Stop Funding the War in Ukraine
... what if The U.S. stopped funding the Ukraine war.
... what are the consequences of supporting Ukraine here?
... what if we stopped supporting Ukraine?
as in stopped cold.
... wondering
Get your bearings, know your time
Don't you worry, weather's fine
All the world knows what I'm saying
All the world knows what I'm saying
The world knows fine well
Get together, work it out
Simplicity is what it's about
All the world knows what I'm saying
All the world knows what I'm saying
The world knows fine well
Donovan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL3EZvpPvUkIf you stop supporting the Ukraine, which sovereign country will Russia invade next? Finland, Estonia, Latvia?
How can we fund a war with money we don't have?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xw64bXXJjESeems to be a large focus on money, taxpayers money.
If i understand the nature of war contributions correctly then most countries provide old stuff that is no more in their active inventory. To make it more clear in accountants terms:
The material provided is written off. Taxpayer may have payed for it long time ago, but today it is at maximum at 10% of original purchase cost.
I wonder if most loud mouthed contributions are old stock, but marked with origininal purchase price tag.
For some of the equipment there are even ammunition supply issues because it has not been manufactured for years and decades.
During my Bundeswehr service in the early 70ties i sat in a Leopard1. Engine change period: 1 hour. Lifespan of fuel injection pipes: 16 hours (It was estimated that the tank would not last that long in combat). That is how many years ago? And that stuff is supplied today to Ukraine. There are absolutely no funding issues with this old stuff, except some politicians bragging about the support finances.
It’s not just the USA, many countries around the world have chipped in towards the costs of the war in Ukraine – This Wikipedia link provides a very comprehensive and detailed list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m … ainian_War
The consequences if the USA stopped funding the war in Ukraine would be a greater insecurity to world peace, especially in Europe, and the USA becoming more isolated in the world as Europe becomes more embroiled in war with Russia e.g. a repeat of world war two with Germany, before the USA joined in.
We are not fighting for fun; we are fighting for ‘Freedom’ and ‘Democracy’, and world security.Your view is the reality of the situation. The reasons the war started no longer matter. The consequences of a Russian defeat would be deadly—for Russia as a nation, almost immediately. The danger of a victory will be deadly for the Western world in a decade or two.
It appears the 'serious' (as in non-posturing) folks that are talking about reductions in Ukraine funding are talking about oversight of the funding more so than a reduction of it.
After recent reports that the US may have lost more than a quarter of a trillion dollars to Covid fraud, oversight of Ukraine-related spending sounds like a good idea.
For more support of the oversight idea, consider the firsthand stories of 'pallets of cash" that were 'distributed' through the first post-war Iraq stability programs. Top those off with the known warlord 'compensations' of the Afghanistan conflict. Yep, a little oversight seems reasonable to me. A lot of it would be even better.
GAYep, can’t argue with that; oversight of how the money is being spent, and where it’s being spent would seem prudent.
Did you see in the American news that Boris Johnson has finally gone as a politician; he resigned last week, before he was kicked out by Parliament for repeatedly lying to Parliament:-
“The House of Commons voted to accept the privileges committee report on the conduct of former Prime Minister Boris Johnson during Partygate. It was a resounding result, with 354 MPs voting to approve the report, while just seven voted against.”
The privileges committee consisted of 7 MPs (elected politicians to the House of Commons); 4 Conservative MPs, 2 Labour MPs and 1 SNP (Scottish National Party) MP.
Two other Conservative MPs resigned with Boris Johnson, and a fourth Conservative MP resigned days later (due to a scandal). So there will be 4 by-elections next month, and with the next General Election less than 6 months away, if the Conservatives do badly in the by-elections it will be a great embarrassment to the Government, who are already struggling in the opinion polls.
YouTube video on the subject by Dr Luke Evans MP (Conservative MP): https://youtu.be/6sBUmLZSMYk
Boris Johnson, having resigned as a politician, has now taken a job as a journalist for the Daily Mail (a newspaper resound for fake news); prior to becoming a politician Boris Johnson was sacked as a journalist by ‘The Times’ (a British Conservative newspaper) for writing ‘fake news’.Yep, I saw the news about Johnson. Lying and politics are an international thing.
GAYeah, politicians lying is an international thing; and it certainly seemed to be condoned and encouraged in America – But the difference is, is that (unlike the USA) in the UK, in Parliament (under the British Constitution) lying is classified as a serious offence and is not tolerated, and which attracts serious penalties if a politician is found to have lied – You don’t see that happening in the USA.
The matter is taken so seriously in British politics that even accusing a politician of lying, without proof, is an offence in Parliament; as this short video demonstrates:
"Liar!" Bercow loses it as May gets branded by SNP's Ian Blackford https://youtu.be/jW5cTdvYABo
The phase the British Press famously coined to describe Margaret Thatcher was that she was “economical with the truth” e.g. although she was not always truthful, she never actually lied in Parliament e.g. she would tell ‘half-truths’.Your link brought a chuckle. I understand your point, but for the average American, that video might not be the illustration you want.
GAIt looked like a British comedy. The finger pointing with Order . . . Orr-der . . . Orr-der . . . The PM standing - sitting - standing - sitting, up and down like a jack-in-the-box . . . The banter between the magistrate(?) and the guy who said liar . . . and so on.
That criticism also, many times, applies to our Congress. But ours is more of a dark comedy that brings groans and a shaking head more than it does a chuckle.
You guys do it for form, ours do it because they are rude self-centered idiots.
GAThanks for the elaboration:
Yep, I understand your point. Of course, ‘Business’ in the UK Parliament is conducted in accordance with a strict code of conduct that actually facilitates the debate process in an orderly, civilised and respectful manner – as far as politics can be civilised and respectful; for example:-
• Members of Parliament (MPs) must be addressed by their appropriate title e.g. The Right Honourable Theresa May MP, etc. MPs who are not privy counsellors are just ‘Honourable’. The Privy Council being the formal body of advisers to the King.
• An MP cannot speak in Parliament, other than through the Chair e.g. the Speaker. And to get the Speaker’s attention, an MP stands; and then sits down again if the Speaker does not choose him or her to speak next.
• Clapping (applause) is also prohibited in Parliament, but the Speaker did relax the rules and allow MPs to give a resounding applause to Greta Thunberg, following her well received Environmental speech in Parliament a few years ago.
• And of course, un-parliamentary language in Parliament is a BIG NO NO.
There are many other rules of conduct that have to be followed; I guess from your comments, a good analogy might be the strict and complex ritual ‘song and dance’ some bird species (and many other species in the animal kingdom) go through to attract a mate!!!
Birds of Paradise mating dance: https://youtu.be/W7QZnwKqopo
Even the UK Youth Parliament (democratically elected politicians between the ages of 11 and 18) are expected to generally follow the same rules of conduct in Parliament.
Extracts from the UK Youth Parliament in the House of Commons – 2011: https://youtu.be/DXkoOXkTS2kI enjoy watching the parliamentary debates that occur in the UK. The banging of the gavel, hearing, "hear, hear, hear, the clapping of hands, etc." Having the Prime Minister question people on the opposite side directly. It is very different than the United States. When the president addresses congress, there is no give and take, he just makes a speech.
Yep, it’s all part of one of Parliament's main roles: To examine and challenge the work of the government through questioning ministers, debating and committee work; which helps to keep the government on its toes.
I don't think it that a Russian defeat will be deadly for Russia as a nation. It will be deadly for Putin and friends.
Russia will survive and perhaps have a different head of state but that's not a bad thing.
I think that the consequences of Ukraine losing are far worse.
It's become more complicated than a mere war against Russia.
This is a global economic battle.
This is a realignment of resources, cheap energy, raw materials, industry.
This is also about China flexing it's position in the world being at least equal to America.
Ukraine is merely a part of this.
Ukraine is the bridge too far for America.
The goal of the Ukraine war was always to defeat Russia, break it up, and create vassal states or a banana republic out of it.
The resources of Ukraine and Russia could make corporations, financial institutions, and countries like America and Germany continue their global dominance with access to those cheap energy supplies for decades to come.
China, OPEC, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and of course Russia will all suffer severe restrictions on their own power and position on the global stage if Russia loses.
Talk of this being about "freedom" and "democracy" is laughable. That is what those in control of our government tell the 'ignorant masses' to get them to support our military tyranny and destruction of foreign nations.
Iraq, Libya, Syria speak to the real interests and goals... control over resources and to hell with the destruction reigned upon the people of those nations.Ken, Could the bottom line be that the US and NATO fight on for many years and eventually just walk out as we have in most other wars we have fought? Tail between legs, the Nation we were fighting in scorched ground with a huge death toll. And Russia ultimately wins takes the spoils. Is this not a likely scenario?
I know this is very cynical, but I have history to rely on.Meanwhile,
Go into debt and let future generations pay for it.
Borrowing has severe consequences.
~ oh well, Live for Today .... if you are rich and all you care about is YOUR little life today.
Our money is also important to the rest of the world.
Yet the coffers are empty.
So We the People are paying for the world's peace!
World Peace
Really???We have borrowed and spent like no other time in our history. This is very concerning. It's not a good place to be in.
Not sure we are paying for world peace, it's been a long
time since we were at peace. The Us has been in wars for a very long time.
I think we are now trying to stop aggression, which I don't think would be an easy job, many nations have become very powerful, and have or will have nuclear status, and many now becoming allies against the US.
I think they got what they wanted out of each conflict we have been in for 30 years.
Iraq, Libya, Syria are now collapsed/trashed nations.
The West now controls the oil resources of those nations. They are no longer under control of "hostile nations".
The Military industrial Complex made Trillions of dollars in supplying those occupations as well as selling arms to ally nations nearby.
And in return they destroyed the homes and lives of the people living there, those nations are devastated.
The same is occuring now to Ukraine and when Biden officially starts his war against Russia, perhaps they will avoid nuclear disaster and gain control of Russia's wealth of resources as well.
I think they are delusional or psychotic for thinking so, but it seems that is their belief, that they can defeat Russia and gain control of Ukraine and Russia's resources.
It shouldn't come as a surprise, these are the same people pushing for men to be women, kids to get sex changes, and for those refusing vaccinations to be fired, jailed, even executed.
These people are deranged and they are the ones setting policy and starting wars.I can see no good end to the war in Ukraine. It would seem we have two factions that will fight until one is diminished, and no longer can fight. It just seems no one even mentions talks. Odd.
I really feel you have well figured out what this evil bunch wants to do. And I am of your mind, there is no stopping them at this point anyway.
I hope we can at best get them out of the White House.The rich benefit to the detriment of the people.
Money and power are so seductive.
Ask a certain president.
There is a difference between level of democracy if you compare Iraq, Libya and Syria with the Ukraine.
But yes the US never had restoring democracy in other nations high on the list of priorities. It's always about resources.
Nevertheless Ukraine did not start this war. Putin invaded a sovereign country. For whatever reason may be. Control of Gas, "Lebensraum", political self-interest. The reason is not important. As Russia started the physical war.
"The resources of Ukraine and Russia could make corporations, financial institutions, ....."
You sound as if it will be a partnership. That's not the case. It's pure imperialism. One nation (Russia) robbing the other.
The goal of Ukraine is to defend its own country.
The goal of China is not to get involved and sit on the fence and wait. China is good at waiting."It's pure imperialism. One nation (Russia) robbing the other. The goal of Ukraine is to defend its own country."
I completely agree with you. It is strange how I and those in Europe understand that which Americans don't seem to understand. russia must be defeated. This war would stop tomorrow if russia would move its troops back behind its borders. It's that simple. I don't think many Americans seem to understand you can't let one country simply illegally annex parts of another country because it wants the territory. IF that is ever permitted to go unchallenged, no country in the world is safe.
I don't think the United States will stop funding Ukraine any time soon. I do know that if they do, Ukrainians will continue to fight with whatever they have and try to find new ways to obtain what they need to fight.
russia has gone too far and done too much this time.The war would have never happened if the Minsk Agreement had been implemented by Zelensky.
He spat on that and then made into Ukranian law they would take Crimea by force from Russia.
So, Russia will continue on, until there is a new government in Ukraine that will concede Crimea, and now, probably all of the Donbas region as well.
Ukraine will be destroyed long before Russia gives up, if Biden gets his wish and enters America into the fray, that is WWIII and we all lose.Ho hum, nothing new with you. I suggest you try news sources concerning the war in Ukraine other than the russian news agency Tass and Pravda.
"The war would have never happened if the Minsk Agreement had been implemented by Zelensky."
"Russia will continue on, until there is a new government in Ukraine that will concede Crimea, and now, probably all of the Donbas region as well."
I bet you don't know much about what is happening inside Ukraine and with the Ukrainian people. THIS will never happen. Trust me.
"Ukraine will be destroyed long before Russia gives up"
Ukraine is liberating territory daily. I suggest you try sources other than Tass and Pravda for new sources. The rest of the world is more in touch with the reality of the situation.
No, the war would not have happened if russia had not illegally annexed part of Ukraine and conducted an invasion. The United Nations and most of the world understand this, it says a lot you don't.What reality are we talking about Mike, the one where HALF the nation's population is now refugees in foreign lands?
The one where hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have already died?
The reality is that a military victory for Ukraine is impossible, literally impossible, as in not achievable unless the US steps in.
I don't say this because it is what I want, I say this because it is my understanding of military strategy and recognizing the superiority of Russia's Industry, numbers (soldiers, air, tanks, artillery), and determination.
This isn't some far away land, like it is for America, this is their land, they have been attacked in Russia, in Moscow, they will never give up Crimea.
Ukraine is going to lose
https://asiatimes.com/2023/03/ukraine-is-going-to-lose/
The Ukrainian Army Lost Bradley Fighting Vehicles and a Leopard 2 Tank Trying and Failing to Breach Russian Defenses in Southern Ukraine
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 … 05346532c9
Ukraine Is Cracking Under The Blows Of Russian Forces. Military Summary 2023.06.22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eypXIh4ONrgMike’s statements are perfectly correct. FYI Russia’s tanks and artillery do not have superiority, they are in short supply, old technology and unreliable; whereas the Ukrainian army is equipped with modern and more sophisticated tanks and weapons from the West. Also, much of the Russian army are untrained conscripts with low moral; whereas the Ukrainian Army has higher moral, more determination, and are better trained.
Yes, yes, you are regurgitating the rhetoric you find in your news sources.
"Ukrainian Army - better trained"
Its hard to be better trained when you were a civilian with no military experience 3 months ago.
It takes years of experience to be "better trained" it takes roughly 120 days just to get a soldier through a "basic" training and then a "specialty" training... and then that is not "experience" that gets you to the point where you have a basic understanding of what you need to do and how to do it.
That said, there appears to be the internal implosion and revolt against Putin brewing that was expected by American/NATO leadership.
Russia is facing a major military crisis as the former state ally Yevgeny Prigozhin declared war on Moscow's defense ministry amid a feud with top military leadership.
https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-i … eadership/
Some 25,000 mercenaries, mostly former convicts, heavily armed and with APCs and Tanks. Now headed for Moscow.
That's a major turn of events, a force that size, with artillery and air support, probably could have made it pretty deep into Ukraine.
This will sow far more chaos in the region and may actually bring about the sought after collapse of Russia those in DC and Brussels were hoping for, if so, this is a huge win... monumental... an entire shift in fortunes for the US, UK and EU going forward.
If they get their desires and are able to carve up Russia into what will essentially become vassal states to Western interests, it will be a huge boon to our economies and a windfall of profits for a great many corporations.
It will be a crippling blow to BRICs nations and make OPEC almost irrelevant to Western interests for decades to come.No, I am not regurgitating rhetoric; I live in Europe, so I know from a life time of personal experience what Mike has been telling you.
Yeah, it takes time and resources for military training; and the majority of Russian soldiers on the front line haven’t had that training – But Britain has been training the Ukrainian Army since last summer (for the past year).
How Britain is training up Ukrainian troops in the UK: https://youtu.be/HCrSauOnBGs
Yes, the revolt going on in Russia is a turn of events, but it’s not likely to be the “shift in fortunes for the USA, UK and EU” that you think it might be – Potentially, it’ll just be replacing one authoritarian Regime leader with another."a force that size, with artillery and air support, probably could have made it pretty deep into Ukraine."
You really need to read more about the war in Ukraine. The Wagner group was stalemated by the Ukrainian army.
If russia is carved up, it is the least of what they deserve. I believe the hatred toward putin from his own military is increasing.I must admit, I am surprised by this turn of events.
Looks like everyone in Brussels, DC, the Pentagon, etc. had it right.
They thought Russia would turn in on itself, fracture, and then they could facilitate it being broken into smaller states easily manipulated and controllable/exploited.
Amazingly risky gamble, considering what could have occurred, if they avoid a nuclear disaster and pull off the disintegration of the Russian Republic I will have to eat a lot of crow.
You are wrong and time will show it.
These are are a few article you picked compared to the vast number of articles that cover Ukraine advancing against Russia.
I disagree with your perception as Russia being the unprovoked aggressor.
Russia was provoked in large part by America influencing and aiding the overthrow of a Russian friendly government. Back in 2014.
From 2014 to 2020... Russia accepted Crimea into the Russian Republic.
Ukraine built up its military with Western support with the intent to use it.
Then in 2020 Zelensky not only refused to implement the Minsk agreement and work toward peace, he put into legislation/law that they were going to take back Crimea, one way or the other.
Russia continued to try to get Ukraine and the Biden Administration to concede Crimea and reach an agreement about the Donbas and NATO.
Zelensky and Biden flatly refused.
They still refuse.
So the war will continue because the current leadership (Zelensky and Biden) want it to continue.
I find it funny that the Crimean people voted to secede and that is considered unacceptable, during a time when there was no elected government in control of Ukraine, but if we were supporting a State or portion of a nation doing so it is OK.You can find arguments that favour both sides. But there is a difference between diplomacy and brutal force.
Russia started the physical war with soldiers and drones entering a sovereign nation. Putin could have opted for diplomacy and loads of other options instead of war.
He didn't. And that is the red line and a big difference.
Even if Putin had tried to attempt a coup with a straw man the situation would have been different. (It's a tactic the US has done in many countries.)
I think that in principle, Putin lost the war at the moment the Russian soldiers entered Ukranian territories. He lost the diplomatic solution. He lost the worldwide public opinion. (important and not to be underestimated)
Putin didn't want to call it a war as this word changes how politicians worldwide have to make a stance. Either for or against Russia as G.W Bush had put it..Again I would disagree with the premise of " He lost the worldwide public opinion."
There was no diplomatic solution that Ukraine/Zelensky and Biden/America was willing to accept that allowed Crimea to remain part of Russia.
I think many other nations are not holding Russia in a dis-favorable light.
On the contrary, there are many that seem to be uniting behind Russia, without going so far as to directly oppose America in doing so.
Saudi Arabia, the UAE and China are at the forefront of this group.There is always a diplomatic solution. Ukraine did not invade the Crimea.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
Russia simply wanted to reannex Ukraine. And you can find a thousand reasons why it wants to do so but that does not make it right.
If every big country starts to invade it's smaller neighbour we are a long way from home.
Russia simply overreached its dominance. And the consequences are the opposite of what Putin expected. It could loose the Crimea perhaps as well.
Putin lost the war of annexing Ukraine already. For him it's a more the political game to stay in power that matters. So he needs a solution to end the war with not to much loss of face.
If Ukraine starts to conquer Crimea as well Putin will have a real serious problem at home.
Whatever the outcome. It's a very sad situation for the people who are living in the Ukraine. It's always dangerous to intellectualize a war as in the end, it's about cruelty, murder, rape, and torture.
That alone should be a reason to condemn Russia as it started the invasion."Saudi Arabia, the UAE and China"
Wow, what a shocker. Now, these three countries are so pro-democracy this is surprising they would support an oppressive government like russia.
I hope you can detect the sarcasm, unfortunately, you can not hear my laughter.
"Russia accepted Crimea into the Russian Republic."
Again with the blatant lies comrade Burgess.
Crimea was illegally annexed by russia. This has been accepted by the United Nations. This is a fact and it is indisputable, except for those who use Tass and Pravda as their source for news.
"I find it funny that the Crimean people voted to secede and that is considered unacceptable, during a time when there was no elected government in control of Ukraine"
As always comrade Burgess, the United Nations has reported this vote was a total and complete russian fabrication. This is how they do things in russia. I'm sure you know this.
Extracting the facts:
To achieve global financial dominance, by gaining access to the cheap energy sources and products that exist in both Ukraine and Russia, corporations, financial institutions and many countries, (America and Germany, for two,) are supporting and funding the war between Ukraine and Russia, despite the destructive consequences. They truly believe they will be able to "defeat Russia and gain control of Ukraine and Russia's resources."
(Ken B)
However, in order to maintain its power and position on the global stage, Russia, backed by China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and OPEC will strive to resist those forces, with all it's might.To achieve global financial dominance, by gaining access to the cheap energy sources and products that exist in both Ukraine and Russia, corporations, financial institutions and many countries, (America and Germany, for two,) are supporting and funding the war between Ukraine and Russia, despite the destructive consequences. They truly believe they will be able to "defeat Russia and gain control of Ukraine and Russia's resources." (Ken B.)
G R E E DYes, that's it.
America is in this fight for greed and for pursuit of their One-World NWO.
Instead of trading with Russia on its terms as an equal, instead of respecting its wishes and not involving ourselves in the Ukraine / Russia relationship... We supported an overthrow of the government, installed a puppet regime, then built up it's military so it could fight Russia.
The end result was always going to be war with Russia, it is the only way to take part of Russia from Russia.
Crimea is Russian, it is part of the Russian Republic as much as Texas is part of America and not Mexico.
We do not want to accept that, so it has always meant and will always mean war, until we do.
And eventually we WILL learn to accept it or there will be nuclear war. The people who are delusional thinking we can defeat Russia through conventional means or by overthrowing Putin are destroying America, at home and abroad.
Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and others are turning away from Biden/America... Once those new alliances and agreements are made and in full practice, they will abandon America, America itself will falter economically.
We, the American taxpayers are funding their greed, pure and simple.
Rush Limbaugh would explain that we can always stop submitting our tax money to the government. It would have to be done across the board by the entire nation.
Obviously, It would be better to just elect someone who is opposed to this war, its purposes and its consequences.
If we do not have the opportunity to vote via fair elections, well, there's always the former option.Open rebellion in russia is really happening.
Here is a YouTube video about it that covers some interesting facts of the war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmITp1Kz1yULet me try to break down what I have heard:
Prigozhin it appears told his Wagner Group forces that they were going back to protect Russia/Moscow from some form of Ukrainian attack.
It seems there was a coordinated plan with Ukraine/CIA/MI6 to cause major havoc in and around Moscow.
I do not know how many different cells of saboteurs there were, if they were Russian, Ukrainian, or something else.
However 36 to 48 hours ago those cells were discovered and captured/killed by Russian Intelligence(s).
Prigozhin who was conspiring with those instigating this effort, had no way of knowing this at the time, that those cells had been compromised.
He moved into Rostov waited for the havoc to ensue, made his statement(s) as to why he was there. Putin came out and called him (and his forces) a traitor.
The Wagner Group, their recruiting stations, offices, etc. are now being seized and occupied. The forces of the Wagner Group marching on Moscow are being engaged by the Russian military, their vehicles being destroyed by air (helicopters and jets)... Prigozhin will be arrested or killed, he certainly does not appear to be on the precipice of a successful coup.
That's where it stands at the moment.I question your sources. I think you get your information from Pravda as well as Tass. That would make sense.
"Prigozhin it appears told his Wagner Group forces that they were going back to protect Russia/Moscow from some form of Ukrainian attack."
That statement is laughable. I suggest you read how Prigozhin wants to punish those in moscow responsible for a rocket attack on his people from the russian military that killed hundreds of them.
Wagner chief rejects Putin’s accusations of treason
Yevgeny Prigozhin says Putin is ‘deeply mistaken’ and that Wagner fighters are not traitors but ‘patriots.’
"The Wagner Group has made its way 60 miles into Russia, claiming to have taken control of the city Rostov-on-Don, from which Russian military command has coordinated its attack on Ukraine. Prigozhin initiated the march after claiming on Friday that the Kremlin had authorized an attack on his forces, which had killed a "huge amount" of his troops."
"Reuters separately reported — citing a Russian security source — that Wagner fighters have seized military facilities in the city of Voronezh, and the governor there has said operations are underway to put down the mutiny. Reuters could not independently confirm the situation there. "
"A Wagner convoy with armed vehicles was also seen traveling north on the M4 motorway, which links Voronezh and Moscow in the Lipetsk region, the BBC reported. The regional governor, Igor Artamonov, said Wagner is moving "equipment" in the region and has asked residents to stay home and avoid traveling."
This is from Aljazerra
“There are 25,000 of us, and we’re going to figure out why this chaos is happening in the country,” Prigozhin said, indicating that he had more forces in reserve and support from military members. “Everyone is welcome to join. We must end this disgrace.”
He also posted a video in which he dismissed Moscow’s claims that Kyiv was planning to launch an offensive on the Russian-controlled territories in eastern Ukraine in February 2022, a claim that had served as a rationale for launching a full-fledged invasion.
He accused the defence ministry of “trying to deceive the public and the president” and “spin the story that there was insane levels of aggression from the Ukrainian side and that they were going to attack us together with the whole NATO bloc”.
Prigozhin’s words marked a significant escalation in his long-running standoff with the Russian military’s top brass. In response, the ministry issued a statement saying Prigozhin’s accusations were “not true and are an informational provocation”.
Prigozhin said his actions did not amount to a military coup but were rather, “a march of justice”.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/2 … gner-groupYes, I read the information put forth a few hours back by media sources, that you have quoted and linked.
And then I went and found out what was going on and made that post.
It is never a good idea to accept what the MSM is putting out at face value.
There are far better sources when it comes to combat situations. Anything really is better.I think you are forgetting that Mike has relatives in Ukraine, just as one of my close friends is Ukrainian, and has relatives in Ukraine.
Tell your friend "Слава Україні" I think it sounds in English like "Slava U-Kryanie" (Glory to Ukraine) He may reply "Героям слава" I think it sounds in English like "E-rohem, Slava" Glory to the heroes. This is quite a common thing to say among Ukrainians right now.
Great slogans
I’m actually meeting him next quite soon, with another fellow ex-work colleague, for a social drink and chat on the 10th July in a local pub (as we all live locally). I’ve known him since the early 1980’s, so I don’t know how good his Ukrainian is; but I will pass on your message when I meet him and find out.
His name is John Malyckyj; I don’t know how prominent (or otherwise that surname is in Ukraine). In his spare time he does do a bit of journalism for local media; and the link below is an article he wrote a few years ago in the local newspaper e.g. he’s an ardent football fan (and his photo is shown in the new article): https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/foo … ol-4060914Hi Mike; I passed on your message Слава Україні to my Ukrainian friend when we had a social drink in the local pub on Monday.
He was very appreciative of your message. Having gave him your message, he went on to tell us that when he was a kid he could speak Ukrainian quite fluently e.g. they had an uncle staying with them who could only speak Ukrainian so the whole family only spoke Ukrainian in the evenings so the uncle could join in with the conversations.
However, he hasn’t spoken much Ukrainian since he left home, so he confessed that he Ukrainian has become a little rusty, but he can still get the gist of what’s being said when he hears it.
So thanks again.Nathan,
You are very welcome. I'm sure if your friend was to spend some time in a place where only Ukrainian was spoken, it would all come back to him. I know having friends and relatives who speak it really helps.
Putin looks like an inept fool standing on the world stage with egg on his face. Prigozhin rolled his troops, unfettered, within 100 miles of Moscow. Have you not seen the pictures of the Russian people taking selfies with the Wagner group? They were being cheered on. Prigozhin basically held a gun to Putin's head. Makes you wonder how much Putin had to pay to to stop the attack on Moscow. Wagner was the most reliable firepower in Ukraine. The Russian army isn't going to fare well without them.
It is an interesting dynamic for sure.
Around 6 p.m. Moscow Time on Saturday, Prigozhin released a statement:
"Right now the moment has come when blood could be spilled. Therefore, understanding all the responsibility for the fact that Russian blood would be spilled on one side, we are turning our convoy around and going back to our base camps, according to the plan."
The deal was allegedly negotiated by Belarussian President Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko, a Putin ally.
Prigozhin said that that authorities had allegedly wanted to disband the Wagner Group, the private military company that has worked with Russian forces in Ukraine, as part of it.
Wagner Group forces will return to camps in Ukraine, with some fighters signing contracts with the government.
As part of the deal, Prigozhin himself will relocate to Belarus, as part of a deal for the criminal charges against him to be dropped.
Prior to his uprising, he had been in Ukraine, staying near the front lines of the fight in Ukraine.
The apparent deal includes security guarantees for the Wagner Group contractors who joined Prigozhin’s invasion of Russia, per Lukashenko’s announcement on the deal.
Wagner Group fighters who did not take part in the uprising will not be punished, spokesmen for the Kremlin said. They will be forced to sign contracts with the Russian military, which the Russian government had been pushing for.
The internal mechanics of Russian politics is quite different from what we are used to in our neck of the woods.
Very interesting watching some of the clips of Russians during the Wagner unrest last weekend.
Once Wagner turned away, they were treated as heroes for doing so by the people in the streets, the people were speaking in terms of support for them and Putin.
The Russians appear to be unified in a way that we here in America no longer understand, we are very fractured, a very divided society... and for the last quarter century or longer it has almost been frowned upon to be a Patriot.
Some people call it offensive when they see a neighbor flying the American flag.
I have a sense that the people of Russia, while not believing their government or leaders to be perfect, have a very real... us vs. them... Russian vs. non-Russian unity.
They also handle these internal squabbles in ways very un-Western like.I think that's your very Russian- centric view. Yes Putin will handle it in a very "unwestern" way..Prighozin will soon meet his end in some sort of horrific fashion. "Squabbles" with the government are handled with brute force. Putin is a dictator. There is nothing admirable about him or Russia.
The Russian people are not as united behind Putin as you might think - It's an oppressive regime where the political opposition are often imprisoned; and to speak out publicly against Putin is likely to get you arrested.
Nathan,
Lets face it. If the russian people were so united for putin, millions of them would not have left russia at the beginning of the war. It is a VERY oppressive regime. The russian government crushed anti-war protests. They arrested protesters and them forced the protesters into the army and sent them into battle untrained. Sad but true.
It's easy to talk about life in russia when you haven't been there and don't know people who have spent their lives there.And I don't believe any of us have lived in Russia, have we?
So no one here really knows, all you know is what you read or were told, second, or third hand.
Same as I, though I do consider information coming directly from those in Russia or who have travelled there recently far more legitimate than I would what the "news" tells me.So are you telling us that all the suppression of the political opposition, and Russian civilians who criticise the Putin Regime, is a figment of our imagination; and are you trying to tell me that the Russian Regime assassination and assassination attempts of Russians on British soil over the years is also a figment of our imagination.
We don’t live in Russia, but on this side of the pond we live on Russia’s doorstep, so we have a clear view of what goes on in Russia, especially when their shenanigans spill out over into our borders.I think how the Russian people view the world, how they view their society, is different then how we see the world and their society.
How they view the Ukrainian war is different than how we in the West see it.
What the Russians know about the Ukraine war is something akin to:
Crimea (the Crimeans) voted to secede from Ukraine when Ukraine was operating with an unelected and contested regime. Russia accepted them into the Russian Republic.
The Donbas regions fought to separate from Ukraine for ten straight years, artillery rounds reigned on that region for ten years, a region dominated by Russian speaking, Russian sympathetic citizens.
Russia supported them in their efforts.
2014
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/21/worl … arges.html
2015
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles … st-donetsk
2017
https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Media/News/New … he-donbas/
2019
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/06/uk … ssia-west/
Zelensky then declared to the world that he was going to take Crimea by force, he amped up the shelling of the Donbas regions, and Biden all too happily got in front of the camera time and again and rejected all Russian proposals for negotiation, said he would never accept Crimea as part of Russia, etc. etc.
So, yes, I do believe Russians have a far different view of this war than we do, and they are far more familiar with what Ukraine has done to Russians and those who speak or worship in Ukraine in typical Russian fashion over the course of the last ten years.
I think they see this as far more of a fight that is personal and of urgency to them, then we Americans do, and I would dare say, than most Western Europeans do.
I think most Americans and Western Europeans are about to take a hard turn against this war, as our governments push for us to get more involved in it... at OUR expense... our higher energy costs, food costs, and risk of nuclear war.I think most people here in America and around the world will continue to support Ukraine. Sorry no one sympathizes with Putin
.... how the Russian people view the world, how they view their society, is different then how we see the world ....
Certainly true.
But you have to understand that this "understanding of the world" this Russky Mir" is not an inherent result of Russian peoples thinking. This is the result of decade long propaganda efforts of the Putin administration.
Do you think the TV shows of Soloviev, Skabeeva or you name it started only after the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 or the anexxion of Crimea in 2014? No - long before, at least a decade before 2014 this propaganda started to creep into the minds of Russian people.
Putin does not want to restore the late Soviet Union. He wants to restore the Zarist empire. And that includes in general terms most of Warsaw treaty territories. The Baltic countries, Poland understand this perfectly well. This is why these countries contribute overproportionally to help Ukraine.
Russia has been overestimating its potential and at the same time overstretching its means for centuries. In 1856 Russia was defeated while trying to extend its territory to the Balkan. Countries like Moldova, Bulgaria sound familiar today?
The Zarist empire lost dearly and costly, had to introduce reforms (removal of serfdom in 1861). Then in 1867 followed the sale of Alaska.
In 1905 was the next debacle with the naval defeat of the Russian fleet in a battle against Japan. Uprisings followed, bloody Sunday in Sanct Petersburg. With WWI as fire accelerator the revolution in 1917 followed.
Putin refered in his last week TV address to the 1917 revolution. Completely wrong interpretation of history. The current situation with Ukraine strikingly reflects the Russo-Japanese war in 1905. Indeed then and now there are dangers from the inside.
In a propaganda that pushes superiority, exceptionalist thinking there is no place for defeats in conflicts, there is no place for internal errors. There is only place for blaming someone else - the collective west, NATO, USA. Some pick up this narrative.
Ken, for more than 3 decades of relations with Russia i never fully lived in Russia but certainly spent in total more than 1 year in the country. Gives me enough personal insight into Russian mindset.
By the way you don´t have to live in Russia. Just go to Brighton Beach, NY and talk to Russian natives. You will find astonishingly many people who had fallen to Russian propaganda. Just compare propaganda storylines with what really happens.I think they see this as far more of a fight that is personal and of urgency to them, then we Americans do, and I would dare say, than most Western Europeans do.
I think that's difficult to say as Russia is still a country that oppresses freedom of speech and I don't think information is so openly shared as in the West. (I don't know how the internet is working there and what the provider channels through so this is speculation on my part.)
So it's hard to know what the "Russians" think, let alone know about the war.
I can imagine that the news about the war is scarce in the Eastern part of Russia. And that they are more concerned about their daily lives than a war in a faraway country.
I can imagine as well that the enthusiasm to join the army would have been much higher if there was a need to defend the country. But I think most people see it as a war not to defend their home country but to ruin a foreign country in the name of politics.
In a sense perhaps Ukraine is Russia's Vietnam. They are going to lose it because there is no reason for soldiers to fight. You can not hold the morale up for years on end, certainly not when it wasn't that high to begin with. That's why Russia had to go to mercenaries and convicted criminals.
It's a lost war for Russia, but in the meantime thousands of people will die on both sides."Crimea (the Crimeans) voted to secede from Ukraine when Ukraine was operating with an unelected and contested regime. Russia accepted them into the Russian Republic."
Again, you are determined to spread your russian propaganda.
Crimea was illegally annexed by russia. The United Nations determined the election was a shame. Have you no shame when it comes to spreading blatant lies?
"The Donbas regions fought to separate from Ukraine for ten straight years, artillery rounds reigned on that region for ten years, a region dominated by Russian speaking, Russian sympathetic citizens."
I suppose you are going to leave out the part where russian soldiers, military equipment as well russian support in many ways poured into the Donbas region prior to the conflict?
"So, yes, I do believe Russians have a far different view of this war than we do, and they are far more familiar with what Ukraine has done to Russians and those who speak or worship in Ukraine in typical Russian fashion over the course of the last ten years."
This is propaganda RIGHT from Pravada and Tass. I don't know why you won't come clean about your connection to russia. Are you ashamed? Afraid to admit it?
I know what russians think from speaking with many russians. I can tell you they are afraid of their government and to speak out against the war. A man showed me a video where he was talking to someone in England during a protest. He wasn't even part of the protest, a person on the street started hitting him screaming "speak russian you piece of garbage." I have spoken with russians who have helped their male relative leave. I was told how the russian government will simply stand outside of apartment buildings after slipping draft notices into the doors where young men live. When they leave the apartment building, there are people waiting at the entrance to take them away to the army. I'm told most people don't believe the news from there.
Speaking with people from russia is quite enlightening.I know some people who would say your comments are misinformed, or Western propaganda straight out of CIA guidelines.
But I recognize it is just your opinion based on what you hear, or believe, based on biases and experiences you have.
I don't waste time making slanderous statements over and over again that make no sense.
There are plenty of Russians happy to be Russian... I know that goes against what we want people to believe in the US... but they really don't all think America is the greatest thing on earth and all want to be here, they really don't.
That is as absurd as saying all Americans think Biden is a great President and love the Democratic Party leadership we currently have.
Absolutely, that’s why I said in reply to Ken that “It's an oppressive regime where the political opposition are often imprisoned; and to speak out publicly against Putin is likely to get you arrested.”
Lol there's no loyalty or patriotism in Russia
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagners-pr … s-805345cf
Prigozhin plan to capture military leaders in Russia.Col. Douglas Macgregor gives a good general review of what has gone on. A different opinion than you will get from the MSM. There are many others like his.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF1qDjLCHNYWhen he said russia had to launch the invasion he lost me.
"Three days after the war began, he said "The battle in eastern Ukraine is really almost over," and predicted "If [Ukraine] don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them." Macgregor said he believed Russia should be allowed to seize whatever parts of Ukraine it wanted. In his second appearance, he revised his prediction: "The first five days Russian forces I think frankly were too gentle. They've now corrected that. So, I would say another 10 days this should be completely over... I think the most heroic thing he could do right now is come to terms with reality. Neutralize Ukraine." After one of his appearances, Macgregor's comments were characterized by veteran Fox News Pentagon correspondent Jennifer Griffin as "distorting" and "appeasement" and that he was being an "apologist" for Putin.
His is like you in being absolutely wrong about everything going on in Ukraine. He has said some other outrageous things as well. Nobody who knows anything about the Ukraine war is going to pay attention to this man.
I agree with Jennifer Griffin...this man is an apologist for Putin.
In September 2022, he again predicted on Carlson's show that “this war may be over soon” and later in the month "the Ukrainian army is bled white, tens of thousands of Ukrainian troops have been killed or wounded, Ukraine is really on the ropes". Liz Cheney tweeted in response: "Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch - Why do you continually put Douglas MacGregor on @FoxNews to spread Putin's propaganda and lies? This is absolutely not in America's interest."
The man has no credibility
Well then, if Macgregor has no credibility as far as you're concerned, lets try a couple of others. Larry Johnson & Ray McGovern:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9EQL1wUa8IDon't care. They have no skin in the game. They are simply spectators. Which one of them has spent time in Ukraine? I wonder which one has seen first hand how russians intentionally attack civilians?
Is this the best you can do to prove your point?Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said that Ukraine's victory against Russia in the war is 'impossible.'
Speaking to the German tabloid Bild, Orban also lashed out at the US-led West for aiding the Ukrainian military to defeat Russia on the battlefield. The NATO Nation also said that fighting would not stop until Kyiv's main backer, Washington, decided that there should be peace.
------
So is the war now heading in Russia's favor?
Sir Richard Barrons, a former head of Joint Forces Command, told Sky News: "I think in the short term that is so.
"Russia will feel it's sitting on now just a bit less than a quarter of Ukraine. It knows that Ukraine does not have the military capability to throw them out, and it will sense that there is some weariness in the world at bearing the consequences of this war."
-----
Sanctions only hurt EU nations (especially Germany) Russia has found other customers for all it can produce
Moscow accounted for 46% of India’s oil imports last month, according to data from analytics firm Kpler, a staggering leap from less than 2% before the invasion of Ukraine.
China too has taken far more Russian crude over the past year, with imports hitting records, but it is India, a strategic US partner, that has stepped in from the wings to prop up the Russian economy.
Even Japan is now trading with Russia for oil.
-----
Analysis of the ongoing conflict:
https://understandingwar.org/background … ne-29-2023
...Sanctions only hurt EU nations (especially Germany) Russia has found other customers for all it can produce
...
I recommend to watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhxXBVAtUDQ
This video and many more on the youtube channel take a deep dive into economics 1x1 and Russian economic performance. Explains the impact of sanctions as they rolled out over the past year.
Concerning Germany: Germany hurts mostly itself. We currently have a government with lots of room for improvement. Sometimes i think the current war kind of hinders our government to do even more economic harm.
Anyways: sanctions work. Russian revenues from natural resources drop significantly as a result of sanctions, even if India and China have stepped up their imports. Appears that Russia is now sitting on a lot of Rupees that nobody wants to be payed with. And Russian economy can not consume enough Chinese products to balance oil and gas imports. All Russian efforts to create trade alternatives to the USD are in vain.A person I know grew up and lived most of his life in St. Petersburg. According to him, he has spoken to his friends and relative there and most people in russia don't seem bothered by the sanctions. There have been a few stores closed but most of them are open and providing all the goods they need. Prices have increased but people accept it. He said there has not been mass unemployment or anything like it.
Do you think it is only a matter of time until this changes?That was a good video, a fair enough break down.
It will be interesting to see if the prediction comes true and by the end of 2023 Russia runs out of money.
I suspect they may last a bit longer than that, it is always interesting how nations like Venezuela, Turkey, etc. can do massive harm to their economy and yet the leadership remains in place, the nation keeps trucking along.
It behooves India and China to continue to support Russia's continued existence as is, if Russia collapses in on itself, they lose those precious resources and cheap energy.
I wonder if their leadership recognizes that a defeat of Russia is a defeat for India and China's economies as well?
You would think they would be smart enough to realize how important Russia coming out of this, whole and victorious, is for them... but they might not be... as has been proven time and again, some real incompetent people can make it to the highest positions of power.
If Russia is fractured and broken down into smaller states, if a puppet regime is put in place that the West can control, those energy resources, those raw materials, quickly get diverted back to the EU and the West.Another general issue with the Russian economy is its size of net GDP if reduced by natural resources.
According to sources, some 50% of GDP is attributed to natural resources.This leaves the other 50% for producing industry, agriculture and services.
Just compare this remaining fraction with the GDP of much smaller countries in Europe that can not rely on natural resources and you find the size comparable to Netherlands or Belgium.
Conclusion: Russian industrial base is way too small to sustain war efforts of "Special operations" magnitude, even if switching to war time production.
We can watch and make bets on what will run out first: Russian state budget or military equipment supplies.Indeed, that is the bet that DC and Brussels have made.
They do not believe that the Russian economy, or its industrial capabilities, are up to the task.
While that may be true, I think the eventuality of it is further away than they predicted when this began. The timeline, as you yourself suggested, infers that Russia comes to its economic end by New Year's day.
I suspect things will not be that severe for Russia at that time, they will have the ability to go on longer. But it does depend a lot on BRICS, OPEC and China continuing to give Russia as much economic support as possible.My personal guess: Russia will run out of military equipment faster.
Why:
All economic calculations and estimates are based on western thinking in not perfect, but fairly efficient market economics. This can not be applied for Russia (and for Ukraine also not to some extent). Russia is deeply corrupt, especially the industrial military complex.
Sanctions make it difficult to transfer money diverted from corruption out of the country (except to China and India). So most of that unproductive money remains in the economic cycle and will ironically support the state budget.
But if productivity lags due to corruption, that has serious implications on resupplying the military. This is why i think Russia is running out of equipment first.
Some weeks ago i watched a report on Shoigu visiting a tank factory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbVn3dLeCyA
For an insider this badly staged show is embarrassing. It perfectly reflects the lack of productivity, of organisational means to streamline production. I don´t understand why this was shown on TV and published in the media. If i were an intelligence analyst i would draw my conclusions on Russian industrial capabilities. If this is a prominent showpiece, what does the rest look like?
From texting to Shoigu: It takes 4 hours to install optics. This is max. 6 tanks per day. Russia is loosing some 10..15 tanks per day. You understand my point? And from my experience it takes time to move the tank from one dock to another. So lets assume 4 tanks per day to leave the factory (refurbished or new). This is why they end up with old T62 grandpa.Lets consider Ukraine then, very similar to Russia.
Why is this?
Because in essence, they are from the same cloth.
Only Ukraine has no industrial base, has no economy, has no standing army of reserves or warehouses full of tanks and artillery.
Ukraine is getting makeshift second hand equipment from half a dozen different nations, equipment they have zero experience using before now.
Each tank driver, each jet fighter, is learning how to use this equipment now, and as soon as they get the basics down they are being thrown into the meat grinder.
Unlike American forces that have many NCOs and Officers that have trained with the tanks and jets, maintaining them, wargaming with them.
I suspect Russia has a considerable number of troops that have been familiarized and trained for years as well. A significant amount of which has been held in reserve to this day, but I have no way of knowing.
All of Russia's problems that you point out, exist in even more extremes in Ukraine.
I have been saying all along, this is a war Ukraine could not win, if I am capable of discerning this, so must those that wanted Ukraine to start this conflict with Russia... so I have to presume that the plan all along was to get directly involved.
Anything other than that means we have delusional, corrupt, morally bankrupt leadership that has encouraged Ukraine to throw away hundreds of thousands of lives and suffer immense hardships and turmoil on millions of others... on a cause destined to fail.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in another couple months it is Russia that goes on the offensive and things get more brutal than anything that has come so far.
I know I have belabouredly expressed how much I disprove of this war and how I believe it could have been avoided if we didn't have such belligerent and deranged leadership in America that we have today.
They don't show Americans the horrors of war, the brutality of these deaths, the lives being thrown away... if they did, America would rise up against these criminals and demand they find a peace before it gets worse.
Here is a small example of just how brutal this war is, I don't suggest that anyone who wants to remain in the dark to its horrors watch it, as most Americans are want to be clueless to such realities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw0CNIX7ApA... All of Russia's problems that you point out, exist in even more extremes in Ukraine. ...
I don´t object that Ukraine has serious corruption and bridery problems. Once in a while this pops up when officials and industry leaders are arrested.
After the 2014 Crimea annexion the west started to train Ukrainian military. By doing so much of old Soviet "vranio" system was abolished. And until today the western support requires transparency about what is happening to the stuff provided. Does not mean that some registered assault rifle shows up in Palestine, but in general there is way too much western oversight to allow corruption in the military.
Concerning industry i have no real clue, as i don´t rely on media on this topic. I only know that the CEOs of two prominent companies in Ukraine were arrested in early 2022 after the invasion. The companies being Antonov, Kiev (Hostomel) and Motosich (Zaporosje) and i had business with them in my former life, so i have direct sources and dubious corruption experience (An Antonov executive wanted me to write his doctor thesis in exchange for forwarding a consulting contract. I refused by i still remember).
The Russian military has no corrective influence from the outside. Bribery and corruption is still in full bloom. The Russian industry is suffering from sanctions multiplied with corruption.
My assessment:
Corruption in Russia: 100%, Corruption in Ukraine: 30%.
And there is one more issue with Putin´s Russia. It is apparently more important to be loyal than to be competent. This attitude does not foster professionalism. Can be seen every day.As i wrote: Oversight by western arms suppliers reduce corruption in the military industrial complex.
Until 2014 it was the same in Russia and in Ukraine. That is why Ukraine failed so dearly with Crimea and the Donbas. This has definitely changed. And it had to change because Ukraine applied for membership in the EU and NATO.
I don´t say this membership application is a total cure. But it limits the reach of bribery and corruption. And the war uncovers immediately all remnants of the "vranyo" system. Ukraine fixed it, Russian tanks ran out of gas after 50 km during the first month of the invasion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz59GWeTIikThis explains how Ukraine faired so well initially, in the early months.
But Ukraine's forces were effectively wiped out in that first year.
The military forces that the West built up, over 8 years, was ground up.
So that 'Western" advantage they may have had, is mostly, if not completely, wiped out.
They are now rounding up people wherever they can find them, and sending them off for the minimal amount of training required to know how to drive an APC and aim a weapon.
These are green troops being thrown into a meat grinder. The land is now fraught with landmines, artillery markers, and Russia still has air superiority and satellites.
Your insight is very good, but it doesn't take into account a lot of military factors, which is where I have a lot of insight and intel.
While you may recognize a lot of the serious drawbacks in the Russian system and its industry, I recognize the benefits of not having to depend on the generosity of other nations for their economy and military equipment, the benefits of having a military that outnumbers Ukraine 5 to 1 or better.
Ukraine cannot win this war, and despite Mike's posts, my sources confirm that the only thing Ukraine is doing is throwing forces into the meat grinder and getting them chewed up by mines, artillery, drones, and dug in defensive positions.
The kill ratio going on right now is somewhere close to 7 to 1 in favor of the Russians, its the Russians sitting back and killing the attackers, this is normally how such offensives go when you don't have air superiority and technical advantages.
Ukraine can cause harm, of course, but they cannot take any serious amount of territory from the Russians with what they have.
Hard to find non-biased reporting, most sources are PRO one side or the other.
You can find a few (like below) that just give the general (real) account of what is going on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kv_C_wmL1M"They are now rounding up people wherever they can find them, and sending them off for the minimal amount of training required to know how to drive an APC and aim a weapon.
These are green troops being thrown into a meat grinder. The land is now fraught with landmines, artillery markers, and Russia still has air superiority and satellites."
Where do you get this stuff? To me, it seems you're making it up.
FYI - The majority of Ukraine's troops have been trained for months in NATO nations including Spain, the UK, Germany. Even the United States has training facilities in Poland used for training Ukraine troops.
"The kill ratio going on right now is somewhere close to 7 to 1 in favor of the Russians, its the Russians sitting back and killing the attackers, this is normally how such offensives go when you don't have air superiority and technical advantage"
Again, where do you come up with this stuff?
I believe your sources are Pravada and Tass as well as Russian propagandists. That is the only thing that would explain your distorted views of reality of the war.
Russian forces in Mariupol drawing up contingency plans for withdrawal
Earlier, an advisor to the mayor of Mariupol, Petro Andriushchenko, stated that the occupied city would soon be liberated, as the Russians are running out of funds to finance construction and were delaying salary payments to water utility workers and teachers.
He claimed that Mariupol residents also speculate that the Russian evacuation plans may be linked to an anticipated counter-offensive by Ukrainian forces, which is believed to be imminent.
At least 25,000 people were killed in the city as a result of the Russians' bombing of residential areas and civilian infrastructure when the Russians captured the Ukrainian city in late May 2022, Ukrainian authorities estimate.
To hide the traces of their crimes, the occupation forces brought mobile crematoria to Mariupol and forced local residents to bury the dead in mass graves on the outskirts of the city, Ukrainian authorities say.Its called reality Mike, I go find real sources, combined with my own military background.
Some kids get a few months training in Spain, the UK, Germany???
That's called green buddy, as in, they don't know what they don't know, as in, the majority of them won't last 24 hours when they reach the frontline.
They are nothing more than cannon fodder for the mines and artillery.
What is going on right now is most likely a Mongolian Retreat.
Mobile defense-withdraw, saturate the area you just left with artillery, regain lost ground at your leisure when enemy has suffered significant attrition.
The weather is sunny and hot, perfect conditions for air attacks, drone recon and artillery strikes. Must be costing Ukraine a great deal of equipment and troops."I go find real sources, combined with my own military background."
With what you've claimed on these threads I'm not impressed. I also would like to point out you are not the only one with a military background. I was an infantry officer for years.I do not type things here to impress.
I have often gone back and deleted entire paragraphs to ensure that what I type is not misconstrued as trying to laud my own experiences.
There is a great deal NO ONE can be sure about regarding this conflict. What the real goals are, of ANY party, Russia, America and everyone in between.
No one can say with certainty that this will not escalate into nuclear disaster.
The news just the other day was about how the largest Nuclear Power plant in the EU is at risk.
The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, Europe’s largest, with six reactors Ukrainian officials have charged that Russia has rigged the plant with explosives, while Russia claims that Ukraine plans an attack on the facility.
At ANY time, even the smallest nuclear weapon going off sends us spiraling into WWIII, the end of civilized society, as we know it.
Ukraine has already suffered and lost more than it will ever gain in some sort of "victory" against Russia, How much more it has yet to suffer is because we have warmongering lunatics that couldn't care less how many lives are thrown away running our nation. They will not negotiate, they will not compromise, they don't just want to reclaim lost Ukrainian territory, they want the complete defeat/destruction of Russia and the demise of Putin.
Putin and Russia knows this, they are not closer to defeat for it, they are merely going to become more desperate and determined... historically speaking, it never seems to go well for the side determined to destroy Russia.Ken, quick inquiry --- I noted that the US will be sending Cluster bombs to Ukraine. They have been proven to be one of the most inhumane bombs on earth. Plus after some research, I note that cluster bombs How many countries banned cluster munitions? A total of 123 countries have ratified the convention to ban their use under all circumstances—including nearly all our allies. “It's not hard to understand why. Because cluster bombs scatter multiple small bombs over a large area, they kill civilians both during an attack and after they are deployed.
Why on earth would America send these bombs? It almost seems like the Biden administration is pushing to escalate this war, and could care little about the citizens of Ukraine --- these bombs will pose severe hazards even when the war is long over.
I am so ashamed of America at this point, did not think I could become more ashamed --- but sending cluster bombs OMG to Ukraine... It really has proven to me, this bunch has a very evil agenda and could care very little about Ukraine.
Will this move push Putin into using heavier weapons such as cluster bombs on the people of Ukraine? Or nukes?
Why is the US so careless with others' lives?
Sources --- https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/us/c … raine.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66140460
"US President Joe Biden has defended his "very difficult decision" to give Ukraine cluster bombs, which have a record of killing civilians.
The president said it had taken him "a while to be convinced to do it", but he had acted because "the Ukrainians are running out of ammunition".
Ukraine's leader hailed the "timely" move.
But the UK's PM suggested the country "discourages" the use of cluster bombs, while Spain criticized the decision.
When asked about his position on the US decision, Rishi Sunak highlighted the UK was one of 123 countries that had signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which prohibits the production or use of cluster munitions and discourages their use."
I did note that --- While cluster munitions are not banned internationally, more than 120 countries – including most NATO members – have signed on to a convention prohibiting their use. The US, Ukraine, and Russia are not party to that agreement. So I would think both sides will be lobbing Cluster bombs.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/7 … agreement.Whatever you say. I've been involved with a few tactical situations requiring making plans and executing them.
Now for some reality on day 499 of the invasion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSOOo1p7IPU
From a military and tactical perspective, Ukraine is doing everything correctly. They are advancing slowly, destroying ammunition depots, transportation methods, etc. When the Ukraine army reaches Melitopol, the russian army will be cut in half. I've seen the maps of this and the Ukraine army has not yet committed their strategic reserve. It is obvious they are setting things up before the deliver their main battle force. The russian army is falling for some of the most basic battlefield traps. They've been at this for over a year, they haven't learned. Why? It's obvious the russian troops are lacking experienced fighters. Their top down command structure is harming them in ways that is hard to describe. Ukraine is taking strategic areas, avoiding going directly at large groupings of russian soldiers. They're attacking at various parts of the front line cause a need for russia to constantly shift troops from area to another. This makes their troops vulnerable to attack.
Ken, your words would only mean something to a person who has no military background, doesn't know Ukraine, doesn't know what is happening in the war.
I'm not such a person.You are not evaluating the situation correctly because you are extremely biased and emotionally connected to the outcome.
I am not, I just evaluate the facts as I understand them.
I am against the conflict, always have been, always stated this administration wanted to escalate it, wanted the excuse to directly intercede, and would take their time walking the US into this war.
Nothing I have stated has been proven wrong, nothing I have seen makes me think Ukraine is any closer to "winning"."Nothing I have stated has been proven wrong, nothing I have seen makes me think Ukraine is any closer to "winning".
I would disagree and say nothing you've stated has been proven right. You have made some of the most outrageous statements based on nothing more than russian propaganda. There are many Ukrainians who are fluent in russian. They watch what the russian media claims. It is strange how you seem to claim many of the same things. The 7 to 1 kill ratio you claimed is right from an article in russian media. I find that interesting.
It the ways of war an army regularly taking territory from an enemy unable to sustain their defensive positions means the side on the offensive is winning.
Ever hear of the "Winter War?" The soviet union invaded Finland in 1939 with over 800,000 men. They had superiority in military equipment and manpower It lasted for 3 months. The russians lost over 300,000 men in three months. Finland was a tiny country compared to the Soviet Union. They successfully defended their country and inflicted huge losses to the Soviet Union. To end it Finland gave up 9 percent of its territory that was barren land that was undeveloped. Why? Europe and the US refused to supply them with weapons and get involved. If they had such support, the Soviet Union could have been driven out.
This is key because it made hitler believe the poor performance of the soviet union's army made him believe he could overrun the soviet union in WWII.
russia's military might has a history of failing when a country stands up to them and fights.
Exactly as I had said.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRdnliExqKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0nP6Pg47Wc
Don´t fall for Russian propaganda.
A Ukrainian friend came back from his hometown in June. He told me about the impact of the war on his hometown in north western Ukraine. The city is 250.000 and he had noticed that roughly every 2nd day a funeral was for a Ukrainian soldier.
Using my maths to process this info, i just do: 43 Mill. / 250.000 x 360 / 2 x 1,5 years = 46.440 killed Ukrainian soldiers during this war. That is a sad count of 86 per day.
Compare this to (probably biased) figures from https://www.minusrus.com/en and get a 5,5 ration in favour of Ukraine.
Population adjusted ratio should be near 3,3. So if the truth behind the fog of war is somewhere near this number, this might well explain the slow and cumbersome progress on each side. Neither side can really achieve an advantage. Russians not with their manpower superiority, Ukrainians not with their organisational and technological advantage.
This is my sober analysis of the situation without much looking at the media but more by talking to people.Well first, they don't have 43 million in Ukraine anymore, they have about half of that, the rest are refugees that have spread across the Western world.
I met one who was waitressing in West Yellowstone, MT, that's about as far as you can get from Ukraine.
Second, for every soldier killed, there are likely two that have been crippled, made combat ineffective. If even the low estimate of 200,000 Ukrainian soldiers killed is accurate, they have lost a total of 600,000 soldiers since the start of this conflict.
Either way, the Ukranian Army that had been trained for over 8 years, is gone. They are now taking civilians, rushing them through training, and sending them to the front lines.
The majority of them, won't be able to get out of their own way, and many will not react at all well once in a combat situation.
The Fog of War is bad... I agree, but as usual (and from too much experience) the Western Media is full of total BS, absolute garbage for trying to get an assessment of what is going on.
I suspect Russian media is even worse, they are in essence BOTH propaganda sources and not worth much.
So I don't go by any MSM sources, couldn't care less what they say is going on. In fact according to them, go back a few days ago and you would have thought Russia was being routed and Moscow itself was about to fall. Total stupidity... but they want the people living in the West to believe the Ukrainian Offensive is making great gains... that Russia is about to collapse.
When that doesn't happen over the course of the next couple of weeks... if Russia goes on a counter offensive and starts taking more territory, I wonder how that is going to go over with the people of the West?The beauty of statistics is that it is universal.
So whatever number game you play to downplay Ukrainian resources, you have to do the same for the Russian side.
From my volunteer assist to municipal refugee service in my city, i noticed Ukrainians being mostly (90%) elderly men (older than 65) or women with children. We have 1.000 in our city, more than enough to derive a sound impression on the Ukrainian refuge structure.
Ken, thanks for your mindful objections about MSM, but doesn´t change my assessment from previous comment.
.. Russia to collapse.. not by Ukraine military strength but by draining Russian economy through sanctions. China and India will be no help for Russia. Especially pragmatic China perfectly well understands that Russia is only an Oil and gas well but no significant consumer market. China may not like the collective West, but they understand the implications of a confrontation with the west.
All I can say is it is obvious you are not following what is happening in the war right now.
Suffice it to say, the Ukrainian army is advancing and the russian army is retreating.
Ukrainians are winning and overcoming tremendous obstacles.
It is like Israel taking on all the countries that surround it.
Okay, your link proves that Ukrainian forces are advancing on russian positions. The counter offensive is working. They are in a flanking movement in the north to encircle the russian troops in Bakmut.
I don't know why anyone would care what the Hungarian prime minister would say. He is no expert on anything associated with the military.
One of the biggest achievements lately has been the crossing of the Dinepro river. russians are retreating. The below story is a few days old. There are now hundreds of Ukrainian troops who have crossed the river and forced russian soldiers to fall back.
Ukraine's River Crossings Spell Trouble for Russia
krainian troops who have reportedly landed on the east bank of the Dnieper River are likely on a reconnaissance mission, a military expert has told Newsweek.
Russian military bloggers said over the weekend that Ukrainian forces had established positions on the river banks to the east of Kherson Oblast, sparking theories about Kyiv's next move in the war.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-russia … ng-1796205The link, the maps, show that Ukraine has not made any significant inroads at all, that almost no territory has been taken, despite significant casualties during their offensive to date.
It may be written to make it sound as if things are going well, but it has failed to turn into anything of substance on the map.When fighting against great odds, moving forward is far more success than moving backwards. Retaking 60 miles of territory is a success.
"almost no territory has been taken"
You mean "retaken" from an invading enemy.
Ukraine knows this will take time. Things are going well. It is complicated as is fighting any war.And during the 1st world war, for 4 years Britain and its allies did “not made any significant inroads at all, that almost no territory has been taken, despite significant casualties during their offensive to date.”
First World War... really?
Things like satellites, drones, missiles, helicopters, jets, etc. have changed how battlefields work just a tad since then.I don't think the point is that the weapons systems used today are so far advanced from those of WWI.
I believe the point that was being made was Britain and its allies didn't advance much in the first four years of WWI and experienced heavy casualties, yet they went on to win the war.
In the case of Ukraine, its military is advancing. Slowly but steadily.Mike is spot on in his reply to you; as he said "Britain and its allies didn't advance much in the first four years of WWI and experienced heavy casualties, yet they went on to win the war."
If you want to know what is going on in the Ukraine war here is the English version of a Ukrainian vlogger. He does a good job. Yes, he has an accent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbcQXKY … rt_radio=1Here is a July 6 update from the Ukraine war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyYmX0rYMZU232,000 Dead or Wounded: Putin’s Forces Are Getting ‘Ripped Apart’ in Ukraine
The Russian military is stalling the Ukrainian counteroffensive in the Donbas and southern Ukraine but at a terrible cost in casualties.
Russian units in the frontlines have lost approximately 20,000 men over the past four weeks and hundreds of weapon systems.
Losses are forcing the Russian military to draw units from across Russia, weakening the Kremlin’s overall national security posture.
Units in High Demand
For 32 days, the Ukrainians have been attacking and probing the extensive Russian defensive lines in search of weak spots that would pave the way for a much-needed operational breakthrough.
Kyiv’s forces have made progress in several sectors, they haven’t achieved advances comparable to those of the past fall when they liberated hundreds of square miles of territory in the east and south in just a few days.
But to be as effective as it has been so far, the Russian military has resorted to cannibalizing its national security posture to feed the defense against the Ukrainian counteroffensive. The Russian Ministry of Defense has relocated units from across the country to the frontlines in Ukraine, weakening Russia’s borders.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/23 … &ei=11Here is a view from a russian citizen about the propaganda concerning the war the media tells the people.
Sound familiar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x73ytMRk0EUkraine making progress in push to retake Bakhmut from Russian forces
Ukrainian troops have seized positions west of the city in the village of Klishchiivka.
Kyiv’s offensive push for the city began in mid-June, according to the Ukrainian General Staff. The British Ministry of Defence assesses that Kyiv has made “steady gains” to the north and south of Bakhmut. In the south, Ukrainian troops have seized positions on the high ground to the immediate west of the village of Klishchiivka, putting the Russian troops in the settlement in the unenviable position of taking fire from elevated positions. In the north, Ukrainian forces made “tactically significant gains,”according to the Institute for the Study of War, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank, as they pushed the Russian forces back toward the village of Yahidne.
On Monday, Syrskyi announced that Kyiv had put all of Bakhmut under “fire control,” meaning Ukrainian forces are now within striking range of all Russian targets.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-maki … 47662.htmlDay 502
One more day of Ukrainian army advances against the invaders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMgm-8NexlwSo if this is the case why does the US want to provide cluster bombs to Ukraine. When Russia used them the US said it was a war crime.
Does this mean that Biden wants to introduce war crimes now?The reality of cluster bombs is that they've been used by BOTH sides since the beginning of the war. The United States may provide such weapons for the Ukrainian Army, now, but others have provided such weapons for them in the past.
And I can find youtube videos just like that one saying Ukraine is getting a whooping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D5KuPUnHPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBNDjgDqjKQ
Proof that you are biased, too connected to the topic to be rational, is your insistence of claiming I'm a Russian or sympathizer, etc. your efforts to discredit the information I present go well beyond reasonable.
Much like some people who are too involved with politics, when confronted with information they do not want to acknowledge, label the messenger racist, extremist, Trump supporter, etc.
This is another BS war our "leaders" are going to drag America into, no matter how much it costs us, Ukraine, the EU... they don't care. Just like they didn't care about Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc.
The difference of course is, those countries didn't have nukes or a modern industrial capability.
They also didn't have half the world secretly and not so secretly supporting them, as Russia does now.Ken, no matter what video we all can find to support our individual views, one thing appears to be obvious: The war is going on for more than a year.
Should have ended long ago if Russia was as strong as pretended to be.
Should have ended within 2 months if Ukraine was as much depending on western support as always portrayed. Because in the first few months there was little support by the west. Only Poland and the baltics sent every old Soviet equipment they could spare as fast as possible.
Truth is not a glimps of the eye, truth comes to daylight over a long period of time.
For example why is Ukraine mastermind Zalushny still in his position after 16 months? Why are Russian generals exchanged every 3 months, not to mention the wrath of Prigoshin?My explanation of this, with faults I am sure:
Russia did not take Ukraine seriously, a mistake, as they had allowed the UK and US eight years... eight years to train, arm, and ready Ukraine for this conflict.
Russia rolled in, ill prepared, half seriously, telling the majority of their forces they were going in to "liberate" the people from an oppressive Ukraine regime.
This was only true in the Donbas regions, their efforts to go beyond that were met with heavy resistance from Ukraine forces that had spent 8 years getting trained up for it.
Then all the issues we have spoken about regarding Russian corruption, false reporting, also heavily impacted those first efforts.
Eventually, Russia realized it was in a serious fight for its existence, this was not a minor conflict like they dealt with in Georgia, this was a Western trap to draw them in, wear them down, cause instability and discontent within Russia.
The West miscalculated in many areas. Russia, instead of its military collapsing got its shit together. Russia, instead of being abandoned by the rest of the world, as had happened to Iraq, received support from its allies, and even pried one of America's closest allies away from it (Saudi Arabia) gaining its support.
Over the course of the first year, the Ukrainian Army that was built up by the West for 8 years was ground up.
Currently, the remainder of that, and its reinforcements and new equipment sent, are being ground up right now. Russia is destroying great numbers of armored vehicles and troops with mines, artillery, drones, etc. that Ukraine is throwing against its defenses.
The biggest reason the war is going the way it is now, is because this is how Russia wants it to go. It is sitting there letting Ukraine throw away lives and equipment on a very ill offensive.
Eventually, when Russia is ready, it will take whatever else it wants to take, and only the direct intervention of US/NATO forces can keep that from happening."Russia is destroying great numbers of armored vehicles and troops with mines, artillery, drones, etc. that Ukraine is throwing against its defenses."
Absolute nonsense. Where do you get such blatant lies? It is so annoying for you to come on to this thread and spread such nonsense.
Show me your sources. Tass and Pravada are not sources with much credibility.
You have yet to provide a credible source for your false accusations.
Why are you so afraid of the truth?
Ukraine in advancing in several areas. They are attacking and destroying ammo depots and other key military instillations in the areas occupied by the "Orcs" (Name Ukrainians give to the invading russians). russia has experiences significant losses to their military in terms of manpower and equipment.Mike, even on the West's sad MSM propaganda sites they are admitting it is not going well.
IE - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66306150
...The biggest reason the war is going the way it is now, is because this is how Russia wants it to go....
Really? Isn´t it more so because Russia is unable to perform better? And at the same time that Ukraine is also coming to its limits.
Anyways, Russia has only very limited industrial means, the industrial equivalent of the Netherlands of today (not the Dutch economic empire of the 18th century). Allows Russia only to supply its army with very, very little new stuff and almost entirely relies on plundering stocks.
And this industrially small Russia has teamed up with another industrial dwarf: Iran and questionable purchase of North Korean support.
China is stepping away from Russia as it perfectly well understands that trading the buying power of Russia and allies against the collective west is not a good idea.
The only hope for Russia to get out of this war only with bruises is that the West is loosing interest in this war. It is more a war of attention deficit syndrome and interest attrition by the West. Russia and Ukraine are the loosers in any scenario, even though not symmetrical. Russia is loosing far more.This is possible, I am not discounting that it could be the issue.
But I also think it is prudence and caution on the part of Putin/Russia.
I do not believe they want to escalate the war, or give excuse for the US to enter the war. I believe they suspect that is what the Biden Administration, or many in it, want.
They know that there are some nations, like Poland, that are willing to escalate the war as well.
I believe Russia would prefer to get to the negotiation table and end this, it is the Biden Administration (and the UK) that does not want this... or at least, will not concede/negotiate on Crimea or any of the Donbas.
I don't know, this is all just speculation, I have no idea what Russia really wants, but unlike the UK and US, I believe they feel they are in a fight for their very survival. They might not have entered into this with that mindset, but they should have it now.
As the drone strikes continue to rain down on Moscow, I am sure every Russian is beginning to believe the propaganda Putin has been putting out about the West for years.... As the drone strikes continue to rain down on Moscow, I am sure every Russian is beginning to believe the propaganda Putin has been putting out about the West for years...
Must be like a good 5 inch rain in Arizona. Drops fall 5 inches apart.
The 12 million Moskovites didn´t notice much, except by media amplification. And the Kremlin is in the dilemma of either pushing the story to be an existantial threat (then why no air defence?) or marginalizing the matter and calming down the people.
People withstanding indoctrination of "anglosaxon evil" for years will not be changed by an instance.Sounds like a jaded, anti-Russian perspective to me.
There are a great many people in America that one could say aren't supportive of Biden, and are not supportive of our government in general.
But if a few drones blew up some buildings in DC, I think there would be a collective support for Biden and the government that doesn't exist today.
I think Biden continues to say all the right things as well, to lend credibility and support to what Putin has been preaching for years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItvdbqSULKA
This has been going on now for 10 years, it was Biden then, its Biden now, Biden and those in his Administration give all the sound bites Russia needs to show to Russians that the US won't be happy until Russia itself has collapsed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpSrhDUDKHkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TleIWFhIblc
The video is from previous attacks a month ago.
But in general the channel is quite interesting. The guy asks provocative questions and sometimes the body language is saying more than words. Both, pro Kremlin and opposition voices are shown. Translations are very accurate, as far as i followed up.
Current drone target seems to have been the Russian MOD.
Previous target was in a part of Moscow where more privileged people live (like Beverly Hills??) Reactions were more like: "now they up there also feel the pain". Could also be said about people in remote regions when something is happening to or in Moscow.
Propaganda has been doing its job for decades. But the huge living standard gaps and associated sentiments always tear open new conflicts and sometimes Schadenfreude.
Now provide news reports from a reputable source.
It is more than just providing video.
Here is a story in the BBC that confirms the videos I've posted.
Can you do the same?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
"Proof that you are biased, too connected to the topic to be rational, is your insistence of claiming I'm a Russian or sympathizer, etc. your efforts to discredit the information I present go well beyond reasonable."
I do find it interesting that things you claim are found in russian media. I see what I do as correcting the falsehoods you try to present.
Some of the key falsehoods you like to present.
You refuse to acknowledge that Crimea was illegally annexed by russia. This is an established fact. The UN and majority of countries around the world agree with me.
You stick to the russian position that Putin had to invade Ukraine. This is another falsehood presented in the russian media. Russia was under no military threat from Ukraine. This is a fact.
When you made the claim that Ukraine is losing the war, I had to laugh.
russia is losing territory and Ukrainians are gaining territory. This is also a fact of the war. This is proven by many media outlets from all over the world.
I admit I am biased in favor of Ukraine. I've said before, I have relatives and friends there. It is the place where my ancestors have lived for a long time.
I also know the media and see consistencies in stories around the world. The Ukrainian army is slowly liberating territory from russian invaders. This is a fact.Thanks for the link. If I'm not too busy I usually catch up on events during an afternoon break by watching British Sky News for the updates - Albeit I sometimes switch to the BBC, to see their take on: Here's a recent sample of Sky News reporting on the war: https://youtu.be/z6RgCRkd4LM
Love to see hubbers asking for reliable news sources for what they post as opinion!
Need help finding one? For information purposes only:
https://discover.hubpages.com/entertain … -out-againAnalysis: Ukraine rolls back 6 months of Russian gains in 5 weeks
significant new weapons pledges.
Despite their battlefield difficulties, Ukrainian forces have continued to advance. Ukraine’s general staff said its forces seized 4sq km (1.8sq miles) over the previous week around the eastern city of Bakhmut. That would bring to 162sq km (63sq miles) the territory Ukraine claims to have recaptured since its counteroffensive began on June 4.
But the Washington-based Institute for the Study of War (ISW) think tank made its own independent assessment of recaptured territory and said the figure was closer to 253sq km (98sq miles).
“Russian forces have captured a total of 282 square kilometers in the entire theater since January 1. In five weeks, Ukrainian forces have liberated nearly the same amount of territory that Russian forces captured in over six months,” the ISW said.
A Ukrainian military intelligence unit commander said Bakhmut – almost completely occupied by Russian forces in early May after the war’s longest and bloodiest battle – was slowly but steadily falling back into Ukrainian hands.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/an … &ei=13Russian Public Approval of Ukraine War Dropping Rapidly: Survey
Russian public support for Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine has dropped significantly and many more people are now in favor of holding peace talks, according to an opinion poll conducted last month.
Just 45 percent of respondents were in favor of continuing what the Kremlin calls a "special military operation" in Ukraine, a survey conducted between June 16 and 19 by Russian Field, a nonpartisan Moscow-based research company, found. That's down 9 percentage points from a survey the company conducted in April 2022, just weeks after the war started.
In the new poll, 44 percent said Russia should engage in peace talks—up from 35 percent of respondents in April 2022.
In its latest poll, Russian Field surveyed a group of 1,604 people across Russia by phone. It was conducted a few weeks into the start of Ukraine's counteroffensive to recapture the territories seized by Russia throughout the war.
The number of respondents in favor of holding peace talks with Ukraine is at the joint highest level with a poll conducted in late September 2022, which is when Putin announced a partial mobilization of the population to draft about 300,000 men to fight in Ukraine.
That move sparked a max exodus of Russians fleeing to bordering nations, while attacks on military enlistment offices ramped up across the country.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ru … 5&ei=8Maybe we should get information from Europeans who are there.
Ukraine is on the verge of splitting Russia’s army
The Ukrainian main effort appears to be in the Zaporizhzhia region. A thrust has been made south of Orikhiv, towards Tokmak. This seems to be a reconnaissance in force by one of the Western-equipped attack brigades.
Should this probe break into the Russian lines and offer the possibility of a breakthrough, then the bulk of the Ukrainians’ second echelon force, the Tenth Corps, could be committed towards Melitopol on the coast. Tenth Corps holds most of the Western equipment and its troops are well-led, trained and comparatively fresh. However, the Ukrainians are also pressing around Bakhmut and Vuhledar, sowing uncertainty in the minds of Russian commanders.
This may soon create the circumstances for a break-out beyond the defensive zone and into more open country. It is then that the Western equipment and thinking would begin to pay dividends. The Russian army does not need to be defeated in detail but the typical Russian soldier must be made to feel the fear of being bypassed, with his enemy behind him, and for his commanders to realise that they have been outmanoeuvred. Death, withdrawal or surrender.
A successful strike on the axis Tokmak to Melitopol could split the Russian forces, presenting the possibility of those in the Kherson region being cut off and surrounded. Moreover, the land corridor to Crimea would be vulnerable to interdiction and the prospect of the Russian garrison there being isolated. These are all potential developments as the full Ukrainian operational design becomes clearer. At this stage, much is still speculation, but the developments of recent days present the possibility of decisive moves on the battlefield.
Given this prospect of success, the wider strategic goal must remain an independent Ukraine.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uk … &ei=10
Another video from the Ukraine journalist and former soldier's English speaking channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eglIsf6qGQ
CBS Story about the advancing Ukrainian army
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puFVJBvnYEsNine minutes ago from the UK Telegraph
"Ukrainian counter-offensive breaks through Russian defences in major push
Ukraine launched a “massive” Himars strike on a key Russian-held city in the south of the country as a major thrust in its counter-offensive showed the first signs of success.
The long-range missile strike reportedly hit an ammunition dump in the Zaporizhzhia town of Tokmak, a vital logistics hub connecting occupied Crimea to Donbas.
Earlier, Ukraine’s 47th Mechanised brigade broke through Russian defences to reach the outskirts of Robotyne, a village 12 miles to the north-east.
Vladimir Rogov, the head of the Moscow-installed administration in Zaporizhzhia region, said the “massive” Himars strike on Tokmak had hit near the railway station.
Earlier, he admitted that Kyiv had breached Russian lines near Robotyne, claiming that its forces were using 100 armoured vehicles, including US Bradley fighting vehicles and German Leopard tanks. Other Russian sources put the number of armoured vehicles at between 30 and 50.
A member of the 47th brigade told the Telegraph it was using Western weapons to “destroy the enemy” in a fight over the defensive trenches north of the village.
Western officials have suggested the attack on Robotyne signalled the beginning of a new phase in Ukraine’s counter-offensive, with the introduction of thousands of well-trained troops to the battle.
British intelligence officials described the push as a “major offensive operation” while officials in Washington described it as the “main thrust” of Kyiv’s long-heralded counter-offensive.
Ukrainian forces had likely “managed to penetrate and drive through tactically challenging defensive positions”, according to the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), a US-based think-tank.
The advance came after more than two months of grinding, slow-paced gains following Kyiv’s launch of its counter-offensive in the hope of reaching the Sea of Azov in order to sever Moscow’s land bridge to occupied Crimea.
Pentagon officials told the New York Times that Ukrainian forces had managed to secure a pathway through the heavy minefields in Zaporizhzhia, and were piling into attack through the channel."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-confir … 42932.htmlUkraine has a limited amount of troops, armor, artillery, etc.
Ukraine is currently using up the majority of its reserves in the current offensive against Russian defenses.
Soon, their ability to continue the offensive efforts will be exhausted.
The Russians are sitting back with hundreds of tanks and hundreds of thousands of troops, waiting.
The Russians will drive the Ukrainians back past the points that they control now. This is most likely to happen late summer, early fall.
Ukraine does not have superior numbers, they do not have air superiority, they do not have the means to generate their own tanks and artillery, they are dependent on other nations donating the equipment to their efforts.
Ukraine cannot win, it is conceivable that Russia could give up, but Ukraine never had the ability to win this militarily, on the battlefield.
Even if Ukraine was able to take Crimea by force, how do they occupy it?
How does Ukraine keep Russia from retaking any territory they want to take?
Ukraine does not have the ability to mobilize and maintain a million man army (or more).
The only thing that ever made sense to me, was that this was a pretense to America getting directly involved, it was the only way Ukraine could win, with considerable and direct aid by NATO forces.
It is a terrible tragedy, this is what happens when you have delusional, warmongering leadership like we have running the show in DC today.... warmongering to what end?
... we need to know.
How can it be for the sake of Ukraine democracy?
- more like, for the sake of Ukraine's demise.Ukraine is steadily retaking territory. russia is experiencing terrible defeats.
The Ukrainian people will never give up this fight to free their land from the invaders. The support of Europeans and American is appreciated at levels I can't begin to describe.There are two problems with this.
Ukraine is suffering far more casualties and lost equipment than the Russians.
I find it hard to imagine someone who claims to have military experience, can choose to ignore the confirmed reports (as well as videos) telling of the casualties and losses in the mine fields, Ukraine's own leadership is reporting how horrible it is.
Talking about Ukraine taking its land back... well the reality is the land Russia is defending is filled with Russian speaking individuals, who were trying to break free from Ukraine, or had already seceded and joined Russia back in 2014.
Its not like Crimeans are wanting Ukraine to come into their land, destroy their homes and businesses, and are going to be happy about it. The majority of them want nothing to do with Ukraine. Or this war.Ken: Got a source of any of this info on Crimeans?
What if we'd just let Hitler keep Poland in 1939?There are a boatload of sources on this.
The internet is an easy thing to peruse. Of course, you aren't going to find too many Crimean or Russian productions, but even the ones with a heavy Western bias show that the majority of people were/are happy being Russian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BieRxOhZB4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e706O7znX4k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnuk5HeHi4I
As for your second sentence.... Trump is Hitler, Putin is Hitler, back in the day Bush was Hitler, its old, tired, lazy.Why do you try to propagate this "Crimeans are happy being russian" nonsense?
This is from someone who still has relatives living in Crimea currently. This is what he reports. I think his views are a bit more legitimate than those by anyone outside Crimea looking in.
"People take to the streets with anti-war placards and Ukrainian songs, despite threats and detentions.
Simferopol residents began to stage one-person protests in the early days of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They held anti-war placards in front of the city council, World War II, and monuments of Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko.
Most protesters face administrative penalties, and some are subjected to criminal charges for referring to Russia’s invasion as a war. By law, it has to be referred to as a special operation. The elderly are no exception. Lydia Pronina, for example, was fined after publicly condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
City lights promoting propaganda on the war with Ukraine receiving improvements from activists. Funeral wreaths and a handwritten poster that reads “Rest in Pieces” are examples. Some, such as a 55-year-old Sevastopol resident, attempted to remove war banners, while others cut the wheels of cars with the propaganda sign Z. In addition, Kerch, the owner of a company, stated that if he saw another Z sign on the front window of his tractor and he will have it removed and the employee, immediately. Krym Kray Partisanskoy Slavi – Crimea is a land of partisan glory, one of the most active resistance units reported. Partisans in this over 5,000-member community constantly repeat that Crimea is a part of Ukraine and that everyone there is waiting for liberation.
Its activists mark Russian flags with the swastika, equating Putin’s regime to a Nazi one, reveal names of collaborators, inform the Ukrainian Army of the latest military operations in Crimea, paint over Z marks on cars, and leave pro-Ukrainian leaflets on buildings and infrastructure. Here are some that say, “Attention! Ruscists, eight years and three months, we have been waiting for the Ukrainian Armed Forces to conduct a counteroffensive and liberate Crimea from Ruscists. We’ve been waiting for eight years and three months. We have weapons and information on your whereabouts, how many of you there are, and what we need to burn you. For Bucha, Hostomel, Irpen, and Mariupol, we are ready to wipe you from the face of the world. Wait, you beasts!”"There are a boatload of sources on this.
The internet is an easy thing to peruse. "
When a writer makes a statement as fact, it is the writer's responsibility to cite a source - not the reader's to go searching for one. Without one it is opinion and shouldn't be passed off as fact.This is a forum, filled with opinion, and only a modicum of fact.
I happen to give links to topics that are contested more-often than most.
The point is, it is better to search for facts and not rely on another to present it. If you find yourself in disagreement with what is stated.I must say, you did supply a boatload of sources. Not sure she read your comment? Seems some just flop out a sentence or two, that is curious at best and makes little sense in light of the conversation.
Never really going as far as to discuss the subject, but to critique the statement. Go figure. At any rate, the links you provided were enlightening.
What you just wrote only exists in your imagination.
It in no way reflects the reality of the Ukrainian war.OK Mike, here is some more recent reporting on the current situation.
https://rumble.com/v3373hq-summer-opera … litar.html
https://rumble.com/v32y562-russian-defe … y-ope.html
https://rumble.com/v331556-larry-c-john … -leak.html
Ukraine is running out of men and equipment, the offensive is going to stall, and Russia is going to counter attack. This is based on what other people are saying, showing, reporting.
I did not include links like this (below), which I don't believe are accurate, but state it is Russia breaking through and on the attack, not Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSpQ5leon10
It is not easy to process the facts, the fog of war and all that, but I do it without bias, something you, understandably, cannot do.Ken, you are on the wrong path.
It is interesting to follow Russian war bloggers and their channels and compare with Ukrainian channels. While Ukrainian sources like https://liveuamap.com/en
report on what is happening in Ukraine, Russian bloggers like Rybar or War Gonzo report on what is going on in the Russian occupied parts of Ukraine.
As always, it is important to look at developments, at changes in reporting, in sentiments. And this does not look favorable for Russia.
Just to analyse most recent blog from Russian war blogger Rybar:
https://rybar.ru/hronika-speczialnoj-vo … 2023-goda/
Reading between the lines to understand what was stated (all drones on Moscow were shot down) and then what was indirectly admitted (an office building from the ministry of trade was hit.. then lengthy explaining why this building is not important).
Rybar goes through every region of the conflict and reports like a war diary, like "All Quiet on the Western Front" by Erich Maria Remarque. Summary: Russia is attacking nowhere, Ukraine is advancing on multiple theaters.
Sorry, Ken. Development is not what you suggest. It is more on the contrary. And that is taken from pro Russian sources.I did not say Russia was attacking anywhere, though some of my links have shown this or stated it.
What I believe Russia to be doing is defending. It is what I would do.
They have laid their mine fields, they have their artillery markers set, they have their observers and their drones.
It is Ukraine that is trying to capture Crimea, Russia is trying to prevent it.
The Russians most likely have multiple stages of fallback positions, again with mines and artillery markers pre-set. Ukraine breaks through one line of Defense and behind that is another.
Fallback, rather than take massive casualties, and as Ukraine moves forward hit them with more artillery, more drones, get them to stretch their supply lines out, get them more in the open and without defenses dug in, and decimate their forces.
If Russia is competent, Ukraine will be combat ineffective (offensively) by August. If Russia is incompetent, Ukraine might actually make it to striking range of Crimea."If Russia is incompetent, Ukraine might actually make it to striking range of Crimea."
You need to learn more about what is actually happening in the war. The Ukrainian IS in striking range of Crimea. That is why Crime is being attacked by drones and artillery on a regular basis. Ammo depots are being blown up, train tracks are being blown up, more than one bridge in Crimea has been attacked and blown up. Supply lines are being attacked.
Then there is all of the sabotage being conducted by Ukrainians and Tartars in Crimea.
Military experience lets me know this is what happens before soldiers are sent into an areaMeanwhile, we have signs emerging that Russian economy is in trouble.
The Russian Ruble is loosing against all major currencies (USD, Euro, Yuan, Rupie, Yen).
Actually this happens because sanctions do work. Russia has found India and China to take their fossile fuels. But at a lower cost and at the same time at higher transport cost.
Now Russia may be sitting on mountains of Rupies and Yuan. While Yuan may be traded for product imports from China, who needs Rupies?
With troubles in the Chinese economy as well, China now feels the pain that they traded Russian close ties (only 1,5% of world economy) over the collective western trade. So China will be of no help.
As Bloomberg wrote: Russian economy may be growing (due to the war efforts), but the economy is fragile and sanctions put a time bomb under the foundation. Ruble shows the real McCoy.
Thank you for sharing your delusional assessment of a tangible occurrence.
It is easy to talk and provide nothing to back up what you are saying.
Again, I follow this very closely on a daily basis. We look at the russian media, bloggers as well as battlefield reports and more.
"The Russians are sitting back with hundreds of tanks and hundreds of thousands of troops, waiting.
The Russians will drive the Ukrainians back past the points that they control now."
I can say without a shred of hesitation that nothing you say has a seed of truth in it. I know from my own military experience it is not possible to hide hundreds of troops and hundreds of tanks that are massed for battle. Should this be the case, it would be well known. If the russian army had this capability, they would have used it by now. The russian army continues to experience serious losses in manpower and equipment on a daily basis. They have a troop moral problem, desertion problem. High ranking officers are being eliminated on the battlefield or fired by the russian military bureaucracy. Large numbers of their population have left for other countries rather than be sent to the russian army.
You really need to look into this further before making such outlandish statements.There is nothing outlandish about my statements.
They are not what you want to hear, or believe, but they will prove to be very factual in the coming months.
You are correct, you cannot hide hundreds of tanks and hundreds of thousands of troops, and the Russians are not. They are merely keeping them back and waiting for the Ukrainians to be done killing themselves in the Russian mind fields and artillery barrages.
The slaughter that is going on is deplorable, the Ukrainians are conducting war efforts based on politics, so that those in DC and Brussels can keep their delusions alive.
They still believe they can cause Russia to collapse from within, they still believe they can defeat Russia and carve it up into smaller states beholden to their corporate interests.
And while it would benefit America and Europe greatly if it were to go that way, I don't see it occurring, too many military minds that are very familiar with what is going on there, that can speak to what they believe and are not gagged because they are still active duty, are convincing when they explain why Ukraine will not be successful.
... we need to know.
How can it be for the sake of Ukraine democracy?
more like for the sake of Ukraine's demise.Here is the latest from the battlefield.
Yes, much of this can be confirmed by russian media and war bloggers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STwXO5k0_3k
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