The US Flag Code, section 176, subsection K says:
The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. [emphasis mine]
With me so far? Right. So, in this article in the Christian Science Monitor, Omid Safi, professor of Islamic Studies at UNC, says, “People often ask, ‘if it’s OK for Muslims to burn the Quran, then why isn’t it OK for the US military to do it?’...That’s where the question of symbolism is important.” According to the article, if a Koran must be destroyed for some reason, "Burning the Quran... is... an accepted practice."
Right, so according to the people who revere the US flag, the preferred way of destroying a worn flag is to burn it. But boy do they get upset when some idiot burns a flag to make a political point.
And according to the people who revere the Koran, one acceptable way of destroying a worn Koran is to burn is. But boy do they get upset when some idiot burns a Koran to make a political point.
So all you folks who get upset when someone in some faraway country burns a US flag? That's probably pretty close to how Muslims feel when someone over here burns the Koran.
We're really not all that different after all.
I think the difference is huge, Americans don't go on killing sprees when our flag is burned.
Americans, just like the UK, have gone on killing sprees anyway. No flag or holy book required.
You are right. America does not need its flag to be burned to go on killing spree. The world knows that.
When I was a tiny tot, I wanted to go to Sunday school. I was taught that the worship of any sort of article was the act of using a material symbol as the reflection of the real thing. In other words, by making the flag a representative of the US, it is converting the flag into an idol.
"They shalt have no other God before me"
No idol worship permitted.
It's a piece of cloth.
And even if we're not that different in this issue, we are indeed different Nations. Americans should never be forced to honor some other Nation's flag at the expense of dishonoring our own.
"Intent matters." Of course it does.
"And even if we're not that different in this issue, we are indeed different Nations."
Sure, but we're all people in the final analysis.
"Americans should never be forced to honor some other Nation's flag at the expense of dishonoring our own."
Um....what? I don't think anyone has ever suggested this?
It just shouldn't have been done. What an idiotic thing to do. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that burning their bible was going to really tick them off. That's just ag'ing on fight. Stupidity should not be considered the American miltiaries strong suit. Its not a virtue the last time I checked, so...
If you go looking for trouble you're going to find it. Now I thought the military was suppose to over there as a peace keeping mission..., so what happen to that?
Except Americans don't gather in mass quantities in the streets chanting death to Islam.
I agree Jeff, I don;t want to reach the point where is symbol is more important than lives. The President acted responsibly to not let our pride and ego get in the way of protection of our troops on foreigh shores and in harms way. That applies to the Koran as well as 'old glory'
As a student of Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism, I can tell you it is the same with the written Dharma.
If you have to destroy any article with the Dharma on it, the correct method is to burn it outdoors so that the words of the Dharma are spread to others.
i think you are correct, in each case there is a proper time, and way to destroy the Flag and the Islamic holy book. Those that do not follow the "approved method". So i dont think its beyond the norm for a constituant group to not like the way something dear or revered is treated. I'd get pissed if someone torched my Leaf Jersey and my pal would freak if you even touch his yankee hat signed by Mattingly and Jeter. Those are just sport memoribilia....
although some sports team fans are closer to a religeous cult than others good question sr. Jeff.
The American flag represents freedom, the Koran represents oppression and intolerance. Americans are way more willing to tolerate Muslims or any religion, while Islam seeks dominance. The ideologies of each symbol oppose each other, THAT is why both sides get angry. This does not mean we have something to unify over. When Muslims stand up for peace, then they are in agreement with Americans, not the other way around.
"The American flag represents freedom"
To you? Of course it does. But does it represent freedom to, say, the Cherokee nations, forcibly removed from their ancestral homeland in the Southeast, where they had farms and businesses, and marched at gunpoint halfway across the continent to Oklahoma?
Or more recently, did it represent freedom to the people of Iran when the US backed the coup-d'etat that overthrew the democratically elected president Mohammed Mossadegh, and placed the Shah at the head of a repressive totalitarian regime?
You've missed the point completely.
We ALL know that Afghani's, Iraqis, Pakistanis, and the rest of "the brownies" salute the air right before our bombs kill their children! They then text message Americans saying "thanks for the freedom!"
They love the death that our freedom drops upon them!
Be nice to America, or we'll bring democracy to your country.
Calling people "brownies" takes all force out of your argument.
Well, if it isn't true, just make it up! This is the first time I have ever heard the term, "brownies," right here on this thread from the mouth - er, fingers of a liberal you quoted.
Oh yes, don't forget our late night get together on Saturday - I should have that cross ready to go as long as you remember to bring the gas and matches! EVERYONE will be there.
You think I'm a liberal!!!
OH man! That's classic!
I'm anti-war!! I can't be a liberal! There isn't a single out-spoken anti-war liberal out there anymore! Obama shut them all up! Check out the "anti-war" forums that are on HubPages, they probably were all started by me!
I'm anti-war! I can't even be a conservative! They started all these wars and want to invade Iran because of a bomb they don't have!
Oooohhhh MAN! You think I'm a liberal!!!
It's funny, because it doesn't.
In fact, it only enhances it.
My federal government hates brown people.
Number of brown people killed by the US military since 9/11: hundreds of thousands, probably even millions.
Number of asians: Not even comparable
Number of Africans: Not comparable
Number of whities: probably a few thousand.
Number of canadians: Not comparable.
Oh please, these flags or religious books are not going to pay your taxes and bills. You can live in any part of the world and these two things are not going to solve your financial problems.
Umm... right, but if we lowered our taxes and stopped killing brown people, our finances might get back in order!
"So all you folks who get upset when someone in some faraway country burns a US flag? That's probably pretty close to how Muslims feel when someone over here burns the Koran."
One slight difference...when somebody burns our flag, we don't riot and kill people like the Muslims do.
No? So all those dead Afghanistani kids are a lie!
They are not dead because of a burned flag.
Who knows, but it wasn't because of a burned flag. Why are thousands dead that were in the World Trade Center? Why have Muslims killed innocent people all over the world?
Why have Americans killed innocent people all over the world?
Do you remember how angry you felt when those towers were destroyed? Imagine that but for over 5 decades. That's how the middle-east feels about America.
So? Does that give them the right to kill innocent people? Its not really working out for them if you haven't noticed. Keep committing terrorist acts and we will keep killing the bad guys and unfortunately a few innocents who the terrorists put in harms way.
Does that give you the right to kill innocent people?
Iranian women and children oh, and Afghani women and children, oh, and Vietnamese women and children,oh and countless others who don't bow down to America.
With the exception of a few instances perpetrated by deranged individuals that never happens. We also punish our bad guys when they do commit atrocities, they are not celebrated as other combatants have been known to do. America has freed more people than they have ever harmed, too bad your country can make no such claim.
"With the exception of a few instances perpetrated by deranged individuals that never happens."
No innocent people die from US military actions, except at the hands of a few deranged individuals? Either you've either never heard of "collateral damage" or you're being deliberately obtuse.
"America has freed more people than they have ever harmed,"
I wonder how that would work out if we did a head count. How many people have been tortured and killed by the governments of our various client states over the years? And remember the forced 'civilization' of Native American kids? I'm sure they felt really free when they were taken from their families to be taught the ways of white people, and beaten for saying anything in their own language.
And while the UK's history isn't exactly squeaky clean either, the British Empire abolished slavery long before the US did, and they didn't have to fight a war against their pro-slavery people to get it done.
Who knows, but it wasn't because of a burned flag
Oh, well that's ok then. I it wasn't about a burnt flag then it is surely justified. Motivation for the killings is irrelevant, flags are important.
Yep, and all those Iraqi kids, they're a lie, too.
. America has freed more people than they have ever harmed, too bad your country can make no such claim.
Just like America, they could never make that claim. But unlike you RG47, there are some Brits who despite there political leanings are intelligent enough to see that the nationalist,patriotic argument is for fools. I hope one day, you will see this.
They are not equivalent symbols the flag is not the core of a religion, but a revered symbol. As far as roiting in the streets, not really a north american thing to do.
"As far as roiting in the streets, not really a north american thing to do."
Lots of these took place in North America.
wow I can see 3 in the past 10 year and 8 this century. Mardi gras riots? Ohio state university block party? San Bernardino Punk riots? I live 5 minntes from an Bernardino, I grew up there, and this is the first I have heard of it. Now try places in europe of the middle east, blody, attacking the police etc.
A good but imperfect analogy..burning the flag and burning the Quran. The Flag is a symbol and the Quran is a book with words in it that are central to a world religion. Neither ought to be burned in anger, but only in accordance with proper ceremonial disposal practices. However, burning the flag is protected by that pesky 1st Amendment. As for those who get exorcised by the burning of either -- they are likely looking for an excuse...but I digress
It is not Americans or Afghans that are killing each other, or Muslims and Christians, or the White and the Brownies. Its bigotry and short-sightedness that is killing the world.
This is the only thread that mentions that Korans was burnt at a US air base, and I've just read it on the news (no TV here, I come across news online by chance).
I am stunned at the ignorance and imcompetence of the US officer in charge, who ordered this, or who permitted this.
This is a serious insult to Muslims, and it has already resulted n 8 deaths with more to come for sure.
There is NO comparison between burning the US flag to burning the Koran.
This is one of, if the not THE most insulting thing to do to a Muslim. America, you should be ashamed for allowing this to happen, and take steps to make sure it never happens again.
I dunno if Izzy is a Muslim, but he eloquently expresses the level of outrage a Muslim must feel when a Koran is desecrated. Now compare it to the level of outrage a US citizen, especially a veteran, feels when someone burns a US flag.
If we want to be the good guys, we kinda also need to not be the bad guys, don't we?
He's a she LOL and an atheist to boot!
Having said that, you cannot compare the two (burning the US flag to burning the Koran).
You feel insulted when someone burns your national flag, but nothing to the insult Muslims feel when someone burns a Koran.
I'm not saying I agree, that is just how it is, and I thought everyone knew that. You would have thought the military would have known.
This is enough for them to declare war over, that is how serious it is.
"This is one of, if the not THE most insulting thing to do to a Muslim. America, you should be ashamed for allowing this to happen, and take steps to make sure it never happens again."
That very same military also burned a bunch of Bibles, with the full support of the left:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiap … es.burned/
Again, no comparison.
Christians simply do not hold the Bible in the same exalted position as Muslims do the Koran.
You don't have to agree with it; that is just how it is.
Edit: new in an hour ago http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24 … ghanistan/
"That very same military also burned a bunch of Bibles, [and the Right freaked out all over the place for no good reason.]"
There, fixed it for you.
See, when the US military has stuff it can't use (for whatever reason), the SOP is to burn it. Those Bibles you're talking about were mailed to the troops (without checking first!) by some church or other in the US.
Now, if you know anything about the middle-eastern perception of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, you know that lots of people there think that the US is waging some kind of crusade to wipe out Islam (and if you read some Americans' online rants, it's easy to see how they got that idea).
So what does this load of Pashtun-language Bibles do for the troops? Not a darn bit of good, since military regs prohibit proselytizing, and quite a bit of harm, since the Bibles' existence in Afghanistan provides 'evidence' that the US is out to convert Muslims to Christianity. Basically, that boneheaded church handed the troops a great big pain in the tuchis, making their jobs both more difficult and more dangerous.
It's like junk mail, but junk mail that the neighbors will be really upset about.
What do you do with your junk mail? I recycle mine. Most people throw it in the trash, and that's what the Army did with the junk mail that church sent them.
Of course, the Right got hold of the story and spun it as an anti-Christian-Obama-administration-war-on-Jesus thing, when in fact it's just a "dealing appropriately with a useless and dangerous inconvenience a bunch of well-meaning fools sent us" thing.
But you know how angry the American Right got about the troops burning those useless, liability-ridden Bibles they neither asked for nor wanted?
Yeah, now imagine that the Korans that recently got burned were Bibles.
Now do you get why Muslims are upset?
"Christians simply do not hold the Bible in the same exalted position as Muslims do the Koran."
No, Christians believe the Bible is the Living Word of God, but, unlike the fanatical Muslims the left loves to defend, we don't riot and kill people should a Bible be desecrated.
You are simply excusing their behavior again, like a good leftist.
Didn't you learn anything from this?
"Last year, at least 24 people died in protests across Afghanistan after a hardline US pastor burned a Koran in Florida."
This isn't about excusing fanatical rioters, or giving them excuses, this is deadly serious.
"You are simply excusing their behavior again...."
Nobody ever said rioting and killing were okay if it's because someone desecrated a holy book. We're just explaining that when you desecrate folks' holy book, it's going to make them angry.
There's a difference between a reason for doing something and an excuse for doing something.
A reason is simply "why you did it."
An excuse is "why it's okay that you did it."
Guys, this is why people hate us:
WE KILL THEM AND THEN BURN THEIR HOLY BOOKS
This is why 9/11 happened.
Wake the f**k up.
"That very same military also burned a bunch of Bibles, [and the Right freaked out all over the place for no good reason.]"
No, they simply pointed out that people died because Muslims killed them over one kook in America burning one Koran, while nothing happened when the military burned Bibles. The right did not 'freak out'. That's a false claim.
You on the left continue to excuse Muslims, no matter how outrageous their actions, but you never denounce them! You demand that Islam be respected, while accepting the fact that Muslims respect no religion other than their own, and eagerly kill non-believers whenever possible. Iran is about to kill a Christian as we speak, simply because he was once a Muslim.
I certainly do not agree with most of the things Muslim extremists get up to, but that does not detract from the fact that the US military have made a monumental mistake by burning the Koran - and they should have known better!
Are they looking for war? Are they wanting an excuse to bomb Islamic countries off the face of the Earth?
"...they should have known better!"
Yes, we should all know by now that Muslims are the most intolerant people on Earth, and will riot and kill over a simple cartoon, or a preacher burning a Koran!
When you use the term, "Muslim extremists", you are talking about the majority of Islam, because most Muslims are in fact, extremists when it comes to Islam, the extremist religion.
"The right did not 'freak out'. That's a false claim."
Here's my support for the claim:
"the enemies of religious liberty won't be satisfied until every Christian is silenced, and every chaplain booted from the military like I was, for the "crime" of worshiping in public. "
From Free Republic.com.
"In this country we have freedom of religion. Freedom of speech, and expression guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
Freedoms that Islamists are using against us in oder to advance the Islamization of America,--"
From the TIL Project
"This is another example of "Creeping Shari'ah","
"Islam is given special treatment and Muslims are treated with kid gloves, while no special treatment is given to Christians and other non-Muslim faiths....we either take a stand now, and insist that Muslims assimilate into our culture and our way of life, or we wait until its too late and we end up under their faith and culture."
All hysterical fearmongering, all from the right, and it totally counts as "freaking out all over the place."
Personally, I think the Bibles in question shouldn't have been burned, precisely for the same reason that the Koran shouldn't be burned: extremists will ignore the intent behind the act, and spin it to whip their followers into an unreasoning rage.
I also think it would have been a much better PR move for the military to send the Bibles back to that church, postage due, with a bill for the labor of our troops in unloading them, unpacking them, cataloging them, re-packing them, loading them back onto the plane, and flying them back to the USA. That'd teach people to check first before making our troops jobs that much more difficult and dangerous.
"I think we can all agree that this may be true, but taking that we know that, why are the US military provoking them?"
I doubt that they deliberately 'provoked them', and the Muslims probably knew that all along, but they are completely intolerant, and that's something that we will all have to deal with sooner or later. Islam is a scourge to freedom, and we had better come to grips with that fact.
Well if they weren't deliberately provoked, why was the Koran burnt and how did this become public knowledge?
Very good point, John. Just who did release this bit of info? If the burning happened on an airforce base, the Muslims should not have been there to witness it, surely?
As to why the Korans were being destroyed...from msnbc.com:
"A Western military official with knowledge of the incident said it appeared that the copies of the Quran and other Islamic readings in the library were being used to fuel extremism, and that detainees were writing on the documents to exchange extremist messages. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46477148/ns … n-burning/
That might explain the why but it doesn't explain how it became public knowledge.
It became pubic knowledge because the janitorial staff include are local Muslims who found and smuggled out the partly burned Korans. This was in the media coverage.
Then that was a bad move on the part of the CO who should have known what his staff were and the attendant controversy with burning the Koran!
Basically I don't think it even crossed his mind. They just confiscated stuff and put it in the trash.
And that from the army that thinks it's the most powerful in the world!
"Oh it just never crossed my mind that religious zealots might make mileage out of it!"
All it takes is that one person does the confiscating, and a second person not knowing what is in the bin of confiscated stuff does the burning.
You overestimate the organization capability of the U.S. Armed Forces if you think the right hand has any idea what the left hand is doing half the time.
In the big things, yes, the US AFs are among the most well-oiled military forces in the world. On grunt level tasks like refuse disposal, executive memos don't happen often.
"I doubt that they deliberately 'provoked them', and the Muslims probably knew that all along,"
Yeah, and the soldiers that burned those Pashtun Bibles weren't waging a war on Christianity either, or giving special treatment to Islam (as we have seen, they burned Korans as well as Bibles, no special treatment).
But that doesn't stop the Right from making political hay out of their illogical outrage.
"Well if they weren't deliberately provoked, why was the Koran burnt and how did this become public knowledge?"
If you think it was deliberate, then you have the burden of proving it.
""The right did not 'freak out'. That's a false claim."
Here's my support for the claim:...
But that doesn't stop the Right from making political hay out of their illogical outrage."
Where's your evidence of Christian rioting and murder due to the Bible burning? There's no equality of reaction there, and you know it.
'Where's your evidence of Christian rioting and murder due to the Bible burning? '
Oh, "freaking out" has to include rioting and murder? Wow, you must live in a really tough neighborhood.
No, I never claimed there was an equality of reaction, I claimed that the outrage felt by many Americans when someone burns a flag to make a point is the same kind of outrage felt by many Muslims when someone burs a Koran, the point being that we're not so terribly different than we'd like to believe. And I think I've supported that.
"Oh, "freaking out" has to include rioting and murder?"
Yes of course, since you are comparing it the Muslim reaction to the burning of the Koran.
The message from the left is that it's perfectly OK (and even fun!) to insult and make fun of Christianity, but Islam is to be respected at all times, lest they start killing and rioting.
They can dance in the streets and burn the American Flag and we are supposed to hold their hand and tell them we understand. If instead we sent a drone over and launched a hell fire missile or two they might quit their B.S.
I have stood on a roof near the west bank and watched them burn the American and Israel Flags and scream for our blood and I know how they feel about us. You can play politically correct games all you want. I seem to remember a September morning not to long ago when they attacked us and they took the footage off the TV because they said it caused hate. I think it should be shown on American TV every morning. And to hell with being politically correct. Be proud to be a American and stand up for it.
I will never support any book burnings. It's wrong to burn the Bible and it's wrong to burn the Koran, and it's wrong to burn the complete works of Winnie the Pooh.
The US are there to get rid of the Taliban, not to give them ammunition. I believe the Afghani's are allies, their soldiers risk their lives beside American and Canadian and British soldiers... the point was to get rid of the Taliban not create more recruits.
I'm sure if Afghani soldiers were stationed in the US and burned Bibles their government would also apologize.
I have to agree with Evan on this...
They say it was a mistake and I find that fully plausible as the burning was of mixed materials and done routinely for rubbish disposal.
They should take some course on culture at the place they are going to be deployed. The Koran is the most important symbol in the Muslim world. It is what they live for, their being and becoming. They value it the most, say for example like the Japanese they value integrity, that is why they perform harakiri if they come short of it. I am speaking as a person who immersed myself with student groups and lived with Muslims for two months to study their culture. It is what it is and we have to respect it.
I agree with you 100% regarding respecting the culture of the country in which you are stationed and of the people who call that place home. I have taken more than one class on Islam and the Middle East and have learned of the level of sanctity with which they regard the Koran. Based on what I believe I understand the fact that these detainees were using them to pass coded messages to one another also violates the sanctity of the Koran. So, in the original post the author stated that "if a Koran is to be destroyed, burning it is the preferred method for that disposal"
Since the detainees had compromised the sanctity of the Korans in question, shouldn't they be destroyed? I'm not saying that the manner in which they carried out the destruction of the Korans was done properly, what I am saying is that if they should have been destroy, it was done according to Islamic custom and therefor not nearly as disrespectful as some are making it out to be.
The Korans should have been turned over to an Imam or local leaders. The proper way to dispose it is not in their hands. They like to burn it themselves if they want to destroy it and giving importance/sensitivity/caring to the most important symbol of other culture is what is lacking there if they did it in purpose. Paid Afghan workers inside the base - their loyalty is always to their religion.
It is my understanding that these particular Korans had been written in. They were being used to pass coded messages. By having writing in them, our soldiers were doing the right thing and burning the damaged books. And since they had coded messages, it would have been STUPID to turn them over to any Islam leader. So, burning them was the right thing to do. Greg
America is the cause of all political and religious crises trending all over the world. Let America turn a new leaf.
I think we owe Afghanistan a big apology, and it should go a little something like this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYEctbGS … r_embedded
I was impressed with the comments made by the young lady on the video. A number of her statements were poignant and relevant.
It is becoming clear that everyone does not reason the same which is to say you cannot present the same arguments or even the truth to someone you are negotiating with who has a bomb strapped to their body as you would someone who doesn't.
It seems to me with America's ability to hide information it would have been more advantageous to burn those books in a place restricted to a selected few. Should anyone ask the books were lost or just misplaced.
by superwags6 years ago
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