Thousands of protesters in Illinois Raise my Taxes!

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   Arthur Fontesposted 14 years ago

   Thousands rally at Illinois Capitol — for a tax raise
   
   Thousands of teachers and other union workers descended on the state Capitol on Wednesday and chanted "raise my taxes" to try to pressure politicians to avoid major budget cuts.
   
   
   http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010 … income-tax
   
   
   This is like fleas and ticks protesting me that I need to feed my dog more.

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      logic,commonsenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with them!  The legislature should raise the taxes of those who desire it and leave the rest of us alone!

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         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         logic,
         
         Where is your name from?

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         Paul Revereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If someone wants to raise their taxes they are free to donate to the government of their choice. Just do not expect the money to be well spent!

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      Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      And that you need to feed it more by having you eat less.

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   William R. Wilsonposted 14 years ago

   There's no way in hell I'd be able to afford a private teacher for my kids that could provide the same service as public education.  I get a fantastic value for what i pay in taxes and I'm very happy with it, thank you.

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      Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Do you take any deductions when you file your taxes?  Why?
      
      Do you accept a refund from the IRS if you have one coming?  Why?
      
      You could probably volunteer to pay more taxes if you are so inclined.

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         William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Those questions are irrelevant to my point Arthur.  Even if I gave up my entire salary in taxes, I wouldn't be able to afford a full time teacher for my kids - plus all the other public services I take advantage of:  public libraries, public transportation, interstate highways, fire departments, police, public defenders (not that I've ever needed one but I'm glad there is such a thing) etc. etc.
         
         While you might have some legitimate complaints about the quality of public education, the reality is that no private entity could do as much for us as cheaply as the government does.

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            Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I would bet that most if not all of those union protesters are better off then the average citizen in Illinois.
            
            Should every American need to make a sacrifice so union thugs can maintain their lifestyle?

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               William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Teachers are union thugs?  LOL!
               
               I've already stated that I'm happy to pay taxes so that teachers (and firefighters, and policemen, and soldiers) are paid well for what they do.  You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.  I don't want monkeys teaching my kids and protecting my neighborhood - I want highly qualified and educated people to do it. 
               
               The government is in the best position to provide these services at the lowest cost to the majority. 
               
               If you disagree, why don't all you libertarians go and start a laissez faire state where you pay a private entity for every single service you use. 
               
               Come back and tell me how it works out.

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                  Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  "I've already stated that I'm happy to pay taxes so that teachers (and firefighters, and policemen, and soldiers) are paid well for what they do."
                  
                  This coming from the guy who wants to cut defense spending, the military salutes you!

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                     William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Wanting to cut the military budget is not the same as wanting to see soldiers get paid less or go without body armor. 
                     
                     It's just like a business:  don't spend your money on stupid things.

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                        Shadesbreathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        YEP~!!!

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                  Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  Not the teachers I worded that wrong.  I am talking about the people who leach off the backs of the teachers.  The Union Thugs.

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               bgpappaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Would the Union Thugs be the teachers?

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                  Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  As I stated earlier the in the thread I worded that wrong the thugs are not the teachers they would be the UNION thugs.
                  
                  You know the guys who do nothing but leach off of the backs of their members.

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                     Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You seem to know as little about teaching - as you do about unions.
                     
                     My father taught HS electronincs for 20 years. I belong to a union. So I am qualiried to say a little about both.  Teachers work incredibly hard - can any parent with 2 or 3 at home imagine supervising more than a dozen - and get constructive teaching done? And the work the students do is reviewd and corrected and graded outside the regular school day.
                     
                     Unions ARE the memebers. There are no external 'thugs'. We elect our reps in my association ALWAYS from the working ranks.  I have plenty of criticism when they screw up, but I have no one to blame but myself because I elected them - I can call and write and be involved - the union is ME!

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                        Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        
                        
                        Top ten Highest Paid Union Bosses:
                        
                        
                        http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21533
                        
                        What do these guys contribute to society in general?

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                  Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  by,
                  
                  At times they are to the children. You will learn what I teach!

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               Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I assume you agree that the teachers are exercising their right to free speech the same as the Tea Partiers?
               
               It strikes me as an oversimplification to blame only the teachers and school board bureaucracy for the problems in urban schools. There are many reasons for high dropout rates and low achievement in reading, writing, math and other basics. Even the very best and most highly motivated teachers have a hard time achieving results in an environment characterized by unemployment, impoverished, single-parent families, drugs and crime. The inner cities are suffering a breakdown in many respects of which public education is only one.

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                  Arthur Fontesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  
                  
                  
                  Not only do they have a right I applaud them for letting everyone know their agenda.

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                  Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Ralph,
                  
                  I guess it's eugenics vs euthenics.

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      Padrinoposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't think you need a private teacher to give you the service that the public school system provides, you can probably hire any crack head in your city to provide the same service for a couple of rocks a day.

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What crazy world are you living in?  Kids today can't hold a candle to graduates a decade ago, much less those of us who graduated further back than that. 
      
      http://literaryculture.suite101.com/art … ding_rates
      
      I'd like to make this point specifically:
      
      
      
      It's really scary when you have adults who have been through graduate school and they're posting a 20% decline in reading proficiency.  So much for public education.

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         William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I'm not talking about the quality of public education as much as I'm talking about the overall value of what we get for our tax dollars.  I agree that public education is going downhill in many ways (although the metrics can be a little misleading).
         
         I actually have a few problems with the whole theory of public education in general and the fact that it is simply indoctrination into the industrialized herd/worker mentality. 
         
         If I had my way I'd homeschool my kids or hire a private tutor.  But, as I've pointed out, there's no way I could afford that. 
         
         So I take what I can get.  I can do what my parents did, and fill in the gaps for my kids, teach them the things they won't learn in public school.

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            ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Will, you really need to read up on economics.  Classical economics not that Keynesian nonsense.  Most people would rather homeschool or tutor their kids but they can't.  Why?  Because having a "free" public option in education means that normal economic forces are not allowed to work.  In a normal market, prices tend to fall over time.  One of the things that keeps prices from falling is a subsidy.  Public education is a subsidy of the educational market. 
            
            That's one of the reasons why while we spend more per student we're getting less and less quality.  Google "Theory of Bureaucratic Displacement" and Dr. Max Gammon.  I'm curious to know if you really know what your kids are being taught in school and if you need to "fill in the gaps" or re-educate your kids entirely.

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         LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Jeez, its like Fahrenheit 451.
         
         The only way that can be fixed is by having kids stop spending so much time on the TV and video games, which requires responsible parents with the time to actually be there to take care of their kids, which in turn requires the parents to not have to both work long hours to be able to live well, which requires a good economy which is helped by having well educated adults going into the work force and getting good paying jobs and contributing to the entire system, which requires that those children to get a good education and good job by going to college and getting a degree, but to go to college these children need to do well in school and have parents that have the money and time to help them get their. It seems to be an endless cycle.
         
         Looking back at this it seems to be a jumbled mess, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

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            ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            The solution is rather simple.  It takes parents being that parent.  In the end we pay these people, they should be offering us a service second to none.  If they can't do that, then we should have the freedom to choose what's best for ourselves.

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               LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I'm sorry, but can you clarify that a little? What do you mean, "It takes parents being that parent"?

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                  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Being the parent that speaks up at PTA meetings and school board meetings.  Far too often people let this stuff happen on autopilot.  Perhaps that is to be expected as parents are hard at work providing for their families, but it's difficult to keep groups like school boards focused on the work they are supposed to be doing and less on the ivory tower nonsense that is creating a situation in which our future is less educated than our past.

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                     LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Oh, your sentence makes sense now. You're completely right. Thanks.

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         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         led,
         
         I love it. But they are better at computer games, we didn't have them.

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      Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      William,
      
      Try paying two care-givers, and helping to support family. That's just for starters. If my taxes go up it hurts many.

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   habeeposted 14 years ago

   Great analogy, Arthur!

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   habeeposted 14 years ago

   I agree somewhat with William. I don't really have a big problem with paying taxes for services. What I hate is paying taxes that go for stupid grants like studying the sexual habits of South American tree frogs!

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      samboiamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Nothing like a horny toad.

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      Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      We all can agree with that, but the big budget items are two wars, Medicare due to skyrocketing health care costs and the huge ongoing military budget which continues to rise, thanks to the military-industrial complex, even though the Cold War ended 20 years ago. Corruption is also a significant factor in some urban school districts. A financial administrator appointed for the Detroit public schools has exposed outright theft and waste of millions of dollars by corrupt school administration officials.

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         LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         http://kiplinger.com/infographics/balan … t/map.html
         
         19% of the government's budget is spent on the military.
         
         Healthcare is 23%.
         
         Pensions are 22%
         
         Discretionary spending - which includes education - is only 16%.
         
         If we could successfully cut major costs, or even just minor cuts, out of defense, healthcare, or pensions we could provide much more money to public education.

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            William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I just want to add that education is only a very small part of that 16%.  Discretionary spending includes the space program, national parks, environmental protection, disaster relief, homeland security, medical research, foreign aid, etc. etc. etc.
            
            Otherwise, right on.

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         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Ralph,
         
         I'm in shock, DETROIT!  That city is almost 100% Democratic, it must be a mistake.

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   MikeNVposted 14 years ago

   Gee... people who suck money from the public via Government Jobs want to raise taxes so their jobs are secure, but people who don't suck money from Government Jobs get to foot the bill.
   
   That makes sense.  50% of the public now relies on Government for most of their income.  By 2020 it's projected to be 66%.
   
   America is being destroyed by Government.  In the not to distant future it's not inconceivable that the private sector will disappear all together.  Complete collapse of the country.
   
   The Government can not produce anything but despair and destruction.
   
   None of the pro government people really want to work... they just want handouts and expect other people to pay their way.
   
   That system doesn't work... and results in extreme poverty.
   
   As noted there is nothing stopping these Government Employees from taking voluntary pay cuts or donating a larger portion of their income to the Government.  All they have to do is write the check and Uncle Sam will cash it.
   
   And the media always picks up on anything to do with Teachers and Schools... because that's the easiest way to control the population.  Always use children as hostages to try and get their way.  What a load of crap.
   
   There are thousands of cuts that can be made before education.

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      William R. Wilsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "None of the pro government people really want to work... they just want handouts and expect other people to pay their way."
      
      Are you including me in this ridiculous blanket statement?

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      Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Mike,
      
      Don't you get it, they want to destroy America. Then everyone will depend on gov't (them) for any and everything.maybe they will have us become a colony for another country.

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   Shadesbreathposted 14 years ago

   I don't know if I'd go as far as to call teachers ticks on the dog.  District administrators and union reps, sure, a frighteningly large number of them are.  But I know a crap ton of teachers and they are good, hard-working people stuck in overflowing classrooms following ever-changing and increasingly moronic guidelines that grow more and more distant from anything resembling effective pedagogy as each school year goes by. 
   
   There's so much social programming and crap going on now, so much politics, nobody above the classroom cares about the 3 Rs, and the teachers don't have time to teach those because they're too busy meeting arbitrary requirements that are being administered by the large bureaucratic mass hovering politically above them. The money goes to feeding that fat mass and developing new programs and enforcing them.  It costs very little to teach math, reading and writing.  PE is cheap too, a soccer ball and four orange cones will get it done.  Get those little fat f-ers outside and make them run and stop testing their fitness levels every two weeks to appease the statisticians on the payroll trying to justify their jobs.

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      habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I'm a retired teacher, and you're exactly right! Every year, we had less time to actually TEACH because we were bogged down in red tape. Now we have to teach the kids values and we have to make sure they feel good about themselves. My question was always, "Whose values do we teach? How do we decide?"
      
      And BTW, there are no teacher unions around here.

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         Doug Hughesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Habee - as a retired teacher - do you think we improve schools by increasing the number of students per teacher? Will we inspire excellence by slashing teacher salaries?

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   By your logic, I am older than you so I'm better educated, so you'd better accept that I know better than you do and not argue with me over politics

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Not really, you weren't educated in a US public school.  Be thankful.  I know you think you know better than I do, but not really.  Still the great debate goes on and on and on....

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         Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         So sad how a sense of humour was not included in your education.

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   Arthur Fontesposted 14 years ago

   I think we can all agree this is a tough economy right now.  There are many people who would be happy with any employment.
   
   Then there are people who have pension plans and paid health care, vacations, sick days, personal days,  etc. etc. etc.
   
   All paid for with tax dollars.  Then to have the audacity to ask those that have their heads above water to sacrifice more of their income to sustain a spoiled aristocracy of government workers.
   
   When you see a guy treading water do you throw him a floatation device or an anchor?
   
   Once again thank you for exposing your superior attitude to your fellow Americans!

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      ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The good news, if you can call it that, is that the public education system is unsustainable.  The fact that these protests are occurring is the first signs that they system is cracking up.  It's funny how many times the "public option" in any field of endeavor tends to not only be worse than the "private option" but is almost always unsustainable. 
      
      Harvey, the only quibble I have with your characterization of Detroit is the use of the word Democratic.  Truth be told the city has been in decline, like many in the US, due to Progressive policies.  Remember Republicans can be Progressives too, just ask W and John McCain, or Arlen Specter for that matter.
      
      Funny thing is that we probably would have been staunch Democrats in the years after the Civil War.  At least until William Jennings Bryan came to power and shifted the Democratic Party to a more Progressive stance in the 1890's.  Come to think of it, that's about the time we stopped having the Hamiltonian vs Jeffersonian discussions and started debated on which form of Hamiltonian centralization we should use.

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         Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         led,
         
         A better examle of a Republican Progressive would have been Teddy Roosevelt.
         
         I couldn't say Progressives in Detroit because the voters would not have understood. I truly did not understand what a Progressive is, until Obama was elected. They voted blindly for Democrat's.

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            ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Nixon, if you'd like a more contemporary Republican or better yet GW Bush.  He opened the door Obama kicked open.  Not to mention Medicare Part D.

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   Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years ago

   Teachers have it so bad. A friend of mine taught H.S. and had an ending salary of $125,000. His miserable pension is only 80%.

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      Paul Revereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      How does the poor guy get by?

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