christianity.
It was their fierce willpower and determination that planted the seed in this nation.
There are more and more weeds growing ...
When we, the people of the US, finally get on the same page, we will be able to pull them out.
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