I am a Preterist Universalist

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   SwordofManticorEposted 11 years ago

   Preterism is a friend to the universalist. If Matt 25 and Revelation refer to past events rather than future ones, there are no texts left for the proponents of endless torment to use?

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      Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      And what if they refer to future events?

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         SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         The question I asked was if they were past events, what scripture is left to support endless torment.

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            Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            There are no scriptures that point to endless torment only to the inevitability of death with no chance of Resurrection.
            
            The things in revelation are happening now, the end days.

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               SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I totaly disagree. One, Christ will drag all mankind to Him, and two, The end days prophecy is a false prophecy. Revelations was written just before the destruction of Jerusalem. The evidence is found in the book.

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                  Silverspeederposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Jerusalem still exsists?
                  
                  And the Devil and his followers will be cast down into the pit?
                  
                  Wars and reports of wars, famine, pestilence and earthquakes?
                  
                  The love of the greater number will cool off?
                  
                  All these things are happening now, you can't deny things are worse than they have ever been and all starting from 1914.

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      Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I am a preterist when it comes to the seven seal judgments. From that point on I am Historists concerning the trumpet and bowl judgments.

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         SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Then that makes you a partial-preterist, I may be one as well.

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            Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Had company come over ... sorry about the delay
            The only thing that makes sence to me is that the seals were inflicted upon the Hebrew Nation, the trumpet s were upon the Roman Empire from approx 538 thru apptox 900 AD. The bowls began around 1240ish with the bubonic plague.
            The seventh trumpet and seventh bowl have yet to have been played out yet.
            
            edit   gota go to H Depot back in a little bit.

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               SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Actually, I believe that these events writen about already occurd AD70, as the temple was still standing. The harlot in revelations is none other than the city of Jerusalem. In the OT, there are many verses where God calls her a prostitute and harlot.

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                  Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually, I believe that these events writen about already occurd AD70, as the temple was still standing. The harlot in revelations is none other than the city of Jerusalem. In the OT, there are many verses where God calls her a prostitute and harlot.
                  Well I think that the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus apeared in heaven after his death,the fifth happened when Pompae was destroyed in 62 with a huge earthquake and then 17 years later when Vesuvious errupted in 69. This is also when the tenth king (the ten horns of the fourth Beast as described in Daniel apeare).   The 69th week was finished when Jesus apeared to John.
                    when the Little Horn (Hadrian) came to his end. Daniel 11:44 and 12:1 was fulfilled.(happened in 138 AD when the 14th king belonging to the fourth beast came to his end)
                  
                  Gotta run again  back in an hr.

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                     SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     What about the sixth horn written in Rev 17? there was only one Roman emperor in the Julian line that persecuted Christians, and that was Nero. His name in the Hebrew gematria adds up to 666?

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                        Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        I can’t adequately explain this train of thought as well as I can think it .. but ??
                        I think that these seven kings (rev 17:10) are speaking of the seven kingdoms which had recieved and will recieve dominion over the holy land; "five has fallen",  Syria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire .  “five have fallen and one is and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh he must continue a short space.  I think this would have been the Holy Roman Empire also known as the Byzantine Empire.
                        The seventh would be the rise of the Islamic nations. Their control lasted until the end of WWII. 
                        The beast that was and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven and goeth into perdition.       Many theologians perceive the eighth to be some sort of resurrection of the Roman Empire. 
                        V7. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth
                        V15  the waters which thou sawest are peoples, and nations and tongues. … this is why I do not believe that the city where the woman sitteth is Jerusalem. For Jerusalem has never held power of any kind over nations. I think the woman would have to be Rome at least until Vatican City became a nation of itself, which in the minds of many people is still Rome except for the technicality of it being a nation of itself.
                        Few people is any at all will agree with this concept yet I will continue to hold it.
                        
                        
                        I think that these seven kings (rev 17:10) are speaking of the seven kingdoms which had recieved and will recieve dominion over the holy land. "five has fallen"

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                           SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           What you fail to see is that the 6th king was already present when the book was written, because it says in Rev 17, the sixth king was there at that time. "10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come;"
                           
                           The seventh king was not there yet.

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                              Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              i apologize for my mistake, My brain is filled with fog this AM.
                              I was recalling from a memory from long ago. how does it work if we begin with Egypt?  I don't remember if Egypt actually occupied what later became known as the holy land or not.
                              Egypt, Syria, Babylon, Persia, Greece;  then the Byzantine (for a short time, less than 480 years),           then the Islamic nations.

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                                 SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Jerami, what was the purpose of the book of revelations? What does it say in Rev 1:1? "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must SOON TAKE PLACE." Not 2000 years later my friend. The Roman emperors are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero who was emperor just before the fall of Jerusalem. If the book was written before AD70, then no event was more horrific than Jerusalems fall, but if it was written after AD70, The saints of that time would profit nothing by it.

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                                    Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    Something I find interesting is that in C. 5:6  the lamb of God suddenly (right then) appears in heaven looking all bloody as if he had just gotten off the cross. He just then arrives in heaven and (C. 6) begins opening the seals.  After the sixth seal was opened there was a multitude seen in heaven who had come out of the great tribulation, this does not identify this event as "THE  Resurrection"!  but simply the gathering together of these souls.    After the seventh seal is opened,  Nothing Happens   except that there is a passing of time  recorded before the seven trumpets are handed out. This is something worth a lot of consideration. I believe the seven seal judgments was handed out to that Hebrew Nation which ceased to exist in 138 AD.  That by 138 AD all prophesy that had been given to that Nation concerning that Nation had been completed. 
                                       And then there is silence. Meaning some time later ... the seven trumpets begin being sounded in chronological order.

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Me too. However I'm not convinced by Revelation. Perhaps I'll write a hub one day.

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         Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         It was Revelation that convinced me the most, but only after I began examining in depth the timeline comparison of prophetic time and that time which passes in what we consider to be real time.
         62 weeks is 568 of our years. the way I understand Daniel 9:26.  A week in prophesy would about 9.166 of our years. A day = 1.31 of our years. A Time = 470 years. 42 months = 1648 years.
         
         Whether this application is correct or not, When we apply these equations every time these periods of time are mentioned in prophesy, The story seems to make some sense.

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            Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Other than Daniel 9:26 is there some good literature on this method of time and dating?

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               SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Here is a web site Eric. i found it very interesting.
               
               http://www.christianevidences.org/messe … -70ad.html

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                  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I was hoping to find the graph and citations for "A day = 1.31 years".
                  The site was interesting though. Thanks

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                     Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     I wrote a hub years ago by that name which gives my understanding as to how this equation comes into affect.

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               Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Jerami, I'm curious. A time= 470 yrs? A day in prophecy= 1.31 yrs.? A week= 9.166 yrs? 42 mos.=1648yrs? Where/who may I ask, do you get this info from?

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                  Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I came up with it myself by simply reading the words which are written in the Book of Daniel. These words are supposed to have been spoken by Gabriel who is said to be Gods Messenger Angel and sence we are not supposed to apply any sort of private interpretation to prophesy in scripture, I take these words at face value.
                  V.1  identifies  the year this vision came to Daniel to be around 538 BC.  Also see Ezra 1st chapter.
                  V23  Gabriel tells Daniel that the Commandment has gone forth.
                  V25 & 26 .. from the going forth  of the commandment  it shall be 69 weeks unto messiah The Prince and after 26 weeks they shall kill the Messiah.
                  If 568 years pass until Jesus in killed on the cross and if Jesus was the messiah then 568 years in prophesy would have to be equal to 62 weeks on earth, You have to read these verses uninfluenced by previously learned interpretations. Read them unhindered by preconceived ideas which has been taught.  A week would be 9.16 of our years.   At that time, each month in the Hebrew calendar has 30 days. So 42 months is 1260 days.      30 days X 42 = 1260 days or 180 weeks. 180 X 9.16 = 1648.8 of our years. When the word "a Time" is referred to in prophesy this is 52.2 prophetic weeks = 478 years.. 
                  I got the definition of a time from C 12:7 & 11   The angel sait it shall be for a time times and an half ..and Daniel says  What  ? I don’t understand (??)  So the angel rephrased his statement and said it shall be yet for 1290 days.
                  So a time, times and an half is the same as 1290 days.  When we continue with the math we see that a “Time”  is 52;2 prophetic weeks the same number of  weeks as in one of our years. A time would be 478 of our years.   The 42 months that the beast was given in Rev. 13 would be = to 1648 of our years.
                  Seems like simple analytical deduction to me.  But I’m no expert. I took a decade trying to prove this theory wrong and couldn’t.  The only thing I proved is that  if this is true? there are many many falsely interpreted verses been taught is Church.
                    Now reverse the calander counting backwards from todays date and see what was going on at that time ???

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                     Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Jerami, I'm a little confused. You say a time is equal to 478 yrs. and that a time, times, and half a time equals 1260 days/years(chap.12:7,11)? 478 days/1yr (12 mos) + 956 days/ yrs ( times=24 mos) + 239 days/yrs (1/2 time=6mos) = 1673 days/yrs. This would eliminate chap.12:7,11 as being anywhere near being accurate. As far as Rev.13, time=360 days/yrs (12 mos) + times= 720 days/yrs (24 mos) + 1/2 time= 180 days/yrs (6 mos)= 1260 days/yrs or 42mos. To really understand this prophecy you may need too think about 2300 days/years. This is what Daniel had problems with (verse 8) The day for a year principle numbers among its supporters such names as Augustine, Tichonius, Primasius, Andreas, the Venerable Bede, Ambrosius, Ansbertus, Berengaud, and Bruno Astensis, besides the leading modern expositors. But what is more conclusive than all else is the fact that the prophecies have actually been fulfilled on this principle. This will be found in the prophecy of the 70 wks throughout and all the prophetic periods of Daniel 7 and 12 and Rev. 9, 12, 13. You have actually given me inspiration to write a hub on this matter (70 wks) Check it out and lets exchange views on Rev and Daniel.

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                        Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        As I said before; I'm just taking what Gabriel said to Daniel as a true statement and disregarding what any one else tells me. I'm reading what Gabriel said to be the Gospel truth,  forgetting everything else that I think I know. Then read what Gabriel said to Daniel.
                        If we don't take what Gods messenger ANGEL says literally, then we can’t take any thing else literally either.
                        Gabriel said in 538 BC (give or take a few months) that in 62 weeks they are going to kill the Messiah.
                        In either AD,  26, 30, or 33 Jesus died.   If he was the Messiah, Gabriel’s prophesy was fulfilled approx 568 years later. So a week in prophesy has to be approx 9.16 of our years.  If we are to believe the Angel of God.
                        Really think about that for a moment.  ………….  Now If we can’t take him literally what can we?
                        62 weeks = 568 years
                        A week = 9.16 of our years
                        42 months = 1260 days = 180 weeks = approx 1648 of our year.
                        A time, times and a half = 1290 days = approx 184 weeks = approx 1685 years
                        A time = approx. 480 of our years.
                        Anything that any so called expert tells me is going to have to fall in line with what this statement above or I won’t believe him.
                        It is written that a day is as a year to God …  and the other way around.  God is timeless they say, So why take that statement as gospel, that we should use a day for a year method in comparing our time and prophetic time. That would be like comparing apples to cucumbers or watermelons.

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                           Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           In chap8 the manner in which Gabe introduces himself shows that he has come to complete some unfinished mission. We agree on this.This can be nothing less than to carry out the instruction to make this man "understand the vision", as recorded in Dan.8. He says ,"I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding".  As the charge still still rested upon him to make Dan. understand, and as he had explained to Dan. in chap8 all that he could then bear, and yet he did not understand the vision, he now comes to resume his work and complete his mission. You and I are still on the same page. As soon as Dan. began his fervent supplication, the commandment came forth; for Gabe to visit Dan., and impart to him the requisite information. The command came forth for Gabe to interpret the vision to Dan. "Understand the matter", he says to Dan. What matter? Evidently that which he did not before understand in the last verse of Dan.8. Agreed? "Consider the vision". What vision? Not the  interpretation of Neb's image, nor the vision of Dan.7, for there is no difficulty with either of these; but the vision of Dan.8, in reference to which his mind was filled with astonishment and lack of understanding. "I am come to show thee", also said the angel. The burden of Dan's petition was in respect to the repairing of the desolations of the sanctuary, which lay in ruins. He had undoubtedly drawn the conclusion that the time when the end of the 70 yrs captivity came was the time for fulfillment of what the angel had said in regard to the cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 2300 days.  Vs24 70 wks. These are the first words the angel uttered to Dan. in imparting to him that instruction which he came to give. Why did he abruptly introduce a period of time? We again refer to chap8.Some parts of the vision were at the time clearly explained. That could not be the problem. In that vision four prominent thinds are brought to view: the ram, the he-goat, the little horn, and the period of 2300 days. The symbols were explained, but nothing was said respecting theperiod of time. This must therefore have been the point that he did not understand. There are four events whichcan be taken as answering to the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. 1) the decree of Cyrus for the rebuilding of the temple, 536bc.(Ezra1:1-4). 2) The decree of Darius for the prosecution of that work which had been hindered, 519bc (Ezra6:1-12). 3) The  decree of Artaxerxes to Ezra, 457bc (Ezra7). 4) The commission to Nehemiah from the same king in his 20th year, 444bc (Neh.2). With the first two of these decrees, the 70 prophetic weeks, or 490 literal yrs, would fall many years short of reaching even to the Christian era.These two decrees made a beginning of the work. They were preliminary to what was afterward accomplished. Now reckoning from the commission of Nehemiah, 444bc, the 69 wks, or 483 yrs, which were to extend to the Mashyach would bring us to a.d.40; but Yahusha was baptized by John 13 yrs before (S.Bliss, Analysis of Sacred Chronology, pp180,182; Karl Weiseler, A Chronological Synopsis of the Four Gospels, pp.164-247). I know to you, so called expert opinion means nothing, but, to me it beats the heck out of guessing (no sarcasm intended). Acording to this calculation, the midst of the last or 70th wk, which is marked by the crucifixion, is placed in 44 a.d., but the cruxifixion took place in 31a.d., 13 yrs previous. And lastly, the 70 wks, or 490 yrs, dating from the 20th year of Artaxerxes, would extend to a.d.47, with absolutely nothing to mark their termination. So if that be the year, and the grant to Nehemiah the event, from which to reckon, the prophecy has proven a failure. It is evident that the decree granted to Ezra in the 7th year of Artaxerxes, 457a.d., is the point from which to date the 70 wks. That was the going forth of the decree in the sense of the prophecy. The two previous decrees were preparatory and preliminary to this. Indeed they are required by Ezra as parts of it, the three being taken as one great whole. For in Ezra6:14 we read: "They builded , and finished it, according to the commandment  of  the Alahym of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia". It will be noticed that the decrees of these three kings are spoken of as one, showing they are all reckoned  as a unit, the different decrees being but the successive steps by which the work was accomplished. This decree could not be said to have "gone forth" as intended by the prophecy, until the last permission which the prophecy required was embodied in the decree, and clothed with the authority of the empire. This point was reached in the grant to Ezra, but not before. Here the decree assumed the proportions and covered the ground demanded by the prophecy, and from this point its "going forth" should be dated. Will these dates harmonize if we reckon from the decree to Ezra (457a.d.)? I've already written a hub here, so to keep from boring anyone, any longer, I'll write that hub

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                              Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              First let me say No disrespect intended, however I am (strongly) explaining why I respectfully disagree. 
                                  I pondered this exact arguement for quite some time many years ago; which of these commandment is the one associated.with the building of the temple in Daniel 9:25??
                              Was it the one that Alexander issued in 538ish to begin building the temple ? or
                              Was it a later decree to resume the building of the temple or another commandment to build a wall around the city?
                              My arguement would be that this is speaking of when the commandment first came forth to build it.            Not a commandment to pick up your tools and finish it.  But we could debate this until the cows come home and not come to agreement.    BUT to add just a little bit of weight to my side  Then  when we read Isiaha 44:24  thru 28  .. 
                              I AM the the lord that maketh all things
                                                       That frustrateth ...
                                                        That confirmith ...
                                                        That saith to the deep ,,,
                                                        That saith to Cyrus, he is my shephard,and shall perform all my pleasure, even saying to JerusalemThou shalt be built, and to the temple,Thy foundation shall be laid.
                                                     
                                     Ezra 1:2  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persa, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of earth  (poor translation of the origional hebrew word "earth")  ...  and he hath charged (or commanded) me to build him a house in Jerusalem which is in Judah.
                                  Daniel 9:25 says, from the time the commandment goes forth to build ... it shall be 69 weeks unto Messiah The Prince   (period, end of statement)   and then it says the street and the wall will be built in troublous times.
                                looking at the structure of that paragraph, this statement concerning the street and wall could as easily have been in another paragraph or chapter for that matter as to how it pertains to the origional statement.
                                 Gabriel says that he had just left from being with Cyrus and has now come to give Daniel understanding concerning what has just transpired. The Commandment has gone forth a couple of weeks ago when you started praying.

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                                 Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 I see no disrespect Jerami. Just two people exchanging their views on a particular matter. The main focus of the prophecy is on the 2300 days, the cleansing of the sanctuary. This was the only part Dan. did not understand. Gabe was sent to interpret this time frame for him. According to your calculations (I'm assuming you mean 568 years from 538B.C.) that would place the crucifixion around 68 a.d. How can this be? It just does not add up. Starting point 457B.C. "In the 15th year of Darius Nothus ended the first 7 wks of the 70 wks of Dan, prophecy. For then restoration of the church and state of the Israelites in Jerusalem and Judea was fully finished, in the last act of reformation, which is recorded in the 13th chap of Nehemiah, from the 23rd verse to the end of the chap., just 49 yrs after it had been first begun by
                                 ezra in the 7th year of Artaxerxes". This was 408b.c.So far we find harmony. Applying the measuring rod a little further, 69 wks, or 483 years, were to extend to Mashyach. Dating from 457b.c., they end in 27a.d. What event then occured? Luke informs us: "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Yahusha also was baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Ruach descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him..." Luke3:21,22. After this, Yahusha came "preaching the gospel of the kingdom of Yahuah, and saying, The time is fufilled." Mark1:14,15. The time here mentioned  must have been some specific, definite, and predicted period; but no prophetic period can be found terminating then except the 69 wks of the prophecy of Dan, which were to extend to Mashyach.The Mashyach had now come, and with His own lips He announced the termination of that period which was to be marked by His manifestation. Here, again,  is indisputable harmony. But further, the Mashyach was to confirm rhe covenant with many for one week. This would be the last week of the 70, or the last 7 years of the 490. In the midst of the week, the prophecy informs us, He should cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.  These Hebrew ordinances, pointing to the death of Mashyach, could only cease at the stake. There they did virtually come to an end when the veil of the temple was rent at the crucifixion, though the outward observance was kept up until the destruction of Jerusalem,70a.d. To simplify matters, 2300 yrs, the longest prophetic period in the Book, was to reach, according to Daniel's prophecy, "from the going forth of the commamdment to restore and to build
                                 Jerusalem," to the time for the cleansing of the sanctuary (Dan.8:14). Alexander? What did he have to do with this? Cyrus gave the decree to rebuild the temple in 536b.c. (Ezra1:1-4). Why is it that most (I can't say all) scholars acknowledge and use a year for a day in prophecy, a time =1 year (12 mos), a times = 2 yrs (24 mos), a 1/2 time = 1/2 year (6 mos), all this based on scripture (BTW. a thousand years to Yahuah is like a day) when used, match perfectly with the dates and time lines of prophecy and you use figures that don't even come close, but yet you say their interpretations and figures are wrong? I do understand that universalists believe most interpretations are wrong, but wow, so I guess I just answered my question Yes, we will respectfully agree to disagree

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      janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      revelation refers to internal individual events

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         Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         It may refer to many things but lets not forget 2nd Peter 1:20 ...    Knowing this first that no prophesy of scripture is of any private interpretation.
              And yet that is exactly what has been going on for so long that these interpretations are embeded into our subconcious that we do not read these prophesy unblemished from these interpretations which has infiltrated even the teaching institutions.  and we are unaware.

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            janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            revelation isn't a prophesy
            
            it's a badly worded description of alchemy

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               Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I could be wrong?  I won't debate the issue, but I will express my opinion till the sun goes down if any one wants to hear it.  And I'll express it once in a while even when they don't.  If anyone can explain to me where or why my opinion is incorect I welcome being corrected. But I believe that prophesy is exactly what the book of Revelation is, ... prophesy.

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                  janesixposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Nothing wrong with sharing your opinion. I have mine, you have yours, no biggie.

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   SwordofManticorE wrote:
   I totaly disagree. One, Christ will drag all mankind to Him, and two, The end days prophecy is a false prophecy. Revelations was written just before the destruction of Jerusalem. The evidence is found in the book.
   =================
   
   If John was on the Isle of Patmos at the time, these visions had to have been received before 97AD and after around 86, Don't remember for sure the exact year  when this prison was opened. Upon closer examination it is believed that 96 AD was when they were received, cause the prison was closed down in 97.
   I think this represents the 69th week as described in Daniel?  Upon being released from Patmos, John returned to preaching as described in Rev. 10.  The last recorded date for John to have still been alive was 109 AD which did not mention his death.  At this is what I understand these facts to be.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The many "coming soon" and "at hand" passages (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6-20) only make sense if events matching the symbolism of Revelation were not too far in the future. The Jewish themes would make no sense after 70 A.D. - there was nothing left of the Jewish state.
      
      The Beast (which most if not all scholars agree represents Rome) was ruled by its 6th head ("head" = "king" see: 17:10) which was already in existence in John's day. Of the 7 heads (kings) only one was left - by 95 A.D. Rome was long past its 7th Caesar.
      
      A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.).
      
      There were still Judaizers in the church at that time (Rev. 2:9, 3:9) - impossible after 70A.D.
      
      The temple is apparently still standing in chapter 11.
      
      If the temple had already been destroyed, one would expect at least one mention of it somewhere.
      
      Revelation 2:2 shows that there were other apostles around - yet it is believed that all but John were dead by 70 A.D.
      
      Irenaeus' statement regarding Domitian's reign is difficult to interpret and based on a secondary source. In the same passage he also mentions "ancient copies" of Revelation in existence which makes little sense if they were only a few years old.
      
      Evidence for a massive persecution by Domitian (81-96 A.D.) is lacking.
      
      The only time there were only 7 churches in Asia was the early 60's. In the 90s there were alot more than 7.
      
      When you research both Christian and judean history, it all starts to make alot more sence.
      
      John was told he must prophesy again before kings (10:11) . . . he would have been over 90 if the late date is correct. Stories of his actions after being released from Patmos are difficult to reconcile with an aged man

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         Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Good morning it's 7:AM just poured my coffee and reading this. Should think about an answer for a while but .?...   I’ll just run with it . 
         = - = - =
         The many "coming soon" and "at hand" passages (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6-20) only make sense if events matching the symbolism of Revelation were not too far in the future. The Jewish themes would make no sense after 70 A.D. - there was nothing left of the Jewish state.
         = - = - =
         Me ,  The following is Just My Opinion
         When Jesus said to write the things you have seen, the things which are and the things which shall be here after!  I take this to mean that these things which Jesus will be showing John in visions of things he has seen,  and   things which were currently happening Here& after  (now and later).                    It seems obvious to me when reading 5: 5&6 that immediately upon arriving in heaven after the crucifixion, Jesus begins opening the seals. (30 AD) He opens the first five seals immediately. When he opened the sixth seal there was a Great earthquake, This great earthquake happened in 62 AD, destroying Pompeii, for the next 17 years smaller earthquakes in that area became commonplace. Then in 79 AD Mt Vesuvius erupts. This is a key component concerning both the sixth seal and the 10 headed beast described in Daniel.  Within 30 days of each other Vesuvius erupts AND   Titus becomes the tenth horn.
         Concerning the fourth beast, and after the tenth horn another rises replacing three horns which come after the first ten. All 14 kings of the fourth beast has to come into power before these prophesy can be fulfilled. In Daniel when the little horn comes to his end (11:45) At that time Michael stands up for the children of Daniels people.
         And when the seventh seal is opened, nothing happens … except for there being silence in heaven for a short period of time. And Then after some time passes, the trumpets are handed out to the seven angels. All this does is to signify that the seven seals and the seven trumpets are not connected in any way.
         ===============
         SwordofManticorE wrote
         The Beast (which most if not all scholars agree represents Rome) was ruled by its 6th head ("head" = "king" see: 17:10) which was already in existence in John's day. Of the 7 heads (kings) only one was left - by 95 A.D. Rome was long past its 7th Caesar.
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         ME
         I believe this ten headed beast (Rev. 13) is an entirely different entity than the one described in Daniel. However their descriptions are so similar that they have to be related in some way. The same can be said for the one described in Rev. 17.
         When the RCC was designed, The Roman Empire was divided into seven districts, each district was given their own Pope. These seven districts was then divided into three regions another pope was assigned within each region having authority over church matters in that region. These three would answer to only the Emperor.    Each district being seen in this vision is being represented as a head having ten crowns (popes)
         As I said before  this is just the way I understand it.   
         Guess this is enough for now.  gotta run out for a little while.

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            SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            What ten headed beast are you talking about? There is only seven heads with ten horns in rev 13. I cannot see a connection with the popes and seven districts as you do. The end of the age of the old covenant in my opinion makes perfect sense with the prophecies written in this book.

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               Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Haven't been able to get on line lately except for ONE minute the other day.
               
               sorry about that ...  got to typing too fast and didn't proof read that.  I meant seven heads which I think in that instance represents seven districts or even posibly the kings (persons in charge of those districts)  But there are three other persons having ultimate authority over church business, a total of ten crowns
               
               In 355 the Pope in Rome was deflocked and sent into exile. Due to public outcry the Emperor chose to recall Liberous back to Rome to resume his position as Pope.
                  
               I see this as one of the heads recovering from a deadly wound.  But maybe my imagination is a little too expanded or streetched?

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   First I would like to say,  counting forward from 538 BC to 0 is 538 years. Add another 30 If Christ was crucified in 30 AD.  This would be approx 568 years. This is said to be 62 weeks in prophesy if the commandment did go out in 538ish. ??  Just pretend behind door number three is a third possibly which you haven’t thought about???   
   Scripture says In the first year of Cyrus (Oct 539 to Oct 538) he was charged from God to build God a house in Jerusalem (Ezra first chapter) This is pretty simple.   
   Some time between 750 BC and 686-ish God told Isaiah that Cyrus will rebuild Jerusalem and lay the foundations for the temple. 
   
   And in Daniel, Gabriel did say that" the commandment" has gone forth just a couple of weeks prior.
   And then .....   Gabriel says that from the time the commandment goes forth it shall be 69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince and it shall be 62 weeks and they are going to kill the Messiah.
   Do you agree that scripture does say this?     This seems way too simple to me to try to interpret some other meaning out of this simply stated version. 
   Since this was told long before a lot of other stuff, this should be a foundation upon which any interpretations we make  about any statements made at a later date our should fit upon it
   That just sounds too simple the way it is written that I don't see any need to interpret "anything" about Daniel 9
   But I'm just a simpilton

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      Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I never called you a simpleton. I 'm just in disagreement with your time line. You leave broken sentences and thoughts dangling at times and I find it difficult to follow you sometimes We have each given our opinion and  again I respectfully agree to disagree. The cows have come in. " Darius the Meade, that is, Cyaxares, the uncle of Cyrus, took the kingdom; for Cyrus allowed him the title of all his conquests as long as he lived." At  the taking of Babylon Cyrus, as an act of courtesy, assigned the first place in the kingdom to his uncle Darius. in 538b.c. But 2 yrs later Darius died, leaving Cyrus sole monarch of the empire. Daniel is a book of prophecy as is Rev.  Many are confused by them and I don't won't to start all over again as what I see (partly) as why Have a good one

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   Robertr04 wrote 
   In chap8 the manner in which Gabe introduces himself shows that he has come to complete some unfinished mission. We agree on this.This can be nothing less than to carry out the instruction to make this man "understand the vision", as recorded in Dan.8. He says ,"I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding".  As the charge still still rested upon him to make Dan. understand, and as he had explained to Dan. in chap8
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   ME    actualy Chapter 8 begins with  "In the third year of the reign of Belshazzar a vision apeared to me ..."
   Belshazzar was Nebeuchadnazzar's son or grand son, I don't remember wich right now. This identifies the year that Daniel has this vision as being approx 560 or 558ish BC.
   
   I've always wondered why some of the books in the bible are completely out of Chronoligical order such as Daniel Chapter 5 is supposed to have taken place just before Cyrus invaded and captured Babylon in 539 BC, When the events in Daniel 5 & 9 are said to have happened about the same time   539ish BC;             C. 6 & 8. happened a coulpe decades before C 5,7&9 (around 560is BC) which makes the book of Daniel much more confusing?

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   Jeramiposted 11 years ago

   Robertr04  You haven't said if you were a preterist, historist or futurist or none of the above?

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      Robertr04posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Jerami, been away for a few days. The wife and I needed a break. I'm nothing, no affiliations. Merely a servant of the Most High. I'm into health, spiritual and physical. I enjoy exchanging views with other believers about what and why they believe, what they believe. I enjoy talking to anyone about physical well being, especially the alternative methods of getting there.

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