I understand what constitutes "will" but what is free will? I keep reading it all over these forums, but no one seems to know what it means.
Can anyone explain?
We each have will and it is unique to us, as we all have a unique set of conditioning. Will is the manifestation of that conditioning. It is not free, it is independent of others will. That meaning you have your own will independent from other people's will.
But "free" in front of the word will is meaningless and misleading. It only means independent from god's will, according to Christianity, and according to them, only given to us so we could "freely" do the will of god instead of our own.
So, in other words, meaningless. I'd much rather people said our will is independent of other people's will, or that we all have a unique will, or just that we all have will without the nonsense word "free" in front of it.
I believe free will is a person's ability to make their own choices, good or bad. We have the ability to do right or wrong. That is our free will.
Free will is supposed to mean that we have the ability to freely choose to do something or not to do something. But "free" will is an illusion. Most people think that their "will" is something they have complete control over. It's not. We do not and cannot know "free" will, but we like to enjoy its illusion. We like to think that we have full control over our decisions 100% of the time, but are completely unaware of the workings of our biology and the unconscious mind. Women aren't always aware of the fact that they may have cheated on their boyfriend because they were ovulating and when we ovulate, we are driven towards men with certain features that are not typically the men we date long term (but if she is dating a man with those features long term, she is MUCH less likely to cheat). We aren't aware that often when we're ovulating, we feel better about ourselves, and often even look different(more appealing to a mate). We're not aware that certain imbalances in our bodies can cause us to desire to eat strange things we may not even want to desire to eat, let alone actually eat. But we do. And we wonder why. Many people aren't aware of the fact that studies show that men that have larger testicles are more likely to be skirt chasers, and that men with smaller testicles are more likely to settle down and be monogamous (and much sooner).
How aware we are determines our ability to really act "freely," but even then our actions and decisions are curbed and shaped by our society, era, family "values," religious upbringing, parent-attachment issues, even traumas we can't always remember, or if we remember them, we can't always control how we act because of them. Like men that come home from war and are never really the same. And they do things they regret and they say "I'm sorry, I don't know why I did that. It's kind of scary for us to think that we're not always in control, so we convince ourselves we always know the reason for our actions. But we don't. Who we are is influenced from birth (or if mommy's not doing right, before birth) and on. The most important stages of our lives mostly determine how we'll be later on. Unless we become more aware at some point. But even when we are more aware, we still do things we wish we wouldn't. Just a lot less often.
I'm not so sure that "free will" (at least how most people explain it) even exists. Whether you believe like I do that we were created by God or that we evolved from some primordial ancestor, there's no denying the fact that every human being has a distinct nature.
I think that our individual natures prevent us from having truly free will (i.e. "I pick from absolutely anything and can do absolutely anything I want). These natures "blind" us to the things that, frankly, we would just never do. Like kissing a hippo. Or becoming a professional elephant butt inspector (that's a real thing, by the way!).
To illustrate, think of your closet. Most people at some point have that one shirt that's kind of ugly (and they totally regret buying it). Otherwise, perhaps it was a gift. A very hideous gift. At any rate, it wouldn't be entirely true to say that you are "free" to wear any of the shirts in your closet if your own tastes keep you from ever considering wearing that one ugly shirt. You could wear it, technically, but you won't...because it's ugly. So it's not really 100% free will (or free choice) if your own tastes, morays, and nature will keep you from considering doing certain things.
I'm physically capable of taking a swan dive off the Empire State building. If I climbed it, I could jump off. Technically. But would I consider it? Heck no! My better judgement keeps me from ever pondering whether or not I want to jump off buildings.
That's what I think actual "semi-free" will is. It's our ability to make choices and decisions within the limited scope of possibilities that our minds will let us consider (due to our biases, natures, morays, etc.). We are still free to make choices, but we certainly don't have infinite possibilities at our disposal.
I couldn't agree more. I think we all have to recognize that we each have a unique will that is the manifestation of our conditioning and genetic predispositions. The word free in front of he word will is meaningless.
Basically free will means you can choose what to do next.
It is contrasted to what you do next being predetermined and fixed.
We must GUIDE our "free" will according to our upbringing and acquired wisdom. Animals behave a certain way according to their instincts. The behavior of humans is not programed / does not operate according to instincts. We humans decide what actions we wish to take and come up with our own reasons for our decisions. In another words, we naturally must make choices, since we are not led by instincts.
However, the amount of free will we end up having is based on environment.
This is why LIBERTY is such an important concept in The United States of America.
How much free will does one have in anarchy?
How much free will does one have in socialism?
How much free will does one have in a democratic republic?
unless the PEOPLE allow the elected representatives
tax and fine
The behaviour of humans is not preprogrammed, does not operate according to instinct? Got a behavioural psychology degree have you?
This is the argument. It is beyond common sense in my opinion.
"Are we really just automatons—creatures without the ability to choose? And if we are, what is the need for volitional functioning, making sense of the world, or self-actualization? An automaton would have no need for any of these things."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pro … -free-will
I read that article and agree with it completely.
It says there is no way to know if humans have free will or not.
I am wondering if you read it?
Yes, a PhD in behaviorist psychology including research on both humans and rats.
Humans have reflexes and instincts in exactly the same way animals do. We blink if air puffs in our eyes. We have an instinctive fear of snakes. We get more aggressive when deprived of social support.
Just like animals.
Even things led by instinct alone have to make choices.
I am sure that if humans have free will, animals do too.
Free will is just a state. What individuals choose to do with it is a whole other issue.
Animals are dictated by instincts. The amount of free will they have, is limited by the behavioral system that exists within them as designed by nature. My dogs cannot choose to go on a walk whenever they want. Why? Because they can't say to me… "Hey, don't you think it would be fun to go for a walk right now?"
Humans and non-human animals both have instincts and learned behavior driving conscious choice.
Thus the dog can choose to do whatever the environment it is trapped within allows. Just like us.
(FWIW I am currently employed as a full time animal psychologist)
Do you really think a dog doesn't communicate what he wants to his owner?
"The free will issue has huge issues for many areas of our society, including our legal system. If a criminal defendant has no free will, then he cannot be held responsible for his crime, because he could not have chosen otherwise. A child who fails an exam cannot be punished, because that test score could not have been different. A parent who spoils her children is not doing anything “wrong”, because she did not make the choice to raise her children in any specific way."
This is obviously ridiculous.
And if someone has pure free will there is no point in treating them if they have a mental illness or trying to redeem if they had a hard life because they 100% intended to commit the crime for no reason other than their own evil.
The truth, I suspect, is somewhere in the middle. It usually is.
"Whether or not humans have free will is a question that philosophers have debated for centuries, and they will likely continue to do so. Psychology can provide some insights into how free will—or at least a belief in its existence—might work, but beyond that, we likely cannot verify or *invalidate* its existence."
At least give us that from those brilliant psychologists!
PS You, Psycheskinner, are not allowed to disagree with me.
Of course I give you that, it was my point all along. That humans and other animals may or may not have free will.
Any given choice has some constriants (if I am locked in a room I cannot choose to leave), and some degree of experienced volition (I feel like I am making this choice).
In practice that is all that really matters.
I agree with the conclusion presented in the article: We cannot *invalidate* the existence of free will.
What backs up evidence of free will?
Maybe the fact that I can either keyboard in this forum or not. Maybe the fact that I can get up from my chair any time I so choose. Maybe the fact that if I wanted to, I could get myself banned from these forums (again) in no time flat! But then I do have
Hmmm... what shall I have for dinner…
Oh wait... is that my mother telling me in my subconscious that I must choose vegetables? Darn carrots and broccoli….
I can't cook dinner anyway right now… my dogs are insisting I take them for a walk. I wonder why they can't entertain themselves? All three of my dogs sit on the couch waiting for a stimulus from me. The only other thing they are motivated to do is bark… and that's not because of instincts to protect the house, or anything.
Let's look at your problem and see if we can answer that question.
Imagine, if you will, you were inside of a room and the only way out was a door. Unfortunately, for you, the door has a special handle that requires a special tool in order to open it, but you don't have that tool available. You can't break the door down since you don't have the strength for it.
Do you think that if you wanted to go outside for a walk, you would be able to get out of the room without that special tool?
If for example, someone else were in that room with you and they had that special tool, would you ask them to use the tool and open the door for you so you could go for a walk? Of course, you would.
That is pretty much the situation your dogs are in, they don't have the special tool to open the door and go outside for a walk. That tool being our hands, of course. Dogs have paws. Hope that helps to answer your question.
No. My question is this:
My dogs do not do anything to entertain themselves. They only wait for me to take them for a walk. That walk is where they use their free will. They sniff, poop, pee, run, frisk about and bark…. they only use their free will on that walk… why?
Because that is the avenue Nature, working from within the dog, leads them on.
(Note: They seem to have a certain amount of free will outside on a walk, but not in the house. Maybe that's just my dogs.)
But, most dogs really perk up on their walk. In fact, I am aware that most dogs become very hard to live with if not taken for their walk. In other words, they love to use their free will in the direction nature has given them.
We find joy in free will and with our large brains we have been given a wider avenue... by nature.
When we cannot use that free will …like in a room with nothing in it… we become pretty miserable too.
Free will equals Joy of life.
I have no idea what you're saying there. Dogs have the free will to sniff, poop, pee, run, frisk about and bark in your house, too. However, you most likely don't allow them to do that, in the same way you don't pee or poop on the floor of your kitchen.
Uh yeah, because they are now in an environment where they are allowed, if not, encouraged to do so. This has nothing to do with having the free will to do it.
Isn't creativity and intelligence/genius the result of free will?
Quite a few animals have shown either or both; do animals have free will?
Yes, within the limits of their limited capabilities, they do have a certain amount of free will to guide. Crows who watched fishermen pull fish out of ice holes on lines, figured out how to pull up the lines by coordinating their feet. (The lines had been rigged in position and left on the ice.) Elephants seem to have great empathy and sympathy for their own kind. Cats and dogs willingly give comfort to their masters when they see them unhappy. Dogs have food preferences and favorite toys. (One on my dogs requests to carry his leash home at the end of our walk. He tugs at his leash about a block away from the house, signaling that it is time for me to drop the leash. After I drop it, he folds it up with his mouth and teeth and then carries it all the way home. And he seems to be so proud of his achievement!) Dogs seem to have the will to please their masters. They do not like to be forced. Consider the elephant who storms out of the circus tent after enduring enough tyranny! any other examples? Horse whispers tell us there is a more gentle way to handle horses and that they do not have to be forced.
We humans have more capability for creativity, inventiveness and intelligence.
I would tend to agree, although many find that animals only act according to instinct and necessity. I think animals DO have free will, perhaps as much or more than man does. With intelligence and reason comes a limiting of choice in many instances.
No, my experience with pets has shown me the depth of their natures, even though they are "just animals." Every animal has his own personality. But it would stand to reason they are expressing separate individualities and therefore possess some amount of free-will, (in varying degrees.)
"with intelligence and reason comes a limiting of choice." Yes. For instance, when we agree to marry someone, we (willingly) give up a lot of freedom.
I was thinking more along the lines of the ability to reason out a negative consequence of an action and there fore we won't do it. Technically, free will is still there - we could light a match with our teeth maybe - but reason as told us the negative consequences are great enough to deter making that choice.
Destiny vs Free Will
Then there are the astrologers who tell us we operate according to when we were born and where the planets are in the skies.
Sure enough. And there are even people alive today that swallow such nonsense and pay to hear it.
Amazing what people will believe, when they want to. Or when indoctrinated from childhood.
I know, it's hilarious, isn't it. Trying to tell us that chunks of rocks and balls of burning gas trillions of miles away having tremendous effects on us such that we succumb to a certain mold. I laughed till I cried.
If you want to know if you have "free will", quit "ALL" your bad habits right now!lol....If you can do that, then i'd say you have free will, & also very strong "will power"!....Of course no one can do that, but you can make a start....I reckon that as you quit your bad habits etc, you start to manifest "will power"...Your'l probably have to go through at least 30 days, of withdrawl symptoms & pain etc...But at the end of it, you will have very strong "free will", " will power"....The funny part about "free will" is it's NOT free in the first place, it has to be earn't...We're tempted all the time to do things which are bad for us, and also things that are bad for others...And at every time we're "conscious" of our actions, we have the "free will" to say yes or no...Some choose to do good, & some to choose to do bad...Now depending on how much "will power" they have at the time, would determine their choice...So i'd say yes we ALL have, or at least "had" at some point "free will"....However hardly anybody has strong "will power" nowadays, so they don't have "free will" any more...Unless of course we're just being "programmed" somehow, but that could never be proved. :-)
…and there is won't power as well. Free will we have... within boundaries. We must guide our will within those boundaries. To be proactive in guaranteeing for ourselves a good life, we must use wisdom and the knowledge of how to live.
How is *good* defined? All which leads to LIFE... and not death is *good*. So, we have free will to LIVE … and its true that no one wants to die… unless they have not been proactive and their lives degenerate and have become seemingly hopeless. But even they can take heart. They too can turn their lives around, starting now…
all they have to do is stand up!
"Stand Up" by Al Green:
Stand up, and identify yourself
Stand up, and identify yourself
What's your name, what's the nature
of the game, who you are
How far you come, where have you been
Stand up, you've been promised just one day
And that's today
Stand up, no sense in sleeping your life away
Where you going, what's your plan
If you a loser or a winning man
Tell me now, I wanna know
You've got to let the glory show
Stand up, tomorrow's about to come
Are you ready
Stand up, today's got you on the run
Don't fall down on your face
and let someone take your place
Cause you oughta know, you can do it
Tell me that there's nothing to it
Where you going, do you know
Did you're friends tell you so
Can you make it by yourself
With the strength that you have left
Why dont you give me a hand
I'll try my best to understand
I dont know about goodbye
But nothing fails but a try
Hey Kathryn i don't think there are boundaries to freewill, as if there we're it no longer becomes freewill...I can't think of an example of an instance, where i couldn't choose between doing right or wrong...I know what freewill is only because i haven't got it yet, but i'm building my willpower up to get it...If you smoke for example you have "no" freewill, however if you pack in smoking you develop freewill....I suppose the only gauge to freewill is if we're doing exactly what we want, when we want to do it, including our job etc....Basically if we do anything in our daily lives that we don't love doing, then that is distracting from our freewill power. :-)
Some have wondered about the apparent conflict between free will and God's omniscience and prescience.
God may not know what you're going to do, but I'm sure he has a pretty good idea, based on your current attitudes. You can still change your mind, especially if you switch from ego to spirit as the source of your awareness (like switching from watching television to watching your surroundings using your own eyes).
Being able to tell the future is part perception, but likely mostly creation. Everyone still has free will, but God merely chooses those who have evil in their heart to create the upcoming wars that were foretold. Anyone following ego is deterministic, because ego is physical and thus follows the laws of action-reaction.
Civilization is built on the ability to ignore ego. Without the inspiration of spirit (religion, prophets, etc.), civilization will likely slide into oblivion of wailing (victims) and gnashing (perpetrators).
Love really is the answer -- thinking nothing of the self.
"Love really is the answer -- thinking nothing of the self."
Which is impossible since love is the act of making something part of self.
Sure the ego can give into the pressure from the super-ego and for a short time do as the super-ego requests, but a week ego also give into the ID just as easily. I imagine that's what your talking about with the spirit stuff, because otherwise you are making no sense at all. If you spend some time thinking about what goes on in your mind you will realize that both the super-ego and the ID are asking for attention. It's the egos job to decide when and where to give in to the desires. So we end up with these preachers who get caught with a prostitute. Balance and a strong ego is the key.
In my opinion the ID or observer does not ask for attention, it can't interact with the mind or the ego at all (not through the mind anyway)....Through meditation you can become the ID/observer, & all you can do at that point is look into blackness with depth....You will have no feelings/emotions, & wont be thinking at the time....A totally none material none thought timeless moment, & the only thing you will know is that you are looking..(who ever "you" are)..That's why i would say the ID/observer doesn't try to tempt us, the mind doesn't either, only the ego tries to tempt us....I know what Freud says on the subject, & i disagree only as i meditate often, & would say that i have become the ID/observer twice.....I know the ego is manifested through our lives as various good/bad things happen to us, & experiences relationships & other peoples opinions etc etc.....(Our story of our life, if you like).....But our mind on it's own is completely neutral, & only there for problem solving/ideas etc....So for me it's only the ego, that tempts us to do bad for ourselves & others.
What you are saying does not seem to line up with what Freud intended.
Per Freud the Ego ("Ich") is the self. The self tries to give the id (instinctive drives like lust and hunger) what it wants in reasonable ways.
The ego *is* the mind, is person's identify/self that experiences temptations--not the source of temptations.
For me the self is the ID not the ego, & the ID is the real i....If i have (like i think i have) experienced my own ID twice, then during those times there are no feelings/emotions etc to be had....No feelings of lust & hunger, only looking into blackness with a knowing that i was looking....I reckon the ego lusts & desires, & it's the ego that looks back etc....As far as hunger is concerned i'd say that is the bodies request, & nothing to do with our mind....So our mind is for thinking/problem solving etc, & our ID is neutral just watching.....Now since iv'e been monitoring my ego, (which obviously resides in my mind), i know my ego isn't me....It will just pop up at random, & say a negative remark about myself or someone else....The more you get on top of it & more aware of it, the more absurd it becomes....The thing is though is that everyone out there is an ego to some extent, & the people with big ego's are generally less helpful/friendly etc to others.....So the ego isn't a good thing, but it does exist.....So when i started to look at everyone as an ego, a lot of things started to make sense.....The only people who aren't ego's, are the ones who are in control of their own minds....So for me the ego isn't the mind it just resides in the mind, & the more meditating living good etc that i do, the less i see/hear from my ego....I can still use my mind, but more productively now....It's a clear battle for me between my ego, & my free will/will power.....The more i use freewill/willpower the less i see/hear from my ego, the less i use freewill/willpower the more i see/hear from my ego.....So we have a scale & on that scale is freewill/willpower at one end, & our ego at the other end....We can slide up & down that scale for ever, or gain control of our ego & slide all the way up to freewill/willpower....I say slide but it's more of an uphill climb!lol
So you simply make up your own language that appears to be the opposite of terms others are using? Why not simply use the language others are using to make communication easier.
An ego is described as self-esteem or one of the three constructs in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche. If you are using it with the term ID that you are using it as described by Freud. In which case you've kind of got them backwards.
In that context the ego is the conscious part of the mind that attempts to seek to please the super-ego and id's drive in realistic ways. You get those little urges to do things you shouldn't from the ID and it's the ego's job to decide how and when and if it should act on the urges or conceal them from your consciousness.
I just type it how i see it Dr lamb, i have read nothing by Freud....I have my own mind to investigate, & that's what iv'e done.....Anyway i disagree that i get little urges etc from my ID, i only get them from my ego (apart from bodily functions)....You say my ego is seeking to please my super ego, what is this super ego you refer to?....I have (in my opinion) my body, my mind, my ego & the "i" that resides therein....Only my ego is there to tempt me, not my ID....My ID is just there as an observer, which i have observed (as my ID)....As iv'e practiced self control etc over the last year, my ego hardly bothers me now.....So what's happened there?, has my ID lost interest or something?, no more little urges etc....I do still get some, but it's obvious to me that they come from my ego mind, & not my ID.....I know my body is not me, & is just a solar powered machine....I know my mind is not me, & that's why it couldn't find what i need in life....I definitely know my ego isn't me, as iv'e nearly full control over it......So that leaves me with my ID whoever/whatever that is, i don't know who my ID is, but i know it exists.....The energy that animates my solar powered machine body, consciousness or maybe it is actually my soul....Not a question that i will know while i'm here, so i looked for the why i'm here.....I'm also pretty sure we can get feed back from our ID, & maybe we do without actually realizing it....Maybe love can only be felt by the ID, i know all my feelings/emotions arise from my mind, but i don't see love that way....Love comes from being connected to another source, & love comes from looking or rather is seen through the eyes....I see the ego as destructive & negative only, & is responsible for all bad doing in the world today/yesterday & tomorrow....People say "you can't be led by your heart", whereas i reckon we can.....Ego or heart is the test, & if you choose the right one you get a content life. :-)
Okay, you've got the terminology all messed up. But you do have the right idea. What you call the ID Freud call the ego. What you call the ego Freud call the ID. The ID doesn't mean identification is that sense. None of these things individually is you, you are the collection of them.
The part of our minds that is aware (you call the ID and the rest of the world calls the ego) responds to demand from the mostly subconscious parts of the mind (you call the ego and the rest of the world call the ID) and the superego (you don't have a term for that). The ID (Freud's term) the part of the mind in which innate instinctive impulses and primary processes are manifest. It wants and asked the ego (Freud's term) for things and the ego decides yes or no. The superego is the part of a person's mind that acts as a self-critical conscience, reflecting social standards learned from parents and teachers.
Thanks for your help Dr Lamb, & obviously i'm still looking into it....I never liked using the term ID, so this is how i was looking at things: My ID is just whatever/whoever i really am, as i'm not Dave36, or my body, or my mind....So what am i?, i am (i think anyway) whatever i was during the 2 instances of deep meditation....Whatever that was is what i'm calling my ID, not my ego minds ID....So whatever that was is inside my body, along for the ride if you like....So that's inside my body, & my body has it's own needs for it to function....I also have a mind that is totally neutral, apart from the fact that my ego was trying to corrupt it....In my opinion the "super ego" doesn't exist, but is just the "ego" trying to trick us into thinking it does....So the ego, & super ego are the same things....When people think their arguing against their ego, they don't realize that it's their ego that's doing all the arguing for both sides....I know what you mean when you say what Freud says about the ego, but the ego as he says it is the persons story of their life etc & how their identified by it....The ego is then the minds identification of itself....When i say ego i specifically mean, All the negative thoughts/acts we do to ourselves & others & only that....My ego doesn't decide yes or no for me anymore, & it hardly bothers trying to tempt me anymore, & that's why i think like i do about my mind....In fact since i became aware of my ego which resides in my mind, & started to monitor the things it said....I learned to control it then ignore it, then my life improved massively.....I read a few times that the way to have a healthy mind, is to give each part of it what it needs, but i disagree....In my opinion the only way to have a healthy mind, is to gain almost full control of one's ego.....Only a theory etc, thanks for the feedback. :-)
It's good to control those negative impulses that your subconscious mind bring up. I suspect you are giving into them more than you are aware of. We all do, it's important to know when and where to give in. If one is robbing banks that they are not good at controlling impulses. I suggest readying about Freud's model of the mind, it explains much of what we see around us.
You are the sum of all your qualities.
My qualities are all on a scale as in the yin/yang, Good/Bad Kind/Cruel Generous/Greedy etc....Iv'e been sliding up & down those scales all my life, & i'm always in a different position on each scale at any one time....Iv'e now discovered that it's all up to me which way i "slide", & it's got nothing to do with my past or outside influences....So now i know that, i'd like to go zooming off to will power/free will land tomorrow....Only i can't because life is hard (on purpose!)....Most peeps are negative because of their own ego, as in they believe they are actually their ego, when their not their ego....You take away all your negative thoughts Dr Lamb, & then see what your left with.....Your left with a neutral mind, & it wont be popping up with positive thoughts all of a sudden...You can still operate perfectly fine if not better, but your'l be led by something else....I bet you any money that your ego never pops up, & says anything positive at all ever....You feel to do the good stuff, but your ego tells you to do the bad stuff....The best way to gain contentment in life, is to get rid of our ego's....So it's an obvious test to me, & it's the ego vs free will.....By the looks of what's happening around the world, it's looks like the ego's are winning.
You can't get ride of those urges. You simply ignore them, and that's okay, but they will always be there. I want some chocolate, sex, beer. You can control it but the thoughts don't go away.
You don't ignore them, you simply focus your mind on other things....I can tell you something right now that in theory, would get rid of all your negative thoughts....All you have to do is listen to what they say, & then don't do it!....The ego might pop up, & say "have some chocolate" = using will power....If you have some chocolate, & don't deserve some = losing a little bit of will power....If you can resist you build a little bit of will power, & i try it with everything......At the end of the day i'm pretty sure i have the deciding vote, not my ego....It's a scientific fact that if you eat something you hate every day for 30 days, you will end up loving it, & it's the same for chocolate/beer/fags etc......Give them up for 30 days, & your'l no longer want them.....Ultimately the thoughts get less & less, & then hardly appear anymore....I realized that i used to do everything from my ego's point of view like most people do, now i do it from a different view.
The conflict of believers failing miserably to show free will and God exists.
So, what is spirit? How do you switch to it? Using your eyes means using your brain.
You mean the religious wars?
"How do you switch to it?"
Meditation or prayer. There are probably other ways too.
That doesn't answer the question as to what it is.
I reckon free will exists but isn't used, people are too lazy to build free will....For me free will is built by using will power, will power is gained by practice & repetition....If someone smokes they have no free will, but if they quit smoking & stay smoke free they start developing will power, that in itself starts to build free will....Someone who does only things considered good for themselves & others, has in my opinion free will & strong will power....On the other hand peeps who are led by their ego mind, will do things that are considered bad for themselves & others....It takes a lot of work & effort to tame our ego mind, & that's why most peeps don't bother, & it's not fashionable nowadays!lol....Anyway the ego mind comes up with the bad ideas, & does the bad things to ourselves & others....But once the ego mind has been tamed, that leaves our mind free to help us with thinking/problem solving etc....I'd say ALL bad deeds are done by our ego mind, not our mind, but our ego mind.....So i learn't to control & then tame my ego mind, & now i'm led by my intuition/instinct & ultimately my heart....All learn't from meditating, & emotions/feelings control....Iv'e had an OBE experience, & yet science says there's no evidence for OBE's....All i'd say is that there's some amazing fascinating experiences, to be had whilst meditating.....Don't knock it until you try it. :-)
Sorry, if there is no evidence for OBE's, then you didn't have one, it was all in your head.
I think you need to work on your terminology. When you are talking about the ego wanted to bad things what you don't understand is that that's not the ego wanting to bad things. The ID or sub-conscious is constantly asking the ego to do things that the ego knows it shouldn't. A strong ego will not allow itself to be persuaded by the ID or sub-conscious. So rather than wanting a week ego we want a strong ego that can control the urges from the ID.
Further, you can claim you had a OBE's if you like that that doesn't mean you were out of your body, it just means you've experienced some that seemed like you were out of your body.
OBE's are easily testable and have been tested, but nobody had ever proved they were out of body.
Go & do lots of meditating, & meet your own ID like i have twice....Then come back on here, & see if you feel the same way....You can't just read about someone else's opinion in a book, you have to do some research.....So until you've done the research/meditating, you shouldn't comment on things you know nothing about.....I had half an OBE whilst i was awake buddy, i tensed up & went back into my body (whilst awake)....I don't expect you to believe me as i wouldn't have believed you, not until i had one myself....I mean it's not a very scientific approach to not try something, but at the same time saying it's all bulls**t!lol.....When i had my experience, i was laid on my bed awake....I was laid on my back, & went to lean forwards to get more comfy.....When i leaned forwards, the top half of my body separated from itself....I felt it then tensed up, & went back into my body.....Now i'm only typing this for others who might have experienced similar, i know you wont believe me, & will probably never try it for yourself.
If you mean by "id" something other than what psychoanalysts mean by "id" you need to invent a new word for it.
Sorry, I've had OBE's myself, so please don't tell me I don't understand. I can tell you that all blind studies have shown that those who claim to have these experiences don't possess the evidence laid out for them to grasp is they had had the experience. An experience does not make something factual, thoughts are abstracts.
It will help the conversation if you do a little reading on what psychoanalysts mean by ID and EGO.
Meditation is simply the focus of the mind. It takes a conscious effort by the ego to do focus the mind. This can be seen using fMRI's. During meditation the brain displays a specific pattern, it doesn't shut down.
Of course the brain doesn't shut down when you meditate.
The point is to get to a certain state of mind, possibly delta, and remain there on purpose. That can be done through a variety of methods.
Right, and the spirit world has nothing to do with it at all.
There is no spirit world. Just this one. Only most people will only see a tiny portion of it.
But will that delta state produce a "seeing" that is false to fact? We know that an improperly operating brain will "see" things that aren't there (or hear, feel or simply imagine) - will forcing the brain into an abnormal state cause the same thing?
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