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Doubt Versus Faith

  1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago

    So any of you watched the new episode of Cosmos. ...It is encouraging doubt as a contrast to faith. It's not overly atheist sounding but it took a little knife, jabbed it into the three great religions foundational doctrine which is "faith" and twisted it ever so gently.

    1. Paul Wingert profile image79
      Paul Wingertposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I didn't need to watch Cosmos to conclude that religion is BS. Religion has been pushing their crap on the population for thousands of years and it's time for it to go. If the religitards can't handle what the show is presenting, TS.

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Yes. Referring to them as religitards shows how your philosophy is oh so much better than theirs. I would say, adopting such an arrogant view of others, without bothering to attempt to understand how they hold that view will definitely contribute to great things like more peaceful human interaction. On second thought, I so seriously doubt that it will, that I've decided not to add the word to my dictionary.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I think religion emerged because at that point we needed something to hold on to, to understand the world around us. So its not bullshit. It's just quite possibly outdated.

    2. Zelkiiro profile image83
      Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Even if you're religious, it's much wiser to doubt than to blindly believe. As Life of Pi elegantly put it:

      Pi: "Faith is a house with many rooms."
      Writer: "But no room for doubt?"
      Pi: "Oh, plenty. On every floor! Doubt is useful--it keeps faith a living thing. After all, you cannot know the strength of your faith until it is tested."

    3. profile image0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I think doubt is humanity's's greatest strength. It helps us discover new things. It helps to keep our minds open to new ideas. And it keeps us grounded in reality.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I think doubt is also humanity's greatest weakness. It detracts us from discovering new things. It prevents our minds to try new ideas and keeps us from expanding our view of reality. Doubt in itself is restricting. I believe (once again, I use this word because I do not hold the candle of certainty for the validity of my statement) that for knowledge to grow, doubt and faith must tug and pull on each other constantly. It can't be one or the other. Doubt and faith is a contraction that births knowledge and understanding.

        1. profile image0
          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That's life. Isn't it? Finding the proper balance. Everything within us can be seen as a vice, or a virtue; depending on where we stand to look at it.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
            ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            true, the contrast is what produces depth.

    4. kess profile image61
      kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Doubt must be nullified in order for faith to be established.

      Any doubt, no matter what kind, is undermining faith.

      This is why each can only speak/teach his own kind of Faith, meaning that it will be inclusive of his own doubtfulness.

      But there a  Faith exclusive of all doubtfulness and this faith never compromise with doubt.

      1. Zelkiiro profile image83
        Zelkiiroposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Blind faith is the worst kind of faith. It makes you gullible and stupid.

        1. kess profile image61
          kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          And the only evidence of blind faith is the perception or the idea that blind faith can exist...

          And indeed it does for it is that man.

          Otherwise its existence would be an impossibility.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
            ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Well I believe, (say believe because I don't have the actual database or experiment to conclusively say so) that that is precisely the point. Everything is based on blind faith. The limits of our human consciousness cannot allow us anything else but to see reality based on what our senses tell us. We have faith that our senses are accurate in determining reality. But present-day physicists now see that the fundamental problem of understanding the nature of universe as it is outside of our human experience cannot be transcended until we understand ourselves. We seem to be now falling into the same trap that led to the religions of the world. Our desire to see the universe by understanding our nature first is the key motivator of faith. It is also the key intellectual fuel of science. I think science is the new religion.

            1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
              EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Sorry, but that makes no sense. They aren't even remotely related.

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Religion was the way we understood ourselves and the universe. That was what was available to us. Then came the scientific method. it became the new way to concur on what reality is. But then, we are now seeing that reality outside of our perceptive powers, namely our senses, is very different. Black is not black if you have large irises. and color is relative to our biological need to perceive it. Reality can be anything depending on what you are.

                1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
                  EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry, but reality defines itself, we don't define it.

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    You're funny. You probably think that reality is based on say, what you see and hear.  Because your senses can never fool you.

                    Sorry, but reality...what's real is something that is based on what's real for an organism. Like for instance, night time is not dark for nocturnal animals. Most animals don't know have use for pink of tangerine. To a fish, it is flying not swimming because water is its air. It drowns in air the way we drown in water. Reality is very relative to the organism. It is observation that defines the experience of reality. And only organism with eyes can observe...namely us. So WE define reality, based on our powers of observation, which changes depending on the tools we use for observing.

                    ever heard of the wave particle duality?

                    Einstein : "It seems as though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do"

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
          ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          We are all blind in what we believe in because it is virtually impossible to see the whole truth.

      2. Jerami profile image74
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I think doubt is kinda like salt and pepper. No kitchen should be without it. There are things we need to put it on, and things we should never put it on.
           I doubt that we ever have all the answers.   OR     that we even regard all the right questions.
           Maybe, doubt and Hope should be intertwined;
           Should either one of these two win out over the other and the struggle seems to be  over, (?) what then (?)

    5. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Seems like Cosmos is teaching science. Obviously, when it does so, it often refers to the past and what people believed incorrectly about things science has now discovered and allowed us to understand. It shows faith to be useless as a tool for understanding anything.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't understand the last sentence but generally agree.

  2. AshtonFirefly profile image83
    AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago

    I have to agree with Zelkiiro. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if a religious person doubts, then it will test their faith. Would that not be healthy instead of blindly believing what is said?

    1. profile image0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I have to say it saddens me at the presumptions people have to create in order to judge others lacking. It also fascinates me how some blindly believe they don't display blind faith, as do others. It's simply a matter of what we put our faith in.

      1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
        AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I'm sorry, but my brain's a little fuzzy. Were you communicating that I was being presumptous or were you making a general statement...? sorry wasn't sure smile If you did feel that way, I'd be interested to discuss it; I certainly don't want to be a hypocrite, and I can always improve smile

        1. profile image0
          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          It was directed at your comment. I simply think lumping large groups like that is a shallow way to view one's fellow man. A religious person. The term is fairly generic. Most of humanity identifies with one religion, or another. Are we to assume that no religious people doubt? Since they do identify with religion it would appear probable by that statement; since we don't see large numbers of people claiming they doubted, their faith was tested, so they now have no faith. Which is the standard assumption among many atheists; if one thinks, then one would be an atheist.

          We all have faith. No matter what we claim to be. Faith that we have the best bead on things. Faith that we have made sound judgments with the data available. We all accept some information as important to the equation and we all discard some. On a cosmic level who among us can claim to know what information is true and what isn't?

          I have faith that most individuals follow a direction of self discovery which is right, for them. I believe everyone, whether they admit to it or not, doubts more than they follow blindly. We don't know the person behind the curtain, we only see the facade. If you believe everything you see and hear and only what you see and hear from any individual, you are coming to conclusions with limited data.

          1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
            AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Ahh okay. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. perhaps this will clarify things smile

            This was the post to which I was referring:

            "Even if you're religious, it's much wiser to doubt than to blindly believe. As Life of Pi elegantly put it:

            Pi: "Faith is a house with many rooms."
            Writer: "But no room for doubt?"
            Pi: "Oh, plenty. On every floor! Doubt is useful--it keeps faith a living thing. After all, you cannot know the strength of your faith until it is tested."

            Not the one about them being gullible.

            I was speaking in a particular context, including all statements previous: religious people being those who believe in a particular religion. I did not say that all religious people have blind faith. I'm just saying that I think doubt it healthy for all of us, including those who are religious, and that I think blind faith, regardless of if we are religious, is bad. make sense? I was speaking in that context because the person with whom I was agreeing was directing the statement specifically towards a religious (meaning adhering to a specific type of belief in a deity of some kind) idea of blindly believing something without ever questioning or doubting. Please read the previous statements. I realize I could have done better to be more clear. However, my statement cannot be analyzed if isolated.

            In summary, what I meant was this: Why would a religious (in the context of the Christians who posted) not want to doubt what they think in some way? It doesn't make sense to me. I thought it would be beneficial? to me, if one has had faith and never, ever doubted or questioned it or put it to some test, then it is a blind faith. On the same token, I think all people should doubt. I think we should all strive for improving ourselves and doubting that we may learn.

            I hope this clarifies my view and thank you for bringing it up so that I could smile It was meant in a certain context and will communicate better now that it is clarified.

            1. profile image0
              Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Yes. That does clarify; to an extent. However, it did single out the religious. Why would one do that? Doesn't your point hold for any belief? By making such a statement you imply that the religious are more susceptible to such a mindset. Or, that religion is something that should be doubted more often than some other beliefs. Or, possibly, that doubt would cause the religious mind more angst than doubt on some other subject. I would be curious why you would imply that; by agreeing; without commenting to that affect.

              And, I would also be curious to what you meant by [i]'Why would a religious (in the context of the Christians who posted) not want to doubt what they think in some way? It doesn't make sense to me.' Part of the conversation may not be appearing on my computer. I don't see those statements made by anyone claiming to be Christian.

              1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
                AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I thought of a better way to explain this.

                I myself am religious. I'm not making this up, check my profile. I believe in A God (deity, w/e) and I believe in Jesus as history tells us, but not what any of the major religions teach. I am therefore,  religious. Why would I single out and attack the "religious" (i hate that term but don't know a good way to say it) if I myself am that way?? Or as I prefer to say, spiritual. I have my own version of spirituality and religion, which is strictly my own. We are more on the same page than you think.

                I was in this context not attacking faith or religious faith or the religious or spiritual or whatever you want to call any of that, but rather ENCOURAGING doubt. I do not like any major religion but I was simply stating that by my OWN experience, doubt is helpful if you want to seek truth and answers, in a religious context, which the OP WAS. Therefore, even though I don't agree with all the major religions referred to in the OP, [assuming me and the OP writer are on the same page regarding which are the three [major] religions], I still want those people to have encouragement and more peace, in their respective beliefs THROUGH doubt, because I can connect with them on a fundamental level and I know it to be helpful.


                Hope that helps.

                1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
                  AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  The OP was about doubt and faith in religion. The following comments discussed whether or not doubt was conducive to faith. I stated that I believed they were conducive. If we had no doubt in our religious faith, then that would be blind faith. Therefore I spoke about blind faith in the context of whether or not doubt was conducive to religious faith. I don't see how that's singling out religious people or religious faith when that's what the OP and the following conversations were about to begin with.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry, i didn't have time to check this thread until now. I get what you're saying. I think my problem is that I don't know that people, whether they claim to be spiritual, atheist,.Christian, Muslim, etc. give others the benefit of the doubt. I think sometimes we look at members of certain sects, or religions, and assume they simply are following blindly. I don't know that I believe anyone blindly follows anything. I think, maybe some things fill a comfort zone. An unimportant block (for them) gets checked.

                    The philosophy they follow fits their own, pretty well. When it begins to deviate, or they grow, they doubt; but I don't know that they doubt their faith, they simply doubt that their prior conclusions fit. Basically, we all have (first, foremost and everywhere in between) faith in ourselves. We simply call that faith different names like atheism, Christianity, spirituality, etc. but it all boils down to believing in ourselves.

  3. ceciliabeltran profile image80
    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago

    I think though that a huge part of scientific discovery stems from faith. It begins at the fundamental faith in the process of the scientific method to get to the answers. So it has faith but not in the same things that "religion" has faith on, which is say, the word of God. Which in truth is like their science, only they didn't have a method, just the text. If you think about it. Most people looks at a science book and has faith in the validity of what's written there. Not everybody sees it for themselves.  Most people take the scientist's word for it. It's not at all what science intends.

    Sure, we let students recreate these experiments and observe the phenomenon. But much about "faith" is also about trusting experts to get you to say...peace of mind or, social acceptance or even transcendence.

    I think that Science is the new dogma. I'm not saying its wrong. I'm just saying that people don't really question Newton. They take his word for it that the thing that pulls us down to earth is gravity, even if Newton doesn't know why. Ever wonder what causes gravity? Gravitons after all are theoretical particles. Much like the spirit is a theoretical substance, whose meaning is lost to us in the modern world.

    1. EncephaloiDead profile image61
      EncephaloiDeadposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      There is faith in evidence, like having faith the sun will rise in the morning, then there is the blind faith of beliefs, in which folks just accept things without thinking or questioning.



      Sorry, but Newton's laws were questioned, that is why we now have Relativity.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Relativity does not negate the premise of newton that gravity is a gravitational field. The only difference is Einstein clarified that space and time are one thing, Spacetime. It is a modification.

        It is interesting to note that Bereishit (the story of Creation) lumps gravity and matter as one thing too. It describes matter (eretz) as a strong need, a female.

  4. ceciliabeltran profile image80
    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago

    I am amazed at how some people who champions science versus religion knows so little about science.

  5. AshtonFirefly profile image83
    AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago

    "Besides, Science was born from the need to negate religious claims. So that said, religion gave birth to science. You have two choices, you can take my word for it, or check the history yourself."

    Actually, science and religion were blended together in the ancient worlds.... hmm

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
      ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      It wasn't science then. It was a lot of theory and philosophy. The science began in the 16th and 17th century because of the scientific method, a system created so others could verify findings. So I disagree, it wasn't blended. Human knowledge though was intertwined with religion.

      1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
        AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        "It wasn't science then. It was a lot of theory and philosophy. The science began in the 16th and 17th century because of the scientific method, a system created so others could verify findings. So I disagree, it wasn't blended. Human knowledge though was intertwined with religion."

        So you get to arbitrarily define what science is?

        Webster definition
        "study of physical world: the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment." Not only by using the scientific method.

        We can argue linguistics all we want. History remains and I have no need to defend it.

        All science is, is theory. At its fundamental level.

        You just contradicted yourself. I thought you said science was born from the need to negate religious claims? Now you said science began "because of the scientific method, which was created so others could verify findings." That is more accurate, in fact, so I don't know why there's a need to say it was created to negate religious claims...

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
          ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          The Church had the power to discredit work regardless of its merit if it does not agree with their version of the sacred texts. The Scientific Method became a tool for intellectuals to concur because it has a system of proving that is replicable. So despite the authoritarian despotism of the then all-powerful church that used religion to control kings and resources, once the intellectuals found a way to agree the church could no longer dispute their claims.

          I am not contradicting myself. Faith is not religion although religion requires faith and doubt is not science, although doubt is necessary for science to to be accurate.  But even in religious growth, you cannot just have faith, one must entertain doubt in order to access deeper faith--certainty.

          In knowledge acquisition, constant doubt also does not produce understanding. If you always doubt your findings, you will never publish it. It will never be replicated and concurred. The idea I propose is doubt and faith are tools for birthing knowledge....or spiritual growth.

          1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
            AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            "The Church had the power to discredit work regardless of its merit if it does not agree with their version of the sacred texts. The Scientific Method became a tool for intellectuals to concur because it has a system of proving that is replicable. So despite the authoritarian despotism of the then all-powerful church that used religion to control kings and resources, once the intellectuals found a way to agree the church could no longer dispute their claims.

            Yes it did. However, science existed before then. Aristotle (roughly 400-300 B.C.) carried out investigations of science and weighed evidence all the time. Read some of his works.

            "I am not contradicting myself. Faith is not religion although religion requires faith and doubt is not science, although doubt is necessary for science to to be accurate.  But even in religious growth, you cannot just have faith, one must entertain doubt in order to access deeper faith--certainty.

            In knowledge acquisition, constant doubt also does not produce understanding. If you always doubt your findings, you will never publish it. It will never be replicated and concurred. The idea I propose is doubt and faith are tools for birthing knowledge....or spiritual growth."

            You did not address the contradiction I presented, which was that you said that the scientific method was created to help others verify their findings, whereas before you said science was created to negate religious claims.

            Science existed long before this era. The Church had more voice at that time, yes. A specific METHOD of science came about at the time you described. Even if you were to argue that this METHOD was an attempt to negate religious claims, it would be incorrect.Just because science DID negate some religious claims did not mean that that was the sole PURPOSE of it.

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
              ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              there was a movement and a necessity to topple the authoritarian rule of church dogma that fuelled the scientific revolution. so even as intellectuals have long tried to understand nature outside of religious thought, it was the necessity of transforming the worldview because of the autocratic rule of the church that made science the then new standard of truth.

              In the same way, pharmaceutical companies whose economic power has presided over practically all aspects of our health is creating a movement to return to natural remedies and organic food, exercise and a return to a more spiritual life and practice, yoga meditation and cleansing exploded as an industry. The growing mistrust on the current products of science, is making people turn back to the natural and spiritual state.

              These are just movements, religion and science are standards of truth, one preceding the other but even science now has grown so powerful, and those in the know are in control of what information or cure becomes accepted or available, it is beginning to act like the inquisition. The amount of drama involved in cancer cure for instance or any research that threatens billions of dollars of current pharmaceutical businesses is not science as the show COSMOS presents it. Scientists are "excommunicated" for preventing disease or presenting evidence that makes healing available for free.

              religion and science are used as garments for human power, neither is evil, it is how we fall into the pattern of using what was meant to help, into something that can control. So the debate of this or that is futile.

              1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
                AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Given the hour (It's 1;00 a.m. here) and my own caffeine-deprived state, I need to make sure I clarify.

                Do you believe that the whole purpose of science is to wield power? Or do you think that science does what it claims to do: to come to a better understanding of the world we live in?

                1. profile image0
                  Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Don't you think the perception of knowledge creates power? Cecilia is correct, in my opinion. Gain the trust of the public, that you are in the best position to provide answers on something; and you can write your own ticket as to wealth and clout. Once you have attained a position of prestige and power; you will not relinquish it willingly. To the individual scientist, I doubt there is any grandiose plan to snooker the world; but the money behind the research does have an agenda of winning hearts and minds. And, that endeavor does entail the suppression of conflicting opinions by any means possible.

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    yes, blame it on marketing lol

                    a wise man once told me...no one runs the world. so we are all just doing the dance of change.

                  2. AshtonFirefly profile image83
                    AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes the perception of knowledge creates power. I never claimed that it didn't. All I said was that It doesn't mean that knowledge is pursued strictly for that purpose.

                    I was arguing that science was not "created" or did not "come about" strictly to the end of wielding power or debunking religion, as he appeared to be claiming.

                    That's what I was clarifying.

                2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                  ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  NO...but people need to survive and they cling on to their lunch ticket and that could be anything of value.

                  1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
                    AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    Ok then I don't see what we're disagreeing about.

                    If the purpose of science is not to wield power (although by your statement about lunch money you are saying it gets used for that purpose, and I agree), then how can the purpose of science (at the time of what I call the scientific revolution, and what you call the "birth" of science) be to debunk religion? Unless you feel that it was, at that time. I'm not understanding the difference...

  6. ceciliabeltran profile image80
    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago

    Oh so you're latching on the word negates...yes well as you know certain luminaries were excommunicated and imprisoned unjustly, so the scientific method during the scientific revolution became a tool to concur and cast doubt on the religious notion of cosmology. If you want specifics, I can recommend sources but as for specific verses...i mean, i'll just write another book, eh?

    1. AshtonFirefly profile image83
      AshtonFireflyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Well, to be specific I was latching onto the phrase "born from the need to..."
      My point was science was not born from religion.

      Specifics of what? The scientific method being used as a tool? Sure it was. But I highly doubt that the need to do so was what created it in the first place.

      As far as your other claim, that "doubt should work hand in hand with faith. It is not just doubt that births understanding," I agree.

  7. ceciliabeltran profile image80
    ceciliabeltranposted 3 years ago

    The point is, I think that doubt should work hand in hand with faith. It is not just doubt that births understanding.

 
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