Indoctrination? Here is a example...
The Texas Senate just passed a law to put a copy of the 10 commandments into every classroom in the state. In terms of indoctrination, this not so subtle attempt to put their own religion in the faces of every child in the state is the literal definition of an indoctrination attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glviEKsVE3Y
Does this cross the line?No. It is freedom of speech. Why begrudge them?
it might work to instill morality and values so that the teachers can finally teach. If the parents and the pastors don't do it, someone has to!You are Damn right it crosses the line.
Damn conservatives, they insist in trying to run their hypocritical values down my throat.
In 1962 the court ruled against religious establishment in public schools.
They don't give up and they wont stop until we live in some sort of theocracy. Leave it to conservatives to be pigheaded enough not to learn a lesson taught over 60 years ago. A brisk refresher in civics might well be in order.
Thanks for presenting this as evidence of an ever encroaching and tyrannical political party.It DOESN'T cross the line. There is nothing wrong w/the 10 commandments being placed in public schools. They are just principles. My God, what are people AFRAID of?
The tablets as given to Moses, the highlight of Judeo-Christianity. Let me ask, you would accept similar principles from Islam or Buddhism principles as well, in their place?
I asked someone the same thing, and they ducked the question because the answer is obvious. They would lose their s**t if the roles were reversed.
If which roles were reversed? You mean if we found out that we were founded on Buddhist or Muslim principles, rather than biblical?
Why else would we place Buddhist or Muslim principles in our schools, when our founding had nothing to do with either?And our founding had nothing to do with Christianity either, hence why there is no mention of it in our Constitution. Meanwhile, the Declaration of Independence leaves things in very general terms:
The genius of the Declaration is the inclusive way the divine is given expression. The appellations of God are generic. Adherents of traditional theistic sects can read the words “Nature’s God,” “Creator,” and “Supreme Judge,” and understand them to mean the god they worship.
On top of that, our own U.S. Senate, in 1797, stated clearly that “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” The words appeared in the Treaty of Tripoli, written when George Washington was president, sent to the Senate by John Adams, who followed Washington as president. It was read aloud in the Senate and also printed for every senator. The senators voted unanimously to ratify, with no dissension noted in any record, and there is little evidence of any public complaints when the treaty was printed in three newspapers, in Philadelphia and New York City.Nice to see you back, AB. A good hiatus for you I hope?
This is a secular Democracy, no ones religious precepts are to be promoted by school administrators in public schools that all sorts of children with varied backgrounds attend. Keep your religion at home and in your churches. We all do not necessary share the same values or perspectives in this area. It would be so much better if you just stuck with reading, writing and arithmetic.I think you're restricting even more than I would say. I have no problem with people praying whenever they feel the need, even if it's in a public place. It's not anyone's business how people want to honor their faiths.
But this law is government dictating the public display of the tenets of one religion over all others. That I have issues with.I would never say that people/student can't express his or her or their faith as they wish, anywhere. The difference is that establishment (school officials) cannot direct or through placard put their seal of approval on a religious faith.
I would take offense at teachers directing prayers in the morning or having the 10 commandments placed in every classroom. This stuff is not done by students but by school administrators. That is inappropriate
I think that we are on the same course.
If only they just got the basics....but who demands sex ed. and trans ed. and proper pronouns and gender identity studies and reimagined history, etc. be taught to children.....
all while cringing at the thought of displayed biblical principles, which we absolutely were founded on!?
What's offensive about "Do Unto Others as You Would Have them Do Unto You", "Do Not Steal", "Do Not Kill"??
Nothing, nada.Don't forget 'Do not commit adultery.' That's totally a message those kindergartners need to see in their classrooms. It is, after all, one of your beloved ten.
It's a good one V, if you've vowed before God and witnesses to stay faithful to your spouse.
I have no problem listing the "beloved ten". Do you need me to?Why, do you think an agnostic like me does not know how to use Google search? Yeah, all those 5-year olds that have those spouses need to see that one. Clearly.
No, I would have stated such.
Yes, it is important for children to know that vows/promises/commitment, etc.... matter!Maybe put them up in every room in Mar-a-Lago instead. They seem more needed there.
This comment reveals a hatred of Trump.
I still don't get why he is so hated, when all he tried to do was get this country back on its feet, drain the swamp and see the economy percolate.
Something wrong with a percolating economy?
Something wrong with getting those out of the way who want to instill the very opposite of what they claim to advocate?
They talk about Democracy, while advocating socialism.
We all know it, we see the effect of it, yet they hate Trump who is against socialism, communism and anything MARX.Why is the favorite line for the right to accuse others of hating Trump? Many do not have respect for Trump because he's a liar, not a moral man, incites violence, tried to overturn a free and fair election, and so much more that are all negatives.
The blindness of the right to ignore all of the bad to claim that 'all he tried to do was get this country back on its feet' while the country was in the midst of record weeks of job growth and a stock market that had just doubled is ridiculousness. And yes, there is something wrong with percolating the economy by using deficits and trickle down economics that only favors the wealthy and has been shown to not pay for itself.
Then to make the false accusation that every Democrat just has to be a socialist. Democrats believe the government should use its resources to make the lives of its citizenry better, with an emphasis on those less fortunate who need more help. It's sad that so many label something so simple as socialism.Val, all for one and one for all --- is socialism. At least admit you know the concepts of socialism.
"Democrats believe the government should use its resources to make the lives of its citizenry better, with an emphasis on those less fortunate who need more help."
My gosh read your comment. People should make their own lives better.Actually, you just wrote the concept of the Three Musketeers. That you think my comment about government trying to help the less fortunate is the same as the Musketeers is just a wrong interpretation of someone else's beliefs - something we so often see from the far-right at this site.
Sure, people should make their lives better. Just as government should serve it's people. The Democrats believe government should aim to bring the poor to middle class while the GOP continues to put forth policy that serves the wealthiest Americans. My comment reads just how I want it to.
Because he's
"A liar:" How so?
"Not moral:"In what way?
"Incites violence:" How so?
"Tried to overturn a free and fair election": Prove it was fair with mail-in voting and computer voting machines as mandated by the unusual circumstances of the pandemic?
He "used deficits." ?
He used "trickle down economics:" AND?
"that only favors the wealthy." No it doesn't.
"and has been shown to not pay for itself." How "shown?"
"Democrats believe the government should use its (IT'S? ... you mean the peoples?) resources to make the lives of its citizenry better,
with an emphasis on those less fortunate (incapable of surviving on their own via individual independence)
who need more help." (Handouts )
Its a matter of the causes and effects of the policies.
We disagree on the causes and the effects of creating dependency via the welfare state and of the benefits of trickle down economics.I can't believe you actually just asked any of those questions. The answers are obvious to anyone who follows politics.
And you know what happens to people who are incapable of surviving on their own via individual independence that cannot get government assistance? They turn to crime. You know how many currently live in poverty in the United States? 37.9 million. That would be a ton of crime.Freedom facilitates joy of life. Excessive Taxation on any class limits freedom and joy of Life. Excessive restrictions, rules, insurances, fees on licenses, etc on any class limits freedom and joy of life. Limits on freedom in the market place and in the business world diminishes one's ability to earn a living and become independent and self-reliant.
Excessive taxation on the rich punishes them unfairly and causes them to leave town. What do they take with them?
Jobs.
YES!!!
Can we please post the Ten Commandments ALL over the D.C. Swamp!?!
But why can't parents be expected to do the job?
Perhaps it would be better to make available free parent education classes instead.
As soon as a couple has a child, they could take a class and learn about child development and the importance of introducing morals and guidelines to behaviors which contribute to a physically and psychologically healthy child.I agree, Parents are the first line of defense. Grandparents have great wisdom to offer.
But, many Grandparents are not involved in their grandchildren's lives (not like in the past) and, sadly, there are many 'Parents' more concerned about achieving their next high; they're incapable of taking care of themselves, much less their children.
Little positive messages throughout their hallways and classrooms, IMHO, can do no harm and may actually change a life for the better.
"What's offensive about "Do Unto Others as You Would Have them Do Unto You", "Do Not Steal", "Do Not Kill"?"
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Do you not think that similar precepts are represented by other religions that are not Judeo-Christian?
I did not say that I supported every crazy thing out there. But I insist that history be taught accurately and not be watered down. As V said, the Constitution was quite clear about no religious establishment. We all cannot be compelled to acknowledge any religious faith as "the religion". In America, there is no state religion.
I would not necessarily say that WE were founded on it, it is more like YOU were founded on it.
P.S. Thanks for the welcome back Cred, but I think I immersed, too soon!
Have any of you ever been to a Muslim majority country? The Koran is EVERYWHERE. There are no other religious teachings anywhere.
Leave it to Rightwingers in Texas who in the midst of gun violence massacres against children, believe that putting up a placard of the golden rule in every classroom is going to make it all better?
Islam has a similar version of ten Commandments. They have almost the same identical teachings. The Ten Commandments are part of Western civilization.
Just as conservative herald the 2nd Amendment as sacred and inviolate toward any attempt to circumscribe it, as a progressive, freedom of religion and from its establishment is my pet peeve. Teaching values of Western Civilization is different from a school administrator putting Moses' tablets in each and every classroom. That is not teaching but a form of conscious and subconscious indoctrination.
Since these qualities found in the 10 commandments and other religions are generally universal, take a secular, non religious approach to promoting and discussing them. For example, "There shall be no God before me" is an acknowledgement of religion. Why can't you simply keep your beliefs at home. Why do conservatives always want to hog tie people to believe what they believe?
Yes, it does cross the line. It would only be acceptable if every religion has the right to post their beliefs in the classroom. Realistically, since there are so many religions and spiritualities in the world, it would require a lot of wall space to post them all in a classroom. It wouldn’t be practical to advertise them all. In addition, some families may object to aspects of a particular religion’s beliefs. Therefore no advertisement should appear.
It should be left to families to discuss their beliefs with their children and to the children to decide when they are older whether they will continue to accept the beliefs or choose new ones.NO, I am not religious myself- FAR FROM IT; however, children need some type of morality teachings in school. Schools are too much out of control today. The Ten Commandments are just guidance principles after all. C'mn now people. The Senate DIDN'T say that children had to be religious.
I mean, its a severe and desperate cry for help!
Let them try for some type of harmony.
What the heck is wrong with the belief in a spiritual force / source of all creation.
All that has been created was created with love and awesome science.
Let the kids revere, acknowledge and contemplate the source of all science and creation! Let the schools help themselves!
Let the state help itself. There must be some serious problem in Texas that that they have gone to this extent.
But, is it constitutional in keeping the separation of church and state?
I think it is fine, and others children should be encouraged to hang plaques to honor their religion. Our children should have the right to celebrate religion and realize what faith can offer to one's life.
I see it as the same type of programming that Trump uses. Constant repetition to convince those who lack critical thinking skills to believe the reality he wants people to believe.
Second, this is from the same party that doesn't want to talk about sexual identity until certain ages, yet wants to put something on every wall of every classroom of every school that says 'Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery.'Val, I will be as kind as possible -- I really do not know how to respond to your comment. I am one of those who feel talking about non-traditional sexuality should not be discussed with children until they come into puberty. I think this is the appropriate time for that conversation.
You have brought up a good point in regard to "Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery"... Yes it is, in my view, a case of hypocrisy.
Could we take out those signs and put in some nice Buddha statues instead? They could celebrate Buddha and realize what faith in his teachings could give them.
Because this is a Judea Christian nation. We are the West. Buddhism is from the East.
Buddhism's Eight-Fold Path would be good on the classroom walls too.
But they voted on The Ten Commandments.
Any teacher who wants to put pictures of Christ and Buddha along with the Eight-Fold Path could.
And pictures and precepts of Krishna.
The kids would start to see that there is one God and many ways to travel toward his presence."Because this is a Judea Christian nation."
LOLOLOLOL Yeah - I hear that a lot. It is not true, but I hear it. Oddly, only from those that believe the Christian story, but I hear it.
Fact of the matter is that there IS no American religion; our Constitution makes that extremely clear.
I am in support of children being exposed to other religions. Asking questions, learning... Becoming well rounded in respect to the fact the world has many different religions.
I feel it is healthy for children to learn, except we are not all the same. Especially when it comes to religion. I think it helps them form the value of respecting others who are different and being able to mesh into a diverse society, without feeling they have an innate right to be prejudiced just due to having different religious beliefs.
It seems our society has lost the ability to solve very simple problems. Let all that want to hang a plaque that represents their religion do so.
Of course it is. As it is forcing a lifestyle and religion.
If they put next to it a poster with "God is science from the middle ages." and Religion is the reason for the majority of wars. (and many more nasty things can be said about what people have done in the name of religion.) Or something like that. Then perhaps things are more balanced.
It's clearly against the freedom of religion and choosing your own way of life.
Yes, it crosses the line, and in a very big way. My personal prediction is that if it becomes law (doubtful) it won't last a year - the law is quite clear on this and it is very much unconstitutional.
Now if they would also put up quotations from Mohammed and other religious figures from other religions they might get by with it (although I think it doubtful, myself). We all know that isn't going to happen, though.
When all said and done though, it looks like more of an effort to appease their idiot constituents without ever intending it to become law. Not uncommon today.Does anybody know what the Ten Commandments are? They are part of the Jewish religion and even the Muslim religion has a version of them.
School was a much safer place when teachers and students could actually pray.
No school shootings. Could that influence it? Could that be part of it?
Think of every day children looking at a sign that says, "Thou Shalt Not Kill."
I don't see the harm and can only see benefits.And the first four? Think of every day children in an atheist family looking at a sign that says "You shall have no other gods before Me". Think that might have some effect on their parents teachings?
Should we cater to the roughly 4 percent of the US or the other 96 percent?
Deleted
96%? Only about 70% of the population is Christian in this country while around 23% are unaffiliated and don't need your doctrines shoved down their throats.
Good thing the only place where this is happening is in the state of Texas. It seems the Ten Commandments is something they approve of people seeing.
+1000000000, the 10 commandments are just moral principles. Children need to have moral principles regardless of belief systems.
~ who the heck is josh zepess and who cares what he has to say?
Not me, for one.Ya know the first part of the sentiment you shared rings true. However, the second part insult every religion, and in my view, is a rather superficial unimaginative thought.
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Moral principles...like "Thou shall have no other gods than Me."
Teachers can still pray.
If only putting a sign on a school's wall would keep crazy people from getting guns.God does not allow killing, mayhem and murder.
Kids have a natural inclination to love God.
The Christian god was guilty of a great deal of mayhem and murder.
Man is guilty of a great deal of mayhem and murder.
By whom are morals taught?
Parents who have no religion?
Parents who have been raised by, and continue to perpetuate, the cult of Egotism?Or does religion teach bigotry and intolerance of those who do not follow the same religion that they do? Does religion teach an inflexibility of ideas?
Morally and ethcics are not necessarily associated with a specific religion. Which one of you would be open to tenets of the Koran, Buddhist or Shinto religions principles set up in the public schools? NO ESTABLISHMENT means that you keep your Judeo-Christian ideas and principles either at home or in your churches, and not have the institution inculcate those with alternate faiths and beliefs with them. I don't subscribe to them, necessarily, no more than kids can be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.The fact that Judeo-Christian concepts are placed in public schools that more often than not require compulsory attendance is indoctrination in itself and I loathe the Texas Republicans for trying to bring this in.
It is a sneaky way of saying that introducing a state religion is innocent. What continues to be a problem I have with conservatives, trying to get us all to adhere to their values and perspectives on things. I naturally am going to resist the very concept on its face.If everyone knew and followed the 10 Commandments, the world would be a better place.
Is there a particular commandment you dislike?Add an 11th commandment :The one that says that people should mind their own business....
The world is inundated with religions, cults, etc. Do you see a better place, or just more violence and contention?
So why cant we have other religion tenets or those by atheists and agnostics? Do you think that these other religions do not have heathy adages to post on the wall? Why do I have to go with your religion, if I am agnostic "I am not" this is just an example? How on a highly subjective subject like religion, one groups seem to want to guide and direct us toward their way of thinking?
The Constitution is clear, that they shall be no state religion, establishment means that the institution is promoting religious precepts. I don't want to be forced to either listen or adhere to them, I am there to be educated not proselytized.
The Damned Republicans that passed this bill may find it challenged in the Judicial System. The principles involved are as old as the Constitution itself, even the rightwing tribunal of a Supreme Court will have to step lightly before reversing precedent in its ruling over 60 years ago.Are you aware in Minnesota that they permit the Muslim call to prayer to be broadcast?
Mosques in Minneapolis will soon be allowed to publicly broadcast the adhan, or Islamic call to prayer, five times a day following a unanimous vote by the Minneapolis City Council to amend what constitutes a noise violation in the city's Code of Ordinances.
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/loc … 7a479bc1da
You can't teach about the Christianity in public schools, but in Minnesota, you can teach about Islam.
An Islam-related lesson in a World Geography
course offered at Riverheads High School. Specifically, students were
required to copy the Shahada, or Islamic Declaration of Faith, as part of a
secular academic exercise. The statement, written in Arabic, translated into: “There is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God.” In response, many parents complained that the school was indoctrinating their children under the guise of multiculturalism.
https://repository.uchastings.edu/cgi/v … aw_journal
SOOOOO...where is the outrage? This has been going on for a long time. This "indoctrination" doesn't bother the left, but posting the of the Ten Commandments set you into a rage?
Seems the left is as the left always is, hypocritical and believing in double standards.Deleted
So, then, it would be fair to have such academic studies cover the Jewish and Christian religions.
"Religious beliefs and practices shape events at home and abroad. In a diverse democracy and in an interconnected world, religious literacy is key to responsible citizenship."
I agree with you.
I oppose the Minneapolis municipal government accomodating any religion being allowed to supercede noise abatement ordinances.
So, I am not hypocritical at all, I don't accomodate religion from any source imposing on secular law from any standpoint.
I would oppose the "Call to Prayer" in Minneapolis just as fervently. Keep your religion quiet while at home or at your place of worship.
There is my OUTRAGE.
There is a difference in secular studies of a religion or religions from a clinical point of view verses those that proselytize toward acceptance of its tenets and worship.
I don't want indoctrination by Muslim, Christian or any othe religion. Anything taught about religion beyond a purely academic purpose is not appropriate in the public schools. That goes for Texas and for Minnesota, as well.
Hope that this clears things up for you a bit?The resolution received support from people of numerous faiths in the community, including Christian and Jewish leaders who spoke in favour of extending the hours at a recent public hearing.
Council Member Lisa Goodman, who on Thursday was observing the final day of Passover, said the Jewish call to prayer — which is generally spoken rather than broadcast — doesn't face legal restrictions. Observers said church bells regularly toll for Christians.Church bells are music.
The Muslim call to prayer states words about their religion for everyone to hear.
In Islamic tradition, Muslims are called to the five scheduled daily prayers (salat) by a formal announcement, called the adhan. The adhan is also used to call believers to Friday worship at the mosque. The adhan is called out from the mosque by the muezzin, who stands either in the mosque's minaret tower (if the mosque is large) or in a side door (if the mosque is small).
In modern times, the muezzin's voice usually is amplified by a loudspeaker mounted on the minaret. Some mosques play a recording of the adhan instead.
The English translation of the adhan is:
God is Great! God is Great! God is Great! God is Great!
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that there is no god except the One God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Hurry to the prayer. Hurry to the prayer.
Hurry to salvation. Hurry to salvation.
God is Great! God is Great!
There is no god except the One God.
https://www.learnreligions.com/what-do- … sh-2003812Ah, so it's ok to blast Christian 'music' into the community, but not a non-English prayer. No hypocrisy there.
Mike: I know. I lived in Saudi Arabia from 1990-94. I'm very familiar with prayer calls. And there are extra ones during Ramadan.
Readmikenow: Muslim Prayer Calls? Do church bells ring? Do some churches broadcast hymns on the hour? Yes, they do. If you want to prohibit what religious buildings can broadcast, prohibit all of them.
Thus endeth the lesson.
Val, you know your points would be hard to argue. They are based on common sense.
" What continues to be I have with conservatives, trying to get us all to adhere to their values and perspectives on things. I naturally am going to resist the very concept on its face."
Here is where the issue becomes sticky. Conservatives and liberals think very differently in regard to values and have very different perspectives on religion, as well as many other issues, all due to their values. One could say our very thought process is wired differently than liberals.
So here lies the problem. I think Mike pointed out a perfect example. Many that one could say lean left support non-traditional sexual issues. Which truely goes against many conservatives values.
Here is where our side pushed back, just like your side pushes back on issues such as religion in schools. Both sides have the right to their beliefs. And To be bold I might also say --- Non-traditional sexual issues have in recent years come to the forefront. We that are Christians formed views, and beliefs, for centuries in regard to that issue, through our religious teachings. So, would it not be somewhat normal that we feel our values in regard to our religion be respected?
It's clear that we all live on this earth, and we need to come about some way of meshing our values, ur beliefs. And be able to have the right to just agree to disagree, and work out suitable solutions to problems such as putting the 10 commandments in schools. I feel if Texas is hell-bent on doing this, it is only fair if anyone wants to add a plaque representing other religions be welcome to do so.Thoughtful comment, Sharlee.
No doubt in acknowledging that progressives and conservatives are light years apart as to how we each see things.
I lean left and support non-traditional sexual issues only to the point that everyone is to be treated equally. I personally do not subscribe to a lot of this, as I need to motivate myself to educate on this topic further before I can take a firm stand one way or the other.
I don't know enough about how far the transgender issue has gone to give you a cogent response. Perhaps, I can do better with another point outside the gender issue?
But I. Would say that Texas would never allow expressions of other than Judeo-Christian icons in the public schools. For conservatives, freedom of religion applies only to their preferred brand."But I. Would say that Texas would never allow expressions other than Judeo-Christian icons in the public schools. For conservatives, freedom of religion applies only to their preferred brand."
I agree, It appears the Texas Government is making a problem by even passing this law. In a time when we should be trying to heal a deep split, not deepening the split. If they desire to bring religious ideologies plaques into the schools, they should have made it clear all religions are welcome to add plaques that celebrate all religions. This law does stray from being fair in representing all individual's rights.
Not my thought, that was Cred's. but I'll chime in. Why do I need to respect your values in regard to religion - you get the freedom to respect them, that's what's important. Certainly, there will be some occasions where the values taught by your religion overlap the values taught generally to human beings.
Personally, I do not respect a religion that covers up the molestation of children by its clergy. I do not respect a religion that found it appropriate to burn other humans. Nor do I respect a religion that discriminates against people based on sexual orientation or gender identity - things baked into the interpretation and not necessarily the written word of the religion itself. Hate, violence, abuse - you will never find me following any religion that has these in their culture, even if they are not part of their value system.Just so. While there are religions that are not violent, neither of the two major Abrahamic religions are one of them. From the very beginning of the story violence, by God or ordered by God, is rampant. From punishing untold generations of innocent people for one person's transgressions (Eve) to the Crusades to the Inquisition to treatment of witches (and anyone else not Christian or Muslim) the primary focus has been on destruction and killing of those that did not bow down to the priesthood. It is not a religion that deserves my respect, either.
Modern times has tempered much of that, but the violence and intolerance still remains a big part of the religion.OK --- "Why do I need to respect your values in regard to religion - you get the freedom to respect them, that's what's important."
I think the most important word in your sentence is, respect. You offered why you don't respect a religion that found it appropriate to burn other humans. Nor do I respect a religion that discriminates against people based on sexual orientation or gender identity.
Then the other side says they do not respect people based on their religious teaching in regard to sexual orientation or gender identity.
Simply individuals all have the right to make decisions on what to support and choose different ideologies. Your view on this matter means no more than mine. When you try to take away religious rights, you are fighting a losing battle. Pushing ideologies that are in conflict with one's religion is a fight that can't be won.
At best we should be striving to respect individual rights and work towards tolerating each other's differences in regard to ideologies. Tolerance is all we really can expect due to our great ideological differences.
I am a Christian and find great rewards that my faith provides. However, I have had a religious community present my entire life. I could not imagine not having this community. It has offered me a sense I am never alone, I have the love, and acceptance of like people. My religion has brought me through rough times, as well as celebrated my best times.
So, your feelings about religion are foreign to me. But, you certainly have the right to your own thoughts in regard to religion.Yeah, I'm more agnostic - believing in a higher power, but not supportive of any religion. Too many negative, and sometimes deadly, actions have been taken on behalf of religion.
I am so really pleased to hear you believe in a higher power. It shows openness to believing in something bigger than ourselves.
Like I tell my grown children, please don't blame God for the behavior of some people. He's not pleased with them either.
As an aside Christian is a blanket. There are denominations that accept LGBTQ. There is a Lutheran woman who is trans and is a bishop as one example.
Megan Rohrer Elected As 1st Openly Transgender Bishop In U.S. Lutheran Church
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/09/99527175 … ran-church
And, 'List of Christian denominations affirming LGBT people'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C … GBT_people
Having over at least a year of poking about reading Christian positions/arguments using scriptures and theology about LGBTQ it comes down to what you said, a personal belief, thus not a right or left matter. Yes, one can find likeness with others, which may influence one's belief by affirming it, yet, again, it is a personal belief that matters.
Also, looking at religions comes;
LGBT-affirming religious groups
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affi … ous_groups"Conservatives and liberals think very differently in regard to values and have very different perspectives on religion, as well as many other issues, all due to their values. One could say our very thought process is wired differently than liberals."
Many liberals are devout Christians with the same beliefs and values as conservatives. Where we differ is how much right we have to push those beliefs and values on others in the form of legislation and court decisions.
The constitution says there will be no state sponsored religion just as clearly as it says the right to bear arms will not be infringed. Want to change one? Change the other as well."Many liberals are devout Christians with the same beliefs and values as conservatives. Where we differ is how much right we have to push those beliefs and values on others in the form of legislation and court decisions."
Decided on June 26, 2015, Obergefell overturned Baker and requires states to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples and to recognize same-sex marriages validly performed in other jurisdictions. This established same-sex marriage throughout the United States and its territories.
After Roe Fell: Abortion Laws by State
https://reproductiverights.org/maps/abo … -by-state/
Oregon state government
The bill would also prohibit medical licensing boards from suspending, revoking or refusing to grant a license to a provider because of a conviction or disciplinary action for providing reproductive or gender-affirming health care in states where that care is restricted.
https://apnews.com/article/abortion-gen … fac2f809c1
I have offered three very important issues that the left has supported that clearly cause could be considered to impinge on SOME Christian values. And clearly have been debated in regard to legislation.
Three very big issues that many Christians do have a problem with one or more of the above.
So, as you see, I came back with what I see as examples to show both sides pretty much are doing things that irritate the other.
Is it possible, both sides in some respect mean well? And really feel the issues they support are important and necessary to support to further their own ideologies.
How do we get around such differences? Do we continue to butt heads? Has butting heads really worked, or are we all just becoming dizzy, left without solutions or even a way of living together anymore?
.Are there laws that go against someone's religion? Yes. Should they be changed because of someone's religion? No. How do we around such differences? Respect each person's right to choose for themselves as long as it does not harm someone else. Harm - not irritate.
"Are there laws that go against someone's religion? Yes. Should they be changed because of someone's religion? No. How do we around such differences? Respect each person's right to choose for themselves as long as it does not harm someone else. Harm - not irritate."
This is a wonderful sentiment. In my view, when it comes to legislation that gets up stirred up --- could we put the issue in the voter's hands? For instance abortion -- here in Michigan we put it on the ballot.
I like many Americans respect a majority decision, even if it goes against their wishes.
My point is the bill that is being looked at in Texas. The Voters will have the ability to rid themselves of the legislator that proposed the bill next time they run for office. The citizens will also have the right to protest the law.
It would be wonderful, and optimal if all could agree with one another's ideologies. But we don't, and now this is just my feeling. I don't think either side needs to compromise when it comes to preserving values, or an issue that may be morally unsound to them.
The word harm is in the eye of the beholder. I might look through different eyes than my neighbor.Deleted
Michigan is a well know swing state. We don't like something we vote them out. It's almost like every other election we flip governors and our Congress. Out SC is 4-3 Republican majority.
Thus far our system has worked in regards to voting out representatives that the majority feel are not hearing their views.
I think it is clear the Constitution is being chipped at by both parties. Just due to not being as clear as we would like it.
People on the left are amazing.
They promote drag queen story time for children. Men dressed as women who perform in front of little children. There are even videos of them grabbing themselves during performances and more. The left will fight hard and demean parents or anybody who doesn't approve of this behavior.
They promote books that are so detailed in their descriptions of sex, people refuse to hear passages of them recited at school board meetings. Books that glorify homosexual behavior, transgender behavior, describe in graphic detail acts of incest, rape and sodomy. The left will again demean and fight against parents who don't want their children exposed to such things.
What does the left get upset about? Posting the Ten Commandments.
Biblical principles that have been around for literally thousands of years. It is like pouring holy water on a person possessed by a demon. I can almost hear the sizzle.
What is it about the Ten Commandments that bothers the left so much?
Is it "Thou shalt not lie? Maybe "Thou shall not kill?" or how about "Honor Thy Mother and thy father?"
Something about these words really upset those on the left.
Texas voted in the people who put the law concerning the Ten Commandments up for a vote. If it becomes law, it is because the people of Texas have approved it.
Since I believe in freedom, I believe the state of Texas should be free to display what they want in their school system.Many people on the left have put their faith in Jesus Christ and support his principles in their daily lives.
The U.S. Constitution states there will not be any state-endorsed religion. No state is "free to display what they want in their school system."Actually, this is what the U.S. Constitution says,
"First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The key phrase is "Establishment of religion."
There are those who believe the Christian religion is already established. Others would also argue that posting the Ten Commandments is not establishing a religion. It is part of western culture.Mike: The Ten Commandments are very much a part of western culture. But look around. America is full of people from other cultures. They have the same religious freedom as you do.
Yes, the left does promote drag queen story hour as a concept that originated for LGBQT+ families. You see, the left does not see drag queens as dangerous, instead they are seen as performers. The right finds them dangerous as they find most marginalized groups dangerous that are not like them. Hence the goal of this religious indoctrination, to make everyone follow the same tenets they do.
And I doubt anyone would have an issue with the ten commandments (minus the adultery one since it's as inappropriate for young children as sexual orientation discussions are, which you continue to ignore while citing every commandment but that one), if they also posted the religious tenets of other faiths that were represented by those schools. But they are not - they are simply putting their own religion on display and shunning the rest.
And your arguments that whatever the people voted in the majority do is acceptable does not hold water when the nation has a Constitution. Many times laws are passed that are unconstitutional by a majority.
And if you actually believed in the freedom to display whatever the majority wanted to display in a school system, you wouldn't have gotten offended about certain books earlier in your rant. The majority are fine with books that teach sexuality at certain ages."when the nation has a Constitution"
We are not talking about the nation. We are talking about one state with their own Constitution. I expect there may be a challenge if this becomes law, so, then we'll see what happens.
"The majority are fine with books that teach sexuality at certain ages."
Then the majority of parents in a school district should be able to determine which book are or are not appropriate to be in the library of the school they pay taxes to support and their children attend.Aren't we talking about the nation though? Isn't Texas in the nation where the Constitution is the overseeing document that the country is expected to follow?
And should we expect parents to make every decision about the school system? What time the student have lunch? How to teach? Or should the experts trained in the best and most effective methods be the ones to make those decisions? I know which side I fall on there, I'll take the educated ones over the ones being programmed by far-right media any day." I expect there may be a challenge if this becomes law, so, then we'll see what happens."
Being as state law does not supersede federal law, I'm sure we will see what happens.
I popped in to say hello and the first two topics I see:
1) Posting the Ten Commandments is indoctrination and brainwashing
&
2) Gun Violence in America
We cannot refer to God's Laws as indoctrination and brainwashing, omit God from all aspects of life, reject morality, goodness, holiness {all OF God} and then turn around and question why evil thrives!
Repetitive mass shootings, complete disregard for human life, are happening because we've rejected God and God's Laws and so... naturally, evil will thrive!!
We are doomed, if in an effort to invite God back into this Nation, there's pushback, continual rejection, wherein all blame is cast upon what is moral, what is holy, what is good and not on evil itself, evil which we've invited in.....then there is no hope for us.Whose god? Would you have a problem if your child was in a school that only posted the tenets of Islam in every single classroom? How welcome and accepted would your child feel?
Deleted
There is no wall. That's a fallacy!
Our Founders protected us against one church (aka: "an established religion") Religious freedom brought us here, away from an "establishment of religion" such as was the case with the Church of England.
The last words of our Declaration of Independence:
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor."
God was never left behind, the Church of England was!!
The Founders never omitted God, never gave any indication of any such thing, there is no wall. There are references to God, throughout their writings via public and personal letters, journals, Declarations....speeches, etc.
Biblical principles formed the U.S.A. America entered into a covenant with God.
You do not have to accept it, you can't be forced to accept it, but all of this is fact."Biblical principles formed the U.S.A. America entered into a covenant with God." Yes it was. Another fact is that many of those who first came to the New World did so to escape religious persecution. People still do. That is a principle this country was founded on.
Note to self: Not everybody looks like me, speaks like me, prays like me. But they are Americans as much as I am. We all came from someplace else.
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free ""Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free ", this is a part of a poem written in a poetry contest designed to raise funds for the pedestal for the Statue of Liberty.
The Statue of Liberty itself represents and shines a light on America and what freedom looks like; an example as to what it takes for freedom/liberty to exist.
France gifted us the Statue and with it they were showing the world {including France} what it takes, so that other nations could seek the same.
It never has meant or represented; come one, come all, transform at will, change the U.S. into what you left behind, change the U.S. into what you wish for it to be.....etc. and etc.
Yet, one more thing which has also gotten misconstrued along the way!"come one, come all, transform at will, change the U.S. into what you left behind, change the U.S. into what you wish for it to be"
Actually, that is what America has always been and what has made us a beacon for people who only want the freedom to be anything they can imagine being.Exactly, no argument from me on this being the land of equal opportunity for all who seek it!
And trying at something again and again until one gets it right and makes it.
America got it right from the start and Lady Liberty shines her light on what we have built here, as an example of what other Nations can be...not as an " you're welcome to come change it or transform it into something unrecognizable", is my point.
From an article about posting the ten commandments in schools in Kentucky and the supreme court ruling. The first paragraph of the article reads;
"In Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980), the Supreme Court ruled that a Kentucky law that required the posting of the Ten Commandments on the wall of every public school classroom in the state violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment because the purpose of the display was essentially religious."
Seems what is in italics is key. Is it a religious intent or not?
The article is:
Stone v. Graham (1980) from The First Amendment Encyclopedia
https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/ar … e-v-graham
And, also from The First Amendment Encyclopedia comes an article; Ten Commandments.
https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/ar … mmandments
"In a per curiam (unsigned) opinion, the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that the displays violated the establishment clause. For this the Court relied upon the first part of its three-part Lemon test, which stated, “First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. . . ; finally, the statute must not foster an excessive government entanglement with religion” (Lemon v. Kurtzman [1971]). Kentucky’s avowed secular purpose notwithstanding, the Court said the statute violated the first prong of the test because “(t)he pre-eminent purpose for posting the Ten Commandments on schoolroom walls is plainly religious in nature.”I love that people in this discussion will apologize to each other. I'm sure I should do that more.
It just complicates matters and creates division within an ever more culturally and ethnically diverse society.
We need to figure out why mass shootings started in America in schools, churches, malls and so on and so on...beginning in 1999!
We are way passed who might be offended by the words thou shalt not kill or who might be upset if children are reminded to love one another and treat others as they wish to be treated.
Come on, how is this not a no-brainer?Columbine in 1999, I lived only a mile or two from the the high school at that time.
There is probably more causality with the easy availability of firearms making it just that much easier for disturbed people to hurt others in a massive way. It is a real answer over a solution of just putting up handbills on every wall in the school.Then you probably also remember rifles in the back windows of nearly every truck not 25 years before Columbine!! But Joe Jock wasn't using his to shoot up his school. Farmer Joe wasn't using his to shoot up the local Feed & Seed store. Deacon Jones wasn't using his to plow down the congregation!!!
Guns have ALWAYS BEEN HERE, at one time prominently displayed, because it was a different country back then, God wasn't mocked, God was revered! God was feared!
Today.....those same guns are an EXCUSE for those who embrace the dismissal/removal of God from this Country!
Change my mind!AB, I am a city guy and I never saw guns in back windows of pickup trucks. That is a rural, countryside sort of thing and I am sure that they still do it.
The problem with conservatives is that they continue to embrace a quaint scenario of what at one time the country was like, when ever that was is not accurate. The world that you dredge up in your imagination simply does not and has not really ever existed, it just is a fantasy of television and the movies.
25 years before Columbine, 1974 and a little beyond: Watergate, winding down of Vietnam war protests, streaking, Behind the Green Door, "Sticky Fingers"
An anthem for the baby boomers generation, come along for the journey and see how much has changed.....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g&noapp=1
There is no such thing as God being dismissed or removed in the affairs of the majority of humanity based on our behavior toward one another, he has never been here. And that goes back long before 1999 and 1974, for that matter."God being dismissed or removed in the affairs of the majority of humanity based on our behavior toward one another, he has never been here."
Oh but he has Cred!
"Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth, the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy and in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government, without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system."
- Samuel Adams 10/4/1790
"The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."
-Alexander Hamilton 1775
"How has this happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly appealing to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? On the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible to danger, we had daily prayers - in this room - for Divine protection. Our prayers Sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth --- that God governs in the affairs of men - And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that built it"...I firmly believe this.
- Benjamin Franklin 6/28/1787Thoughtful comment, AB.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree.
No man really knows the one correct and true religion, as one can do with a mathematical formula, even men as sage as Benjamin Franklin.
I can lighten up, giving in to the futility of getting people to see beyond their hidebound beliefs of the unquestioned authority of their religious view and tenets over others. We have been engaged in every sort of violence for centuries over this topic.
Who wants to dispense with the holiday Christmas tree on the public square? I may have to settle for a new crossing of the line with mandated prayers or moments of silence in public schools with a acknowledgement of the positive tenets of other non-Christian faiths being as prominently displayed in the schools.
I don't want people inculcated and indoctrinated but encouraged to think for themselves and make their own decisions regarding this matter as I recall a scripture that said "Indecisive one "Choose now, who you will serve". God gives human kind a choice, who is any man to take that away? Conservatives in their fervent desire, fail to realize that I can't be compelled to "believe" anything.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/choos … _you_serve
So, I get to choose my course and parents and can choose their course for their children while they remain children.
2 Timothy 3.5 is the real truth regarding America and Christianity, today.
https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-5.htm
"he has never been here"
Couldn't disagree with you more.
Mass shootings go back to before 1891 and they have been in an upward trajectory since. In recent decades it has become a steep incline upward reaching shall we say for the stars. Sad!!
Sharing a personal thought for consideration I feel at this time many are in flux with the constitution contrast/compare biblical thought. An example is I am against abortion, but pro-life.
In the same sense as posting the Ten Commandments in schools, I believe they are truly moral guidelines for all of man, yet constitutionally they are prohibited from being posted in schools as the court declared they have a religious purpose. A supreme court decision has established that.
So, being a Christian one is in flux. Does one accept to give to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar? Or, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (Romans 13:1)
Personally, that gives me cause to be in flux with issues such as this one, yet that is me.I don't remember hearing about mass shootings in America's schools prior to 1999, but I will take your word for it.
I believe it takes us getting back to our roots and that's where God comes in. This current course where anything goes {BUT GOD} has placed a curse upon this Nation.Let me clarify, I said 'Mass shootings', not those occurring in schools. Yes, I agree school mass shootings should be considered a different category from mass shootings in general. They certainly are prominent and on the rise. Why? I could speculate, yet my reply would become lengthy.
Yet, on school mass shooting curious I poked about learning the first one was July 26, 1764. Check the link following showing school mass shootings beginning with that one shared. Just skim it and be shocked at how many. And, it ends in 2010.
History of School Shootings in the United States by K12 Academics
https://www.k12academics.com/school-sho … ted-statesI scanned through the link and I do remember the Observation Tower mass shooting in Texas, but as far as any other cases coming anywhere close to the intent to create as much carnage as humanly possible, as was the case beginning in a Colorado school in 1999, Columbine, I don't see it. That year, that massacre, I would argue, opened a portal to all other horrific mass shootings since.
Skimming through your link, I see that 1764 incident...where Indians at war with settlers shot up a school. Other than that I didn't see a single mass shooting, in the form we see it today, anywhere until the 1970's.
Today's school shootings are from a person simply wanting to kill someone. Anyone, as long as they can kill. That is not the same thing as shooting a teacher or fellow student that the shooter feels has wronged them. It isn't even in the ballpark.
So no, the mass school shootings, or even the mass shootings in general, did not start until the mid 1900's. Even the gang wars were different, in that once more the objective isn't to kill just anybody that is seen.
The ideal is that the Christian never subordinates what belongs to God over what belongs to Caesar.
I still think Bill Maher had it right with his segment on the programming kids get through the movie industry. There is so much violent content out there, and retribution-themed movies. And in all of them, the good guy with the gun never gets hurt and so many of these movies have really high body counts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebg2YnBj9II
I'd rather start by violence shaming Hollywood, or adding graphic content labels to overtly violent movies to try and get the message out that maybe these aren't the best programming for today's kids.I don't think that would matter if the majority of people were taught core values and beliefs of western Civilization such as the Ten Commandments. Since most people today have no moral code, we have chaos.
If you want to talk about moral codes and chaos, look at the guy you swoon after? The most amoral and immoral man in a generation ever to be considered eligible for highest office of the land. He has no peer nor equal.
Maybe instead of beating people over the head with your Bibles and methods of indoctrination, perhaps true believers would set the example and quietly move others to acceptance with their own good example. Where am I seeing that in Judeo-Christian religion today?Human nature is what we are considering. Who is perfect? Are we not all humans and subject to falling in our awareness of what is good and bad, or right and wrong at any point in time and in any given situation?
"The most, ( MOST?,) amoral and immoral man in a generation."
Exaggerating much? I give you a pass in the name of creative expression.
Who are not, "quietly moving others to acceptance with their own good example?"
Who are you accusing of, "beating people over the head with Bibles?"Can you remember in your lifetime any former President ensnarled with every sort of criminal accusation? I don't and I can say with some confidence that there has not ever been a former Chief Executive that has this many vultures flying overhead, having so much negative encounter with the law. If you can't see that, then you need to have your eyes checked.
Nobody is perfect, but there are varying degrees of "being soiled" while claiming to be a moral example as our top law enforcement officer, Trump is well past the line, as no one else has been.
True Christians walk the talk, and through their positive example they move others to listen to them, and others may be won over to their point of view.
Anyone who wants to force me to acknowledge their religion as opposed to my own, if any, is "beating me over the head".
I don't exaggerate at all, quite the contrary! I am being mild in expressing my comments and observations,
"The most amoral and immoral man in a generation"
Obviously you forget about Bill Clinton, Hunter Biden, and even Joe Biden.
I bet you don't see many things going on in the Judeo-Christian religion. You would be surprised at the good things are done for people around the world by the Judeo-Christian religion. I'm not even going to worry about connecting a link. If you choose not to see it, that is your choice.You are playing the role of bull sh!t artist Supreme if you really think that you can compare Trump's rap sheet with Clinton or any other former President, present one concluded. But when Pence sings.....
I am aware that here are many positive things associated with True Christians and their activities. I just say that it is not all exemplary and that other faiths do positive things as well, are we to ignore them? So, I am not surprised.
Great clip, V....
I take this with a grain of salt. Long before 1999, I teened and twentied with my "Wild Bunch", "Dirty Harry" films, etc. I did not go to the movies to watch the grass grow, I could do that at home.
Violence in the cinema is nothing new. You give conservatives an inch on this issue and we will go back to Tipper Gore and suggestive lyrics, Carlson and his attack on the M&M characters, maybe even Jerry Falwell and his attack on the "Teletubbies".
Most of us grew up to realize that real coyotes don't survive falls from cliffs or being blown to bits with TNT.
We are always going to have disturbed people, definitely in the minority, who get the wrong message from popular entertainment. To blame Hollywood for not sanitizing and Disneyfying the world rather than blame easy access to the tool used by madmen is just a distraction.
When I was coming of age, we had MPAA moving ratings to restrict certain films featuring violence and other adult themes from children. Despite that, we still had our "helter skelter", serial killers and heavy gun violence as part of our cultural identity and reality. Well, in the age of cellular telephone and ubiquitous internet all those safeguards are gone now, and we can't just go back to the future.
It is like all conservative, "red" reasoning, you let the elephant's trunk into the tent, you will later have to deal with its entire carcass and things will begin to get more than just a bit cramped for the rest of us.
Some want to see this country become Muslim.
If we are forced to put up The Ten Commandment on the walls of our classrooms, are we not paving the way toward legislating morality?
Perhaps in time, Muslim precepts will be mandated as well, or instead.
Is that fine too?
No.
I do not believe in mandating morality.
A LAW requiring schools to to display the Ten Commandments, helpful as that may be, is stetting a precedent we really do not want.
A Mon AvisYou can't believe I asked these questions because the answers are "obvious," however, the answers are not obvious ...
at all.
So, go ahead and tackle, if you can:
Trump is:
"A liar:" How so?
"Not moral:"In what way?
"Incites violence:" How so?
"Tried to overturn a free and fair election": Prove it was fair with mail-in voting and computer voting machines as mandated by the unusual circumstances of the pandemic?
He "used deficits." ?
He used "trickle down economics:" AND?
"that only favors the wealthy." No it doesn't.
"and has been shown to not pay for itself." How "shown?"Liar: So many to pick from, but I'll just go with the one that caused him to lose my benefit of the doubt about his character. 'My inauguration crowd size was the greatest in history.' Not remotely true. I've got thousands more if needed.
Not Moral: Cheated on his first two wives, cheated on wife #3 when she was pregnant - with a pornstar.
Incites violence: Targeted the FBI and the next day one of his supporters attacks a field office in Cincinnati. Targets Democratic politicians, supporter mails them pipe bombs. Targets China with dangerous rhetoric, Chinese Americans see a rise in hate crimes. Targets Bragg, he gets racist death threats. Targets Phily vote counting center, two supporters arrested outside with guns and a plan to attack it.
Mail-in voting - used in many previous elections. Changes to make it easier to vote made in times of emergency - used multiple times in multiple states, including Florida by Governor Rick Scott. If you don't think voting during a once in a generation pandemic is going to be unusual, then maybe you've voted in a few other pandemics we're not aware of. All the audits and all the machine counts came back within normal ranges for all elections previously. No proof of actual fraud that would change the result means that it was free and fair.
The economics of explaining trickle down policy when you seem to not understand that it's about giving money to the wealthy and they are supposed to reinvest it to benefit the lower classes - instead of just hoarding it like they have been so the country does not get the GDP bump that was intended to offset the tax break they got might be too much.He does not lie, he exaggerates for effect. As in the example you gave.
He was moral in office and will be moral in office, if reelected.
He was not in a position of public service in the past and who know why he behaved 'immorally,' Perhaps he was starved emotionally in those previous marriages!
Immorality is lifting your skirt dressed in drag to expose oneself before children and their liberal mothers.
J6 was not an uprising promoted by Trump. He expected his supporters to act peacefully. Hired Anita members inspired it and facilitated it. The media lies and Tucker was taken down for countering the media's narrative.
Mail-in voting should only be used sparingly in true circumstances of hardship / absenteeism.
Trickle Down is giving the wealthy tax breaks for the purpose of enabling them to do business and contribute as they do to a percolating economy on many levels: hire employees, creating more tax payers and generate tax revenue.
A mon Avis
Benjamin softened with time.
Yes, you do get to choose your course in the greatest Country that God gave man!Yes, you do get to choose your course in the greatest Country that God gave man!
---------
That, too, depends upon your point of view, ABTo whom was it given? To the Native Americans or the white Christians who took it with violence?
Ahhhh, we have some U.S.A. bashing going on I see!
Choose to love it, choose to hate it, choose indifference.....whatever floats your boat.More for you AB, can you answer the man's comment honestly? He does have a point, you know?
Rather long by very relevant and pertinent article making my case.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-lawmak … 05786.html"About the 16th of March 1621 a certain Indian came boldly amongst them and spoke to them in broken English...His name was Samoset. He told them also of another Indian whose name was Squanto, a native of this place, who had been in England and could speak better English than himself. About four or five days after, came the aforesaid Squanto. He continued with them and was their interpreter and was a special instrument sent of God for that good beyond their expectation."
- William Bradford
If the Pilgrims, Puritans {aka: "white Christians"} had landed where they did a few years earlier, they would have been met by the not so friendly...Patuxet tribe, but they were wiped out by a plague by the time the"white Christians" arrived {but for one, who had been in England - Squanto}
Incidentally, Squanto converted to Christianity.
I will not deny that the new Americans and the Native Americans made many mistakes, I am sure that communication {or lack of} played a big part. BUT, there was also a lot of working together, which benefited ALL.
It is shame that so much of history, has been hidden away or erased.
I was not USA bashing. I was talking about the slaughter of Native Americans by Europeans.
"About the 16th of March 1621 a certain Indian came boldly amongst them and spoke to them in broken English...His name was Samoset. He told them also of another Indian whose name was Squanto, a native of this place, who had been in England and could speak better English than himself. About four or five days after, came the aforesaid Squanto. He continued with them and was their interpreter and was a special instrument sent of God for that good beyond their expectation."
- William Bradford
If the Pilgrims, Puritans {aka: "white Christians"} had landed where they did a few years earlier, they would have been met by the not so friendly...Patuxet tribe, but they were wiped out by a plague by the time the"white Christians" arrived {but for one, who had been in England - Squanto}
Incidentally, Squanto converted to Christianity.
I will not deny that the new Americans and the Native Americans made many mistakes, I am sure that communication {or lack of} played a big part. BUT, there was also a lot of working together, which benefited ALL.
It is shame that so much of history, has been hidden away or erased.So, the Indian wars on this continent ongoing for almost 3 centuries and the theft of land and all of that from the myriad of tribes here has been ordained by God?
I choose to see the big picture, I am not looking to pass judgment on everyone and everything which came before. It is not in my nature to seek out ONLY the negatives, I accept history as it was, the good with the bad.
Later.
They say history is written by the winners. If so, the reality of what is taught today about the slaughter of Native Americans was probably worse than is said in the history books.
Sure you have good folk. Native Amricans and Europeans will have worked together. And you surely can find anecdotes.
But this does not cover the fact that whole tribes were killed and millions of Native Americans were murdered.
(Estimates European arrival in 1492 lead to 56 million deaths of Native Americans by 1600)
History is not all peace and happiness. Most of it is cruel and brutal.
We have to learn from history and try not to repeat it. (but it has a tendency to do so.. just like children copy their parents in many ways)
But there is hope in a way, as we live in a peaceful time compared with 100 years ago. Globally, the absolute number of war deaths and crime has been declining since 1946. And that's a positive thing.
God gave America to Europeans the same way he gave the promised land to the Israelites. By telling them to kick out the current residents and take whatever they wanted.
Just stating a fact. As you said, you can disagree and that in itself, speaks volumes.
"In a disturbing yet not exactly surprising move, Republicans in the Texas statehouse have taken the first steps toward passing three bills that inject religion into public schools. One requires public schools to display “in a conspicuous place” the Ten Commandments in every classroom. Another measure will allow schools to require prayer and Bible reading time each school day for students and employees who give their consent to participate."
A third bill would ensure school employees the right to “engage in religious speech or prayer while on duty.”
----------------
It is like I said, once you allow the camel's nose under the tent......And, the new Americans didn't have it so easy either!!
Agreed that we must learn from history, but we have many here in the U.S. seeking to rewrite or completely erase history.
Later. AB out.My point was more about the fact that the land was taken, not given.
Have a nice weekend AB.And maybe you should realize that for thousands of years land from one group of human beings was taken, not given. If you read about the native Americans, you would realize, before European settlers, there were wars between the tribes, genocides, land possession changed hands between tribes many times. They were constantly at war with one another. How do you thing the Aztecs built an empire? From other groups of people in the area giving them land? How o you think China, Russa, India all came to exist? Because people GAVE them their land? How do you think Rome built an empire?
What makes the situation in the United States different is that during the course of human history, it is uncommon for those who win wars to set aside land for those they have conquered to have as their own.
During history has this been done by any other people who have defeated their enemies?All of that is understood, just don't make something noble or scriptural about it. Just call it what it is.
A victor setting aside land for conquered people to have as their own is something unique in human history. Native Americans have their own police forces, etc.
Not so unique, the Canadians do have something comparable. My point is that America and its existence is not necessarily blessed by God. You would be surprised over the amount of times that I had to listen to the "Manifest Destiny" claim by Europeans while they enslave many and expropriate land in overrunning the continent.
Yes, that's a strange thing. I'm Dutch but I'm definitely not going to defend the fact that The Netherlands got rich by the slave trade..
You can be proud of your country (although I don't have this feeling towards the country I was born in, The Netherlands, or where I live, Spain.) but you should also be critical.
I reacted on "God given land" which is simply not true.
Surely there were wars among tribes. But this was not necessary because of the possession of the land.
And it does not make the genocide of millions of Native Americans by the Europeans a good thing.
You can always point the finger at somebody else who did worse.
Before you did not own a river, you did not own a tree. You lived on the land and with the land but you did not own it. The Europeans brought the concept of ownership.
And I'm sure that there are loads of examples where the conquerors gave the losers a peace of land to work on. And you can bet that it wasn't the best piece of land. The Romans did it all the time. The English too. It's called imperialism. You win a war and move on. Placing a government that will rule independently but will be paying taxes to the conquerer.
but I think we're a bit off-topic..."genocide of millions of Native Americans"
Never happened.
"The Europeans brought the concept of ownership."
You really need to read a bit more about native Americans. Each tribe claimed their own area of land. Those caught on their land who were not members of that tribe had a good chance of being tortured to death in a rather painful way.Genocide of Indigenous Peoples
Holocaust Museum Houston.These are called myths and the people at this museum should know better.
"Smallpox in the blankets is one of those stubborn legends that can’t be dismissed as myth because it is founded in a mixture of limited historical fact and widespread circumstantial evidence...the United States had practiced cultural genocide against American Indians since the 1870s, but had not practiced actual physical genocide."
https://www.historynet.com/smallpox-in-the-blankets/The Small Pox on blankets is a myth and those people at the Museum should know better.
“Smallpox in the blankets is one of those stubborn legends that can’t be dismissed as myth because it is founded in a mixture of limited historical fact and widespread circumstantial evidence…the United States had practiced cultural genocide against American Indians since the 1870s, but had not practiced actual physical genocide”
https://www.historynet.com/smallpox-in-the-blankets/
The Native Americans were not beyond massacring settlers. This is just one incident. There were hundreds of times Native Americans slaughtered settlers. These incidents are often what lead to wars.
“Joining the residents of New Ulm were hundreds of settlers fleeing the Dakota assault. Free-roaming bands of Indians broke off from the main war army to attack farms and travelers. Settlers were killed in places with names like Acton, Milford and Slaughter Slough.
There's never been an official report on the number of settlers killed, but estimates range from 300 to 800. Historian Don Heinrich Tolzmann says until the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, it was the highest civilian wartime toll in U.S. history.”
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/f … art4.shtmlIf you were stealing my land with intent to move me elsewhere against my will, I would massacre you as well.
Hence, you would fight a war, and lose. Then those who defeated you, still give you land to call your own, which is unique in human history.
All this was done long before my family got here. I'm just fascinated at the history that is NOT taught.I don't think it's unique. It''s common practice. You conquer the land, and give it back to the people who lived there, but now they have to pay tribute and pay tax to the conquerer.
Oh, I will believe that The Native Amricans fought back and slaughtered the invaders. But killing a thousand settlers against millions of Native Americans cannot be compared.
And if 800 people was the highest civilian wartime toll in U.S. history, they never counted the Native Americans as civilians...
And using bacterial warfare was not new. So why would you not believe it. It would be a perfect murder weapon to get rid of the natives. Killing livestock and resources are other useful tactic...
I don't think the conquering of the Americas was a peaceful thing. The Spanish were brutal against the Aztecs
I don't know much about the ins and outs as I'm not an historian. But to be honest I don't think people are saints. The human race has a long track record of genocide, murder and brutal wars. And I don't think the conquering of the USA was any different.
And yes, it's good to read more than one resource. And not only the official ones. But an alternative resource is not automatically better."killing a thousand settlers against millions of Native Americans cannot be compared"
Millions? Where do you come up with this stuff. Never happened.
If you read what I posted, the 800 people killed was just ONE incident that occurred in ONE day. There were hundreds of such incidents.
Again, if you had read the article by the historian, the use of blankets to spread Smallpox is a myth. It didn't happen.
I don't think you are out after the truth as much as you seem determined to promote an agenda.Yes millions were killed by the Europeans.
Or don't you think people are not able to kill millions of people? Happens more often in history than you might think.There weren't "millions" of Native Americans to kill when what was to become the United States was discovered. There were no big Native American cities or advanced civilizations when the British colonists arrived. They didn't have a written language. Only AFTER the colonists arrived did one tribe, the Cherokee, develop a written language. They had no scientists, etc.
You are probably talking about North and South American over a span of hundreds of years. That is possible.This is an interesting scientific article I found. It explains how population estimates are made. And how many people lived in pre-Colombian times in the Americas. The effects of influenza, small pox.
It's pretty in-depth and I did not have the time to read it all yet. But it's interesting to read.
Earth system impacts of the European arrival and Great Dying in the Americas after 1492
The European havoc was not only felt in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m … ustraliansYes, that's an enormous tragedy too. Comparable.
Good morning Mike, a lot of history was hidden, even back when I was in school, but nothing like the re-writes, the revisions, the lies & the outright erasing of history which we have been dealing with, here of late!!
And as I suggested earlier, the left seeks out the worst parts and pieces of our history and they obsess over it!! They never have a good word to say about this Country, all of their words are demeaning, insulting and destructive.
America isn't perfect, got it!
We learn from our mistakes and we move on!
The great majority of us, aren't living in the past, we are completely content and so blessed to be living in the greatest Nation that God gave man...and woman!!History is the study of the "past", such is how it is defined.
I have a lot to say that is good about the country, America has had memorable moments in its history. But, I do want the actual truth good or bad watered down. So, I am not concerned about George Washington cutting down the cherry tree.
"we are completely content and so blessed to be living in the greatest Nation that God gave man...and woman!!"
You really believe all of this don't you? From the standpoint of a white female, could I have expected anything less?
For many of us, the worse parts and pieces are more than just parts and pieces.
Yes, America isn't perfect, so who decides that they need to burn books to make that point?
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