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Obviously yes as Germany, France, and Great Britian have learned! It's time for the USA to make English the official language of our nation, and reject any attempts to accept Sharua law!
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 … _le_1.html
That link has nothing to do with the topic of the forum. But yes, policies based on mutliculturalism have not have a good effect here in Great Britain and even most people on the left now think that the multiculturalism project was a failure.
What policies have not had a good effect? And where is your evidence that most people on the left think it was a failure? I certainly don't know anybody who thinks thus.
I'd rather accept the evidence of my own eyes than the racist blatherings of Cameron.
america has been pretty sucessful under the single culture approach. Not to oust the heritage of the individual, but to maintain the strength of unity as "one nation under God."
I would have thought that America was the world's first example of multiculturalism, with peoples emigrating from every part of the world over several centuries. From the first European settlers, from Britain, Holland, Spain, Italy, Germany, Portugal etc. Then of course there was the enforced emigration of African slaves, and the later emigration from Eastern Europe and Russia, Asia, the Middle East and the new African settlers. I doubt there is not a representative of any nation not now living in the Americas, just as is the case in Western Europe. Then, of course we mustn't forget the original Native American people, who lived in the lands now known as the Americas for many thousands of years before white man discovered them and made them his own.
However, I do agree that Americans, from wherever they originate seem to see themselves as Americans first. In the UK, people tend to describe themselves as black, Asian, African, Muslim, Hindu etc before they describe themselves as British. The only people who tend to think of themselves as British now, are the native English, who rarely describe themselves as English. The Scots and the Welsh however, rarely describe themselves as British. There has developed a certain embarrassment for the English describing themselves as such.
That is exactly right. Americans are American first and foremost. It is the biggest melting pot in the world. The ethnic diversity is unlike any other place that I can think of. I believe that a major part of its sucess is due impart to the unity of a single culture that we share. when people become divided we become weak, and it starts at the core.
Unfortunately it's the god you think we should unite under that is responsible for the majority of problems. Freedom of religion does not now, nor has it ever meant one nation under your god or any other god. I know that's a hard concept to understand but I have faith that most wont even attempt an understanding of it.
The problem is not multiculturalism. There is no reason a culture comprising people from different cultures living under the same laws should automatically fail. The problem is racism and xenophobia, of which David Cameron and his foul little Tory party has in spades.
accommodation policies are good. People in general have ways to co-exist and culture can be learned, share and use to to your advantage. There emerge a new set of culture which is the result of the intermingling of different cultures.
In terms of language, the immigrant should learn the language predominantly used in the area where they are migrating so that they don't have difficulty filling up forms and the government can conserve (time and resources) on translation expenses and adding additional page for a specific language to fill up.
I don't think it is a failure because culture is dynamic, there is no measure to say it is a failure. it is evolving process and we can't control cultural exchange it is inevitable.
Again, if you're an immigrant, be sure to learn the language - it is to your own advantage - learn to fit in the culture because you don't have a choice, maybe preserving some of your own personal preferences.
Learning the language and fitting in is NOT multiculturalism, but it is what's necessary to keep a country from falling into ruin.
you should study the basics of cultural dynamics. Language is one of the most important aspect of culture. Language used affects the social dynamics in a multi cultural setting.
Well I guess one is never too young to learn. Apparently you're correct with respect to the term: multiculturalism which was generated in 1960-1965. Still the point that prettydarkhorse present seem it will certainly need to apply to multicultruralism if we're talking about a society of different cultures in order for effective communicationws and relations to exist.
What attempts "to make America accept sharia law?" I'm not aware of any, and metropolitan Detroit where I live has the largest population of Muslims in the US. I don't know any Muslims, but from what I've read and heard, they appear to be assimilating. Some women wear hijab?, but many or most don't. I haven't heard of any sharia incidents.
In the UK there is some acceptance of Sharia law with the resultant uproar from the bigots!
Sharia law is applied in civil courts only, not criminal courts. Both parties must agree to be tried by Sharia law and no punishment can be outside the law of the land.
It isn't all about dismemberment and flogging, mainly it's about not putting people on trial in conflict with their religion.
NICE! She puts it out there: Lalo finally just admits it, and says she is a racist. She wants em' out! "Get em' out!" Lalo, can I say it is not a shocker that you want all of "them" out of the country, and that your basic foundation of political belief is founded in bigotry. Nice. Good human being. Yeah. FAIL
Lol, what she fails to recognise is that ENGLISH is the official language of the ENGLISH for a very obvious reason, FRENCH is the official language of the FRENCH for a very obvious reason, GERMAN is the official language of the GERMANS for a very obvious reason..........
and that ENGLISH is an immigrant language like any other language spoken within America. Until you have the American language, probably in about 1500 years, any language adopted as the official language is a largely borrowed one.
What she also seems to have failed to acknowledge is that the English language has been developed over centuries from various other languages, including Latin and French, and is considered a Germanic language. When your country is developed enough to have naturally created its own language, which will probably be called AMERICAN, it will without doubt be developed from a variety of languages including English, Spanish, Chinese and Italian.
It makes me laugh how many white-Americans have Irish great-grandparents, or Italian great-grandparents, or British great-grandparents, yet would effectively welcome a policy which - had it have been in place 200-300 years ago - would see there being pretty much no white people in America anyway (the removal of all immigrants). I'm talking about racist white people of course.
Americans have a short history, but that should make it easier to remember, immigrant whites shipped over immigrant blacks and immigrant chinese, white controlled corporations effectively still ship in Mexicans (to work on land which was once part of Mexico). You are all immigrants, and for that reason you should all consider each other purely and unconditionally equal. Asides from Native Americans, who can consider you all occupiers if they so please.
Of course it is. When you push people, they push back. It was doomed to failure.
While I think it's great to try to have multi-cultures peacefully live together, the fact is human nature tends to want to cling to what it is use to.
As the saying goes, "birds of a feather flock together". In general, not all but in general, Muslims want to stick with other Muslims.
Whites want to stick with other whites, blacks with blacks, country types don't like city types, fitness types don't want to be around lazy people.
Blue collar workers don't want to pal around with wall street types, Goth types don't pal around with tech nerds, and on and on,,,,,
That is simply the way humans are wired, they want to be around people just like themselves. Again, IN GENERAL! Not all, and for those who wish to learn about others and fit in with them, fantastic.
Then why do pretty girls want to hang with ugly girls?
Language is just a fraction of the culture but it is one that unites many cultures, so I would be in favor of an official language here in the US.
To avoid competition, stupid (no offence)!
Are you saying there is no official language in US or is it a joke?
We have no official language here in the US, although English is the de facto language.
I recall hearing that almost every session of Congress has attempted to make English the official language but it gets blocked by the ACLU who claim that such a law would violate the Constitutions clause on Due Process for non-English speakers.
To date, 27 of our states have made English the Official language and only print state documents, driver's exams and road signs, and other state professional exams in English.
The only thing selecting an official language would do is alienate those of different backgrounds. Why is seperation of indiviual people so desired by some in this country. Where does the need to feel superior to so many others come from and why is it being celebrated and fought for by so many Americans?
Possessing a functioning brain is not a requirement to be an American citizen, Why would we allow those with this condition to dictate what is best for this country. That akin to asking a homeless person for advice on running an international corporation. Only makes sense to those lacking the aforementioned brain.
How does anyones life improve by selecting an official language or religion for that matter. Nothing changes except the level of annimosity that controls our rhetoric, increases. This benefits no one except those incapable of rational thought and action. The same people who feel it is their right to force others to learn a language, refuse to allow our schools to provide a better nutritional education to their children. It's simply about control. Dictating as manditory that which harms others, is not a right that anyone including the right has, regardless of what god you pray to. This is true no matter how much the right likes to claim otherwise.
the culture of the pretty girls has always been impossible to understand - it is either way too complex or possibly way too simple - even pretty girls don't understand its rules
That is very true - maybe not how we want to think of oursevles, but true nonetheless...
The reality is we have to live with people from many different cultures. All cultures are in fact the result of the mixing of cultures throughout history.
Most countries in the world have more than one culture living within their borders - it's a fact of life and we have to live with it.
Looking at the history of the US it is a history of multiculturalism at work. Trying to stop that is like trying to plug a hole in a dam wall with a piece of straw - it ain't gonna work.
Every culture can be enriched through contact with other cultures. The language we write in here is the product of that - many different languages in interaction produced what we now call English. Who knows what will come of the continuing interaction between cultures - something exciting and creativfe, I'm sure.
I'm excited to be part of the continuing evolution of culture.
To say multiculturalism is not working is actually saying that you want to hold onto a fiction - a static culture. There is also a racist element in saying that. The implication is that the "other" culture is of lesser value than "my" culture, and that is frankly nonsense.
Trying to keep a culture static has never and will never work - we humans are too creative and inventive!
Tony, the reality here in America seems to be that the majority would feel a whole lot better if we just forced everyone they dont like out of the country. They have no interest, or ability to, deal with those who differ in any way. Rather than make an attempt to learn something themselves, they simply try to force their narrowminded views onto the rest of us.
I would have to agree that multiculturalism is indeed a failure here in the US. We're supposed to be this great melting pot sharing a common American culture but that's not the reality we live in.
We live in a reality where we have African Americans, Irish Americans, Italian Americans, Native Americans; where we have southerners and Yankees, East Coast and West Coast, Blue-blooded and Red-blooded Americans. We live in a reality where labels identify us not our culture.
Multiculturalism in Canada failed miserably - everybody moves around in his own community and knows nothing about the rest.
There isn't a thing in the world wrong with multiculturalism as long as it's not a policy, which artificially creates and forces it into a society. The only thing a law or policy should do is protect ALL people's rights and privacy. As it happens on its own, it's usually difficult for people who once saw a community a certain way to accept the changes they see in the present. And it's usually based on fear.
Not all change is good. But not all is bad. Multiculturalism is not necessarily either good or bad. It happens, and when it does, if we want something good to come of it, it's up to us to start doing something to promote good as it happens. Communication, reducing fear and unfamiliarity all help.
You are spot on with this statement Dan, and your post is in fact most relevant to the true statements of our Prime Minister.
The problem in the UK is the POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION that last government attempted to create through artificial policies, in the mistaken belief that treating certain sub-cultures differently to the mainstream society in this country would some how make us all live happily ever after. The white British, actually forget that, not just White British, anybody who is third or even second generation British irrespective of skin colour or heritage, saw positive discrimination create an entirely different definition of inequality. Government departments setting targets for the employment of specific ethnic groups for a start, which saw people of one race given precedent over those of another for specific jobs (ignoring skills and abilities), is one major example.
I am at risk of sounding slightly centre right with this comment, but I believe that any immigrant into any country should be able to speak and write the primary language of the country that they are entering. If somebody wants to live in the UK then they should be able to speak and write English.
In the case of those seeking genuine political asylum, rather than those purely desiring a lifestyle change or more lucrative employment markets, they should be required to learn the language within a certain number of years and should not be issued with a British passport or whatever passport until they have passed tests which show that they are near-fluent aurally and in writing.
I genuinely believe that the only major barrier to integration is language, certainly in the majority of cases. I don't think that multicultarism has been a complete failure in most areas of the UK, only in the major cities where ethnic groups tend to form their own communities.
You know what really bugs me? The use of non-English shop signs, I don't want to feel like I am tens of thousands of miles away whilst in London. If somebody is willing to learn another cultures language then by all means let them experience the culture, if I learnt Spanish then I would hope that Spanish people would welcome me into their country, if I learnt Japanese then I would hope to make friends in Tokyo.
The British have effectively colonated Southern Spain and Northern France, there is a lot of tension there. A tiny proportion of the Brits that move to these countries make any attempt to learn the language, and that is the only problem in my opinion. If I were to move to Spain I would become semi-competant in the language before departing, continue to learn when I was there, and if I had children they would be attending Spanish schools to become fully biligual. I understand why the Spanish have tensions towards Brits, we do that shop sign thing in Benidorm and Costa Del Sol, pubs and bars everywhere with Union Jacks on them and with names such as "Churchills Bar".
In my opinion if you really want the opportunities that emigration could present, you should show your determination by learning the language. We even have state funded schools here which teach in other languages, I am not supportive of that.
Does that go for Welsh and Irish speakers too? What about Gaels and Cornish?
I lived in Norfolk for a number of years, conversation was totally impossible with some natives because though they spoke English, accent and dialect were totally impenetrable.
Ok, if somebody wants to live in England they should have to be willing to learm how to speak English; does that sound better?
As for speaking Welsh, I seem to recall the Welsh setting fire to the homes of English settlers in Welsh speaking areas so they appear to agree with my sentiments. You would be hard pressed to find any more than a handful of people who can speak Welsh but not English. The Cornish don't consider themselves to be English, so if that is the case then I don't consider them to be English either. The Scottish can look after themselves, at least they seem to think that they can; in Glasgow there will never be true integration.
As for Norfolk, well I was born and raised there (or should that be here), and I tend to find communication with any other English speaker easy enough.... but trust me when I say that I know precisely what you are talking about As for whether others understand me, I'm not sure, ask the Hubpages team... I think that they understood me, maybe not
And Ireland wasn't part of the UK the last time I checked, depending on which side you sit on that debate. I don't see any of that Island to be anything other than Ireland. In order to implement my audacious plans we would of course need to withdraw from the EU, which I am fully supportive of, with the only requirement for a work visa being fluency in English and an industrial need for a skill that you possess.
Multiculturalism is not, and has never been a state policy in the US. It is in Canada, and I personally like it just fine.. but that's another story. Suffice to say that I believe it is a policy that’s simply enables cultural freedom.
What you are reacting to is not the American government’s non-existent policy of 'multiculturalism', but the existence of people in your midst who do not speak the same language, or have the same cultural habits or traditions as you do.
This is what we call 'xenophobia'
Sadly, that cannot be resolved through the repeal of a law.
Greek one, perhaps it's the mentality of the average American that's the problem. Forced Multi-culturism would work about as well as religious freedom has here. Forcing most in this country to give up long held bigotry and hate is seen as a personal attack by too many. No one is the equal to many in their own mind and these lesser humans need to be controlled and contained.
You know my feelings on the joke education in this country has become and this is simply another example of it in action. People are to stupid to see how ignorant they actually are. They also lack the skills to learn the truth about anything. Too easy to remain blissfully ignorant and superior.
Right! People are too stupid that's why we need government! Now its not in the people's best interest to have stupid people voting so from now on the government will vote for you because we know what's best! Lol
It seems to me too many posters here don't even know what multiculturalism is which explains why they favor it even though country after country that's had it as policy is declaring it a failure! I guess they're just stupid too right stump? They must be because they don't agree with you!
based on the fact that you were not aware that the US never has had a multicultural policy, it seems that you are accurate in your observation that many don't know what multiculturalism is
Lady I never mentioned the need to have our government voting once. I suppose you could be referring to my coment about the governments need to force stupid people to feed their children correctly. As MM mentioned, the schools recieve federal funds and with that comes restrictions and requirements. This is no different that what any organization requires when lending or giving money, That it be used in an approved manner.
This government was never meant to be controlled by the ignorant masses. Nothing good can come from that. Allowing the stupid to make stupid decisions that affect other is not a recipe for success, is it? It is however a mandate from the right.
I can see in Canada every culture just look at others and say
and gets back the same responce
And what do we know about each other, really? -Big, fat NOTHING. Even French-English relations are the same. We have Quebec, what do I know about them? I cannot even watch french programs and I'd love to - no subtitles ever!
I don't agree with that at all..
I was born and raised in Toronto, and I love going to little Italy, or one of the China towns here in Toronto. Caribana is a blast (see my Hub for Details), and so is taste of the Danforth (see my Hub for details)... which is an annual festival that celebrates 'Greektown' in Toronto, and is attended by a million people of all different nationalities Traveling to Quebec City, one of North America's oldest cities, is like a trip back to colonial France.
The diversity is exciting, and vibrant... and the cultural animosity amongst groups is limited.. because everyone has the freedom.
If I was still single, i would also point out that being surrounded by beautiful woman of all different nationalities is AMAZING (but i am married, so I won't mention that)
Caribana is a show and I am talking about everyday stupid boring life. If I cannot travel, can I at least watch TV with subtitles? Hey? Do they so much hate if everybody would learn some French that way? And tell me,mighty Greek, do they LIKE in Quebec City when you speak English not French?
I have 1 neghbour on the floor across from my apartment that is Indian and another is Philipino, they do not even say hello to me, just pretend i do not exist.
So? Would you think it worthy of comment if your neighbours were white Canadian and still didn't say hello and just pretended that you didn't exist?
"have 1 neghbour on the floor across from my apartment that is Indian and another is Philipino, they do not even say hello to me, just pretend i do not exist. "
Could be you are getting back the signals you are sending out....
What you are pointing out in the French - English / Quebec issue is official bilingualism, not multiculturalism.
In Canada, these two are totally different... one is a mandate to use two different languages, based on Canada's unique past and the reality of the use of both French and English. The other is simply an acceptance and celebration of the cultural richness that diversity and freedom offer.
I grew up happily in Toronto.. in schools that were ethnically diverse. That was my everyday reality. My best friend is Indian, and today I live comfortably in a predominately Portuguese community.
Based on my current weight, it is clear that I have celebrated the culinary offerings of a vast array of communities... (most of them having high fat content, evidently.)
Multiculturalism simply means people are allowed the freedom to be themselves without 'big brother' telling them to confirm and 'fit in'. If we were to put restraints on freedom of religion, wouldn't everybody be up in arms? So why should government or anyone else constrain me in this regard?
Multiculturalism is an inevitable process if your country is a receiving country (lots of immigrants).
Culture is shared, adapt - learned, and can be transferred, plus there is what we call dominant culture. The ability to create policies which accommodates all the people is dependent on the flexibility of the people who are in position to make laws. For easier life, migrants adapt to the prevailing culture. Plus you can create a blend culture from different culture - called emerging culture.
Even before the more recent stream of migrants arrived here, the US is already multicultural.
Ethnocentric people believe their culture is superior over other culture.
Multiculturalism is making provisions for different cultures to reside separately in a society as in having a muslim community in the USA subjected to their own set of laws consistent with the culture from which they came while westerners are subject to western laws. It's not about denying the rights of Muslims or any other culture from practicing traditions or speaking their language.
You are choosing to arbitrarily define 'multiculturalism' in a completely narrow and defined way.
GO - We are talking about something very different from LaLo. To you and me multiculturalism is about respecting other people. That's the definition - To quote answers.com
"A philosophy that recognizes ethnic diversity within a society and that encourages others to be enlightened by worthwhile contributions to society by those of diverse ethnic backgrounds."
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/multicultu … z1Dh7wXP2u
The rampant paranoia of some wingnuts is in the OP... "and reject any attempts to accept Sharua law!" To the lunatic fringe, Obama is a secret Muslim working a secret agenda to impose the strict code of Muslim law on all Americans. (Cue in music from Outer Limits...)
I have asked and asked for even ONE example of any Muslim community ANYWHERE in the US trying to incorporate Sharia (not Sharua) Law on non-Muslims. Naturally there isn't a case, but the hysteria of Beckle's clowns continues.
I don't think you are getting fully what you are talking about. Communities even the Chinatown are subject to the same laws locally. You don't make laws separate for them, they will be included in the laws but with major considerations and accommodations of what can be acceptable because they are not separate entity, they intermingle with other people in the same area. Yes, they have distinct cultural practices but it is subject to change because of influences from other culture in the area. In the process, some emerging culture developed.
and it is Sharia Law not sharua
Is Multiculturalism a failure? The only time "multiculturalism" can possibly fail would be at the suppression or oppression of equality among citizens.
Cagsil, you are sounding like a communist slogan, I am not buying this.
There is no multicultural society, we all just groups of people who do not know, do not care and do not understand each other and government's just trying to keep us in one heap under the same roof of laws and regulations. I guess, I just cannot explain this, sorry.
Well, I wasn't too shocked by you responding to my post. But, it figures.
So, you wasn't too shocked? Too bad! Till next time then
Hey Home Girl, I'm sure there will be a next time. What I meant by the fact that I "wasn't too shocked" by your response, is because I already know your view about "equality".
I guess, we cannot change the world but we should try. It's time for me to do some work and to go home.
I will shut up till Monday probably - too busy on weekends with work and domestic problems to go on Hubpages. Have a nice weekend,Cagsill,
and everybody who is reading this now. Cheers!
Is multiculturalism a failure? It all depends on what you think "multiculturalism" is. For some people, it's just a synonym for tolerance; accepting people with slightly different lifestyles or values within an overall framework of common principles (such as freedom, democracy, individual rights, etc).
For others, on both the left and the right, multiculturalism means the artificial and unnatural protection of every single odd custom and belief that happens to exist in their midst.
In some ways, of course "multiculturalism" has failed and is failing across much of Europe, because the Europeans have never had any idea what the hell they were doing. Given their heritage of racism, imperialism, genocide, radical nationalism and xenophobia, they have lost all perspective on this issue.
Accordingly, many Europeans are either too far right or too far left when it comes to diversity.
Whaao, hold your horses.... your from the UNITED STATES, do you have any idea of the external perspective of your country? We are talking about a country which still has widespread racial segregation. Have you even been to Europe? Central Europe is light years ahead of the US when it comes to this issue, racism is engrained into the American culture. In the eyes of an American the problems in Europe would and should be seen as a non-issue, you effectively still have hundreds of mini Palistines dotted around your landscape housing the Native Americans, whilst 60% of your prison population (the worlds largest prison population) is African American and 20% is Hispanic.
I would never consider the American model as one to follow, your country still has high levels of institutionalised racism; do you know anything about the history of your own country? And are you aware of the number of race hate groups which currently exist in America? It was only 50 years ago that you ended segregation in schools, there are still an entire generation of people in your country which was segregated from those of another colour... that is racism on a level NEVER seen in the UK.
"Central Europe is light years ahead of the US when it comes to this issue, racism is engrained into the American culture."
There is plenty of racism in the US, but your "holier than thou" position isn't accurate from what I've read and heard first hand in visits to UK, Germany, France and Spain.
Are you old enough to remember Enoch Powell?
From what I've read racism is growing in Europe and that muslims are ghettoized in many countries, especially France. There have been racist political candidates in several countries including the Netherlands and UK.
Sky News, a 24-hour-news channel partly owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp., held an interview with Dr Phill Edwards, the press officer of the British National Party (BNP) – a far-right political party. Though the BNP claims it is not racist, it is essentially opposed to all forms of immigration and several of its members have been taken to court charged with making comments which may incite racial hatred, which is a crime in the UK.
Over the weekend, German Chancellor Angela Merkel told a meeting of the youth wing of her Christian Democrat Union (CDU, kind of like the German Tories) party that multiculturalism had “failed, utterly failed” in Germany.
What this amounts to of course is a massive attack on the communities of immigrant descent in Germany, from the top of government.
“They live side by side with us. For a while we lied to ourselves that they won’t stay and they’ll go away one day. But that’s not the reality. To say we are happy about living side by side is wrong.”
Check out how much venom she injects into her voice for taking on “them”:
On June 21 2010, Police in London were attacked by racist youths wearing pink shirts during an anti-racist march. This had led to speculation that far-right political activists have begun to wear pink shirts as a coded method of identifying each other. Wikipedia.
Recent research indicates that there is much less Islamaphobia in Scotland than in England. Indeed, xenophobia in Scotland has decreased since devolution. By 2003, Scots of Pakistani ethnicity were over twice as likely to vote for the SNP as ‘majority Scots’ (defined as those who were not only born in Scotland, but are also non-Muslim and do not have English-born partners). Wikipedia
"This had led to speculation that far-right political activists have begun to wear pink shirts as a coded method of identifying each other."
So is being opposed to multiculturalism code that racists use to identify each other?
I was responding in kind.
"because the Europeans have never had any idea what the hell they were doing. Given their heritage of racism, imperialism, genocide, radical nationalism and xenophobia, they have lost all perspective on this issue.". Or are you agreeing with this statement?
I don't witness a great deal of this. Of course I am not old enough to remember Enoch Powell, but I am old enough to have read plenty about him. His Rivers of Blood speech was used as an example of racism for decades, but he was right, his speech was accurate.
Of course there have been racist political candidates in Europe, we have a multi-party system, anybody can stand if they can raise £25000. Give me £25000 and I will stand in the next general election as a prospective Minister of Parliament, that doesn't mean that I would win votes. The far right BNP fielded more than 300 candidates in May, the most ever, but they still only managed 563,743 votes (a very small gain) and didn't win a single seat. That is 1.89% of the total vote.
And despite BNP's claims, they are indeed racist, in fact there is a video of their leader giving a speech to KKK members in Kentucky or somewhere. There were a large number of BNP voters in the UK that admitted that they voted BNP only as a form of protest against a feeling of a lack of representation by the major parties.
Want to know how racism is being spawned in the UK?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiumuLS3 … re=related
Islamic extremism, effectively spawned itself from British and American bombs.I don't know enough about Merkel, but David Cameron was correct when he too stated recently that multi-culturism in the UK had failed; but I don't see any difficulties in the integration of anybody other than Muslims. I am not a racist, in fact I have muslim friends, but they have lost control of their own communities and consistently fail to condemn those with extreme views.
Muslim extremists present themselves at the return from a tour of duty of any British regiment with chants of "murderers" and "death to the british", they also welcome back our coffins in this manner. It is only natural that far right parties win votes as a result, and to be honest I am surprised that they only took 1.89%. Heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? Well, multiply their numbers by a thousand, and that is what you have living in the UK at the moment - the Islamic equivalent.
I see no failure to integrate africans, chinese, indians, europeans, russians, south americans. I only see a failure to integrate successfully with Muslims. Our troops are serving in the wrong country, we need to put an end to this once and for all. If we have to remove 10% of them from our country by force then so be it.
Yours, a Liberal Democrat voter.
Ralph, I have spent a lot of time in Europe - particularly France, and I have to agree you - racism is far from dead!!!! In many respects I would say the "Arab problem" in France is one of the worst I have ever experienced. There are second and third generation Arabs in France of North African descent who aren't considered "French." They will forever be known and thought of as North Africans even though many have never been outside of their own country, France. I researched and ultimately wrote a college paper on the subject. I spent months interviewing these people - became great friends with several, and the general feeling is "they don't want us in our own country." And the ethnic French feel the same way about them.
So yes, racism still exists in the U.S., but it has been marginalized to the nutty fringe. And is nothing akin to what I experienced first-hand in France and to a lesser degree what I observed in Germany with the Turks.
And I think the ability to assimilate into a culture is based largely on the color of your skin - Irish, Italians, Germans, Poles, etc. etc. easily blend in. Hispanics and darker-skinned people not so much...
DTR0005, it is probably the same in any country. In Canada you just have to put an immigrant skin on to feel it, and to move from a big town like Toronto to a small town south of it like 100 miles from it will be enough, and you'll get it - all of it.
How you "rob them from jobs", how this and that. They conveniently forget that their grandparents were immigrants too. That's just too rediculous even to mention. And thank goodness, I am white. No one called me "black b***" at least, I heard that towards a black girl from white girls - though I've been called "white trash"! And you know what? I am not particularly surprised. When people live in places where is no jobs and nothing to do and no perspective in anything - they do not need extra people from other countries. Just don't talk about multiculturalism and clap your hands. Everything is more complicated than that.
Ever had a black Prime Minister? We do.
I didn't say anything about America, sure it has problems. But when you look at the rising levels of racism and xenophobia in places like Italy, Switzerland, Germany, and others, you have to wonder what's going on. There are large communities of Gypsies/ Roma, and legal and illegal immigrants from Africa and Asia that are shut out of mainstream society across Europe.
But the much more salient influence in Europe is the left, not the right, because Europe is a basically center-left society. The far left has been pushing a clumsy and poorly planned version of "multiculturalism" in Europe for a long time, and unsurprisingly we see a reaction from the far right in recent years.
I can't see how this is necessary, but yes I have travelled to Europe many times and even lived in Europe for a short period. Have YOU ever been to America? Scratch that, I don't care if you've been to America. One doesn't have to travel to a place to learn about it and have an educated opinion of it.
RyanKett seems to have painted himself into a corner.
Yes, I met Ralph Deeds' son in the very liberal and multi-cultural San Francisco the week before last and then got married in Vegas. My girlfriend lived in New York for a year too, where amongst interesting people that I got to know were two far right homosexuals (how ironic) who believed in white supremacy and voted Republican.
I have painted myself into a corner, by trying to speak for Europe. I will speak for the UK from now on, hows that?
I couldn't care less about the colour of your prime ministers skin, does that make Americans sexist? Seeing as we have had a female prime minister? probably not.
Interested to know why you have just painted a picture of Europe as "centre-left", you know that our politics isn't all centralized right?
The UK, France and Germany are all now centre-Right, that is the three largest European economies. Italy is also centre-Right, I guess that it has been a while since you lived there.
My son has been known to deny the possibility that I'm his natural father!
Did I say the British were a racist people?
I meant center-left in terms of their overall ideological disposition. Of course there are "center-right" parties, but these are still largely influenced by traditional liberalism, social welfare, economic regulation, etc.
I am a bit surprised to hear this unnecessary snarkiness coming from you, Ryan. I always thought you were a pretty sharp and respectful guy.
I took offence to this:
"In some ways, of course "multiculturalism" has failed and is failing across much of Europe, because the Europeans have never had any idea what the hell they were doing. Given their heritage of racism, imperialism, genocide, radical nationalism and xenophobia, they have lost all perspective on this issue."
My point, which I have clearly failed to make (and this is my only point), is that racism is just as prevelant in the United States as it is in Europe; which is not particularly prevelant but still a real issue within our societies. I simply object to the idea that the Americans have set any sort of benchmark which the Europeans should seek to aspire to. Apologies if I was not clear, once again I have been percieved to attack America; if anything I was seeking to defend Europe against slightly unfair (but not entirely unfounded, maybe just exaggerated) perceptions from those across the pond.
Racism presents itself in very different forms in different places, there is very little support for Zionism in Europe for example; there are plenty of Zionists in America. Want to know the truth about racism in Europe? It has everything to do with money and jobs, the uneducated need somebody to blame when it all goes wrong, it has become fashionable to blame immigration on the lack of jobs.
The issue in the UK is very different from that in Europe, jobs play a small part, but the wider issue is the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. A war which was illegal and not supported by the wider public, a war which has driven sections of our large muslim population towards extremism, which is subsequently giving birth to white extremism too.
Well, thank you for clarifying. I didn't mean to suggest that America is the grand arbiter of tolerance, I was only discussing the European context. And yes, the continental context is different in a number of ways from the British.
My statement was a generalization about a continent of half a billion (I hope that was obvious). I do believe significant segments of European leadership and intellectual classes do not have meaningful perspective vis-a-vis culture, diversity and tolerance.
I believe this stems in large part from the fact that Europe is not an immigrant society like the US, and so immigration and its attendant issues such as assimilation are fundamentally unfamiliar, and there is no deep tradition in civil society or government to address them in a sustainable way. So Europe has often defaulted to a far-left route of excessive political correctness and cultural relativism.
In a laudable attempt to avoid the horrors of genocide and imperialism, modern Europe has often gone too far in the opposite direction. The resulting milquetoast "kumbaya" dynamic, its basic structural flaws, along with the real (but manageable) threat of Islamic extremism has clearly spawned new far-right ideas and values as many people try to reestablish an ethnic or national identity they can be proud of, and if that means stepping on a few black and brown toes, so be it.
"Want to know the truth about racism in Europe? It has everything to do with money and jobs, the uneducated need somebody to blame when it all goes wrong, it has become fashionable to blame immigration on the lack of jobs."
Sounds a lot like America
I'm glad that we could shake hands.
There is also the whole space issue, "there is no more room at the Inn" as they say, list the problems in America on a piece of paper and you have a long list of problems. Add lack of housing and land to that list and you have the list of problems which face many European countries.
I would hate to live in a non-culturally diverse country, but I do see where and how the tension has arisen. In the UK people are objecting to widescale immigration, it is important that those individuals are not outcast as racists; this is what we have seen in recent years. A desire to see tougher immigration laws and entry requirements does not constitute racism unless applied to a specific group, in my opinion and the opinion of many others.
The mainstream parties consistently failed to tackle this issue, for fear of being branded racist (in line with what you are saying in fact, even the centre right being a little too left with that issue); the rise in far right parties coincided with this. They prospered, easy votes, and as a result we are now seeing a government which promises to be tough on immigration.
Immigration controls and racism are too things which can and should exist as two entirely seperate entities, and that is a cause of tension, it has almost become a taboo subject. The reality is that immigration controls will benefit every single British citizen, whether they are white, black, pink, purple or blue; Christian, muslim, hindu, sikh or athiest. It is about the economic prosperity and quality of living of every single British citizen.
I am hopeful that the new government will succeed in changing our systems for the better, and that as a result the far right will dwindle into obscurity again. I abhore the far right, but sympathise with some of there voters. That may not make sense to you, but some of the working classes simply didn't feel represented and perhaps lacked a bit of knowledge about the history of the people that they were voting for.
I suppose that America has made progress, and that Europe is perhaps going backwards a little, I can certainly accept that... maybe we have met or will soon meet in the middle somewhere.
I agree that immigration can and should be controlled in a reasonable way. Unfortunately there are many here in the US on the far-left who will accept nothing short of an open border with Mexico, and brand anyone who disagrees with them as xenophobes or racists.
On the other side, there are real, bona fide xenophobes who are uncomfortable with people who speak different languages or have different religions living in their communities. They tend to be rural and small town folks, and evidently have never heard of New York City, Los Angeles or Chicago where cultural and religious diversity has always been the rule, not the exception.
As I see it, much of these issues come down to people's identity. A nation must have a single identity that more or less encompasses everybody. Whether that identity is ethnic, religious, cultural, philosophical, or a combination, it must be there. Otherwise the nation will not hold together--we see this every so often in Belgium.
The interesting thing is that European identity for centuries has been ethnic and culturally based. So when people from different ethnicities and cultures start moving into your town, things can get weird really quick. In the US, identity was largely ethnic and cultural as well for a long time, but the real underpinnings were philosophical--freedom, rule of law, individual rights, etc.
That has enabled the US to accommodate a massive amount of diversity while still being relatively stable and cohesive. In the coming decades estimates are that the majority of Americans will not be white (i.e. descended primarily from Europeans). This will be unprecedented in American history.
The fascinating thing to observe will be if America can continue on peacefully and stably, and cultivate a more solid American identity that can accommodate a diverse ethnic and religious landscape, or if the still-present subcultural identities (black, hispanic, white, etc) will come to the fore and Balkanize the country beyond repair.
I truly do not believe multi-culturism works. I think Robert Frost had the right idea when he said good fences good neighbors make.
I also think that people become enemies when they are forced to integrate.
One thing I learned is that forced integration is as bad as forced apartheid.
I think the singular most unfortunate thing in the whole business is that people are assumed superior or inferior as a result of different cultures. I think people need to be able to respect each others as equals and make allowances for cultural differences. And at the same time, I think people of different cultures need to understand that most people like to be with their own kind.
My understanding is that "multiculturalism" is the opposite of assimilation. The people who are critical of multiculturalism are the ones who want to declare English as the US national language, reduce immigration, and deport illegal aliens without giving them a pathway to citizenship.
@Ralph. Good Point. I hadn't thought of it that way. It's quite a broad statement to say that everybody who is critical of multiculturism also wants English as the US national language, to reduce immigration, and deport illegal aliens without giving them a path to citizenship.
I, for one, am not of that opinion at all. And if I'm not, then many others aren't either, because I'm not unique. That means, you might be more accurate to say that SOME people who are critical of multiculturism...
I'm not critical of anything by the way. What I'm saying is that I've lived many places and like draws like. Most people are not comfortable being with people who do not share their values. Also, when people have different habits, beliefs, and cultures, progress slows as it is continually stopped by objections from one group or another.
It is merely an observation.
Okay, I agree "some." Here are "some." What do you think of this from my morning paper today?
A group that helps Muslims quit their faith is getting impatient as it waits for a judge to decide whether it can advertise on Detroit-area buses.
Freedom Defense Initiative is asking federal Judge Denise Page Hood to get moving. It's been seven months since she heard arguments.
The group filed a free-speech lawsuit after the Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation, known as SMART, rejected its bus ad. The ad said, "Fatwa on your head? ... Leaving Islam? Got questions? Get answers!" The ad has run in other metro areas.
SMART marketing manager Beth Gibbons says the ad was rejected because it held a "group of persons up to scorn or ridicule."
The problem with having an opinion (and I have no time for opions) on a few sentences is that one cannot examine the inevitable mountain of data and facts that lie behind the statements. Without that background, I am loathe to even comment.
I'd be really curious to know who the group behind the advertising campaign is. Religioujs Christians who want to convert Muslims?
Pretty much confirms my point that people like to be with their own.
Of course, I don't know if that's the case. I need a lot more information because I can see what's really going on there.
My understanding of 'free speech' as written into the constitution was that the people of the day were not allowed to speak back to the kind and the powers of the day, nor were they allowed to have the religion of their choice. I don't believe that 'free speech' as ever meant to be utilized to possibly case ill feeling between communities.
There are many ways of doing things. One can achieve something through either war or diplomacy. There are probably a million ways that the bus ad could have been worded. The way it is would cause a lot of bad feelings.
I think, quite honestly, people should butt out of other people's business. If someone has an issue, the world is a big enough place today for him or her to find help - without strings attached.
Me Cuban... no peakenglish...
But then again... Spanish was the first European language spoken in North America. Was it not? Shouldn't that count?
A common language is desirable for peace. Conflict arises out of failure to communicate. I realize that they also arise out of privation, thirst for power and other things. But I could argue that those things arise from failure to communicate too, albeit rather in a circular arrangement that describes human nature.
Maps are and have been drawn on paper all these thousands of years for a reason. People congregate, resources diminish (or are horded), and new lines get drawn. The U.S. is still a successful experiment because our population density hasn’t reached the type of critical mass that the places on Earth that have been populated for tens of thousands of years have. Hopefully the ability to communicate via the Internet will bring people together. Watching Egypt has been interesting in this regard (same with the protests in Iran not so long ago). It’s like there is a press that is hard to silence. Not impossible, but hard. It’s getting harder for governments to be a-holes without consequences. So, maybe humanity has a chance to not destroy itself after all. I think religion is still horrifically dangerous, but maybe, just maybe, if information really spreads, we can finally kill the dogmatic approaches and just get that whittled down to the core questions themselves, which are far more interesting and much less dangerous than what some idiot has to say on Sunday or sing over the loudspeaker 5 times a day.
(Oh, and @ Ryankett... "little Palestines".... Really? I could really rip into that one, but I'm assuming you were just on an emotional roll there. I know you are more worldly than that.)
Cultural diversity is all to the good just as bio-diversity is for life on the planet. Places like NYC and Toronto feel liberating and dynamic because of how they exemplify multi-cultural tolerance. However we all need to ask the old buddhist question: What was your face before you were born? What is our common humanity and the basis for our intrinsic dignity. Equality before the law and human rights seems to me to be the context in which we can appreciate each other's differences. In school I am very careful to affirm both the value of diversity and mutual respect based upon common humanity IN ONE BREATH. Multiculturalism in schools can work both ways: it can undermine the coherence of the community by balkanizing it or it can enrich it depending on how those leaders of multiculturalism(teachers or "diversity coordinators") present and encourage particular ethnic/racial identities to celebrate themselves within the school. It is a fine and crucial balancing act.
Interesting how multi-culturalism works one way only. Not such a good deal for white people. Multi-culturalism means the supposed "haves" get knocked off the pedestal and the supposed "have-nots" get put up there because they deserve it by virtue of their supposed moral superiority in being part of the abused class.
I've taken black studies courses. Dissent is not an option in that world. For whites it is a one way journey to ultum mea culpa and for blacks it is a journey to anger. Period. No deviation is allowed.
Not every white man has abused anyone. But multi-culturalism makes no such distinction.
Thank God, people are beginning to awaken to the folly of this pathetic experiment in social engineering.
How about trying a new scheme like all men are created equal?
Immigrants come to a new country for a new life.
Invaders come to a new country to bring their old life to a new country.
I am so glad European leaders are beginning to speak up, now let's hope they'll act to stop the invasion and destruction of western civilization in Europe.
Let's hope our leaders in Washington will pay attention the the Senate report that concludes political correctness resulted in the deaths at Fort Hood. I would dearly love for our leaders to put a halt to the insidious destruction being wrought on our society by insane multi-culturalism which allows foreign radicals, enemies of the state, to operate in plain sight while we are obliged to cover our eyes and seal our lips like idiots.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/0 … oting.html
Any specific suggestions on what to do about it? Seems to me that crazy white Christians and paranoid schizophrenics have been causing more problems that other cultural groups. For example:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 … gan-mosque
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley … hooter.php
http://www.fox2now.com/ktvi-wichita-chu … 6454.story
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/ … 8738.shtml
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/president-oba … d=11589122
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/TheLaw/michiga … d=10228716
Yes, I think PM Cameron has some good specific ideas on that score. Let's hope Congress can take a look at this Senate report and come to some similar conclusions.
Are you pleased to see radical Muslims waving signs advocating the death of western civilization in Europe or the United States? Do you think western civilization should be destroyed and replaced with Islam? Do you agree with Bernadine Dohrn and all that Code Pink crowd that capitalism is the biggest enemy and should be destroyed?
Obviously no to all your questions. I'm still not sure what you would do about your concerns. And I'm not sure what Cameron's program is. I imagine the FBI has informants in every Mosque in the US.
In my mind the Tea Party is a bigger threat inside the US than Islam.
Here's one I missed above--the Hutaree boys in Michigan
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/TheLaw/michiga … d=10228716
I don't know how you can stand living in the United States, Ralph. It's so awful here with all the murderous conservatives and Christians. You must be very frightened especially on Sundays when they get together to plan the destruction of America.
Well, sometimes I wonder about the wisdom of expressing my opinion on controversial issues using my real name. Not long ago I received a couple of calls from an unlisted number in a small town in Kansas which made me wonder whether it was a disgruntled Glenn Beck fan.
Ralph, I know what you mean. I post regularly to my local paper's opinion column and I recieve threatening phone calls from the fine upstanding christians in my community. The problem is that I am a junior and my father's phone is listed, not mine. The fact that they are threatening the wrong person doesn't matter to the christians on the right. Expressing their level of ignorance and lack of common sense is what matters most.
You and Ralphy better dig bomb shelters and start wearing burkhas to hide your identity and more closely relate to those with whom you are sympatico.
And stay far away from churches.
"Expressing their level of ignorance and lack of common sense is what matters most." Stump Parish said (rather well).
And right on cue, we have an example.
Ahh. . You were hyperbolizing about the dire danger you face from little old ladies in the Tea Party then?
http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/ … ois-video/
Be sure to watch the horrifying videos of old ladies scaring decent folks who are just trying to fundamentally transform this country. http://images.zaazu.com/img/omg-omg-oh- … -large.gif
Is Obama in charge of day to day policing too!
I'm surprised he has time to do anything else!
Two points - First there is going to be security at any event where the POTUS is going to speak. That a couple of seniors got their picture taken with police in the background does not indicate that the police were there BECAUSE of the senior. File that under 'lack of common sense' which SP mentioned.
Second - those 'little old ladies' might turn dangerous when they find out that tea party leadership wants to deprive them of their social security and medicare, the two most popular socialistic programs in the USA.
multiculturism - (first time I've actually heard that word!) is a fact of life, not something we can say fails or succeeds - it just is! the way you accept or don't accept other cultures in you world is your own personal problem, not something that everyone else can do anything about. If you don't accept diversity, and can't enjoy others for who they are, and if you see racial differences before you see PEOPLE, then it is your own failure. Perhaps a way to cure yourself of this failure would be to look through the eyes of the child that lives in you, untrained to see difference as something bad, and then you can appreciate what the world really is, instead of putting a personal judgement on others
Multiculturalism is a dynamic,long and it is a cyclical process. Success of living harmoniously with people who have diverse culture depends on the people in the receiving area if they are open to other culture and the capacity of the immigrants for example to assimilate/adapt to change in the culture. One tangible measure of success of multiculturalism is the policies that are created to accommodate other people' culture.
The intermingling of cultures create a new emerging culture. Sometimes old ways are hard to break, it takes generation for it to be changed. Younger people who migrate with their parents have more chances of assimilation. There are stereotypes too of group of people - Italian American, Asian American etc..
Racism, prejudice, bias are part of society and it is worst in some areas.
lady, I see where you got the little rant about Obama smoking, it's the latest line of crap being spread by the right and the Faux News network. As a matter of fact, most of the garbage you spread comes straight from Faux News. Watching Faux News has been proven to make people dumber than they already are and this is of course, another right that the right fights for. The right to be a complete idiot is what is your most important right to you isn't it?
There will always be people, groups who despise or want to dominate another that is different from them. That is nature and animalistic. It could be a full room of Chinese or Caucasians and some would find a problem with another to separate that person(s) from the pack such as blonde hair, black hair, religion, overweight, red hair, tans easily, does not tan, political party,. It all plays a part unfortunately.
"There will always be people, groups who despise or want to dominate another... " - in that case let's not talk about "happy multuculturalism" in ANY COUNTRY. I am the most multicultural. My mom and dad were from absolutely different cultures by origin. I lived in one country(Latvia), spoke another's language(Russian), embraced English culture fully and have deep affection to it. I do not want to be called "white trash", I do not deserve that.
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