we thought our family member had a spider bite on her arm, but God suddenly told me that I needed to get her to the hospital right away,it took convincing for about an hour, but I won out, and we drove her to the er. The doc takes one look at it, and within ten minutes she;d had minor surgery to drain (or whatever it is they do, I got kicked out of the room for too much anxiety)the penicillin resistant staff infection in her arm. The doc was happy we acted so quickly. Those things can get really bad, and even kill you. THANK YOU GOD I LOVE YOU
Perhaps to you it is, to me it's pretty normal.
People are disturbed by good things that God does for people. It hammers at the very foundation of their non-belief and part of me thinks they are a bit jealous, having confidence in only those things they can see, feel, hear and touch.
God is good.
even to those who are disturbed because they do not recognize Him working.
It took God to tell you that a spider bite might be dangerous?
Are you serious? How many spider bites are dangerous? Do you go to the doctor every time you have any type of reaction to a bite? The insurance company must hate you.
or a bee sting.. or an orange or a peanut.
It didn't TAKE God to tell but God TOLD. This is love and relationship.
Sometimes things can be cherished as miracles just because they turn out a certain way despite reason and logic and all the many interesting possibilities. Its like the guy says, " One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see! "
When my daughter was little, about 31/2, she was playing near the fender of an old ('49) VW I came out because she called me to look at something... she was very tuned in to all creatures, big and tiny. She was pointing at something hanging off the fender with her forefinger. I bent down to see what it was. I was horrified to see the red hourglass belly of a black widow... But, with great relief, upon closer inspection, I saw that it had a curled up look to it. It was newly dead! How did it die? To this day I think that my daughter's guardian angel made the spider die before she could touch it!
There is no support for guardian angels as in angels that are specifically assigned to us. It would seem the best angle on this is that any angel nearby suffices to help out, but then again, God is everywhere.
I did not expect this from you! My daughter's guardian angel saved her many a time... How dare you use an imagined sense of superior authority to correct ME. You who gives everyone a piece of your mind continuously. You, who expects others to listen to YOUR claims!
what is your proof to support what YOU say to ME? No one asked me for proof... and I do not have it except by wishful thinking. Why do you correct wishful thinking? Why suffocate blind belief? Isn't that what you, yourself encourage?
I would not correct you.
Thanks for nothing.
I am happy to hear that your family member was saved from what could have been a life threatening condition.
I am curious about the claim that God spoke to you; since your last thread was a complaint that you hadn't heard from him in six weeks. Is this typical of the type of contact you were in the habit of receiving prior to the last thread?
I would like to take this thread at face value; but was it defnitely a voice seperated from yourself who told you to take the family member to the hospital, or was it your own mind running through all of the possibile scenarios? Had you read anything recently concerning the so called 'super bugs'? There has been a lot about it in the news and I would think it was possible that you might have run across one of those articles which would have given examples of the type of things to be on the look out for.
Either way, I could see you giving thanks. Your fast action saved your family member. But, I am curious about the claim of the voice speaking to you.
That last thread was semi-serious. I was irritated and confused as to why God would desert me for so long. He HAS spoken to me before, but most of the time it's through feelings and signs, but I always know it's God.
This was God practically shouting at me, without words. It was extremely intense. This has renewed my faith and trust in God to a great degree. Hopefully this means the dark night of my spirit is over.
Good for you. I'm very happy that things are going better for you in the spiritual department.
Couldn't it have been your own intuition? The subconscious does amazing things, including allowing you to think the idea came from outside yourself when in fact it didn't.
I have seen too many things to believe in intuition that doesn't come directly from God.
I know too much to believe in god. Particularly about intuition and the subconscious.
To each his own. Thing is, I totally understand why you don't.
I don't like to argue with spiritual infants, but I will make an exception for you.
Mighty Christian of you. But I am not seeing an argument from you. You can not know with any certainty that god talks to you. If you say you can you are lying to me and to yourself.
What you can do is tell me you have faith that you talk to god. You probably do believe it, but that does not make it true.
Now, I can tell you why you think you talk to god. But I doubt you would be interested. You want to believe it even if it is not true.
Now if you want to talk spirituality, I could tell you a few of my own experiences and then tell you why they do not point to a god. And I am sure I have seen what you have seen and more. But again, I doubt your interest.
I am interested. Please start with your own spiritual experiences if you don't mind.
I wrote a book about them. Suffice it to say that I have had out of body experiences, esp experiences, I've reached all the states of mind Hindu mystics talk about. I've even had Jesus talk to me in plain words while I looked at him.
It was during an out of body experience that completely blew me away. As I left my body an overwhelming feeling of coming home hit me. I knew I had been there before. After a while marveling at it all without thinking about it consciously, I saw who I knew was Jesus, and he said to me: It is not your time. You have too much to do to be here now." And that's when I was snapped back in to my body.
It was clammy and uncomfortable for several hours. But I had a sun glowing in the back of my head for months.
Yet even when it happened I knew what was really going on. Can you guess?
Natural DMT euphoric experience, or something along those lines?
Good guess, natural DMT may have had something to do with it. But the point is, it was all from me, not from outside me. My brain, my subconscious.
Notice I said I was not thinking consciously. There is a trick to out of body experience. Anyone can do it with a bit of practice. One of the criteria is reaching a state of non-thought. That is to say awareness using only the subconscious. As soon as you use conscious thought you get snapped back in to your body.
Your subconscious holds all of your experience and beliefs.
The subconscious is where we live most of the time and it is where we act from. The conscious mind is too slow. But what it does is deliberate and as logically as possible for the individual, figure things out.
What consciousness does is educate that instinctive subconscious. But other than deliberation we are mostly on auto pilot, the subconscious.
That is where we get our ideas from, even the great ones.
I am a troubleshooter by trade. Often when I come up against a very peculiar or difficult problem that I just can't get a handle on, I often "sleep on it" . That is to say that I forget about it consciously and consign it to my subconscious. A while after I've done that the answer comes to me as if by magic. Some would say god. But it is no such thing.
My subconscious has all my experience and all the training I have given it through logical deliberation. The answer is there in the combination of all that info. All that is needed is that it be brought to the forefront. Once educated the subconscious can do all the work on its own.
Doctor Persinger of Laurentian U has what is known as the "god helmet." It has an electromagnetic probe in it that can trigger spiritual experiences in people. It has made people talk to god, to demons, to people alive and dead, to aliens, and it has even been reported to have given someone an amazing sexual experience. All with a little electromagnetism.
The brain is an amazing thing. It will create a reality for you even while you sleep and dream. One can have spiritual experiences with drugs or naturally. Even at will if trained for it.
In other words, the brain is very capable of doing much more than you can imagine, all on its own. without your conscious help. That's why it gives the impression of information coming in from outside.
Not unless he's a vampire, surely? You don't think much of your god's intellect then? You really do believe that he punishes people just for not believing he exists? How petty of him were that true. Not a god worth worshiping as far as I can tell.
But like you said, each to their own.
But think about it. It;s really all you. You had good intuition tonight, or whenever it was you took your child to hospital. You do yourself credit. Don't give that credit away to an imaginary god.
Well you can if you want to. But if want to know the truth..... just admit it to yourself.
God doesn't punish people as far as I can tell. I don't know where you got that out of anything I said.
We are here to grow spiritually. Most of us don't want to. Most of us aren't ready to. If it's God's will to drag us kicking and screaming when it's our natuarl time to go, then that's that. I doubt many go willingly. Life is fun. Some of us get sick of it eventually though. We'd rather stay in the sand box and kick sand in each other's faces. I think it's rather nice of him to drag our asses out of the muck. Like puberty, spiritual growth is strange, indecipherable, but a necessary stage in each person's growth from animal to half animal to spiritual being. What's a spiritual being? fuck if I know. try explaining what sex is,and that it's a GOOD thing to an 11 year old. All an 11 year old thinks about that nonsense it that it seems like some weird disturbing nonsense.
All religion is is spirituality that is ununderstandable spiritual growth in it's first stages, interpreted by different prepubescents who have no real clue what they're talking about.
The sun and the moon are the mobile swirling above your crib.
Sorry. I got from your statement: "it's gonna suck" that you thought god sends people to hell for not believing he exists. It is a common statement around here.
So what did you mean? Surely not that I would mind being dragged in to spirituality? I don't care what the truth turns out to be, as long as it is the truth. So if he does exist I won't resist. I never have.
The trouble is, in my search for god, like the cast of the wizard of OZ, I always found a man behind a curtain pulling god's strings, while others told me to ignore the man behind the curtain.
And you are correct. The spiritual path is not an easy one. You might be interested in a series of hubs I did called: The Road To Becoming a Warrior.
And yet, the thinking person would probably see those things as explainable in terrestrial terms.
The believer leaps to conclusions of magic.
I don't believe in magic. Only the natural and biological process of spiritual growth.
It's just a word for direct intervention by God. No magic needed.
the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.
Sorry, but you need to believe in magic to believe in miracles. They are the very same thing.
An interjection, as I've never truly understood the word "miracle" as used by believers.
Does a miracle violate natural laws (it is something that cannot happen) or is it something that happens all the time without God's intervention?
If the first it would seem proof that God is acting, if the second then how can you tell God did it? What makes it different than anything else that happens that you can then claim it is a miracle rather than man's doing, coincidence, etc.?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat … le4626652/
They themselves get to decide what is a miracle or not.
You may be right. I didn't get an answer...
Why can't they??? belief is helpful toward the the feeling of hope!
Warning: Off topic response:
It is better to have hope in God than in a president! Especially in a president who does not believe in God. He may act like he does... but he doesn't, according to a book concerning the "amateur" we have in in office. At least Atheists are honest about it.
Where would this president be, if he just flat out stated it?
He says he does, but you won't take his word for it? Perhaps you don't believe in God, maybe I should do as you do and assume you don't even though you say you do?
You are right.( I believed what someone told me was in a book she was reading. Apparently the book backs it up with facts. She was telling me all about them.)
But, lets say it was true and he came out and declared that he did not believe in God ...(in fact the author of the book, Barack the Amateur, says Barack thinks he, himself is God...but I digress.)
What if he came out and said that he has no belief in God, (outside of himself.)
Would the nation applaud?
Lol. Sorry, but we both know that isn't true. There has never been shown any "natural or biological process of spiritual growth". What you refer to is equivalent to magic.
God is silent for reasons that God understands. Sometimes we become silent toward Him first, taking things for granted and lalalaing our way around. God is silent for others reasons also but God always knows what he is doing and why and in the end the best always is the result.
to support your claim of making stuff up.. please describe your evidence that this is made up
You have no way of knowing what your God knows or why he does or doesn't make himself silent.
you call that evidence? no wonder your the way you are.
I could make such a long post about adam walking in the garden with God, moses and the law, the ways of God clearly spelt out, we could look at the prophetic nature of prophesies so accurately spoken, we could skip so much persuasive evidence about how God interacts with his people that you would be a year older after reading it all. Then we could go to the NT as see jesus, God in the flesh walking amongst his people and his picking 12 disciples, Gods plan for redemption and just ignore that Jesus spoke to everyone, the we could see Sauls life (Paul) changed and dramatically turned around, We could then speak of Gods spirit in people and all of this and more shows interactivity of God with humankind throughout thousands of years. We could even mention afterlife - again another example of how God wants to be with people. And wait there's more... but your two lines of personal opinion preclude my going into greater detail.
And you believe that because...God says so?
It reminds me of the ad being run recently where the girl thinks everything on the internet is true because it's on the internet.
Is that what you are doing with your lottery numbers?
Don't take this the wrong way, but what is the difference between her believing a voice told her to get a family member to hospital asap, and you believing a voice told you to play the lottery?
Are you asking me what's the difference between being given lottery numbers and knowing when to take someone to the hospital? Should I take my own advice and take credit for picking those numbers? I'll give some credit for your critical thinking skills Emile, however you question my comment about accountability, but don't question where the voices came from.
1. What is the difference between being given lottery numbers and being told to get someone ... against that person's own wishes...to the hospital?
2. Should both of you take credit for following through on inner guidance?
3. Where did the inner guidance come from in Mr. Radman's case?
4. Where did the inner guidance come from in janesix's case?
Yes, that is the question. I wonder at us. We have an experience that can be attributed to nothing other than a spiritual moment, and we accept it. Someone else makes a similar claim and they are not viewing it logically. I wonder why we don't give others the same latitude we give ourselves, when reviewing experience and determining what to attribute it to.
I have no idea where the voices you guys hear are coming from. I suppose if they decide to gab with me I might hone in on an idea. For the time being, I'm simply happy for the both of you. It's very interesting.
I understand inner guidance. When I say, "God help me!" I get an immediate response. It is in the form of my self talking to myself. After all, God is within and without. He is in You, Me and All.
It is not so mysterious. It is pretty constant with all people, all the time
...except atheists who wish to ignore the soft voice within and without.
From my experience, one just has to be open and absorbing.
Kathryn, I applaud you.
You're beginning to understand the "inner guidance" is just you. Like you say, it is not so mysterious.
Just me as a small drop in the ocean of God.
(maybe you should stop applauding!?)
God, (the ocean) is not so mysterious.
I have been working on this awareness for a long time... so you are wrong when you say "beginning to understand."
I am thankful to Jesus, Paramahansa Yogananda, Sri Yukteswar and all the saints of all religions. Without them where would I be? I would hate to think...
For me, meditation is the key. It helps one be open to God's omnipotent presence.
No Kathryn, it's just you, no gods required.
You, A Troubled Man, mean to say, "no God required." It is Interesting to note that that you did not write it the way you meant it.
I am sure you know full well we are not discussing "gods" here. We are discussing
Yes Kathryn, I understand believers only focus on their particular god, ignoring reality and the fact there are so many other people claiming exactly the same thing about their god.
Oh, to me they are all the same God. My understanding is this:
There is only one God. To Hindus God is Bhrama. To Shintoists God is Nature. To Buddhists God is the soul, Inner and Outer.
To Jews God is the One Father.
No they are not the same God/s. The hindus believe in many gods while christians divide one God into three. The Jewish and Muslim God doesn't contain Jesus. All different Gods.
That would be another one of the fallaciously made up stories that doesn't fit in with reality.
There is only one God, for heavens sake. Even Jesus said the Father was greater than he, Jesus. But you do not believe in Jesus ether. Why cause you don't want to believe an old 2,000 year old tale.
Atheists can be helpful to theists. Would you like to be?
I pause to close my eyes and breath slowly for a moment. Which clears my head, allowing me to focus Whatever thoughts are the result of that process are usually dead on to the situation at hand, or the answer I was looking for. But, attributing it to God? I don't know. If we accept that then we have to accept all claims of interaction. Many beliefs attributed to a desire to stay within the will of the god people claim to know personally make you shudder. So, with my opinion of what a Creator would have to be in order to exist I can't accept your statement. It would mean God was the impetus behind all thought. The good, the bad and the ugly. How do you resolve that?
The difficulty seems to be this:
The reality of God versus the concept of God.
I feel sorry for those who were indoctrinated (by parents, church ministers, or priests or Sunday school teachers) by the concept of an all watching, judging and/or punishing God.
I was never given that concept. I do not feel (and never have) the wrath and punishment of a watching God. God loves us so much he absolutely stays away until called upon... so to speak. I believe we have freedom from His scrutiny by knowledge of this fact:
He follows the dictates of one's will.
So, if we want to have a good romp in the bedroom, unless we invite Him to watch ... he wont!
I appreciate your view, but I can't resolve it with the fact that many people call for things they need and don't receive help. But many people claim to call for things they want and do.
I'm not averse to belief. I have my own. But, my belief can't take precedent over another. I can't benefit where another doesn't. I can't have wants satisfied when needs are ignored. If I do, then it negates it as being truth in my mind. Which probably sounds silly.
I don't over think it. I perceive the essence of God with total trust and openness. He has his own will and his own reasons for what he gives and doesn't give, I believe. Here is a story my mechanic told me. I will make it brief as possible: His name is Ry. One day in the 80's Ry went to Mexico and got stranded on the beach in a truck with the high tide coming in... he got swamped there on the beach. He didn't know what to do.. He was so freaked out he started drinking and then he started praying to God to help him.. Well, a yellow rope showed up out of nowhere.. and a man in a vehicle came upon the scene and they used the rope to pull him off the beach. Later in his life the yellow rope showed up again. He was trying to make a decision to buy a particular house or not ...and a yellow rope showed up on the ground in front of the house. So naturally he bought that house. It was a good purchase and he loves the house to this day.
(I do not plan to give any more examples of miracles, as I know they really irritate Radman...So, this was my last one. Ry just told me this story last week when I took my car in, so it was fresh in my mind. Who knows if it was God or not or just coincidence... I think Its okay to attribute it to God. It really is.
As Radman said, "I suppose it does no harm to others..."
You said you don't try to over think things. Maybe that is a good thing, maybe it isn't. I suppose, if we could all focus solely on our own existence and never look about. If we didn't compare. If we didn't have what I believe the inborn need to ask how and why it could be reasoned that our cosmic beliefs do no harm.
But the nature of our nature is evident in our interactions. If we attempt to do no intentional harm we have to, at some juncture, think about the effect our words and actions have on others. How does one belief of being fully blessed affect a person who is, by their perception or our own, suffering. God may he everywhere. But, there is more evidence that a ubiquitous presence results in no tangible benefit than there is evidence of being able to tap into this presence for personal gain. Believing we gain, negates the value of this presence. It creates angst and envy. It drives ridicule. Would this be the intent of a ubiquitous presence? I can't fathom that it would be.
So, I ask myself if a presence did exist, what would its hopes be for our reality? What could we gain by experiencing it? The only answer I can find is empathy. By being separated from the whole and gazing through a unique set of eyes we have the chance to rise above desire to satisfy personal desire. We have the opportunity to experience cause and effect, because we are no longer inextricably tied to both. We are One, gazing across at another One. Interacting with another One. We are a unique reality interacting with other unique realities wrapped inside the ball of a greater reality.
This greater reality its hidden, by my estimation, in order to allow us to benefit fully from this unique reality. I don't mind that your perception of reality includes being tied to the greater reality. But I do worry how one person's perception adversely affects another's simply because if we are all one we are working against ourself. If we are one with the universe then so is everyone. And creating conflict is against our true nature. So, being in touch makes us out of touch. Being connected creates a disconnect. It is something I find impossible to resolve.
This is a Forum. We should keep in perspective what is going on here. We are all simply offering our understanding and sharing it. What one does not agree with, one does not have to take seriously.
1. Read and agree
2. Read and disagree
3. Not read.
Hm. Having read through your conversations with others on this thread; I think I'll choose option 3 when I run across your posts in the future.
Why would you read what you do not agree with? It is beyond common sense.
I can't understand what you write, so half way through I give up.
None of this is required reading!
I think we have a basic disagreement on what constitutes common sense. But, that's the beauty of life.
I will say that your claim that common sense would prohibit one reading things they don't agree with is a little strange; unless you are in agreement that your actions on this thread clearly show you have no common sense. By your definition of it.
I meant to say, you can read or not read what I keyboard. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
Why do you keep going on about this?
Honestly? I try to be nice about the silliness of belief in God. I shouldn't. I should probably comment on the delusional and ridiculous idea of believing a cosmic power would micromanage anyone's existence. But, I do think that many believers are probably very nice people who haven't taken the time to think.
I can accept that. Thank you for your straight forwardness. Like someone said, to be here means you have to be tough. Honesty is always the best policy.
Yes, but the thinking person would actually stop and call bs as they understand only too well that ropes just don't appear out of nowhere after praying. Ry is obviously lying.
He is not the type. He was not lying. Perhaps it was a coincidence that the yellow ropes were there, but he does not lie.
Atheists don't ignore the inner voice at all. We understand it's a function of the brain and thought.
I could repeat that a million times.
-that is how convinced I am.
I feel sorry for anyone who does not understand. I wish others would back me up here.
Kathryn, we all have inner dialogue, it's a product of the brain. Super ego, ego and id as described by Freud.
Take credit when it due. It's due, good job.
Flattery will get you everywhere...
The only reason others do not back me up is because they are smart enough to not throw pearls to swine
to pretend like everyone who does not believe as they do is
full of it.
Still smillin' and
just bein' friendly.
You tempt me to bark back-
I have fallen for it.
Well I suppose you are doing no harm to others so I'll leave you be.
I appreciate this alot. You actually owe me an apology. I was willing to believe your miracle but you have mercilessly discounted all the examples that I have given in the past. It was very discouraging to me. To believe in God makes me happy. Why should you try to talk me out of believing in God?
No one commented on my miracle about the spider... I have no idea why that spider was newly dead. No idea. If I want to attribute it to the intervention of an angel that is surely not bad. My daughter was not bitten by the black widow. She certainly could have been!
Okay, If it is an apology you want then you should get it.
I'm truly am sorry if I in any way offended you.
Yes, and let's just ignore all the people who have been bitten by black widow spiders so that we can fallaciously make up stories of gods intervening.
Logically, one can assume this:
Sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't, according to Karma of the individual involved.
Like I say, I think he has his own reasons and will for us.
I Would like to prove it with further examples but, I don't want to offend anyone.
If others would chime in here with examples of miracles which have occurred in their lives, that would be great. The only reason they don't is that they're not participating on HubPages Forums.
So, what can I do to state the case for the existence of the ocean of God's spirit which sometimes intervenes and sometimes doesn't?
Uh, there's no logic in that whatsoever. Magic yes, logic no.
It doesn't matter if folks wish to tell us all about their experiences and their beliefs it was a miracle/magic. It's still just pure baloney.
Absolutely nothing. We already understand it's baloney.
"Baloney" is a rude, hurtful word. You want to hurt God-believers.
What does pointing out ones beliefs being equivalent to baloney have anything to do with hurting "God-believers"?
We are not children here, Kathryn, despite the fact some act like it.
He said miracles are "baloney". He could have used a more emotionally neutral explanation... like, "are not provable, therefore are not believable."
Why would you come to a debate forum where you know there are atheists if you do not want people to try to talk you out of your delusion?
The only other reason I can think of is a misinformed idea that you can convert atheists with tales of miracles.
No one has come to your door saying god is dead, You walked in here of your own will. Notice I didn't say it was free? And now you want someone to apologize because you have doubts?
Dear Kathryn. The only one talking you out of a belief in god is you. If you do not want to have doubts don't set yourself up for getting them.
Some people are not meant to be on atheist vs Christian forums. If you are hurt that easily I suggest you rethink your participation. I say that with kindness and understanding. You need a thick skin for these places.
This did not have to become a God versus No God forum. It seems that atheists come on in to pillage the joy and the belief in God that the God believers have. I come in to counter-balance atheists for the benefit of those who have the love and joy of God in their hearts. I defend the heart. You defend the mind.
They can be one. Heart and mind. They should be one.
Why tear the two apart? I am not weak and I will defend the right to believe in God.
When one ADDs the sense of logic (that an atheist has) to the sense of devotion to God (that others have,) it's helpful... but, it's accepted better when one has a contributing attitude, rather than a dismissive attitude.
I can't prove the existence of God to an atheist and nor should I. Likewise, I do not believe an atheist should try to DISSUADE another from believing in God. Atheists should indeed have their own forum.
I really thought this would be a Forum about sharing beliefs in God and proofs to the existence of God.
Thanks for nothing, atheists.
In fact I, for one, politely show you to the door.
Oh so you think these forums were made for Christians? lol.. That's funny. The name of the forum is religion and philosophy. It isn't specific about what religion and I'm a philosopher who happens to be an atheist.
If the author of the forum specified that no atheists were allowed I'd respect that. But no such specification was made. In fact I had a nice chat with the author of this particular subject last night. So I'm afraid your ire is misplaced here.
Perhaps you should petition the admin of Hub Pages to create a forum just for Christians with no atheists allowed. I dare say you all believe such wildly different things that you may not be able to come to agreement on exactly what a christian is, but I leave that to you to work out.
You can't prove to me that a god does exist because you can't even prove it to yourself. You need to take it on faith. But if you are telling me that you know for sure a god exists without a doubt and with certainty, you are lying to me and to yourself. And yet this is what Christians do every day.
And as you have heard before, I am sure, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You are making the claim so it is in fact up to you to prove it if you want anyone to take you seriously, and yet you admit you can't.
I on the other hand can't prove it doesn't exist just like I can't prove spaghetti monsters from beyond do not exist. Things that do not show up to be known as real in some way can not be proven to be real, and no one can prove the absence of something that could be hiding somewhere.
But Christians do try to prove their god exists all the time. They tell us to look around, what created all this if not a god? It did not all create itself.
Of course that argument does not wash, though it's a nice try.
In fact there is no evidence. even circumstantial that indicates that a god must exist.
So all you would be sharing are speculative ideas that you think are proof of god. And then which god? There are so many, and yours is particularly distasteful in so many ways.
Why would we not want to save you from what we can only see as delusion? Just as you are told to spread the good word and just as you believe we are all lost, and yet you all try.
In answer to the question why should an atheist try to dissuade anyone from believing:, why should any christian be entitled to try to persuade anyone to believe? The door and the complaint swings both ways.
Why should I have to listen to Christians telling me the good news, when it is not news at all, but 2000 year old spam? I"m not talking in here, I'm talking in real time, real life.
I don't think the idea of humans murdering their god and then profiting from it is good news in the first place. But that's neither here nor there. I suppose.
Keep it to yourselves already. Beliefs should be a private thing. It should not be in public schools or in politics unless you live in a theocracy. It should not determine what jobs people can get or what places they are accepted in to.
I'll tell you what. I won't tell you mine if you don't tell me yours. Deal?
Now the matters of the heart. By heart you mean the subconscious where emotions come from? There is no heart and mind separation. It is all mind.
Yes. I fully endorse the idea that logic should and must be used to train the subconscious. In that way the subconscious will use it when we need it.
Mortality is logical as is compassion. But the problem is that unless we train the subconscious to be aware of that, emotions can run away with us.
They exist for two reasons. One is to motivate us to do something to fulfill our needs, and the other is to tell us what needs we have. Logic can help us fulfill our needs and prevent us from being confused and afraid.
But mix logic with belief? Belief and in particular: faith are the giving up of logic. Once you have a logical mind you reject faith as superstition. Belief is not required in anything and the fact that your religion tells you that your god demands it tells me volumes.
The logical mind needs factual data in order to assess probability. To invest faith in speculation is useless and unwise. To invest faith in facts is redundant. You accept facts if they have they have proven to be facts. You do not invest faith in them. It is not required.
The best one can say about a speculative idea is: Maybe it is true and maybe it isn't. If it is an outlandish claim you can gauge it to being probably not true.
You can base opinions on facts, but opinions are not beliefs unless you allow them to become beliefs. That's a mistake.
What is it you would like atheists to contribute? We do not believe what you believe. In fact I believe nothing at all. You, on the other hand believe in the Christian form of god and you skew all your other beliefs to that one.
We atheist are here to test you. You believe and you try to prove the existence of the object of your belief by telling us about miracles etc. We then point out to you alternate explanations for your experience. Consider your belief to be in a trial by fire. It's the only way to get the feedback you need to come to logical conclusions, and eventually perhaps drop your faith. Without us you would just be listening to your own voice and preaching to the choir. What fun would that be?
Again, how and why would you expect us to have a contributing attitude in the way you mean it when we do not remotely believe what you believe? Astounding.
You will have to accept us as we are, fight us tooth and nail, ignore us, or choose something in between. I'm afraid we are here to stay.
And for your own sake grow a thick skin and don't take anything personally.
There is now a forum just for atheists. Could you state all this there? I thought I might, but I might need permission from you, anyway.
Well I said that perhaps you should create a forum just for Christians, not atheists. Why would I want to state all this in a form for atheists? Who would my audience be? Other atheists? They probably mostly all agree with me. What fun would that be?
Besides which I was talking to you. Are you saying you will reply there? lol.... You can do it here. It's ok.
Never the less, you have my permission to use my words and post them where you like. But I am more interested in your considered rather than emotional reply.
I love the blurb at the beginning of your profile by the way, and I agree with it completely. Respect is important in life. But these forums are not about real life. They are debate forums. In a debate one is not out to give respect as much as they are in getting at ideas and passing on truthful opinions.
Another persons real opinion sometimes sounds like disrespect. But I am more interested in truth than I am in anything else.
You can say what you like to me. I won't take it personally. Truth often hurts, but it is the only way sometimes to grow and learn. I learn best by a trial of fire.
The best thing to do is make a real separation in your mind between the real outside world and these forums. I'm a Canadian for goodness sake. In real life I would never bother saying the things I say here. You'd love me. I'd be saying sorry to you all the time.
But not here. Here is the last bastion of freedom of ideas. It's been that way since the Internet began in the 1980s, and believe me, I've participated in forms like these for as long as they have been around.
For your own sake, grow a thicker skin or return to the real world.
What do you mean grow a thick skin?
Anyway. All is okay with me and what you like to post, as long as you are not dismissive. Questioning. yes. dismissive and ridiculing, no.
I don't think that's too much to ask.
No it is not. By grow a thick skin I mean you really have to see past what you perceive to be an insult to what is really being said. Realize it is not about you. Do not take things personally.
People like yourself, intelligent, compassionate, and reasonable are collateral damage in these places. There is a war of sorts raging here and it has been that way for a long time. A war between atheists and fundamentalists. But all Christians get tared with the same brush.
However, if you take it for what it is you can learn things here. Mostly about yourself. Some people find it overwhelming and can't stay. Others eventually learn the ropes and make wonderful contributions.
I am not around here much anymore. I only occasionally come here to see if I can find inspiration to write a new hub when I'm not sure what to write about next. But I hope you stay. Good lick.
Once you really find inner peace, nothing can shake it.
Why do you hope I stay. I deserve to suffer?
Seems like a personal insult to me. Who would wish staying in a hopeless place like the forums and as you mentioned suffer "collateral damage" on anyone?
I still say things can change for the better. politeness could indeed be implemented in the forums. And it is supposed to be a friendly place as stated in the HP rules..
I guess there are no methods for policing it. Same as with the corporations/government and unchecked greed.
Boundaries can save us!
But, only if they are implemented.
But very few people want it to be. There is something to be said for free expression and not having to worry about being too PC. We have enough contrivances in the real world hiding the truth about how people really feel and why.
Only you can make yourself suffer. Only you can find real ways of stopping that suffering. Don't blame the forums,
You said, "I hope you stay."
Why? How can one not take personally what was directed at one?
I will have to work on this...
or stay out of the forums.
Again, because I have seen a lot of people like yourself get used to this environment and learn from it. But if it is really something you hate, it's all up to you.
I guess I just like seeing people test themselves to the limit.
I understand. I am too idealistic. I am a wimp. It is not that I hate it. It just doesn't seem fair to the OP. Did she know this would happen? I suppose so...
Thanks for the insights.
I appreciate it.
So, I will take my self and go.
Since I have too much "self "... or ego.
Kathryn, if there is one thing I've learned from the religious forums it's that the faithful and the atheist do not think alike. What is perfectly obvious and true in every sense is ignored as total nonsense by the other side of the fence. And it works both ways, too - it's not limited to either side of the equation.
The trick, then, is to understand not what is being said, but the thought process and reasoning that produced the statement/conclusion. If you find that process useful and reasonable then the conclusion is probably of value to you. If not, then the conclusion is probably useless as well. Not necessarily wrong, but useless to you as it is derived from a different set of precepts and reasoning.
And no, you should never, ever take offense in these forums. It's usually not meant that way and if it is the speaker isn't worth the time it takes to read the post anyway.
You guys are just arguing over words. I already said I meant "direct intervention by God". Call that whatever you want. I chose a common term that is understandable by many. Next time I will just say directly what I mean so there will be less confusion.
No, we're pointing out that miracles are indistinguishable from magic.
But, we both know that is obviously not true.
I am concerned with how we treat each other in this forum and all forums.
Why can't we all get along on HP. Atheists can think the way they do and God-believers can think the way they do. A forum can be a place where others are treated respectfully as individuals with feelings and sensitivities behind his/her pecking fingers!
What is wrong with being polite and respectful here as anywhere else?
Just because of the word, forum? Debaters don't have to be dismissive to one another.
Because you believers want us all to accept your irrational beliefs and how your god wants to tell us all how to behave and act. It is the believer who is the cause of the discontent and conflict and why we can't all get along.
Because your religion and your beliefs are neither.
No one in this forum has done that to you. NO ONE!
Right? I was referring to how we treat each other in these forums. Actually, we are supposed to be on friendly terms with one another according to stated HP rules. When you tell me that I " fallaciously" make up stories, that is not friendly. I am a fellow human being and not an automaton.
http://slartyobrian.hubpages.com/hub/At … ion_Forums
This might help.
Please show us in the HP rules where it says we must be friendly?
Believers always make up stories, which they fallaciously attempt to tell us is reality. If they were 'friendly', they wouldn't do that in the first place, they would be honest, instead.
Well, I actually got booted off HB Forums for responding to YOU and RADMAN who I felt were verbally ganging up on me. Addressing my disbelief that no one would come to my defense, I actually used words like sheep and maybe even worse So, for 17 hours I wore the HP dunce hat, sitting in the corner, contemplating the badness of my blatantly audacious keyboarding.
But whatever... I will rise to the occasion and be really sneaky with my bark backs.
So, Look out, A Troubled Man.
I took a look at Revelation. God's a stoner, then?
Zelkiiro, Do you really believe in Vishnu?
There are many spiritually scientific aspects to Hinduism. In fact the Book of Revelations is in harmony with the Sankhya philosophy in India.
For instance, the seven golden candlesticks refer to the chakras. These are the seven light centers in the body. I only mention this because Revelations is all symbology which we westerners cannot understand. (In fact, Jesus did go to India. There are records of his visit there. People tend to not accept this fact, however.)
Nah, he's pretty terrible. I tend to go with Helel or Yoshitsune instead, though I sometimes use Ishtar, too.
Sometimes an anecdote about a spider, is just an anecdote about a spider.
This short story of care told us and lesson for us that how much our family is important. God Bless You and you did the great work.
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