Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians?

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  1. profile image0
    Chasukposted 12 years ago

    But more Buddhists?

    1. HarperDavis profile image61
      HarperDavisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Define "better".

      How would more Buddhists make the world a "better" place?

      Refer to the Asian (specifically, Indian) caste system, namely that of the Dalit ("untouchables").

      The very idea of a particular belief system is just that. Peoples' interpretation of it is what causes much grief.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Doesn't India's caste system fall under Hinduism? And even then Hinduism doesn't encourage castes in and of itself... it just happens to be practiced in areas where castes exist... same with a lot of other religions.

        1. HarperDavis profile image61
          HarperDavisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Dalits are historically Hindus persecuted by Buddhists.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            *Shrugs* Everyone's got to be persecuted by someone I guess... I've never heard of  Buddhists persecuting anyone but if you are going to be persecuted by someone then I guess you could do worse than a group of pacifists.  I do have to wonder though why so many of the untouchables are converting to Buddhism from Hinduism if they are being so persecuted.

            1. HarperDavis profile image61
              HarperDavisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              *****That's the point.*****

              This question of who's better for whom, or, who we could do without, is moot.

              Also, an "untouchable" is born as one. Dalits are not converting in droves, though of course converts exist, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand.

              Way to red herring.

              Again, the question of who's better off is no question at all, no matter which example I present.

          2. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Actually, no. Dalits have converted to Buddhism in great numbers. Dalis have certainly endured persecution, but primarily at the hands of Hindus.

        2. sen.sush23 profile image59
          sen.sush23posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Melissa, sensible woman, why didn't I meet you earlier? Kindly tell them to get out of that E.M. Forster world of Hinduism as the 'dark, mysterious cave' and a sly brahmin taking his tea away from untouchables, and wake up to realize that, that was fiction of a dim-witted man who spoke before he understood, but saved his name by suggesting that it was all a dream. Must a debate be tainted with such imaginative parley?!

      2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        If more people practiced Buddhist teachings and Christ's teachings, the world would be a better place for sure.  I think both have great things to offer.  So I still find the question odd, unless you are defining Christianity by its heretics like so many do.  In honesty however, if just Jesus' teachings were followed, this world would be an excellent place to be.

        1. Crissylite profile image76
          Crissyliteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I like your comment a lot. Christian means Christ like; one who genuinely follows Christ. Not everybody who call themselves a Christian is actually Christlike or born again, and there are many hypocrites out there.  I personally think true believers are like "salt" (adding flavor) and "light." My answer to the question...No!

      3. sen.sush23 profile image59
        sen.sush23posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Though I don't agree with the question raised in this forum, but the caste system is in Hinduism, and it is not anyway part of the religion, and no way any where near Buddhism..

      4. sen.sush23 profile image59
        sen.sush23posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Oh spare me. Why do you have to talk about India as a religion? Can't you get out of that colonial hangover of Orientalism? ...!!!

    2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
      EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Nah, you would still have to many religions fighting each other.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yes but that would have to be the coolest fight ever... a world of Buddhists standing around doing absolutely nothing but looking flustered. Watching a war among pacifists has to be about as exciting as watching paint dry.

        1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
          EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Not all religions are pacifists, in fact, most aren't. The world would be no better just because of a different dominating religion.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It depends on what the new dominating religion would be...  as I said before a world full of Jains would be amazing... a world full of Buddhists wouldn't be too bad... 

            I would say a world full of my own religion (UU) would be wonderful but we would never stop debating and nothing would get done except LOTS of volunteer work...  On the other hand Gay marriage would be universally permitted. Abortion would be legal but the death penalty wouldn't be and there would be virtually no pollution... Of course we would all be driving a Prius and Burkenstocks would be universal footwear.

            See?  When you make across the board "all religions suck" statements you fail to take into account that 1.  Religions are extremely varied and 2. Your idea of sucking is likely someone else's idea of Utopia.  Which leads us to the "There can never be a Utopian society because Utopia means different things to different people" argument... And eventually that comes back to the "Atheists wanting no religion in the world are essentially selfish despots who would shape the world to suit their idea of perfect"...

            Of course you could substitute "Atheists" for "Christians" or "Muslims" or any other group that would like to see another group gone.

            1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
              EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I'm not saying do away with all religion either. Religion gives hope, and hope is a good thing. I just think an equal spread of all religions (so that they could keep each other in check) instead of a dominating religion, would be better.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                *Smiles* And for that even spread to occur there would need to be more Buddhists!  Ha!  I win!  Nee Ner!

                1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Technically you would need fewer Christians and more of the smaller groups. This may include Buddhists as I'm not sure how many of them there actually are.

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I wonder why people keep talking about Christianity as a violent religion?  We actually have violent religions in this world.  We have many Christians being killed for their Christianity by others that hate them for being Christian. 

                It seems that the suggestion that Christianity is a like a Crusade from long ago, has really sunk into the minds of people.  I just want to remind people that even the Catholics have backed off of the idea of Crusades.   

                Truth is, the pacifistic Christians being truly martyred are being left out of the mix oddly in this whole discussion.  That is sad, and their very real factual examples show what real Christianity is.  You don't hear about it often.

            2. MarleneB profile image82
              MarleneBposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Awww, MelissaBarrett, I knew I'd find you in this forum. You always shoot it straight from the... eh hem... hip! I have learned never to dispute your words because you are always armed with so much logic that you hit the nail on the head every time.

              My only defense in this forum topic is that we all should show some compassion. I mean, why should I wear a red dress when the blue one fits me better? Am I hurting anyone if I wear a purple dress? Why do I have to be labeled?

              Melissa, YOU get it. I think I'm going to go into the forums and refer to your comments saying, 'What SHE said..." That's still participating in the forum, right?

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I've already got someone saying "yeah what she said" of course I say "yeah what he said".... soon no one is going to be saying anything...

                Come think of it that might be a bit of Utopia in and of itself smile

                1. MarleneB profile image82
                  MarleneBposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Yep. I hear you!

    3. Ruben Rivera profile image60
      Ruben Riveraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      A lot less people period.

      1. Axialchateau profile image61
        Axialchateauposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        about 1/3 less smile

        1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
          ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi Ax,

          Who do you suggest gets eliminated? people that is...

          1. vector7 profile image62
            vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I want to know the suggestion cooresponding to the 1/3 elimination as well.

            Who goes first guys?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I would say you but something tells me that Buddhism would suffer for it.

              1. Axialchateau profile image61
                Axialchateauposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                According to various sources approximately 1/3 of the world believes in Christianity.  Therefore, if all Christians were to be eliminated, there would be about 2/3 the amount of people, or 1/3 less.

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Not trying to be rude, but suppose 1/3 of the other people were eliminated leaving 1/3 others an 1/3 of the world still 'Christian' which no doubt includes lots of different denominations

                  Why would you assume that all the Christians would be the 1/3 eliminated? I'm not a Christian per se, but

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Wow... thank you for assuming that I can't do basic fractions.  And for the assumption that the only way to reduce the amount of Christians is to kill them.

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Melissa, I'm sure she did not mean it that way--that you can't do math. I think she was just trying to add her thoughts to the 'war'.

                    Let's keep our calm like Jesus surely would. Seriously, I do not think she meant anything by it.

    4. Paul Wingert profile image60
      Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The world would be a better place without religion to begin with. Some people say religion is harmless. Tell that to the victoms of the countless wars, witch hunts, and other wholesale slaughter due to their beliefs. Then there's the "multipy and be fruitful belief. Now that there are about 6 billion people on earth. At this rate, things aren't exactly looking up in the future.

      1. calynbana profile image79
        calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I don't think religion is the problem, I think our pride is the problem. The I am right and you better not oppose me attitude :p

    5. feenix profile image60
      feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians and more Buddhists?

      That question is dripping with bigotry. It is is the same league as a question that asks, Would the world be a better place if there were fewer blacks and more whites?

      1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
        EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It's no less in it's bigotry then being against homosexuality because the Christian bible says to be.

        1. feenix profile image60
          feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Say whaaaat?

          1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
            EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            There's no whaaaat to it. The bible says to kill homosexuals. It's not hard to comprehend. It also tells you to kill all practitioners of witchcraft and any woman who marries and is not a virgin. That's just three groups of people that the Christian Bible wants killed off, 2 of which Christians tend to openly bash and fling hate towards. All your attempting to do is throw people off topic by talking about how it's dripping with hate and bigotry, yet all it really serves to do is try to cover up the Christian hate and Bigotry being thrown around.

            1. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              OT.

              1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Not all Christians follow Jesus. Most of them Cherry-Pick what to follow when it's convenient and serves them or their cause, best.

                1. calynbana profile image79
                  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I give up on the title of being Christian. I follow Christ :p I am getting tired of saying they aren't being Christian haha

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    LOL that's what I did... doesn't work.  *Smiles* I have no problems with your personal beliefs.  The argument I was making was along the lines of not being able to disown members of a group that you belong to just because they aren't acting the way you think they should. 

                    To illustrate: I can't disown my family when they embarrass me so that gives me a sense of responsibility in their guidance.  That makes me more aware of what is going on with them...  If my sister, for example, is showing signs of extreme hatred for a group and I know she's bought a gun then I kinda need to do something about it.  If I don't and she does something stupid then I have to own that.  That way if I see my cousin doing the same thing I am more likely to stop HIM.  I can't say... oh well a TRUE member of my family wouldn't do that. 

                    So... are you your brother's keeper?  If those who follow Christ are your brothers and sisters in faith are you not at least responsible for trying to watch over them?  Are you not responsible for monitoring the conditions within your faith that might cause someone to act in a way that THEY think is part of God's plan?  Take our sister (?) in faith rdcast here.  She obviously believes in Christ and reads the bible...  That at least marginally makes her Christian.  She is also just as obviously slightly unhinged.  If she does something stupid when the world fails to end on her schedule is it at least marginally our responsibility?  Or do we just say that she wasn't a real Christian?

            2. feenix profile image60
              feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I said that the question that initiated this forum is dripping with bigotry and I made no mention of the Bible or any of its contents.

              So, why are you talking about the Bible?

              1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Because everyone so far that has mentioned the question being full of hate and bigotry has been Christian. I apologize if your not, but the point does stand regardless.

                1. feenix profile image60
                  feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I am a stone-cold, hardcore Christian.

                  That said, and regardless of what is written in the Bible, the question that kicked off this forum does, in fact, demonstrate hatred and bias towards Christians.

                  And as far as I am concerned, anyone who is biased towards others because of their beliefs is one who is also biased towards others because of their skin color or ethnicity.

                  1. profile image0
                    Sooner28posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Yeah because beliefs are inherently part of the physical make up of a human being and definitely not a choice.  So much for personal responsibility eh?

                    According to your logic, no one can disagree with anyone!  This is a ridiculous argument.

                  2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                    EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    This coming from a Christian?

                    Christians are Notorious for not being accepting of others beliefs, they aren't even accepting of others sexual preferences.

                    However, I'm not against anyone's beliefs. I'm against forcing beliefs on people. I'm against religious views affecting other people. I'm against indoctrinating young people into religion when they should be free to choose their own religion. I'm against all the hate and bigotry you find in the bible. What people choose to believe is up to them, but what the Christians tend to do towards others shows a complete LACK of acceptance and tolerance. They would rather shove their beliefs on the world then let people make a decision on their own. And of course, everything has to be turned into hate towards them. A discussion in an Atheist forum can't possibly NOT have anything to do with them.

                  3. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Bias cannot be inferred from my question.  My question was phrased with neutrality in mind, in fact.

                    For centuries, Buddhism was the dominant religion, even in India, where Hinduism dominates now. My question was actually inspired by a comment from a Christian friend from New Dehli, who asked me, philosophically, whether I thought his country would have experienced more peace in its history if it had remained Buddhist. I simplified the question and changed it to be more relevant to the participants of these forums.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Einder, it was directed at Christians.  Would it read as ok by you if it said, "Would the world be a better place if there were less of those that believed and thought as Einder does?'

              2. profile image0
                Chris Hughposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Atheist here. I think the question sounded bigoted and hateful. It made me imagine someone wondering if killing a bunch of Christians or wishing them out of existence would make the world better. I'm not saying that was the asker's intention. Maybe he was asking if the world would be a better place if a lot of Christians converted to something else? I dunno.

                A lot of Christians are good people. I don't dislike Christians. I don't like fundamentalists of any religion.

                I think the world would be a better place if everyone would just chill and concentrate more on being good and less on making everyone else good.

                Just a thought, and I don't actually mean this as criticism of anyone, just my random thoughts.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Chris, I totally appreciate your fair post there, and love that I can totally agree with an atheist on something here.  Thanks for being so fair minded and explain why you think what you do, in a nice and fair way.

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    oceans, I can understand your feelings about the original post. I felt a bit that way myself coming in, but as I read through the responses and acknowledgments from the O.P., I realized it certainly was not his intent to speak hatefully about any group.

                    Once I understood that he was actually creating a dialogue and attempting to truly understand others' thoughts on this, I found it easier to participate in the discussion.

                    Don't know if that helps or not.

                2. PhoenixV profile image68
                  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree. The fact that they didnt immediately use abusive ad homs and personal attacks towards your opinions is its en vogue here to use hate speech towards Christians, no matter how innocent it may or may not have been "crafted".

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Chris said... 

                        Chris Hugh wrote:

                        "Atheist here. I think the question sounded bigoted and hateful. It made me imagine someone wondering if killing a bunch of Christians or wishing them out of existence would make the world better."

                    This is more than obviously true.  He doesn't have a persecution complex either.  Its a fact, taken at face value, that you can't miss when you visit these forums.  You don't SEE the part about the Buddhism unless you click on it, and the suggestion keeps on being put out there, again and again.  We all KNOW that some do wish this kind of world, as they have said it outright, or in not so many words. 

                    Of course it CAN BE viewed as bigoted and hateful.  It did right off the bat, as I KNOW these forums, just glancing through...its not reflective of real people in the real world, but still its not right that the ideas are allowed to spread, that are so awful, because that does make impact over time. 

                    Being sorry that some took it the way it looks, doesn't make the problem go away.  Having people use ad hom attacks and putting others down and fighting hard to defend that doesn't help, but it DOES shed light on the value of those people's held worldviews.  They are failing them.  Its not a good worldview that allows  for even the suggesting of what the OP says, nor the behavior of many here being supported.  It is an evidence of its own.  That is something at least, to me.

    6. Jesus was a hippy profile image61
      Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Oh yes, definately.

    7. A Thousand Words profile image70
      A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      LoL. Even the Buddhist would tell you no, Chasuk. Life needs balance. Many buddhists are passive people. A world full of passive people would never get anything done. Now, if your question was would the world be a better place if the whole world wasn't influenced buy capitalist, greedy, money hungry, work-work-work, time is money views, obsessed with whats next (technologically), who's the next big thing, etc, etc, and there were fewer Christians and more buddhists? Then I'd say... maybe.  But "buddhist" is a hard term to define 100%. Life probably would be less stressful.

      I have known peaceful Christians, let me say that. However, the more deeply you become indoctrinated with the "Word," and believe your becoming closer to the "Holy Spirit," the more you become convinced that you must share Christ with the rest of the world, and most Christians don't understand that "dust the sand of off your feet and move on" scripture when people don't receive the message, instead of trying to force it on them with legislation from the gov't, etc.

      1. Chris Neal profile image77
        Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Point taken. I know I've been guilty, whether you were thinking of me when you wrote that or not. However, Jesus did tell us to make disciples of all the nations. But just because some people like to argue doesn't mean I should be one of them.

        Serious question, though. When we (Christians)see, not just anti-social or unBiblical behavior, but actual legislation that tells us we have to accept things we know are wrong, or even support them (and I'm not pulling specific examples so please don't reand anything specific into it,) should we keep quiet? Should we not try to influence the laws?

        1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
          EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          That depends Chris, should you be trying to force your beliefs on to anyone else? A persons sense of right and wrong (most of the time, but not always) is tied to their religious beliefs. Something Romney and Sanatorum have made abundantly clear this election year. Should people be subject to one's religions standards of right and wrong? Or should they be subject to what can be accepted as right and wrong by all sides?

          1. Chris Neal profile image77
            Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Name one thing that can be accepted as "right and wrong by all sides?" Even if you eliminate the extremes, there aren't that many things.

            And everybody is subject to somebody's standard of right and wrong. If marriage to multiple persons becomes the law of the land, should we accept it? Or should we try to change it if we know it's wrong? Should we shut up and disappear, or should we try to influence people and persuade them why it's wrong?

            Many people think that holding a Christian viewpoint means I'm trying to shove it down their throats, but think nothing of trying to shove their viewpoint down mine. Is that okay?

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              There is a difference that you aren't quite getting...

              Legalizing Gay marriage does not force you to marry the same sex.  Not legalizing it forces gays to not be married.  One gives a choice and the other gives no room for any point of view but yours.

              1. Chris Neal profile image77
                Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Legalizing abortion does not force me to get an abortion. Legalizing prostitution does not force me to pay some poor woman for sex. Am I getting this right? What you're saying is that, as long as I keep my head down and don't make waves but don't actually participate in these activities, then when Jesus asks me "Did you read My Commands?" and I say, "Yes," He'll say, "Well, that's okay. At least you didn't actually do anything..."

                Do you still think I heard a voice, BTW?

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  *Blinks*  OK... now I have to go back through 37 pages or so of conversation to find out what the hell the circumstances of that statement were and how in the hell it is related to the current conversation... was that even in this thread?

                  Anyway... I'll give you my gut reaction and say that if my faith depended on your conversations with Jesus then my conversation would go:

                  Jesus:  When you saw people being made miserable by people forcing their opinions in MY name did you try to help them?

                  Me:  No.

                  Jesus:  And when you saw two people in love who wanted to be together forever did you try to help them?

                  Me: No.

                  Jesus:  And when you saw the suffering of babies born into the world to live in constant physical agony instead of sending them back into my arms did you fight to keep them in terrible pain?

                  Me: Yes.

                  Jesus:  Even after I gave you a child that suffered physically every day of his short life until I stepped in and brought him home you would still fight to force that on other children?  You would still fight to make other mothers suffer through the pain of watching their child slowly die in front of them every day for their entire existence as you did?

                  Me:  Yes because other Christians said that's what you wanted.

                  Jesus:  Is that how you would want to be treated?

                  Me: No.

                  Jesus:  Did you read my Commandments?

                  And yes... I still believe that hearing voices is a sign of mental illness.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image77
                    Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes? I'm listening to you...

                    Which is more than you've done for me...



                    You're Bible says that? Which translation is that? The New World I Don't Care What You Think I Just Hear What I Want To Hear Translastion?



                    I believe you.



                    I bet your Jesus also tells people to commit suicide if it gets too hard. Never mind that God created humans in his image, and that He made it clear often that it was not for human beings to decide who is and who is not worthy of life.



                    Your Jesus is indeed cruel. I'm glad the real Jesus is not like yours.



                    You: Yes, but since you couldn't possibly have meant what you actually said, I decided  that I know better.

                    At least that's how the conversation would end if you followed it to it's logical conclusion.




                    Badum-BUM! RIM SHOT!

                    Although I'm certainly capable of sarcasm, I don't actually usually talk to people in forums like this. But, you've proven that you're not really listening, so I could say almost anything. However, let me just point out a few things, all of which you would know if you had ever just read my hub -

                    1) My wife has Stage IV uterine cancer
                    2) We have three kids, two of whom are special needs. My daughter is severely autistic.
                    3)I have never heard voices.

                    I think I've had a chance to really think this thing through, whether you've already decided in your head that I have or not.

                    Are you this much fun and easy to talk to when you're working in the mental health field?

                  2. Chris Neal profile image77
                    Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Okay.

                    God is  trying to tell me something, and He's using you to do it. I would just like to point out a few things.

                    1) My wife has Stage IV uterine cancer.
                    2) We have three children. One of them is mildly autistic, one of them is severely autistic.
                    3) I have never heard voices.

                    Had you ever taken five minutes to read any of my hubs you would know this.

                    Never assume.

    8. Chris Neal profile image77
      Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Obviously, it depends on what you mean by "better world."

      And also how you view Christians.

      My answer would be "no." But then I think the world would be a much better place if more of the people who actually call themselves Christian took their faith more seriously and lived it out better.

      1. Rhiannon Schaefer profile image60
        Rhiannon Schaeferposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I agree. I know many good people who are christian: fair, don't harshly judge, don't shove bibles down your throat at the dinner table. But I also know an alarming number of christians that would sooner wrap a rope around your neck and hang you in their back yard than have a decent conversation with someone different.

        It isn't a question of fewer Christians. It's a question of more people needing to stick to and actually KNOW about the religion that they claim to uphold.

        1. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Amen!

    9. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What if the question to this forum read,

      "Would the world be a better place if there were less Atheists, or Buddhists, and more of _______?"

      How about, "Would the world be a better place if there were less Jews?"

      Why is this kind of question even allowed on Hubpages?

      Think about how horrifying it is......  What is the suggestion, and can we ask that about any other group and get away with it?  Why is this allowed here?

      Its amazing and alarming.

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Just put on your breastplate of faith and take up the sword of the Living Word, and march your little self,PROUD OF YOUR SAVIOR, into battle for HIS GLORY!

      2. profile image0
        Chris Hughposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That really puts it in perspective. Would the world be a better place if there were fewer black? Whites? Asians? Persons of mixed race?

        Thanks for the clear thinking.

        I think it's an interesting question though. It is something to think about, why so many people associate Christianity with something bad.

        I guess not all offensive questions are bad. Maybe some offensive things make us think and exchange ideas.

        1. profile image0
          Sooner28posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Why would you equate something inherent about a human being to a particular belief they ascribe to?

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Chris, I think it is because many are very against Christianity for personal reasons.  There also are a lot of lies, assumptions, assertions and untruths and partial truths being used to paint Christianity in a particular light, that isn't reflective of what Christianity actually teaches.

          This has caught on, and there is a true encouragement of some groups out there to demonize Christianity in particular.  Its actually an amazing and great worldview, if you know what Jesus taught.  The people quote things they hate about it, that Jesus would also hate about it!  This is a clear sign to anyone thinking fairly, that they often are actually on the side of Jesus, thus Christianity.  Very often, they have problems with particular people or groups and actions by those that said they were Christians, but acted opposite of Christianity.  All of us should have problems with those people though.  We are actually on the same page very often, and its what is askew, that needs to be looked at, then why. 

          I think Christianity also happens to answer the reasons why, ironically.  That is something that either just "is" or not, and that I can't make true or not.  My hope for all people is that they look fairly and squarely at all the facts for their own sake.  So many opposing views cannot be right.  Some are wrong, but some are being deceived big time.

          1. profile image0
            Chris Hughposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I see a lot of nasty rhetoric against Christians nowadays and it worries me.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I see a lot of rhetoric against Christians for certain beliefs not as a group in general.  That's actually a pretty specific distinction that's fairly important.

              1. profile image0
                Chris Hughposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I tend to see a lot of hatred against "right wing" people, Republicans, "Teabaggers," Christians and basically anyone who doesn't toe the line of whatever is fashionable at the moment. I live in California, can you guess?

                If people are complaining about certain Christian beliefs they don't agree with and not hating on Christians as a whole, I wouldn't even call that rhetoric. Nothing wrong with challenging stuff you don't agree with.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  My guess on that is because Christianity is the -slightly- dominant religion.  It also has a lot to do with the Christian group themselves putting their religion as the basis for their objections. 

                  If a group of people got together and said "we don't like gays because it's icky"
                  then that would be one thing.  These groups are saying "We don't like gays because our God says he doesn't."  After a while the groups they are opposing have no choice to go after the faith because the "Christian" groups are setting it up so their opposition has to go through God to get to them.

                  That spreads...as such things often do... to the loudest and most noticable representatives of a faith being the only voice of that faith being heard.  Unfortunately that makes the Westbourgh Baptist Church and Rush Limbaugh the voice of Christianity. 

                  It's not completely fair but it is understandable.  If Christianity wants a different representative though... it's going to be up to them to throw one up there.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I do also.  I saw your other response as well, and I was born and raised in California.  I have lived in a few different states and seen a lot.  What gets me most are the distortions and untruths.  If people could attack legitimate things, that would be so much better.  I tend to agree with them!

              I disagree for instance on murdering and killing people, I disagree on priests or anyone molesting children, I disagree on tv evangelists swindling money from people.  So would Jesus.  Its the strong need I sense from people to go after things that are distortions and not even true.  Its when the discussion gets to be about something that isn't even true of Christianity, but is assigned to it and then this rage grows.  Not a whole lot explains it, but its not without complete explanation.  I hope this  makes people think more deeply about things.

      3. Chris Neal profile image77
        Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        On the other hand, it is a good place to tell people about Jesus!

    10. Civil War Bob profile image60
      Civil War Bobposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well, let's see...there would be more illiteracy if you removed all the Bible translation societies who also teach people to read and write...obviously, with an ulterior motive.
      There would be fewer deep wells dug in Africa and South East Asia by Christian organizations, so disease, drought, and starvation would be increased.
      Fewer people would be available to meet hunger/disaster needs through groups like World Vision and Samaritan's Purse.
      There would be fewer groups training prostitutes viable skills to get out of the trade and meeting the needs of the children of those folks; particularly in India.
      There would be fewer groups to help people in 100s of refugee camps all over the world.
      No...the world would not be a better place.

      1. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I love Bible translation societies. Half of the languages on earth didn't exist in written form before Bible translation societies decided to devise those written forms. I've known few people in my life as dedicated as the men and women who have labored for their entire lifetimes creating new dictionaries. I've known a few of them who were non-believers, by the way, at least they would have been considered non-believers by those Christians who insist on a literal resurrection.

    11. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
      j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The world would be a better place if there were fewer dogmas. Scripture should stimulate thought, not dictate it.

      1. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        A great point. Thank you. smile

    12. Sally's Trove profile image100
      Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians?" was the original question.

      No and no, to both questions. People are people. Labels divide what it means to be human into fractiousness. We all breathe the same air. And too soon, the air will be gone. Good for us...we'll suffocate soon enough, regardless of our religious beliefs.

    13. Josak profile image60
      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      To look at this slightly differently I would like to take this question to mean that if all the people who are now Christian were instead Buddhist would the world be a better place. The answer? Absolutely yes.

      Why? Because Buddhism is tolerant and non violent, Buddha himself stated that he was not sure if his path was the best path and that it was quite possible that other religions would work for you but that he had tried this particular path and it had worked for him and might work for you, Buddhism would have absolutely no time for imposing it's views on others, so we would have gay marriage and all the Buddhists would simply respect that as someone else's business , we would not have restrictions on stem cell research which hold back progress and cost lives and we would not have a continent with rampant poverty and HIV where the dominant religion told people to not wear condoms etc. etc.

      Logically there is no doubt that if there were Buddhists instead of Christians the world would be a much better place. I say this impartially since I am a follower of neither and a student of both.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Christianity is tolerant and non violent, and if you doubt it, look at its teachings.  Jesus didn't promote violence at all, and instead violence was put upon him and he died.  Same with his followrs.

        If you are referring to particular people that are saying they are Christians but acting opposite of what Christianity teaches, it only affirms the fact in a way.  I won't assume what you are talking about for sure, but I know know what Christianity teaches.  Its a common error in judgement, and many make sweeping statements about Christianity but that aren't based in fact when you look more closely.

        1. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          We are not talking about the doctrine, we are talking about whether it would be better if there were more Buddhists and fewer Christians which means their actions count, Buddhism is doing lots of good and no harm, Christianity is doing lots of good and lots of harm. Christians are doing bad things in the name of their faith Buddhists are not therefore Buddhists are better for the world than Christians. Simple.

          1. A Thousand Words profile image70
            A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yea, you know there are certain buddhists that set themselves on fire in protest to something; that is the epitome of selflessness in order for justice to be realized.

          2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            A lot more people across the world benefit from Christians than Buddhists.  You would see society suffer for sure, if you took out Christians.  I am not convinced that all Buddhists do no harm, and not convinced that as many Christians are doing horrible things as you claim either. 

            Buddhists may be peaceful, but they don't seem to give to others and to the community as whole the way Christians do.  Yes, there are different sides, and I have nothing against Buddhists, except that it doesn't work or win out as a worldview compared to Christianity.

            1. Josak profile image60
              Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              On the contrary Buddhism has just as strong an emphasis on charity.

            2. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
              j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I recommend you take some time to study Buddhism, oceansunsets. Based on your statements, I can only assume you know next to nothing about it.

              Let me summarize Christianity and Buddhism in a single word each:

              Christianity: "Repent!"
              Buddhism: "Accept."

              One is emotional and guilt-ridden and the other is dispassionate and intellectual. You're welcome to criticize that, if you like, but I can tell you who I'd rather spend eternity with. I don't even have to think about it. So, yes, it does win out as a worldview compared to Christianity. For lots of people. Billions, in fact.

    14. Crissylite profile image76
      Crissyliteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This is quite a discussion; a good one. I must admit though, that when I first saw the question without the sub question, I immediately thought of Hitler. I think this type of thinking (would the world be better off without a certain type of people) can be dangerous.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Not always... if a group of people consistently do harm to society in general it is not dangerous at all to imagine a world without them.  As a matter of fact those questions drive beneficial changes.

        For example:  Would the world would be better without pedophiles?

        For the majority of people the answer would be yes. (Pedophiles would likely have a dissenting opinion.)

        The questions that follow the original question are the questions that are most interesting to know the answers to... however if we stop asking the questions because (as would be the case in the question above) the pedophiles are offended then the debate never goes any deeper.

        1. Crissylite profile image76
          Crissyliteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          A pedophile describes  a person who has a certain behavior and/or dysfunctional thinking. You probably know that It does not exactly count as an ethnicity, culture, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc. All pedophiles do harm. All Christians...most Christians and the groups mentioned above do not.

          Wishing that no one would have pedophilia tendacies is one thing. Wishing that people would not exist because of things they have done is another. (I could go on, but it would be way off topic here.) And if this type of question would cause people to want to annihilate all pedophiles (thinking that there is no need for them to exist), it is certainly dangerous. But maybe that's the counselor in me talking. Most acts of oppression, genocide, etc. start off with this type of thinking. In my opinion, this statement should not be used at all.

          As a whole, Christians do not cause harm...especially not consistently. You have some hypocrites that don't really follow Christ but call themselves Christians. Then, yo have cults and other groups who misinterpret the Word of God teach falsely. Either way, just imagining life without a whole group of people, because a few mess up or do harm, isn't really fair to those who are truly good to society. That type of thinking is judgmental and immediately puts everybody in a group in one box, when everyone is not the same.  It's insulting to me because I am a Christian, obviously, & I try to live a good life, don't judge others, but believe in & love Jesus.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So basically... Christianity has no negatives and does no harm to society in any way shape or form?  Is that the gist of your response?

            Or are you claiming that no Christian has ever done harm to society?

            Or are you saying that no person in the Christian faith has ever caused harm to society as a result of his/her religion?

            1. Crissylite profile image76
              Crissyliteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Hey, Malissa. My gist is that imagining an ENTIRE religion, culture, or other group of people were not around just because SOME individuals in the group have done harm is not fair to others in the group who do not do any harm & that this type of question/thinking can be dangerous. This is the gist and my main point. 

              But yes, I do believe that the PURE teachings and belief in Jesus Christ are harmless. I know there have been Christians that have been harmful to others. However, that does not mean that Christianity itself is harmful. Nobody's perfect, but I think that most REAL Christians are not harmful. I think that some extreme people scream the loudest, so to say, do not act in love as Jesus teaches, and can represent in a negative light.

              Thank you for responding. I hope I explained my thoughts a little better. Take care.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Untrue. If I can point out an example of how a group of people were following Jesus's teachings to the letter and managed to bring about horrific death and suffering then would you be willing to acknowledge that at least for those victims that the world would have been better off without Christianity?

      2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Hi Crissy, many others echoed your same sentiment there.  I agree, it can be dangerous, and we have seen too often in history as ideas play out.  The example of Hitler is a key one, and the holocaust didn't just happen one day.  Ideas matter, and how something reads and what it generates in the minds of people matter. 

        No editor or producer would have allowed such a question to be on their newspaper or commercial or even on a billboard, as many would take it in the same way a lot of us have when we first read it.

    15. Jyle Dupuis profile image76
      Jyle Dupuisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      People will find other reasons to kill each other in the absence of religion.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yes that is probably true, and is a good point to show that it is people that do these things, not the religions that do them.  Religions can't make a war or kill a person, but they can teach to do that or not.  We know of at least one religion that indeed has a prophet that encourages that of their followers.

        Christianity teaches the opposite of war and murder.  The prophet and apostles not only didn't kill but shed their own blood at the hands of others that didn't want their message to be true.

        I agree though with what you said, they would get rid of religion only to find it didn't solve all their problems, I think that is wishful thinking and something that is just spread around for other reasons.

    16. mischeviousme profile image60
      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Human nature would still destroy the peace... Human primates are no different from those in the woods.

    17. PhoenixV profile image68
      PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Nope. Christianity brought hospitals, charity and education and to some degree even our current justice system. You know, stuff like "civilization".

      When the paper-back version of practicing quasi-buddhists get acute appendicitis, the pain and "reality" eventually sets in and they will immediately call 911 and more than likely end up in a hospital that was originally founded by Christianity. Just pretending one is kung-fu does not make one a martial arts expert. Kind of like how juveniles will pat themselves on the back after being publicly humiliated "claiming they taught someone a lesson". lol The proof is in the 500 years of civilized pudding. Christianity got it done.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Actually the foundations of modern medicine lay largely within Muslim and Taoist teachings....  They of course stood on the shoulders of Hebrews and the Greeks... who stood on the shoulders of the Egyptians...

        So you can thank Ra for treatment for that appendix as the Egyptians had the first recorded hospitals... Well before Christ walked the earth.


        As a side note... Pottery that was likely used for the preparation of herbal teas has been found in Asia.  This pottery was over 8 thousand years old which-if accurate-means that herbal teas were being brewed in China 2000 years before the Christian God created the planet.

        1. PhoenixV profile image68
          PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Feel free to appeal to that when it actually counts. I am talking about actual, real, modern, reality, type stuff. Anything can be claimed to have been developed from prior history. If someone needs a kidney they go to a real hospital. If they die from that condition, then they can be "mummified". lol


          Theres a movie that I have always enjoyed starring Joseph Cotten and Orson Welles called the Third Man. In the movie Orson Welles makes a speech: an observation; that has a very similar theme to this:

          In the last 500 years Christianity brought schools, colleges, charity, hospitals and aspects of our Justice system. All the important things that make this world even remotely civilized and tolerable. In the same 500 years, buddism brought us "yoga".

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita

            I know it's not an Orson Wells movie but I thought a link about a third century Hindu text describing surgical methods still used today might be relevant.

          2. A Thousand Words profile image70
            A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            And for all this "civility," there is corruption beyond measure.

            Also, Hinduism brought us yoga. LoL. Get your worldviews right, if you're going to criticize them.

            ALSO, if all the "civilized" people in this world would "meditate" every once in a while, which is what I think you were shooting at, there would be a lot more peace and justice, less judgment and pettiness, more appreciation for our fellow man and nature even. We wouldn't be destroying our planet. There's a number of things we wouldn't be doing. I could live happily without all your "civility."

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I think charity, schools and hospitals are more practical and pragmatic than meditation. But on a purely philosophical level, the core principles espoused by Jesus are as valid today as ever. They're workable. But ya know, meditation is good and I dont discount the good things in Buddhism. Karma and caste systems are not workable however.


              Someone cherry picked a verse earlier, about how Jesus was not the Prince of Peace. But a "buddhist" would understand that verse, in a way that " peace is a state of mind and we are not in conflict with each other as much as we are in conflict with ourselves or specifically our carnality.


              So, really it can be claimed that Jesus thoughts in that particular regard align very well with some of Buddhisms better teachings.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image70
                A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                You are very much still confusing Buddhism and Hinduism... Caste systems are an erroneous by-product of Hinduism...

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  This is from a Buddhist site, A Thousand Words....

                  "Brahmanism, the predominant religion in India during the Buddha's time, divided all humans into four castes (attu vanna), priests, warriors, traders and labourers."

                  So he isn't confusing it, and not like you said, Still very much confusing them... How did he initially, that he still is?  Or was it just an exaggeration?  I may have missed something, is why I ask.... I don't think I did though.

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image70
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Brahmanism=Hinduism... Buddha reached Enlightenment and thus "created" Buddhism in a time when Hinduism was the dominant religion (it still is)... so AGAIN, he is confusing Buddhism and Hinduism.

                  2. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Bramanism is still hinduism.

                    BUT there are some buddist sects that followed the caste system.

                  3. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Jesus was born a Jew, but that doesn't mean that we confuse Christianity with Judaism. Siddhattha Gotama was  born a Hindu, but that doesn't mean that we confuse Buddhism with Christianity.

                    Siddhattha founded Buddhism, but he incorporated none of the elements of the Brahman caste system. The earlier mistake concerned yoga, which I consider a lesser error, if an error at all, since yoga is associated with Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism.

                2. PhoenixV profile image68
                  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Okay, I'm not a Buddhist. So if something like a caste system that is practiced by people is not a "teaching of Buddhism" ,even if they are Buddhists- any similar practice that does not align with another religious leaders teachings is not that religion's or beliefs tenets? Correct?

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image70
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    It is NOT practiced by Buddhists, but by Hindus/Brahmanists.

                  2. A Thousand Words profile image70
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    If anything, Buddhists had to be a part of a society with a Caste system (from Hindus), but it was not a by-product of Buddhism, nor would it be if they had their own "nation." Karma in Hinduism and Karma in Buddhism are significantly different because Buddhism and Hinduism are two different worldviews, almost entirely (but not 100% different).

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                You say,

                "I think charity, schools and hospitals are more practical and pragmatic than meditation. But on a purely philosophical level, the core principles espoused by Jesus are as valid today as ever. They're workable. But ya know, meditation is good and I dont discount the good things in Buddhism. Karma and caste systems are not workable however."

                Fair and seemingly obvious points that I agree with.  Meditation is good also, and more of us could probably benefit from doing that and using it for health and peace of mind, which would in its own ways extend into the communities. 

                You are also fair in that you say many of Jesus' teachings align well with Buddhism.  I think that is true also.

                1. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
                  j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  It's not surprising that his teachings align well with Buddhism, since they're both derived from the Vedas c. 1000-1500 BCE and the countless independent mystics and philosophers that were inspired by them. There would be no modern religion without India.

          3. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
            j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, I guess if you're taking credit for the schools, hospitals, and justice system invented by the Egyptians and Greeks and preserved and advanced by the Muslims, you might as well take credit for the Crusades, witch burnings, and the slaughter of indigenous people all over the world. Or are we just going to play the No True Scotsman card again? Honestly, as much as I love the classics, I'm getting a little sick of hearing that tune.

            We'll ignore for the moment that the Church has had a standing policy of interfering with and, if at all possible, preventing the advance of science (on which schools and hospitals are built) for over a thousand years. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you're taking credit for work that was largely done by people who wanted nothing to do with the church.

            And don't forget that schools and hospitals were created to further the political and economic aims of the church as well as help people. Kind of a mixed bag, if you ask me.

            And, while I'm at it, I might as well just come out and say that the best Christian thinkers and mystics are pretty pale imitations of Eastern thinkers and mystics. Much as I love Jesus and Meister Eckhart, they don't hold a candle to Buddha, Lao Tzu, or about 50 more Eastern religious thinkers. Western philosophy and psychology are still playing catch up, though I guess that's not something you care about, since philosophy and psychology are pretty much anathema to Western religion.

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I am not taking credit for anything. History and reality show it to stand on its own except for the alleged ulterior motive stuff ya sloughed in there.

              Some native indigenous person gathered berries and found out it helped their sore throat a thousand years before all that. And you still have no point. next

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              This quote from you Juice,

              "Well, I guess if you're taking credit for the schools, hospitals, and justice system invented by the Egyptians and Greeks and preserved and advanced by the Muslims, you might as well take credit for the Crusades, witch burnings, and the slaughter of indigenous people all over the world. Or are we just going to play the No True Scotsman card again? Honestly, as much as I love the classics, I'm getting a little sick of hearing that tune."...

              misses the points of bringing the Universities, hospitals and more into this.  The point is WHO took them, kept on advancing them, and helped to make great new and old countries and STILL are.  That would be Christianity.  You know what strikes me as so odd?  The effort to discount the obvious points, and try to prove them wrong instead of seeing the points being made.  These same Christians world over, are being persecuted, many to death...it isn't about money or political gain when you life is on the line anyway.  That good hearts of people, as brought about by the teachings of Jesus does that.

              I have a great amount of respect for Jesus and Paul, and many other philosophers as well.  The point is, none like Jesus and Paul, have inspired what we see and continue to see today, world over, even in the face of persecution. 

              Muslims, and the other peoples you mentioned aren't doing this to the same degree.

              1. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
                j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                This seems like an incredibly naive simplification. The West did it's best to conquer the entire world c. 1492+. They didn't do this to spread the good word, they did it to acquire land and natural resources and expand their population before rival nations and cultures could. Typically, they used Christian dogma to justify their actions. The blame for that lies on the heads of the religious and political leaders of the time, not the average citizen, who probably wanted to be a good Christian. Many of the missionaries were incredibly devout and well-intentioned people. No doubt they would have been horrified by the relentless slaughter of indigenous people if they weren't already convinced that, as heathens, they deserved to die by the sword and burn in a lake of fire anyways. Still, I'll give them credit for trying to 'save' the few natives that survived the genocide by industriously discrediting and dismantling their cultures and filling them with shame and self-loathing.

                It was different in the East, of course, where there were already lots of people with large, well-established cultures, many of which were older than Christianity. Still, the trade routes opened up by Western nations, built on advances in science ("Hey, the world's not flat anymore!") and changing economic and political structures (moneylenders, political leaders that no longer needed the blessing of the church) that had nothing to do with Christianity made it easier for the Church to plant missions there as well. It's unfortunate they never managed to make much headway against Hinduism and Buddhism.

                Christianity brought churches and schools to foreign lands in the boats built and steered by avaricious political leaders and merchants and their armies. If it hadn't been for the apathy of Eastern nations, it would have been China and India bringing Buddhism and Hinduism to the west on similarly false claims of benevolence.

                1. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  And you were doing so good until then! I agree with most of the rest of your point, but wow, were you wrong on that one!

          4. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Respectfully, if you were referring to history of the last 500 years -- which you somehow deem as more " real" than earlier "stuff" -- then that's what you should have said. We can only respond to what you write.

            Regardless, formal education predates Christianity by literally thousands of years, as does charity. "Our" justice system? If you mean that the modern justice system, which evolved from the justice systems of the past, was influenced by some of the precepts of Judeo-Christianity, then this is obviously true. As for modern hospitals, you are really talking about the rise of modern medicine, which arose despite Christianity, not because of it.

            Yoga's spread in the West has been relatively recent, and is adopted by most practitioners as an auxilliary to meditation. If it is your intention to criticize meditation, then also criticize Christian prayer, as both are indulged with approximately similiar efficacy.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              It is about belief systems, worldviews and religions, and how those play out in the real world over the centuries.  I have been pointing this out, since people were jumping to things long ago, as a rebuttal against the points.

              I understood it to mean, how things played out, and which worldview over another "got it done, and still is...." 

              Who made that happen, predominantly? For the two worldviews in question, Christianity and Buddhism....  thank God for Christianity... Buddhism has brought some things, but the points are very good ones that Phoenix is making, undeniable really. 

              The world is INDEED a better place for Christianity being here, as seen in the examples given.  If it hadn't been, this country would look incredibly different.  It is starting to already be something different as we see..... (in my opinion...)

              1. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
                j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Again, your ignorance of history is not helping your argument. Christianity brought schools and hospitals to foreign nations because the rulers of the Christian nations conquered them or tried to conquer them.

                You can place the blame for the greed and bloodlust on either the rulers and merchants of these nations and say that Christianity had no part in it, in which case you can't claim that your religion had much of any impact on the current political and economic organization of the world, or you can say that it was Christianity that inspired these men to do these great deeds and that therefore Christianity is a religion that fosters violence. Either way, no amount of schools or hospitals can make up for the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people and the obliteration of thousands of indigenous cultures with their own hard-won ways of life.

                Personally, I prefer to think that it is simple greed and pride that motivated these genocides and that it has little to do with Christianity, aside from the manipulation of Christian dogma to justify the actions of the rulers. But I find it hard to believe that anyone who has any knowledge of history would consider the founding of schools and hospitals as anything more than another example of Western imperialism and Christianity's manifest destiny.

                There are plenty of good, Christian men and women trying to make the world a better place, just as there are plenty of good, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, etc., men and women doing the same. All of these people do it because they're good people, not because they believe in some musty, dead dogma.

                1. A Thousand Words profile image70
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  So beautifully put/written.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I think the point was missed by Melissa......

          I notice too that the "Christian God" referred to is the one that holds to young earth creationists, lol.

          1. PhoenixV profile image68
            PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Like fish in a barrel lol - oh yea "next" lol

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Congratulations.... That is the 30th post referring to something I've said and the 18th time you have mentioned me by name since I said I was through with you.  This is the first time I have responded... I might respond again when you hit 60.  Until then...

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You forgot to mention Westboro baptist church and who invented the tongue depressor. I'm disappointed sad lol

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Congratulations on what?  Is there a point to this?  Does it have anything to do with the conversation? 

              Your put downs in general and then judgements to me in particular,generated a lot of comments from your friends and others....  I am allowed to type as I like...thanks. How is this helpful to anything?  If you are done with me (which is fine and I know why that is), yet going through every one of my posts (many are long even) and counting the times I typed your name..or alluded to you, what should we take from that?

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Breaking my rule...  We should draw from that that your behavior is obsessive and verging on stalking and harassment.  Right now it is also interferring in an irrational pointless conversation that I am having with your sock puppet.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  No, the counting of my alluding to you in my posts, when you were so supposedly done with me actually makes the case you just tried to make against me here.  See why it does no good to just people down, as the irony and truth comes out on its own?

                  I hadn't spoken of you since last night, and was discussing with others actually.  I hadn't given you much thought today.  I give everyone the benefit of the doubt that puts people down, and judges me, by asking them questions and pursuing their points.  That was a good thing to do.  You weren't interested in being reasonable, so I let it go.  Then this... 

                  Counting, stalking, etc....  that wasn't me....  Be done or not with me.  I would have rather us had a great conversation, sticking to the points.  I am fine either way...but don't pull more stunts...sheesh.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  What is your rule, and who broke it?   I missed what your rules are...How does this apply to Christians and Buddhists again?

                  1. A Thousand Words profile image70
                    A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    She asked you to stop talking to and/or about her.

      2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
        EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Another shining example of Christians taking credit for everything, even things that started before they existed.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Points missed, entirely....

          1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
            EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No I just refuse to succumb to the ignorance of blind faith. Doesn't matter much to me anymore, at least your not whining like you did for over 30 posts that I saw.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I know.. people get mad when others that are being put down, don't just lay down and take it, then put them down more like you do here.

              If you care to share about succumbing to ignorance and blind faith, I would be curious to see why you say that or how it applies here.  People seemed confused about my points the other day, so I was clarifying for them, as they did more of the same.

              If you expect me to just take put downs, and never ask for higher debate or discussion, then you won't like reading some of my posts probably.  It was an attempt, one that failed, but I would try that hard again.  You can call me stubborn for that, but it was a good cause.  If you or anyone wants to discuss matters at hand, I will love to do that!  Part of that is we can each share how a point is wrong, (or right) and hopefully be strong enough to look at what we say and see if there is error.  This is what I want anyway, but I will look for it to be legitimate, because I care about the truths of these matters.

      3. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I don't correct others just to be pedantic, but I do correct Them when I encounter something presented as truth which is egregiously wrong, as is the case here.

        No, Christianity isn't responsible for hospitals, that would have been the Greeks and the quite early occupants of the Indian subcontinent. Yes, Christianity, as it expanded across the world starting in about 350 AD, did spread hospitals with it, but so did Islam a few hundred years later, and on a larger scale.

        As for being responsible for stuff like "civilization," ridiculous. Civilization demonstrably predates Christianity by many thousands of years.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Just curious, where did Islam spread their hospitals on a larger scale than Christianity?  I am most familiar with the history in this regard of the US, so don't claim to know better than you, which is why I ask as you seem to know.  Is there a better examples of non Christians making a better country and communities than we see in the case of the USA?  You say Islam came along and did it on a grander scale, as did some others.  I am not aware of where that took place, and am welcoming the knowledge.  Thanks.

          The USA has been known to be the best country in the world, at least as of until late as its occupants are changing things up quite a bit and its going downhill.   I observe the expansion and massive giving for Universities and hospitals and charities to be done predominately by Christians over the centuries, and they continue to do so.  If you look at your local hospitals for instance, almost wherever you live in the US, you will find this to be true, as well as knowing the history of the biggest universities.

          I don't see those being made possible by the ancient peoples mentioned, nor the Muslims..and quite the opposite sometimes.  Things seem to have gone severely downhill in countries that practiced other worldviews, and the opposite was true where Christianity was involved, best example the US.  You and others think this is wrong if I am understanding correctly.  Show me better examples of how things played out if this is wrong.

          1. j-u-i-c-e profile image84
            j-u-i-c-eposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            oceansnsunsets, if you were sincerely interested in the answer to these questions, you would Google them. Don't expect people to do history lessons for you and then claim no one can argue against you because no one can be bothered to regurgitate what is readily available. You intentions may be sincere, but the more I read the more it smacks of apologetics.

            There would be no Western science and medicine if not for Islam, who preserved it during the dark ages. China, under Confucianism and Buddhism, were for centuries well in advance of the West. The deepest, most profound teachings of Jesus were already well developed and elaborated over a thousand years before his birth in India in the Upanishads. Ignorance of history doesn't change it. Your views seem either naive and parochial or cynical and sophistic.

            Do we really need to tell you why ancient Egyptians didn't open hospitals in the U.S.? Or why Islam doesn't have as profound an impact on America, a nation founded by Christians, as Christians do?

            History is your friend. Dogma is your enemy.

            1. GERALD-710 profile image59
              GERALD-710posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              If I may ask,how many high class hospitals have been opened by muslims in their own countries that are anywhere near what christian hospitals are in the west ,or South America,or Australia for that matter.
              And mind you it was not Islam that preserved science,it was a few scientist who were allowed to freely express their ideas during the Islamic Caliphate(which mind you was a SECULAR not Islamic state).When islamisim rose in the East after the Mongols destroyed the Caliphate was the begining of the end of Science in the Muslim world.
              And Arabs were simply copy-pasting what the Greeks and Romans and Vedics had done.

            2. GERALD-710 profile image59
              GERALD-710posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              If I may ask,how many high class hospitals have been opened by muslims in their own countries that are anywhere near what christian hospitals are in the west ,or South America,or Australia for that matter.
              And mind you it was not Islam that preserved science,it was a few scientist who were allowed to freely express their ideas during the Islamic Caliphate(which mind you was a SECULAR not Islamic state).When islamisim rose in the East after the Mongols destroyed the Caliphate was the begining of the end of Science in the Muslim world.
              And Arabs were simply copy-pasting what the Greeks and Romans and Vedics had done.

          2. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I will answer this question, but not here. I would answer it here, but it is a _huge_ answer because it requires a lot of context to be understood.

            Don't think that I am being evasive or dismissive, please, but this is too important of a question to answer in any less than a complete form.

            I expect that you will see a hub about it from me in a week or so.

        2. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          It's certainly true that much of the beginnings of modern medicine took place in ancient Greece. That's a historical fact. It's also historical fact that many of the hospitals in operation today in the west were started by Christian organizations (which is why so many of them have names with the word "Saint" before them.) What's also true is that for all the yelling people do about how Christianity stifled civilization, the greatest blow to civilization as an idea and a force did not happen because of Christianity, it happened with the pagan tribes sacked Rome. They were illiterate and didn't feel the need to keep written documents around. It was actually Christians who saved most of the "civilization" from before that time, including pagan and gnostic writings.

          It's also true that while Islam brought hospitals with it, much of it's early advance was at the point of the sword, not because of missionaries. You can say what you want about missionaries, they didn't do the harm to pagan cultures that Islam did. And many Muslim organizations that are dedicated to helping people and alleviating suffering are dedicated to helping Muslims and alleviating suffering among Muslims. I don't doubt that in the Middle East, manhy hospitals in Egypt or Syria will serve anybody who comes in. But when disaster strikes in the US, Christian groups head out immediately, Muslim groups don't. You can still find Christian groups helping Katrina victims today. You didn't find Muslim groups in New Orleans even at the time.

          To simply say that Christianity bearing any responsibility for the advance of civilization is ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. They didn't do it single-handedly, and we may not like all the things that were done in earlier ages, but they were hardly absent from it.

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I didn't say that they had contributed nothing to civilization, nor did I imply it. I said that they weren't responsible for it.

            Yes, Christianity made many contributions to the civilizations which adopted it.

            1. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry if I misread you, but your contention that Christianity bore little or no responsibility for the advancement of civilization, and your statement that basically whatever Christianity did vis-a-vis medical treatment was done better my Islam, certainly made it sound like you thought Christianity contributed nothing to civilization.

              1. profile image0
                Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I didn't say that Christianity bore no responsibility for the advancement of civilization, I promise, primarily because it isn't true. I also didn't didn't say that Islam did a better job of advancing medicine, period, but that they did it earlier, and did it "better" at one point.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  One would think if Islam did that, they would have used it for good to make their world better, freer and a success for all kinds of people, like America has done.  They would have made a better world, and kept on doing so.  As we look around at the facts as we see the, that is my case.   

                  Good in this way, flows out of one worldview, and naturally doesn't flow out of the other worldview.  Plus, there are some just opinions going on here.  We all have those.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image68
                    PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Plus its equivocation. When speaking about the "advancement of medicine over many cultures and history" they are offering that as a rebuttal to "modern hospitals".

                    I can go to mesoamerican cultures 10,000 years ago and say "eureka, they were using obsidian tools to operate on the brain. I could go to ancient african cultures or ancient asian cultures even much further back and say-look they were using obvious natural cures and remedies.


                    But uhm, we are talking about "modern hospitals".

                  2. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    All cultures experience fallow and fertile cycles, and sometimes retrograde and renaissance cycles. Greater Christianity has been through this, as have many of its denominations, including Roman Catholicism.

                    Likewise Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam. Likewise the Babylonian, Greek, Egyptian, Indian, and Roman Empires. They have all waxes, waned, progressed, and regressed.

                    That's the way life works. That's the way individual lifetimes work. Islam is currently experiencing a long fallow, if not retrograde, cycle. However, it has also experienced its own cycles of fertility, and of renaissance.

                    As I have already indicated, this will be the subject of a later hub.

                2. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Okay.

    18. Dubuquedogtrainer profile image60
      Dubuquedogtrainerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You will soon have an opportunity to find out when many of them (the true believers) are raptured out of here.

    19. RustyW profile image66
      RustyWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yes..even buddhists...

    20. Mmargie1966 profile image72
      Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have to say, Chasuk, you have really created a huge debate with your question.  At first, being a Christian, I was offended.  However, I now see the dialog you've caused, and I am quite impressed with your ability to move/irritate/engage so many people of all beliefs.

      1. Mmargie1966 profile image72
        Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        By the way, I have no issue with those who do not believe what I believe.  Everyone must find their own path.  I just didn't like being singled out.  I call myself a Christian, because it is the closest religion I fit into.  Truly, I have a personal relationship with God.  I believe in Jesus Christ and the trinity, but the church and the Bible are open to interpretation, in my opinion.

        I find that many "religions" in the world are very much the same, but deities are called by different names.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Margie, what you say about the singling out was felt by myself and many others of varying worldviews. It was interesting to see that all play out, and how people dealt with particulars. Yes, quite a thread for sure...

    21. mischeviousme profile image60
      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know if it would be better, smarter maybe. Better? Couldn't say.

    22. ackman1465 profile image60
      ackman1465posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Chasuk:  I could have concurred with you if you had said ".... fewer religious nuts..." instead of ".... fewer Christians...."   

      In my opinion, Christians who are kooky aren't any different than those in other denominations who are also kooky.....   And it's the whole bunch of them, who lead with their "religion," who screw things up so much in this World.....

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Ackman, great points that when people act in those ways no matter what their religion or group, its not a good thing.

    23. MilesArmbruster profile image59
      MilesArmbrusterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I guess that I would make a historical comparison. 50 years ago the percentage of "Christians" in the US was higher. Now, the percentage is less. Christian values have been muted and vilified by those who are the gatekeepers to our cultural standards. At this point, the only religion that is locked out of our cultural dialog is Christianity. So it looks as though there are fewer Christians, at least in the United States. How does the 21st century compare?

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Actually I think that U.S. higher education and general knowledge base are much higher than 50 years ago.  There is more cultural acceptance and more open exchange of ideas.  If it wasn't for the constant squabbling to impede progress vs. those who wish to continue it i think the u.s. would be fast approaching a cultural renascence...

        I don't think it's a matter of there being less Christians I think it is a matter of Christianity losing power as a political force.  I'm all for that as I don't think our laws should have anything at all to do with our dominant religion.

      2. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        In what way is Christianity locked out of US cultural dialog?

    24. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The world would probably be a much better place if today's Christians learned to be like the original Christians who were so called because they were so much like the "Christ" they loved and truly followed. HE did not judge unrighteously, nor did HE condemn. He uplifted, encouraged and gave HIS life to empower us to live above our emotional reactions. HE also gave HIS life as a seed to fall into the ground that those that follow HIM might be just like HIM and submerge themselves into HIS LIFE to let HIM live through them.

    25. profile image0
      James Agbogunposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ...if there were no muslims?

      1. mischeviousme profile image60
        mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        If there was nothing to disagree about... Forget about God and the devil, right and wrong, it's not doing the human race any good. Shades of grey and personal opinions, that's all this world knows.

    26. Bill Akleh profile image60
      Bill Aklehposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      We'd be better off without the Christians for sure. The holocaust probably wouldn't have happened. Don't really care about the Buddhists either way - they are kind of like activists - as long as they don't go crazy you can love trees all you want.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Many Christians died with the Jews, trying to save who they could.  That statement about the holocaust goes counter to reason, and doesn't make sense.  Look up the Ten Boom family, as an example.  My only goal is that people see how irrational they are, to try and prove a worldview wrong.

        Hitler, and those who murdered, acted out of a different worldview...don't believe me?  Compare the teachings of Jesus, to the actions and ideas of Hitler and how they were carried out. He looks like he acted as if he actually believed no God existed to ever have to answer to.

        1. Bill Akleh profile image60
          Bill Aklehposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You do realize that the massive amount of anti-semitism in Europe - from 1950 and previously is almost entirely due to Christianity? There are noble people from every faith, but the leaders like the Bishops and Cardinals incited pogroms and blood libels. Not too mention that the Catholic Church helped Nazi's flee justice and other such abominable things.

          1. PhoenixV profile image68
            PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You do realize that Jehovahs Witness' were also put in concentration camps and massive amounts of Christians died on the beaches of Normandy dont you?

            1. Bill Akleh profile image60
              Bill Aklehposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That doesn't change the fact that the church was directly involved in the aiding/abetting and cooperating with Nazis and that the Bishops created mass anti-Semitism with blood libels and tales of Jews using Christian children's blood and pogroms going back for hundreds of years even.

              Coupled with the other historic events such as the Crusaders pillaging and murdering people in times of war and events like the Spanish inquisition - I don't think I would trust religious Christians in time of stress/war.

              1. PhoenixV profile image68
                PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                That doesn't change the fact that Jehovahs Witness' were also put in concentration camps and massive amounts of Christians died on the beaches of Normandy. BTW I am not Catholic. I find their beliefs to be heresy.

                You might want to learn who actually started the Crusades and the deaths of Christians that provoked it. You might also want to do some research on the mass graves at Mamilla.

                1. Bill Akleh profile image60
                  Bill Aklehposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  First error - there is a difference between the leaders of the Catholic church and individual Catholics.

                  Second, yes I'm aware that the Crusaders were a response to Islamic Kaliphates - who were also an extremely horrid force of evil in the world. Most of the killing in the past millenium has been done by those two forces.

                  2) You are operating on the premise that good negates bad.

                  The question was "would the world be a better place if..."

                  My response is: yes, look at the atrocities committed by religious Christians even dating back to about 50 years ago.

                  Your counter-point can only be that the sum total of good is higher... an argument that is not very appealing - JWs being placed in camps is a tragic thing - but not something that makes the world "a better/worse place"

                  Similarly Christians on the beaches of Normandy - if they had been born Buddhist would there have been a difference in their actions?

                  You are left to say only one argument, which is entirely separate:
                  "Christianity is the true religion - therefore the world is a better place with it"

                  That is the form of an argument that would be acceptable. The entire argument is contingent on that - if the answer is that it is not a true religion - then let us take a look at what its leaders have done over its history and conclude quite easily that we would be better off without them.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image68
                    PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Now it seems you are making an attempt at honest history? Good does negate bad in the end. As for all the other we live in "reality". When you are dealing with human beings, then the overall picture is highly relevant.

    27. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Let's take a look at all the real good Christians do. CBN Christian Broadcasting Network is almost always the first on the scene of a disaster with huge semi-truckloads of food, clothing, water, etc. They have telephone counselors you can call for prayer when you have needs. The proclaim the good new that Jesus who I call Yeshua is hope, love, peace, joy, heals and restores broken lives.

      I can attest to that truth.

      TBN Trinity Broadcasting Network does the same thing. They take food, clothing, toys and hope to children in Haiti and other places that have nothing. They help build and staff orphanages and support them.

      Larry Huch Ministries called New Beginnings has built an orphanage in Haiti after the earthquake that devastated the country. They support that orphanage.

      The Dream Center in Los Angeles CA is run by Pastor Matthew Barnett and is an old, very, very large renovated building that houses people that were subsisting on the streets of LA. They rescue drug addicts, prostitutes, homeless men, women and children and help them heal and get on their feet and know that they are worthwhile human beings. They help them get training and jobs to be productive citizens.

      Kenneth Copeland ministries goes into prisons and gives hopeless men and women back their dignity and life and teaches them the love of Christ. They also have motorcycle rallies yearly and biker camp for Christian motorcyclists. They get people healed of real illnesses and teach people their worth.

      so do Jesse DuPlantis ministries, Jerry Savelle Ministries, Joyce Meyer Ministries, and many other Christian ministries.

      Curt Landry ministries takes humanitarian aid to Native American people in OK and surrounding areas to rebuild relations between them and the western europeans that came and out of greed killed, and took the land from under their feet. He also goes to Israel and builds clinics, orphanages, repairs bomb shelters and plants olive trees in Israel and why that is important is those that bless the land of Israel will be blessed and protected by God. They are both Christian and Messianic ... and he preaches against sin.

      And there are hundreds more Christian ministries that do this same things.

      What humanitarian practical things do you do?

      I know Mormons that do that sort of thing and also Jehovah's Witnesses and some of them sort of lay claim to being Christian...

      LOOK up Christian ministries on the web and find out WHAT THEY DO...

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Don't forget the races, ethnic groups and religious groups you wiped out completely. I assume you accept responsibility for the atrocities that gave you the money to do a few good works. Right?

        Do some research and FIND OUT WHO THE MONEY WAS STOLEN FROM!

        Your self righteousness is the reason your religion causes so many conflicts. sad

    28. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      About Miles McPherson


      Evangelist, speaker, Bible teacher, and former defensive back with the San Diego Chargers, Miles McPherson connects with both the young and young-minded with his trademark bold and humorous style.

      In 2000 he founded the Rock Church, a diverse, energetic body of believers who seek to be first-responders to people’s pain with the love of Christ. That may be why the Rock, known as The Do Something Church, is one of the country's largest congregations and a catalyst for pervasive hope. The Rock draws an average of 12,500 people Sunday in San Diego to five services, which also are live-streamed at sdrock.com/live. Then Monday through Saturday, the Rock puts its faith in action through 100-plus ministries, from adoption to youth mentoring, including a thriving thrift store that gives people second chances at life.

      Passionate to share Jesus’ pervasive hope throughout the broken world, McPherson speaks widely through the United States and internationally. He launched Do Something World, which mobilizes Christians nationally and internationally to rebuild lives and communities with the love of Christ. Author of numerous books, including DO Something: Make Your Life Count (Baker), McPherson can be heard daily on Rock Radio nationally, and weekly on San Diego’s TV Channel 6/The CW Network. He and his wife, Debbie, have three children and live in San Diego. More at www.MilesMcPherson.com.
      http://www.milesmcpherson.com/

    29. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The truth about Christianity and where it originated.


      http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_t_c/index.html

      http://passionfortruth.com/
      and that's only the tip of the iceberg

    30. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Father God, I ask you to forgive us white European invaders for coming to America and killing our brothers for land and the minerals under it. I ask YOU to forgive us for the sins we have committed against our Chinese brethren in using them to build our railroads and treating them as less than human. I as forgiveness for our bringing Black people from Africa and tearing apart families and raping women and abandoning our babies without family.
      I ask you to forgive us for failing to bring YOUR TORAH to the nations to bless them as YOU intended. Father I ask you to forgive our greed, our unrighteousness, our selfishness, our hatred toward those that do not reflect our image. Father I ask YOU to forgive us for murdering millions of innocent, unborn babies in the womb that cannot speak for themselves.
      Father I ask YOU to forgive me for how I offend YOU in any manner and fashion. HELP me to lay my life down and GIVE YOU place to LIVE YOUR life through me.
      Father I thank you for healing me of the depression, of the deep hurt and pain that caused me to spew poison onto others. Thank YOU for forgiving me, us of all of our sins. Thank YOU that YOU sent Yeshua to take away all of our guilt, shame, condemnation, lack of self worth, self-hatred, and all of the burdens of trying to please others that WON”T be ..

      Thank you that YOU love me anyway, even though I’m not perfect…AMEN

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        So that is how it works huh? Spend 1500 years murdering and pillaging then ASK for FORGIVENESS and be all self righteous about spending 1% of the wealth stolen doing good works? lol

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          None of which is taught by Christianity, or what Christianity actually is.

          This is why I can't take people like Mark and others like him seriously.  He defines Christianity, BY anti Christian works, and it is enough for him to not have to even think about it, and even accuse Shalah of it, saying "you did ____" when others did it and only because she sides with God.  Leaving out all the other people that did it, and leaving out all the other reasons people do such awful things.

          One thing is for sure, Christianity in NO way sanctioned it, and it was opposite of what Jesus would do and indeed commanded.  IGNORING all the good it has done.  The insisted upon way of defining it, is incredibly immoral, and yet satisfying to him.

          Well, I can see that debating truthful things with people that don't want it won't ever work.  Immoral people act like there is actual justification for their own animosity towards others that just believe differently than them.  No amount of my asking it to be fair has worked, but thank God for Christianity and all the good it has done, and that people like Mark live in a better world, without doubt because of them.  I find it incredibly discouraging to observe this in humanity, and how this kind of thinking helps only in hurting our planet.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            If you are going to take credit for the good things - surely you should at least accept responsibility for the bad?

            No wonder we are destroying our planet with people like you around. No morals - that is your problem. And you sure don't follow what Christianity teaches - do you? wink

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Opposites of truth, rule in the minds of some very clearly.  Everyone has opinions and can lie if their morality supports it.

              What can't be done is rewriting what Christianity is, what Jesus taught.  There is such a strong anti reality going on here, that there can be no point in even trying to reason or debate with such a person?  Might as well say, The sky is yellow and purple polka dot colors, hahaha! Um, ok.  Now what? You can't take a person that says opposite of what we know for a fact and observe, and then spouts the opposite just because their morality allows for it, and take them seriously.

              I think I am done.  (Likely Mark will think it a victory, as opposed to what it actually is lol.)  Its rather crazy and maddening behavior.  Shalah, while I don't agree with her on everything, nor her me, has a spirit of amazing patience and kindness even to those that spent a day and a half being rotten to her.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Odd - you still want to claim credit for a few hospitals, but refuse to accept responsibility for all the atrocities which we know about and have observed?

                Talk about illogical and unreasonable. There is no talking to you at all.

                ciao.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I have never once denied any atrocities occurred, and see here you are again, accusing falsely.  I agreed atrocities were indeed atrocious, but added they were anti Christian, which is more honest than you are willing to be. 

                  You and others have to take your ball and go home actually, when it comes to debating people that make sense, but that you don't want to admit when they have a point.  Its so super easy to accuse only, and not give credit where due.  Its even easier to define a particular THING, BY its opposite, and I guarantee you that even if you continue in your mind to think you are right on that, it will never be the case.  See, you can't make actually true things, into a lie.  Talk about belief in things for poor reasons.  What is sad, is that I am helping you to see how you actually think, and am encouraging better for you, and you say I don't do this, and do that other...  Only true if its true.

                  You actually side with Jesus on quite a lot.  This ought to matter to a person that cares about truth.  Bottom line fact.  Don't be so easy....you are blinded way too easily. Do you care about truth and reality?  If you do not, how could anyone discuss anything real with you?

              2. profile image0
                SirDentposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                1Co 4:9  For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes...I hear that.  I struggle that those that oppose, don't want the truth, and this is one way it is so evident to me.  The words of Jesus and Paul there are proved right again and again by them.  This is why I pray that God may open their eyes.  Otherwise, it is pointless, but I can't bear to not point it out before I leave.

    31. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'd have to do a lot more research on Buddhists to answer this part. I don't personally know any Buddhists either. From the little I do know, I think that Buddhism is supposed to be a peaceful religion. But as people are people and each interprets philosophies in his own way, there may be those that corrupt the Buddhist philosophy just like there are people that corrupt every other religious philosophy.

      I have hears Muslims say that their religion is of peace and that extremist Muslims are not following Muhammad's philosophy.

      It's really never the religion, it's how any individual that associates with the religion plays it out that causes problems.

    32. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Our God and the God of our ancestors, may our prayers come before YOU and may OU not ignore our pleas. We are neither so arrogant nor so stubborn as to declare that we are righteous and have not disobeyed YOUR TORAH, for indeed, we have disobeyed. We have disobeyed YOU through baseless hatred, and we have disobeyed YOU by the hardening of our hearts.
      God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our God and our LORD, Yeshua the Messiah, we come before YOU today to confess the disobedience of Your people; the disobedience of Israel and the disobedience of the body of Messiah consisting of both Jews and non-Jews.
      We are part of both of these, and our lives are bound to their destiny; be merciful to us and grant us forgiveness for all of our ways.
      A part Israel we pray:
      For the sins we have committed through failing to accept Yeshua as the Messiah, our High Priest, and our atonement for sin through HIS BLOOD.
      For the sins we have committed in not dealing honestly with the clear evidence for His Messiahship. For YOU, O LORD, have provided fulfillment of the prophecies of old, His supernatural resurrection, and continued miracles in His Name, even in our day.
      For the sins we have committed in rejecting the witness of the Apostles of Yeshua, whose witnessing was confirmed with mighty signs and wonders. Forgive us, O LORD, and restore us as YOUR people.
      For the sins we have committed against YOU by replacing a personal relationship with YOU with religious ritual and self-righteousness.
      For the sins we have committed against YOU by making void the commandments [teachings and instructions and military orders] of YOUR TORAH through the convenient traditions of men.
      For the sins we have committed against YOU in rejecting the prophetic word of the Spirit for he easily accepted majority opinion of our leaders. Forgive us, O LORD, and restore us as YOUR people. For we who intercede have accepted YOUR revelation and humbly have received YOUR  Salvations Yeshua.
      For the sins we have committed in embracing secular philosophies and even in battling against Biblical standards in society.
      Indeed, for the presence within the body of all sorts of foreign views; even secular humanism, atheism, kabbalah, eastern methods of meditation, pantheism, materialism, hedonism, nationalism, and all manner of destructive philosophies.

      We do now repent for our people and ask forgiveness for we are not without hope.
      For YOU have promised that all Israel shall be saved. We shall yet say as a people, Baruch haba b’Shem Adonai—Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the LORD.
      “We shall look upon Him whom we have pierced and mourn for HIM as one mourns for an only son. Then shall the great promise be fulfilled, a fountain shall be open for cleansing in that future great YOM Kippur. WE will be gathered to oru land in a greater Exodus, and the nations shall come to YOUR LIGHT. There will be PEACE and deliverance form all our enemies.

    33. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

      For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

      Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

      [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    34. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Does it really make any difference if we point out all the good that Christians who really get Yeshua do good works in His Name?

      No, because then someone comes back reminding us all the hateful things people that were not Christians did in the name of Christianity...

      This question just gave those that want to criticize a whole group of people for what some who were not real Christians at all did in its name

      try that with any other group
      and it is defamation

      if the world had less_________
      and more ________________________

      would it be a better place. It has been said before, but no one cares to hear it.

      Then there are those that are trying to be like Yeshua and have not attained His level of perfection and let's all gang up on them

      instead of looking at one's own self
      and seeing the hate

    35. gabgirl12 profile image61
      gabgirl12posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think the world would be a better place if there was less 'organized religion'.

      1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Hi gabgirl12,

        I have been through a lot of church fellowships where I did not fit in and felt like an outsider. I just did not belong there.

        There are really good, truly welcoming and loving churches where people are accepted as they are and are able to heal, grow and blossom. I pray you find one of those families.

        1. gabgirl12 profile image61
          gabgirl12posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm not looking for any. But thanks.

    36. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "Children  forced to become soldiers led her to lead Christian and Muslim women to demand an end to Liberia’s civil war..."

      http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2012 … sage.html/

    37. ErinGorney profile image64
      ErinGorneyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Based off of my life and my experiences... Yes. I have been verbally abused, shunned, judged and told how to live my life by Christians, whose belief system finds acting that way sinful.

      1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
        ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Been in so many 'Christian' churches where if I failed to conform I was just sort of tolerated on the  peripheral  to learn how to 'assimilate' into
        conformity

        But I have come to understand that

        I am unique and to appreciate my uniqueness
        and because Father says, "He has made you accepted among the beloved." I am at peace with myself, my calling and with Father.

        It isn't that I don't care what others think of me, it's that I know I am on a journey with Father and wanting to be transformed more and more, not stagnate where I am regardless of how much I enjoy my current 'state' of being.

        Life is an adventure to be walked with Yeshua and become more and more integrated with the true self rather than 'walk alongside' self looking at the fractures and trying to decide ok that's bad, or that behavior is good, let's project that for fear of being rejected and you know that's what a certain person or group desires. That is being manipulated by fear of man.

  2. rdcast profile image60
    rdcastposted 12 years ago

    This world was created to be replaced with a new and far more glorious world, void of all Antichrists and their sin. As is, it needs all the believers in Jesus Christ it can hold, until its destruction nears. Then all surviving believers in Jesus Christ and those who didn't worship the Beast, will be removed for their safety, while this old and sinful world, full of its Antichrists, is destroyed. This will occur, in or around the year 2027

    1. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No! Not imminent doom!

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Ms janesix, if it weren't for their next breath, imminent doom awaits all Antichrists.

        1. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Ok that makes sense.

    2. Cagsil profile image72
      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      lol lol

      Actually, I would say it would be better off with less Christians and more Buddhists.

      However, if more Christians actually acted as they should, then point underlying this conversation, would be completely meaningless.

      1. prairieprincess profile image95
        prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Cagsil, really? So you would  not want me around? I'm a Christian. Christians are people, not just a nameless group to hate. Would you say this about any other group? You want less of my people? When you say you want less of people, that leads to how do you make that happen?

        1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
          EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Probably the same way Christians made less of the other groups.

          1. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I think every group does that :p That is the problem with our obsessive sorting and classifying of everything and everyone.

            1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
              EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Not really. The only two groups known for this issue is Christians and Muslims. You don't really if ever hear of another religion killing off millions for no better reason then trying to establish their religion as dominant. Not saying that it's never happened, but I've heard more from these two groups then any others.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Look up the persecution of Christians, you would hear some interesting facts. Also I didn't just mean religious groups, I meant any groups.

                1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Will look it up.

                  1. gabgirl12 profile image61
                    gabgirl12posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Muslims yes. Not sure about Christian's. And I'm wondering if when you say 'killing off millions' are you referring to genocide? If that's what you mean I have to disagree.

                    Case in point: Hutus vs Tutsi's in Rwanda. It was a paranoid ideology that Tutsi's intended to enslave Hutu's and needed to be resisted at all costs. That ideology cost just under a million lives. Maybe not the mark, but still very close.

                    Christians and Muslims have been trying to kill each other for hundreds of years. Congregations are led to believe that they need to defend and protect the Jewish Holy Land which led to the Crusades. So they remain stalwart in prayer and aid. But they don't pray for the muslims do they?

                    They don't love the muslims as much as they want to convert them. As opposed to respecting their faith and maybe learn something from them, they condemn them.

                    Anything that is 'organized' to stop Christians from talking about Jesus is deemed 'persecution'. This word has been used and abused by both Christians and Jewish to the point where we now have alternate words to define it such as 'anti-semitic' etc. And all under the premise that God favors them above all when God never said...I choose you...like you would to a Pokemon character. Only self centered and those who feel sorry for themselves think that way. Frankly I'm more worried about Africa.

                    God doesn't protect them by choice, its by a Pact that Abraham made with God...note...Abraham made, not God. This prompted God to establish a covenant (which makes it more rich and glorious). I don't blame him. The man almost killed his own son and had to be stopped.

                    Currently Israel is surrounded by Islamic nations that one day may decide they've had it, but the only thing stopping them is ...yep their own 'religion' which states that Jerusalem is also a Holy Place. Before they would bow to Jerusalem and now they bow to Mecca. But many folks believe that Islam is surrounding the Jewish to plan an attack. No! They love Jerusalem. Frankly its just one big misunderstanding after another.

                    Religion begets religion, but in they end it screws itself. What moves God however is not religion, or the crazy things the blind following the blind do, its just faith. And you can have faith in doing something to bring about the greatest evil, like you can to bring about the greatest good. While knowledge is power, only wisdom can tell the difference.

                    And I have to add to an earlier comment I made...its not just 'organized religion' that needs to go, Christians have to learn to communicate. The Bible condemns their rejection of education.  'My people perish for lack of knowledge'. Hosea 4:6 Duh! Learn to read! Unfortunately the popular belief structure which has nothing to do with faith is that knowledge will 'contaminate' or 'confuse' their flock. Again kinda like their need to protect the Jewish. And its not about being their brother's keeper...its about worshipping them and eachother as idols.

              2. profile image0
                Chris Hughposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                You do have a point there. And kudos for not being too chicken to mention Muslims. I think a lot of people hating on Christians would really like to hate on Muslims but don't have the guts.

                Most Christians are good people though. It's the loudmouthed jerks who get noticed.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  That is so true. 

                  Terror wreaks havoc on people, and they get scared.  Its very effective and why it needs to not be coddled.  ( I mean, when terror is involved.  Its in the teachings of some religions..)

                  1. profile image0
                    Chris Hughposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Yeah, it's easier to bad mouth Christians, since they're very unlikely to kill you....'Course, Moslems are very unlikely to kill you too...Maybe it's just more fashionable to come down not the Christians nowadays.

              3. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
                ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Those were not Christians. Those were the armies of an Emperor who made HIMSELF God and demanded all Jews and Christians give up their faith assimilate into His 'religion' or be killed. There is so much information out there about this truth now go find it.

                Constantine killed Christians and Jews, took over all religious activity and did away with all other religious observance. It was a pagan Emperor Constantine that killed Christians and Jews and established a state religion.

        2. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Would the world be a better place if there were no Nazis? No there are plenty of groups one can apply it to. We are talking about a religion with a long history of oppression genocide and murder which has led millenia of discrimination against members of other religions, homosexuals, scientists etc. etc. I don't think there is any doubt that the world would be a batter place if there had been no Christianity, it means no crusades, no witch burnings, no holding back science for hundreds of years and no dark ages etc etc. The question is valid and in my mind the answer is yes, that does not mean I want to kill Christians or anything I just want their influence to stop making the human condition worse than it has to be which it is still doing with things, like gay rights, stem cell research etc.

          1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
            EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well put Josak

          2. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The problem is that the people committing these acts were not exactly following the teachings of Christ. So they were not really Christians. Using that reasoning we would have to say that the world is better off without atheists as well, because of the persecution and murder of theists around the world by atheists. (China, Russia etc). I do not think we are better off without any religious group.

            I think instead of classifying people as a certain type of person we need to focus on the fact that we are all people. It doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is that we work together to stop persecuting each other. smile

            1. janesix profile image60
              janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Of course they were christians.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                They believed they were, but by Jesus' standards they were not. He had two commands, love God, and love your neigbor. They weren't keeping the second commandment. So they were doing things in the name of Christ, but they were not following Christ.

                I think Christianity needs a new name haha

                1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
                  ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, call it Constantinism.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image77
                    Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    But that would be incorrect. Constantine was no theologian and he knew it. He believed what he believed, and fiercely, but he was not grounded in the writings of Paul, nor did he produce his own body of work (I think he was illiterate.)

          3. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
            ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Shalom Josak,

            One needs to study closely the history of "Christianity" which the Messiah never came to start anyway.

            The beliefs and feasts of Jesus first followers were all hijacked and assimilated into pagan worship. Constantine in the 4th century changed everything! He forbad any worship of the true God. He killed all believers in Jesus that refused to change to his way of 'worshipping' the sun

            not Jesus at all.

            So in truth, Constantine is to blame, for the religion of Christianity as it morphed across the ages. There is plenty of proof on YouTube to check it out. Origins of Christianity .

            Yeshua's followers were filled with love and their worship persisted well into the 4th century until it was all changed. Read about it in Messianic Church Arising and other books that tell the truth.

            The issue isn't Christians it is human flesh or carnality. It is called the flesh lusting against the spirit.

            It is a spirit of religion that wants to try to control, to manipulate, to rule through people who are trying to learn who their Jesus is, but don't take the time to wait on Him to be changed.

            I was indoctrinated with Roman Catholic teachings in my earliest years and it made me self-righteous...maybe I still come across that way sometimes because there's a very, very fine line between assurance and self-righeousness and it is hard to not project that rather than knowledge, confidence and assurance.

            Human nature is very combative...you just push the right or wrong button.

            this thread is proof, not?

            1. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              All forums that deal with religion, whether the positive or negative presence and no matter who is hosting it, seem to be places where people push buttons.

        3. Cagsil profile image72
          Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hey Prairie, I think you missed the point of my post.
          You throw around the word "hate" pretty easily.
          Sure, I would say this about 50% of the groups that presently exist. I know of at least several hundred irrationally reasoned groups. And all they are good for is inciting fear or placing blame.
          Your people? Oh please. As I said above, you missed the point of my post.
          It's called education. It's called honesty. It's called knowing what it truly means to be human. It's about individual rights, knowing where your rights end and other people's rights begin. Which is something Christians, in specific, have no clue about. And, yes, I lumped ALL Christians together in my last sentence.

          I know of very few who actually follow Jesus' teachings and if you had grabbed my post as properly read, then you would know that it would be nice if Christians did more about this then the world would be a better place. Otherwise, this whole conversation is meaningless.

          1. prairieprincess profile image95
            prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Cagsil, really? You are throwing out quite a few generalizations there. You just said that all Christians are, let's see, have no idea about human rights, no idea about other people's rights and don't live their faith.

            How many Christians do you actually know? I have spent my life fighting for kids' rights within the classroom, standing up for Aboriginal people who face discrimination in our country, Canada, teaching in forgotten corners of the North. I am a Christian.

            I believe the words  of Jesus, who said to love others as we love ourselves. Are you saying want less of me?

            What you say was hateful. I am a Christian. You said you wanted less of me and people like me. The church were I go is very involved in giving to the poor in their community. They sponsor and supply the food for a very poor school in our neighborhood, with no gain for themselves.

            How are you educating people by saying that all Christians are bad? Many of the people you converse with in the forums and in the groups are Christians. How can you say that they are all bad?

            Saying you want "less of __________ in the world is hateful. What would you call it?

            1. prairieprincess profile image95
              prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Anyways, maybe some day you'll get to know some Christians living the faith. I know many that are.

              We all have the freedom to believe what we want and hopefully all respect each other in the end.

              Have a good night.

            2. Cagsil profile image72
              Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Less of you? How did this become about you?
              You know, I get that a lot. Common misconception.
              That's nice. As if I didn't know already. It's odd how you are pointing it out.
              You know, I tend to get bored easily, when I'm forced to repeat myself because someone else choose to read into something said. You want be a Christian. Be a Christian. But, under no circumstances are you to reserve the right to use your Christian beliefs and apply them to anyone else's life. If you don't then fine. But, that is the problem in America. A HUGE portion of the voting population in America is religious. And, a great amount of them would love to install Christian laws. If you think I'm kidding, think again.
              I'm glad you do good things. It's good. I didn't need to know, but okay.
              It's called increasing awareness. When people learn where they begin and others begin, then I'll call a person Christian. Jesus' teachings are all about understanding yourself, growing in conscious awareness. It's all about you loving yourself and all around you the same. This means, in order to do so, you would have to understand your life.

              Do you have any clue as to what I am talking about? If you do, then what is the first step? If not, accept the fact that you don't understand your own life.
              Well, I know this. I used for the affect and effect. I knew what the generalization was going to do to this conversation, but did you? Did it set you off? Apparently so.
              Because, I AM the most honest person I know. And, just to let you know, I spent 20+ years in retail, gotten to know a lot of people on a personal level and for that long, I haven't run into many like me.
              You know, this conversation is going to get old fairly quickly, so let's speed up the process.

              First off, my original post to this thread was clearly written, so that a 5th grader could have understood it. If you persist, you will only prove that post accurate. Good day.

              1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
                ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                reported

                1. Cagsil profile image72
                  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You know. Sooner or later, you report enough people for false reasons, HubPages staff might just ban you from the forums for falsely reporting things.

                  1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
                    ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    threats and attempts to scare me now

        4. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Conversion to secular thinking at best or non-Abrahamic religions in a pinch.

          It's not hate speech at all to wonder what the would would be like without the influence of an often oppressive philosophy.  I wonder all the time what the world would have been like without the witch trials (Christian) Nazi's (Christian)The Saint St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre (Christian) The Spanish Inquisition (Christian) The Crusades (Christian) The religious cleansings in Nigeria (Christian-Muslim) Anders Brievik (Christian) The Reformation (Christian) the KKK (Christian) National Liberation Front of Tripura (Christian)The Army of God (Christian)and all the other Christian Terrorist that bomb abortion clinics, kill doctors and beat gays to death....

          1. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Not Christian, simply deluded. Every religion has their fundamentalists which embarrass everybody else tongue

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That's so convenient that the Christians than embarrass Christians aren't really Christians. That keeps the religion and it's followers from any accountability or desire to self-police their own faith. 

              That same convenient tendency counts members of my faith as Christians when claiming that Christians built this country but claims that we are not Christians when we say support abortion rights and gay marriage.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Umm no Jesus told his followers to rebuke each other. I do not know if I am explaining myself very well.

                To be Christian you must be a follower of Christ. If you cannot show the love of Christ, for example you beat up homosexuals and burn witches then you are not following what Jesus was teaching. He said to love Him, and love everybody else. Love does not look like persecution.

                So even though they called themselves Christian, they were not behaving as Christians.

                Look at it this way,  could say I was atheism and go argue with a bunch of people that God exists, but I no matter what I said I would not be an atheist, because I was not following what my own belief dictated. Make sense?

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually, it does make sense in a way... BUT...  These groups and individuals actually do have biblical backing for their actions.  Their actions ARE in line with the words of the bible and their interpretations are as valid as any other.

                  The KKK for example is working almost exclusively off of scripture.  Visit their website if you can do it without vomiting... You see traditional southern baptist teaching.  If you are saying that their INTERPRETATION of the scripture is off then you are walking some shaky theological ground.  You'll find variations in interpretation from church to church which then begs the question... Which of the 10's of thousands of Christian churches is the only right one?

                  1. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    None of them that cannot fall in line with those two commands :p I do not think I can stomach the KKK website so I think I will avoid it, but I would say that often the Biblical backing is taken out of context in extremist groups. Any backing from the New Testament that does not fall in line with these two commandments are definitely out of context.

                    I have not fully formulated my beliefs but I am starting with Jesus, follow what he taught specifically. Avoiding what the others taught about him. Referring to Old Testament Scripture for context. I think that when you are Christian you must be following Christ (not Paul or Joseph Smith :p) and none of His teachings specifically can back up the behaviors you spoke of.

    3. Disappearinghead profile image60
      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yes 2027, March 16th about teatime.

    4. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Umm where did you get that date from? :s

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It's the subject of my one and only hub.

        1. calynbana profile image79
          calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
          Matthew 24:36-42

          “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes to all that and is handled in the hub. As for those eating and drinking and such, they were the nonbelievers.

            As Noah and the Magi, neither knew when, but rather the watch, or season for when they must make ready and so we've been likewise commanded, so our Lord wont find us sleeping. Notice I us "in or around" any given year. God has determined without dispute, that we are not to know the precise time, but that we are charged to know at the end of what generation, season, watch, having all signs described, that our opportunities aren't taken, as by a thief in the night.

            Knowing the constraints doesn't preclude our need to prepare for the end of the age, preceded by a 7 year period of great tribulation. To say God forbids us from knowing the closeness of His prophesy fulfillment, is wrong.

            1. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I think I am going to back out of this conversation lol details are not important to agree upon. What is important is faith in Jesus and I think we share that smile

              God bless

    5. ackman1465 profile image60
      ackman1465posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      rdcast:  Just how "close to or in (during)" 2027 will this be?????  I'd like to be able to do some plannig and budgeting, in the meantime......

    6. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
      ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Perhaps, the way things have been interpreted from the untold numbers of translations of scripture, won't be the way it has been thought and told.
      The TRUE revealing of Yeshua HaMashiach is unfolding. When HE appears, we shall be like HIM for we SHALL PERCEIVE HIM AS HE IS.

      "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit* of grace and supplication. They will look on* me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

      For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:

  3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    More Jains would be nice too... but I'll take Buddhists in a pinch...

  4. Mmargie1966 profile image72
    Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago

    The world would be a better place with fewer haters.

    1. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Nope.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Are you actually saying that the world wouldn't be a better place if there were fewer haters?

        1. calynbana profile image79
          calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          No I clicked on the wrong box haha wow I am really bad with responding to the wrong boxes. I meant the world wouldn't be better with less Christians.

          I don't mean people who claim they are Christians (we could do with a few less holding that mind set), I mean actual Christians. The ones who follow Jesus' command to love their neighbor.

          Also I do not know that much about Buddhism besides that it is a religion that denies the existance of the self. If myself does not exist, and yourself does not exist then there would be no reason to show love tto these non existant selves right? Correct me if my understanding of the religion is incorrect but that would be a world in which there would be no kindness since we would not have selves to awknowlege the kindness right?

          I think that in the quest to release oneself from oneself, other people would be forgotten. In this quest to become selfless wouldn't one become selfish?

          Where Christianity says yes you have a self, you are unique and you should be yourself with the exception of indulging your selfishness. Christians need to put others first. Love them first.

          I do not really understand how having more true Buddhists, could be better than having true Christians.

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well said calynbana, at least I think so. If by saying Christians, as those who adhere to all of Jesus Christ's teachings of moral principles and who love others more than self, doing good works as approved by God and the giving of alms so secretly, only God would see. Then YES, nothing but them... As far as Buddhists, if they aren't Antichrists and don't worship the Beast and do good over evil as lead by their inherent knowledge of good and evil, then they have their place as long as they don't reject the Lord Jesus Christ as being the Son of God.

          2. prairieprincess profile image95
            prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well said, Calynbana. Agreed. Where's the like button?

          3. A Thousand Words profile image70
            A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You are so wrong about Buddhism... it's crazy. Buddhists are selfish in the same since that Christians are...

            Spirituality in and of itself is a bit selfish. Any honest person will admit that. To look inward for knowledge about this world, or to a "God" supposedly separate but working in this reality, one must spend much time doing self-evaluation, in meditation or prayer, making sure oneself is "liberated," or "headed to the Kingdom/right with God/etc."

            A Bodhisattva is one who seeks liberation (or Enlightenment) not only for themselves, but also others. That is basically what Christians do, or should do, I guess, from the perspective of a Christian, i.e. get saved and then "share the news!"

            However, what Buddhism is about is this, essentially. That there is no self as most people would define it. Who you are now, isn't the same person that you were 1 year ago, and you won't be the same person a year from now. There isn't really a "you" like your ego would like there to be. You may have a body, but your stream of consciousness is never-ending until liberation is reached (i.e. reincarnation til Nirvana). They are practioners of the Dharma, and believe the Four Noble Truths explain this plane of existence well.

            I'm going to post an excerpt so that you'll have a better understanding.

            "What is Dharma?

            “Dharma” means “protection”. By practising Buddha’s teachings we protect ourself from suffering and problems. All the problems we experience during daily life originate in ignorance, and the method for eliminating ignorance is to practise Dharma.

            Practising Dharma is the supreme method for improving the quality of our human life. The quality of life depends not upon external development or material progress, but upon the inner development of peace and happiness. For example, in the past many Buddhists lived in poor and underdeveloped countries, but they were able to find pure, lasting happiness by practising what Buddha had taught.

            If we integrate Buddha’s teachings into our daily life, we will be able to solve all our inner problems and attain a truly peaceful mind. Without inner peace, outer peace is impossible. If we first establish peace within our minds by training in spiritual paths, outer peace will come naturally; but if we do not, world peace will never be achieved, no matter how many people campaign for it."

            What are the Four Noble Truths?

            1. Life means suffering.

            2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

            3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

            4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

            That path is the eightfold path

            1. Right View   
            2. Right Intention
            3. Right Speech   
            4. Right Action
            5. Right Livelihood
            6. Right Effort   
            7. Right Mindfulness
            8. Right Concentration

            A summation of Buddhist belief using an analogy of the ocean

            "If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.

            Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path."

            Now, I am not a Buddhist. But these indeed are peaceful people, who do indeed see value in people, just differently from how you or I might see them. I do not personally agree with Buddhism on certain points, nor do I with Christianity, but here's a better understanding for you. Many Christians like to assert things as fact when they really know nothing about the subject.

            1. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Correction, many PEOPLE like to assert things as facts when they really know nothing about the subject. Not just Christians right? :p

              I did not assert it as fact, I said I don't know too much about Buddhism and asked to be corrected if I was incorrect. Thank you for providing me with some new information. If you wouldn't mind could you explain the concept of Karma to me? I have a vague understanding and I would like to know what you think.

              Would you mind explaining to

              1. A Thousand Words profile image70
                A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yes you're right. People do it in general. I try to avoid it, but I do it myself.

                Anyway, if you look at the ocean analogy, karma was illustrated, but I'll find a different explanation.

                "Karma is a law in itself, which operates in its own field without the intervention of any external, independent ruling agency.

                Happiness and misery, which are the common lot of humanity, are the inevitable effects of causes. From a Buddhist point of view, they are not rewards and punishments, assigned by a supernatural, omniscient ruling power to a soul that has done good or evil. Theists, who attempt to explain everything in this and temporal life and in the eternal future life, ignoring a past, believe in a ‘postmortem’ justice, and may regard present happiness and misery as blessings and curses conferred on His creation by an omniscient and omnipotent Divine Ruler who sits in heaven above controlling the destinies of the human race. Buddhism, which emphatically denies such an Almighty, All merciful God-Creator and an arbitrarily created immortal soul, believes in natural law and justice which cannot be suspended by either an Almighty God or an All-compassionate Buddha. According to this natural law, acts bear their own rewards and punishments to the individual doer whether human justice finds out or not.

                There are some who criticise thus: "So, you Buddhists, too, administer capitalistic opium to the people, saying: "You are born poor in this life on account of your past evil karma. He is born rich on account of his good Karma. So, be satisfied with your humble lot; but do good to be rich in your next life. You are being oppressed now because of your past evil Karma. There is your destiny. Be humble and bear your sufferings patiently. Do good now. You can be certain of a better and happier life after death."

                The Buddhist doctrine of Karma does not expound such ridiculous fatalistic views. Nor does it vindicate a postmortem justice. The All-Merciful Buddha, who had no ulterior selfish motives, did not teach this law of Karma to protect the rich and comfort the poor by promising illusory happiness in an after-life.

                While we are born to a state created by ourselves, yet by our own self-directed efforts there is every possibility for us to create new, favourable environments even here and now. Not only individually, but also, collectively, we are at liberty to create fresh Karma that leads either towards our progress or downfall in this very life.

                According to the Buddhist doctrine of Karma, one is not always compelled by an ‘iron necessity’, for Karma is neither fate, nor predestination imposed upon us by some mysterious unknown power to which we must helplessly submit ourselves. It is one’s own doing reacting on oneself, and so one has the possibility to divert the course of one’s Karma to some extent. How far one diverts it depends on oneself.

                Is one bound to reap all that one has sown in just proportion?

                The Buddha provides an answer:

                "If anyone says that a man or woman must reap in this life according to his present deeds, in that case there is no religious life, nor is an opportunity afforded for the entire extinction of sorrow. But if anyone says that what a man or woman reaps in this and future lives accords with his or her deeds present and past, in that case there is a religious life, and an opportunity is afforded for the entire extinction of a sorrow." (Anguttara Nikaya) "

                Here's some sites if you seek more understanding.

                http://www.aboutdharma.org/what-is-dharma.php/

                http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm (scroll towards the bottom. The beginning explains how hindus see Karma. It is quite different for Buddhists)

            2. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you for the lesson! I knew a little bit about it, but Dharma in particular was something I wasn't familiar with. Most of what I know about Buddhism comes from reading "Siddhartha" in high school.

    2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I totally agree.  The world would for sure be a better place with less haters, no  matter who they are.

      Some behaviors that make this world a worse place to be might include things like lying, hiding the truth, defending wrong behavior, hating, standing up for what is wrong, caring more about how accepted you are by people than doing what is right, caring more about being part of a group than doing what is right, putting people down for no reason or bad reasons, ignoring logic and reason and more. 

      To add to that, judging people unfairly, flipping out or having a fit when you don't get your way or win, and trying to hurt those that you disagree with.  Also, trying to make insults subtle, so that when acknowledged you can insult even more....

      I am speaking in general here, to anyone that would do those things.  Not to anyone in particular. 

      My goal here?  To encourage more of an atmosphere of true discussion, and not a place where people get "faux" wins in discussions and debates by cheating.  Cheaters don't even feel satisfied when they win that way.  Kindness, asking questions instead of assuming the worst, and using facts makes a lot better atmosphere for good debates and discussions.  Everyone would win, a truly better place for all.  The only thing that would fail would be truly bad ideas.

  5. Mighty Mom profile image75
    Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

    Now I'm confused.
    I thought we were in agreement here the world is ending 12/21/12.
    Now you're saying 2027.
    Should I build my doomsday shelter now .... or contribute to my IRA?

    1. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Great name "Mighty Mom"... Yes, you've been duped with the nonsense of the world coming to an end this year. At best, the Great Tribulation should start in or around the year 2020, then Jesus Christ's second coming arrives 7 years later, in or around the year 2027.

      Recently, I've been working on discovering the true Sabbath and issues surrounding God's calendar and definition of when each day starts. It's important because it was God's first commandment and will surly hamper our ability to worship Him in a meaningful way if we don't honor His Sabbath. It's a matter of preparing for Him without being ignorant of things so important to Him.

  6. prairieprincess profile image95
    prairieprincessposted 12 years ago

    Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians?

    Okay, take that sentence. Replace it with any other group in society and it would be called hate literature.

    Think about it.

    I am a Christian. Do you hate me? That sentence sounds like you do. Have a wonderful day!

    1. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Understand Ms prairieprincess, the author of this forum, has experienced earlier in life, a kind of shallow religious involvement. If you look at his hubs, it becomes clear he is searching fervently for answers to questions that keep nagging at his soul. He hates no one and deserves all the prayers we might send up for him.

      1. prairieprincess profile image95
        prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        And I don't know anyone's heart but I do know that talking about that regarding a group of people sounds hateful. If I was to ask if the world would be a better place if there were fewer ______________, (insert any other group) I would be in trouble. It's not okay to use that kind of language about any group whatsoever. Hate language towards Christians, or any other group, should not be allowed. It seems that it's become okay to talk about Christians in this way when it's absolutely not with any other group.

        That's my two cents worth and I will leave it at that.

        1. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          The United States of America is fast becoming a nation of Sodomites. Every year, the percentage of pro homosexuals is ramping  up, till this year it's 50% strong. The Antichrists driving this movement would be amiss if all believers in Jesus Christ were to vacate this land, even though it was founded by such. I bring this up because it should be considered before we find ourselves their total victims.

          What will you say, when a knife is placed to your neck and commanded that unless you denounce that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, your head will be cut off? It is prophesied to happen. Are you ready for that level of persecution?

          1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
            EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            If you claim Christianity so strongly, how many gay people have you killed? How many non virgins women who married have you killed? How many people suspected of witchcraft have you killed? These are all things listed in the old testament that your clinging to for your homophobia problem that you must do.

            1. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Christianity not Judaism. New covenant.

              1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Then nothing in the old testament at all matters. Homosexuality is not against God. The commandments don't even hold water as they are in the old testament. Or is it going to be cherry picking on what to follow and what not to?

                1. calynbana profile image79
                  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't know. I am not my homosexual so it does not concern me. Sexuality is nobody's business but the person involved (and the people they choose to involve :p) The role of Christians is not to judge, it is to tell people the good news. (the Gospel) if the people don't want to hear it, Jesus said to dust of our shoulders and move on.

                  The problem seems to be that Christians are human like everybody else, pride gets involved, and the desire to be "right". smile

                  1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                    EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I think you just hit the nail on the head with that one.

                  2. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Dust our feet, and I do not know why that random my is in there. I am sorry I do not know what I was thinking here, was a little past my bedtime :p

          2. prairieprincess profile image95
            prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I don't know if I am completely ready but I am aware that it is coming. That is why I am speaking up now with whatever bit of freedom we have left. Canada has much less freedom than the USA.

            It is very much becoming "anti-Christian" but that doesn't mean that I accept it.

          3. prairieprincess profile image95
            prairieprincessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            And I will never denounce my LORD. I know, Peter said this, too, and so I refuse to brag. I hope I will not denounce my LORD. I am not ashamed of Him.

            smile

          4. janesix profile image60
            janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            This is one good reason the question was asked in the first place, i would guess.

          5. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Hey Rd I don't want to sound judgemental but I feel that this type of language often discourages non believers from looking into Christianity.

            It is strong language that may verify preconcieved notions of what Christianity is, strengthening the stereotypes.

            Just my opinion, but I think it is something worth considering.  smile

            1. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              At least you knew better than to claim it was my language. In fact, as you probably know, it's God's language, something I'd think about before complaining about.
              Do you not  realize that Jesus Christ will take control by force? And that His believers will be persecuted to death? A change is coming and soft peddling His Living Word isn't the way to go. Now don't take me wrong. I don't wish harm, but there should be a sense of urgency concerning God's call to repentance.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I am aware that it is the language of the Bible. However we are in a forum with many non believers. This would be a place for treading carefully.

                Nothing worse than being a stumbling block.

                1. janesix profile image60
                  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Calynbana, you are just as much of a stumbling block as rd

                  1. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Please tell me when you think I am being a stumbling block.  I will try to be less defensive? I am not sure in what way you would like me to adjust my behavior.

              2. Cagsil profile image72
                Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Fantasy. A dead man tell no tales.
                HIS believers, not the believers of Christianity or any other religion in existence. If Christians actually behaved as Jesus did, then this world would indeed have a lot less conflict.
                You're correct in saying that a change is coming. However, as awareness grows, so will be the numbers of those who are no longer diminished by the capacity of religion. The new awareness coming will do away with all mysticism based religions, which is about 99% of the religions of the world.
                roll

                1. rdcast profile image60
                  rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Jesus is far from dead. I use the phrase "believers in Jesus Christ" apposed "Christians", That's been highly abused by usurpers.

                  The change is brought by Jesus Christ.

          6. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Holy Crap... homosexuality is at 50% ?!?!  Where were those numbers when I was single.  And by the way I am a nice holy bi-sexual... Never committed sodomy when I was with women...  There were more interesting orifices. 

            BTW this was my warning that you are coming dangerously close to hate speech and my finger is hovering over the button awaiting your next oh so informed and holier than thou post.

            1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
              EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              The News has been talking about 50% of America supporting the LGBT community...unfortunately many are taking it that the 50% who support equal rights are all homosexual.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Haha I was wondering about that number. Didn't sound quite right to me...of course I don't really keep up with what is happening down in the states.

              2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Of course.  Which leads to the conclusion that all pro-lifers are fetuses and those fighting against deforestation are trees.  Got it.  Still considering asking hubby if I can go out looking...  If half the women I see are lesbians then hunting should be good.

                1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                  EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  lol, go for it!

            2. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I didn't say homosexuality was at 50%. That's your fabrication. And I don't care to hear about what your preferred orifice is.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                No that's your edit smile

                1. rdcast profile image60
                  rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  No, that's your lie

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    And with that statement you just showed me everything I need to know about how seriously you really take the word of God.  smile

  7. MarleneB profile image82
    MarleneBposted 12 years ago

    That is such a loaded question. I don't think the world will be a better place with fewer of any type of person except people who deliberately hurt other people. That's actually my answer.

    Folks, is this not the most heated forum on HubPages today? Why is there so much animosity in this forum? Can't we all just get along? smile

    1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
      EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If we could all just get along, discussions like this would never take place lol

      1. MarleneB profile image82
        MarleneBposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Touche!

    2. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      These discussions are highly entertaining, and when the insults are kept to a minimum they can be very educational for everybody involved. I think it is great smile

      1. MarleneB profile image82
        MarleneBposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        They ARE entertaining. So, sometimes, I step in and see what's going on, but then I tiptoe out 'cuz I don't want to get caught in the crossfire.

        One thing I have learned about these type of forums (religion and such), is that you had better know your stuff inside and out. It's like a war sometimes. If you aren't 100% committed to your position, you WILL get knocked down. I guess, after all, seeing it from your point of view, there is a lot to be learned.

  8. profile image52
    holyrollerposted 12 years ago

    There is something called truth and absolutes Darkwolf - some information is sometimes neccessary BEFORE you make a decision......in the Bible written over 2000 years ago ( yes proven by archological finds and secular history ) Romans 1:27 written by the apostle Paul some 60 years after Christ died ( also proved by regular historical documents not "Christian") Paul is descibing what happens to people who deny God and His authority (This is not an "opinion" or "theory" or "Biggotry" if you are honest with yourself and LOOK around you will see this is fact) ...men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and recieving in themselves that recompence (reward) of their error which was due....... mmmmmm does that "sound" like aides?  remember 2000 years ago......

    1. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It does indeed holyroller(love the name). But other recompense as well. Such as a broken country that had started by worshiping Him. Most people today don't realize that all our ivy league colleges were built to teach the clergy. Our country was founded on faith in Jesus Christ. Time has come for everyone to choose. No one will be able to escape this.

    2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
      EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Perhaps you should read my hub, speaking out on homosexuality. Maybe then you can stand to actually learn a thing or two. But of course, because the bible says it's wrong, any further excuse to make the bible right is acceptable. You obviously don't know where AIDS originated, but of course, you can't do research into it either. It's easier to take the time to hate people for not being like you then it is to try and understand anything outside of yourself.

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Accusing others of hating when they haven't made any such claims, makes you out to be a liar. Care to address this?

        1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
          EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          As soon as you address my previous question of how many witches, non-virgin married woman, and homosexuals you've killed lately, I'll address this.

  9. rdcast profile image60
    rdcastposted 12 years ago

    Chasuk is strangely silent. He must have slipped in the tub.

    1. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe chasuk doesnt live on the internet.

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        it is quite the disease

      2. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        did you know he pays me to keep things stirred up?

        Not much, but every little bit helps

        You could donate a little yourself you know

        I don't ask for much, just enough to keep this palatial suite beneath this overpass.

        1. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Thats not fair, he doesnt pay me sh/t

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            that'z cuz you don't have the shiz on the skeletons in his closet

            1. profile image0
              Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              The skeletons in my closet are named Larry, Curly and Moe, and they asked me to tell you that they have showered their shiz off since last you had dinner together. Oh, and next time, they get to pick the restaurant; that place under the overpass apparently sucked.

              1. rdcast profile image60
                rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                wat a waste of good hospitality

      3. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Chasuk is experiencing painful pins-and-needles in both thighs, and the doctor has advised laying prone instead of sitting at his computer desk. I'm composing this with one finger, lying on my back on the sofa, on an iPad.

        1. Jerami profile image60
          Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I understand that completely. There are days I can't sit at the computer or walk across the floor If I tried.

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Do you know what causes it?

            1. Jerami profile image60
              Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Old age and a degenerative disk disorder stemming from an engery almost 40 years ago. Most all of my disc have simply melted away

              1. rdcast profile image60
                rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                well God bless both you guys. My prayers go out for the both of you. It's amazing how little doctors seem to know. It's like they know less and less with every new automated procedure. I was rushed to the top heart treatment hospital on earth here in NY and was put on the table because a renowned cardiologist said I was having a heart attack. After the cath and many other expensive tests, the doctor could no longer look me in the eye for the misdiagnoses. Simply put, they don't know what is wrong with my heart. They examined it every which way and said nothing is wrong with it. The 30 min ambulance ride alone cost $1200 and the rest is like a bottomless pit(insurance took care of it). Perhaps God healed it just before the cath. They know every symptom known to man can be googled, something they aren't even willing to do.

                Point being, today, doctors rely on computers to analyze any number of test, without ever using their own knowledge to diagnose. This makes for a mighty weak and nonintuitive health care system. I advise self diagnosis by internet research, something doctors hate. They know every symptom known to man can be Googled, something they're not even willing to do.

        2. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
          ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Chasuk YESHUA is the HEALER and I am going to pray that HE heals you from head to toe and keep praying until you are completely healed. I am going to pray all night and all day and all week and all month if I have to.

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you. :-)

            1. ShalahChayilJOY profile image61
              ShalahChayilJOYposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You're welcome I promise I will keep praying and if need be I will fast too

  10. Theophanes profile image96
    Theophanesposted 12 years ago

    There will always be a large population of self-righteous, self-important, narcissistic jerks and sociopaths. They'll always cling to whatever religion they can warp to feed their own hateful self-serving needs and when one isn't available they'll make up a new one. If Christianity were to disappear something else would take its place.

    1. A Thousand Words profile image70
      A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Truth. But, if there ceases to be self-serving religions as there are now, those numbers might decrease. If more people thought like Buddhists (to an extent) or like Native Americans (to an extent), then those self-serving type of views would be looked down upon by the greater society.

      1. calynbana profile image79
        calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        The problem is that most religions teach people to not be self serving. The problems do not lie within the religions, they lie within the human mentality. There are plenty of self serving people who claim to be Buddhist, just like there are plenty of self serving people who claim to be Christian. There are also plenty ( a little less but still plenty) of both groups who are not self serving.

        It is not possible to lump people into categories that fit them absolutely. Not all Christians are one way, not all Buddhists are one way, and not all bus drivers are one way. IThe only lable that can work that way is human.

  11. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    Wow... seriously?  Is this turning into "Atheists should hate everyone not just me?" because I don't really see benefit other than having someone else to hide behind to take the heat off yourself and your faith...

    And with the next round of questions lets try "Racists should hate the Dutch too!"

    Ooo! Ooo!  I know...  Rednecks should hate women as well as gays because pastels clash with Cammo no matter who's wearing it!

    1. livelonger profile image76
      livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Fortunately for them, there are some reductive atheists who are more than willing to do just that.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        And it is just as idiotic for them to do it as it is for someone to ASK for them to do it.

        1. livelonger profile image76
          livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm totally with you. smile

          BTW your "racists should hate the Dutch" reminded me of a funny bit from one of the Austin Powers flicks. lol

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            smile  Come on... wooden shoes and windmills?  Who WOULDN'T hate that... and *shudders* all those damn tulips....

          2. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            "There are two kinds of people I can't stand in this world people who are intolerant of others and the Dutch" Love that.

            I was thinking about the old testament thing and you make a good point, it's difficult to differentiate between the Jewish faith and the Jewish nation at that point and though the word of god was used as a justification for violence it was not religiously motivated but politically motivated, I think.

            1. livelonger profile image76
              livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That's the one! Michael Caine was great as Austin's father.

              1. Josak profile image60
                Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Michael Caine is great in everything.

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Ditto.  smile

                2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  +1 for the comment

                  and an additional +1 for hijacking a thread with a worthier topic smile

        2. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I only responded to the self righteous Jew myself. I tend to to that. Maybe they should get a free pass - IDK - chosen and all?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Mark you know I love you and all that but seriously?  The reasons I am willing to point out issues in my own faith were given earlier... I think that... to a point... you have the same kind of thing going on most of the time... However you are so abrasive at times that you make me WANT to become a conservative Christian just so I don't have to agree with you on certain points. 

            Could it be you are a devout theist that uses a false personality in order to drive people into the arms of God?  If so you are doing a great job!

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Don't be silly. Me being reasonable is unlikely to do that. Arms of god? lol

              Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the history of the Jewish religion? Israel? The Holocaust? Goodness know show many other self inflicted persecutions?

              This is what happens when you divide yourself off from the rest of humanity and claim to be special. Not to mention the money lending. Long story.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Then you know nothing of human nature hon smile the easiest way in the world to get someone to cling to an idea is to insult that idea.  That's the reason so many Christians ride the persecution train.

                Go ahead... disagree with me smile

    2. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      lol

  12. feenix profile image60
    feenixposted 12 years ago

    Mark Knowles wrote, "You guys are just louder. Simple as that."

    No, that is not it at all. The truth is, all of the so-called atheists on this site are afraid to be critical of Jews and Judaism.

    They know that they cannont get away putting down Jews and Judaism the same way that they can get away with putting down Christians.

    Atheists know that if they say one critical thing about Jews or Judaism, they risk being suspended or banned for using "hate speech" and carrying out "personal attacks."

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ROFLMAO... From what I've seen of the atheists on these boards banning is a badge of honor. I think you might be off base...

      Once again do you WANT more hatred?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        He is just jealous. He wants to be as persecuted as the Jews.

      2. feenix profile image60
        feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Perhaps I should have said that atheists do not attack devoutly religious Jews because they are afraid of being called the A.S.-word (anti-Semetic).

        And based on my observations, a number of the "renown atheists" on this site do a whole lot more antagonizing and instigating, and spew a whole lot more hatred, than other groups of people who contribute to HubPages.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I guess that depends on point of view... I've seen quite a bit of hatred from the Christian camp too... and no end of instigating and antagonizing.  As I am part of neither group really I think it's about neck and neck for who needs a collective Italian head slap most.

      3. Hollie Thomas profile image61
        Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I can honestly say that I am a "proud" and yet to be banned atheist...It's been almost 12 months.

    2. Josak profile image60
      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think that the Atheist stance on Judaism has been made pretty clear here, the issue with Judaism is more than you are letting on, there is a racial factor to consider, often anti Jewish attacks have been at the Jewish race not the Jewish faith (take Nazis for example) I think that is why people are more hesitant to criticize so here it is plainly, the Jewish faith is just as offensive to me as the Christian faith in it's beliefs. So there you go now you have nothing to complain about, if it were the Jewish lobby campaigning against say gay marriage in the US I would be just as upset with them, but it isn't it's the christian lobby.

      1. feenix profile image60
        feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Then, why don't you come out with at least one forum topic that is solely critical of Judaism?

        And better yet, why don't you post a hub that is solely about your opposition to Judaism?

        After all, you and many of the atheists on this network have certainly expended a whole lot of keystrokes on putting down Christians.

        1. livelonger profile image76
          livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          In my experience, 99% of the "crusading" atheists that endlessly attack Christians were brought up Christian themselves. They almost never have any knowledge of Judaism or any familiarity with Jews beyond what they were taught via their religion.

          They are purging their Christian demons, not Jewish ones.

          1. Jerami profile image60
            Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            My grandfather once told me that issues of life are like limbs on a tree.
            The leaves on the limbs are like excuses and alabies.

              Ya gotta strip all the leaves off of the limbs before we can see what the tree really looks like.

               I think you have just painted an accurate picture of what the tree really looks like.

          2. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I think this may well be true.

          3. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            To add to that... There are currently 0 Jews that are going to be standing outside of the hospital when my new son is born (yes we have dangly bits on ultrasound) insisting that I circumcise him. 

            I think that's because they have come to realize that God has not yet convinced me of the need to cut pieces of my son's penis off in his name. As such the Jews have concluded that if GOD can't do it then it's not their place to try it themselves.

            On the other hand had I chosen to end my pregnancy then I would have had to have waded though the permanent camp of Christians that have established themselves in front of our Women's clinic to do such.

            They... having seen that God has failed to convince me that abortion is an abomination have decided that he must need their help.

            So basically when a Jew does something in his God's name to screw with my life then I will write that hub or make that thread.  Until then I will eat me my matzoh ball soup and be happy smile

            1. Josak profile image60
              Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              +1 on the comment and additionally congratulations!

            2. livelonger profile image76
              livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Mazel tov (wink) on your son!

              People who don't meddle in the lives of others are respected by decent people. Not meddling in others' (Gentiles') religious choices is a matter of policy in Judaism, but most Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindus, etc manage to do so, too.

              To Motown's point: the issue is jerks, not religious adherence.

          4. feenix profile image60
            feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No, no, no.

            A considerable number of the atheists in this country, and probably on HubPages too, grew up in deeply-religious Jewish homes.

            In fact, the number of "former Jews" who are atheists is disproportionately higher than the number of "former Christians" who are atheists.

            Furthermore, many of the people who have the biggest beef with Christians are "former Jews" who are now atheists.

            All I will say is, when it comes to the paragraph above, I know what I am talking about because I was born, raised and spent more than half of my adult life in Hollywood -- and for about the past 30 years, I have been living in New York City.

            1. livelonger profile image76
              livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              None I've seen on HubPages. And, yes, about 10% of Jews are atheists. The other 90% of Jews don't take issue with Jews (or anyone else) being atheist. There is no commandment to believe.

              Being an atheist does not negate your Jewishness.

              That hasn't been my experience. Most Jews don't like the anti-science, socially-regressive policies of the Christianist right, if that's what you mean. As Ed Koch said, "Jews will never vote for anyone who doesn't believe in evolution." smile

              1. feenix profile image60
                feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                A long time ago, I learned that it is very difficult to exchange points of view with someone who makes it up as he/she goes along.

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  erm... isn't that what you are doing?  Basing "facts" on your own limited experiences in exactly two areas of the U.S.?

                  1. feenix profile image60
                    feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Negative, I am not doing that at all.

                    It is just that in venues such as this one, it is impossible for one to thoroughly flesh out what he/she is actually aware of, as well as the full scope of his/her knowledge, or the full scope of what his/her knowledge is based on or was derived from.

                    But I am learning, because for one thing, I have come to realize that the best way to communicate in these forums is to come up with a whole lot of witty and clever soundbites.

                    Furthermore, the references I made concerning my observations and experiences in Los Angeles and New York City were merely examples that I used for the sake of expediency.

                2. livelonger profile image76
                  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  What exactly that I wrote do you think I made up? I can provide sources for the non-opinion ones (i.e. not the ones where I talk about my experience), if you'll offer an apology.

                  1. feenix profile image60
                    feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Hey, I apologize. I regret that I responded to you in the silly and juvenile way I did.

            2. Josak profile image60
              Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Well lets do a test, atheists please respond to this: Were you raised secularly, Christian, Jewish or other?

              I was raised hard line Catholic.

              1. Jane Bovary profile image88
                Jane Bovaryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Secularly..pretty much.

              2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Most of the atheists in my church were also raised Christian... My experience shows a high number of them were Baptists.

                1. Josak profile image60
                  Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  *blinks* *rubs eyes* Atheists in my church is still there... This sounds like a really cool church.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    LOL!  We've got Atheists and Wiccans and Christians... oh my!  And we all get along swimmingly.

                  2. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Attend a UUA church, and you will meet a lot of atheists... and pagans, and Buddhists, etc. And Christians, of course.

              3. feenix profile image60
                feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I was raised in what could be described as a loosely-Christian home.

                Specifically, even though my parents believed in God and that Jesus is The Son of God, they hardly ever went to church, I never saw either of them reading The Holy Bible, and they never preached "Christian doctrine" to my sister and me.

                And today, I am not at all a "devout Christian." In fact, before I joined HubPages, I saw a lot of validity in the way that many atheists see things.

                However, since coming here, I have been completely turned off by atheism, because there are many on HubPages who are trying to shove their "non-belief" down everyone else's throat.

                And the primary reason why I have such a dim view of the kind of atheists described above is the following:

                Similar to what I stated before, I grew up in a home in which my parents never tried to shove any kind of belief or non-belief down my throat.

                1. artblack01 profile image61
                  artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I can feel you, as an atheist, let me point out that you have got to look at the individual, I usually do with believers as well, I have to.  I can't hate all believers, I would be alone in my family, since my entire Family is some form of Christianity, a few of my cousins are various religious states, from pagan to buddhist to wiccan.  Each person, especially many atheists are angry.  Why are atheists so Angry?  Look at the news.  There are laws trying to place religious authority over school, medical issues and even national issues.  If it weren't for the fact that I am protesting religion I wouldn't even use the word Atheist to describe myself.

              4. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
                EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I was raised pentecostal-baptist.

                Before I dropped Christianity all together I knew the name of ever book of the bible, backwards and forwards, knew whether they were old testament or new testament just from the name, and knew all the most popular verses in it. Then I realized things didn't make sense and walked away from it all.

                Just to answer the question wink

              5. profile image0
                Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Fundamentalist Christian.

              6. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                That was my guess. I was raised atheist, encouraged to doubt everything and trust in science. Just thought I would join :p I do trust in science and that is why I had to look into religion more seriously.

              7. artblack01 profile image61
                artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                My Mother was a Catholic and is now a Methodist.

        2. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I have never started a forum or hub attacking any faith but as i said people are more hesitant to do so because of the racial aspect and less interested in doing so because there are so many more Christians and they are the ones attempting to force their faith on others in our lives

          But seriously there are according to the Israeli Bureau of statistics fewer than 14 million Jewish people in the world there are billions of Christians is this giving you any clues about why people might talk about Christians more?

        3. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You know, I don't really have a dog in this fight - except that I am human.  Why do we have to work so hard to be critical of anyone's religion or lack thereof?  Why can't we simply be critical of others who treat people like crap, do and say rotten things to each other, and insist that no matter who the 'other' is, they are simply so much 'better' than them.  Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians?  Jews?  Buddhists?  Atheists?  Nope.  But it would sure be a lot better place if there were fewer jerks.

          1. feenix profile image60
            feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You, my friend, are a very wise and caring person.

            As they often say in my neck of the woods, you told it like it is.

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              feenix, I'm sorry.  I never acknowledged this very kind compliment.  Thank you.  smile

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I love you Mo.  Seriously.  Run away with me smile

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Love you too, Melissa.  I'll run to wherever you want as long as there's good coffee and people are kind to each other.  wink

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Hubby makes a good cup of coffee (a skill I have never learned) but my family is a bit too blunt in general to be called kind.  Loving maybe smile  The cat is pretty nice though.

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I can handle blunt. I used the word kind, not nice.  Kindness is genuine, niceness is phony crap.  There is a huge difference IMO.  I love cats.  Can I bring my husband along?  We'll just make a commune of it! smile

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Sure I have 4 bedrooms.  Since everyone but the teenager sleeps in the bed with me and hubby (including the cat) You and your hubby can each have your own room!  Does he clean showers?  No one here can seem to manage that right now... (I have an excuse though)

                  2. livelonger profile image76
                    livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I'd love to join the commune too (I make a mean cup of coffee using a pourover) but I'm allergic to cats. Drats! mad

          3. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Very true big_smile

          4. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Motown, you make an excellent point, and others have echoed it since.  The world would be better without jerks for sure, but to suggest less of a particular group of people is alarming.  Its one of the most uncool things I have seen in a while.

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you, oceans. smile

              To be fair to the OP, I don't believe he was suggesting lessening the number of Christians in such a manner as to eliminate them. I think the question might possibly have been worded differently and established the same dialogue...would it have been more palatable to you worded as such:

              Would the world be a better place if more Christians chose to pursue the teachings of Buddhism?

              TBH, that's what I read into the OP.

              1. PhoenixV profile image68
                PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I think the overall atmosphere is anti-christian. I think it is supported and fostered. Like reddit. No class. Regardless of the intent of the OP, it was kind of the straw...

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  In all fairness, the atmosphere of the HP forums often turns into a sludge pit of anti-HUMAN.

                  The Christians on the site are just as quick to attack anyone (and I do mean ANYONE) who doesn't concede to their arguments.

                  What it boils down to is immaturity among folks who are grown and should act that way. Whether you're a Christian (like me) or not, you need to bring a thick skin into these forums. Religion is a hot button issue - and the only way one gets ahead when discussing it is when they keep a cool head.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    *Grins*  It was particularly hard coming into the forums for me because my faith is ALL ABOUT discussing comparative theology and learning and growing from interactions between all faiths and none.  We have juice and stale cookies over the same conversations that bring teeth out on these forums. 

                    The O.P. would have been a perfectly normal conversation starter for my church and no one would have batted an eyelash.  I still get enlightenment from these forums... which is why I'm semi-addicted... However the enlightenment often more along the lines of "This is what happens when people turn nasty and closed-minded over faith".  And yes often I am left with the impression of oversensitive zealots and mindless sheep.  It's an object lesson at least... and a warning of what can happen when people want to be heard more than they want to listen. I've seen discussions of religious differences at their best (which is beautiful)and at their worst (which is why our religion causes so many wars-apparently-)

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                If it had been worded in such a way, then it would have been a very cool question. smile

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I personally think that maybe he worded the question the way he did to grab folks' attention quickly and jump start their thought processes. smile

                  1. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Partly, yes. Let's just say that I never imagined any of the meanings that people have managed to infer.

                    I am very literal-minded, and I tend to phrase things very literally. I do this out of the belief that people should say what they MEAN, and not leave anything open to inference. However, this approach is often criticized, so I thought I would try something different here.

              3. profile image0
                Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks. smile

                I should have had you write my question. smile

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I know right?  She's a doll.

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Thank you, darling.  Backatcha! smile

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I told her also that I liked how she phrased what looks like a great question. 

                  Anyone that knows these boards, knows there are people that ACTUALLY want less Christians in the world.  Its fair to read the original post in that light, considering all we see not just here, but in the world, news, etc.  Many DO want there to be fewer Christians period.  It would have been a great debate, still can be, of what it would have been like to have Christianity say, removed from the picture.  We know for sure, that things would be vastly different! 

                  What Jesus brings to the world, is a good thing.  When I dialogue with people with views 180 to mine, the funny thing is, they too agree with the morality of Jesus so often, and actually agree he taught good things, even if tough sometimes.  (Thinking of others more than self, etc.)

                3. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't think so.  Your question was fine.  I am a very sensitive person, and a Christian to boot, but I think folks get their panties in a bunch but reading things WAY too literally, rather than giving it some thought and coming to understand the original intent.  And, like I said later, I sometimes think it's a matter of immaturity among folks who are grown and should act that way.  HP would have taken the post down if they felt it was hateful.

                  smile

                  IMO, you did nothing but start a great debate.

          5. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You know the protracted level of disagreement in this thread is starting to get ridiculous.  The above was my first comment on the thread.  I didn't mean that anyone in this thread was a jerk - I simply was aiming to point out that people who insist on working so hard to be critical, and to carry around and us v. them mentality are in actuality the 'problem.' 

            In the end, what it boils down to is that we are all members of a flawed human race.  That implies that individual members of our race may be personally flawed.  We react from extreme emotion at times, when the discussion is anything but emotional.  We walk into conversations with our hackles raised because of what we 'think' the conversation is actually about, and we throw our share of digs at people expecting impunity, but refuse to allow others the same exemption from punishment when they do the same.  In even more instances, we don't ask others whether they meant to insult, we just assume they do, get defensive, and attack back - to what may have been a very innocent, but maybe poorly worded remark.

            Truth be told - there are many zealots, mindless sheep, jerks, and illogical folks in the world.  If you aren't one - don't be offended when you see the words spoken as a generalization.  As far as the persecution complex goes - please.  Most people don't actually know or care about us in the world to take the time to persecute us.  So, if you're feeling persecuted - yes.  It's probably a little bit of paranoia on your part.  Until I flat out call someone as asshole or tell them I hate them and intend to do them harm because they're Christian, Gay, Jewish, Unitarian, Atheist, or believe they're descended from aliens, I am not speaking hatred.  I am not insulting anyone in particular.  But to acknowledge that there are those folks among those groups (in general) that might be extreme in their thoughts, expression, or actions is absolutely acceptable.

            Put on the armor, thicken your skin, and for pete's sake, don't take everything so personally.

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              The problem with using insults is that they are not facts. You can only approach the truth using facts. Truth be told - some of people's character flaws here have been their lack of honesty. You cannot arrive at that conclusion by all capping "YOU ARE A LIAR". You show them where they are in error with facts and demonstrate their dishonesty.

              In the above example it was shown to be true because insults like: mindless sheep, zealots and suffering from persecution complex; were just thrown out there. They made the mistake when they used the term: persecution complex. Most reasonable people with just a little bit of honesty can infer that: mindless sheep and zealots are directed at believers. The reason why the term persecution complex is pivotal is because it is specific and it could be shown through logic that "although- yes - an atheist could have a persecution complex" in would be illogical to have one in this particular context. So when they claimed that it was just "generalized insults" it was shown to be true and demonstrated with logic that they were just being dishonest.


              Now here is where your philosophy gets even worse and I have seen it on other threads.

              You wrote: don't be offended when you see the words spoken as a generalization. 



              Here is a very pertinent facet that many here seem to not be aware of.

              Some people are dishonest thieves. Are you a dishonest thief? If you are not then you can't be offended; by your argument and philosophy's standards, which obviously fail spectacularly. Some kind of rationalization that insults are valid or that a shotgun approach to hurling insults is valid, because "hey you just might get lucky with an insult" is now shown to be : bogus. see plurium interrogationum


              Are you a dishonest thief?

              Are you a mindless sheep?

              Are YOU suffering from a persecution complex?

              Are you a zealot?

              Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians?

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I am not a dishonest thief.
                Not a mindless sheep.
                Not suffering from a persecution complex.
                Not a zealot.
                No - I think I stated that quite clearly in my original response to the OP.

                So, I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding that. 

                As far as 'my' philosophy, it is simply this - don't take things personally.  Period.  That is where most miscommunication begins, and in some instances, such as this one, actual communication can never again make a showing.  The question was indeed a 'philosophical' one.  We weren't attempting (on either side) to promote an answer to the question that was absolute truth - simply weighing the options of what the world would look like in a hypothetical situation.

                In my experience, a great number of folks are never actually insulted - they just FEEL that they have been.

                1. PhoenixV profile image68
                  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  But if you are a "dishonest" thief why would anyone believe you are telling the truth?

                  See how it works?  Or more correctly see how it fails miserably? Get it now?

                  1. Cagsil profile image72
                    Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    A dishonest thief is a dead person. lol lol

                  2. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I can see that it fails miserably (on both sides) because it's a game of semantics.  I don't do semantics. 

                    What I see is a bunch of folks arguing about something that I believe is inconsequential and not germane to the OP.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  MelissaBarrett knew exactly what she was doing..... she insulted in general to particular posts at particular times.  When people responded she and others accused them of having a complex and more.  I find her manner to be immoral, and that was even before she judged about how I would face Jesus and God one day, and how she is the better Christian. 

                  The irony is thick all around here.  She still backs it up, but bad behavior and untruths don't naturally stand on their own, they struggle and for good reason.  Is that my fault?  No..but when I keep pointing it all out, it explains why she wants me to be so wrong, about anything at all, and why she stopped speaking with me.  I didn't even return the same to her, and I could have.  Where is the disconnect, can people be honest and deeply look inside to see if I am making stuff up or am I totally right?   My goal, is that people look a bit more deeply at things, and their own worldview.  Bad ideas fail on their own, no one needs to even try.  The only thing upholding them in certain places is thugging, bullying, and abusing power and people, wherever that is done.  We see it in the world for sure.  Truth will always stand though, no matter what.  If one the wrong side of it, that person will be frustrated and want to blame others, but it better work out to be for good reasons or it just contributes to a worse community and world to be in.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Motown, some facts to recall as you may not have noticed or remember.  Those disparaging terms put out to no one in particular in this group by MelissaBarrett, came at a particular time, after particular people joined the conversation and made great points yet to be refuted about the OP and its ideas. 

              You say, "Truth be told - there are many zealots, mindless sheep, jerks, and illogical folks in the world.  If you aren't one - don't be offended when you see the words spoken as a generalization.  As far as the persecution complex goes - please.  Most people don't actually know or care about us in the world to take the time to persecute us.  So, if you're feeling persecuted - yes.  It's probably a little bit of paranoia on your part.  Until I flat out call someone as asshole or tell them I hate them and intend to do them harm because they're Christian, Gay, Jewish, Unitarian, Atheist, or believe they're descended from aliens, I am not speaking hatred.  I am not insulting anyone in particular.  But to acknowledge that there are those folks among those groups (in general) that might be extreme in their thoughts, expression, or actions is absolutely acceptable.

              Put on the armor, thicken your skin, and for pete's sake, don't take everything so personally."

              I think you are right there are many zelots, mindless sheep, jerks, and illogical folks in the world.  I pointed how how some were in this thread when they were, and showed how.  My request to Melissa shows my thoughts were correct about her, as I requested she back up her insults to whoever they were to.  She never owned her words, and then used the situation as you do now and others have, to further put people down.  What happened in effect, is she got to get in her insults to people, she didn't have to take responsibility, and when others asked her to back it up or stop, she didn't and did further putting down, and had a fit about her perceived injustice to her friend.

              My first encounter with you was more positive, I was more impressed, but you back her and others bad behavior, as if any of this were about numbers, and that people take "sides" over truth and morality.  Who knows why she and others that aren't atheists are so chummy with them but a few ideas have been discussed and I think its obvious why.  Its one route to take when you look at what is allowed here on HubPages.  Thing is, its the wrong side.  Facts, truth and morality trump put downs, ad homs, and general thugging and even outright lying for whatever reason. 

              People who side with that will not win where it counts.  What counts is not approval of particular people or pats on the back by "powers that be."  What counts is facts, truth, morality, kindness, and helping the world to be a better place.  Ideas like the OP don't encourage that, nor does all that followed, and in fact encourages the opposite.  I disagree on your take, and you just joined in assuming people took it personally.  I know it wasn't personal to me, as I am none of those things, which is why Melissa failed to point it out to me or anyone. 

              Oddest thing of all, people are really buying the suggestion that she was just making a random statement to no one in here, when she had been posting for days already.  Its all so dishonest its alarming.  This isn't what friends are about, backing them when they are wrong, by the way.  This isn't what being included is about, unless you want to be included with people who act like that.

              Asking people to tie insults to facts that prove the insults is still a good thing, it always will be.  I invited anyone to do that.  There is a reason it hasn't been done.  Your attempt fails...  its not about thicker skin at all.  If I didn't have thick skin I wouldn't be in here, but I am confident in my ideas being on the right side of things, and welcome being shown wrong.  Try it...lay off the put downs...not because I am so "hurt or thin skinned" but because we can have real logical debate and discussion instead, the point of these forums.

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I find it interesting that you felt that my last post was 'backing' anyone, as I did not participate at all in your conversation with Melissa, because I felt that it had degenerated into a silly argument unrelated in any way to the OP.  I did not indicate that either of you was right or wrong, because neither of you was directing anything to me.


                If you have any familiarity with my posts (which I see you do not), I do not insult anyone in these forums.  I may disagree with them - and passionately - but I am very clear about my 'arguments," I tend NOT to use sweeping generalizations, and ultimately, I do not claim that anything I say is an undeniable truth - I post only opinion.

                I apologize if something I've said or done has offended you, but I think it's possible that because I didn't jump on your bandwagon and castigate Melissa, you may have taken offense at something that was never meant to offend anyone.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Read the end of that post that you typed that I quoted.... its not just opinion...you are stating what people are doing in your opinion  and are asking them to stop.  Its already been clarified it wasn't that anything was taken personally and why.  You used the same terminology as LiveLonger and Melissa, the very same names, so it was for good reason I said what I said, besides the high fiving I see amongst you all. 

                  I am just saying I saw a change at some point along the way, which is fine, but I just observed that.

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, I was hoping to throw in a diplomatic view of the situation that might soothe the ruffled feathers on both sides, but apparently I have failed.  Thank goodness I'm not the SOS.

                    Oh, well.  Get to know me a little better and you might feel differently.  Perhaps not.  As far as Melissa and Jason, it happened that I agree with a great deal of what both have to say.  If I make that agreement public, I suppose I can see how you might feel that you've been ganged up on.  But I am not such a person to castigate another simply because someone else is doing so, or to praise someone else for the same reason.

                    So, I am gracefully going to bow out of a conversation and a situation that is actually none of my business and let you all duke it out on your own.

                    I'm not sure how, but I'm sorry if you interpreted my post to mean I was justifying someone's bad behavior, when in actuality, I was simply expressing my own opinion that I did not view it as such.  I'd have been a duck and let it slide off my back I think.

                    *shrugs*

                    To each her own.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Motown, I saw PhoenixV for instance, bring up great points to Chasuk about some things he observes between Christianity and Buddhism, and he never answered it and went on to start new threads off of this one, which is fine but shows something.  Others were trying to discuss the OP if read just as a comparison between religions.  It wasn't discussed.

                  I discussed it a little bit too, but you make a good point.  Insults like what Melissa did to "noone in particular" not only don't help, but detract from what could be a great discussion!  I would have loved that.

        4. profile image0
          Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm a former Christian, Feenix, and I still feel a great deal of affinity for Christianity, despite what you may think. However, I am dismayed at what I perceive as Christianity's great lost opportunity. Collectively, Christianity is the largest and the most powerful organization in the world, and it has such marvelous founding precepts. I am dismayed that Christianity uses its power too often as a bludgeon, too often to promote ignorance, and too often to maintain a stranglehold on that power. This isn't ALL Christians, obviously, nor all segments of the greater institution of Christianity.

          I even agree with you, politically, in many respects, which you would know if you hadn't taken such offense at my criticism of your vocabulary choices  that you cut off all dialogue with me. I disagree with your hyperbole, but I agree absolutely that liberals -- of which I am admittedly one -- have contributed largely to the plight of blacks in America.

          I still go to church, when I find a church that seems serious about advancing the social goals of Jesus. I respect Jesus the man enormously, whether or not I believe any of the supernatural claims about him.

          1. feenix profile image60
            feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I will be the first to admit that I am a hot head and that, quite often, I do a lot of "trash talking."

            Anyway, I am very grateful to you for taking the time to send me such a thoughtful and civil response. What you wrote really did prompt me to see the error in my ways.

            Chasuk, you are truly a gentleman and a scholar -- and I mean that from the very bottom of my heart.

            1. profile image0
              Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you, Feenix. That means a great deal.

              Take care. smile

              1. rdcast profile image60
                rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                -.-

          2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Chasuk, it sounds like you judge all Christians by Catholicism, would that be correct?  I am going based off of what you say about it there.

            1. Josak profile image60
              Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Catholics are the largest denomination of Christianity by far, judging by them is mathematically sound.

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                No, it is not.  Numbers don't make a belief system true or not.  How much a belief system adheres to its teachings, is how you judge it. It matters how it lines up with what Jesus taught.  Catholicism literally COUNTS on traditions of men, not the bible, as its core things to fall back on.  They are even proud of it often.

                Even atheists would agree with me, that numbers don't make a belief system true or not. 

                My bigger point in asking about that, was to point out that if you are judging Christianity by the faults of Catholicism, you will be getting a "result" but not a true result of what Christianity is, even though its the biggest and most powerful. 

                Think of the teachings of Jesus, he didn't like the religious leaders that put so much emphasis on the wrong things, and traditions, over other things.  It literally believes so much that isn't in the bible, its alarming. If you want a reason to reject God, one may need not look all that much further sometimes, than some churches.  Its why its good to judge by the right thing, if its truth one is after.  Judging by the words of Jesus.  What exactly is taught?

            2. profile image0
              Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Catholicism? No. What did I say which led you to that conclusion?

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Chasuk, You said,

                "Collectively, Christianity is the largest and the most powerful organization in the world, and it has such marvelous founding precepts. I am dismayed that Christianity uses its power too often as a bludgeon, too often to promote ignorance, and too often to maintain a stranglehold on that power. This isn't ALL Christians, obviously, nor all segments of the greater institution of Christianity."

                That was it in part, as it sounds like what I think of regarding Catholicism, over the Christianity that I believe in.  It was why I asked and didn't assume.  Thanks for answering.

                Many people judge Christianity by Catholicism, when you end up getting into discussions about it.  It turns out they don't disagree so much with what Jesus taught, as with what the RCC teaches, or Church history.

                1. profile image0
                  Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I do consider Catholicism as part of Christianity, so I did include Catholicism in the collective whole, but I don't judge Christianity by any of its constituent parts specifically.

                  [I don't use the word "denomination" because the Catholic Church doesn't consider itself a denomination.]

        5. PhoenixV profile image68
          PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          This reminds me of the atheist/anti-christian gang that are on Youtube. They will attack a Christians beliefs based purely on Old testament scripture. Specifically they will use "old testament prophecy" (which would be future events if at all" ) about potentially historical accounts of the Jewish people in the past. It could hardly be considered "philosophy" espoused by a christian.

          The point being is that a negative atmosphere and an environment is allowed if its directed at Christians.


          Why is that?

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That is an excellent question, and ought to be answered.  Its not ok.  I think its personal, and they find on HubPages, a reason to go after Christianity like Christians are almost not human. 

            This is based on my years of observation here.  It is why I don't ever really come to the forums, it is very demoralizing and immoral of an an environment, how they are allowed to talk and put down a whole group of people.  Then blame them for having a victim mentality, etc. 

            Not much explains this behavior, but something does explain it to me.  It is sufficient enough for me.  It just is good to point out, as it shows holes in other worldviews or ideas, that don't work out in the end.  I think a worldview stands or fails on different things.  If something is immoral, that goes out the window for me.

  13. Jerami profile image60
    Jeramiposted 12 years ago

    feenix wrote
      The way I see it, atheists should be just as critical of Jews as they are of Christians -- because after all, Christianity is what could be described as a subsidiary of Judaism. Or, it could be said that Judaism is the mother of Christianity.

    = - = - = -=

       You have a valid point with the entire post!  I'd like to tweek the last paragraph just a little.
       it could be said that Judaism is the mother of Catholism then Catholism became the mother of all Christian denominations.    AND ...  it could be said that Judaism is the mother of Islam. 
       it could be said that Christianity and Islam are step sisters.
    As different as night and day ..and yet the same.

       What the world sees is sibling rivalry in competition for daddy’s attention.  While the rest of Gods children, while being of the same houses, are bewildered.
      righteousness and unrighteousness are sitting in the same pews.
      Knowing that they sit in a house divided.

      What can we really do?  besides to learn tolerance!  Cause, ...none of us are as righteous as we might preceive ourselves to be!

    1. feenix profile image60
      feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jerami, I am very glad our paths crossed.

      And I give what you wrote a great-big AMEN.

  14. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    Here's a story that might help... and possibly might get me banned...

    My son was pursuing a girl who wanted nothing to do with him.  He said to me... "She won't date me because I'm black."  I said to him "No son. She won't date you because you are an ass."  He said "She won't date any of my other friends either because they are black."  I said "Wrong again son.  She won't date any of your other friends because they act like you and are also asses."

    There's a whole chicken and egg thing in there for anyone who might be looking for it...

    1. livelonger profile image76
      livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Don't know why you think that was ban-worthy! Thanks for the wisdom, Melissa; nice way to end the week. smile

  15. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years ago

    Thank God/Allah/Karma for natural selection.  Maybe the jerks will do themselves in and leave the rest of us alone.

  16. CriticalMessage profile image68
    CriticalMessageposted 12 years ago

    The issue is not any one religion as much as the issue being those who are fanatical about their religion.

    I mean even the Atheists have turned into hypocrites.
    With their web-sites and followers seeking donations to cover the expense of their printed propaganda and costs of their website management.

    I mean isn't that how most religions evolved ?
    Seeking funding through persuasion to believe that their belief is the only right way to believe.

    It has all become so very competitive.

    My religion is better than your religion and if you do not believe that ?
    Well then I must discredit you and your religion in retaliation.
    Maybe I will join the wars that are being waged quietly and deceptively against each other.

    I for one ?
    Simply believe in my right to believe as I wish to believe.
    Yes, a legal right.

    Fanatical religious zealots really hate the fact that we have rights to believe as we choose to believe.

    They prefer it all to be cookie cutter territories of belief.

    *rolls eyes*

    1. feenix profile image60
      feenixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Atheists do not realize it but atheism is a religion. Just as many Christians, for example, religiously worship God, many atheists religiously practice their disbelief in God.

      1. Jane Bovary profile image88
        Jane Bovaryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Maybe they go to Melissa's church

  17. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years ago

    feenix and Chasuk, that is perhaps the most civil and beautiful exchange I've ever seen in this forum between disagreeing parties.  It's a pleasure to have been able to exchange thoughts with the two of you, and I offer my respect to both of you for your willingness to meet and stand on a middle ground with such diplomacy.

    big_smile  Happy Saturday morning to all.

  18. profile image0
    prozemaposted 12 years ago

    Don't you find the premise for this question troublesome? The premise seems imply that that Christians (or what other people group you want to put in its place) are inherently bad and THE ones at fault for world problems.  The solution would be to pare them down or eliminate them. That scares me a bit.  The Nazis did that to the Jews.  Feed me a crust of bread in the concentration camp O.K.?  What was your goal in asking such a question?   Are we seriously going to start sorting out people groups to pin the worlds problems on?

    I don't know you well, but so far you seem to be an earnest man on a journey for truth, for real answers.   I differ from you in that I don't think the right ideology  will ever change anything.  I am totally disillusioned with the great thinkers.  The possibility of transformation comes with submission, humility and love. 

    One of my best friends runs a ministry caring for people living with AIDS, both in the US and South Africa.  She started this ministry after her husband died of AIDS.   She cared for him after he left her for his gay lover.  She loves people no matter where they've been or what they've done. She chronically poor and even battled Christians who pursue doctrine and ideas above love.   Yes, Jesus is her inspiration and her whole life.  People like her really change people.  I want to be transformed by pure love not pure thought.

    1. profile image0
      Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The question can be summarized as,"Would the world be a better place if we replaced a quantity of X with an equal quantity of Y," and nothing else should be inferred.

      T quote myself from an earlier post:

      1. profile image0
        prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        What's the philosophical debate your originally intended?   Was it to sort philosophies into  better and worse?   Wasn't it intended to evaluate their impact on humans suffering?   I don't understand the question.

        1. profile image0
          prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I am going to take a risk and be completely honest and vulnerable.  You have genuinely scared me to the point of wanting to report this thread as hate speech.   I am trying to choke back fear and give you the benefit of the doubt, to practice what I preach.  It is very difficult.  The fact that this point keeps popping up shows that this question leads to profiling and generalizations that when submission, humility and love are not applied horrors happen.   I need some serious reassuring here.

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You're either joking or acting out a need for histrionics. Reporting only draws focus on the person doing the reporting. If you over do it, it comes back to haunt you.

            Personally speaking, this has been a most insightful exercise. BTW, were you able to answer the question, or have you found yourself running around in circles, pulling on your hair, screaming, "OH MAH GAWD, THEY'RE COMING FOR ME"

            To explain it for you, the question is asking, what impact Christians are having today on this ever more secular world. It's worded as it is, to grab your attention, as it obviously has. So put on you big girl pants and suck it up.

            1. profile image0
              prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That was unkind.  This discussion is not useful.

              1. rdcast profile image60
                rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I sincerely apologize for being unkind.

                Well, I can't even delete it by this time, sorry...

                1. profile image0
                  prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You're right I'm not cut out for this kind of discussion.  I think I'll stay of forums.  It becomes so harsh and jeering so quickly.    I don't I think I've been misunderstood more often than understood.  I am not getting anywhere.   Real people are behind these statements.  I'm not sure forums make the world a better place.

                  1. profile image0
                    prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Oops I meant to say I've been misunderstood more than understood.   I really do keep thinking of that church that got shot up in Texas.

        2. profile image0
          Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hmm. Good question. Hard question.

          It is often maintained, by anti-religionists, that it is RELIGION that is the cause of much of the world's suffering, Christianity especially. I disagree. I feel that the cause of so much of the world's suffering is more primal than that. Religion, after all, is a construct, something that we have built-up upon baser impulses (and sometimes upon impulses more pure). What those impulses are was my intended philosophical question, but I apparently framed it poorly.

          1. PhoenixV profile image68
            PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with your own estimation of how it was framed. Too bad there is no remedy for that even in your admitted hindsight.

            As for the OP, The disciples once asked Jesus if a blind man was cursed and his blindness was caused by the sin of his father or ancestors, and Jesus taught them that that was not so. This would appear to me to be diametrically opposed to karma. I am a novice in regards to Buddhism so I apologize in advance. Further, I would contend that Christianity is more pragmatic and proactive in comparison to "what I think I know about Buddhism"- What I mean is schools, charities, colleges and hospitals give very real testimony to Christianity as an organized religion. I cant go to a Memorial Buddhist Hospital in my country, I cannot go to a college like Yale or Harvard that was founded by Buddhism, I cannot eat at a soup kitchen provided by Buddhists. I mean absolutely no offense by what I say, I am just speaking towards the pragmatic and proactive part of Christianity in comparison to Buddhism, based on what very little I know about it.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Fair points all....

              1. PhoenixV profile image68
                PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks for the bump, still waiting but its getting late here.

              2. PhoenixV profile image68
                PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks for the bump but its getting late.

          2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You didn't really frame it that poorly Chasuk... and I think you know better...  Someone was bound to be offended.  Those people would likely have responded differently if you just exchanged the order of "Buddhists" and "Christians".  But then our resident Buddhist would have had his panties in a bunch...

            Those who know you know that you didn't mean anything derogatory about it and were just wanting philosophical stimulation.  I know you are going to try and make peace because you are a good guy like that but if it stops you from posting anymore great threads then I'm going to be ripe royally pissed.  A group of those with thin skins should not be able to remove opportunities for stimulating conversation just because they feel threatened by conversations that might not say how perfect they are.

            /end rant

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Not everyone knows Chasuk the way you do, and there are new people coming to HubPages everyday.  Most won't know him.  Its not that people are looking to be offended, like you suggest.  I sense more of the same problems coming here, and sure enough.... 

              I think most that had a problem with it can be seen to be expressing in words, that they would have a problem with no matter what group it was directed toward, so that isn't a true statement about exchanging the words. 

              Its nice you give someone the complete benefit of the doubt, while not doing the same for all people.  You do more of the same by saying there is a group here with thin skins, that don't really want stimulating conversation (not true, I love that, and was going for that!).  You do more of the same that you say they feel threatened by conversations that might not say how perfect they are?  What? Sigh..

              Thanks to Chasuk for responding like this, even if it wasn't necessary.  It shows he cares as multiple people responded from multiple worldviews even.  That was something, thanks Chasuk.

      2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Perhaps it can be asked in that tone the next time.  That would be a very fair question, this other one is not. I didn't realize until after all this time, that you are a HubPages Elite either.

    2. recommend1 profile image61
      recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The question seems to be asking if the world would be a better place with fewer christians, I know plenty of inherently 'good' people who do good things (like your friend) and most of them are not christian.

      What we do is one thing, why we do it is another.  In my experience everybody does their thing to staisfy their own agenda, even Mother Theresa.  There is no such thing as selflessness, we do it to satisfy whatever we think we should do, wherever that comes from.

      The issue of christianity is the pretense of doing things for a higher cause, from nuns beating children for their own good, to priests refusing to baptise a baby becasue it is not in his personal religious club, to those who do 'higher' things like a wealthy colleague fo mine who paid for an abandoned child to have his crippled legs put straight, and now parades the kid like his ticket to heaven.  This is not to say that it was not a 'good' thing for the kid, but a slight acquaintance is doing this kind of work day and night and she is Buddhist.  And I guess she might be concerned with karma also ?

      1. profile image0
        prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I know that.  It was Christians on the chopping block today.

        1. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          you haven't kept up if you believe that.

          I like your green fly btw.

  19. Skeptical Theist profile image61
    Skeptical Theistposted 12 years ago

    The world would be a better place if there were more "little Christ's" who actually emulated the Real McCoy, following his actual recorded model.  More of us would make our abode with those existing on the fringes of society.  More of us would be doing double duty to REFRAIN FROM prosecuting our fellows... dragging our fellows into court in order to sue them for our own secret desire for selfish gain or retaliation/vengeance... condemning people... casting certain "tax collectors" and other notorious sinner/criminals out of our social heart of things... refusing to eat with the likes of "them."

    The world would certainly be a better place if we were to take our Messiah more seriously, and our own cherished reputations with something more of a grain of salt.

    Modern Christianity embarrasses me.  It is an affair of reputation.  you are either one of the fortunate "typicals," or else you are one of the unfortunate "marginals."

    This would have been abhorrent to the believers in Antioch who were first called by the name, Christian.

    Instead of going back to the grass roots of our actual Christ, whose name we assume when we call ourselves Christians, those looking on throw the diamond out with the useless pitchblende!

    What an explosion of pure, clean society we moderns might enjoy if just a few of our skeptics--who I actually very much respect--would throw the bullshit out and retain the brilliant pearl of great worth that is actually present in the man, Jesus Christ.

    Christ actually had the wisdom to admonish his genuine followers toward practicing more than mere mamm-bee-pamby, meek-n-mild niceties.  He admonished his genuine inquirers to be SHREWD AS VIPERS. 

    Answer me please:  how can one be shrewd without some form of necessary dishonesty...a gifted ability to know when to disclose certain things and when to hold back for better timing?  To be shrewd one must hold within one's character opposites, knowing when to be moderate and when to damned well be militant; knowing when to be idealistic and when to damned well be realistic?!

    This GOD is quite more manly than the man-made gods of our habitual inventing.

    Ho-Hum.  Am I alone, here?

    Skeptical Theist

  20. AM Hanson profile image70
    AM Hansonposted 12 years ago

    Doubtful.  Why would it be?  Many people have pointed out bias, persecution, and closed mindedness in this forum, and it works on both sides.  To think that the world would be better off with less of a certain group is a dangerous suggestion, I believe that someone from Germany had this idea and it didn't work out too well for him.  The only way this would be a valid suggestion would be if the group you were suggesting of removing solely consisted of people who only negatively influenced society.  I think the world may be a better place if Christians, as a whole, were more accepting.  There are too many hardcore conservative Christians who believe that what is in the Bible is the only way things can be, rather than seeing it as a guide to life, and completely ignore the New Testaments message of showing equal respect to everyone regardless of race, color, creed, or any other factors.

    1. AM Hanson profile image70
      AM Hansonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      typo: "they" not "and" in the last sentence

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        There will come the day when there are zero Christians here. How about that thought?

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          There will come a day when there are zero humans here. How about that thought? Eventually, all the fighting, the hatred, the absolute refusal to accept others as they are will be for nothing because the world will cease to exist - and largely because we will have worked so bloody hard to destroy it - all for the sake of being right.

          That is what should really have us scared.

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            This world was created for destruction my dear.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I very much doubt we have the ability to destroy the planet. We do, on the other hand, have the ability to destroy ourselves. Once we have achieved that–the planet can continue on, and whatever evolves from the ruin we make of it, will have dominion.

            Me? I'm going with the cockroaches.big_smile

            I wonder if they will develop religion…….

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I'm sure they will! And, the giant extraterrestrial cockroaches from Men In Black will be worshiped as gods...and the fighting will go on and on, ad infinitum, I suppose.

              Sigh.
              smile

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Sigh?

                The fighting probably will go on ad infinitum– that seems to be the nature of things. Competition, population explosions and reductions, massive waste of resources–even outside of humans. I mean–any predator will eat its food supply into the ground, and that's the only way predators limit their own population by overeating.

                This is the “natural order" of things. I don't see any other way. Which is why I find it strange, that people like yourself can find a god involved and creating it this way. The whole thing is so messy, violent and wasteful, that I don't see how I could possibly imagine a God dunnit.

                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I can do my best to explain.  I find it difficult to look at what goodness, beauty, order, and absolute wonder there actually is in the Universe to believe that it happened by chance. My feeling (and I totally understand that it's subjective based on many of my own experiences) is that it was perfect in the beginning, and humanity has been responsible for turning it into the mess we have to deal with now. I don't believe that it's God's fault - or entirely our own. My understanding of God says that we were created with free will and often make terrible choices, but as our Creator he allows those choices - not necessarily for our own good, as lots of people might say, but for our strengthening and growth.

                  If I felt there were flaws in humankind, I would lean toward arrogance above all else. We think we are above all the rest of creation and have the right somehow to subject it all to our whims, our desires, our needs, and, of course, our own belief structures. And, in many believers, that great flaw is magnified a thousand times because we claim to KNOW the mind of God...when in actuality, we're really just struggling to make OUR peace with Him, which is all we can do. My understanding and peace with God will always differ from another's, and it is only my absolute, ridiculous arrogance that allows me to believe that I am responsible to recruit others into the same understanding that I've come to.

                  Make sense?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    No. It makes no sense at all. Sorry. It is not perfect or imperfect - it just is. The fact that you feel responsible to try and persuade people to believe as you do is why your religion causes so many conflicts.

                    I see just as much badness, ugliness, disorder, and boring dross as I do goodness, beauty, order, and absolute wonder.

                    Odd you only see one side of it when you have just been lamenting the ongoing battles and conflict that inevitably come from the way the world works.

                    Of course - if one species has the power to change that - it is us. wink

        2. AM Hanson profile image70
          AM Hansonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          then I wont be here either so i wont have any desire to think about it

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, I'll say it again for those who refused to listen the first time. This earth was created to be removed at the end of this age, along with the Antichrists who will rule it.

            REV 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              All you are doing is convincing us that the world would be a better place if there were fewer Christians. wink

              1. rdcast profile image60
                rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Believe what you will and do what you can not to speak for the rest. The point is, This world will be handed over to the resident Antichrists, just before it's destroyed along with its blasphemers. Then, it is replaced with a new heaven and a new earth, both filled with 100% worshipers of God. If that doesn't float your boat, then sail on.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Drivel. This is why your religion causes so many wars.

                  1. rdcast profile image60
                    rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    You lack a voice God will respect. In fact, you spend your time building arguments on quicksand. Stick with this word you keep throwing about, "religion", just so you can avoid the real issues of individual spiritual responsibility. No individual, spirit filled believer in Jesus Christ, EVER started a war. So be a blowhard against organized "religion" and believe you're striking against God and His Son, Jesus Christ. But what you wont face up to is that repenting of sin, to be saved by Jesus Christ, isn't by conscience of crowds, but by understanding YOU are responsible for YOUR individual vanity and its impact on YOUR soul. YOU must find Him YOURSELF. No one can do it for YOU, or take over YOUR responsibility for YOUR vanity and ultimate decisions. It doesn't work that way Mark. It's YOUR responsibility. And if YOU ever do come to accept, not only that YOU'RE guilty of all sin as the rest of us are, and actually ask Jesus Christ to forgive YOU by His blood and suffering, feel free to start any war YOU feel compelled to start. See the point? I suppose not. Such is the blindness of those dying of vanity, something that no physical disease can compare with for its ruination. In the end, YOU wont be standing before God in the midst of a crowd. It will be just YOU!

                  2. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Hey Mark, I have lost count of how many times you have said "this is why your religions causes war".  I am going to venture to say that it is not the religions that cause wars (especially not just one specific religion) but the very attitude displayed in previous comments. This is the type of attitude that creates the "us" vs "them" mentality, and one of the fundamental steps before conflict. Your belief vs my belief. Do you see what I am getting at?

  21. GERALD-710 profile image59
    GERALD-710posted 12 years ago

    After reading all the christian bashing on this thread,I realise one thing,there is a lot of ignorance on religion here.
    I come from Africa and I can assure you,the most advanced places are christian e.g South Africa,Southern Nigeria,Kenya,Namibia
    If Christianity has had a violent history,Africa has none of it.In Nigeria,it is always the muslims bombing churches,how many mosques have been bombed by Christians?
    Like the US,Africa has its share of fundamentalists.Ugandan clergy were trying to pass a law making homosexualitxy punishable by death.
    We also have liberal christians.The likes of archbishop Desmond Tutu in S.A,Kenyans,Namibians and Ethopian christians are moderately liberal.
    And who said Buddhists are not violent?
    Genghis Khan,the one who destroyed the Chinese empire,vedic indian empire,islamic caliphate and sacked Baghdad and Russia was a BUDDHIST!
    The majority Vietnamese buddhists almost had a civil war with Roman catholics in Vietnam just after independence and the split.
    To this day the majority Buddhist Sinhalese of Sri Lanka are still trying to cleanse Ceylon of Hindu Tamils
    Not to mention Thais cleansing southern Thailand of Malays
    Burma(Myanmar)did exactly the same to Indians and Bangladeshis in their country in the 60s and 70s
    So much for peaceful buddhists!

    1. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Awesome world wide perspective. Do you happen to be a follower of Jesus Christ? Sentencing homosexuals to death is a difficult concept and would fly in the face of letting all sinners have a chance for redemption. The power to legally kill others is one only the strongest Christian democracies seem to be able to handle.

      1. Josak profile image60
        Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That's unfortunate because the bible says you should kill homosexuals, whats that are you re-interpreting the bible? Tut tut you are supposed to obey and it seems pretty clear to me what it's saying.

        "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13)

        1. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What it does say is "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't suggest society can't protect itself by military or court sentencing on behalf of civil obedience.

          Josak, the following scripture describes God's divinity and how the law as seen in Leviticus 20:13(Old Testament judgement) was replaced with love and grace by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who took all man's sins, for those who turn to Him with personal repentance.

          JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
          JN 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
          JN 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
          JN 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
          JN 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
          JN 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
          JN 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
          JN 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
          JN 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
          JN 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
          JN 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
          JN 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
          JN 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
          JN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
          JN 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
          JN 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
          JN 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
          JN 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

          What the bible says about same sex playfulness is:

          (two in Old Testament judgement)
          You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (NKJ, Leviticus 18:22)

          If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13)

          (three in New Testament salvation)
              What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you. (TNIV, Mark 7:20-23)

              Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NIV, 1st Corinthians 6:9-11)

              They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-- who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (NIV, Romans 1:25-27)

          There's more.

          1. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I am well aware that God does not condemn and indeed endorses the murder of homosexuals I just think that is sick and evil. But it goes beyond that, to create mankind and have some of them be gay through no choice of their own then condemn them for being as god made them is an act of sadism beyond reckoning if god exists that in itself proves that he is cruel beyond imagining. I grew up extremely faithful one of the major steps in my leaving the faith was one of my best friends killing himself because the church convinced him that being gay was evil and disgusting and he couldn't live with that. This thread is about whether the world would be better without Christianity I can tell you from personal experience that without it we would have a good gentle person amongst us that we don't because of it and that is not even the tip of the iceberg.

    2. Josak profile image60
      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      All so so wrong Rwandan massacre for example was strongly linked to the Catholic church not to mention the colonizing massacres of heathens throughout the continent. I am sure you are also aware of the persecution and massacre of "witches" by Christians throughout the African continent.

      Genghis Khan was not a Buddhist: Genghis Khan's religion is widely speculated to have been Shamanism or Tengriism, which was very likely among nomadic Mongol-Turkic tribes of Central Asia. The Secret History of Mongols chronicles that Genghis prayed to the Burhan Haldun mountain.

      But he was very tolerant religiously, and interested in learning philosophical and moral lessons from other religions. To do so, he consulted Buddhist monks, Muslims, Christian missionaries, and the Taoist monk Qiu Chuji.

      The person you are thinking of was Altan Khan the Tumet King who converted to Buddhism after conquering China and then... Promptly became non violent.

      Your comment was weirdly limited anyway, by confining your view to Africa, conveniently avoiding the Billions of deaths Christianity is responsible for elsewhere.

      1. calynbana profile image79
        calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That is just the point Josak, some "Christians" have done horrible things, and some "Muslims" have done horrible things and some "Buddhists" have done horrible things, some Atheists have done horrible things. The religions are not the cause, the attitude of superiority is the cause.

        1. Josak profile image60
          Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          To a point you are correct, but then you have a holy book that tells you should kill followers of other faiths, tells you should kill homosexuals, advocates murder at every turn then it's beyond naive to suggest that does not play a part in the believers of that faith going ahead and doing exactly that. Atheists do bad things, Buddhists do bad things absolutely but they do not follow a creed hat instructs them from a higher power to do evil things.

          1. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That is what you get when you read the Torah alone. And out of context. Have you read both Testaments?

            1. Josak profile image60
              Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose."
              Mathew 5:17

              Yeah that's the thing I have read both testaments repeatedly there was a time I knew much of the gospels by heart. As Jesus himself states none of the ancient law is defunct or replaced by him. The church still endorses homophobia, sexual repression etc. there is no excuse for this.

              1. rdcast profile image60
                rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                MT 5:17(KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

                Jesus Christ fulfills and yes, He replaces judgement against those who repent and accept Him as Lord and Savoir, with His love and grace. No wonder you never found Jesus. You've spent your time trying to debunk His principles.

                1. Josak profile image60
                  Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  On the contrary I was very faithful, Jesus says right there that the laws of the old testament still apply you can try to twist it as much as you want but it's right there.

                  1. rdcast profile image60
                    rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I posted Holy Scripture, reject it if you like.

                    Tell the world Josak, Were you born again? If you were, what happened with the gift of the Holy Spirit Christ gives all born again believers? It happens to be eternal. If you never received it, then you never became born again and your knowledge of spiritual matters as instructed by the Holy Spirit, is therefore baseless.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image77
                    Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes, of course the Mosaic Laws still apply. However, not every single one, for instance the dietary laws, Jesus Himself pronounced all foods clean.

                    I don't want to presume, so please forgive me if I do, but many of the former Christians who talk about being particularly devout do not mention their relationship with Jesus. They usually seem to have had a very good relationship with their church, though. Is this fairly accurate?

              2. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                This is true, it is still wrong to do the things stated in the OT, however he does add to them. He tells us not to judge other, it is not our job but His. We are to focus on spreading the Good News, that through Him these broken laws can be forgiven. He HAS fulfilled the Laws with HIs sacrifice. We are supposed to lead people to Him, not condemn them for wrongful behaviour, but give them the tools to recognize the error in their ways, and the know how to deal with these problems.

      2. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I repeat for you Josak:
        No individual, spirit filled believer in Jesus Christ, EVER started a war.  By pointing at large organizations with whatever label they choose, for having performed much evil is different than blaming born again saints for evil in the world. Again, the individual born again believer in Jesus Christ, does not condone the atrocities you wish to condemn God with.

        So go back to the drawing board, because you're woefully and willfully wrong.

      3. GERALD-710 profile image59
        GERALD-710posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Could you show me the proof you have that the Catholic church was involved in the Rwandan Genocide ??and who wre they trying to anhialate considering that Rwandans are 99% christian and the majority are catholics including the Tutsis.Or the catholic church had decided to anhialate itself in Central Africa.Please get your facts straight!!   The Rwandan Genocide was a tribal war between Hutus and Tutsis PERIOD.or would a war between blacks and whites over race be called a christian war too?                                                        The last war that Christianity ever waged in the name of Christ were the crusades.Which I believe wre perfectly justified as all the pope wanted to do was to regain former Christian lands that had been occupied by mohammeds lackeys and fanatics.The spanish inquisition was a classical case of christian discrimination against Jews(I do not consider the muslims coz they were invaders and perfectly justified to be kicked out of Spain.Unlike the jews who were actually more half jew half spanish by ancestry and jewish by religion).I do not know of any war whereby we christians went screaming "IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST,WE CLEANSE THIS LAND OF NATIVE AMERICANS/JEWS/EAST EUROPEANS(coz they are catholic)/AFRICANS AND SLAUGHTER THEM COMPLETELY!!!Now is there so stop saying that christianity is the cause of all wars.Unlike Mohammed,Jesus did not declare a jihad on non christians and neither did his followers.You sound like a bigoted ahteist that is suffering from an inferiority complex or something.           As for missionaries in Africa,I do not know of any missionary activity that lead to the colonisation of Africa.Yes,they came to spread the word.Do you know of any missionary wh owent to africa and started to grab the gold and diamonds?name him.In fact missionaries liberated Africa.They brought a religion that unified many warring tribes,ended slavery and educated the leaders that lead to African independence.Even in muslim nations like Senegal,the leaders were educated in christian missionary schools                                                          Someone keeps saying that christians are obligated to kill gays.Please read Galatians 3:22-26.WE ARE NOT BOUND TO THE OLD TESTAMENT!Remember the parable of the old and new wineskins of Jesus??jeez!I am not even a theologian yet I read and understand the Bible better than you!!!Yes,Paul condemned them,he did not prescribe an earthly punishment rather a hellish one so stop with the stoning nonsense.                                                                                                                   Yes,Ghenghis Khan consulted,christian,muslim and buddhist clergies but he was a mongolian .Mongolian nomads were mostly buddhist at the time He was born.and most likely was he                                                     Nobody has opposed the fact that even buddhists can be violent if what is happening in Sri lanka(and yae ,it is religiously motivated.They want to claense their country of Hindus),Burma in the 70s and Vietnam just after independence

  22. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago

    It also says, in the last books of the non-judaic text (christian) to forgive, and to judge not what someone else does...in fact, it says to MIND your OWN business. Truly, we can't justify Jesus' teaching with the actions of his modern day 'followers'. Most of whom aren't as "saved" as they think they are.

    1. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You're either talking about the born again believer, or you're not. There is no in between concerning this point. Of course, when such a believer backslides, he/she will either be lead by the Holy Spirit and/or rebuked by wise brethren. This is why we sin by not gathering together for support and prayer.

      The fall from grace of a brother or sister in Christ better be our business. Don't suggest that this isn't so. I do agree that we shouldn't be asking God about what happens to other particular sinners. I believe it was Apostle Peter, who was rebuked by Jesus Christ, for having asked about what would become of Judas. He was told it was none of his business and to worry about his own outcome.

  23. brittvan22 profile image76
    brittvan22posted 12 years ago

    Interesting summation, would like you to go into depth about this statement.

  24. ULinder profile image60
    ULinderposted 12 years ago

    Yes.  Religion has been another way for people to differentiate themselves to a degree that they can see "others" as enemies.  If Christianity died out and more people saw themselves on the same page as other human beings then the world could be a better place.  Also, Chick-Fil-A would finally be open on Sundays...

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ULinder, Everyone everywhere should be amazed that this question is even allowed on Hubpages. 

      What if the question read, "Would the world be a better place without atheists?"  Or

      "Would the world be a better place without Jews?"

      Incredibly immoral, and its amazing to me Hubpages allows discussions like these.   I totally disagree with what you say above, and think the complete opposite. 

      This isn't just for you, ULinder, but you and the original poster, and all who would entertain such a question about ANY people group or religion.

      1. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        no one is amazed oceansnsunsets(love the name) You're just waking up to the fact that God's faithful born again followers are finally being persecuted as prophesied for the end times.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I see it all the time actually.  The amazing part is that people would rather embrace very immoral ideas than face the facts.  Normally, freedom loving people would want freedom for all people. 

          I observe this country going down hill, I observe that more Christians die all the time than at any other time in history.  I observe that if Christianity is true, this world would look just exactly as it does, and that people would behave exactly as we are seeing. 

          My hope and prayer, is that those that care about what is really true, would see these things as a wake up call to check out the facts, and see how distorted things are becoming.  Opinions are everywhere, but not much explains what we are actually seeing that is so "odd" , except for one thing really.  That Jesus was absolutely right.  My questions are more for the fighting for a free world, and peace while I can, and to get those that think they disagree so much with Jesus, to see they are actually caught up in something that is not serving them well.  If something is immoral and takes away freedoms, it is at its base faulty.  When people start measuring things with completely incorrect measuring tools, (Judging a religion by its heretics, a favorite here and elsewhere), then that also shows an idea or philosophy is broken or faulty in its core.

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I want you as my prayer partner. I need prayer myself. Do try to find comfort in that this world must pass for the new one to come.

            God bless you

      2. ULinder profile image60
        ULinderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        How in the world is this "incredibly immoral"?  You do understand that the question isn't meant to ask if we think those people should die or not right?

        Or do you think that being without religion is immoral? 

        I do think the world would be better if there were no Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc.  I'm not saying to eliminate these people, I just think the differentiating factor of organized religion and what it does to people needs to be eliminated.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Its not specified in the question, but it does say, "fewer Christians."

          One need not go too far into distant history to see how ideas play out.  Its not an original thought or anything. 

          The suggestion at the very least as you say above, is to do away with the religion, which the different people "have" or have chosen.  How do you propose to do that without taking away freedoms?   That also is incredibly immoral as a suggestion.  How about you leave others, and let them live in freedom?  I think that is a great idea, and am surprised you or Hubpages is even allowing this conversation that suggests otherwise. 

          You have opinions, but notice, people aren't suggesting the same of you and what you believe.  The idea fails before it even got out of the gate on moral grounds for just that reason.  You already KNOW you wouldn't want others saying the same of you.

          1. ULinder profile image60
            ULinderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I can see I am talking to a far right brick wall.  I will no longer be talking to you as you are incapable of discussion higher than that of the monkeys you think we didn't evolve from.

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              This is a personal attack and an ad hom.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I ask some facts of you to back up what you say, or back up your position of siding with the original poster.  You then give ad homs, name calling....

              This is the sign that you aren't in possession of a worldview that is serving you well, as you play this predictable game of putting others down when asked fair questions.  If you were up for some truth regarding these matters, I suppose you wouldn't back down from them and stop talking.

              Everyone, when shown how they are wrong about something, has the chance to make decisions of what they will do.  You seem to not want to consider what I say as possibly true.  I will take this just how it looks.  But I hoped for more.  Its true, you wouldn't want me to start a thread saying the world might be a better place without people that think like you do.  You and I both know this is a fact.  That is, because its immoral, and its deeply intuitive.  So its where that "disconnect" is, that needs to be sought out by those willing to face truths and hard facts of matters. Who is up for that?

            3. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You also assumed a lot about me and what I think of science.  You said something there that you don't actually know to be true.

            4. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              guess you voted for Obama

        2. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          you would just like them to think more reasonable

      3. Josak profile image60
        Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        On the contrary everyone should be amazed that there is any debate on the matter, Christianity is still holding back science, still preventing medicine that would save lives, still denying same sex couples their fair rights, there is nothing wrong with speaking out against that, Christianity is an ideology not a race should it be banned for us to speak out against Nazism too? They are both ideologies and seriously flawed ones.

        1. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Josak, you never answered the question about having receive the Holy Spirit, now did you?

          I think you really should clear this up before you continue to claim some kind of spiritual knowledge. You're making yourself out to be a phony.

          Sorry, I just read your response:

          "Josakposted 12 minutes ago in reply to this
          Yeah I was, doesn't change a thing."


          That is sooooooo transparent. Saying "Yeah I was, doesn't change a thing."

          What you just confessed to is having been born again and having received the gift of the Holy Spirit., but now!!!!!!!! You are preaching that Jesus Christ is fake.

          I am NOT one to stand by and listen to Antichrist claim to have lost the Holy Spirit, tho it is eternal. BUSTED!!!

          1. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            AHHAH I don't even know how to respond to that lunacy, i was christian I am not anymore, it's a very simple concept. I realized the church was evil and the teachings were immoral, then I realized that all the things I was told we needed god to explain could be explained by reason and science. Then my best friend killed himself because he was convinced by the church that being gay was evil and that just solidified my realization, I have been an atheist since. More and more people are coming to the same conclusions the number of Christians  the Us falling about 1% per year.

            I am sure you think this is a sign that the end is nigh, of course Christians have been saying that for thousands of years and yet here we still are.

            1. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              you can't get out from under that FACT that born again believers receive the Holy Spirit. You said you did, you lied!

            2. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That would be an emotional response to religion that changed your heart Josak, not a critical look at Christ. There are "churches" which are evil, there are practices which I would say are evil. But the question you need to ask yourself remains, what is evil? Evil is anything that is against God. Do you have a different definition of evil?

              On a side note the number of Christians in the US is falling yes (I would also claim that the number of critical thinkers in the US is dropping, I am not saying there is a correlation just another thought) However the number of Christians in other countries is skyrocketing. Especially countries that try to destroy the concept of God, because these are the countries where people are critically examining the character of God. Americans don't do that. It is supposed to be a Christian nation, it is a place where people take God, the Bible, and freedom for granted. This is where you get shallow and traditional believers instead of Spirit filled believers.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Are you judging Christianity by Catholicism? 

          Or, where can you find in the NT, proof for what you say above, Josak?  You share some opinions, but others have those too.  If you are judging Christianity, you ought to judge what it actually is, and go after the right things.  That is my suggestion.   I am absolutely 100% right in saying this conversation shouldn't be allowed.  The test for that?  What do you believe?  Can we live in a better world if there are less "Josaks", (insert whatever you believe, atheism, humanism, whatever...) 

          Christians don't have the power to hold back science, and that sounds like a crazy statement to make.  Still preventing medicine....etc wow.  Do you know much history? 

          You ought to back up what you say with facts rather than sweeping generalizations if you want to be taken seriously, just as a friendly suggestion.  Do you have anything taught by Jesus, that backs any of your complaints above?  That is what a Christian is.  That is what I am.  You are siding with the idea of that less is better.  Yet I don't fall into your categories above.  Back it up, but you can't.  I already know those things aren't taught by Jesus.  I disagree with you also.

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Josak simply struggles against the Savior he claims was once his. He is just naive enough to believe born again believers can't see through his scheme. Satan doens't provide gifts, Jesus Christ does, and one of them is the discerning of spirits. Josak's spirit is as plain as the nose on his face.

          2. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I am quite comfortable with a discussion on whether the world would be a better place with more or less Josaks, I have strong political views and the discussion on whether the views I hold are better than the views that other people hold has defined this century, how else can we determine if they are good or bad if we don't discuss them?

            Yes I know my history very well, I know about the persecution of scientists throughout the dark ages I know that stem cell research is still being blocked and prevented in most places round the world by Christians who have decided that their beliefs take precedence over science that would save the lives of millions if not billions over time.

            As for what a christian is I define it as people who follow the bible and what is contained there in. But hey just look at what Christians are doing, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality and yet the Christian lobby does everything it can including spending enormous amounts of donated money to prevent gay marriage becoming possible.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You can't judge Christianity by some Christian lobbying group.  You would fall into error for example, as there are many Christians that don't even agree perhaps, and yet they are lumped in. 

              If you just look at what Christians are doing, I hope you see the tremendous amount of good they are doing, being selfless and truly helping the world to be a better place, because of what comes out of their Christianity.  It seems that in forums like these, only the negative behaviors, the  non Christ like ones get any attention.  That is very transparent, and very obviously using the "heretics for the ruler" of measuring Christianity's worth.

        3. calynbana profile image79
          calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Josak, could you clarify what you mean by fair?

      4. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I've explained the intent behind my question, and acknowledged that I framed it poorly.

        My apologies, to you, and to anyone else reading this who has been offended.

        1. PhoenixV profile image68
          PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          No need to apologize, the complaints were the overall atmosphere in general.

          1. profile image0
            prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            My whole hate speech thing was overstatement, a logical fallacy.     I let emotion get the best of me, and I apologize to you as well Chasuk. I really do respect you.    I felt that my contribution sent the whole thread in a direction I didn't like - a really crappy direction.   I apologize to everyone for that. 

            I had a slight personal connection with that church that was shot up down south a couple years ago.   The principal of my school knew the pastor.  I know some gruesome details of that moment through this connection.  I flipped out a little bit about the way this questions was phrased. It would have been helpful if I had added the context earlier.

            Let's disagree without being disagreeable.

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I can be disagreeable, on that I agree lol.

        2. recommend1 profile image61
          recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I don't see any reason for you to apologise for the way the question is framed.  The meaning is very clear and is not offensive.

          Don't give in to the pathetic creeps who scream about every attack while they are busy attacking anything that is not in their agenda.

          Giving space and attention to loonies who promote such ridiculous and hypocritical values is another matter, you make it seem as though there is something to discuss among their childish nonsense.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Hey Recommend... Since you are here my atheist panda...

            I've never argued with you before have I?

            1. recommend1 profile image61
              recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              only once

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Must have been because you were Christian...

                Sorry about that.

          2. PhoenixV profile image68
            PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Even an atheist was offended. Now more personal attacks? What an embarrassment.

            1. recommend1 profile image61
              recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              No personal attacks there,  calling ridiculous ideology ridiculous is not an attack, it is a duty.

              1. PhoenixV profile image68
                PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                So the atheist that agreed, he's a pathetic creep too? And His beliefs are ridiculous too?

                Wow, how embarrassing can this get?

          3. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Recommend, It was a poorly framed question, no doubt about that.   Several from all sides said so.  To those that are hypocritical and put others down, there isn't any point in discussing with them.  You are doing the very same thing here as Melissa however.  Speaking of hypocritical, without pointing out anything in particular.

            When I am gone from the forums for a long time, this is why.  People like this aren't about intellectual dialogue or debate.  Anyone can put people down, so they feel better or whatever their reasons are. It takes a strong person that cares about facts and others to really discuss intelligently.  Those are the kinds of people I wish to debate and discuss with.  Words like you used just above, "pathetic creeps who scream, loonies, childish nonsense"...who needs it.  That is So not helpful.

            Even when I remove myself from such behaviors, it is still happening on HubPages.  I know it.  That is a concern, to the degree we see.

    2. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ULinder, Sunday is NOT the Sabbath, so relax.
      Whoever you're talking about, it's not the born again individual. We happen to love you and do not create wars, nor do we make false statements like you just did.

      1. ULinder profile image60
        ULinderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Chick-Fil-A is a restaurant lol.  The owner is a devout Christian and believes delicious chicken should not be served on Sundays.

        My suggestion to the world is to get away from organized religion.  Keep it very personal and do not impose it onto others.  Most religions are as big they are today due to military force.  Jews, Muslims, and Christians have all spread their ideas with their swords and guns.  Can't we all just get along?

        1. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I love chicken.

          I agree totally that spirituality is a local matter, small and intimate. Perfectly suited for supporting the needy in the local are. The want for money causes it to be corrupted into something other that Christ's Church

          1. ULinder profile image60
            ULinderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It seems that corruption is very rampant within religion so would you say that the world effectively isn't ready for organized religion at this point?  Many people seem to use it as a vehicle for evil.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I say go after corrupt people, no matter who they are.  There are incredibly immoral people that have no religion also.  What does that get you?  I say, its a great idea to go after them all, the ones actually being corrupt.  Many people don't need religion to be incredibly evil also.  So that doesn't help us.

            2. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              No, I don't agree that the world should ever be ready for "organized religion". I't's contrary to Christ's instructions to give alms. This is an interesting point you might wish to remember. Why does organized religion NEVER teach the giving of alms? Because that's money that evades their offering plates. The concept of tithing is entirely Old Testament, to give a tenth to the synagog, the pharisees, priests and such. Jesus Christ replaces tithing with the giving of alms, where the right hand doesn't know what the left has done, This way, giving to the poor remains secret, but the Heavenly Father who sees in secret rewards the alms giver openly.

              Organized religion can't tolerate this teaching of Jesus Christ. It deprives them of revenue.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I think its a business owner's right to be open or closed whenever they want to be.  Do you not think the same? 

          I don't think its a true statement that the owner of Chick filet doesn't think delicious chicken shouldn't be served on Sundays.  Its a funny statement though.  It always amazes me that people are in essence, wanting less and less freedoms for others in a country even like America.  If they do not, then why say things like this about the owner of such a restaurant.  They are suggesting the opposite...  I think that is silly.

          1. rdcast profile image60
            rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The first day of the week starts on the first sighting of the new moon. Each month starts fresh on the next full moon. The seventh day after the full moon is the Sabbath. So neither Saturday nor Sunday can be the Sabbath.

        3. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Subtract the guns and swords and ask again, can't we all just get along?

          Are Judaism, Islam and Christianity all really just the same?

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No... they really aren't...  And they certainly aren't the same as Buddhism.

            The fact is there are certain things about any faith that the world would be better off without.  If the members of that faith are offended by that idea to the point of denying those issues then it's a pretty good indication that there is one more thing about their faith that the world would be better off without.

            1. livelonger profile image76
              livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I'd like to think we will eventually shed them. Every religion that survives evolves.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I think we will too... however it does delay the process to pretend those problems don't exist.

                *Smiles* That's why religion causes so many wars.

            2. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I think that could be applied to almost any worldview.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yes it could!  Thank you for acknowledging that!  I just needed one person to acknowledge it so that I could move on with my point.

                Now... with that acknowledgement comes the next two logical questions...This is where the really really cool stuff happens.

                1. What are those problems?
                2. How can we fix them? 

                If number one was answered truthfully and the answers were accepted and then number 2 was also answered truthfully and acted upon then 98 percent of the strife among...in this case... religious and or atheistic groups would be eliminated.

                However the fact that it took 41 pages for a Christian-other than me- to admit even by inclusion that Christianity has problems means that those questions are unlikely to ever be answered.

                And the reasons for not reaching the point where any useful conversation leading to a reduction in that strife include...

                1.  Perceiving criticism as an attack (oversensitivity)
                2.  Believing your faith is so absolutely perfect that it cannot be improved (zealotry)
                3.  Inability to question any points of your faith and the harm that may result from these points even at the expense of society in general (mindless sheep)

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  1. You listed the problems adequately.
                  2. The answer is education.

                  At the root of this religion are some fundamental issues that mean it will always be a divisive, war mongering religion.

                  The most basic tenet of Christianity is "do as I say, not as I do."

                  It always has been divisive. Even now - what are they fighting about? Wanting to prevent gays from being married, stopping women from choosing an abortion and making sure a religious zealot who thinks people can come back from the dead by majik gets voted into the Whitehouse.

                  Seriously - believing the nonsense in the bible is not the basis for rational, reasonable discourse. I have tried. It is very, very difficult to converse with some one like Chris who pulls BS "facts," out of thin air and ignores actual facts; or someone like agua who will simply ignore any reasonable point in favor of telling me I am an agent of Satan.

                  I mean - Chris thinks that lowering birth rates and limiting population growth is a sin because it prevents god from making more people in his image.

                  We need to stop indoctrinating our children into this delusion. There lies the real reason it continues.

                  1. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I actually agree with you on one point Mark. I think we need to stop indoctrinating children. Kids need to know about different belief systems and different cultures. They need to be educated about scientific theories as well as history. We then need to trust them to come to a rational conclusion in forming their worldview. I believe it was the indoctrination of kids that caused the wave of New Atheism (this is just my belief, I am not stating it as fact) you will notice that many atheists were raised Catholic or by fundamentalist Christians. All indoctrination does is close off the minds of developing children. It teaches them that critical thinking is not necessary. The problem is that there is the same fall back in only teaching kids about scientific theories and neglecting to teach them about different faiths. Science is not infallible and when kids are taught scientific theories they often take it as absolute fact.  This leaves them open to put their faith in anything that claims to be science falling victim to pseudoscience and popular science. Just as religious indoctrination this destroys a child's desire to think critically. A well rounded education that focuses on teaching kids to have divergent thinking and teaches them how to research and how to learn in general is best. The subjects they are taught should be a secondary concern. If you give the kids the tools, and make the resources available we can trust them to become critical thinkers as well as adults who seek the truth, and who are able to reject the ridiculous.

                2. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  The problem is, I've lost interest in our conversation. Once you made it clear that you had no interest in what I have to say, then it's like, "Okay, so we agree on something, but I don't remember what and I'm not interested in going back and finding out."

                  The only thing I'm sure of between us is  that you think I hear voices.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    When we see these points you mention, I have to agree that these kinds of people can't really be reasoned with too much.  You say,

                    "1.  Perceiving criticism as an attack (oversensitivity)
                    2.  Believing your faith is so absolutely perfect that it cannot be improved (zealotry)
                    3.  Inability to question any points of your faith and the harm that may result from these points even at the expense of society in general (mindless sheep)"

                    What I have seen in here very often, is not proving a criticism is valid and  and then accusing others of oversensitivity for not just taking the criticism anyway.

                    I have also seen some accuse others of thinking they are perfect, never wrong, or that they believe in the supreme, perfect view not having any issues to work out (or some version of that.)  I haven't seen anyone doing that either, though it was accused of me, but the opposite is true of how I actually think.  So more is going on there.

                    If there are true points of harm in one's faith, that don't basically equate to something like staying home and never doing anything because someone could die..., then I have seen people able to discuss those.  People haven't brought logical things in this regard.  If those accusations were true, we would have to halt life's activities, because bad things do happen to people trying to do good things, ALL THE TIME, every day even.  It shows an extreme need to go after one thing unfairly, and doesn't explain how the stopping of an action is any better.

                    Good points, for all of use to be careful of not being engaged in on any level.  (This is all assuming people value morality and truth, which isn't always the case, sadly.)

                  2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    *shrugs*

                    I've told you before that I don't have to believe that "God spoke to you" for you to believe it.  Stop trying to force me to believe your experiences...  If you believe that the big guy contacted you for something then have at it.  Stop asking "do you believe me now?" because the answer is going to be no.  Stop trying to find ways to convince me... because while I'm sure you are a really nice guy... I don't care to hear your life story. 

                    Your wife has cancer.  That sucks.  My father has cancer and I sympathize with you... but it doesn't make me think God spoke to you.

                    Your kids are special needs.  That sucks... big time... My daughter is also Autistic and my son passed away from his medical needs.  I have all the sympathy in the world for you... trust me... and if you ever want to talk about that then I will be here for you.

                    However... if you want me to stop thinking that you are hearing voices stop saying crap like "God spoke to me" because... as I pointed out... you are either being metaphorical which is completely fine but God has metaphorically talked to every Christian and therefore not a big deal... or you are hearing voices... which is a sign of a mental illness.

                    If it is the later then reading your story is just validating your delusion.  I don't do that.  If it is the former than like I said every Christian metaphorically "speaks to God" and I dislike those kind of stories intensely... which is not anything personal either... I don't buy the "Chicken Soup" book either.

    3. Chris Neal profile image77
      Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      On the other hand, if more people knew Jesus and saw themselves on  the same page that way, wouldn't the world be a better place then also?

  25. oceansnsunsets profile image83
    oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years ago

    People's problems are with the heretics of Christianity, OR the insisted upon distortions of what Christianity even is. 

    If you look closely, people that supposedly disagree with Christianity, would really agree with it IF they knew what Jesus really taught.  If they knew what the NT taught.  They instead paint it in a different light, so its easy to attack.

    This is creating hatred and true misunderstanding, while not going after the correct things.  It is absolutely true that if the world lived out the philosophy of Jesus, it would be a MUCH better place.  If you disagree, look into what Jesus taught.  Honest and moral people are willing to do this.  Forgiving, praying for enemies, doing good to others, are good things.  Jesus and the apostles died for what they knew to be true, and for these "ideas", and to those that have to use another measuring stick to want to do away with Christianity seem to me to be immoral.  What if it were any other group.

    Why does HubPages allow such discussions at all?

    1. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well, in their vanity it seems easy to attack it. But guess what? Jesus Christ wins, they lose! But you're absolutely RIGHT. PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY !!!!

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I know.  I actually care about people that buy into lies and think they are against something they side with.  Its like the deception is so strong.  It fails on so many levels, its not logical, its immoral.  They don't even understand why the question at its outset is immoral.

        How would anyone reason with a person that doesn't see what isn't incredibly wrong with it.  Its that very thing, that alarms me, and doesn't even help them at all.  Its an obviously wrong side to be on.  Its just going to get real bad before it gets better, but all because people bought into lies about others.  But no, it doesn't surprise me.  I hope the glaring clues in discussions like this help to wake up those that want to see.  That is all.

    2. Chris Neal profile image77
      Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But don't forget that Jesus rose again, and that is offensive to many people. And Jesus also taught that we should be living for Him, which many people find offensive.

  26. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    Would the world be better if their were less oversensitive zealots....

    And more people who understand that pointing out flaws in a philosophy isn't the same as persecution?

    -or-

    Would the world be better if there were less brainless sheep....

    And more people that acknowledge the flaws in the belief system that they have chosen?

    1. Josak profile image60
      Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      All of the above.

    2. PhoenixV profile image68
      PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      less oversensitive zealots....brainless sheep


      If you are talking about "human beings" here when you call them zealots and sheep, I think the world would be infinitely better without people "suggesting we get rid of other human beings".

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Oh.  Drama.  Do stop...hyperbole gives me indigestion.

        Most logical "humans" would have read the question as "Would it be better if more people converted to Buddhism"

        However you seemed to have read it:  "Would it be better if we killed enough Christians to make their numbers closer to the number of Buddhists?"

        Persecution complex much?

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Melissa, you and others here are turning this around, and perhaps expect others to ignore the original question.  Read it again.  The suggestion is there.

          What do you believe?  Are you an atheist, a Hindu?  Can we insert that there?  Lets be fair now, and please try to not show your hand by having to put others down over and over and over.  That is in essence showing you have to resort to that kind of behavior, as if you don't have good enough points to stand on their own.   Perhaps you do have good points, lets see those instead of ad hom attacks as a tactic.

        2. PhoenixV profile image68
          PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You came here calling people zealots and brainless sheep.

          Would the world be a better place if there were fewer Christians? Is not "pointing out flaws in a philosophy" it's a much more provocative question.

          Most logical people would not be calling people zealots and brainless sheep and expect to get away with it. You brought the drama, ad homs and persecution complex.

          If in the question the word Christian was replaced with Jew, Homosexual or Race, it would be censored. But it is okay if its Christian? No it is not.


          Thats the problem. An atmosphere of "its okay" if this sort of stuff is directed at Christians.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jew can refer to both a nationality and a religion. I would be fine if the quesiton only address the religion aspect because then it is a choice.  Race and sexuality are not choices.  Religion is an idea... therefore it is wide open to debate.  Sexuality and Race are not.

            So it's more along the lines of someone asking "Would the world be a better place if there were more liberals and less conservatives?"  I would not assume that meant they wanted to kill conservatives.

            1. PhoenixV profile image68
              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              The OP is not "Christianity" its Christians. Christians are human beings that made a "choice".

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                See above example...

                If the OP said "Would the world be better if there were more liberals and less conservatives?" Would you think that was hate speech?

                1. profile image0
                  prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Yep.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Wow.  OK then.  I refer back to my original zealot/sheep comment then.

                2. PhoenixV profile image68
                  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Would the question be likened to Would Arizona be a better place if there were fewer democrats?

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Nope... I filled it in exactly one group in place of another.

            2. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              HAHAHAHA!!!

      2. recommend1 profile image61
        recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        MelissaBarrett wrote:

            Would the world be better if their were less oversensitive zealots....

            And more people who understand that pointing out flaws in a philosophy isn't the same as persecution?

            -or-

            Would the world be better if there were less brainless sheep....

            And more people that acknowledge the flaws in the belief system that they have chosen?

        The zealots and the sheep have been deciamting the worlds populations for a couple fo thousand years now, they ARE the source of most of the trouble.

    3. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What people group are you putting down in your post there, Melissa?  I don't want to assume that it is Christians, but it might be fair since the original post is about Christians. 

      Can you point out how people have done what yous say as you put them down, so they can respond?   If you put out a statement like that, you look like you are playing it safe, throwing little bombs while hiding, so no one can respond lol. 

      In all seriousness though, if I have a worldview that is flawed, I would be more than happy to acknowledge it, and be shown how.  I take worldviews very seriously, and think everyone has one.  Its a bad question at its outset.  You can test this, as what do you think if we said, "would the world be a better place with less of those that believe or think like Melissa?"  We both know the answer to that.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        LMAO...  Not an atheist... sorry.  I believe in Christ.  I'm sure that screws your argument.

        I addressed my comments to oversensitive zealots and brainless sheep.  I thought I made that clear.

        So yeah if you want to insert my belief system in place of "Christians".... oh crap... it's already there. 

        Your argument is invalid.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Why LYAO, when someone poses a question?  No, it doesn't screw my argument, my argument stands on its own merits, can you address particular points if you disagree?

          This is why it would have been very helpful then, to just say outright who you were referring to when you went after a group of people.  Can you share now, who you were talking about?  No, you weren't clear at all actually.

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I was talking about oversensitive zealots.  Those would be the people who don't realize that their religion is a CHOICE and therefore they have no inherent right to not have that CHOICE criticized.  They would also be the brainless sheep who can't admit to the flaws in their CHOSEN philosophy... and can't admit that there might be some improvement to the world if they CHOSE a different philosophy that was... oh say... less historically violent.

            I was also talking to those who... without ANY comprehension of the OP's personality whatsoever... would accuse one of the fairest and most philosophical posters on this board -a man who btw is also one of the most pacifistic posters- of trying to incite some sort of Christian Holocaust by asking if the world would be better if more people thought a different way.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Why not address a person in particular then.  We still aren't any closer to who you are even talking about. So it still just appears you are putting people down for no reason, yet making out some supposed grand reason for doing so.

              If you do indeed get on these boards much, and if you keep up with news that is shown and not so public, you would know there are indeed a great many people indeed wanting to kill and are killing Christians.  Many more than you likely know, based on your posts, are killed every year.  You like to liken it to being a liberal or conservative.  If you frequent these boards, its totally different. 

              Who for instance on this board, doesn't realize their religion is a choice?  What are you talking about there?

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                It's exactly the same as being a conservative or liberal.  It's a choice in philosopy.   You weren't born a Christian.

                AND ONCE AGAIN I AM TALKING TO ANYONE WHO IS ACCUSING THE OP OF ANYTHING RESEMBLING HATE SPEECH.

                Is that clear enough?  If not I can't help you.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I see you don't want to address particular people, and perhaps are backing off your ad hom attacks of others.  Its so easy to put others down without having to say why, or who it was directed at. 

                  You, a believer in Christ, (are you a Christian, or just a believer that he existed?), are defending the OP, in the idea that less Christains in the world is a good thing, based on everything else I have read from you, correct?

                  My suggestion, be brave enough if you can dish stuff out, to say it to someone in particular, and give reasons for doing so.  You haven't done that.  You minimize it down to that it is just like being a liberal or conservative.  Those ideas are changing every day.  Liberalism has changed dramatically in the last few decades for instance.  Many have left it because it has changed so much.  Conservativism has gone very very left in the last few years, while being accused of going further right.  That is a totally different animal. 

                  I only agree that people choose them still like they choose what to believe.  That doesn't apply in this conversation or back up your main points you came in with.

                2. profile image0
                  prozemaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Melissa, I do agree with you that the accusation was unfounded.   I gave some context for my emotional response above.   My fear came out of my own experience; I am not afraid Chasuk personally or his ideas. In fact, I appealed to him for reassurance because he seems to be the kind of man who would do that for me without criticizing me.  And he is.    I apologize.  My second forum.  The order of things gets jumbled.  If I had read what he said earlier, I would not have misunderstood.   If I participate again, I will strive to be more careful.  My mistake was partly one of inexperience.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I saw no one refer to the original poster as trying to incite a Christian holocaust.  That is a bit dramatic, and its very ironic coming from a person that is calling others dramatic as one of the nicer things lol.  I saw no one mention a Christian holocaust. 

              If you study history, all things started as an idea.  I am paying attention to all kinds of things, not just paying attention to what is on hubpages.  The question, echoes MANY other things that have been said and keep on being said. 

              As I asked another poster, how exactly would you or the original poster go about helping there to be less Christians in the world? Why would you want to?  Do you even know what Christ teaches, the one you say you believe in?  Why do you support, as a believer of Christ, such a question?  You are very confusing and unclear, and yet toss out lots of ad homs.

              1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                As I asked another poster, how exactly would you or the original poster go about helping there to be less Christians in the world?

                Conversion.  What do you think he meant?

                Why would you want to? 

                *Shrugs*  Buddhism is a more pacifistic religion. 


                Do you even know what Christ teaches, the one you say you believe in?

                Yep.  Wanna quiz me?

                Why do you support, as a believer of Christ, such a question? 

                Because I believe open debate and exchange of new ideas is a GOOD thing.  I also think that such debate brings problems within the faith to the front in comparision.

                You are very confusing and unclear, and yet toss out lots of ad homs. 

                Sometimes the problem with confusion lays in the lap of the listener rather than the speaker...  And they aren't ad hominems as I really am insulting the thought process rather than the person thinking it.  I am insulting thinking like a sheep and being overzealous... If you feel you fall into the category I'm sorry.  Please use the correct terminology if you are going to use it repeatedly.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You haven't given enough information to back up anything you have said, so we can determine it or not.  You allude to it being my problem for not knowing who and what you meant, then assume I meant it is directed at me? 

                  More of the same.  I simply keep asking you to back up what you say, and be clear to who its directed.  You haven't done that.  Then say I am the one not using correct terminology.  Interesting.  I love a good debate, and believe in discussing all things.

                  1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Seriously... I typed it in big letters?

                  2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    An ad hominem: short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.

                    Once again... I am not pointing to a specific person just a thought process. What exactly aren't you understanding?  I typed it out in big bold letters... I've said it quite a few times.

                  3. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Then why come into the page and say it if its to no one in particular, and just a thought process?  That seems kind of odd.  It has nothing to do with you saying it over and over, and in big letters.   You are just saying the same thing quite a few times. 

                    In short, you did what you accused others of.  You do see that at least.  Another poster pointed it out quite well.  Its not that I don't understand, like you keep insisting.  Its a simple request from me that you go speak to particular points or people, which is what most do in these forums that i have seen.  A few of you are coming in and playing it safe..... That is fine.  I find addressing particular points and people more fruitful and offensive.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  If you look at the lives of Jesus and the apostles, they not only were pacifistic, they were persecuted, imprisoned then died for what they knew to be true. 

                  As for pacifistic, it doesn't get more pacifistic than that.  Buddhism, compared say to some of Catholicisms history, is more pacifistic.  That doesn't define Christianity though, how some Catholics killed for their religion.  That isn't taught nor condoned by what Jesus taught, and they in fact have changed their teachings to reflect it. 

                  I think some people like to define Christianity by things like the crusades, for instance.  That is just cheating, and Jesus himself would be first to say so I think lol.

                  1. profile image0
                    Sooner28posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Based on certain portions in the Bible you are correct.  It's odd that the people who yell the loudest about being "Christ followers" are usually the ones beating the drums of war.

                    Pacifism leaves out the OT though :p.

                  2. Josak profile image60
                    Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    The apostle were not pacifists, they carried swords, all of them, indeed Peter cut off the ear of a man during the arrest of Jesus, you would never have found Buddha or one of his followers carrying a weapon.

    4. livelonger profile image76
      livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, yes, yes, and yes... IMHO.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That post however, turned out to be full of hot air, not applying to anyone in particular here, nor to particular points in this thread, which some thought odd.  (Found out after repeated requests for who she was referring to here if anyone, or to which particular points.)  It turned out to be just be ad homs, if you want to read all the responses to her.  (Directed evidently to no one in particular, also odd.....)  Easy way out really, while getting in some insults, is how it looked.  If there were factual reasons for putting in such a post, I am still open to look at any facts, logic or reason backing it up.

      2. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You know, you and Melissa really have to stop being so reasonable. The ability to discuss rationally and disagree without resorting to oversensitivity and childish name calling is really quite an annoying quality. It's no wonder the two of you are so unpopular in the forums. tongue

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          *smiles* We don't have to be popular... we're FABULOUS.  And I love his little gay Jewish ass enough for everyone.

          Oh my... was that an ad hom?

          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            OMG! You called him gay and Jewish! You Anti-Semitic homophobe!

            lol

            (And I do agree that y'all are pretty fabulous).

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Yep and I'm anti-christian and anti-woman too...  I suffer from horribly low self esteem and the desire to bomb my own house after I order myself into the kitchen to cook for me.

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                lol Woman, you ain't right.

                I like that.

  27. libby1970 profile image70
    libby1970posted 12 years ago

    There are no "groups" better or less dramatic as the other groups! The Muslems push for their beliefs to be the top dog, and will even kill to go to heaven in their belief-Athiest put down muslems and christians! Christians put down Muslems and Athiests! It's a never-ending game of cat and mouse! The problem is nobody wins! It's a back and forth game where the winner can never take all!

    Nobody wins!

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Libby, but people can be fair to all, and have totally different worldviews, and live in peace if they choose to.  The best countries in this world and in history protected freedoms for all.  That is part of my worldview, and hope it would be more of others as well. 

      Wanting peace and freedom for all, is the best worldview to have.  If one's worldview doesn't allow for it then it is problematic, and should be pointed out.   I mean it doesn't have to be, but if its lived out and put into law, then people are hurt, and lose freedoms.  That kind of discussion is a very fruitful one. 

      This particular thread goes after Christians in particular, and its the most commonly attacked religion on Hubpages. Why it is so allowed is beyond me.

      1. libby1970 profile image70
        libby1970posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I agree! There are those who can be fair and have different views! However, lets be realistic, there are those individuals who make it tough, in all groups, because they go around putting others down who do not believe the same as them! Anyone has the right to believe whatever they chose!

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Libby, what you say is part of my point.  I don't like that others put anyone down, and think that good ideas stand on their own.

          Good philosophies stand on their own.  I try to go after points rather than people for just this reason.  I agree that anyone has the right to believe whatever they choose.  This OP doesn't side with us though.  It is suggesting the world would be a better place with less Christians.  While I disagree because I know what Jesus taught, I would disagree no matter what worldview or religion the OP was talking about.

          1. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            The world would be a better place with fewer Nazis agree or disagree?

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              How I took the post, as did others, no I don't think the world would be a better place for taking the life of nazis or anyone for what they believed.  I think if a Nazi murdered from their ideology then they should face a court of law and pay the price the society has deemed fit.

              Hopefully though, you aren't comparing Christianity to Naziism though?  Its very clearly an opposite kind of worldview, if you know what Jesus taught.

              1. Josak profile image60
                Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                The post does not imply killing them it's a hypothetical would the world be better if there were fewer, very simple.

                How that can be done is another matter, the best method thus far is actually just education in science and freedom from poverty, in places where those things are happening christian numbers are plummeting.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  The post isn't clear, one way or another. 

                  Those that like the OP, tend to say,  "it doesn't mean a Christian holocaust" even though no one suggested that. 

                  Those that know history, current events, and the general tone and what is allowed on Hubpages, can see it a totally different way.  I can accept that people are seeing it different, though at first blush, I don't see how.  I do now however, after discussing it more with people here.

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I didn't just take the OP to be that way either, by the way, but perhaps they are suggesting outlawing Christianity?  How do you "make less Christians" in the world, to make it a better place, is a question for Chasuk that needs to be asked. 

              At this point, I would expect a backing off of the more extreme take that could be taken and that he might say something like, by showing them how wrong they are, or some version of that?  Again, this is why particulars matter, and why I ask people to specify things.

          2. libby1970 profile image70
            libby1970posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I totaly agree. There's no excuse for putting down others. It's best to have a good discussion about the points rather than name calling and bashing each other! Nobody wins like that! It's just a back and forth childish game. There's no excuse for the OP comments! I totally agree!

    2. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      libby1970, let's revise your statement please. Born again believers, filled with the Holy Spirit DO NOT put down anyone other than Antichrists.

      1. libby1970 profile image70
        libby1970posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Let me say this... I am not putting down Christians! I am not putting anyone down! I'm just saying "all groups" have those individuals in them that are the worse offenders! It's the individuals who make their entire group look bad!

        1. rdcast profile image60
          rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          And I absolutely agree with what you said, until you get to the end. Born again believers in Jesus Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit are not part of any such groups to have to worry about. See, the unruly aren't allowed. They are welcome to do with themselves as they will, but it's the born again believer who will be ushered into God's Kingdom, forgiven and strong in faith.

          1. libby1970 profile image70
            libby1970posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I don't disagree! I'm just trying to give a view! If "Tom" is a christian and he is bashing athiest or muslems then "Tom" makes his group look bad! If "Joe" is a Muslem and he is bashing Christians then "Joe' is making his group look bad! It's about respect! You don't have to agree with someone to respect their rights!

            1. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              This is all very true. "Tom", if a member of a born again group and shows behavior that brought disrepute on Jesus Christ, "Tom's" born again brothers and sisters would rebuke him. Being that "Tom" has the Holy Spirit, but has strayed, he would eagerly listen to the spiritual truths presented by his brother's and sister's In Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. That is the benefit of having the Holy Spirit. If it weren't so, he would never have been in with a group of born again believers, who have the gift to discern spirits in all of us.

              The other groups you are concerned with, have no such benefit and are subject to your scenario.

  28. recommend1 profile image61
    recommend1posted 12 years ago

    Oh my !!

    A mass sheeple attack !   I guess heaven is full of dimwits LOL

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's okay Recommend... I am wearing my armor of faith.  I got this smile

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You haven't given much more than ad homs so far.... nor have really answered questions.  Armor of faith?  So you are a Christian then?

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I am a follower of Christ.  I am a Unitarian.  Seriously... have you read any of the thread but the op and your responses? And once again... if you are going to use the same phrase over and over please use it correctly.

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I do read threads and more but generally find there are so many haters of theists allowed on these boards that it isn't a fruitful place to seriously discuss things.  I generally find more of what I am finding with you.  I don't know the original poster, but I am going on his words alone, and yours.   That is very fair, Melissa. 

            Please tell me which phrase you are taking issue with me using over and over?  You did come in with drama and ad homs.  Is that hard for you to accept?  You did that, not me.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
              MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              It's the phrase Ad Hom... you are using it incorrectly... In every post.  Besides the question about who I am directing my "ad hom" insults... who doesn't exist since I'm not directing insults towards a specific person but rather a thought process...and since I've answered that question quite a few times... what other questions would you like to ask me that you will ignore the answers to?

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
                oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Here are just some of your ad homs, that you are saying are not ad homs. I am not sure I can believe that you are suggesting you haven't used ad homs in this thread.  Here are a few quick ones I found, copy and pasted, so you stop saying that I am using the word incorrectly.  You can't switch gears by the way, and say its directed at thought processes.  Its people that have the thought processes, they don't exist on their own lol.

                MelissaBarrett says:

                "I addressed my comments to oversensitive zealots and brainless sheep."

                "Take our sister (?) in faith rdcast here.  She obviously believes in Christ and reads the bible...  That at least marginally makes her Christian.  She is also just as obviously slightly unhinged.  If she does something stupid when the world fails to end on her schedule is it at least marginally our responsibility? "

                "less oversensitive zealots....brainless sheep"

                "persecution complex much?"

                Melissa, when you use phrases and name calling like this, instead of making valid points, people can ask you stop the ad homs and address the points instead.  I didn't have to go get those quotes, and there are more, but I seem to need to remind you of what you recently said that you say I am not understanding.  Hopefully, you will stop repeating this over and over now. 

                I don't make stuff up.  Even if I liked to cheat in debate or discussing things, lol, how would it benefit me to say you were using ad homs if you weren't, when everyone can see it all right in the thread anyway?  That suggestion doesn't make sense.

    2. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Recommend, why do you put people down, and resort to ad hom attacks of others?  Are you as bold to say exactly what you disagree with and why?  Or you like to sling little dirt clods at others from a safe distance?

      For instance, who is being dimwitted, and how? 

      What exactly do you take issue with?

      1. recommend1 profile image61
        recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I guess my comment was on the basis of 'if the cap fits'.

        I see a whole gang of people ignoring the facts of history, ignoring the teachings of their proclaimed saviour, changing their holy book to try and make it say what they want it to say, and blandly burbling on when clearly in the wrong. 

        Would the world be better off without christians, first we would have to find a real christian to know the answer to this.  Is it the current Pope who is openly creating division and following his Hitler Youth beginnings, or is it the born again who appear to have been reborn without a functioning brain, or maybe it is the dribbling nasty baptist freaks, that I encounter, who try to spread their infection to simple people around the world.

        I don't think anyone is pointing at everyday christians who actually follow the words of their christ figure, but then, they are few and far between.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          There are all kinds of people claiming to be a follower of Christ I guess.  If they exhibit any of the things you mentioned, just on a human kindness level it would be good to point it out. 

          I don't agree with the current Pope or anything Catholic at all, to be honest.  I don't like people that distort the teachings of Jesus.  Jesus didn't either. 

          My goal is to talk rationally, and reasonably with people, and that can't be done with ad homs flying about, and which isn't fruitful.  I also like the idea of encouraging others to stick to facts, and go after things that are actually fair to go after.  People too often, attack an insisted upon but incorrect version of Christianity and think that works.  Its a cheating game if you do that.  Or, they attack Christianity based upon the actions of its heretics. (people that act opposite of Christianity, what Jesus taught, yet claim Christianity.)  That is also faulty for one could do that all day long and miss the core teachings of Christianity.  Its not easy to be a Christian, but if people are going to put them down, I would hope it would be for legitimate reasons.  Suggesting the world would be a better place with less of them, knowing our history and current events, is an alarming thing to say, period.

          1. libby1970 profile image70
            libby1970posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree 100%! You can't discuss anything rational with nonsense floating about. It takes people with respect and a willingness to discuss facts and opinions without putting other's views down!

            I also know the teachings of Jesus, and he would shake his head to some of those who claim to be his followers! Remember the phrase "depart from me ye workers of Iniquity for I never knew you"... hmmm but they were christians!

    3. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      lol recommend1

  29. Andrew Cockill profile image60
    Andrew Cockillposted 12 years ago

    it would be better if there were no religion.

    1. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      How do you imagine this better world?

      1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
        Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        bump

    2. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Andrew, no one can escape spirituality which has little to do with religion. You might deny having a spirit all you want, but that wont allow you to escape it.

      1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
        Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        What is the spirit, I believe it to be the force of the sun giving us what we class as a good feeling. the closer you are the better you fell, its beams out life. Its just the negative charge in our bodies attracting to the suns positive life. We cannot go faster than it as it is that that creates it.

  30. Andrew Cockill profile image60
    Andrew Cockillposted 12 years ago

    Everyone accepts that there are no gods, just nature and what happens happens because of a series of chain reactions, whether it be out into space or under our finger nails.

    1. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So would this be something taught to each child? Or would children be taught to critically analyze the world around them and reach this conclusion on their own?

      1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
        Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        given that we are born into bondage a child in the circumstances as we know would be an unfair test to simulate.

        If the child was not corrupted by external influence other than what nature dictates then the child would know of no religion and will be at peace. Nor will the child be corrupted by 'mankind'.

        1. calynbana profile image79
          calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Interesting, so in this better world where would the children learn their morals?

          1. Josak profile image60
            Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Morals are universal and common sense, the same morals existed all over the world before the Christian faith reached it, most of what the bible teaches is good but most of it is also common sense, do not kill, do not steal, be loyal to your wife or husband these things are all good and cultures everywhere figured them out, unfortunately the bible comes with a lot of stuff that is very bad. My kids were raised atheist and they are morally the best people I know. There are countries like Australia for example where 50% or more of the population is atheist and they are no better or worse than Christian nations morally, indeed the crime rate and such is lower.

            1. rdcast profile image60
              rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              How do you shake off the Holy Spirit Josak. I ask, because you claimed to have possessed it. Doesn't that seem a bit discrediting?

              1. Josak profile image60
                Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                It's not real and once you realize that there is nothing to shake off.

                1. rdcast profile image60
                  rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  So now you're saying you never had the Holy Spirit, yet you claimed to have been born again. Something isn't square her Josak.

                  The fact is, you never were born again as you said and is the reason you never received to Holy Spirit as Jesus' promised gift to all born again believers. Indeed, you now say that the Holy Spirit isn't real. Why are you lying to make some unworthy point?

                  1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
                    Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Im sorry but using charactors from the past doesn't add to a constructive view point on. The bible was created by man, if god intended us to know 'the' or 'a' particular bible he would design humans with it built into them, not for them to write out their version of accounts in paper format.

            2. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Don't kill I think you mean do not murder. Universal morals? Can you explain to me what morals are universal?

              Do not kill is not universal, death penalty. Do not steal is not a universal moral, nor is it common sense. You have raised kids so you must know that. That is something enforced upon kids. Be loyal to your spouse, no longer common sense or universal. If we look at the natural world males tend to spread their seed not settle into monogamous life styles. Also look at the USA, is the inclination toward self satisfaction or other satisfaction? I can say with 100% certainty that it is the first one in Canada. A marriage relationship must be about the second one.

              Basically I am asking you to explain your thoughts.

              1. Josak profile image60
                Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                The same basic moralities developed all around the world, from South America to China they are the workings of logic, we do not kill without good reason because it is in our DNA to protect our species, we do not steal from each other because that causes hardship on others and prevents any trust, we take a mate or a wife and we stay loyal to her (or them in cases where multiple wives were allowed) because that is our evolutionary behavior, the marriage is specifically created to raise and safeguard children and each other, several animals do it too, take Albatross for example who also mate for life.

                There is no need for god in morality, all religion does is add the threat of punishment for breaking that moral code but I think that humanity is strong enough not to need the fear of hell to do the right thing this is proved by the fact that there is no significant difference between crime rates amongst the faithful and non faithful.

                1. calynbana profile image79
                  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I wonder how you determine if a person is faithful...

          2. Andrew Cockill profile image60
            Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            We would be like animals, living at one with nature. As soon as we became 'aware' we began developing habbits, trates, behaviors that were completely different than most from the animal kingdom as we know it.

            We began to settle and waved the finger at mother nature! As soon as we did this we were setting our selves up to fail.

            why?

            Large ammounts of slavery was required to create giant water dependant structures. Man needs a reason to control another man and invents religion, uses the weather as a sign from gods and 'pow' there you have it.

            fear rules all who dont respect mother nature.

            1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
              Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I have had a strong christian childhood and recently attended an alpha course looking for answers. I completed the course and met some very nice people.

              I know there is no god or superior alien race. Every plannet is goverened by its minerals and would follow every path we have to get were we are now, they would have to, its progression of evolution. They would wipe them selves out before they became intelligent enough to build space crafts capable of traveling "light speeds".

              To over use a plannets minerals is to rape it. This would dictate a viris like behavior thus making them just as bad as us.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Hmm interesting I am curious, do you have any theories as to what caused our Universe to exist?

                1. Josak profile image60
                  Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I can explain that one to you scientifically if you like.

                  1. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I would like very much smile

                2. Andrew Cockill profile image60
                  Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  If you can get your head around the concept of infinity your half way to understanding it. Remember we can only see inwards (microsopic) as far as we can see outwards (into space). Imagine it as a range or a scale and that we are sat in the middle, or zero. Given we only know the smallest thing to be an atom have you ever asked your self whats inside that and then whats inside that and so on and so on. Well thats kinda like negetive infinity, going small. look up to the stars and the effort is reversed, positive infitity or plus. There simplly is no start middle or end.

                  Now if you can imgine everything is always trying to break down into its lowest form of energy or state. Take a decomposing apple compacting or moving down and inward. It no longer has any engergy but it takes on a form of magnetic atteaction toward the strongest point of gravity, in our case we die and very slowley decompose toward the centre of the earth. imagine our earth is decompsing and getting sucked into the sun, imgine the sun is decomosing and being sucked to its nearest strong magnetic field. But at the same time things plannets are expanding, gaining mass and creating energy to repell its self from another plannet or suns magnetic field (imgine if the moon gained a strong magnetic field from somewhere, it would bugger off from earth and everntuallly get sucked back into another plannet or suns magnets pull or orbit.....did we suck the moon in and did it bounce off us)?
                  This in return would explane why we are aslo expaning out in to the universe. Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light as its the very speed out light which creats everything and also takes it away.

                  we just happened to be on the right place at the right timeT he sun gives us that positive energy to help us escape our own plannet but not enough, we must all return to the soil. By cheating this process we are taking from the plannet what rightfully isnt ours.
                  .

                  1. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    I don't think I am completely following. So you are saying infinity is a concept that can be applied to reality?

    2. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Someone talk to this person, I'm spent for such backwardness. I would suggest that he google the percentage of believers in Jesus Christ that live in the US, to nonbelievers.

      1. calynbana profile image79
        calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        He was saying what his idea of a better world is, not what actually is smile

  31. Mmargie1966 profile image72
    Mmargie1966posted 12 years ago

    Once again, I say:
    The world would be a better place if there were fewer haters

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I agree.  The OP isn't encouraging love, that is for sure.  Fewer haters though, is a for sure better world.  Jesus wasn't a hater.  What he taught would spread more love, if followed.  That is fact.

    2. PhoenixV profile image68
      PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I would agree and would add that we are walking on thin ice if we believe that our personal vision is so clear that we make a suggestion that the world would be better off without certain groups or individuals and actually ponder that, remiss of what it implies.

      That is why we have laws and courts.

      1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
        Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Law and courts are as currupt as the people running the banks.

        why?

        They set the rules, and they break the rules.

        Not all are as people, but in the position they are in asks alot of them. I mean deep down really who are we to judge one another?

        1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
          Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          OOps:
          *Not all are bad as people, but in the position they are in a lot is asked of them.

        2. PhoenixV profile image68
          PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Courts are not perfect, yet they do include rules and a jury. The default is anarchy.

          1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
            Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yup, becaus of our conditions. Remove the monetory system from any culture and your free. But it goes way further back than that, look upp a few posts and read my post about how to solve religion.

      2. rdcast profile image60
        rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Let's join hands and sing along:
        http://youtu.be/SeJ86poZq60 (earphones)

    3. rdcast profile image60
      rdcastposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Mmargie1966, you'd made a great flower child.

  32. Grams Study profile image61
    Grams Studyposted 12 years ago

    I am the daughter of a World War II prisoner of war who was a Christian.  I am the cousin of a Korean war veteran, I am the sister of a Viet Nam war veteran. I am the cousin of a Marine lifer who fought in Saudi Arabia All are people who believe in God.  They fought to give us the right to have freedom of speech.  They also fought to give us the other rights that we are allowed in the United States.  The English came over here to establish freedom of religion when our country was established. 

    Thanks for allowing my comment.

    1. Mmargie1966 profile image72
      Mmargie1966posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you and your family for their sacrifices so that we can all speak freely and believe whatever we choose to.

      God Bless America and her Mighty Military!

      1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
        Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Fear brings them to such methods of world rape.

  33. jennzie profile image69
    jennzieposted 12 years ago

    Religion doesn't create hate and war- it's caused by certain people that practice it.

    1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
      Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Im afraid it does wether it be direct or indirectly. We do things in the name of ourfather/lord and contributing toward a military machine makes us as bad as the people on the front line

      1. calynbana profile image79
        calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        If not in the name of Our Father, then it would be in the name of America, or in the name of Morality, or something else to help us justify what we are doing. It is not the concept of God that creates war and hate, it is the concept of superiority. Somebody thinks they, their way of thinking, or the way they look is superior to another group. They use this as justification for their behavior, it cannot be blamed on God. It must be blamed on our own selfishness and pride.

        1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
          Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          your completely right, certain groups will use religion to strengthen their ideas, this is the problem. As soon as two opposing forces come anywhere near each other then they will either desrtoy each other through trying to get closer or they will submit and go home.

          its all to do with positive and negative energys.

        2. jennzie profile image69
          jennzieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I definitely agree. Certain people will claim to be true and devout followers of a particular religion, such as with Christianity, but while Jesus preached about love and forgiveness, some will instead turn it around to create hate and intolerance to fit their own beliefs. That's what I meant- that no religion preaches about hate, it's the people that use it to create hate and war.

          However, this doesn't apply to Christianity alone.

  34. oceansnsunsets profile image83
    oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years ago

    To fully answer the original post in case in all that other mess it was missed, I wanted to say that I think the world wouldn't be better off if Christians were gone from it.  I will add, it might be a great place or better place if more people became buddhists also.

    I just see so much incredible good being done by good hearted Christians every day all over the world.  There are so many food banks, shelters, soup kitchens, and much more all being done by people whose lives have been changed by Jesus.  No matter what you think of their worldview, their actions can be applauded.

    I would encourage all to be wary of those that say this same religion causes so many wars...  To those that cause wars, they are not acting in the same spirit of Jesus very obviously, and actually acting opposite.  If people don't like wars being fought, they are actually agreeing more with Jesus, which is incredibly ironic.  Too often, we see the facts are that they are speaking of times long ago, back in the crusades, which even the RCC disowns now if I am not mistaken.  It is because it was for other reasons, political, and other gain to be had, or power over people.  That is not something that is borne out of Christian teachings of Jesus.  It would be like using the heretics of Christianity to judge it.  The results are false, and the opposite is clearly true when you look at the facts. 

    So the world would NOT be a better place without Christians.  Even if it were for a short time, for whatever reason, (perceived peace, happiness they are gone, etc...) then it wouldn't last long.  The influence of Jesus, a no name from Nazareth, has made incredible changing differences for so many.  It continues to every day.  Thank "God" for Christian teachings, the ones from Jesus I mean.

  35. Lee Tea profile image68
    Lee Teaposted 12 years ago

    About the original question - I like this: "God ... teaches by means of opposites, so that you will have two wings to fly, not one." - Rumi
    Both Christians and Buddhist are necessary to find the contrast where true knowledge lies. I've been both in my life.

  36. profile image0
    cottageindustryposted 12 years ago

    No. But the world would be a better place without organized religion sowing fear and hatred among the people.

  37. RustyW profile image66
    RustyWposted 12 years ago

    The problem with Christianity is that there are too many Christians...and not enough believers!

    1. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I like that, but I would say not enough Christ followers, I think they believe, they just don't understand what it means to be a follower.

      1. RustyW profile image66
        RustyWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Amen...

  38. RustyW profile image66
    RustyWposted 12 years ago

    Wouldn't it just be easier to say that there are too many people in the world, and that 'war' is good for the "consumer" market?

  39. Cagsil profile image72
    Cagsilposted 12 years ago

    I find the argument that this original OP is hateful to be foolish.

    Asking if the world would be a better place if there were fewer of anything, much less Christians, is just that...a question.

    Can a question be hateful? Why on Earth would anyone view a question as hateful?

    A question is just what it is, a question. All questions are asked for specific reasons. What was the reason for asking the question? Why ask it?

    It doesn't mean that the person who asked the question is being hateful, because only ignorance would say he is.

    I can ask someone if they are a hypocrite?
    I can ask someone if they are a bigot?

    I ask these question not in offense, but to gauge their reaction to said question and hear their voice which is an action, to learn from.

    It is not that I am a hateful person that I ask these sort of questions, but to find out the honesty level of the person I asked.

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Cagsil, in all honesty, I can't see anyone being surprised that you don't find nothing wrong with the question, "Would the world be a better place without Christians?" 

      Christians are people.  We all have opinions.  It wasn't just Christians that thought it offensive.  That some of them backed off of that and then tried to discuss with the Chasuk about his question when looked at as innocent as it could be seen, it wasn't discussed by anyone, and its been bumped and bumped, even acknowledged, but not answered.

      I think I know why, but I had to chuckle when I saw you have no problem.  Its provocative at the very least, and people explained in great detail why they saw it the way they did.  It feels a bit dishonest to see it worded the way it is, then go after Christians more for having a problem with it, its just amazing.  Anyway, he did apologize for it and admitted it should have been worded better.  He owned that, though it is still there..."Would the world be a better place with less Christians..." lol..... 

      We all know these forums, their tone, etc.  Ongoing, and in context...  It is still there.

      1. Cagsil profile image72
        Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Logically speaking, a question isn't to be viewed as hateful. To do so, undermines the learning process/aspect of life. The fact that anyone would find a question hateful, just shows what they want to project from their own inside.

        Learning isn't hateful.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Logic or not, many read it as such and shared why, and they paid for it dearly, trust me, lol. 

          Even if it wasn't meant to be seen that way, (fair), then why not discussed in the other form of its explanation given later on?  I am taking all into consideration.

          Someone could also say its not logical to take it any other way, as Christians are humans.  There are a hundred other ways it could have been stated, using words like Christianity and Buddhism, etc.  Not trying to harp on Chasuk here by any means, especially since he apologized, but others showed better ways to term it as well. 

          People can't just go and say such things, say in commercial, on a billboard, or newspaper, can you imagine?  No editor would ever allow it.  The reason is obvious.  People took it that way, not all Christian.

          Learning and education is good, I agree.

  40. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years ago

    Also, if you like you may ask any single forum participant about the kind of person I am.  I do not insult people, I do not condescend to them, I try with all my heart not to contradict myself in the same sentence, and mostly, I pepper ninety nine percent of my responses with the clear statement that I am expressing opinions.  I don't attempt to put myself up as an authority on anything.  I just tend to enjoy the conversation.  I'm terribly sorry that you see me differently.


    smile

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I didn't see that from you when you said things like,

      "Put on the armor, thicken your skin, and for pete's sake, don't take everything so personally."....

      which in essence is saying, don't take offense at offensive things...  I don't even care who it was to, though the timing and response give some clues... 

      That is a not the same person you described above, and doesn't help what my goal has been....to get them to stop putting people down, and debate instead.  Do you disagree it would be better to bring more debate and discussion than put downs?  Or do you not?  Then you said that quote above..  that was to PhoenixV I think, but I totally agree with what I have been seeing him say, and it might have been for me too, and I don't want to assume. 

      I will stand up for all people, and no one really stands up for the Christians around here, and I do see a lot of support for anti christian anti theists, and the opposite for christians.  If you haven't seen it, that would be hard for me to believe.   

      Its not fair for people to put other down, and their friends to say, "
      Put on the armor, thicken your skin, and for pete's sake, don't take everything so personally."  That isn't a person that I equate with the above description you give of yourself.  If you are normally that way, I will believe you and watch in the future if I stay on these forums.  There is a bad climate here very often, and people that seem to feed the need to put Christians in particular down, though theists in general get it hard here.  I don't care who you are, there is simply no denying this fact.(prior to this date anyway, not speaking on if things change after.)

  41. profile image0
    blake4dposted 12 years ago

    The fact is the world would probably be a better place, if there were a few less of everyone of us, every type of group, religion, ideology, or opinion. No one group is responsible for all of the world's problems or solutions. None is better or worse in the grand equation.

  42. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    One reason why Buddhism rocks and why the world would be better if more Buddhists existed:

    Two monks on a pilgrimage came to the ford of a river. There they saw a girl dressed in all her finery, obviously now knowing what to do since the river was high and she did not want to spoil her clothes. Without more ado, one of the monks took her on his back, carried her across and put her down on dry ground on the other side. Then the monks continued on their way.

    However, the other monk, after an hour or so, started complaining, “Surely it is not right to touch a woman; it is against the commandments to have close contact with women. How could you go against the rules for monks?”

    The monk who had carried the girl walked along silently, but finally he remarked, “I set her down by the river an hour ago, why are you still carrying her?”

    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Love it.  Heard it years ago - but they were Catholic monks...lol

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
        MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Of course... Catholics stealing from Buddhist wisdom... how surprising wink

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Wisdom is wisdom, regardless from whence it may have come!

        2. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, I'm definitely thinking of that Grady Nut joke now...

      2. Chris Neal profile image77
        Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Reminds me of a joke I once heard Grady Nut tell...

  43. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years ago

    In any event, I need to step away for a bit to walk my dog and help my husband with dinner.  I'll respond to anything directed to me when I return.

    smile

  44. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 12 years ago

    oceansnsunsets, I'm so sorry, I missed this from you - "Put on the armor, thicken your skin, and for pete's sake, don't take everything so personally."....

    Those are my words, indeed.  They were not a put down to anyone.  They were a piece of advice given to me that I felt would be beneficial to pass on to others.

    At this point in our conversation, I think you're just looking to be absolutely, irrevocably right - about what it does not matter.

    I wish you the best of luck.

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sure it matters, and if I am wrong about wanting less put downs and more discussion with facts, then so be it.  That isn't fair what you say, but you can say that.  I am not sure why I even try, as people don't seem to want to even see the most basic and obvious points I am making. 

      They actually go without saying, I already know I am right, and they are more moral than the opposite, the points about putting down less, showing facts more.

      If it weren't such a good point, I would just be quiet.  If you are truly still taking the opposite side with me, that is fine, and I don't need you to take my side.  It just makes no sense.  What is going on, is people are frustrated for their friends that didn't act cool.  I think its a way of trying to possibly survive around here, as a Christian, in a pretty hostile environment.  I see too, it has been rewarded.

      With that, comes the need however, (or it appears) to try and prove people like me wrong.  I won't mention my main point to you again, you already knew it.

      1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
        oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        "At this point in our conversation, I think you're just looking to be absolutely, irrevocably right - about what it does not matter."

        From a person that never puts anyone down, nor condescends, only gives opinions, etc.

        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You're right.  That wasn't meant to insult you at all.  It is my opinion of how I see what it is you're doing.  And, frankly, I have a right to my opinion, whether it differs from yours or not.

          I'm also of the opinion that you're carrying a huge plank around in your eyeball and so are unable to clean the speck from mine, or anyone else's.  And, that was not at all a putdown - it was a piece of advice from Christ Himself that I think we all must heed.

          I think you may be the first person I've encountered here who doesn't respect me and is of the opinion that I am dishonest to make myself more popular, or to gain friends, or whatever...

          At this point, I concede.  Being fair to all is an admirable goal. 

          As a matter of opinion, however, I do not believe that you are - however loudly you try to trumpet the point.

          1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
            oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That is fine Motown.  It seems to me that you have been saying one thing about yourself, but doing another throughout your posts.  You echo what others have done, but have yet to show where I have been wrong about anything.  You put down, then say you are not.  It doesn't work that way, and its just another version of what you were defending before, while saying you weren't defending. 

            You want respect, and people to see your opinion, but don't do the same for others or seem very fair to me.  Its easy to side with those you like.  It takes a strong person to stand up for what is right, even if their friends may not like it.

            I wish you the best, regardless of what you have said to me, or how you judge me.  My persistence in my point that cannot be refuted (show facts, not put downs) remains to be shown to be wrong. It is amazing what people will do to try and prove others wrong, when they are already shown to be wrong or defending what is wrong.  When you defend an inedefensible position, it generates frustration but is fair because truths are true no matter what, and not because either of us say so. 

            Take care, and hopefully you don't have to speak to others that challenge you to see a better way in discussion and debate than putting others down, or some other thing like that. Like I said to Melissa, thankfully I stand before a higher judge than you.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
              oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Oh, and Motown, if you care to show HOW I have not been fair to all, then please do show that, or show how I have a plank in my own eye.  Me, not just taking stuff laying down doesn't make those things true.  Standing by my convictions when put down over and over by people like you, is not a bad thing, unfair, or hypocritical.  Really, you are hoping I will just not ask for people to bring more fair dialogue.  Its sad that this is the state of affairs on HubPages, and that you join right in with them. 

              Ask yourself this...what exactly on my main point from the beginning, did you think I was wrong on, or want me to back down off of?  Nothing....   Or, you would have shared it, thus the made up things that don't stick AGAIN, without back up.  You just proved you are the very same.  Still, I wish you the best and hope you will want to treat others better in the future.  I didn't accuse you either, by the way, of things you said I did.  I can respect you, but not your actions on here and what you clearly defend.

  45. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
    EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years ago

    Wow Chasuk, I expected a great many replies to this question, but I wasn't expecting so much whining and complaining to come of it.

    I hope that everything is going well on your end.

    1. oceansnsunsets profile image83
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Some of us are still hoping for some discussion from him on the original post as he reexplained it.  I look forward to that.

      1. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I also hope for discussion on my original post, but I feel compelled to explain a few things first. This explanation may delay, or utterly sabotage, my stated hope, but I feel that it needs to be said.

        First, I ask everyone to consider what it is that they feel, subjectively, when they feel offense, and why it is that they feel it.

        Do you have your answer? Are you holding it in your mind? If no, then I ask then you keep searching until you find it. If yes, then I ask that you keep hold of your answer as I share mine.

        Offense, to me, is the displeasure that I feel -- sometimes amounting to actual anger -- when I encounter an expression or witness an action that I don't like. It may be a more complicated emotion to other people, but that's what it is to me.

        Now here's where I might get myself into trouble. Here's where I might -- and I am not being facetitious --cause some people offense.

        Of offense, Stephen Fry said, "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gave them certain rights; it's actually nothing more. . . It's simply a whine. 'I find that offensive,' It has no meaning, it has no purpose, It has no reason to be respected as a phrase."

        I both approve and disapprove. Specifically, I approve of what Fry said in essense, but I slightly disapprove of the unnecessary harshness of his expression. No, that isn't a contradiction. It is possible to agree with a sentiment while wishing that it had been expressed in another way.

        I'm fat. I'm not going to sugarcoat it; I'm approximately 100 pounds overweight. Am I offended when someone calls me fat? That depends. I live in South Korea, and Koreans call me fat fairly frequently, often poking me in the belly as they do so. Are they being offensive? I don't perceive it as such; they are simply observing, and marveling at, a seldom-seen obesity. The word "fat" is a descriptor; it has no negative connotations. I can infer whatever I want, but I would be wrong to infer it. On the other hand, I once had an American woman say to me, apropos of nothing --she was a passerby on the street -- "I don't know how you can stand to be seen in public, with that gross gut." Was I offended? I certainly was.

        The difference in these situations is one of truth and intent. The Koreans are expressing a factual truth, and their intent is often kind. "You are fat," they are saying to me. "Being fat isn't good for your health. You should lose weight." As a foreigner, it took me a while to figure out what they didn't have the vocabulary to say. The American woman wasn't expressing a factual truth, rather she was expressing _her_ offense at my obesity. Her intent wasn't neutral sharing, but malicious.

        One more example, before I stop flogging this dead horse.

        Am I offended when someone calls me ignorant?

        Sometimes, yes. Usually, no. I am not offended when it is true, provided that the intent was not malicious. I am ignorant of many things. In fact, I am ignorant of far more things than I am knowledgeable. That's all that ignorance means; lack of knowledge. When someone truthfully and non-malciously points out my lack of knowledge, they are helping me. Now I know that I have a knowledge gap, which I can choose to repair, or not.

        If you accuse me of having a "persecution complex", you won't offend me. It is either true or it isn't true, and it carries no pejorative meaning. If it is true, then it might be a problem that I want to address. Likewise, the word "zealot" contains no pejorative meaning, although it may, arguably, contain a pejorative connotation. In my opinion, it has contained no pejorative connotation in its use in this forum. On the other hand, "mindless sheep" is pejorative, and I don't see any way in which it can be sincerely argued otherwise.

        Penultimately -- because, no, I am not yet _quite_ finished -- I disagree that any of these terms reach the level of hate speech, whether applied to an individual, or to a group.

        Finally, a word about atheists in general, and atheists on Internet forums.

        Atheists are sometimes jerks. I am sometimes a jerk, although I do my best to minimize those times. Ostensibly, atheism is a rational decision, but that isn't always true, especially among those who have violently disassociated themselves from their former faith. The deliberate, intellectually scrupulous atheists congregate on Internet forums, but so do the irrational ones. This is also true of Christians, but it doesn't work as an accusation against Christians, because faith, ultimately, is a leap that atheists can't, or won't, make.

        The important thing to understand is that atheists are in the minority, at least in the US, which seems to provide the Internet its largest atheist population. Some of us -- myself included -- have no other venue in which to gossip, gripe, and fellowship with our peers. We all meet here, the angry jerks, the intellectually motivated (who are still sometimes jerks), and we invariably interact with those who hold antithetical philosophies.

        Sometimes, these interactions are gentle, and sometimes, they are explosive. Our test --Christian's and atheist's alike -- doesn't occur in that initial interaction, but in how we regroup. If we regroup with continued hostility, then we have failed. If we regroup with metaphorical handshakes, with metaphorical smiles, possibly with concessions, and with the commitment to be good to each other, then we all win.

        That's all I have to say on this subject.

        1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
          Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi bud, ever wondered why we dont like bag feed back or have different levels of misery?

          Drop me a pm on civic_andy@msn.com.

        2. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Well done.  And, on an iPad, no less...lol

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It was the longest thing I've ever written on an iPad. I'm actually on my wife's computer now, having ventured out of bed a bit, slowly feeling better. She's playing Diablo 3 on my computer.

            Thanks for your frequent sensible input, by the way.

            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Glad you're feeling a bit better.  Sick sucks.  sad

              I did try with all my heart to remain sensible throughout, but I have a feeling that in the end, I may have simply been having a different conversation than my partner.  It happens sometimes.

        3. oceansnsunsets profile image83
          oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Chasuk, I don't really disagree with you when you describe what you feel when you feel "offense or offended." 

          You say,

          "Am I offended when someone calls me ignorant?

          Sometimes, yes. Usually, no. I am not offended when it is true, provided that the intent was not malicious."

          I agree with that, and it echoes a lot of what I have said in this thread.  That being, "when it is true."  Call me ANYTHING you want, and show it to be true, if it is.  I invited people to even do that.  That isn't what happened here, as things played out. 

          Also, you said, "provided the intent is not malicious...."  This isn't easy to gauge of course, and we rely on people's word, after the fact.  All we can do in those cases is take their greater behavior into account, in that context, and try to imagine what kind of scenario would explain what we are seeing (in a search for an explanation.)

          What I ultimately end up doing is trying to help do what I can to make an environment more fair for all, and let the points stand on their own, without game playing or side taking. 

          I have the utmost respect for opponents to my worldview, that can keep things civil, not insert subtle putdowns, not be disingenuous, stick to the facts, and not gang up or bully others.  Numbers and power shouldn't count so much as the points themselves in debate and discussion circles.  I can admit that what I am wanting is ideal, and not really realistic as I have been doing this for years.  All the more, why I totally respect an honest person that seems to be seeking and respecting the truth as much as I try to be (and hope that I am).  This is where it gets hard.... can we truly tackle the problems with our own worldviews, IF there are any, or do we recoil and lash out and play any of the numerous possible games and use tactics to avoid what we don't want to see?  (Speaking of nothing particular here, in general from my observations over the years.)

          Again, that all said, that is why when I find someone willing to face their views, and what they say to me head on, I very much respect that.  Good points, and truths have a way of standing on their own.  Its an admission on my part, that I will probably be frustrated as long as I want fairness in all these things, but when I DO get involved, I will always ask for it if I see things getting off balance.  Not for me only, but for all of us. 

          Another question would be, "why do we feel the need to put down at all, the people we disagree with?"  Can we not just attack their points, if they are bad points?  If they don't have bad points, can we consider if what they are saying is true, and wonder why we feel upset or offended at all if we do?  These are things I ask myself, and its not as easy as it sounds.  Intellectually honesty is easier to ask others to engage in, but for ourselves, with our own doubts and struggles, not so easy.  This is why I go after my own worldview the hardest, and look and see if what others are saying about it is possibly true.  I don't want to believe or think anything good that isn't true and good.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts....those are mine.

          Ocean

      2. profile image0
        Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I wrote a lengthy response to this, which appears in the feed, but not in the forum.

        I am not sure why this happens, but it is certainly frustrating.

        EDIIT: Now it appears, above. smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Prolly God is messing with you. He does that apparently. lol

          1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Mark... assuming the possibility for a moment that there was a God if you were in his place wouldn't YOU mess with people?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Assuming I was the product of the human imagination - of course. lol

        2. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Two points...

          The first is that mindless sheep most likely is pejorative but the alternative phrasing would have likely been "followers who blindly accept all religious doctrine without question LIKE mindless sheep being led to slaughter" would likely have been as offensive to those who found the abbreviated form offensive.

          The second is that in addition to being either a statement of fact or an insult the term fat can actually be a compliment.  To those who like their partners heavy it is almost a romantic requirement smile  Eye of the beholder and all that.

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with both of your points, intellectually. Well, I agree with your first point without that caveat, by your second point is harder, whenever this beholder looks in the mirror. :-)

            But thanks!

  46. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 12 years ago

    Well, I think the contentiousness, ill will and general aggression on this thread proves that the world would indeed be a better place with less people thinking a dead gay guy is speaking instructions directly to them into their head. If that is what I understand "Christian," to mean - according to many. Perhaps the loudest "christian," can tell us which of the Mosaic laws he needs to aggressively defend in order to appease the majikal super being after death?

    Little wonder Christianity causes so many fights. sad

    1. Andrew Cockill profile image60
      Andrew Cockillposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Couldn'have put it any better my self. Its all nonsense, like most things invented by man.

    2. Civil War Bob profile image60
      Civil War Bobposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Mark, two things...first, the antagonism is understandable when you know that the Prince of Peace said of Himself that He came not to bring peace, but a sword...between people.  (Mt. 10:34)  The peace pact He established at the Cross, hence the name Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6), is between God and individuals.
      John 6:29 answers your appeasement question: Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
      Oh, I say this in a measured "voice" that need not be loud.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I agree. Christianity is a very divisive philosophy. The Prince of Peace? How funny that you don't see the irony there.

        1. Civil War Bob profile image60
          Civil War Bobposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Actually, Mark, the irony of His title WAS my point.  I also see the irony in that, on the one hand Christianity is divisive in a "them vs. us" way, but it also is THE most unifying belief system on the planet where those of us who are adopted into His family TRULY consider ourselves brothers and sisters; which is how the Bible portrays the familial relationship that will occur among some folks from every "nation, tribe, and tongue"...which we know as "people groups" these days. 
          To adopt an adage (pun intended) His Blood shed for us IS thicker than water, wit, wisdom, and any other item of this world; which allows vastly different people to show love one to another. 
          Sorry...starting to get preachy as Bible Bob steps in for Civil War Bob.
          Enjoy your day, Mark!

    3. calynbana profile image79
      calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Is your attitude aggressive Mark? Was Christianity starting the hostility on this thread? Or was it the aggressive attitudes of people on this threads? People who want to be right. It isn't the religion of Christianity, it is the attitude of people who claim to follow this religion or any other.

      When you meet true Christians who do what Christ commanded then you will have a hard time making that statement.

      You seem to be ignoring my messages that point out the intellectual dishonesty in some of your claims. Is there a reason for that?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        LOL Are you doing what Christ commanded? Arguing and fighting with people who do not subscribe to your irrational belief system?

        Yes - Christianity started this discussion. No majikal super being telling you to spread nonsense - no discussion.

        Odd you cannot understand that.

        1. calynbana profile image79
          calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I am not arguing with people, I have avoided that as much as possible. I have only provided reasons for my beliefs. That is exactly what Christ commanded. I have also asked others for the reasons behind their beliefs. This is not called an argument, this would be called a discussion.

          Throwing insults however is aggressive, that would be an instigator for arguments. Many of the comments you leave are insulting and I think it is that attitude of superiority that does start fights. 

          I am not going to argue about magical super beings (as I do not believe in magical super beings) I will ask you again why you have been ignoring my previous posts. Is it because you recognized the truth in them?

          Christianity did not start this discussion, Chasuk did. I do not know what you meant by that :p

          I understand what you are saying Mark, I am simply disagreeing with your conclusion. I believe it is false and ignores the facts.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            LOL What facts are these? And - yes - yopu do believe in majikal super beings. You are just not honest enough to admit so.

            No Kristianity? No discussion. Sorry.

            1. calynbana profile image79
              calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I am confused by your last sentence, it does not make sense.

              No I do not believe is magical super beings, I believe in God. If you look up the definition of God, you will find that he is not by nature magical. There is your mixed up fact number one.

              Number two, claiming that it is Christianity that creates arguments, fights, and wars. You have said numerous times this is why "your" religion starts wars.

              I think you are mistaken, it is not the religion that starts problems, it is the very attitude that says "your" religion. It is the us against them mentality that starts problems. Conflict arises when people think they are superior in some form whether it be intellectually, spiritually or physically. It also arises when people insist on categorizing other people, Christians believe in God, but they are also human. Just like atheists. We cannot be categorized as war starters any more than any other religious group. People are war starters.

              Fact number three. Check what it actually means to be Christian. I do not know who you have met that has claimed to be Christian but I do know your definition of Christianity does not match the definition that the early Christian church believed in. It definitely does not match the definition Christ laid out for his followers.

              Be honest with yourself and others, look into who Christians really are, if it helps look up the definition of words before making presumptions.

              I think I may expect a little too much from people here when I ask them to be objective and respectful. I am used to a more respectful adult environment. But then again I am from Canada tongue (that was a joke btw)

  47. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago

    Some say that Jesse James was a good man. One can't help what others claim, if one is conveniently dead. What Jesus said of himself is this: "I come, not to bring peace upon the earth. I bring division, division and a sword. I would set a father against his son and a daughter against her mother." So, Jesus himself denied directly that he was this 'Prince Of Peace'. I think that was Michael Jackson.smile A truly magical being, bettaligo notwithstanding.

    1. Civil War Bob profile image60
      Civil War Bobposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Druid, Jesus didn't deny his title.  If you scroll up a bit in this thread, you'll see where I point out to Mark Knowles that Jesus provided the peace pact between His Father and people (hence, His title) while at the same time being the point of contention between people and other people.

      1. Chris Neal profile image77
        Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Amen! Cherry-picking is the favorite tool of the skeptic.

        1. mischeviousme profile image60
          mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What of the christian, pulling scripture and cherry picking approval and etification from fellow acolytes?

          1. Chris Neal profile image77
            Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I don't deny that Christians do the same thing. Not all Christians, just as not all unbelievers cherry pick. God certainly endowed us with the ability to think critically, and the good theologians look at all the Scripture. And there are certainly good theologians.

            1. mischeviousme profile image60
              mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              There are, the only truly good one's are outsiders, researching for personal reasons... Mainly to understand.

              1. Chris Neal profile image77
                Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Why? Why is it axiomatic that the only truly good theologians are "outsiders?" And does that also mean that if an outsider satisfies themselves that the Bible is true, and therefor becomes an "insider," then they are no longer a good theologian?

            2. artblack01 profile image61
              artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this

              The majority of Christians cherry pick and the majority of Christians don't understand their own religion, which is funny the majority of nonbelievers know more about Christianity than the Christians do.... this is was found in a test given to both groups, nonbelievers generally got better scores about Christianity.  This is only in the United States however, people in Europe generally know their religion better than anyone.  I don't yet have data on that.

              1. Chris Neal profile image77
                Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yeah, I read that too. The only thing I can say to that right now is, you'd never know it from these forums!

        2. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          And the believer it seems. Tell us about the ample historical evidence for Jesus again. I like it when you bear false witness.

      2. artblack01 profile image61
        artblack01posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        People and other people???? Is that what groups he was talking to?

  48. profile image52
    ChenardRobinsonposted 12 years ago

    I truly think that your post is effective but the world would be much less of one without followers of the teaching of Christ. Now on the other hand there is a major difference between followers of Christ and the ones that believe in the fairy tale version of Christ being the Universal force that drives life and existence. For all the so called believers of Christ yes the world would have a resonance of peace without them. But his students are just as important as Buddha's.

    1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
      EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That depends on what you consider a follower of the teachings of Christ. A lot of what Christ taught was Judaism. Later it became different with people like Paul saying things had changed. Just as a for instance, Jesus said he did not come to change or destroy, yet Paul says he did change and destroy. We have to deeply consider who is right, Jesus or Paul, since people seem to be unable to distinguish the difference, we run into the current problem of who to follow.

      1. recommend1 profile image61
        recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        We had this discussion a month or so ago - I agree with this,  all the most harmful christian brands follow Paul.

        1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
          EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I didn't see it, sorry.

      2. calynbana profile image79
        calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yes but you need to read his words carefully, he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. With the law fulfilled there are aspects of the law which are no longer our responsibility. Such as judging people and putting them to death, Jesus said he is the judge. Another example is the sacrifices, with the law fulfilled by his sacrifice we no longer need to make animal sacrifices for our sins.

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          And the law on mixed fibers... and long hair on men... and homosexuality... and shellfish... and more than one crop in a field?

          1. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Honestly Melissa, I don't know. What I do know is that Jesus told us not to judge. To spread the word and to love God and our neighbor above ourselves, if we show this love then we show our love for Him and our faith in Him. So we are saved. These are the most important of His teachings, and I think that with them we need to see how the rest of the laws tie in.

            1. profile image0
              jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I'm still waiting for the meaning of infinite regress.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Oh sorry. Okay think about this, imagine that you have an infinite number of ancestors. You are creating a family tree. You would be at it for an infinite amount of time as you could never reach the first couple that started your family tree. You would be stuck in an infinite regress. Same as when you try to explain the cause of the Universe, you can say that the Big Bang caused the Universe to begin to expand, you can say that Omega (The first cause) sparked the Big Bang, and then you would be left with the question of who caused the first cause. With this reasoning you would again be stuck with the problem of infinite regress. Do you see what I am saying? I can clarify more if you like smile

                1. profile image0
                  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  So if universe is created the creator has a creator, has a creator goes on and on, right?
                  Since you do not want to go on and on you just stop with the immediate one. So if you want to stop, why you don't stop now, that universe has no beginning nor creator or 16 times previous?
                  If anything is created the creator ought to be more complex than the creation, so if the less complex universe need a creator, the creator ought to be more complex, so can't spontaneously arise.
                  What we have is the present, and present is the fact and past is just a conjecture. You can not arbitrarly assume a 0 to past and say present is 4000 or 13.7 billion years. So let us assume present as '0'. Yesterday as -1 and tomorrow as +1. So by travelling a finite number of times(-1, -2, -3...) will you reach a beginning?

                  1. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Infinite regress assumes no beginning, which some people find problematic. I don't, personally.

          2. Chris Neal profile image77
            Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus told us that shellfish are okay.

            Some parts of the law we need to still follow.

            Acts laid out which ones were the most important.

        2. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
          EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Jesus never said that sacrifice was ended because of his death, and he never said that him fulfilling the law got rid of it. That's where errant thinking comes in. Paul says those things, Jesus does not. I look at it as Jesus fulfilled the laws, so there is no reason and no excuse for anyone else not to do so, he proved it was possible. His death shows him embracing the fact that he is going to die and living his life anyway, instead of getting scared and running. It's all about interpretation. You can believe what it actually says and shows, or you can believe how Paul (while using gnostic and pagan teachings) interprets it. The option is yours, I'm just pointing it out.

          1. profile image52
            ChenardRobinsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            We could go on forever and a day about the teachings of Jesus whether they were of Hebrew origin or not. The Earth is over four hundred million years old. Please lets not be so simple minded to think that our current religions have lasted the test of human time. Everything from Judaism is a virtue from Egypt so lets just say that all these virtues taught by great men have been since the beginning of time.

            1. Chris Neal profile image77
              Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Come again? From Egypt? Where can I read up on that one?

              1. profile image52
                ChenardRobinsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Easy the founder of the religion was taught in Egypt doesn't take rocket science to figure out that he can't create a new religion out of thin air. The ten Commandments that were placed on stone were already written in the book of the living.

                1. Chris Neal profile image77
                  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Um, yeah. I googled that one and couldn't find any reference, so I'll still need those.

                  Why does YHWH not track that closely with Ra? If Moses simply appropriated Egyption religion, why are the differences so overewhelmingly pronounced? Why monotheism instead of the Egyptian-style polytheism?

                  Besides, Mosed didn't create a new religion out of thin air. He was handed it by God.

                  1. mischeviousme profile image60
                    mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Jesus is an effigy of Horus, the sun of Ra. Horus was sent to deliver men from the tyrany of life and the threat of Set. The same could be said for Jesus, he was sent to deliver man from the tyrany of death and the threat of Satan. What's the difference? Your particular opinion and level of education, conditioning and indoctrination. It's all garbage, none of which is useful anymore.

                  2. profile image52
                    ChenardRobinsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Come now Chris any common book on the history of religion will tell you that the God Moses discovered or was brought into the light by was not named YHWH the deity was named EL. Hence the name of the people he saved went from being the Habiru or Hebrew to the Israelites hence Moses true effect on the people a mixture of his teachings from Egypt along with new found knowledge. Let's break down the word IS-RA-EL. (Isis RA and EL)
                    Sounds like a holy trinity to me and effectively represents each side of the pyramid.
                    Like I said Chris Jesus isn't the first savior in history and he surely won't be the last.

          2. calynbana profile image79
            calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree that we need to look at Jesus' teachings but we also need to look at what happened after the death of Jesus, not necessarily what Paul taught but the actual historical events. Look into the sacrifices made before and after the death of Jesus.

          3. Chris Neal profile image77
            Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Okay, if the sacrifices are still vital, where should we perform them? The Law stated that the sacrifices must be performed at the Temple, but the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and despite the fact that there are people who would like to rebuild it, the Dome of the Rock makes that kind of impossible.

            Jesus, if you go by strictly what He said, came to lay down His life for us. Otherwise, it would have been a stupid waste. And He did claim to be God.

            1. EinderDarkwolf profile image60
              EinderDarkwolfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              He also said that faith in the amount of a mustard seed could move a mountain. He said lots of things.

              As for where the sacrifices would take place, where did they take place before the temple? For that matter, where did Cain and Able perform their sacrifices? They existed before the Temple.

              1. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Einder look into the sacrifices that were made before and after the resurrection please. Not where they happened so much as what happened when they were made.

                Also what does it mean to have faith the size of a mustard seed? People seem to think that faith is easy. You just say you believe, but this isn't true. Faith is hard, really consider what it means to have faith. Even a little faith. Finally Jesus spoke in parables, why is this mustard seed moving mountains bit always taken literally? Isn't that quote mining?

              2. calynbana profile image79
                calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Einder look into the sacrifices that were made before and after the resurrection please. Not where they happened so much as what happened when they were made.

                Also what does it mean to have faith the size of a mustard seed? People seem to think that faith is easy. You just say you believe, but this isn't true. Faith is hard, really consider what it means to have faith. Even a little faith. Finally Jesus spoke in parables, why is this mustard seed moving mountains bit always taken literally? Isn't that quote mining?

                1. PhoenixV profile image68
                  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree and its a good analogy. If I only had the faith of a mustard seed, which proverbially is so very small yet is so determined.

                  I bet if I had the faith of a mustard seed I could take a small envelope and include within it a teaspoon of my nearest mountain. And send it to Einder via mail. If I became even more determined and my faith grew I could move TO the mountain itself and use UPS to send him a very large box of rocks from  the mountain. I could work night and day until I save enough money to buy a truck and a loader and start sending him huge quantities of this mountain. Perhaps others would help?

                  Einder? Where would you like your mountain delivered?

                  1. calynbana profile image79
                    calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    LOL again I am just sitting here smiling

              3. Chris Neal profile image77
                Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                It's a good thing I like you because that question beggars intellectual credibility.

                Seriously, if you knew the Bible, as you claim you do, then you would know that where the sacrifices took place before the Temple was erected is absolutely irrelevant. Once the Temple was erected, they Law stated that the sacrifices must be performed at the Temple. Or let me answer your question with this question: If the location of the sacrifices could be anywhere, why didn't the Jews continue the sacrifices after the destruction of the Temple?

        3. Chris Neal profile image77
          Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Well said! Wish I'd phrased it that way!

      3. Chris Neal profile image77
        Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Paul taught that Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it.

        Jesus taught that He brought not peace but a sword.

        1. calynbana profile image79
          calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          That sword being the word, the word divides families and groups. It is not meant as a literal sword violently divide people. Just to add to your comment smile

          1. Chris Neal profile image77
            Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, it is not meant as a literal sword. But  the Word nonetheless does sometimes violently divide people.

  49. recommend1 profile image61
    recommend1posted 12 years ago

    Wow - this is still going with Melissa at the batting plate !!!!

    From a quick read here - it is clear that christians have no idea of their history, no idea of just who they are following, and are unaware that they live in direct contradiction to the teachings of their chosen guide.

    In response to Crissylite - I have to come to realise that christianity in its new forms of baptist, born again, mini-cult, and those who prefer to justify their own bigotry without a brand, etc., - are personality disorders.  And in their overall effect they are as damaging as paedophilia is to its victims.  Here in China I watch them sliming their way into small childrens lives by pretending to teach English and then feeding them biblebabble when they have them in private, lurking (literally) on street corners looking lost to ensnare any poor passerby stupid enough to offer to help them. etc etc.

    I have no issue with christians who are living their lives in the spirit of their 'leader', I don'think anyone has, including those anti-babblers who frequent these pages trying to keep reason with its head above water.  I also understand why some of those with low intelligence levels, or lack of reasoning ability, turn to christianity as a guide for their miserable restricted lives - I have real objection to those people being told to push ther juvenile ramblings and deep misunderstandings onto others. 

    The current increasing trend of the worlds idiots to congregate around the totally illogical and patently ridiculous interpretations of the christian message is scary. 
    Would it be better if there were less christians - definately.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image59
      MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I am permitted to climb the four flights of stairs to and from my apartment only for doctor's visits.  Boredom overwhelms me.  It's this or Solitaire...

      1. recommend1 profile image61
        recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I am learning how to play chinese chess - it started as a suck-up tactic in dealing with my new father in law, as learning majiang is in respect of mother in law.  I am finding it a really good game in its own right however - and about ten million people online to play with !

        1. SomewayOuttaHere profile image59
          SomewayOuttaHereposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          hey r1....married, eh?...finally...good for you!...i thought you were banned!

          1. recommend1 profile image61
            recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I was, and so with so much time on my hands I took the opportunity to get hitched - the party is still next summer, take this as your invitation !

        2. A Thousand Words profile image70
          A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I saw your panda and I couldn't help myself.


          http://s3.hubimg.com/u/6618078_f248.jpg

  50. MelissaBarrett profile image59
    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

    So the citing source that you are giving for your argument is an Orson Wells movie?

 
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HubPages Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Traffic PixelThis is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
Amazon Web ServicesThis is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
CloudflareThis is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted LibrariesJavascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)
Features
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Google MapsSome articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google ChartsThis is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host APIThis service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTubeSome articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
VimeoSome articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
PaypalThis is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
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MavenThis supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)
Marketing
Google AdSenseThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClickGoogle provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index ExchangeThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
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Facebook AdsThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad MarketplaceThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexusThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
OpenxThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon ProjectThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLiftThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say MediaWe partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing PixelsWe may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking PixelsWe may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.
Statistics
Author Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
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ClickscoThis is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)