I've heard that atheists claim that the point of their existence is to leave the world in a better place. As we know, the world is never a better place. Why struggle through life, learn to love and then die? What's the point? Death makes a mockery of life then. If you are a Christian, life is a training phase to learn to love and be re-united with God one day. It's a time to spiritually refine ourselves for life after death. With eternal life, death cannot make a mockery of anyone. Our lives would not have been in vain.
Only if you are christian? Muslims, hindus...... all claim the same. Are you proposing that one should be deluded all through out ones life so that "death will not make a mockery of life"?
World is never a better place? Which world are you talking about?
Is your world view so limited that you cannot see anything other than what is taught by religious nuts?
We don't need to learn to love, only psychpaths (about christians, I don't know) need to learn to love.
You are assuming it is delusion. That doesn't make it so.
When I say the world is never a better place I mean that evil has never lessened. There was never a time when evil did not exist. Can you say that the world we live in is now a better place?
By default, humans are not decent. You leave a child undisciplined all his life and see what kind of adult he/she turns into. We are by default naturally egotistical and selfish. That is the opposite of love. To know the true extent of love, one needs to know what suffering is. Then one knows what compassion is.
It is. What is this evil you are talking about? Disease, wars, famines and outcome of Natural disasters have all turned for the better.
You are your authority but majority of humans are decent.
We are by nature loving and selfish
That is poetic but nothing to do with reality.
Are you asking me for proof of God? What would constitute as proof to you?
WHAT? Yeah, tell those people in Gaza how their lives have turned out so much better after decimation.
I said by default. Also remember that people put on facades. Not all who appear decent are actually. I've come across people who appear so nice and decent then find out that they are Satanists.
We have the capacity to love but the desire to do evil is stronger by default. Being selfish is the indicative of one not knowing the true meaning of love.
How can you feel compassion when you don't know how it is like to suffer? How can you appreciate water when you have never been thirsty?
Logic in the claim.
So the slaves had a very nice living. The people of small nations who were at the threat of war and diseases were having a nice living? A small isolated pockets is not as bad as a world wide war. All the conquered nations were enjoying?
Ha ha satanists??? I came across people who are christians so? People are good and bad at the same time and except for a few, majority are good most of the times.
There is no desire to do evil unless one is a psychpath. The desire is to live and procreate, and helping oneself and ones kin to attain that goal
Again poetic nonsense. Ability to feel one emotion is not dependent on another.
Lol. We are talking about the supernatural here.
I never said slaves were having a nice living. I'm saying that things are getting worse. Are you saying that Gaza is a small isolated pocket? What you don't understand is that seemingly apparent insignificant and isolated things are all connected to a greater scheme. All the bad things in the world are connected for a diabolical agenda.
In case you don't know, sacrificing humans and animals is considered not decent acts. Even the tiniest wrong doing contributes to the evil and suffering in this world. Decent people can do wrong but even then they contribute to the power of evil.
Tell me, if there were no laws and everyone could do what they wanted, how many people would refrain from doing bad things? Would they refrain from stealing and murdering? Be honest, would the crime rate drop or increase exponentially? It appears as if you don't get reality.
One doesn't truly know what love is unless they have been exposed to hate. That is just the truth. How can we call something truth if lies didn't exist? You have to know both sides of the spectrum. You would have more compassion for a beggar if you found yourself homeless and on the streets scavenging for food once upon a time. Often those with the most privileged lives are those who have very little, if any, compassion.
That you wish there to be a "point" to life doesn't make one except in your own mind. If you are a Christian (or muslim, buddhist, or atheist) you can make up your own point as you choose; you choose to decide that the fantasy is true and thus provides that point. But it does not make it so outside of your wishes.
And yes, the world overall is a much better place to live than it was even 100 years ago.
So you think there is no point to your life?
The world is a worse place than it has ever been. We have threats of nuclear war, Ebola, a global economic crash and radiation from Fukushima poisoning the planet. And there is no doubt there is a huge moral decay.
Are you the one who sets moral global standards? If not, on what basis are you saying there is moral decay?
Do you remember the days when cartoons were wholesome? Something terrible has happened in this day and age. This is what you get with a cartoon network affiliated network these days:
After watching that, can you tell me that kids saw this in the eighties, for example? Kids are being desensitized to evil and that is why there is a huge moral decay.
Wholesome and violent you mean?
Bring back de black Momma from Tom and Jerry. Slavery rules.
Odd how concerned you are with the here and now. Does this affect your seat in heaven somehow? Do you get an extra million years in eternity or something? Bring back the good old days when you preferred the biblical morals.
Who says that the black mama was a slave? Not necessarily so but you know what I mean, anyway! How did we go from Tom and Jerry to a dog participating in Satanic rituals with people with decapitated heads? Can you put it in the same league? Can you seriously tell me that life is not morally getting worse?
I thought atheists were concerned with the here and now. Why shouldn't I be? Are you talking about OT morals? No thank you.
How is life morally getting worse. Morally South Africa is in a far better place now than a few years ago. A very good friend of mine grew up in South Africa, he was some how labels coloured rather than black therefore he was allowed to work with whites, but prevented from any socialization. A few hundred years ago people where taking other people by the millions from Africa and selling them like dogs to other parts of the word and that was perfectly legal.
Sorry we are ethically and morally better than that now.
Yes - life s not getting morally worse. Of course - that means your preaching fear an hate is un-necessary. Oh dear.
Slavery - you know - back in the good old days of yore when life was morally better.
What do you mean by preaching fear and hate? And I ask you, is Tom and Jerry in the same league as "Mr Pickles" that Satanic cartoon? Be honest.
The bible is full of fear and hate. All you are preaching is hate and fear. You have read it I take it?
Not sure cutting Tom into little pieces is any different. All that has happened is the Graphics have improved.
When exactly were morals better? Give me a decade.
Oh, I didn't know Jesus was hateful?
So you are saying that a cartoon with Satanic rituals is no worse than Tom and Jerry. Thanks for answering that question.
I remember back in the 80's when the milkman used to deliver the milk and put it outside your door. No one would steal it. It had to be scrapped because theft crept in. This may seem a minor point but why did this happen? Is this not a decay in morals?
Garbage. It had to be stopped because the multi national supermarkets undercut the delivery services. Simple economics.
Yes - Satanic rituals do not scare me any more than Christian ritualistic cannibalism does.
I live in South Africa. There was a theft problem and that it why it was discontinued.
Tell me how Jesus was hateful?
Nonsense. Please stop lying at me.
Odd you picked the 1980s as more moral though. Apartheid more moral huh? Interesting.
Any divisive belief system is hateful. Apartheid and Christianity the same. I remember Jesus told us how to beat our slaves, so perhaps your morals are a little different to mine.
What? What makes you think I'm lying? Do you live in South Africa and received milk service back then?
I'm not referring to governments as more moral. I'm not saying everyone was more moral back in the eighties but it seems that whatever morals back then is certainly degrading. Have you heard of the state of schools? Law and order seems to have broken down. Teachers had authority when I was in school. Now kids stab their teachers and torment them. What has happened?
If you are going to have an opinion on Christianity, then I suggest you acquaint yourself better with the Bible. Jesus was not telling us how to beat a slave. That was a parable.
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Now Jesus makes a comparison.
" Like servants who wait for their master to return from a wedding celebration, disciples should be ready for their Lord to appear anytime at the door. Wedding feasts could last for as long as a week, so the time of someone's return was not always predictable. Servants had to be ready to serve whenever the master broke loose from the party to return home. Disciples should live in the same expectation."
The most faithful and the most responsible of servants anticipate the return of their masters and are ready. Then those who will receive the most severe punishment are those that know the will of their masters but blatantly disregard it. Whilst waiting for the return of the master, they may get drunk and abuse their duties with the attitude of, "My master is late in returning so I might as well have fun and relax." Then he will be caught by the master when he least expects it and be punished. The meaning of this is that it is more wrong for someone who knows God's will and does not act on it as opposed to someone who doesn't and thus the latter receives less punishment.
This clearly is very sobering for those who know Jesus and yet disregard His will. He cannot claim, "Well, I didn't know..." It is a huge responsibility to be a Christian.
But you are claiming that apartheid was more moral aren't you?
Apartheid vs cartoons? Let me think.
Ah - parables huh? If you are going to spout Christianity at me, I suggest you take a more honest approach instead of pretending the words mean something other than what is written. Odd how some of it is parable and some of it is literal and only YOU know the difference. It certainly is sobering to listen to you, yes. Reminds me why I rejected his divisive belief system way back when.
Apartheid = moral.
Milk no longer being delivered = less moral. What Has happened to apartheid! Bring it back!
You might find this hard to believe but the people and the government aren't mutually inclusive. That's like saying all the American people are bad because of the actions of Obama. So do not put words in my mouth.
If you don't know the point of parables, then I can't help you. If I made up a story and I wrote about how slaves were treated then that must automatically mean I support slavery according to your logic. I don't get your logic. You aren't being reasonable. In fact, aren't you deeming it a waste of time corresponding with me?
Yes - I am coming to the conclusion that the only reason you asked any questions was to preach your divisive religion at me. Not because you wanted any answers.
You might find it hard to believe, but the people supported apartheid for years.
Regardless of whether they supported apartheid or not, which I don't agree with, there was still more law and order. That cannot be disputed. And moral decay doesn't necessarily mean that the people were all moral back in the eighties out of the goodness of their hearts. It was because there was more accountability. There is a moral decay now because people are getting away with their transgressions.
Nonsense. Apartheid is the perfect example of how wrong you are. As I said - clearly you are not interested in any answers - you just want to preach at me.
I find your lack of morals somewhat disturbing.
There was more "law and order" when the police would just take people out and shoot them with impunity? I disagree.
Your message of accountability is accurate and the idea of a portrait of decline in personal civility, morality and decorum is also correct. There is no expectation of self responsibility or reliance. There are many factors involved here, but the dismantling of the family unit is center to this decline.
Absolutely. Obviously it's nice for women to have a career and that but it has broken up the family unit. Many working mothers don't give children their full attention. Kids need guidance. Often they cannot confide in their parents about their feelings and problems because the parents are too busy to they look for attention elsewhere. They get involved in drugs, for example, Often parents are guilty because they cannot pay attention to their kids so they give them iPhones, instead of their time. This disintegration of the family unit has been slowly happening until it has gotten to the point where kids are unruly and sometimes just plain hooligans.
Ahhh, he called gentiles dogs or at least that's what the bible says.
In Japan people leave their bikes unlocked and there's hardly any theft. Parents let their young children go out and run errands in the middle of Tokyo because they're not worried about someone kidnapping or taking advantage of them.
Oh. And there's also a distinct lack of Jesus in Japan.
Japanese Crime Rate Rising
Theft surely is simple theft. It's a crime as determined by the community in which it takes place. It can be punished by the community, via the courts of law. If the community becomes lax and does not address the crime properly and good time, then the incidence of theft will continue and increase. This is the fault/negligence of the community, nothing to do with a god, or a Jesus.
If the community is even more lax, it will allow white-collar crime to increase to the extent the community really suffers financially and in other ways..... mistrust, despondency, vigilantism, others "getting on the bandwagon, because they thing they too can get away with it."
Learning the skills that lead to good community structure and applying them might be a better way to grow, rather than trusting in an imaginary super-being.
So your time frame is very short?
Kids knowing about abortion, why shouldn't they know?
A 666 number that can hardly be seen and doesn't make sense to anyone, So what? You are seeing things when there is actually nothing.
Okay, now I know what type of person you are. Have you ever heard of the subconscious mind? It picks up things the conscious mind doesn't. What type of person thinks a cartoon with decapitated people is actually nothing?
I didn't actually see the whole nonsense, I stopped where it said one has to see it in slow motion to see the 666.
I have heard of sub conscious, what I have not heard is studies that prove that such transient meaningless symbols can alter behavior (what I know is studies that say it doesn't affect behavior but only later ability to recall)
Decapitating? Is it different from "the passion of Christ"?
There is absolutely a point to my life - the one I give it. Not one from the universe, from an imaginary super-being and not one from you. It comes from me and nowhere else.
I'm sorry you think the world is a worse place now than it was. Perhaps had you been a slave in the 1700's, or persecuted as a witch and burned at the stake you would feel differently. Had you been a peasant in the middle ages or an Arab during the crusades you might find your life a wee bit better now in spite of the atomic threat. If you find the ebola disease a terrific problem, consider when the black death wiped out half the population. Most of the horrors of the dark ages are gone, at least in the developed world, and to complain of potential events now just shows how much we have forgotten.
I am not underestimating the suffering of those unfortunate souls you have mentioned above. But there is no doubt that as time goes on, the evil gets worse. I'm talking also in a spiritual sense. There will come a time when no one will have free will and rights. Evil has not yet unleashed its worst. When I said that the world is getting worse, I'm comparing to what the world was say a 100 years ago. Can you tell me that there has not been a moral decay in society?
A nuclear attack in not a potential event. It will happen. Let's also hope that Ebola is not a repeat of the plague.
Claire, it has occurred to me that each of those worsening factors of our world which you mention.... not one of the affects you personally! How much of your worry comes from externalizing things? Are you experiencing these things close-up, or are they distant from you?
How much fear is caused by the mass-media pumping you with reports of calamity, catastrophe, war, corruption, exotic diseases, terrorism, crime, murder, etc., etc.? Isn't there an ulterior motive behind all these reports? You have pointed to conspiracies in the past. Does there need to be conspiracy, when the gullible, desiring mind finds all its food for thought in the black comedy of "News?"
If you turn on the TV or radio each morning, or read the headlines of the newspapers, it is not surprising that you would view the world as so dreadful as you make out in your posts here.
So, maybe it's what you allow your mind to be fed that makes a difference. Does this point to your obsession with pessimism? Is this one area you could change in your life?
You seem to possess a very negative and fatalistic view of humanity and, quite honestly, I don't know what your point is.
As an Atheist, for a very long time, it never occurred to me to leave the world a better place. It was always my concern and ambition to try to give my wife and children the best place that I knew how. There is great pride and purpose, not to mention an enormous sense of fulfillment in that.
If you are looking for the purpose of human life, I would think that it is a personal decision. What purpose do I want to give to my life. In America that use to be our choice. Now, it would seem that it has become a collective decision, as to what the purpose of your life, is or is not.
I can proudly point to my children, as a product of my purpose and, quite honestly, i do not think that it gets better than that. My children were not raised my a village, as I have always thought that is where idiots came from. And that thought seems to be bearing fruit in looking at our current society.
A better world is not what you do for the world, but what you do and accomplish for yourself.
Yes, my view of the world is negative but that is because I know how evil is destroying it. I'm pleased that you have your family's best interest at heart but is there a point that humans ever exist at all? The planet would have been a better place without us.
What do you mean by what you accomplish for yourself?
Based on a free society, The Bill of Rights, I decide I want to achieve and proceed though my abilities to achieve it.
Better without us? No, just different. There is no better or worse without judgment.
What is the point of our existence? It is what you make of it, you can pretend that this is just a practice run if it make you feel better, but I suggest you get on with life, enjoy it and stop pretending.
Don't deny the world would be a better place without us. Humanity is destroying the world. That's the thing. People think life is here to have a ball. Those who think life is wonderful have no idea what is really happening. Tell the Palestinians to just go on in life and enjoy it.
The truth is, this world is not an enjoyable place. For it to be for humans would mean to shut out the suffering of the world. Sharing in the suffering of the world means you can't just have a ball in life. You have constant sorrow. That doesn't mean we can't feel joy but life is put into perspective: that it is not here to get what we can get out of it.
What do you hope to accomplish in life?
World is a very beautiful place and enjoyable place. It is only for those without the means or those who have depression, it's not an enjoyable place.
Without us world will be different not better.
What indeed you mean by world will be a better place? [Better for whom?] That the carnivores are going to be vegetarian? Well that will be killing the plants so probably everything will get their nutrients from earth and air? Will the natural disasters stop?
And how do you "spiritually refine" yourself, Clair? Look at yourself in a mirror whilst painting the mirror black with a paint brush? By doing that you would only cover up the refection of yourself; you would not "deal with" yourself at all - just prolong the condition of frightened ignorance.
Have you stepped outside of your apartment today with the intention of seeing or smelling a beautiful flower? Have you stooped to place a coin in the hand of a starving child? Have you cast your eyes upon the stars in the sky, and marveled at their unfathomable distance or even the endeavours of Man which allow us to understand their nature?
If your purpose in life is to dwell perpetually upon the unfortunate happenings of this world in order to promote, conversely, a "loving" and fictitious god, then death might well be a welcome release for you.
Great but it will fall either on rock with no water or on waydide and eaten by birds or .......
We have a tendency to disagree, but this time, I am in full agreement with your message. I am often at a loss to see such despair in young people. Life has become so meaningless and empty for so many. It is sad and disheartening.
While I agree with you, I don't think it's ever a good idea to remind someone (young and emotionally unstable) that death may be an option.
Point taken Rad Man, but that was not the intent of the message, of course.
Am I emotionally unstable? Is that because you can't see my point of view? Do you think I'm going to commit suicide now? No, Jesus has conquered all suffering and evil so it will pass in the end.
Claire, please be assured I was not for one moment directing my previous remark to you or anyone about the taking of life. I was simply comparing the enjoyment of this world, as best we are able, to the opposite of life, which is without life.
I see where you are coming from when you speak of the evils of this world, and it would seem on the surface, that we as individuals are incapable of doing much about it.
However, in my own life (the only life I am intimately responsible for) it has been an up-and-down road to travel. Sometimes easy and wonderful; other times down right depressing. Sometimes at ease with myself and all those around me; other times frightened of what life might have in store for me next.
When the opportunity exists right in front of me, to do something good or helpful for another person, obviously there is an obligation upon me to do something about it. When my actions show, or are likely to show, a great benefit in that other person's life, then I rejoice and think life is a wonderful breeze. That is when I can enjoy life. However, I so often fall short of the ideal situation and then can feel rotten for days simply for having not made the grade.
But in general, I am thankful to be alive. Who am I thankful to? Not "God."
We can do something about it. That is by giving the power to the Holy Spirit by serving Him. That disables the power of evil and suffering. If we all did it, there would be no suffering and evil.
I'm glad you are showing a "serving" attitude. We are here to help others. It is great to get enjoyment out of life as long as we don't lose empathy and become impervious to other people's suffering.
No it is because we can see your point of view.
So did Innana, Osiris, Romulus.......
So you mean without this particular Fiction you cannot live happily and you can't imagine how others do without it?
What exactly is "evil"?
I guess so too.
This people are so afraid of death even after concocting the story of eternal life, it seems they can't accept that people can live without such fear.
Just this week, in the company of an amazing group of family, friends and community, we have said goodbye to a beautiful man. He has had a full and meaningful life. He mentored to the young and old, to the married and single, to men and women, but particularly to fellow men.
He did not want a "religious" funeral but, with a sensitivity and caring attitude that coloured his life throughout, he allowed in just enough to honour and respect those who were of a religious disposition. I feel we can all learn from this.... that there is no absolute, perfect explanation for everything in this world, and that we can agree to differ and reach consensus without denigrating each other.
Thanks for your input, Jomine Jose.
For my part I don't bother what they do with my body once I am dead. They can give it to a medical college for students to study for all that I care or may give for organ transplant.
That would be ok for me, provided I can go for a drink at the bar with the students, before they start the wake....why should I miss out on all the fun? Maybe that (fun) is the point of human existence.....
Jonny, I am very aware of the beauty in the world. You cannot know evil without experiencing what is good. You could not compare the two. My purpose, too, is to expose people to reality. What I've found is that atheists do not take evil all that seriously. They don't seem to have a clue about the depth of evil. Most live in a state of ignorance in this regard.
The truth of the matter is that people want to live a life where everything is all well and good. Many purposely disregard dwelling on evil and suffering because it is an inconvenience.
Awareness is key.
The point of a person's life is whatever they decide or discover it to be.
If one has to insist that there is some grand scheme of things, I can't help but feel they aren't entirely in tune with reality
So the reality is that you might as well not exist?
The reality is is that life sucks. Own up to it, rather than inventing some fantasy paradise NO ONE could possibly have any knowledge of. Its always been as simple as that. One rejects reality when they invent new ones to make themselves feel better.
The point of my existence is to live and gain whatever purpose I choose. Death is inevitable. WHy can't you just accept that and get the most out of life?
Keep telling her it is divisive nonsense when she preaches at me. Same as I do with you.
As opposed to preaching fear and hate like yourself?
It might well be more fun than suffering unwelcome preaching in silence?
My "preaching" is almost always in response, don't you think? Or do you find me unbearable? lol
I'm sorry if I'm unbearable. That's definitely not the goal.
If the gospel message isn't uncomfortable and/or annoying to those who choose to reject it, I'm afraid it has not been properly delivered.
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
Who is uncomfortable reading 'the Dracula' or 'Godfather'?
It is people who believe the fiction of bible as truth and then choose to act on it that make it uncomfortable.
No your preaching is almost always not in response. In response to what exactly? Which comes first the chicken or the egg?
No preaching, no pointing out it is divisive nonsense.
I guess you could go thru all the "religious" threads and see how many have been started by me. I would hazard a guess that I have started very few in comparison to most here, therefore, it stands to reason that if I speak about my beliefs, it is in response. If you do not want my response, do not start a thread, but then if you weren't looking for responses from believers, I would say what you are looking for is a platform to preach your beliefs. Is that what you want?
Little wonder your beliefs cause so much conflict. Reason?
Well - you keep acting as you do, I will keep reminding you that this is why your beliefs cause so much division and conflict. See how that works?
I think your responses are repetitive and offer little to nothing to the conversation, but if that's how you want to represent yourself... if that's all you have to offer, then I will learn to bypass your posts without wasting time. When you're ready to dialogue, please let me know and maybe something interesting will transpire.
Well. I think helping you to understand why your beliefs always cause conflict is important. Odd you have never once responded when I have explained it. All you have ever done has been defensive and lied about preaching. That is not exactly a dialogue. Let me know if you are genuinely interested in a dialogue.
Keep preaching the exact same message and I will keep telling you it is divisive and causes conflict. I will even explain - once again - why this is the case.
No preaching = no calling you on it. See how it is always you that starts it?
Had you offered an explanation? I don't recall one. Just the sentence, possibly copied and pasted. If that's where you're at... then I will accept that's all there is and, as I said, pass it by. We're cool.
When I preach to you? No one forced you to respond to my thread.
Who exactly are you preaching at when you start a thread and ask atheists a question?
What is your wish to gain? What does it matter in the end anyway?
to leave the world, country, community or neighborhood a better place. Even if you die there is a selfless mission passed down from generation to generation to leave our descendants in a world better than the ones we lived in. It may be hard for you to understand since you believe in a system that promises immortality and everything you want in the afterlife as long you were a good christian, Muslim, etcetera.
Lots of things. Matters to me. In the end? What end is that?
Give me an example of what you want to gain? Because a lot of times when people want to get the most out of life they make it miserable for others. People through their egotistical and bad actions contribute to the suffering in the world. Even in a small way, all humans contribute to evil that in turns causes indirect suffering to all of mankind.
I want to lie in the sun and read a good book.
That's just pure evil. I hope no trees were harmed.
Got a kindle now, so some electrons got it.
If it's a coconut or mango tree, just be sure it's not the fruit-drop season! Some nut might feel the full force of a falling economy.
Is that all you want to say? Do you take evil seriously?
Not good enough for you? Can't find any evil in that? Sorry. No wonder your religion causes so much suffering. Amazing - you ask a question, I answer and now you attack me.
Like Jesus said to do presumably.
Be honest, was your response meant to be taken seriously? Admit you were being flippant. What do you think the worse kind of evil exists?
I did not attack you. That's a bit weird you see that as an attack.
No - I was not being flippant. Sitting in the sun reading a good book is one of my higher purposes. Yet some how my response was not what you wanted to hear. So - you were not really interested in any answers to your questions - you just wanted to preach about how little you are doing to combat evil.
I see evil still exists - so you have done absolutely nothing at all except preach fear. Well done.
I thought you weren't taking my question seriously. I didn't realize you really meant reading a book is one of your purposes in life. How am I preaching fear? Did I threaten you with hell?
RA, is going to read a book in the sun, what is your plan to combat what you see as evil.
When it stops raining. Is jesus punishing me for not spreading the hatred and fear by making it rain do you think?
Expose it and do everything in my power to not strengthen it. To truly serve Jesus means to seriously disable Satan's power.
It's quite simple, actually. Put your life in Jesus' hands and obey Him and you disable Satan's evil significantly. Take up the cross instead of living life the way we want to. Why? Because our will often leads us to the road to destruction.
So Jesus is telling you to not get a job and to be supported by your parents and to type nonsense on the internet? That's your own voice. The Jesus of the bible would tell you to get a job and give any money left over to the poor.
And you think you're an expert on my life? I've tried for years to get a job. When I finally got one again, my employer later on said he didn't need my services anymore. Do you know what it is like to look for a job and just never find it? Do you have any damn clue? Do you know how many people commit suicide because they cannot find a job? Who do you think you are to judge me and other unemployed people? What kind of person are you? You aren't worth my time.
Once again, my point is: Turn around that word EVIL and become LIVE Claire. The only person who can get you out of the doldrums is your very own self. You can do it. All your life you have learned skills, or at least the rudiments of skills, that if applied now, in your life today, can lift your spirits and help you enjoy life.
All of the past is what enables you to be present in the here-and-now.
That's very good advice Jonny. I'd like to think she gets that advice often, but I've read her posts enough to think it's a deep seeded problem. I'd like to think we can help her, but I have people in my life with similar personalities and I can't help those people let alone her.
Every see As Good as It Gets with Jack Nicholson?
deep seated and Ever see As Good as It Gets with Jack Nicholson.
Doesn't matter how many times I've read it, I don't see the errors until it's too late. I'm still working on that, but I think I've improved. What do you think?
I truly don't mind being shown my grammatical errors, that's how I improve. When you see them please correct me.
It's a very common error b/c deep seeded makes sense too.
Thanks. Do you have a problem spelling "because"?
Nope, it's just faster. I make mistakes too, (some 'cause I'm lazy) spelling, grammar, punctuation... you name it. But the word is deep-seated and I let you know. No big deal.
I've heard that the religious claim that the point of their existence is to leave the world as soon as possible. As we know, the world is always being made worse anyway, by the religious wackos. Why struggle through life, learn to love and then die? Why not just die now? Like Robbin Williams? Just check out with a belt around the neck? Just don't let God see, since Satan may approve and you could be banished to the lower clouds steaming from the molten lava pits of Hades. What's the point of living at all? Life makes a mockery of a good death. If you are a Christian, death is the answer. Seek and you shall find! The sooner life's training phase of learning to be a loser is over, we should strive to be re-united with God one day very soon. Even if we must kill ourselves in the process. After all, death is the ultimate goal of all Christians and even the Muslims. Such a sublime state of decay. Death is a time to spiritually refine ourselves for still more death, as our bones turn to soup in the caskets of love. With eternal death, the living cannot make a mockery of our God any longer. Our deaths will not be in vain, but a purification of our flesh as it rots into the earth.
That puts the nonsense very clearly.
But then some people seem befixed with the death wish, even those with otherwise good logical intelligence.
Could it be linked genetically?
Allow me to emphasize the point that over the past twenty centuries, it has been the Christians who have dominated the rule over most of the known world.
Perhaps, it's time to see what atheists can actually accomplish as far as leaving the world in a better place, given the opportunity. Will you give atheists that opportunity?
Currently, Christians are desperately trying to hold the reigns of their control and influence, especially in places like the US and Africa, but it seems, the more desperate they act, the more converts and brethren they lose, along with their credibility.
From what I read there, Claire, it certainly does appear that you are beginning to seriously question your beliefs. Good for you.
Anyone can claim to be a Christian but do they serve Jesus? We have the Vatican which is Satanic to the core. So you really believe the world could be a better place if atheists ran the world? That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? So atheists are more moral than Christians? No world leader can ever rule as an atheist. World leaders know they must abide by Satan's agenda.
What are you talking about??
So it's not presumptuous to say the world would be a better place if everyone believed in your same invisible super deity?
I also find it interesting how you assert an atheist world leader would be abiding by Satan's agenda, so by extension you are saying all atheists abide by Satan's agenda.
Are you really that ignorant, or are you just not paying any attention to what you say?
Why does there need to be some grand purpose? Why can't we just enjoy the opportunity to live and experience things?
It seems as though in order for you to think the world is a better place, the world needs to be a perfect place, and that's never going to happen. But there are probably a thousand ways the world has gotten better over time. Maybe not the Earth itself - but hopefully that's something that we humans can work on making better over the next couple of generations.
I guess the point, for me, is to enjoy my time here, to get to know people, to learn, to teach, and to be happy. That's enough for me.
It makes me sad that some people take this life for granted because they're always just waiting for the "something after". Look around, there are lots of good and beautiful things for you here. Embrace them while you can.
I understand that there is much beauty in the world and we can feel joy but how can we enjoy life on the whole when others are suffering so much? I think what I say is not understand because I'm feeling pain that comes with serving Jesus.
No one should take this world for granted. However, if one thinks that we aren't here to spiritually and morally refine ourselves then I think they are wasting their time on earth. Often people's idea of having a good time hurts others and that makes the world a worse place.
What would you say to an Ebola victim? That they should embrace life while they can? Enjoy it?
Making up a fantasy after life existence will not change the fact that life s unfair. You feel pain serving Jesus? You are doing it wrong.
How do you know the after life is a fantasy? How am I doing it wrong?
Prove it is not a fantasy please. Until you can do that it remains a fantasy.
Pain is a warning from your mind/body that something is wrong. Did you not know this? Ignoring pain can cause long lasting damage. If you are in pain you should seek help for it.
Can you say to me with absolute certainty that the after life doesn't exist?
You clearly missed the point of pain. I meant emotional pain, of course!
I am as certain as I can be that life ends at death - yes. This is what death means. An after life is nonsense.
The point of pain is a warning that something is wrong or you need to stop doing something. Abusive relationships are included. This is what pain is for, emotional or physical. You are the one that does not seem to understand the point of pain.
When you lose a loved one and grieve, is that your body's way of saying stop doing that?
Awww - so "following jesus," is the same as losing a loved one now?
I think both you and I must agree we are not on the same wave length. You do not understand what I am talking about because you clearly do not know the full reality in this life. I do believe we are wasting each other's time.
Try going back and reading what I actually wrote. That might help.
But yes - you seem to be intent on wasting everyone's time. My mistake - should have known you were not interested in answers - just wanting to preach misinformation at me.
I am not sure how you expect people to take you seriously when you assert that they do not know the full reality of life, when you have no way of knowing either.
If its because of jesus, then I would have to ask you: do other people of other religions know the full reality of life, even though they do not follow the same teachings as you and probably have no idea who jesus is?
I suggest that "Jesus" is only a reality to the extent of the individual's mental desires.
His nature, his character, his appearance, his sexuality, his approachability are all subjective to what each person wants to imagine.
There is no accurate historical record that describes him in detail, outside of what each wishes to believe.
By full reality, I don't mean the secrets of the universe, etc. I am just aware of this evil agenda that is being taken place and what the outcome will be. Nothing special with. You can just do the research but it probably won't be as believable unless you know the supernatural role in life.
You cannot know the true reality unless you know Jesus and Satan. Jesus said:
"I am the way, the truth and the life."
Denouncing other religions and saying only things from yours is truth.
Nice to know you cannot be taken seriously
Only if you know Jesus and Satan will you really know what is going on. I'm afraid that is true. How can we understand world events if we don't know there is a huge supernatural battle between good and evil?
Please stop with the fear mongering. It doesn't work.
So rather than attempting to understand that life sucks and people can do bad things, you assert that there is an invisible supernatural war going on between Jesus and Satan, which coincidentally eliminates all blame from human beings.
You don't find that Convienent at all?
Who says that absolves people of blame? They CHOOSE whether to promote Satan or not and whether to reject Jesus or not.
Most people who "reject" Jesus reject Satan as well. As I said - if it is painful, you are doing it wrong. Remember the point of pain?
Jesus(and satan) is rejected for the same reason you are rejecting deified roman Caesars, Muhammad, Buddha, the hindu gods, sumerian gods...... They are real only for those persons who believe such nonsense but for others they are just fiction (invented by ancient chieftains/priests in line with human nature to control the very same nature).
Evil is prevented not by believing the nonsense story of Jesus or fighting a concept of satan but by education and strong laws and by treating delusions (that call for the existence of such imaginary beings) and psychopathic personality disorders.
Another way of writing that, with a totally different meaning: same words, but different punctuation.
I AM. The Way, the Truth and the Life.
Similarly: "No one comes to the father but by me."
No one comes to the father (i.e., the central consciousness within the family) but by ME (i.e., the individual person, me, myself, my inner consciousness). Getting in touch with ME draws me closer to every other person and living organism, because this ME is integral with every other ME and all of creation... not separate.
Are you "into" that as well, Claire? It sounds to me like you are avoiding anything that is beautiful today, accessible for your enjoyment today and, instead focussing on the dark, gloomy, negative ideas or yesteryear.
If that is your choice, who are we to say you should not? But please don't try to drag others down into that Hell.
Do you have curtains across your windows? Pull them back; let the sunlight in.
Do you have nephews, nieces? Let them into your life; nuture them with good things, especially hope.
Go and have a special hair-do. Brighten yourself and your outlook.
Life is to be lived, not wasted.
Jonny, you completely misunderstand the point I'm trying to make. By exposing suffering and evil and how serious it is does not mean that I don't find beauty in the world or nothing to enjoy. The small things in life give me joy. But we need to face reality. Life is not all roses. We need to know our enemy. Too many people are concerned with their own happiness that they ignore the suffering and evil in the world. That empowers evil because evil thus remains unchallenged.
Sure, life is not all roses.... and it never will be for everyone in the world.
Being pessimistic does not prevent the worst from happening.... it is more likely to foster the worst.
Being optimistic does not make good things happen.... it at least lays the path for good things to happen.
Learning to be aware of the best, being aware of the worst, choosing the best possible and working towards that best gives impetus and purpose to life. Is this not what you are searching for, Claire?
A single person dwelling on darkness can turn the world dark and sombre.
A single person dwelling on goodness and the infinitely possible builds purpose and hope.
Which describes your path?
But Claire, reality does not acknowledge Satan or God, the very same reality we all share and all need to fact up to, including you.
that is still a positive philosophy based on the ideas of scripture. I am not criticising it.
It is incredibly sad and unfair that some people are not given the chance to enjoy life. But why does that mean that no one should? There are a number of productive things we can do to try to make the world a better place... tell me exactly how suffering on their behalf helps them in any way?
I might say that I think treating this life as a prep session for heaven is a waste, but you're entitled to do with your life as you choose. If being bleak and preaching about how awful the world is fulfills you then hey, that's your thing. I won't tell you you're wasting your life if you want to spend it that way. I think it wouldn't hurt to just chill out for a second and think about how you might be able to contribute in a more positive way, though.
I think you make some pretty huge generalizations about being happy - not everyone's idea of a good time includes destructive behaviour. My idea of a good time includes walks with my family, watching movies, traveling and meeting new people, sitting around and playing games with friends, cuddling my dogs, dancing with my daughter, exploring new things... how does any of that make the world a worse place?
Of course I wouldn't say that to an Ebola victim. But are you an Ebola victim? I'm saying it to you because you seem to be an educated person with Internet access and a REALLY depressing view of people/the world.
We are here to be the eyes of the universe. The conscious awareness.
Let's put it this way. You go to school in hopes of getting a job one day, no? Life without a greater purpose is just being stuck in school for the rest of one's life not having the the opportunity to further oneself. That's how I see it.
An idea of an afterlife makes you appreciate this one less because it makes you think you will be forever. Even if you go to hell or heaven the idea of an afterlife gives the impression that consciousness is eternal. You may not know this but people usually appreciate things more when they know how fragile and easily lost they can be. As for the atheists wanting to leave the world a better place, there have been obvious improvements in the standards of living over just the last 100 years and you don't believe me pick up any history book and read a few pages.
Im sure there have been many positive changes made, due to Atheists and Believers alike.
Yes. my point is, its not pointless to want to leave the world a better place just because you will die someday.
Christians should know that life is fragile and short. That is why they make the best of it, or so they should, by wanting to better themselves and to serve others. The objectives for all is to serve. We are not here to better ourselves but to help others in times of suffering and hardship. That is how we spiritually refine ourselves.
It depends where you live when you say the standards of livings are better than a 100 years ago. We have not yet reached hell on earth.
All over the world, obviously where their is not war, the standard of living has increased even in the poorest places of the poorest countries. Christians serve in order to get to heaven. No deed is purely done to benefit others when you know their is a reward for doing so. It would be less selfish to help others purely based on the fact that you want to help them, not because it will lead to a heaven.
I think that is sad to serve others with the sole purpose to go to heaven. Doing good deeds should not be done for rewards. It should come naturally.
Can you give me an example of the standard of living being better even in the poorest of countries?
Claire, I appreciate your view of Christianity, and the benevolence which you speak to. I personally was raised Roman Catholic, just to provide you with a bit of background. I personally value the standpoint of all benevolent people, regardless of their god, or the faith they believe in. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, what is the harm? On the other hand, if they choose not to judge others, what's the point in judging them for their views?
With respect to Christians in America, there has been a lot of good which has come from their missions, churches and overall teachings; in the 21st century. However prior to the 20th, and even in the 1900s Christianity has resulted in the sort of Nepotism which you are encouraging here. If we live in a world where everyone is believing in the same thing, or marginalized for not believing in the status quo, we might as well live in feudal times, or hang with people who think ISIS is cool.
Don't forget, native and aboriginal people worldwide have been generally better off if Christian teachings had not permeated the cultures which they have held so sacred for so long. I do not believe in forced or coerced assimilation. Help others, don't belittle or demean people for not believing in what you believe.
Let people determine whether their own lives will be deemed a vain existence or not. Leave the judgment when the time comes to their own god or yours. Rather than influencing doubt and resentment towards difference, I encourage you to solely try to leave the world in a better place day after day and appreciate the diversity that the world has to offer. That is true enlightenment, and if we work together, we might be able to bring all our viewpoints together to make a beautiful world for tomorrow.
Thank you to all faiths who believe in leaving the world in a better place, death will make no mockery of you anymore than it will the Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Budhhists, or others; who all think they are right. We all come from the same place.
No one can make people believe what they don't want to believe in but as a Christian would you not want to see the world united with Christ out of their own free will? The point of this thread was to see atheist views on life as opposed to Christians. My conclusion is that most atheists see life as something what they can get out of. A Christian life is supposed to be one of serving others. Unfortunately, many Christians do not see it this way. If we all saw the purpose of life as to put others first, and chiefly Christ, then evil would not stand a chance.
Having said that, there are many non Christians who behave better than Christians themselves. I put my view out there but don't expect everyone to see my way. People have the right to live the way they want provided it doesn't harm others.
Jesus himself did not force people to acknowledge Him. He reached out to everyone not just the Jews.
Odd - your conclusion seems to have been made by rejecting everything said to you. Almost like you had already decided to disparage anyone that does not believe your claims.
This is combatting evil how exactly?
Haven't you rejected everything I've said? As you may have noticed, I have agreed with some non believers namely those who think they should be here to serve.
By disparaging, what do you mean? Like I said that death makes a mockery of us without an afterlife?
I have rejected all of your preaching - yes. I don't believe your claims. Now - answer my questions instead of bombarding me with questions and ignoring mine.
Not sure what questions I didn't answer but you might be referring to proof of the after-life.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien … 80195.html
Now you may not take this as concrete proof but it is enough for you not to warrant you are certain there is no life after death.
I've heard that Christians claim that the point of THEIR existence is to live in this world as though it is a training exercise, a prologue to the one coming in the hereafter. Why, if one is CERTAIN that their existence in the here and now exists and is undeniably real, yet MUST admit to at least a shadow of a doubt that life in a conscious state exists after death, would one choose to treat this life as anything other than the single most-important chance at existence he or she will ever have the chance to experience? If "death makes a mockery of life", then religion makes a mockery of death; reducing it's importance, as well as that of this life's. The significance of death is reduced to an idea of a mere change in circumstance: instead of living inside of a physical body with solid earth beneath our feet and dependent upon air to breath and food and water to sustain us, we will live as corporeal spirits with none of the limitations that a physical body impose upon us. And then, what? We will either face eternal damnation-punishment for all of our "sins"-which, depending upon which religion you follow and which iteration can mean eternal fire and brimstone, to something resembling the movie "Hellraiser" to simply wandering the earth alone with your sorrow, with countless versions in-between. The other extreme is, of course, eternal reward. In Heaven, you'll receive "eternal bliss". All the questions of the universe will be answered for you and you'll enjoy every minute of eternity from here on, for ever and ever. There are COUNTLESS ways to contradict that claim, and I won't even begin to do so here. I have already spent hours doing so with many people and I'm certain you've had many similar discussions, as well.
This all seems to me to be a way to make death more palatable. It is a frightening prospect, after all. I remember the day I realized that one day, I. will. die. I remember that I sat in that spot in my bedroom for at least the next two hours, letting it sink in. I was mortified! One day, I will cease to exist, and there is nothing to stop that! Scientists recently were able to explain that idea to a chimpanzee. It sank into a severe depression that lasted several days! I don't blame the poor animal. I don't think those scientists had the right to do that. I respect the quest to sate our curiosity, but to subject an animal to that kind of mental anguish just to for the sake of seeing if they could do it was cruel in my eyes. Religion makes death an easier pill to swallow. We miss our loved ones when they pass on. Religion tells us that we'll see them again in Heaven. We deeply fear our own demise. Religion reassures us that we needn't do so, but in fact we should rejoice and look forward to a time when we can "walk side-by-side with Jesus". And then they give us their conditions. This is where religion becomes a tool with which to control the populace. "Would you like to go to Heaven?" "Would you like to see your mommy and daddy again?" They ask these rhetorical questions and then provide THEIR answers: Then give US money. Then do for US what we ask you to do. Vote for the men and women WE want in office, vote for the laws which keep US safe and protect US from answering to the law for OUR short-comings.
No, Atheism does not make a mockery of us; religion mocks us. Secularism encourages us to think for ourselves AND to take pride in our own accomplishments, rather than "give it god". It also puts us in a position to take responsibility for our own actions rather than blaming "Satan" when things go wrong. It's up to US to make our lives count for something.
I would be dishonest if I said I have a shadow of doubt that consciousness exists after death. Treating this earth as a spiritual refining process does not mean one cannot enjoy anything in life. What I don't like is people seeking their own happiness as priority and being apathetic to other people's suffering. That spiritually degrades a person. Serving Jesus does make a "mockery" of death. The resurrection is the biggest triumph in Christianity. To water down this life's importance is not wise. Jesus didn't see His time on earth as a waste of time. We know, however, that He did not see this life as an opportunity to get what He could out of it. Why? Often this fuels the ego and ego separates us from God. An egotistical person puts themselves first over others.
I'm not sure how you can contradict the claim of heaven and hell?
I think many people would welcome the idea of oblivion. Evil people would not be held accountable for their actions. Why would people be afraid of oblivion? It's not like they are aware of anything. I think you may have felt mortified about oblivion after death because you thought that perhaps you deserved more?
Yeah, often I think religion has been one of the biggest blights humanity has ever faced. It is certainly a tool for control. Christianity is meant to be this simple: Love the Lord and your neighbour as yourself. But the Christian religion has made it far more complicated. To twist what Jesus said and the truth to exploit others is just plain sick. I've been disillusioned with the Church.
I said death makes a mockery of non believers. I mean, isn't that maybe why you were mortified? As much as I appreciate people's right to live the way they want, provided it doesn't hurt others, it actually is not good for us to take pride on our own accomplishments. What I mean by that is usually accomplishments means furthering themselves in an earthly way. Success, money, etc. Desire for those things corrupt people. People tend to trample over others to get what they want. To make them successful in life. Anything that betters me as a person is due to God. Without Him, I could not be a better person in a spiritual way. I know that without God I would be seeking my own glory. This is very dangerous as ego tends to make us sin. The Satanic ideology is the complete opposite to what Christianity is meant to be that is to come to serve like Jesus did. The Satanic ideology is:
"Do what they wilt shall be the whole of the law." - Aleister Crowley
In other words, do whatever you want to further yourselves. You are your own god. What is good for me is what I can get out of others and what is bad is whatever impedes me. Disturbingly enough, a lot of people who AREN'T evil follow this ideology. This is why evil is so powerful.
No one can have a Satan-made-me-do-it mentality. Yes, he influences people to do evil but it is up to us to reject it. That is the responsibility we must take. Don't go blame the drug dealer if a drug user gets bust.
All law partcularly Western law evolved out of Christianiry and the Bible.
....also the bad laws; and the superstition; and the mind control; and the self-righteousness; and the burning at the stake; and the false authority of priests, etc., etc.
Oh...and halting the aquisition of new knowledge where convenience dictated it.
Flying monkeys that shoot lasers out of their eyes evolved from lazy pigs.
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