It Has Come To This
There has been a strong culture of anti-intellectualism in American culture. Intellectualism in America hasn't been valued. Athletes & celebrities have been valued over scholars, intellectuals, scientists, & academics. According to a study done by scientists at Northwestern Univeristy & the Univeristy of Oregon, there is a decline in American IQs among the less educated, particularly in the 18-22 year old group. What can be done to make American culture value intellectualism? Are Americans becoming less intelligent? Why? Why not?Intellectuals turned against our country. Most of them now preach hating on America. This makes good and decent people disdain them.
"Intellectuals turned against our country."
I don't understand your statement. I respectfully ask you to please explain why you feel that way. Not arguing, just wondering.
Taking a ideological tack has superceded our respect and admiration for learned professionals in any and all fields.
That is as dumb as it gets and portends an American decline into the realms of irrationality and madness...One thing that has always confused me is that you can get ‘sports scholarships’ for universities in the USA; at least that is the perception on this side of the pond, based on what we see in American films?
We don’t have scholarships in the UK, so I can’t talk from personal experience, or from a knowledgeable platform on the subject; but my perception is, if scholarships are going to be awarded, shouldn’t they be awarded to kids who show intellectual promise but can’t afford the university fees e.g. kids with intellectual promise from poorer families?Sports scholarships are just the most recognized because of the media and are full ride scholarships They, too, are emphasized with students from the lower economic levels being blessed with opportunities of a university education resulting from their sports prowess.
Here, in the US, there is an abundance of intellectual scholarships both general and field-specific. There are many kinds of scholarships. They are not all full ride scholarships.
I got one given by the Rotary Club in the city I lived in. It was only $2,000. The two main criteria were grade point average and we had to write a paper on our life goal and how to obtain it. In other words, kind of like a business plan in composition format.
All my nieces and nephews that attended college/university had more than one scholarship in one form or another. One niece had a full ride covering everything - tuition, dorm, meals, books, and a small stipend for incidentals.
The following link is to scholarships just for the state of California.
California Scholarships
https://www.scholarships.com/financial- … california
The next link is a data base for the U.S.
50 million members have trusted Fastweb for over 25 years
https://www.fastweb.com/ppc?utm_source= … &pmt=bThanks for your feedback Tim, it’s something I’ll have to digest and mull over for a while, and keep an eye on this forum, to let things sink in; so that I can clearer handle on it!
It’s quite a different set up in the UK, as I said before, we don’t have scholarships; but then again the university fee system in the UK isn’t crippling, and doesn’t disfranchise even the poorest of the poor from going to university if they wish to.
Yes we do have university fees in the UK (except for Scotland), £9,250 ($11,450) per year; but students don’t have to pay a penny back until/unless you start earning more than $31,000 per year, and even then you only pay 9% of just the income that you earn over $31,000 e.g. if your income is $41,000 (the current national average wage in the UK) then you’ll only be paying back just $75 per month.
However, if you never earn more than $31,000 and for any student loan debt outstanding when you retire; the entire debt owed is written off, so that you owe nothing.
Also, for people on low income, wishing to go to university, they’ll continue to get Government benefits, including housing benefit if they rent e.g. the local government pays their rent for them.
And although it doesn’t apply so much these days because most people have a computer or laptop; when my wife went to university as a mature student, and when my son went to university, they were both given 100% grants by the university to cover the cost of buying a computer of your choice (to within reason), because these days it’s considered essential that people have a computer to help them with their university studies.
In the UK, it’s just Scotland where university is free to all UK and EU citizens (except the English, who have to pay – political reasons).
So trying to get my head around scholarships (in the USA) and how they work, and what difference they make, will take a little time to sink in; especially sports scholarships, because I see universities as a place to learn (academic), and not a place to play sports?We also have grants most known are Pell Grants. A short blurb on it for California is;
"The California Pell Grant is used for attending college. The Pell Grant is one of the most popular forms of financial aid for undergraduate students. It is free money that you do not have to pay back. However, students who leave school early may have to give the money back to the school."
A link to the fedral Pell Grant follows:
Federal Pell Grants are usually awarded only to undergraduate students.
https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/grants/pellThanks for the link Tim; I found it most educational – although it raised more questions than answers!
I note from the link that:-
1. The maximum Pell Grant award is $7,395 per year; is that enough to cover the university tuition fees?
I did ask Google, but I couldn’t get a straight answer on how much university fees are in the USA.
In the UK (except for Scotland, where university is free) university Degrees are 3 year course, regardless to which university you go to, the fees are set at a flat fixed rate of $11,450 per year university tuition fees (total of $34,350 over the three years); or 4 years if the student opts for a gap year.
Do you have gap years in the USA e.g. where the student opts to take a year off, after the second year; either to temporarily work for a Company that’s relevant to their university Degree (to gain knowledge and experience) before completing their final year – which not only helps in passing their Degree, but also, if they impress the employer they worked for in that year, the employer will often give them a permanent job once they pass their Degree.
Some students take a gap year to have one last fling before settling down to routine life e.g. spending their gag year touring the world.
2. The Pell Grants are means tested, and only awarded basically to just the poorest of the poor e.g. “undergraduate students who display exceptional financial need”.
That seems to differ considerably from the UK. The nearest we have to the ‘Pell Grant’ is that each university does have ‘hardship funds’ financed and Administered by the ‘Student’s Union’; where student’s with exceptional financial need can apply to – as a safety net. But as student loans don’t have to be paid back, unless/until you’re on a very high income, there’s little need for a grant system as the loan system makes university affordable for even the poorest of the poor in the UK.
The ‘student loan’ is available to ‘all’ students, and only needs to be paid back if the student ever gets a high paid job – and if they don’t the student loan is written off when they retire e.g. my wife’s student loan was written off when she took early retirement at the age of 60.
Also, the grant for a computer or laptop was never means-tested; which is why both my wife given the grant when she went to university, which paid for our first computer (back in the mid-1990s), and why our son was given the grant when he went to university, just over 12 years ago, to buy himself a top range iMac. The criteria is whether the student has a computer or laptop; which most do these days – although I can imagine students from a poor family may not have a laptop if they live away from home to go to university e.g. their parents couldn’t afford to buy their child his/her own laptop.
So my question is; as the Pell Grant is only for students who display exceptional financial need, and as it’s capped at $7,395 per year – students who don’t get scholarships, and who are not from rich families, I guess must rack up considerable student debts by going to university – How are those debts paid off, and what stress does the debts put on the students, especially if they don’t get a highly paid job after leaving university to pay the debts off.
Do you have a system similar to the UK, where they don’t pay a penny if they don’t get a highly paid job, and or are those debts written off when the students retire; or do those students’ carry those debts for life, and burdened with debt repayments even when they can’t afford it?First, in the U.S. there are different types of learning institutions starting with private and public. I am going to reference the article following, which relatively is a short read listing the different types of learning institutions.
Bear in mind tuition for all the different types is not fixed and varies shall we say immensely. While not going deeply there also is in-state tuition and out-of-state tuition. Along with that is that there is no national regulation for tuition, it is based on the type of learning institution and state colleges and universities for all 50 states.
What are the Different Types of Colleges? by the College Board
https://blog.collegeboard.org/what-are- … s-colleges
Note: That article one would say is in general and may vary from state to state
As for tuition, they vary. For instance here where I live in San Diego County of California there mainly are:
Technical/Trade schools (Some offer Associate degrees too). Those can range between automotive to medical. Pima Medical Institute near me tuition as quoted from their site is the 2023 tuition & fees are $17,080 for undergraduate programs at Pima Medical Institute-San Marcos. Its tuition & fees are cheaper than the average costs ($25,895) of private community colleges in California.
Community colleges that are two years and graduate with an Associate of Arts degree and/or a certificate program. One path is to graduate with a degree and/or transfer to a higher learning institute. One within 10 miles of me is Palomar college.
For it as quoted, "The 2023 tuition & fees of Palomar College (Palomar) are $1,348 for California residents and $10,644 for out-of-state students. Its tuition and fees is a little bit higher than the average amount for similar schools' tuition of $9,127 based on out-of-state tuition rate. The tuition & fee has risen more than 5% this year (2023) at Palomar."
Private colleges. In the San Diego metro is the University of San Diego. Following is a link to the cost
https://www.sandiego.edu/facts/quick/2020/expenses.php
Note: Bear in mind many students are local. so don't need room & board
State colleges. In this case, I will use San Diego State University as they have seven colleges besides the central university. For cost see the link below.
https://sacd.sdsu.edu/financial-aid/fin … nce-tables
State Universities. For this, I will use the University of California of San Diego. The link following presents their cost. Remember with tuition there are in-state and out-of-state.
https://fas.ucsd.edu/cost-of-attendance … 1680277247
Also, there are universities like the National University that have different types of learning formats. Theirs is one class at a time that is accelerated learning. (Four Week) They have online classes as all learning institutes pretty much do today. I have taken many online classes at different learning institutes here in San Diego County mainly for fun and the learning experience.
National University cost
https://www.nu.edu/admissions/tuition-2/
Yes, the cost of higher learning is higher once jumping from a community college. Last year Biden offered a debt forgiveness program. See the next link. Basically, it cancels $10,000 for a graduate. It is contentious and I don't know if it is effective today.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo … d-it-most/
The bottom line is higher education can be nominal when attending a community college and it can be much higher. I did not get into the Ivy Colleges that can reach as high as $90,000 a year. See the next link for them. They are renown like Oxford is.
https://www.bestcolleges.com/blog/what-is-ivy-league/
Higher learning financially is a drain on many Americans and is a constant complaint too.
More on financing higher learning. First, Pell Grants are not the only grants available. Next. the College Grants Data Base link. There are many to explore.
https://www.collegegrant.net/california/Thanks Tim, you’ve given me a wealth of knowledge which I shall endeavour to digest as best as I can.
In the UK, generally speaking colleges and universities are all essentially public; to be precise, colleges are independent self-governing organisations but they have always relied heavily on government funding.
While in the UK Universities receive income from student fees, government grants and research grants, as well as generating their own income through charitable fundraising, investments and business activities such as 'spin-out' companies.
There are distinct differences between universities and colleges in the UK, in that:-
• Universities, although independent self-governing organisations, are ‘instituted’ by government, and given ‘Degree’ awarding powers by the government; powers which colleges don’t have. So you can only get a Degree by going to university, not a college.
• Also, although university fees are high these days; education at college is very, very cheap or free e.g. English, maths courses at college are free for ‘all’ (regardless to age or wealth), and now most college course are free for most students under the age of 24.
Out of interest I just looked on the City of Bristol College website for free adult courses in science; and there are currently four ‘A’ (Advanced) level courses on offer, in Biology, Chemistry, Physics and Applied Science. An ‘A’ Level, although not a Degree, is a high level qualification, and with two ‘A’ levels it opens up job opportunities in ‘lower management’ jobs.
Also, at the same college, if I wanted to I opt to do a course in Interior Design or Graphic Design; both these course you have to pay, but the fee is only £300 ($370), so it wouldn’t brake the bank if I wanted to learn about Interior Design, and on passing the exam, gain a certificate in it.
It’s interesting that courses in the USA are generally either two or four years; in the UK College courses are either one or two year, and university courses usually three years.
As in the USA, some colleges and universities will specialise in specific areas e.g. ‘technical colleges’ are common; and of course the NHS has close links with universities, and there are a lot of ‘university hospitals’ run by the NHS for student nurses and doctors.
Picking up on the point where ‘out of State’ students pay more; that theme plays out in the UK in the sense that foreign students e.g. student’s from America are charged much higher university fees than people from the UK. But it is striking how fees vary so widely in the USA, whereas the university fee in the UK (except for Scotland, where its free) is one standard rate – set by Government.
Reading your comprehensive response, and looking at the links you provided it is good to see that there are some inexpensive educational routes in America; and it’s good to see that there are various grants systems to pursue for the more expensive colleges and universities. But the thought of the stress it must cause trying to apply for whatever grants you can get, sends a shudder down my shoulders.
And picking up on where you mention ‘online’ tuition, which as you say is becoming common place now; that reminded me of the one popular University I haven’t mentioned in this discussion – and that’s the ‘Open University’.
The ‘Open University’ was founded by the Labour Government in 1969; it’s a far more flexible way to get a Degree, you can do the Open University while holding down a full time job, and its fees are a fraction of the standard university fee. Currently the total cost of doing a Degree with the Open University is just £6,924, which if you did it over three years would work out to just £2,308 ($2,800) per year.
Originally, before the days of the Internet the courses were broadcast on the TV, on BBC2 during the early hours of the morning. Of course these days, you can do it all over the Internet. A work college of mine (close friend) got his History Degree through the Open University.
Open University - How does it work? https://youtu.be/rsWwffX-u0A
Finally: Thanks Tim, once I’ve had a chance to mull over all the info you’ve given me I think I will have a greater understanding the American Educational system; so when I see references to it in American movies in the future, it will hopefully be less confusing and more meaningful.Howdy Nathan! Yes, it is a lot of info to digest. I must mention three of those institutes are within a 15 - 20 minute drive for me. The others are in the San Diego metro closer to 30 - 40 minutes.
I did not mention here in the city I live of a 150k population there are community classes administrated by the city. They are inexpensive some as low as free.
Some classes are transferable to a higher learning institute for a degree. Otherwise, they are interest-type classes like beginning computer classes to advanced especially for MS Windows, woodworking, cooking, etc.
In summary for degree types, they are as follows
Specific certificate programs like medical types, auto repair or body, industrial arts, social worker, computer and information systems, etc.
Associate of Arts - That is usually done in two years but at times can be done earlier. Some people take more years depending if attending full time or not.
For instance, when I first attended Palomar Community College I completed one year and then dropped out. I returned 20 later at age 48 to complete my Associate of Arts in General Education with a certificate in Automotive Technology and Microsoft Windows. However, having my core classes out of the way a year later I had a Social and Behavioral AA degree.
Note: Most schools are a two-semester format with at times a summer semester. Bear that in mind when looking at those costs for a year. That is for a two-semester year.
Bachelor's degree - usually a four-year program. However, like my niece, this year graduated in 3-1/2 in speech pathology and is headed for a Master's degree. So, instead of 8 semesters, she did it in 7.
Master's degree - usually two additional years
Doctoral degrees can vary and there is a thesis for them. So, most have research involved and time varies. Usually, it is two years.
For a medical doctoral degree, there is also a residency. Medical doctors are a minimum of twelve years because of specialties factored in. For instance, a psychiatrist is a psychologist education, a medical doctor education, and a psychiatry education.Wow, thanks for the additional info; what struck me most is the difference in length of time for Degree between UK & USA, which I’ll get to in a minute, but first, just to quickly cover points that caught my eye.
Where you say “some classes are transferable to a higher learning institute for a degree”; in the UK (with the exception of the Open University, where you don’t need any previous qualifications to do an Open University Degree); to get accepted in a University you need the equivalent to two ‘A’ (Advanced) levels or similar.
Apart from the brightest of kids most children at school just take GCSE’s (Ordinary level qualifications), and if they pass their exams in GCSE’s it gives them the qualifications for exam for Admin work at the lowest grade. If they pass 5 GCSE’s exams then it opens up the opportunity for Admin work at a higher grade e.g. supervisor.
So to get to university most school children, on leaving school at 16 will go to college for two years to get the equitant of 2 ‘A’ levels.
When my wife and her friend from across the road to use (a single mum) wanted to go to university (as adult students) to do a three year Bachelor of Arts Degree in Business Administration (with Hons.), both only had their GCSE’s from school, so they did a two year college course in Business Administration, equivalent to 2 ‘A’ levels (on passing their end of course exam); which gave them the required qualifications for university.
Yep, the wide range of College and Degree types you describe in the USA; it’s basically the same in the UK e.g. a plethora subjects to choose from to study, covering just about anything you can imagine.
Now getting back to the interesting bit; the difference in course lengths for Degrees in UK vs USA:-
• In USA Bachelor’s Degrees are 4 years; in the UK it’s only 3 years.
• In the USA Masters 2 years; in the UK it’s only 1 year.
• In the USA PhD 2 years; in the UK it’s 3 to 4 years.
• In the USA Medical Doctoral Degree is minimum of 12 years; in the UK it’s 5 years, but you first need to pass a Degree in medicine before taking the Doctoral (3 years); so it’s 8 years in total. Of course, with medical Degrees, in the UK the universities and the NHS work very closely together (partnership).
According to the blurb on official UK websites the reason that our Degrees are generally shorter than Degrees in the USA is that in the UK is because we specialize in the subject right from the beginning – and that a message supported by videos I’ve watched in the past from an American who’s now settled in the UK talking about his educational experience in America, and in the UK e.g. the reason he first came to the UK was to do his Degree over here.
So I gather from those two sources that in the USA the first year or two of a Degree isn’t specialising in the subject from the start, but a little more general?
University life as a student nurse https://youtu.be/1DsmbBOlj84Howdy! Yes, all colleges and universities have core classes that must be done and usually accomplished in the first two years. Things like history, English language classes, some sort of science, and so forth. Some may require two classes to meet requirements like World History 101 & 102.
Doing those core classes at a two year community college in the first two years that are transferable is a normative path for students who don't want/have to spend a lot of bucks/
After transferring to a f our year college or university from a community college after choosing a major in a specific field the cost goes up.
But, not all core classes are transferable. Different higher learning institutes may not allow them. For instance, University of California San Diego may accept a class whereas Texas A&M University may not.
Using your example of a nurse. First we have different levels for nurses like a Registered Nurse (RN) A RM requires a Masters Degree. See next link for sixteen different types while they are more..It shares salary, job growth, required education, locations, and responsibilities
https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/ … nfographic
Here is a landing page on Google for types of nurses.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi … pes+nursesThanks for the clarification. Taking your last point first; nursing:
Likewise in the UK there’s a wide range of types of nurses, around 30 different types of nurses in the UK; and yeah, some types of nurses requires a higher level of university Degree than others, and of course are better paid accordingly. In looking on the appropriate website, there are essential three main levels of university qualifications someone can choose from in order to become a nurse in the NHS, as follows:-
• Undergraduate e.g. BSc (Bachelor of Science) with (Hons)
• Post Graduate e.g. Master of Science with (Hons)
• RTP (Return to Practice) - a refresher course, for example, for a nurse who left the NHS to bring up her children and when they get old enough, she decides to return to the NHS; or a doctor who leaves the NHS to work in an American hospital for a couple of years then decide to return to the UK. As the RTP is only a refresher course, it’s just a short course, tailored for the individual, and is usually from only one month up to just six months.
I think in essence, as part of doing your university Degree requires working within the NHS e.g. student nurses and student doctors, your final choice as to what type of nursing you want to do doesn’t have to be made until after you’ve passed your Degree (lots of options are open to you), but while taking your Degree you will get an opportunity to explore you options in the NHS e.g. you look for a job that your level of Degree covers.
It’s a complete contrast to when the NHS was set up from scratch in 1948 in just six months, four months of which was spent by the Labour (socialist) Government battling the Conservative Party and the House of Lords to get the Bill through Parliament, and in fighting the medical profession (against great opposition) for them to agree to become Government employees rather than private doctors. Then the Labour Government had just a couple of months to create hundreds of NHS hospitals and recruit hundreds of thousands of nurses; achieved by a massive public campaign to encourage housewives to become nurses, with just basic training e.g. making beds, caring for people (as they do when their children are ill at home), and cleaning etc., all basic skills that a typical housewife and mother would already have.
When I was rushed to hospital in an ambulance a few years ago, and spent three weeks there; when the doctor made his rounds each morning he was often followed by several student doctors (studying for their Degree), and quite often he would let them try their hands at diagnosis etc. (under his close supervision), and the student doctors would ask me lots of questions, and make loads of notes in their exercise book – very much like the old British TV comedy Series from the 1970s ‘Doctor in the House’. And when I rang the emergency bell above my bed to ask for a hot milky coffee or hot chocolate (I was allowed 7 a day while in hospital), sometimes it would be a student nurse that got me the drink (it’s all part of his or her (on the job) training to pass their university degree!).
CORE SUBJECTS
Yeah, I often here about this ‘Majoring’ in college and or university in American films and by Americans on forums. It’s a terminology we don’t use in the UK, because when you go to college or university it’s to do a specific subject from day one; albeit, one reason for going to college is to get the necessary qualifications to allow you into university.
In the UK you don’t need any qualifications to go to college, but you can’t get into university without a minimum of 2 ‘A’ levels (or equivalent), which must include ‘English’ & ‘Maths’ (the core subjects). English and Maths are the two core subjects; without those there is no way you can get into university; but they don’t have to be at ‘A’ (Advanced) level – passing your English and Maths at GCSE (Ordinary) level at school is sufficient for access to university.
So in the UK college is the stepping stone for getting the necessary qualifications for university, so that when you get to university you already have the necessary qualifications and your core subjects (English and Maths); so in university you can start on your chosen subject from day one (what I guess is what you call your major in the USA) – hence why the university courses are shorter in the UK than the USA.
Where there is a distinction between what universities accept in the UK is in the ‘grades’ e.g. Cambridge and Oxford universities will only accept students who pass their ‘A’ level exams with top marks (Grade A) e.g. Cambridge and Oxford only take the crème de la crème; whereas most other universities will accept anybody with any pass mark of any grade; as long as it’s a pass mark in their exams.
On leaving school, my son decided that he wanted to go to university, with the idea of become an IT professional; and although he passed his GCSE in maths at school, he didn’t pass his English e.g. he’s dyslexic (like me) which makes English more difficult; I think it’s hereditary in our family?
So in going to college, he took English again at college, and also took a BTEC course (equivalent to 2 ‘A’ levels) in Multimedia Computing and IT Practitioners System Support, which he passed. At the same time he was also in the air-cadets, and with them did a couple of other BTECs (each worth 2 ‘A’ Levels) in Public Services and Aviation Studies; and also (at the age of 16 he got his gliders licence with the air-cadets). And while with the air cadets he also got his Duke of Edinburgh Award https://youtu.be/ctfn4BeI38c
However, when it came to going to university, our son changed his mind on his career path, and decided that instead he wanted to be a professional photographer; so he opted to do a BA (Bachelor of Arts) with (Hons) Degree course at university in ‘Creative Media Practice, and Media Production’.
Likewise, because I have dyslexia, although on leaving school (final exams) I got a maths equivalent in my ‘O’ levels (GCSE), I couldn’t pass English (a requirement for joining the civil service). So on leaving school I was taken on in the civil service on probation, on the understanding that I would go to college on day release to get my English; which I did. To edge my bets I opted to do both English Literature and English Language, I only need to pass one to become a permanent civil servant; although I was really chuffed when I passed both, especially as I got quite a high grade passed in both e.g. a ‘B’ – which did surprise me.
Those two English courses just took up half a day, in the morning (on day release), so to make it a full day at college, I also did Human Biology GCSE, which was taught in the afternoon – which I also passed.
On completion of those 3 subjects, and passing the exams, I then continued with day release for another two years to get my ONC in Business Administration (equivalent to 2 ‘A’ levels), which helped me to get promotion at work from Admin to lower management in the civil service.
It’s been interesting in comparing the similarities and differences between the UK & USA.Yes, as shown through our discussion higher education is approached with differences in requirements and it appears time to obtain recognition. I tend to think the government is much more involved there than here on a national level as is with many topics.
Yes, we have some professions with required certification processes that require certain degrees for licensing, i.e., doctor, lawyer, nurse, and on and on, but that is by state, not on a national basis.
As a side note, one reason for doing core classes in the first two years is that a major does not need to be declared until before the third year in most cases. That gives one time to explore what to declare as a major and minor if wanted.
However, like my niece, she chose her major, speech pathology, in high school. That gave her the advantage to take lower classes for it as in elective courses for required core classes like sciences. Plus, she took advanced classes from college/university while in high school. She has always been a 4.0+ student the whole experience with honors at graduation just like her mom. Her mom has a doctorate in Education.
Using myself. once I got the core classes out of the way I was able to get two Associate of Arts degrees. The second one was in Sociology and Behavior Sciences and I only needed to take the pertinent ones for that degree. Going full time I accomplished that in a year's time. I can also get a certification as a drug and alcohol counselor with a state license if I go back and take that class regimen. Mainly that is work experience.Yep, as you noted; the governments in the UK are far more involved on a more national level than in America; which I guess being a smaller country should be no great surprise.
Yep, that seems to be the main difference, is that in the UK you start (what you call your major) from day one in university; so in the UK you do need to be clear in your mind what Degree you want to study when applying for your university course – as once you start your Degree it’s very difficult (but not impossible) to change direction. I guess the pros and cons of that is that: Pro, the British system means your Degree course is shorter (less time at university); and con, it’s difficult to change your mind, and change direction, once you’ve started your Degree.
In any event, the different approaches in the USA & UK both work well, and suit the students studying; and I’m sure it’s the same in most countries around the world.I agree with what you shared, Nathan!! I agree that all countries may do it differently while they may model notable countries like the U.S. and U.K. Since I have an interest in Sweden where a Dear Friend lives I have looked into their education system somewhat over the years for all grades through university.
Theirs is closer to the U.K. than the U.S. Maybe it is an E.U. and U.K. thing. They get a lot of international students as well as people who move there to work. A newsletter called the Local I receive online for Sweden and another for Europe always has articles about migration for school and work. There is a lot about Brexit too and its effect in different countries.
Here is a link to it if curious. At the top left is where you can view all the different publications they have. The three-line thingy.
https://www.thelocal.com/
A quote from an article I will post next is;
"At Swedish public universities, students who are citizens of the EU/EEA, other Nordic countries, and Switzerland do not have to pay any tuition for Bachelor's and Master's degrees. PhD courses are free for all international students, regardless of their country of origin."
The article is mainly about costs, yet has links to recommended learning institutes. The article is:
Study in Sweden: Tuition Fees and Living Costs in 2023
https://www.mastersportal.com/articles/ … -2023.htmlThanks for your feedback and the links, and sorry for not replying more promptly, but in between doing work in our back garden (good whether at the moment) and other tasks, I wanted to have a good read of the ‘Local’ the Swedish online newspaper, including what they had to say about Brexit.
Normally, to keep tabs on European current affairs I like to watch Euronews, a News channel based in France that has an audience of over 170 million Europeans, including in the UK. My favourite on Euronews is their ‘No Comment’ section e.g. videos of current events around the world without any commentary, leaving it up to you to make your own interpretation of what you!
This short video is a compilation of Euronews ‘No Comments’ of the week a year ago: https://youtu.be/S4xs_KQVJmM
Nevertheless, I found your Swedish newspaper (which you have mentioned in other forums) very gripping; and found it to be an excellent news source for European current affairs, for example it’s report on Brexit was spot on e.g. the British Conservatives blaming the French for the 16 hours delay in the UK to get to France, as they would; while, as correctly explained by the Port of Dover CEO its caused by Brexit – which was predicted in official reports published at the time when the UK Government was trying to force Brexit through Parliament in 2019 – Reports which the UK Government tried to suppress, but was forced to release by a court order when the Government was taken to court by Parliament.
As you’ve probably heard on the news Brexit is causing up to 17 hours delay at Dover for holiday makers trying to get to France – All of which was predicted when the Tory Government was trying to force Brexit through Parliament back in 2019.
But one bit of good news yesterday, in relation to the 16 hours delays at the port of Dover. The owner of the gay nightclub in Bristol recently raised donations for humanitarian aid for Ukraine, and raised enough money to fill two large vans full of supplies. So, rather than just give it to charity the gay nightclub owner decided to drive the supplies to Ukraine in person.
Before going he had Humanitarian Aid for Ukraine painted on his van, and put donations buckets in the van to collect more money on the long journey from Bristol to Ukraine.
The good news is that on his approach to Dover the police spotted his van, and seeing the sign ‘Humanitarian Aid for Ukraine’ printed on the side of the van, offered to give him a police escort all the way to the port. So he had a police escort, bypassing the 16 hours of queues e.g. being escorted by the police to the front of the long queue, and on arriving at the port the British border control just waved him onto the ferry without doing any of the border checks, and on the other side the French border control, likewise, just waved him on his way, without carrying out any of their border checks – so yesterday (when he Facebooked us) he was already in France, and making good progress towards Ukraine.
And when he gets back, he’s got another round trip to make; and maybe a third from all the donations he’ll get in his donation buckets that he’s taken on his long journey.
Thanks for sharing your to the ‘Local’ Swedish newspaper – an interesting read.
I also found the other link interesting; and looking at the costs, they are broadly similar to the UK e.g. food and drink etc. except that perhaps accommodation costs and transport in the UK are about double to the Swedish costs.The owner of the gay nightclub definitely embarked on a noble cause! I wish him luck on this journey and those that follow. Very cool of the police to escort him. I hope he receives more cooperation like that on his journey.
Yes, I like The Local. Unfortunately like most online magazines after reading a certain amount they ask you to register while offering a subscription. I subscribe to The Local for Sweden and Europe.
It has given me a light for you and the other Europeans here in these forums. I think it is good to have knowledge of the pulse of Europe since they are allies and trade partners. With my friend in Sweden I at times know more about what is going on than she does.Thanks, yep it is a very noble cause; the owner of the gay nightclub is a close family friend, so he’s keeping in touch with us (my wife) via Facebook. One correction to my previous post, the words “Humanitarian Aid for Ukraine” is actually removable stickers that you stick on your van (not paint as I previously said). In his Facebook post to use yesterday, he’d reached Germany and was heading for Poland; but while in Germany he was advised by the authorities to remove the stickers before entering Poland, as there had been a spate of hijackings in Poland, targeting ‘humanitarian aid’ – but once he crosses the border into Ukraine (which I guess will be today) it will be safe to put stickers back on.
I find it frustrating when access is restricted to online magazines, and other news sources, if you don’t register and pay their subscriptions – so far I’ve avoided doing so, and just relied on the free sources.
I agree that it’s good to lean about each other’s cultures – and likewise, I like to keep to keep a pulse on America; and in that respect, I find these forums seems to be a good source of information to get a better understanding of American culture and politics – although I’ve still got a lot to learn.
That is really interesting. I quite often see people talking about "going to university", but I never see them talk about "going to college" like we do. When we talk about it, we usually put an article in front of "university" as "in the university," but we say "in college." Also your description of being in the hospital is like our teaching hospitals here. My husband is a veteran so he gets his medical care free at the VA hospital (John L. McClellan Memorial Veterans Administration Hospital). The campus or complex as it may be called is right next door to the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, the state's medical school. A few years ago the two joined together for certain departments that the VA didn't have such as major surgical. My husband has had a couple of major surgeries such as heart bypass and surgery for an abdominal aortic aneurism. His surgery was done by teams from UAMS, and the medical students followed the doctors around as part of their training. He described it as "all the little ducklings following the big duck around."
Thanks for your feedback; it’s good to hear that hospitals and universities can also partnership in America – It makes good sense, and is such a natural partnership e.g. in Britain most NHS hospitals like to have close ties with the universities near them, not just for the benefit of student nurses and doctors, but because also it gives the NHS a rich source to tap into for R&D (Research and Development), something universities are good at e.g. the technological development of the world’s first test tube baby by the NHS, Louise Brown in 1978.
I like your description at the end of your feedback, so apt: “all the little ducklings following the big duck around."
At one time I had a little problem with that, too, especially the perks given to the student athletes and the salaries paid to the coaches, for instance, $1,000,000 to a head coach v. maybe $50,000 to a history professor (if that much). But then it was brought out that athletic programs at many of the universities paid for themselves, and also paid for those perks and exorbitant salaries of the coaches. The athletics also benefitted the universities because they held the interests of some of the private big donors to the public universities.
Thanks for the feedback – it makes sense to me now.
The situation in the UK is quite different; in the UK, if you are not ‘professional’ you are on your own e.g. the financial burden for the cost of your sport falls on your parent’s shoulder.
Sport England, an independent Government Department does offer around £250 million ($300 million) a year to help people play sport and take part in physical activity, and will award grants of between £300 ($370) and £15,000 ($18,000) to support sporting projects, especially if they are projects working with people in disadvantaged communities.
So, unlike the USA, there is no financial incentive for colleges and universities in the UK to promote sports.
One classic example is from my own personal experience when I worked with Fred Cousins in the civil service in the 1980s. One of Fred Cousins sons, Robin Cousins, first got interested in ice skating at the age of six, and liked it so much that from that time onwards his parents scarified a lot of their time, devotion and money to allowing, and encouraging Robin Cousins to pursue his desires for ice skating.
Robin Cousins won his first national title in 1969, aged 12; and by the age of 14 he was Britain’s junior champion.
Robin Cousins left school and home at the age of 16 (1974) to move to London, where he took a job stacking shelves at a department store to pay for his ice skating training. He won the British National Senior Championships for four consecutive years (1977–1980); the free skating portion of the World Championships three times (1978–1980); and the silver medal at the World Championships in 1979 and 1980.
Robin Cousins went professional in 1980 after winning gold in both European Championships and in the Winter Olympics in that year. Needless to say we had the TV news film crew in the office where I worked to film Fred Cousins opening a bottle of Champaign with his work colleges in celebration.
In going professional he landed contracts worth $millions; and within a few months of going professional he bought a large detached home in the countryside for about $1million, for his parents; as a thank you for all the sacrifices they made in supporting him in his chosen vocation – Conveniently timed, as Fred Cousins (who I worked with) was coming up to retirement age, at 60.
Robin Cousins Figure Skating Gold | Lake Placid 1980 Medal Moments https://youtu.be/XmeohxAYKv4
Right! There are lots of academic scholarships available in the U.S. I can remember only one year when i didn't have a scholarship or two, and that was when I returned to college at age 45 to finish a degree I had started and then dropped out. The next year I had scholarships again all the way through including my masters degree. None of them were full ride because at my age, I didn't need that much financial help. Both family and friends have had children with full ride scholarships, including one young lady right now who is attending Johns Hopkins University.
We give both. Some students get merit scholarships for the academic prowess, some athletic scholarships for their achievements on the field.
Yeah, it's something I need to get my head around; as I said to Tim; the idea of giving sports scholarships just seems a little strange to me because I see universities as a place to learn (academic), and not a place to play sports?
Not in this country. Universities have deteriorated to a combination of play time and political activism by the left. Actual education is on the back burner, while entertainment takes center stage.
There is money is college sports, particularely basketball and football. That has to drive some of it.
But anti-intellectualism is evident in your comment attacking universities in general.
Truly intelligent and open minded people who universities and places of higher learning promote usually fall in the liberal/progressive category. Unless, you attend Bob Jones or Liberty University.....Odd how I would never have guessed that you would think that all the intelligent people are liberals.
Yes, there is money in college sports. At least if you are in the top colleges in the country; if not those sports programs are a tremendous sponge for funding.This is true. The highly intelligent tend to be more liberal &/or progressive than average. There is a correlation between above average intelligence & political affiliation, not to mention sociocioeconomic class. The upper middle class tend to be far more liberal & progressive than the solidly middle class who tend to be more moderate. The lower middle class tend to lend to the conservative side of the political spectrum.
The more affluent socioeconomic classes i.e. the upper middle & upper classes raise their children to be thinkers & innovators while the solidly middle class raise their children to be conformists & the lower middle class raise their children to be obedient submissives. The poor raise their children to be mere slaves of the system.I think you're confusing "intelligent" with "educated". Or perhaps equating them as the same thing.
They are not. Particularly when we have tens of thousands of fools coming out of 4 years of schooling without any job prospects because they failed to learn anything useful.That is a very opinionated statement on your part. There is a correlation between education and intelligence, even if it is not exact. College and education is not always about jobs, Wilderness. The job market demand for certain sorts of graduates changes frequently.
College graduates consistently do better than those who are not in our economy. While just having a degree may not have the significance that it once did, you are stlll ahead of the power curve.
Your definition of "useful" is open to question.+10000000-the more advanced education one receives, the better off h/she is. College graduates do SO MUCH better & have FAR MORE opprtunities than high school graduates. However, those with advanced degrees have the best chances in life.
Maybe we should listen to Steve Jobs who talks on (YouTube) about the value of mentoring, working, learning on the job and about following one's own heart/mind in acquiring appropriate education and job skills. The young adults of today do not need higher degree diplomas from colleges and universities which have merely kept them out of the job market for four and beyond years.
And also has indoctrinated them into a system of higher taxation.
It is simple really:
Liberals are for higher taxation while Conservatives are not.
The smarter people realize the wisdom of controlling their own money.
End of story.
Yes, the two have a correlation. What they do not have is a causal effect: intelligence does not equal education and education certainly does not equal intelligence.
While it is true that the profoundly unintelligent cannot be truly educated, the average person can earn a degree. That degree is NOT proof, or even indication, of high intelligence.
YEP
.... and in this day and age:
Twelve plus Four years.
(12+4 = 16 years, BTW)
But hasn't sports played a major role in universities in the USA for decades; at least that the perception we get on the other side of the pond from American movies (new and old); the impression on this side of the pond is that sports, and what you call entertainment taking centre stage, is something that has existed in USA universities for a very long time, and seems to be supported by right wing politics just as much as left wing politics in America?
It has. And it has grown and continues to grow.
But sports is not the only entertainment offered by colleges - there is a constant stream of entertainment for the students. Paid for by both tuition and taxes. Personally, I have no desire to provide the fun and games students demand.It’s the reverse situation in the UK.
Prior to the mid-1990s not only was university free in the UK, but students also got paid to go to university (to cover their living expenses): So those were the days where teenagers would go to university to have an cushy life for 3 years, doss around having fun, drinks, parties, sex, rather than focusing on study – You see this portrayed in many British TV comedy, and comedy films of the era, such as the popular ITV Comedy Series of the 1970s, ‘Doctor in the House’ & ‘Doctor at Large’ (University students doing their medical degree for the NHS): https://youtu.be/28NAnzXlK3g (Series 1 - Episode 13 Pass or Fail).
Of course, with abolition of the student grants, and the introduction of student fees in the mid 1990’s it now focuses the mind e.g. teenagers these days (in the UK) go to university to study; and they study hard.I think this is nonsense Nathan.
It's far too easy to say if you don't have to pay for uni you will be lazy and not study. So you better pay.
Don't you understand that this idea is a fake reason? Supported by comedy, which you apparently see for reality.
You are supporting a class system with this way of thinking.
To portray and think that people from poor families who got a grant got lazy and just smoked pot is simplistic and doesn't do just to those people who worked hard and were lucky to get the opportunity to study.
An opportunity that poor kids have less and less nowadays! Thanks to the system that supports the idea that if you pay for your study you work harder. That's crap. Boris Johnsen and the upper class couldn't give a dime about the money spent on uni. Money for them had no value. They did not have to fight and proof themselves worthy for a grant!!As a socialist I totally agree with you that there isn’t a direct link between universities being free and people using them for an easy ride; Scotland is a prime example of where university education is free, and where students do take it seriously to become well qualified. I was perhaps being a little glib in giving a simplistic response to wilderness.
Nevertheless, my previous statement wasn’t complete nonsense: For sure back in the 1970s when all universities were free in the UK most students did take their studies seriously; but there was a large minority who didn’t, and all the British comedies of those times did was just reflect this – which is what made them humorous e.g. people of that era could relate to them.
On reflection, I suspect the situation I described had more to do with the tail end effect of the hippy era of the 1960s. I was a bit too young for the hippy period, but 1970s Britain is something I remember well, because that was my teenage era; out every weekend in the pubs and nightclubs to the early hours of the morning – meeting and mixing with plenty of university students out having a good time, as Bristol is a university city.
Like you, I don’t agree with university fees, I believe university education should be free, like it used to be in Britain. However, unlike the USA (making assumptions on the USA system before I read Tim’s comprehensive reply to me on this subject) the university fee system doesn’t disfranchise the poor in the UK because ‘all’ can claim ‘student loans’ to pay the fees, and only those who earn high wages after getting their degree have to pay it back – and any outstanding debt is written off when you retire. For example, my wife had a student loan to pay for your university fees (as an adult student) in the 1990’s, and although she used her Degree to get a well-paid Admin job, she never reached the threshold for repayment, so it was all written off when she took early retirement at 60, without her every paying a penny back. And likewise, our son has an outstanding ‘student loan’ from when he did his University degree over 10 years ago; and he hasn’t paid a penny of it back yet.Yes I understand where you're coming from but you also have to understand that by painting the students who don't pay for there study as lazy, which simply is not true, you give people a pretext and a false argument to say: High university fees are good because only then the student will work.
Even better students should work for their student fee while studying.....
Don't fall into that trap. Be careful with spreading this image as it is a well-wrought fake argument used by conservatives.
The hippies were characterized as fools. As they were seen as a danger for society. And rightly so, as they refused to be another brick in the wall. But they fought for the freedom of speech, feminism, open debate, loosen up the taboo on sex and sex education. The '60 and '70 where a reaction on the narrow minded '50.
And there was less of a wage gap in the '70 in income than today! (Is my impression)
Just googled...When adjusted for inflation, the 2022 federal minimum wage in the United States is around 40 percent lower than the minimum wage in 1970.....
I bet this is more or less the same for the UK and Europe...
For governments, it was a hell. All these freedoms people wanted. Thatcher and Reagan wanted nothing more than a tight control over its citizens. The ban on drugs and freedom was a huge political agenda for the conservative governments.
Nevertheless I enjoyed The good life too.Yep, point taken; and I can’t fault anything you say e.g. give a conservative an inch and they’ll take mile to blow it out of all proportion (distort the facts to suit them).
Where you say “…another brick in the wall...” – Taking your comment out of ‘context’, that happens to be one of my all-time favourite music videos (by Pink Floyd) and lots of hidden messages in it to; entertaining, and quiet appropriate for this forum: - https://youtu.be/YR5ApYxkU-UYes Pink Floyd hit it spot on.
Hé, Teachers....Leave those kids alone.
A great example of the rebellion and pop music of those days.
I'm not really into the pop music of today, but I have the idea that it is far less political.
I think we really could need some pop stars supporting the idea that there is no planet B.
Thanks for the video link..I agree
- These days the only Radio Station I listen to, when I'm on the computer, or down in my DIY workshop, is Boom Radio; launched in Britain during the pandemic by DJs from the Baby Boomer generation, for the Baby Boomer generation - And rather than having a central radio station its operated by Baby Boomer DJs from their own homes across the country; linked into a central hub via the Internet that stores thousands of tracks from that era: So all they play all day and night is predominantly just music from the 1950s to the 1970s.
Boom Radio - David Hamilton & Graham Dene https://youtu.be/dxqz93_2jnoMy morning routine is at 5 am I come to my PC and fire it up. I do a daily devotional of some kind centered on spirituality. Then I go to Pandora an online site for music like Spotify. I think Pandora was on the scene first. There is a free version, which I use, and a paid version. I put on my favorite programmed radio station.
You can program stations by picking and choosing artists/bands for a station. They will also add similar music to the type you programmed. I have three and my favorite is titled Walk-n-Talk Radio. It is Progressive Rock favorites, blues guitar, and favorite guitarist.
Another one titled Home Bound Radio is late sixties and seventies rock, soft rock, and ballads by different artists. I like that one too, but I need to be in a mood for it.
Walk-n-Talk radio is kinda' free thinking music that may inspire me one way or another is good to listen to while researching this and that. Some of the progressive rock is Pink Floyd, Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, Kansas, Jethro Tull, and Mike Oldfield.
After I have that station is on I read and respond to emails. And, read news letters. Then bring up Facebook and HubPages and play until 10 am and head to watch my favorite morning game shows.Interesting; I too get up at around 5am (a couple of hours before my wife gets up).
As an atheist, I obviously don’t do the spiritual thing like you do; instead I grab a cup of coffee and waddle off down to my workshop for about half an hour, contemplating my navel, just to get the brain cells going. Then, refreshed and alert, I’ll go on the computer to check the emails, and do any Admin jobs on the computer, such as home finance, updating my daily ‘to-do’ list etc. Then around 10am start my daily tasks e.g. DIY, Gardening, household chores etc., popping back to the computer periodically (for a break) to deal with any correspondence etc.
At about 4:30pm I’ll start preparing the day’s evening meal, to serve-up at around 5:30pm; and then spend the rest of the evening with the family in front of the TV (Family Quality Time).
For the music I just use DAB radios, one in the home office and one in the workshop e.g. just switch in on, and instant music from the 1950s to 1970s. Obviously there are a Plethitude of radio stations (all free) to choose from on the Internet, and on the TV; but for simplicity I just use the DAB radio.
I like your taste in music, Mile Oldfield, Tubular Bells, being a favourite of mine; I also like his sister’s music (Sally Oldfield) e.g. Mirrors.
DAB Radio is a type of Digital Radio we get in Europe; my understanding is that you don’t have DAB in the USA because it uses the same frequencies used by the USA Military! Although, my understanding is that you do a range of other digital radio services including Internet and satellite radio; neither of which we get in Europe, because it’s all covered by DAB.
https://youtu.be/GD7UhbAJuRAInteresting about DAB Radio. I only listen to the radio in the car and it is FM. Yes, there are satellite radio here. Like Sirus and many more.
I am a big fan of Oldfield for many years. My favorite is Secrets/Far Above the Clouds. The link next is a YouTube live performance of it. It is around 9-1/2 minutes. Very few lyrics, but impactful I think you will relate to them a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8UAlSpIpgICool, the first thing I noticed in watching the video, was Richard Branson in the audience; and yes I loved the music video – brilliant: Thanks for sharing.
What I like about the DAB radio, apart from the fact that you don’t frequency drift, is that they all have a display panel on the front (which I assume is the same with Internet Radios in America) which gives you the time, name of the radio station, track and artist, and any other text information the radio station wants to transmit.
That statement is kind of an oxymoron. So far I haven't seen dumbing down by the left. It is the right who are being brought kicking and screaming into the Aquarian Age. They are the ones complaining about what is being taught both scientifically and socially while trying to interject religion and politics into academia.
Fascism/Far Right doesn't like intellectualism.
Religion doesn't like intellectualism.
Two political factions that have followers in abundance in the US.
For years on end the US has cultivated and worshiped violence.
If you look at the Hollywood movies over time you see the mirror of the US society.
Muscle and physical beauty is propagated. (Bay Watch, the Botox and plastic surgery industry..together with the Porn industry)
Violence and Machoism too (Rambo, Die Hard, etc..)
All this propaganda has shaped the American and European mindset.
The US has the highest rate of people who believe in conspiracy theories. pseudo-science. It's not surprising that the political movement QANon was born in the US.
That's why the voter fraud conspiracy theory was and is so easily believed.
And why people still believe the Climate Crisis is a hoax.
Why the IQ and expected years of life is in decline?
Simple. Food.You can see the obvious consequences of the fast food culture. Nothing in moderation, everything has to be big and fast.
Stress and poverty are other factors that help to shorten the lives of people and lower the IQ.
It's a complex system why the US is now in an identity crisis. And you have to ask a historian and a sociologist this.
And how to value intellectualism again?
Bridge the gap between the poor and super-rich. Make a bigger middle class.
Education is the key. Better education for more people.Yep, that's my general perception of the USA too.
I can't fully agree with what was proposed while noting IQ drop is not a U.S. problem alone, it is global. Taking a quick peek and grabbing the first article it states from a new study, yes, IQ has dipped 2 - 3 points in recent years, but after a rise of 30 points. And, it depends on what type of IQ is being studied - logic, vocabulary, visual and mathematical problem-solving and analogies.
American IQs rose 30 points in the last century. Now, they may be falling.
https://fox5sandiego.com/news/national- … e-falling/
One paragraph grabbed my attention;
"Researchers across the globe have been tracking an apparent decline in human IQs, starting around the turn of the millennium. Theories abound as to why scores are dropping, but the smart money says our cognitive skills may have plateaued, teetering into an era of intellectual lethargy."
Another interesting article, How has intelligence testing changed throughout history?, present the history of IQ tests and ends with a discussion of nature vs nurture that perhaps my lead to controversy
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/10/ … t-history/
As far as the value of intellectualism comparing today with yesterday I am inclined to say it has risen said from gut, but as all personal reflections there is no right or wrong, there is only new information that may offer opportunity to change my gut to an intellectualized view.
The reason for my gut reaction is today I have witnessed through TV kids saying they want to be an astronaut rather than a fireman. I have seen in the news many middle school and high school students shown doing STEM activities. Many on girls. In schools they have robotics clubs and classes in high school. Another example is my nephew in high school takes college classes online.The opening scenes (below) in the film ‘Idiocracy’ (2006 American science fiction comedy film) does offer one school of thought to your question!!!
IDIOCRACY Opening Scene (2006): https://youtu.be/sP2tUW0HDHAA yes, I remember that movie. Like a proper sci-fi movie it is forecasting the future. I had to think about this movie a lot during the Trump era (and the Johnson era.)
Its not all societies I am sure... but it certainly represents the direction America is going.
There was a time when the focus was on STEM (Science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) ... today it has shifted toward Social Justice (females) and Financial fields (males).
The percentage of graduates in engineering sciences, information technology as well as natural & mathematical sciences have all gone down across both men and women.
Collectively, they accounted for 44.5 percent of degrees among male graduates of all ages in 2020, down from 51.6 per cent in 2010 and just 20.2 per cent among women, down from 25.1 per cent a decade ago.
This decline is even more severe when considering women make up over 60% of graduates today, the highest it has ever been, and that this follows a similar drop seen from 2000 to 2010.
As the amount of graduates in higher education shift towards women, so to, does the focus of those degrees shift towards Humanities and away from STEM.
This does not bode well for our future, innovation is not a domain of finance executives and Social Justice workers but engineers, designers, and scientists.Fascinating, thanks for your feedback and data; I haven’t formulated any opinions on this subject, but over the last couple of days I have been digging on the web to see if I could make any UK comparisons with the data you’ve presented for America – summary below:
For simplicity, where you say “percentage of graduates in engineering sciences, information technology as well as natural & mathematical sciences”, I will just use the word ‘science’.
The 1st chart shows percentage of graduates studying in Science related subjects (as defined above) by gender, in accordance with the data you gave – to give a comparison between USA & UK (the UK data is for 2022).
The 2nd chart presents the same data is as a percentage of the whole for the UK; for the USA I took 60%, based on your reference “women make up over 60% of graduates in the USA) to extrapolate a comparison for the USA.
Yep, based on the data you gave me, after having compiled the data into the charts below I can see your concerns.
Looking at your second point e.g. trends. The trend in the UK doesn’t seem to be a sharp as in the USA e.g. in England and Wales in 2021 20.4% of the population over the age of 5 was in full time educations e.g. school, college and university – this is down just 0.1% over the previous 10 years (down from 20.5% in 2011).
Other data that might be pertinent to this discussion is that in England and Wales:-
• 18.2% of all adults over the age of 16 in England & Wales have no qualifications – the uneducated (very poor literacy skills).
• 33.8% of all adults over the age of 16 in England & Wales have ‘Degrees’ (or similar qualifications) – the well-educated.
I don’t know how this compares with the USA?
Revised:
"According to a study done by scientists at Northwestern University and University of Oregon, in America, there is a decline in IQs among the less educated 18-22 age group. Perhaps this development is due to a culture of anti-intellectualism. For instance, athletes and celebrities are valued over scholars, intellectuals, scientists."
"Perhaps the answer can be found by noting the political parties adopted by these varying classes of Americans. For instance, there is a correlation between above average intelligence and political affiliation and/or socioeconomic class. The highly intelligent and the upper middle class tend to be liberal and progressive. The middle middle class tends to be moderate and conservative and the lower middle class tends to be conservative.
Furthermore, the upper class and the upper middle class raise their children to be thinkers & innovators, while the middle middle class raise their children to be conformists. The lower middle class raise their children to be obedient and submissive. The poor raise their children to be slaves of the system."
https://www.davidsongifted.org/gifted-b … ng-people/
______________________________________
I believe this explanation is flawed and not based on actual facts. Perhaps it is wishful thinking on behalf of the writer.
Q. What can be done to force us to value intellectualism? (One wishes.) no answer
Q. Are Americans becoming less intelligent?
A. No.
Americans are not "becoming less intelligent" because Americans are very intelligent people. They are born with many advantages and live in a democratic republic which gives them independence and freedom of choice. This freedom promotes joy and interest in the world. They are ambitious in their pursuits and endeavors not only to survive, but live good, prosperous and successful lives.
These studies are nonsense and to believe the outcome of this so-called "research" is folly.
Whoever is funding this research is wasting their time and money.
Information like this dumbs us down.
Our educational system is to blame for any dumbing down because it does not value the individual or the parents of the individuals they judge, label and tyrannize.
And I believe the kids are going to benefit from getting out from under the yoke of so-called "intellectualism."Some people have no faith in their own abilities to survive and want/need the government to be mommy/daddy.
It would be interesting to study that group of poor souls.and somehow give them a hand-up
... not down.
~ and somehow prevent them from ending up so unprepared for life.~ that "somehow" would involve a good/appropriate education, K-12.
Set our youth free.
Let them have their own interests, motivations, dreams, goals and ambitions.
Find out what they are and facilitate them in family life and in school: K-16.
~ and I believe the internet has enabled a revolution in education! It has happened silently with no one even quite acknowledging it. Thanks to the wonderful internet and the participants of on-screen/line sharing, networking and marketing, we are becoming very intelligent and knowledgeable about so many things!
It's a great time to be alive.
Behold the future and embrace the abundance of our world.
Resist the Naysayers and Chicken Littles and Debbie Downers!
Resist the Downward Flow of the Steam of negative Consciousness.
Swim upstream, like energetic Salmon!
That's what we came to do.
and must do ...
Especially now.
I say.To foster a culture that values intellectualism, promoting education reform, emphasizing critical thinking in schools, and celebrating intellectual achievements in media can help. The reported decline in IQ may stem from various factors, like changes in education, technology, or societal values, making a nuanced assessment necessary check https://educatoroid.com/.
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