Sure whatever President Obama, the Christain who trashed Christianity but stands up for Islam.
"And when the first Muslim American was elected to congress he took the oath to defend our constitution using the same holy Koran as that one of our founding fathers Thomas Jefferson kept in his personal library."
So what are you saying Obama, we are a Muslim Nation?
While you're at it, thanks for trashing American's telling us that the Muslims excel at education in comparison to the Americans. That was really sweet of you.
Because see if you want to be smart, you should be muslim. "Our God", excuse me? Not my God!!!
What, you want to help Islam fulfill their religious obligations but not the American's? Nice!!!
But hey, whatever! We can share the world alright but don't force me to accept your god buddy.
"Any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail." "American is not and will never be at war with Islam."
"The Holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind.""
"The Holy Koran also says, whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind."
give 1.5 billion to Pakistani", 2.8 billion to afgans.
Before he became president.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ucai … bible_news
Nice quote there Obama, not referring to the rock in Islam are ya? Our President is also a Preacher and America isn't right because it wasn't built on the rock.
What does he really think of the Bible and Jesus? Well he doesn't like the sermon on the mount, that is for sure! He rips into the Christians like no other.
You believe he is christian like he said in Egypt or Muslim? He didn't do the same for the Koran? Got a lot worse in that book.
He says, Hey I don't believe in abortion for religious reasons so I have to explain why abortion violates some principal that is accessible to those of all faiths and those with non at all.
What is in the house right now? Health care reform? What's part of the health care reform bill? It doesn't support abortion. Nice! You did it again oh holy one!
He's a religious nutcase! Someone should tell Obama he needs to read the Koran before he defends it.
But take his word for it right? He says that we should take Islam for what it is not what it is not.
But whatever right because my views don't matter and he has you believing that people like me are haters? He just craps all over us. Maybe you think it is okay but I don't.
You can defend the rights of Islam without trashing Americans and christians in the process. Wait, "Don't tell me words don't matter." LOL
He is loading you all up with bs!
Sandra, do you have some weird God we've never heard of?
The God of the Muslims, the Christians and the Jews is the same God. The three religions disagree on who His Messengers were, that's all.
The Christians believe Jesus was the Messiah. The Jews don't, and neither do the Muslims (though the Muslims acknowledge Him as a great teacher). That's the only difference - they all worship the same God in different ways.
Not totally accurate as any study of the Quran against both the Torah and the Christian bible would confirm.
There is a different personality talking in the Quran than in either of the other books, which agree with each other, whereas the Quran differs from both books.
hahahahahaaha -- you obviously don't know any Jews...
Wrong. Islam worships hubal the moon god.
That is a very good confabulation which fools alot of well meaning, islamic apologists. But that comparison of the Bible and the Quran would show you, when the quran is set in it's correct chronological order, that their god, Allah(which literally translates to God), is nothing close to ours.
Just a bad imatation.
What exactly does "ours" mean. If fifteen percent of Americans are atheists, and sizeable percentages are Jewish, Hindu, Confucian, Buddhist, Taoist, Shinto, and, yes, Muslim, I am not sure there is an "ours" in the context of this conversation.
In addition to which, Christian denominations all have their own tweak on what God is like. There is no "ours."
Yes their is. The one me and mine follow. "Our". Is it just that you want to argue?
And the jewish population of USA is 1% and all the others are less than that. So how sizable do you mean? Now the 15% Athiest i'll give you. I think it may be even a lil higher.
Oy Voy, and you obviously don't read my hubs, or know about me!
I am well aware that most Jews reject the Messiah, but the two books confirm each other as having the same author, the fact that the readers differ is irrelevant, the author is the same, whereas the author of the Quran is clearly different.
The Jews reject the WHOLE New Testament, whereas the Muslims explicitly accept it. I should know...oy voy right back at ya.
Not all Jews reject the new covenant.. ever heard of Messianic Jews?
I'd like to know more about this - maybe it's a Hub topic? When you say the author, who do you mean? Because God did not write any of these tomes, human beings did. So one has to allow for human interpretation, surely.
Does it matter? You like Obama's interpretation better? His sounds so much nicer than what it really is. You think the bible is bad, read the Koran. You will love it.
You're right, they both suck. My friend told me he couldn't believe how many references there are to hell in the Quran. He was not impressed. Let's face it, any group that bangs on about hell that much must have a screw loose....uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
This might be the only time I agree with Aqua. The irony!
Well, you are sure sounding like a hater...
where does this stuff come from? I know I read both his books (sure, they could or are just part of his master plan) but neither certainly never admitted or suggested he was a muslim.
lol, the irony. I just read Sarah Palin's book and she didn't say all those things the videos say she did. Should I take her word for it or should I just go by what she said?
Same irony here. He didn't say those things but his videos say something else. Those are edited videos representing the views of those who "hate" him... you know the rest.
You hit on something there. Who really knows what Sarah Palin really said, and when. This is the problem. The Internet SUCKS as a source of information about ANYONE, and the news media is not much better. And here, indeed, is the problem. Maybe Obama is a rastafarian, and Sarah Palin a Mennonite -- you and I will never know, but there are lots of people out there trying to get us to think x and y -- it's a slippery business , this (mis-)information age.
What Sarah Palin "really said" is no mystery. Her gaffes have been replayed over and over on US television. And of course anyone can buy and read her book which isn't totally factual according to reviews and comments from McCain campaign staffers.
You didn't read the book yourself but you are taking the review of the same people that never liked her to begin with?
Read much lately Mr. Deeds? The Palin haters say, "I will just go by what I have seen played over and over again on the TV because she still said them regardless."
Forget what she reflects in her own personal memoirs because she is so stupid she needed someone to help her write her book. Surely every person who has ever authored a book didn't need help, that is just absurd.
You ever seen a map of how close Russia is to Alaska? Let me help you out.
Would you look at that, you really can see Russia from Alaska. There is only about 3 miles between them. But Sarah Palin is just stoopid for saying you can actually see Russia from Alaska. What a liar she is.
Well let's just apply the same reasoning to Obama. I will go by what he is saying. He has a lot of nice things to say about the rest of the world but not a lot of nice things to say about America.
Many of the supporters of Obama live outside the US, many of the ones who disprove of him live right here.
You can say he is doing good things for the world but what has he actually done for America lately? Feel free to give all the credit for the bad stuff to Bush because Obama was just picking up where Bush left off.
Would you like to apply the same reasoning to the positive things that have happened as well. Obama has done a lot for other countries at the expense of the American.
You really aren't asking yourself why the 'world' loves him and Americans are slit down the middle? You living in Bush Nation or do you prefer the Obama World?
I prefer Obama world.
Sandra, have you ever read Obama's books?
You believe what Sarah Palin wrote about her times on the campaign trail over the things you saw on TV. OK, fair enough. You can't trust everything you see on video.
Yet you believe what you see on videos that have been edited by anonymous people over what Obama says himself?
Why the double standard?
You can see more of Russia on CNN. She is stoopid for saying that being able to see Russia from Alaska was significant when her knowledge of Russia or foreign policy was close to zero. Palin would be stretching her ability to model for toothpaste commercials. But I hope she runs in 2012 with Glenn Beck or Limbaugh as her pick for VP.
Sandra I believe in the first video that you posted Obama was talking about the Sermon on the Mount in reference to New Orleans and Katrina. Using the quote "I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock" from the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7) Obama was referring to the Bush administration "that has not tended to it's own foundation."
In the second video Obama ends by talking about common laws that are applicable to all people and religions. In this video Obama says the Sermon on the Mount is "so radical that it's doubtful that our own defense department would survive it's application." The Sermon on the Mount is Matthew chapters 5-7. In this instance where Obama is saying the defense department would not be able to apply the Sermon on the Mount I am sure he is referring to the part in Matthew chapter 5 where it says "if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other." The defense department has the job of keeping a countries people safe so it would have a hard time turning the other cheek and doing the job they are called to do. The Sermon on the Mount applies more to individuals. If a country was to apply it the first thing they would need to do is ask why they were attacked, truthfully.
Obama claims that he is a Christian but you certainly would not know it by his reference to the Old Testament laws in the first part of the second video. In this video Obama mentions Leviticus that suggests slavery is okay and eating shell fish is an abomination and Deuteronomy which suggest stoning your child if he strays from the faith. Well if Obama was truly a Christian he would know that these Old Testament laws from Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not applicable to Christians and have not been applicable for 2,000 years. In this instance Obama is making a mockery of Christianity. Then Obama says "before we get carried away lets read our Bibles; folks haven't been reading their Bible." On the contrary, if Obama claims that he is a Christian then I'd suggest that he reads his own Bible. Obama has to realize that the majority of the people of the US are Christian.
Is there a concern when the leader of a country claims that he is Christian but doesn't seem to know much about it and uses selected Biblical verses for political purposes? Your darn right there is. Just the same way Bush used Biblical verses for political purposes and led the country into an unjust war on false pretenses.
You are not a Christian anymore. Why his supposed "muslimity" bothers you?
Agreeing with Misha. Doesn't bother me if he is a Muslim. Bothers me that he's a socialist.
he is getting scarier every day.
and the thing is, those of us who voted for him voted our values. i am a Democrat but after him i just may switch over.
and i am not alone.
many of my friends and family who outsiders would view as 'liberal' have all expressed the same feelings about Obama, and have even started listening to Glenn Beck.
i can't think of any president in modern times who has caused such a shift.
keep on truckin' Sandra!
This got me thinking. I wonder if Michelle O is a Christian or a Muslim. I can always google it later, but does anyone know?
Good question, doesn't one have to convert if marrying someone of the Islamic faith
Not in all cases. My young sister is marrying a muslim (we're xtians) and she isn't converting.. There are a lot of non-muslim ladies who don't convert to Islam.
Ohhhh I had no idea
my muslim friend said, way back when conversion is needed-they are probs hard core then?
Mmmh. Must be hard to convert. They might have to go to some special muslim classes, who knows?
Ah well, I'll check it out tomorrow to see if the first lady is indeed a Muslim. I feel lazy to it now as its 1am.
Best Wishes, Sa Toya.
It depends on the sect and on the family. It's the same as Christianity really - some sects won't allow marriage outside the sect.
if her husband is a Muslim, she is a Muslim. Per; Al'Sharia.
Any one who cares to read knows the Obama's at least pay lip service to Christianity as all presidents must with so much crazed fundy thinking in America these days that you wind up with a tongue talkin religious zealot as a proposed presidential candidate.
Pailin was a new low.
Ha she sure was/ is
Question: I'm not American and haven't been up to date this past month on the sitch there or Obama...I was rooting for him to win, but it seems more and more that people are swaying, Not to sound stupid like I said I have been keeping up but what is he doing/saying or not doing that is causing it.
So much of the world wanted him to be President, it's so strange can anyone tell me?
I should probs google?
First off he is a Christian. Second off even if he was a Muslim, that is no big deal. I happen to be a quarter Syrian, and I know many of my ancestors were both Christian and Muslim. Least you forget many of the first Muslim converts were Christians. Religion is someone's personal business, but telling a pack of lies about Obama's is ridiculous. You gain nothing from it, and it is a form of slander really.
Slander is an oral statement disparaging another. When it is in print it is called "libel". To qualify as either the statement must be untrue. Over the past seven years I have posted tens of thousands of comments most of which proclaim BHO was born in Kenya, is illegal and is The Antichrist. If that information is true, which it certainly is, Obama cannot sue me.
A big part of it is Fox news, which is not helping Americans learn anything about the real stories. Lately I have noticed even CNN and Yahoo are posting stories that are very slanted, and almost Fox like. We have Lou Doubs and Glenn Beck to thank for some of these ridiculous stories/conspiracy theories. By the way, the Constitution was created so American leaders did not have to pass a religious test. Thomas Jefferson was not even a Christian, he was deist. Obama is actually much more Christian than Jefferson ever was.
Think about it -- a large chunk of your population is getting its news from a station owned by an... Australian...
It's an Australian conspiracy to unhinge you all. I can't believe you allow an Australian on these threads! (I bet if you dig enough, you will find Obama was an Australian in another life, on his grandmother's side, in the seventeenth century... you have been warned)
Here are Jefferson's words on Christianity:
"In some of the delightful conversations with you in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you that one day or other I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others, ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other. At the short interval since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs, the subject has been under my contemplation. But the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. In the moment of my late departure from Monticello, I received from Dr. Priestley his little treatise of "Socrates and Jesus Compared." This being a section of the general view I had taken of the field, it became a subject of reflection while on the road and unoccupied otherwise. The result was, to arrange in my mind a syllabus or outline of such an estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity as I wished to see executed by someone of more leisure and information for the task than myself. This I now send you as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. And in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make every word from me a text for new misrepresentations and calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public, because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that inquisition over the rights of conscience which the laws have so justly proscribed. It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. It behooves him, too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independent opinion, by answering questions of faith which the laws have left between God and himself. Accept my affectionate salutations.
What the hell? Sandra are you loony?
The president is not a f****ing Muslim! Get it through your head!
"Repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth."
Why muslims are f°°°ing ?
Why so rude !!!!!!?????
Because it's ridiculous and offensive to keep repeating this nonsense.
The president is not a Muslim. The president is not a Muslim. The president is not a Muslim.
No. It's not OK. But..... coming from where it comes.....
well, see, if i were President Obama, who says repeatedly how he likes to keep it real, i would hold a press conference that was a fireside chat sort of event in which people could ask me anything and i would finally quell these silly rumors.
NO i am NOT a muslim
NO i am NOT a socialist
and you really think his daughters are reading this?
i am sure the White House security staff, as well as her parents, restrict their time on the internet as well as their content.
Cosette, the people who are convinced he's lying will just be convinced he's still lying. Some people just love conspiracy theories,and the internet gives them a voice like never before.
I found this site very interesting, it looks at some of the urban myths about Obama.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barack … anthem.htm
Because they enjoy it and because they have so many wives?
You got that one right! The president isn't a Muslim! He just doesn't want a holy war on his hands and you can't blame him for that.
There are many African Americans that turned to the Muslim religion during the '60s and '70s because they saw Christianity as the religion of the oppressor and they saw Islam as the religion their ancestors may have embraced before they were put in chains and eventually ended up in the USA. Some of these converts to Islam changed their names.Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali. He's probably the best example I can think of. Regardless of this change, this boxer remained a fine American.
An American president if he is worth anything must look after all Americans regardless of religious preference they or he might have. Establish peace and good will among Americans then extend that peace and good will outward. Sounds like a plan to me. The president has plans on withdrawing troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. Let's see how that goes.
Goodness, the internet has a lot to answer for! I've been doing some Googling on this and come up with so many statements about whether he is Muslim or not.
First question - he's been a senator for twenty years, would he really have managed to conceal the fact that he's Muslim all this time?
Second, to do with the inauguration -
"Is it true that when Obama was sworn into office he used the Koran (Qur'an) instead of the Bible?
No. According to news accounts Barack Obama placed his hand on his personal Bible during his Senate swearing-in ceremony, which was conducted by Vice-President Dick Cheney. Those making this allegation have apparently confused Obama with Congressman Keith Ellison, who actually is a Muslim and was sworn in on January 4, 2007 using a copy of the Koran."
Even if he were a Muslim, to automatically assume he's on some kind of radical mission is ridiculous. The vast majority of the millions of Muslims in the world are nice, peaceable people like you and me. And they would be very offended at the nasty remark you made about their Holy Book, Sandra - which was completely uncalled for. Have you actually read any of it?
Michelle Obama has never been a Muslim. Not that it would matter because some Muslim people are actually nice. No offense, but when did it become okay to tell lies about people. Malia and Sasha read this ridiculous stuff people post about their family on the web.
Sweetiepie, you are the voice of reason.
Seriously? "Some muslim people are actually nice" - which implies most of them are not. And this is a voice of reason? You lost me Marisa
I am very reasonable Misha. Most Muslim people I know are nice, and if you have a problem with that, too bad for that. You honestly know better, and your comment is out of line! By the way, I type comments quickly, and do not always go back to edit. Sorry you can call me on saying Muslim people are nice, but not really call someone on saying things that may hurt others feelings.
Don't shift the load Sweetie. Forums are better than oral conversation, everybody can see for themselves what you said. Most and some are materially different.
Misha it's pretty obvious what she meant to say. Stop trying to read between the lines for everyone else.
It is okay, he likes to give certain people a hard time. I am not the cool kid in school you see. Never was...
I don't frequent the general forums much so I don't know what you're talking about. I do wish people would take each post on face value instead of carrying grudges from one thread to another.
Stop ordering me please. I do what I think feasible.
Well you were not feasible in your comments. It was just causing a ruckus over nothing.
If you just said - oops, sorry, my bad I made a typo - it would have been nothing. You tried to blame your own sins on me, instead.
No who is commanding who. You tell me how to speak, but those who wanted to get what I said got it. I have no problem with people being Muslims, and if anyone does, why do they care. What people do religious wise is their own business. Our own Constitution does not require a religious test of politicians, and Jefferson was a deist. Beyond a shadow of a doubt you happen to know for a fact I was actually a little insulted people look down on people who are really Muslim. They have a right to their faith without judgment.
I didn't tell you how to speak, you might want to re-read my response.
You imply I live in a bubble. Ridiculous! There are certain people on here you would never pick on like that. No offense, but really uncalled for.
You know I didn't read it like that, Misha. If she'd used "most" instead of "some" you'd have had no problem with it, would you.
Marissa, it was a typo. You and Misha actually owe me an apology.
What did I say? Sweetie, I guessed that's what you meant when I read your post, that's why I said you were the voice of reason.
I am trying to be. However, everyone is convinced that the president and his wife are Muslims, which is why they show so much skin on the beach in Hawaii. Never mind that proper Muslims do not do that, which shows how little bit have really done to research Islam. Also, what can I say, controversy drives page views .
What?? Muslims showing skin? What is that about??
People are accusing the Obama's of being Muslim, but they would not be wearing bathing suits on the beach if they were.
You are too funny !!!
My muslim friends go to the beach and show skin just like any of us.
that's like saying that all jews don't it ham. Some do. That doesn't mean they stopped being jews.
get real !!
Actually they are not Muslim. Yes I know proper Muslims who believe in wearing hijab.
you're too ignorant!
How do you know my friends are not muslims??
you two are very childish !
No I am highly intelligent. However, according to my Muslim friends that wear hijab if you do not do so you are not a proper Muslim. That is how they feel about it, but it does not mean your friends are not Muslim. Calling someone ignorant is a personal attack, and that is about it. Anyway I am a very caring individual, and I do not treat people like that.
Sorry, sarcasm doesn't work in print does it. I was trying to work out how people could use showing skin as a sign of being a Muslim.
Research in Islam huh? Read the Koran.. I mean the Holy Koran and tell me what you think. Not a nice book to support.
I have done research on Islam, but I have no interest in the religion. I do not even like most religions anyway. People get to weird about this stuff.
Honestly because I do not like lies, or things that are not truthful. Christianity and Islam have a lot in common also. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all call themselves people of the book.
Yes and what do you think those books call a person like me? Lies Sweetie Pie?
You need to sit down and watch the entire first video of his speech in Egypt. That sarcasm in the op, he literally said that Islam excels in their learning and compares it to the Americans.
Lies? Lies? Sweetiepie. He just called you inferior or stupid compared to Islam. You like that? I don't but he did say it. Just watch the video and don't tell me that it is a fake video.
Got a lot of people who don't want to hear just say, hey those videos are fake so I cannot trust them. Or, oh Fox news. It's not a fox news video.
But it's true. Everyone outside America knows that your education system is woefully underfunded and has been for decades, because successive governments have been scared stiff of being labelled socialists by funding public services like education properly.
Did he need to endorse that to the entire world and then offer 1.5 billion to Pakistani", 2.8 billion to afgans for their education systems and roads etc...
Sounds like Americans need it more then they do, right?
I can't speak about Pakistan (though God knows it's hardly a rich nation), but Afghanistan is the second poorest country in the world. Think about that. That means it is poorer that most of Africa! I mean, in Afghani schools, they don't have enough chairs or pencils... trust me, I have seen non-Western schoolhouses; you cannot compare at all... (and these are children we are talking about; I mean come on; you have no Christian compassion for poor children?)
Back in 1994 we gave ten billion dollars to Russia help Borris Yeltson. They even made a Saturday Night Live video parodying the whole thing making it out to be Indecent Proposal With Clinton and Yeltson playing pool. We have giving billions to many different countries around the world for years. I hope eventually we do pull out of Afghanistan, but at the moment that may not happen right away. We helped Europe rebuild after World War II with the Marshall plan. Seriously giving a country aid has nothing to do with Obama being a Muslim or wanting to further worldwide Islam.
"We helped Europe rebuild after World War II with the Marshall plan."
Which all had to be repaid to your bankers with interest.
Only Sweden fully repaid in 1975. Anyway, the point is giving a country aid does not make a leader a Muslim, or looking to further Islam.
I think you would find that the UK also repaid in full in about 1999 or so, I remember the news article... but I agree the lending does not indicate religious tendency.
I have looked at the videos, as a secular politician he makes sense, but obviously he has no intention of upholding American traditions supported by 80% of the populace who elected him.
So if you want the minority to rule the majority, he's your man!
That is probably the case with the UK, and I am thinking of a book I read in the mid-nineties. The point is Obama was elected, which means he had more votes than McCain at the time. He has actually catered to moderates and conservatives quite a bit more than FDR ever did. In California many of us I guess tend to be more liberal, or so I have heard. My point about aid is Obama is not a Muslim, and he is not funding Pakistan to further Islam. I want us to be out of the region soon as possible, and I would have liked to have seen Obama withdraw. However, overall I am happy with his decisions as president.
Well at least these folks don't live in countries like the UK or Canada (like myself), where people like Tony Blair and Jean Chretien can hold massive house majorities with only a third of the nation's vote.
Doesn't change the fact that the minority should NOT rule the majority in any case, whether that minority are rich bankers or militant liberals with a cause to fight.
The heck it doesn't. That is exactly what he said it is for. He said he wanted to help Islam fulfill their religious obligations.
That appears to be true from my experience. I have friends whose children have done exchanges with American students in the mid-West and they were horrified at the low standard at the American schools they attended, compared to their Australian schools.
I can't speak for schooling in the Middle East today, but we certainly owe a lot historically to Islam in terms of education.
Sandra, if you choose to believe the President is evil, that's your business, but you keep talking about the whole Muslim community as if they were the spawn of the devil, and that's simply not acceptable or right. I'm ashamed of you.
I happened to admire Obama's speech in Egypt. You know I happen to be part Arab, and my grandpa was a full blooded Syrian. His family was Christian and he was born here in the US. When I was thirteen he shared with me considering how people intermarry in all cultures most likely some of my ancestors are Muslims too. Many of the early converts to Islam were Christian by the way in countries like Egypt and Syria. Why do you not like Muslims Sandra? There happen to be many nice ones. Obama simply said in his speech we should not be above apologizing for past mistakes. He also shared other countries consider themselves great, just as the US does.
Nope the babble is not any better but he loved to tear that one apart. ironic?
May be. Until you get real issues, I can't take it seriously
Religion is a real issue Misha even if you don't have one.
Sometimes yes. Not this time, as I see it - unless you want to associate yourself with Christians of course.
lol Misha. I read both books. They don't like christians or atheist or buddist or pegans or jews. Nice try.
LOL This is not what I was talking about. All hardcore religionists are alike. We are talking about why current American president is not "The Change" everybody was voting for, and you keep losing the focus.
Exactly. I don't know if you'd noticed, but you're in the worst recession since the War, and you're prattling on about this rubbish. Craaaaaaaaaaaazy
Obama is pro-choice and while an observant Christian, hardly a hardcore religionist. The hardcore ones start threads about being upset they cannot pray at a funeral for an atheist.
Never called him a religionist. Obviously he is not.
If anything our hardcore religionists are mad he said people cling to their Bibles and their guns. Remember the stink they made about that in the forums lol.
Here is something to chew on. Hubpages is on the World Wide Web. That means it can be read across the world. Every time someone like you posts something like this, it stays on the Web forever. With each drop in the ocean of xenophobia against Muslims, you increase the chance of a normal, moderate, apolitical Muslim somewhere taking one more step towards becoming radicalized... because no-one likes to be demonized.
Next time there is a terrorist attack against "America and the friends of America" pat yourself on the back; you might have had a hand in it. This is not a game you know. People have been killed because of this crap.
Here is something else to chew upon, Islam states categorically that it intends to rule the world by Islamic law, if that happens we are all dead meat and you can kiss your liberty and freedoms goodbye as you slip into sharia law.
Well non Muslim America is not even breeding enough folk to replace those who die, and the only immigrants you allow in are NOT those who value your cultural traditions.
In 50 years there will be more Muslims than Non Muslims by birth rates alone... so where does that leave you in an election?
Your choice, either you support and defend your westernized lifestyle, secular or quasi Christian as you please, or by default your children or grandchildren will be forced to obey sharia law.
And they have killed for less too. Definitely not a game but put a gag on me for disagree with his politics and his religious enforcement for a religion that has been trying to dominate the world since its inception?
No thanks. Religion needs to stay out of politics.
Sandy, in this thread YOU are bringing it in. And I agree to what AS said here
EXACTLY. So STOP bringing it in. It makes you look silly.
The second sentence in the above post is stupid and presumptious. It implies that most muslim people are inferior to christians.
None of my sentences are presumptuous. Back off with the personal attacks as I think no one is better than anyone. Hubpages, the place to speak down to others? I think not, and I do not play your games.
If one does not think one is better than another...why the hell does one say it? "some muslim people are actually nice". one who does not see presumptiousness and stupidity is that remark is lame.
I most certainly did not, but like I said you are attacking me. I am intelligent and very smart, and I do not put up with being put down by guys like you. If you want to go pick on someone, buy a punching bag. Everyone that has read my comments knows Obama is not a Muslim, and I am sick of the ridiculous drama that has been focusing on this. To be honest, you and several others love the drama of putting others down. Please, act more mature than that.
"some muslim people are actually nice" are your own words...I don't get it...actually write a post in public and then deny it with the evidence sticking out like a sore thumb...am i missing something here.
I know Muslims are nice, and I type fast. Big deal, I think you are a troublemaker, and do not realize all the cogent points I have made on this thread. If anything I have been sticking up for Muslims. Also, I realize you thrive off drama and speaking down to people, but at least I am not going to resort to that.
Just read a post where a lady complimented you and you demanded an apology...real bright...I would suggest that you edit your comments before posting...i noticed that you didn't make any errors while you were trashing me. what the hell is wrong with you anyway?
You are spelling words wrong left and right. Anyway yes I am bright, and it says in the Hubpages FAQ the forum is not a place for personal attacks. I actually have no problems with typing fast, and stop telling me what to do. Yes I am intelligent, but I notice you make lots of errors. You treat people like second class citizens, and then wonder why they stick up for themselves.
It doesn't MATTER if most Muslims are nice or not. Becuase you have an electoral system and you voted Obama in (or enough of you did). Half the world looked on in terror at the election of an evangelical who didn't believe in handing out condoms to African AIDS victims, or doing stem cell research, but that was just too bad -- that's how it works. I mean, seriously, if Obama was a raving lunatic he couldn't do more harm than the Neo-Cons you just had!
I think we got this out of the way already, don't see a need to bring it up again.
What I am decent, and Misha you are causing trouble. I still say you owe me an apology.
Muslim men are forbidden to wear gold.
Obama wears a gold wedding band.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/2 … 39069.html
Muslims must pray, facing Mecca, five times a day.
Do you think that Obama could do this for 20 years and no one would ever notice?
Muslims don't eat pork. Obama eats pork:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/44/2008/ … ecial.html
Speaking as a Christian, I don't think Obama has any religion that he believes in, he was born a Muslim, which makes him an 'infidel' if he has 'converted' to Christianity and as such every Muslim is required to kill him as an apostate.
Don't see that happening!... they seem to love him.
His Christianity is very far from the Christianity that 80% of Americans profess to be truth, and in reality he is a lip service believer (in both faiths)who has conned the Muslims, Blacks and Democrats into electing him in order that he may take the Illuminatii/New World Order plan a stage further.
When he addressed the Jewish vote, he promised security to Israel.... hmmm how secure so they feel now?
The man is all smoke and mirrors, and as the Americans awaken to his duplicity it will be interesting to see whether they do anything about stopping his plan to destroy the USA as a world power.
My American friends tell me that there are 200 million gun owners in the USA.... now why would they tell me that?
Sandra, you were the one earlier today boo hooing about how people were calling you racist. Now you go and post this garbage about how the President is a covert Muslim and Islam is an evil religion?
RK was right.
And we hear this from the man who just said "fucking muslims"? Heal yourself first, doctor
tk, you're always so good at taking things out of context.
Not only taking them out of context but misquoting.
I hate guns and I am a pacifist. However, some gun owners think my pacifism and not liking guns will magically make theirs disappear .
I was sent a funny picture of a sign a gun owner put on his lawn. It read:
My neighbor does not agree with guns, so if I see anybody trying to enter his house illegally be assured I will not use my weapons to stop them.
Seems gun owners have a sense of humor!
Muslims can only wipe their butts with their left hand...is Obama a lefty?
Hey Tom, Muslims actually wash their butt, not wipe. Much more healthy if you ask me
Let's take all of thee comments, and replace the word "Muslims" with the word "Jews" and see how long Hubpages even stays online. This is seriously dangerous territory. You just can't say things like that -- a whole generation of Americans died fighting a society that turned a blind-eye to this sort of attitude to a defined group of people, in the nineteen-forties. It is definitely, seriously, not good stuff.
Yeah in Arabia and the other mid-eastern countries they wash it with sand, so huh. I bet that hurts like hell till you toughen up. I guess it is true, you got to be tough if'n your gonna be dumb.
A Muslim friend of mine told me that...he also said that if he let a fart on the way to the mosque...he had to go back home and take a bath.
May be he just did not mention that they wash? Like said something like "clean"? That would reconcile our experiences. Cause I am pretty sure they do wash, I lived in Azerbaijan for a while, and visited several other muslim countries. Well, I did not watch any muslim doing this, neither I discussed the topic with them, but all the places I stayed at had an extra water pipe in the toilet bowl, directed at your asshole, and a valve that controls it of course
Indeed, for centuries Muslims were world-renowned for cleanliness, because their religion demanded all this washing, five times a day. And of course, they had things like plumbing and civilization when Europeans were grubbing around in the mud. Either way, it doesn't matter. There are limits to how far one can joke about people who are minorities in your own country. Like I said, say these things about blacks or Jews and see how well it flies (I don't mean you... I am just making a general point).
He was Turkish...haven't seen him in years...I think he went back to get married.
My father (who was English, we actually fought the Germans for a while before America became involved) fought to STOP fanatics who wanted to suppress free speech and kill those who did not fit their concept of who had a right to live.
I have seen no evidence in any Muslim state (and I have cisited some) that there is or would be any tolerance for our Western lifestyles and ideals.
If saying whatever we want within the bounds of our national laws is in any way to be challenged, then it is wrong plain and simple.
I must away to bed now, it's 3.43 and I need to get up early.
Free speech is the first requirement of any free society.
If that is curtailed, fascism occurs no matter how it is dressed.
It's too bad you're off to bed, because I have also spent time in various parts of the Muslim world, and I would say that the Western lifestyle is RAMPANT there. In fact, the reason the West has nothing to worry about is because in forty years Muslim countries will THEMSELVES be as liberal as Western countries now are. That's why these Islamist fanatics are so hot and bothered in fact...
For obvious reasons I have reported this picture:
- it is enormously disrespectful to the victims depicted, to use such a picture in a forum debate.
- it implies that most Muslims would do something like this. I had assumed the poster was relatively old; I hadn't realized he or she was an adolescent, with a vile sense of what counts as acceptable.
People tell me that Turkey is a modern Islamic state. The people who tell me this are Turks so they should know. The Turkish leader who beat the ANZACs at Gallipoli during WW1 went on to form Turkey into a modern state that would be a gateway between East and West. Istanbul for centuries had that reputation anyway.
So if you are looking for an Islamic state where people of other religions are welcome I think Turkey is it. I have met Turks and they do embrace both the Western style of living as well as the Eastern. For the most part they are not hard line nut-job Muslims and are well worth knowing. My grandfather fought the Turks during WW1 and always had great respect for them.
You've got to be kidding.
Turkey is the most murderous country in the middle east.
1-1.5 million (Christian) Armenians killed, 500,000 (Christian) Greeks killed, 600,000 (Christian) Assyrians killed, and constant Jew-baiting, threats and synagogue bombings. And they don't admit to any of it.
Please forgive me...but your numbers and attitude favors bias belligerant christanity.
The Armenians you speak of were killed just after the first world war came to an end and it was a black mark against the Turks for sure. As for the rest, well, the Greeks and Turks had been killing each other at a steady pace well into the 20th Century and there is still a lot of animosity between Turks and Greeks. Turkey still remains the most open Islamic country to Western ideas and culture. Istanbul is still the most open Islamic city to other religions.
Yes. Do learn your history. The USA doesn't have a clean slate and Turkey is not the most murderous country in the Middle East, at least not in modern times.
There were once black slaves in New York. Then New Yorkers saw the light and came to the conclusion slavery was a really bad idea. Do we still make a carry on about how New Yorkers used to treat their slaves? Certainly not! we see New Yorkers in the present as liberal and forward thinking people. Do we attack all Americans over Guantanamo Bay? Certainly not! Do we attack Americans for the atrocities engineered by the USA government in Europe under a cloak of secrecy in recent years. Certainly not.
Torture is wrong and most Americans agree with this point of view. War is wrong and many Americans also agree with this point of view. Yet torture has happened in recent years and in the name of the USA.
No nation is completely clean of wrong doing. Australia cannot claim to be completely clean in terms of history. We should however look for the good where we can find it. Yes. I know my history and where I see a gleam of hope or a place where West and East can sort out some of our differences I find that more important than hashing over old battlefields and old atrocities. Give yourself and others a break. Give a dog a good name if the dog can meet you half way and let's see what happens.
With these type of threads and Fox propaganda the RNC will probably elect someone worse than Bush next time around. Honestly, it does matter if Muslims are nice or not because the entire tone of this thread implies one religion is not as good as another.
Exactly. And when we elect Palin/Huckabee in 2012, it will truly be the end of the American Empire.
He says he's a muslim here...
Now i really must sleep...
They wont accept that video because they say they think he just slipped up. I have never heard of such a thing happening.
I have never heard a christian accidentally say I am muslim... yeah.. I mean, I mean Christian. Thanks, that's what I am this week. My bad, sorry America.
But again... so whaaaaat. Don't you think the recession is a bit more important than this? It was immensely offensive to millions of Americans that Bush was an evangelical, but that's how it goes -- you get the president you get, warts an' all. Now stop this nonsense, and start writing to your congressman about the fatcat bonuses these bailout asses are giving themselves, and all the lobbyists running around Washington, controlling your nation... THIS is what a patriot would do!
An obvious slip up after reading the type of garbage that spread this lie. It all came from one email!!!
Perhaps my final comment(?) is that, if you want to be taken seriously, you might not want to post your ideas under the heading Conspiracy Theories..... it implies you actually know what game you are really playing, underneath it all....
It shocks me that Americans are reeling over the huge ripoff they have just been subject to at the hands of the financial sector, and yet it is this garbage about religion that is what some focus on. Those CEO's must be laughing into their bonuses.
You hit the nail on its proverbial head.
People will obsess about what they're capable of understanding: what religion someone is, who slept with who, etc. Financial sector bailouts: far too complicated.
I don't suppose the truth would be popular...
lol they got you fooled too.
This is what he said at his speech to Egypt.
"And when the first Muslim American was elected to congress he took the oath to defend our constitution using the same holy Koran as that one of our founding fathers Thomas Jefferson kept in his personal library."
Watch the video. It's a CNN if that helps anyone who is anti fox.
Merry Christmas, folks, let's remember this is the season of joy. What would Jesus say about some of the hate mongering I have read here. Unbelievable.
Well I accidentally call my sister by my other sister name all the time. When I am typing I often respond to my sister by what is on the screen. Yikes, really low. Also, there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim or a Christian. Even though pylos has been treating me like a second class citizen, I shall continue to stick up for comments that are hurtful. As a child I was subjected to taunting and teasing, and I just let it slide. When I see adults start acting like junior high school kids I do not put up with it. Please, let us perhaps realize this thread is not truthful, and hurtful to people who are Muslim.
Jefferson was a deist and quoting large quotes of text does not detract from that fact lol. Anyway, he did not consider Christ his personal savior the way many fundamentalist Christians do.
And according to Obama, he took an other the the Holy Koran.
That is not accurate Sandra. All I can say is controversy drives page views . I guess it is a good way to get more traffic for reading your hubs though.
Scream. You are so incredibly rude. Don't you know that Muslim Americans fight and die for you in the US armed forces. You are rude. Unbelievable. America is the refuge of all, the land that tolerates, that's why people fled Europe and went to your country. You are spitting on your own nation every time you make a slur at one of your minorities. Without America's example to the world, there would be no refuge for persecuted peoples. Shame on you. You are perverting the shining light to all nations that America is supposed to be, for petty political gain. Shame, I say again.
Yeah, I guess he was lying here in his own words.
The interviewer had to correct him, or he would not even have corrected himself. If it is the one I saw.
Still don't want the truth?
Rather make a simple mistake into calling the president on something, anything as long as it is defamatory and untrue?
Upstairs for thinking!
Doesn't sound like you do either.
Literally this is making me laugh because he says these things but no one wants to watch an hour long speech of him actually saying these things.
He says, I am a Christain then in the same speech he says "And when the first Muslim American was elected to congress he took the oath to defend our constitution using the same holy Koran as that one of our founding fathers Thomas Jefferson kept in his personal library."
Wow! How complex.
You keep quoting this as if he's saying that he is a muslim. WTF? Nowhere in that sentence does it say anything about Obama being a Muslim.
You are deluded.
As far as Obama is concerned, I do not believe he is a practicing Muslim. I know he went to a school that taught Islam when he was a child, and that he had Muslim relatives, but as an adult, he has not been active with Islam. Personally, I don't care if he's a Taoist. I'm more concerned with how he leads our nation.
OMG...Cheney swore him in! Cheney is Satan! AHHHHHH!
Yes, ironic, isn't it. Obama might be a Muslim but anyone can see his heart is generally in the right place. That does not mean he is competent, or that his policies are good, or that he is not open to being corrupted.... BUT COMPARED TO DICK CHENEY!!!!!!
Sheesh, man, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried...
Yeah Earnest...I read the link offered by the pulitzer prise winning St Petersburg press. Its self-evident true.
But need not expect bozos to read anything that approached truth.
So are you saying I should accept that over the words that came out of Obama's mouth?
No, you should focus on the issues instead of this rubbish.
I'm saying the President's trip was one of good will and attempts at complimenting another country's religion...its that frickin simple....something that has been a long time coming...what the hell is wrong with being friendly, courtious and complementary? Its the civilized way.
And I am not talking about the interview slip up video. I am talking about the speech he gave in Cairo. He could have been kind and friendly without having to rip on America's education. He didn't have to say compared to Islam, American's are dumb. So let me give you money because the smarter people deserve it.
He didn't have to imply to other countries that one of the founding fathers of this country was also muslim either. That's not very nice.
Your first paragraph is fair enough. He should not compare his own country disfavourably.
Your second paragraph is bizarre. I don't even know what you meant exactly.
He didn't imply that Jefferson was a Muslim. He says that Jefferson kept a copy of the Koran.
I am not a Christian, but I keep a copy of the bible.
You are deluded.
Jefferson studied world religions and philosophy, and you have to admire him for it. It does not mean he believed in much of what religion had to say anyway, but we will not be able to convince fundamentalist Christians of that. One nation under God was not not even made are national motto until Eisenhower was in office. Before that it was United We Stand.
I never said Jefferson was a "hardcore Christian." I just offered his quotes on the topic.
Jefferson was a deist:
For a moment I was talking about Jefferson, to illustrate the point that not all American presidents were Christian. Obama, on the other hand, considers himself a Christian. One mistake when he is talking and you really think he is a Muslim. To be honest this thread is not good for America and the world as it spreads a lie, and a very vicious one at that. I do not agree with this lie, but it is a free country and you have the right to purport it. It does not help to make our country a better place, and it actually creates a negative tone here.
In his speech, I think Obama was referring to Keith Ellison, our first Islamic congressman.
Keep trying habee. It is true what he said and he wasn't talking about Keith Ellison otherwise he would have said it don't you think?
IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT YOU JUST GOT RIPPED OFF BY YOUR OWN BANKS AND BOTH BUSH AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE LET THEM GET AWAY UNPUNISHED. WHY THAT IS, IS WORTH LOOKING INTO....... MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS DETRITUS YOU KEEP SPEWING OUT.
Um. That's what he said: "Our first Islamic Congressman."
You are deluded.
If Obama is a Muslim then under Shari'a we are a Muslim country. And as such it is the duty of Islam to impliment Shari'a in this new Islamic empire.
Just a side note. Welcome to the Ummayyid States of America. Long live Caliph Obama!!! Off with their heads!!!
Yes you are a Muslim country. That's why you have all those strip joints I guess...
First the rights, then the fun. You cannot take it all at once. Mess with a mans titties and its on. Yup, better take his guns first.
Jefferson never claimed to be a deist. This article explains it more clearly:
http://westernexperience.wordpress.com/ … n-a-deist/
I've read a lot about Jefferson, and I don't think he was ever totally sure what he believed as far as "religion" is concerned. He definitely believed in God; otherwise, he seemed to be constantly searching. I find this resource much more enlightening than anything from Wikipedia.
Yes he did claim to be a deist. I also have read quite a bit about Jefferson, and this particular blog is written by a conservative Christian with an agenda. Many want to believe the founding fathers founding America strictly on Christian principles, when in truth Madison, Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams were all deists. Anyway, some Christians want to believe manifest destiny and the displacement of Native Americans was all part of God's plan too, and I have seen blogs purporting that also.
Wikipedia is not the best, but it was just a quick link to show you. At least not just one group of people are contributing and writing there.
Sweetie, I'm honestly trying to learn more about Jefferson. Could you send me a link where he says he's a deist? I sent you one where he claims to be a Christian - fair's fair. lol. Thanks!
Okay, I read this article, but nowhere in it does Jefferson say he's a deist. In fact, it contains the same quote the first article I cited does, where he says he's a Christian - the one you said was from a "Christian with an agenda."
From everything I can find, Jefferson's beliefs were somewhat unique in that they espoused elements of Christianity, deism, and Unitarianism. Whatever they were, they worked for him!
So that would mean that, strictly speaking, Jefferson wasn't a Christian, which was kind of the original point. If Jefferson wasn't a Christian, it kind of stymies the argument that the American founders were all Christian.
Unitarianism is a form of deism, which holds God created the world, but has left people to their own devices. Thus, Jefferson being a deist studied and quoted from the Bible, but that did not make him what you would consider a hardcore Christian. Deists/Unitarians actually in many cases do not even believe in the afterlife or a personal savior. This is not the type of Christianity most Americans would consider devout, and thus Jefferson is not what you consider a Christian.
As I've already stated, I don't give a fig about Obama's religious leanings. And as far as Jefferson is concerned, he's always fascinated me. Again, I don't think his faith (or lack of) had much bearing on his leadership ability. I see very little similarities in Jefferson and Obama, other than the fact that they're both male and both U.S. presidents.
Sandra, don't get me wrong - I have LOTS of concerns about our president, but his religious followings are not among them.
More sanity from this mysterious hubber. It is not frigging important what the hell religion he is. Man, only in America...(or Iran, or Saudi Arabia... mmmm, do I see a pattern?)
I certainly do. And you think it shouldn't bother me.
Sigh. No , you don't understand. In the countries listed, yours included, political elements try to distract the people with religious issues so they can get away with murder under your noses. The Saudis are about as religious as my Aunt Mabel. Sure, they force everyone to follow their bizarre interpretation of religion (which is not seen in virtually any other part of the Muslim world), while the Saudi princes themselves are in the South of France with their yachts, champagne, and call girls. This is well-known in Europe, trust me, because they love to hang out in London and Paris.
And this is what is going on in America -- you are being ripped off as we speak by the biggest banking heist in corporate history, and yet you have been led to focus on religius issues -- the parallels are delicious, and tragic.
I know that too. What is your point? I should forget about it because my money is being pilfered. When you run out of money, what's next?
No, the problem is that the financial scandal IS the issue. The truth is that, even if it turns out that he is a Muslim, I promise you, I promise you, I promise you, 99.9% of Muslims share roughly the same values as religious Christians.
I know this because I have known stacks of Muslims, and none of them wanted to conquer anyone, but many of them expressed values that were far more like Christian values than liberal or atheist values -- so Muslims are your allies in the struggle for the values you hold dear...
And as for Sharia law, most Muslim countries don't have it, and most Muslims don't want it -- because Muslims are huam beings, and human beings like to have as much freedom as they can get away with; it is instinctive... I promise you...
My point is that you apparantly have read into the presidents actions things that are just not there...relax...tomorrow is a new day. Why be an alarmist when "reason" says there is no point in it.
Uh-oh. OK, let's try from the other side. What exactly you are trying to do? For a sake of discussion, let's assume we all agree that Obama is muslim, and this is bad. Now what?
Let's say he is. What do you think the Christians would think? You think most of them will just accept that their president is muslim whose values, no matter how similar they appear are so drastically opposed to one another, then what?
The majority of people who voted for Obama are not devote Christians, so your shot misses the target.
True. Plus, how many people who check "Christian" on the census box are leading lives Sandra would accept as "Christian"?
I just mean that we all know that loads of people who call themselves Christians swear like sailors, drink like fish, cheat on their spouses, watch porn, cheat on their taxes, and so on. And, by the way, this is another parallel with Muslims...
Your Majesty, I am giving you a break for today. I don't currently see what I can say above what I have said already. We may return to this tomorrow if you wish. ♥
Love thy neighbor?
edit: oh yeah, and you are deluded.
They are not opposed to one another. Muslims accept both the Old and New Testaments. Muslims venerate Jerusalem; and they do so in part because they believe it is where Abraham (almost) sacrificed his son. Muslims stand almost exactly where Christians stand on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and marriage. In fact, in Europe, where you could barely hit a believing Christian with a stone if you tried, it is the influx of Muslims that has helped Christians fight for these values.
In addition, uniquely, Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews, (but not Hindus or Buddhists, or liberals or atheists) and under certain circumstances no-one has to convert. Also, in historical Muslim countries, Jews and Christians had special protection under the law.
Finally, Mecca was so full of Christians at the time of Mohammed, there is little doubt this is where he got half of Islamic belief in any case..
But let's ask this question the other way around. Imagine you are a Muslim American, born in the USA, and fighting in Afghanistan with the US armed forces. Shouldn't you be upset that someone is posting this stuff on the Internet?
It won't work, AS. She has her mind made up. Facts won't persuade her, so thought experiments certainly won't.
That's your interpretation. Now ask the majority.
You've lost me. I have been hanging around with Muslims in various countries, both Muslim countries and Westrn countries for the last two decades.
But you did not answer my question. Because it relates to your incredulity that you might be rude and insensitive
Well many of us are making sane contributions to this forum, and I consider myself among them. I am discussing religion in the context that it does not matter what someone's religion is.
Fair enough. But as earnesthub has pointed out many times, from our outsider perspective it is an odd Western democracy where a presidential candidate cannot admit to being an atheist for fear of never getting elected... but maybe that is a skewed Australian-British-Canadian perspective. It just seems weird from our point of view that's all.
I agree with earnest on this point. Earnest knows I am not one of those Americans that cares about a president's religion. Everything I have been saying on here is quite the opposite actually. As an American I have lent some good expertise to the discussion by bringing up the point about Jefferson though, showing he was more of a deist. In his day that is about as atheistic as anyone could get really. Today he might have been an atheist considering the way he did question religion.
That is because America, even though many deny it and refuse to believe it, is a Christian country. Founded and otherwise. No matter how the left tries to deny this, in the end it is true.
I guess that's why you have all of those strip joints...
Not once is Jesus referred to in the US Constitution. In the Declaration they referred to "endowed by their Creator," which is pure Deist language and thought. If they were true hardcore Christians there would have been a religious test for office in the Constitution, and believe it Americans were trying to get away from that.
I respect that. Different things are important to different people.
According to this Wiki article, Jefferson never claimed to be a deist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ … Presidents
That is what I got from reading it. He belonged to the Unitarian sect, which is pure deism by the way. They do not consider Jesus to be God, and most do not even consider him to be the son of God.
3/4th of the population according to the latest census is Christian
25 percent is not Christian. That's an awful lot of Americans who might get a little antsy about people's concern that the leader is one of them dark-skinned religions...
Again, this is totally disrespectful both to the Muslims who fight in the US armed forces, the millions of non-Christian Americans, and the tradition of American tolerance that saw people flock to your shores.
(I am not direting this at you, prettydarkhorse, btw)
OH Misha, nice AVATAR LOL,
3/4 of the pop'n of the USA -- Christian
Jefferson was a rationalist who agreed with the tenets, if not the dogma, of Christianity. Nothing wrong with that.
Except that he implies that Jefferson is a Muslim. You still think there is nothing wrong with that?
Like me. But I am not a Christian either. I just think that the ideas Jesus is depicted as exemplifying are right on. Which also happens to be the Muslim position on Jesus... Muslims believe in the New Testament, and that Jesus was one of only a handful of eathshakingly important representatives from God.
I was not in his head at the time, but many Unitarians do not. Anyway, in the end it does not matter, but modern day Christians would not consider Jefferson among their ranks. He never spoke of Christ as his personal savior the way some presidents have. Carter is actually very religious, and you know recently he left the Baptist church because of his concerns about it insistence upon women being subservient.
Quite possibly the most ridiculous thread ever started. First post was nonsensical BS, and it got worse from there.
And posted by its own author under Conspiracy Theories!
Did you miss the ones about oral sex and masturbation?
If really seeking to know, this is very telling of the crazy lengths Obama had to go to in shutting up those who made an issue out of every word he spoke. Crazy that this was needed!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 567187.ece
I just joined this site and found so much hate towards Muslims and I am one, and I dont understand why people have f**k**g problem with Muslims. I dont give a F**k about them but suggest them get a f**K**g life ppl.
I already commented that this was going to happen -- I mean, it's not called the World Wide Web for nothing. Most Muslims are not political and are decent people. But seeing this stuff makes it look like the crap that Osama bin Laden tries to feed people about America is true. This is why it is dangerous stuff: it turns up the temperature.... and why would anyone want to do that. We are not sitting in our kitchens here -- this is an international forum of billions.
I'm not with you -- you think it's a fake poster? Not following you, sorry...
Yep, that's exactly what I am thinking. Sock puppet
Well, arshad is not a name many would know, and the English is sufficiently incorrect... but anything's possible. Still, my point stands, in my view.
Yes, I do agree to you on that. This thread is not something that will enhance East-West relations on a grassroot level unfortunately
Osama's a freakin' genius. Ten years ago most Americans didn't know a Muslim from a post office. Now, even my grandmother, who is not even American, or in America, goes on constantly about them... she never had a problem with them before.
That piece of turd sitting in a cave has generated a "clash of civilizations" out of nothing. He should be in PR work.
If not for him, somebody else would have done something else within several years interval. The fall of Empire was inevitable.
Did she start talking about them in September?
That is exactly my point. Osama bin Laden could see no-one in America gave a rat's ass about his little campaign, and you shouldn't have -- he was like a little boy not getting attention -- which is why he did what he did; and he got what wanted... the Great Clash of Civilizations. But it was HIS idea! Please, it's important to see, that every time you lump the one thousand million normal everyday Muslims who think about religion about as often as me (which is not very much) in with his little band of lunatics, you are playing HIS game.
Americans are generally good. Muslims are generally good. But you don't see each other on a regular basis. So he knew he could cook up false ideas about you, and about them, using tactics.... he has succeeded, and you are proving it.
And you don't think I have a reason to be concerned? Let's say I represent the lunatics how many would you guess I represent?
Well of course you should be concerned about terrorism, assuming you live in a big city - otherwise, not so much, frankly.
But what has this got to do with the price of apples. Obama is not allied to terrorists. I mean, what about this surge business? I swear to you, most Muslims are NOT impressed with Osama bin Laden; they know that he gives them a bad name for his own purposes. You should rent Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden. It`s a great movie; very entertaining; I am sure you can find it on Google Videos.
It seems clear from that, that, yes, certain people might sympathize with him, but that the vast majority think he is a dick (or don`t think about him at all).
Who cares? We don't need to kiss anyones butt! Unless of course it's our partners and only after missing an aniversery or birthday.
If thats the case they need to clean-up their house and prove they belong to a civilized sociaty.
Good God, the genuises are out tonight... How about this. Forget all that I wrote, and simply accept that it's rude. Or has politeness been excluded as an American value now too?
Yeah, just like the Christians did.........
Maybe not such a great example
All they have to do is stand with and not against us. Saying you are doesn't cut-it!
Two wrongs don't make a right! That said, If our government doesn't get it's act together you'll probably see more domestic terrorists. A lot of urbanites don't really understand the undertow. I don't think it would take much I've seen alot buisness at the gun shows and surplus stores way more than normal.
You have microphones and cameras in all of their homes, do you. Just where do they stand so that you can see them? On a Fox News interview? Hard to fit a billion people in a tv studio.
Muslims are fighting terrorists all over the world. The Turks are Muslims, they are your allies. The Egyptians, the Saudis, allies, the Pakistanis, allies. And then there are the MUSLIM AMERICAN SERVICEMEN FIGHTING IN THE US ARMED FORCES.
Muslim regimes fight terrorism all the time -- they have to because those terrorists want to overthrow them.
The entire world is afraid of a 'small' group of Muslim extremist?
"Hey oh what are we fighting for, don't ask me cause I don't give a damn, I am on my way to Afghanistan."
Originally that song said on my way to Vietnam but it doesn't matter right?
I am totally confused by your comment. The fight against Chinese Commmunism`s influence was, in principle, a good thing, because they were a bunch of bastards. The same goes for the Taliban.
But I am still confused. Let us say that there are a hundred thousand terrorists. That is a lot when it only took twenty to bring down the World Trade Center towers.
Yet, also, 100,000 out of 1,000,000,000 is 0.01 percent of all Muslims.
But I don`t understand still. The entire world is not afraid of them. I mean, most of America`s allies are in Afghanistan to lend America a hand against people who have specifically stated that they hate the US. But most of these countries have never been subject to terrorism themselves (except from homegrown terrorists like the IRA, the Red Brigade, and so on). They are helping you out...
What? I am not taking a shot at America. I am just saying, think about it -- if you were a terrorist, would you say -- Let`s attack Holland, or Toronto; it`s you guys who are the most visible, unfortunately. Why would terrorists attack Poland? Yet the Polish stood by you in Iraq.
Anyway, I am not sure where this thread is going, but I do think that threads like these make otherwise unpolitical Muslims think that Americans really do hate Islam -- but Americans didn`t even TALK about Islam until 2001; so, it seems to me this was a master-plan of that asswipe in the mountains that has worked, and every time threads like this go up on the Internet, he has succeeded in turning up the heat a bit more.
The people have to step up and point out the guilty! They know whos shooting the rockets and they know what relatives are involved. Don't fool yourself I saw all those cheering after 9-11.
Those people cheering were asswipes and should have their heads knocked together. If you`re talking about rockets in the Palestinian conflict, then probably other Palestinians know who is doing it, but I doubt that Muslims in India, Malaysia, Bosnia, Nigeria or America know who is shooting those rockets.
However, five out of six Muslims are not even Arabs, and even those Muslims that are Arabs live, in some cases, thousands of miles from the Middle-East, (Moroccans live on the Atlantic coast, for example, Yemenis live on the Indian Ocean). Arabs are hardly one big group -- Moroccans and Saudis can`t even understand each other`s dialects, for example.
"hey oh, what are we fighting for? Don't ask me cause I don't give a damn. I am on my way to Afghanistan".
They have to stand up and be counted as a good guy or gal. I don't have any thing against anybody that can be honest and just. But we have to be on our guard we can't assume anything.
Well this is true of all people and in all situations. But in a way this is part of my point -- yes, of course, always carry a big stick (Teddy Roosevelt, right?), but not assuming anything also means not assuming everyone is your enemy. I know it`s a tricky business. Obviously what those freakoids did on September 11th would leave anyone extremely paranoid and angry; I know these feelings, because I am British, and it was hard not to see all Irish people as potential threats until fairly recently... nevertheless, it was still wrong of me to do that, because 99 percent of Irish people were NOT threats to me, or anyone else.
Anyway, I get what you`re saying, but I guess because I have known so many Muslims in so many places, I see that the media presents such a skewed vision. I mean, take this Iranian loser. How many times have you seen reference to him this year --- tons! But half of his own (Muslim) people can`t stand him...
You're right. I do wish we could all get along and do whats best for our families and our planet. Good conversation! Merry Christmas! I'm going to bed.
Thanks for being a voice of reason and sanity on this thread, Adsense.
Where to start with this one...perhaps I should show it to my Albanian Muslim friends as I am quite sure that they would be thoroughly bemused by some of the rhetoric on here.
It seems that most people believe that the entire Islamic world consists of Saudi Arabia and Iran. The Gulf States, for example, have been forging ahead with reform - women in Kuwait and Bahrain make up the majority of students in higher education and are beginning to occupy positions of influence. Yes, there is still work to do, especially in the area of political representation and opening up democracy, but these states have come a long way in just 50 years - from nomadic tribes to modern countries. How long did it take the US and UK to build democracies?
I don't know if anybody else noticed, but a man of peace died in Iran this week, Grand Ayatollah Montezeri. He is worthy of mention in the same breath as Desmond Tutu and Aung San Suu Kyi. This is acting as a focal point for the Iranian opposition
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00599.html
Yes, there are some regimes who use fundamentalist Islam as a weapon to oppress and as a way of neutralising the reformists, but this does not mean that you should use this to condemn an entire religion. The vile Greek fascist regime used Orthodox Christianity as a basis to oppress their own people - does that mean that we should assume that all Christians are evil? Yet that is the leap that many make with Muslims.
I agree with Sparkling Jewel that the media and Murdoch have much to answer for as they never cover stories of peaceful Muslims because that would not fuel the fear that sells newspapers. There are thousands of young Iranian and Saudi women and men writing blogs, at risk of torture and imprisonment. Why not try visiting them and leaving messages of support? Muslims are speaking out against terrorism and oppressive regimes, but few people bother listening.
60 million Pakistanis signed a petition against terrorism:
http://www.yehhumnaheen.org/cc.php?fina … =index.php
Did Murdoch report it?
Rod: Turkey is pretty open to other religions, as a secular state, albeit with a poor record in the human rights department, especially if you are Kurdish. Albania is pretty good and most of the Gulf States, with the exception of Saudi, allow freedom of worship but not evangelizing, including Islam. Greeks and Turks are both guilty of lying about atrocities - there is a big scandal in Greece, at the moment, about the biased nature of the history textbooks. The Turks are not alone in playing down their own excesses. Incidentally, Hillary Clinton recently oversaw a thawing in relations between Turkey and Armenia - I like this new approach to US foreign policy
PS - Sneako - Just realised that I quoted you and the above is not aimed at you. I have respect for your honest opinions and kind heart
Besides which, millions of "them" already belong to a (semi-)civilized society -- America. This what is so incredible; we are talking about American citizens, many of them born in America, some of whom have parents born in America. This is no different than all the racisms of the past. Depressing...
Interesting! When did Obama convert? He was slammed for Rev White a Christian pastor's being his pastor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwMPNxwHmQ. Oooo maybe Rev White was really Muslim???? May be Kennedy wasn't Catholic, after all he was Obama's mentor. Maybe he was Muslim too! Does anyone know??? Obama's kids go to Sidwell Friends School. It's suppose to be a Quaker school http://www.sidwell.edu/. I bet it's a Muslim school - Obama's just so clever - you think??? Does anyone know if his mother converted? She was the white woman who raised him. Maybe she was the one that turned him - anyone know? Anyone????
Yeah what happened to all that Reverend Wright stuff? Maybe Obama is a Muslimachristianian
Wow! I knew it! I knew it! Those damn liberals pulled another fast one!
I think it is a valid point that there aren't enough Muslims (that we hear about) standing up against the actions of those that have distorted the Islamic religion into one of hatred and death to infidels. It may just be another one to blame on the media for not investigating and reporting enough, if the Muslims are speaking up against the violence.
Well, the media is too interested in Tiger Woods and Brittany Murphy to actually do some JOURNALISM. And this is the problem -- it doesn`t matter if you stand up for something, or against something, if you are deemed by the news channels as not likely to get ratings or advertising...
I wonder if the media is feeding what the population wants, as use to be the charge against them, or if they are just doing what some elitist, world manipulator wants to keep the ball rolling and the money coming in to line thier pockets...
war is a big business/money maker
The Detroit area, as you know, has a lot of Muslim-Americans. Their leaders spoke out strongly against 9-11 and every Al Qaeda atrocity since then. Many of them are quietly cooperating with law enforcement authorities on terrorism issues.
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