http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/03/ … class.html
It should be obvious to everyone now that the left is intent on destroying the middles class. Worse they do this while claiming their policies are to protect you! Well that kind of protection I don't need!
Wrong. Both parties were involved. I write hubs on this continually. In fact, the Republicans are against the consumer protection and they want less regulation so the banksters can blow another housing bubble even faster than the Demcrats. But both parties were totally involved. Major players were:
Gramm and Rubin, who lead the charge to repeal Glass-Steagall, Clinton, Bush, McCain (as Gramm's mentor having been in the S and L crisis up to his eyeballs), Greenspan, Geithner, Paulson, Gramm's wife, who got derivatives labeled not gambling,
When the unions were destroyed, and politicians who ran for the left could not longer obtain donations from the unions, politicians on the left began to take their money from the corporate lobby..
Corporations are destroying the middle class, and most of the middle class are letting them because they're living in debt and still managing...
Lol! Ridiculous! These are the same corporations that employ us pay our wages and benefits and rely on our labor for their profit! Yes they want to destroy us... makes perfect sense! Lol
Those corporations pay most people a rate that is not livable. They abuse staff, work them to death. The only people that earn livable wages are near the top. If you honestly believe otherwise, then you haven't looked into this very deeply. This is an international trend by the way and it is why the wealth has risen to the top.
It has nothing to do with people at the top being more intelligent, more talented, etc.
It has to do with underpaying labor more and more.
I don't know of a single person that's been worked to death! Wages are subject to market forces just like prices and are dependent on supply and demand. Real wages gave declined that is true but that has more to do with monetary policy than anything else. Yes the gap between corporate officers and workers has expanded but I wouldn't expect that to continue in this economic environment.
No, wages are not subject to market forces, they are down to the whim of corporate management who see wage control as yet another tool.
Why on earth do you imagine that the wage gap won't continue to get larger in this economic environment, if any thing it will speed up the widening!
If business actually could determine wages why would they pay you anything? Why not just offer you food for your labor.. just enough calories to sustain you? The notion that business just decides what they're willing to pay and will pay no more is just ridiculous! People in China get a new job every week because they are offered more. Where there is demand for labor wages rise even if the corporations would rather they didn't.
I think the gap wont widen because profits will be under pressure. It will be harder to justify increases to the boards if sales and profits are declining. I think we're headed into a double dip recession.
They don't pay you in food because it is illegal to, just another of the things to lay at the door of the trade unions, the abolition of payment by truck!
Do people in China really get a new job every week! I'm surprised that they ever get anything done, having to constantly retrain staff!
The pressure on profit will be eased by paying the workers less those allowing the gap to widen.
When any organisation holds the degree of power that corporations do, they can pretty much dictate what they want done.
So people either work for pennies or they starve. It's not much of a choice.
You cannot compare China to America. America now has the same wage structure as any third world country. Have you ever looked at the official figures for those UNDERemployed - not the unemployed?
There is high demand for labor in China and so there is a large turnover in the factories. People leave one job for another with a higher wage. The difference between China and the USA is the China economy is growing at double digits and in the USA it isn't growing much at all and maybe still shrinking. Low growth means low demand for labor means shrinking wages... in other words free market forces are at work. I don't get why you lefties can't see what is blantly obvious!
And who, exactly, was responsible for shipping these jobs out of the country, if not the corporations?
Incidentally, it's not that Chinese labor is cheaper than American labor. It is that the Chinese Yen, as a result of politics, is given a lower value, and the American currency is the reserve currency. If the currencies were equally weighted, you would find that the Chinese do better than their American counterparts.
Next, I resent your implication that I am a 'leftie'. I absolutely am not. The problem with having the kind of mind that can only put things into one of two boxes is that it cannot see the other million probabilities and possibilities.
All countries manipulate their currency... right now the USA is printing money like never before! Clearly we are trying to lower the value of our dollar to increase exports... remember Obama said he wants to double exports in 5 years how did you think he could do that?
Corporations are leaving America because they must in order to compete in a global market place. Consider America has the 2nd highest corporate taxes in the world... we have a high standard of living which makes our wages higher and a myriad of regulations of all kinds that add costs to making anything.
Sorry if being a leftie offends you...anyone left of me is a lefty! Lol
Lady-love, we come from such different places that it would take forever to find any middle ground for us.
Corporations do NOT have to compete in the global market place. The perception that corporations have to grow and have bigger and bigger profits every year is unsustainable.
Anyway, nice talking to you. Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I was out all day.
Which means basically everybody....well maybe not Hitler, but pretty much every one else.
You know LadyLove, it's pretty bad when you cannot see the damage done by your own side, much less beyond yourself.
The War on the Middle Class? Is just distortion to keep citizens divided. And, you would know that, if you didn't have an agenda that matched your own political affiliations.
You are just as guilty as your partners in crime, known as the republicans or the right, should I say. And, the scary thought is that YOU actually enjoy making a public spectacle of yourself.
Just utterly ridiculous.
There is a war on the middle class, but unfortunately, the main players were banksters. Or they were wanna be banksters, like Phil Gramm, who got a cushy job with UBS, the Swiss bank that recruited Americans not to pay taxes. He got that job and was a friend of bubble blowing and the attack on mainstreet by ponzi loans originating with Basel 2, and off balance sheet banking in 1998. I have even written an ebook about it.
If there is a war on the middle class and it's coming from the bankers, which are the wealthy class, then it would be completely stupid on their part.
Destroying the middle class and making them part of the poverty class or of the homeless class would be completely ignorant.
I get that you love to jump on the bankers, but please try to keep it rational and/or at least sane.
Read my hubs. You don't get it. There was a huge transfer of wealth with the ponzi housing bubble to the top 1 percent. A massive transfer, in fact.
They thought mainstreet would bounce back quicker, but they were only concerned about our new mercantilism, that of the financial class.
They had visions,and still do, of controlling finance and credit throughout the world, even preying on the Chinese populace if they can.
The 4 biggest banks are bigger now than before the bubble, in addition to the incredible jump in wealth of the top 1 percent.
I get it and don't actually need to read your hubs.
However, the bankers can be subverted by helping the people, not just open their eyes, but be more responsible in their own actions. Thus, increasing their education and awareness of said problems.
Presently, you're attempting to use "scare" tactics, which is no different than the politicians or bankers. Thus, YOU are not different, but are same.
Lol! At least Somone besides me can see through his crusade! What did you want the failed banks to do @bgamall, refuse the government money... or should I say tax payers money the government was giving away? Government policies led to the banks making bad loans.
Riiiiiight, it was gvt standing there telling the banks to scam people into sub-prime loans, even though they rightfully qualified for prime.
Hey--a cop wasn't standing there telling me not to steal....so it's the cop's fault I stole!!
Actually, there was cops(regulators) who turned a blind eye, so the money could be taken.
The banks had people in government making sure they got the money. You have been put to sleep by Faux News.
No matter, you will see them screwing other borrowers in short order, as soon as they can figure out how to finish stealing property they don't even own the notes to in foreclosuregate.
No Cagsil, you don't get it. The banks deliberately pulled their underwriters because they just needed warm bodies, since they could take their loans and pawn them off as AAA when they weren't. They should be prosecuted under RICO laws which exist to prosecute fraud as a business model.
Pulling underwriters, who had always been responsible to banks not wanting people to get too much house, was irresponsible and the banks should have been allowed to fail.
In the 13th century, if banks failed, governments would hang the banksters. Now, they get bigger bonuses. There is something wrong with that picture, Cagsil.
I do get it, but it is you who do not get me, but then again, that's okay. It's nothing I'm not used to by now.
Actually I do get you. You think the 24 percent of the subprime loans made by ACORN/CRA caused the bubble. It jumpstarted the bubble, but by itself would not have sustained the bubble. The 76 percent of subprime and all the prime and jumbo and alt a and option arms were made by the private lenders, largely unregulated. The Fed, Geithner, who was Pres of the NY Fed, refused to regulate.
But that was according to the plan of Basel 2 in 1998, to introduce models that were not real. When Enron and Worldcom failed based upon those off balance sheet models, the banksters ignored that and implimented private mbs in late 2003, corresponding to Geithner's presidency of the most powerful private Fed bank, the NY Fed.
Cags, and you obviously don't read the figures that have been coming out INTERNATIONALLY for every country in the world for the past ten years.
The Republicans will not protect Americans from predatory bankers, and will allow them more freedom to scam than the Dems going forward.
Just one error though on your part. Each phrase! Should have! An exclamation! At the end!
Must Eat Obama brains.....!!
At first I thought that was a picture of a Troll. Ha!
There was a tape of Enron employees' laughing with each other about how they scammed poor seniors out of their money....
I don't think these banksters give a rat's ass about what they are doing. Other wise, they wouldn't need regulating to get them to behave like decent human beings.
Those who are decent are complicit by keeping silent.
"Those who are decent are complicit by keeping silent."
This has puzzled me for a while now. Why are so many remaining silent. I met a CPA when I first arrived in America. She had worked for about 10 major corporations in the USA. She said that every single one of them scammed people and that they had creative numbers in their accounting. She was often asked to be complicit in it and that is why she resigned...
this left side right side stuff is bs! The government as a whole has detroyed the middle class. Its a sad thing that will huant this country for years to come! I'm on the f.u. side how about that!!!
I understand your anger and you're right both sides are guilty but now is the time to engage! You are not alone! We are going to return America to constitutional goverance and eliminate all those that stand in the way regardless of party! Do not cave in to the socialist democrats and their lies! They seek to divide us and rule over us!
Speaking of banks, wonder how they convinced the government to hand them every last dime the government had control of in a "bailout" as if the banks had no money... For the good of the people? To give our tax money to banks? WOW.. There's a off the wall notion... Americans sure do think a lot huh?
You realize that bankers and politicians come from the same parts of society, right? That wealthy minority all know each other pretty well.
Hey Vector, I would suggest you learn something with regards to money.
It doesn't matter the party. The controlling element are the banksters.
And, IMO--Gramm was a big sleaze unmatched until now....Mike Pence!
Phil Gramm is a disgusting and vile individual. He knows what he did. He knows that mainstreet was screwed and told them to quit whining before the crash of the money markets in Sept, 2008.
http://fuckconservatives.wordpress.com/ … t-title-x/
Mike Pence lies about title X.
He lies about a lot actually...
Geee- I wonder if it might have anything to do with the fact that companies left America FOR China! SO they could have cheaper labor, and lax safety standards?
Race to the bottom lady, with only the ones at the top winning.
Suppose that's true what can be done? China is winning the competition for business but we don't have to let that happen! America has something to offer, freedom! If we can lower the costs of going business in America we can win business back. We can't lower wages and if we raise taxes we'll continue to chase business away. All that's left is government! We have too much of it and it costs too much... that's where we can cut and save this country.
We would have freedom but the top elites are stealing the dream. You don't spend any time trying to speak out about the biggest thiefs. They are going to impoverish America's mainstream because they are only worried about saving their own hides by offering credit to Americans who are underpaid and overcharged.
Did you know, Lady, that a trader said that Americans pay an additional 1.50 per gallon for gas just because of sheer speculation? It is churn, an easy money churn that is similar to the churn they set up with borrowers, only they trade back and forth with themselves, driving the price of oil up. Then those who take delivery of the oil pay to much and have to charge too much.
"-America has something to offer, freedom!"
Everything is relative... Yes, compared to China, America does have freedom. Compared to Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Europe, the UK, etc. um, really????
Well yes... though the left is doing everything possible to change that. Take the ACLU the American Civil Liberties Union... the founder of that leftist organization is an avowed communist, their mission is to destroy the constitution and they have made strides in that direction.
@lady-love, coming from outside America, I find it very difficult to put labels of left and right on everything. There are many organisations that might be to the left or right of a particular position. That doesn't mean that they are left or right. That might mean that they are dead center. Where one is standing often defines the view.
Personally, I find that extremes on both sides are destroying the country. But worse, big business is playing two sides against the middle.
Sometimes, one needs to be outside a situation in order to see it.
Someone that professes their goal is to eliminate the state, private property and usher in communism is obviously leftist wouldn't you say?
Okay Lady, we are on completely different pages. Who, exactly, wants to eliminate the state, private property and usher in communism? Who on earth are you talking about?
That was from the founder of the ACLU. This is the desire of the left in America.
I just looked that up. The guy is dead, isn't he? Organisations change. I truly doubt that that is the agenda of the organisation.
Good night. I'm off to catch some sleep.
Sure organizations can change but that's not the case for the ACLU. Just look at the cases they are involved in how they are redefining the constitution using the courts and liberal activist judges to advance their agenda.
@ladyloave. I've just spent quite a while reading through their website. I guess that brings me to a contention I made a while ago.
This is NOT a free country.
If you seriously believe that those things are communistic, then you have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of what it means to live in a free country.
I would like to share something with you.
About a month ago, I sent a video on youtube to a conservative friend. It was Cameron, the British prime minister giving a speech. My friend turned to me and said, "In the US, he would be regarded as a Democrat."
That is the extreme difference between the rest of the world and the US. What you regard as communism here is the normal freedom that most of us grew up with.
I see absolutely nothing on any of the ACLUS pages that makes me think it's extreme or communistic or even outside the American constitution.
I suspect that, like 70% of your fellow Americans, you have absolutely no idea what the constitution says.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … untry.html
As far as I can see, they most definitely are upholding the constitution.
So, on the off chance that all the articles that I read on their site were the exception, can you please give me an example of one instance where they redefine the constitution, and then give me the exact wording of the constitution.
I think you might find that that's not going to be an easy task.
If I am incorrect, I will apologize.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with our constitution. This country was largely established out of a desire for religious freedom. The first amendment to our constitution states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
One of the tenents of communism is to eliminate religion. The ACLU has done much to advance this tenent. Below is their latest:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/03/ … berty.html
Most forms of communism certainly prefer an atheist state, that's true, and Marx himself had a rather low opinion of religion. However, it is possible (if rare) to be a communist and religious at the same time. Here is just one example:
Communism has also co-existed with Islam, Buddhism, and other religions.
@ladylove. And that's the problem.
You are reading someone else's opinion - and in addition, that someone else is playing fast and loose with the facts.
What I'm saying here is go find out for yourself.
Go to the ACLU page and read it. Then go to the constitution and read it.
I'm a writer. I've trained as a journalist. I have a qualification as a journalist. I know how to slant things, and I recognize when writing is slanted. That piece of writing is nothing more than propaganda.
In order for you to know the truth, you need to go to the ACLU page, read it. Then you need to go to the constitution and read it.
Then you need to present me with the evidence. That is the only evidence I can accept.
The rest is equivalent to hearsay.
I think the reason 70% of Americans don't know what the constitution says is precisely because you keep allowing corporations, politicians, the media to tell you what it says, and so they can lie to you.
I don't think we can proceed along this thread anymore. And I must be on my way for the day.
Have a good day.
First off I quoted the constitution. I have it on my phone so I'm quite familiar with it. I realize the piece I cited is an opinion piece but that does not mean it doesn't contain any facts. Quoting the consent decree is simply a fact. One can read that and decide is the ACLU protecting freedom and the constitution or attempting to reinterpret it to advance their agenda? You've formed your opinion and I have formed mine so we will continue to be at odds over this issue.
Well well well...
Who'd a think it?:
"According to documents first reported by ThinkProgress, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce began working with three military contractors — Berico, HB Gary, and Palantir — to come up with a proposal to discredit groups like ThinkProgress, the SEIU, StopTheChamber.com, MoveOn.org, and others. The tactics proposed included spying on families, using malware computer viruses to steal private information, using fake documents to embarrass liberals, and creating fake identities to infiltrate their targets."
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/24/ric … g-scandal/
*wonders why lady_love is posting on the forums (which doesn't pay) instead of writing hubs (which does pay).*
Just in case someone is interested in a well researched piece with the evidence to back up it's claims.
From the University of California, Santa Cruz:
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameri … ealth.html
It's quite long and contains a lot of data! I'm not sure what your point is though. Most of that stuff is intuitive. If you're rich you're going to have more power and influence.
Two points- one it shows where true power lies.
If there is a war on the middle classes it emanates from the very rich. The middle classes have seen their income stagnate over the last thirty years. Everyone unfortunate enough to lie below this group has seen a decline in income.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1a8a5cb2-9ab2 … ab49a.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/09/busin … .html?_r=1
It is a state of affairs that dates pretty much from the Reagen era and the massive tax cuts for the very rich that followed shortly afterwards.
The second point is: DATA. Reliable data is a wonderful thing.
If you want to engage in meaningful debate why not get your quotes from reputable sources- not crummy blogs?
What is wrong with the Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal, if you are inclined to the right? They check their facts before they slant them to their cause- which is acceptable to everyone. The University of Chicago make the right wing case most forcefully, why not start looking at what they produce?
It is possible to be a right-winger without being either a dupe or a peddler of falsehoods.
From your own source wealth and power have been consistent between the groups discussed within 3% or so. From your own source taxes are progressive the rich pay more. Frankly I'm not sure I trust their numbers. If I look at my own situation and add up all the taxes I pay it would equal about half of what I earn not 20% as that piece suggests. I would also take exception that a tiny few pay capital gains... almost everyone with a job and a 401k or a retirement is exposed to that tax. Can the rich afford to pay more? Sure! Should they? Maybe that depends on what is being done with the money. This is where we separate the liberals from conservatives! Liberals want government to play a bigger role in our lives. They want a bureacracy to adminster "fairness", a slippery slope if ever there was one!
I might also point out that your source indicated power also leads to wealth and this is confirmed in studies where people in power have a feeling if entitlement and rules or laws don't apply to them. These facts support the notion that smaller government is less corrupt just by virtue of being smaller. Smaller government also means less of a tax burden on EVERYBODY. Smaller government also means greater freedom less regulation and less bureacracy. Quite frankly I don't see how anyone can argue logically for the opposite.
LOL,LOL,LOL rofl The RICH are intent on destroying the middle class. Why? THEY think they will achieve immortality through medical science and feel the dwindling resources should NOT be wasted on us middle class 'slugs.' THEY feel they are the only ones who deserve anything, by virtue of being nothing more than wealthy.
Question: Are you misinformed, paid by someone to write this 'stuff' or just plain angry a the world?
and the war started long before the current administration! If you haven't read this article, it's worth reading. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne … l-20110216
"This institutional reality has absolutely nothing to do with politics or ideology — it takes place no matter who's in office or which party's in power."
That's a great article, I really liked it. I think if I look down at my arms and legs, I'll see a Left and a Right. NOT to be found anymore in D.C. though. Only Elites (rich) on one side trying to sway us, and Elites (rich) pushing back at the other elites, from the other side, The tug of war is between one rich side and another rich side, simply trying to give us an illusion of Left and Right. ALL, or Both sides, that is, care for no one in America or the world. People don't get it and maybe never will.
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