How Do You Conclude that There is No 'Light-switch' Inside a Dark Room

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   God shetposted 9 years ago

   
   
   Almost every atheist has the awareness of a (very interesting)  silver-bullet. Whenever anyone says: I know God exists ~ they jump up from their seat and proclaim this, with a domineering pose:  "What is your evidence?"  If you answer: "I have no evidence to prove that God exists", then you are certain to get back this answer: "Nothing exists that you can not provide any evidence for".
   
   
   Now here is the thing:  Most atheists are actually 'unwilling' to discover God: it is possible to discover the existence of God within one's lifetime. But that requires study, discipline, meditation, and an unbiased mind that is willing to accept that the existence of God is a valid possibility. But deep in the hearts of atheists lies a secret hatred for God. They can't even tolerate the idea that God might indeed be a possibility.
   
   
   They are led to stand before the doorstep of a dark room ~ and encouraged to discover if there is any light-switch ('God') inside it. The only way to find out ~ is to enter the light-less room, and physically search for the switch on the wall (using one's arms).
   
   But instead of doing that: most atheists proclaim this from the doorstep, with a domineering pose:  "We are convinced, there is no light-switch inside that dark room!".

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      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      What were the atheists thinking,  god indeed exists.
      Here he is in all his glory, the one and only Quetzalcoatl.
      
      

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         God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         This is the problem ~ that atheists tend to form conclusions ~ before (unbiasedly) investigating a subject.

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            Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            This is the problem ~ that theists tend to form conclusions ~ before (unbiasedly) investigating a subject.
            Most theists proclaim this from the doorstep, with a domineering pose:  "We are convinced, there is no light-switch inside that dark room if the switch is not to our liking!"
            Most theists are actually 'unwilling' to discover Quetzalcoatl: it is possible to discover the existence of Quetzalcoatl within one's lifetime. But that requires study, discipline, meditation, and an unbiased mind that is willing to accept that the existence of Quetzalcoatl is a valid possibility.

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               God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               If you mean the 'God of religion' ~ when you say 'Quetzalcoatl':  you are making some sense. But at the same time, I must say that it's a fact that we might discover bigger, and more powerful Quetzalcoatls', if we turn on the television.
               
               
               (The original argument stays.)

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                  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Can't even tolerate the idea that Quetzalcoatl might indeed be a possibility?

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                     God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     I don't need to 'tolerate' that idea.

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                        wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        But the atheist should "tolerate" and even embrace the concept of your god?  How does that work?

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                           God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           That's the point. Atheists take that pressure unnecessarily.

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                        Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        Only unwilling to discover Quetzalcoatl?

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                  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Jomine has a point; the common reaction of the theist is to leave the door closed and proclaim that the switch inside (known to be there because all rooms have a switch) is the older toggle style and not the newer (and better) decora style.  No research or testing necessary - both that the switch is there AND that it is the toggle style is somehow known without ever looking.  They even somehow know that it is cream colored and not white, brown, red or black, even though all are common colors for light switches.

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                     God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     You repeatedly mix religion with spirituality.

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                        wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        You're the one that started the thread with the analogy of a light switch and a god, not I.
                        
                        Nevertheless, the belief in a god and spirituality are identical in this case - that both are belief without knowledge, just as the type, placement and even existence of the light switch is without ever looking.

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                           God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           "Nevertheless, the belief in a god and spirituality are identical in this case - that both are belief without knowledge"
                           
                           
                           ~ To you. Not for everyone.

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                              wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              Then show it.  Put our hands on the switch.

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                                 God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 That type of conversation (and 'demonstration') isn't possible over the internet. I'm serious about it. I might get into it anytime within the next few years. Something like this is long overdue.

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                                    wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    I don't understand why it isn't possible.  Unless the "demonstration" is little more than evoking an emotional response that ends with I believe! without ever even opening the door, let alone touching the switch or seeing what it does.
                                    
                                    And, of course, the atheists put considerable effort into avoiding just such demonstrations as they really produce nothing but belief instead of knowledge.  Knowing that we are all susceptible to emotional reactions, and that such reactions do not produce knowledge, it is best to avoid them.

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                                       God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       You have some interesting preconceived notions about the demonstration.

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                                          wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                          Probably because I've been subjected to so many of them and that's what they all end up being.

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                                             God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                             That is fairly understandable to you.

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                                                wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                Not sure what you mean. 
                                                
                                                But what about you?  You've obviously become a believer - what made it happen?  An emotional response devoid of reason or did you find and test evidence for truth?  Ignorance ("I don't know so it must be a god")?  Did you experience a miracle that violated natural laws, one that you investigated thoroughly and are positive violated those laws?  Did someone else convince you or did you research and find it all alone?

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                                                   God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                   "You've obviously become a believer"
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   ~ You are fairly mistaken this time.

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      wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      If you find the light switch, you can take your friend, hold them by the hand and put their hand on the switch.  Now they found the switch, too.
      
      But if you can't find the switch in spite of knowing exactly where it should be, the only conclusion is either that it isn't there or isn't what you think of as a light switch.  It could be a sensor built into the ceiling, it could be a pressure mat on the floor, it could be a fuse in the fuse box.  If you can find the fuse box with a burned out fuse (dead god) you can replace it (the analogy breaks down a little here ( ).  It is even possible that there is no light at all in the room even though you don't understand why there would be a room with no light.  But there is nothing in the room you would have classified as a "light switch" as you have carefully swept the entire wall area with your hands.
      
      Back to the god (light switch).  If you can find the god you can show it to others.  If the god is the sensor in the ceiling you can show others what it does by entering the room with them repeatedly and observing the effect of your action.  If a pressure mat you can do the same.  You can replace the light bulb and/or check voltage in the socket to verify the light fixture works and has power.  You could even trace wires to find out where they go, learning how the electrical system works and why.  There lots of things you can do to figure out what is going on.
      
      What you cannot (reasonably) do is declare that because there is a light bulb in the ceiling that there has to be a light switch somewhere.  You haven't a clue how or why the room came to be, but your extremely limited knowledge of lights is that all the ones you know of require a switch and that is insufficient to declare there has to be a switch.  You don't understand the details of an electrical system, don't know how or why anything works and thus cannot deduce that this specific room must have a switch.
      
      But that is exactly what a believer typically does.  They don't understand how or why the universe behaves the way it does but nevertheless conclude there is a god doing it.  They don't test the actions attributed to that god to verify that the events they see are caused by a god.  They cannot sense the god with any of the 5 senses, only a "feeling" that it is there, but don't test that "feeling" for veracity either. 
      
      Bottom line: if you don't know if there is a light switch, and strongly wish to know you will tear the room apart piece by piece until you know if there is a switch.  You will study electrical systems until you know what might be a switch and what is not.  You will not look into the dark and decide there is a switch, what that switch looks like or what/how it works but instead make conclusions based on all the knowledge you can gather.  And you don't read a treatise written thousands of years ago on what lightning is and decide that you know all about electricity.

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         God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         "If you find the light switch, you can take your friend, hold them by the hand and put their hand on the switch.  Now they found the switch, too."
         
         
         ~ I know many atheists who are unwilling to let anyone guide them to the 'light-switch'.

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            wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            And yet...the vast majority of atheists have been guided.  With an unsupported statement that "God exists and made you".  They never have their hand put on the switch, they never even get to see the light turned on by a god; just an unknown force with never an indication it was done by a god.

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               God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               What you have stated ~ is partially true.

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      Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I've spend my youth in that room, so I studied it and sound the switch to be an illusion. You see you need to walk across the room to get to the switch, but to do so you need to step on the pressure sensitive switch on the floor under the light switch. It's simply an illusion.

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         wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I think I make better gods than you do - I put a motion sensor in the ceiling.  No need to even enter; just open the door and the light comes on.  If you enter and go to sleep, the light goes off to save energy.

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            Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Great Idea. It would take an electrician to come up with and install that. It's perfect because when others enter that think it's magic.

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               wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Magic.  Does that make me a god?  I've been told I'm very spiritual (although I can't imagine why) and that we're either ALL gods or at least have god within us.
               
               Never put one of those in my house (too much trouble), but have replaced the laundry room switch with an occupancy sensor because the light never got turned off.  And rigged up a timer to close the garage door after 10 minutes because the kids would never close it.  That one worked great until we left one day with something in the path of the door - it closed, hit the obstruction and reopened only to repeat 10 minutes later all day long.  Made the neighbors a little nervous.

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      Don Wposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Strawman. Many atheists are not saying "Nothing exists that you can not provide any evidence for"
      
      They are actually saying "It is not reasonable to believe in, live your life by, and try to convince others of, something that you can not provide any evidence for".

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         biblicalivingposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         This is a very strong point. Perhaps Religion must be taken on Faith and the perception of the "light switch" removed. It is a mistake to think that logical tricks, emotional responses and ancient texts prove anything. The universe as well as the human experience is vast and rather indifferent to individual nuances.

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         God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         'They are actually saying "It is not reasonable to believe in, live your life by, and try to convince others of, something that you can not provide any evidence for".'
         
         
         
         The point is what type of evidence are you talking about? Do we need to provide evidence to others to satisfy ourselves that 'something' exists? And ~ most importantly ~ are every type of evidence communicable to others?
         
         
         We all face situations in life where we may know something to be perfectly true, that something exists - but, we may not 'prove' it to others. There are innumerable instances where we face this type of situations.
         
         
         Things like love, hatred, 'may' not be shown and proved to others who are not related to the connecting environments (i.e., they never met the persons involved in the love and hate relationships, before. But, that love and that hatred nevertheless exists, and are known to the persons involved. You can't prove to others things and events that came across or happened to you, and while you were the only witness. But you have the knowledge of those things and events. You may not prove to a child if a cunning adult is cheating and fooling him/her. But you might have the full knowledge of it. The list goes on.

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            Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            So your god is like love. Quetzalcoatl is not anybody's imagination.  He indeed exists.

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               God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               including the 'thing' that loves

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                  Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  So humans are god?

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     - yes. Humans are gods because they are part of God.  Jesus said, Know ye not that ye are gods?
                     Furthermore, The image we are is the invisible aspect of God…Spirit.
                     Love is an aspect of Spirit.
                     ...according to credible sources which make sense to me.

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                        Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        All mammals love, what's your point? If they didn't they wouldn't protect their babies.

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           And love of the mother comes from nature and nature comes from mother nature and mother nature comes from father God, creator of all on an invisible level which slows down on the visible level.
                           But don't focus on these words. It is beyond human intellect.
                           
                           Reality can be perceived with one's third eye of intuition.
                           
                           If you wish to argue with me I will restate it until I am blue in the face... because to me, this is the truth. In my mind there is no doubt about it.
                           
                           Of course, you are free to disagree, but I will never buy your argument, Rad man.
                           
                           
                           Just To Let You Know.

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                              Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              Reality can be perceived with ones senses but still it is only a perception.  Reality is defined.

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                        Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        So your arm is you?
                        We belong to which part of god, which are the other parts?
                        god originated after as?
                        
                        Invisible and image won't go together, we are not transparent either. Spirit is also a concept.
                        
                        What source?

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                           Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                           Spirit is invisible. It is visible as it manifests in the body which it incarnated into, in each of us.
                           
                           We are the image of God... which by nature is invisible... as we are invisible, except that we, as individual portions of Spirit, are "wearing" bodies.
                           
                           Obviously.

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                              Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                              Which are those manifestations?
                              
                              
                              So how do you know what we look like, if we are invisible?

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                                 God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 You need to find a cat lover

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                                    Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    Oh god is cat I thought it was dog.

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                                       God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       you are beautiful

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                                          Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                          Quetzalcoatl is.

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                                             God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                             and your beauty is comparable to?

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                                                Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                The Jesus the Christ.

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                                                   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                   - nothing wrong with this answer.

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                                                      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                                      Except that the question was edited after it was answered and hence the answer to was changed.

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                       ...and what is dog spelled backwards?

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                                 Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                 We are what we appear to be to each other, but underneath we are invisible.
                                 Thoughts are invisible.
                                 Consciousness is is invisible.
                                 Awareness is invisible.
                                 Electromagnetic energy is invisible.
                                 Love is invisible.
                                 
                                 For instance, all emotions are invisible in the beginning, but then they become actions and reveal themselves.

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                                    Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                    Interesting answers but got nothing to do with the questions asked.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   Q. Who is the happiest in a dark room?
   
   A. The atheist who is content to sit there in the dark.
   B. The the theist who searches the walls in the dark for the light switch?
   C. The human secularist while praising his own and other's ability to sit patiently in the dark.
   D. The agnostic who will also sits patiently in the dark, but secretly cheers on the theist who is doing all the hard work by feeling over every inch of wall for that damn light switch.
   
   My answer:
   
   B.

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      wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      You left one out:
      
      E.  The person, atheist, agnostic or theist, who learns how to make light and does so in the room.
      
      My money is on E; they've not only got the light they want but can do it again and again as necessary.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Brilliant! and I'm sure the original poster would agree.
         Peace
         We all choose E !

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            wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            

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         God shetposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         "E.  The person, atheist, agnostic or theist, who learns how to make light and does so in the room."
         
         
         ~ Good luck conducting any experiment inside the lightless room.

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      Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Sure, he may in fact be happier for a while. He thinks he's immortal. Ignorance is bliss.

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   psycheskinnerposted 9 years ago

   You do in fact have to "tolerate" people who see the world differently be they atheist, Satanist, Jedi or gnome worshippers. Because if there is a God who gets to tell people what to do and what to believe, one thing is certain, it isn't you. And whoever that God that might exist might be, they seem to support in free will a lot more than you do given the world of diversity they seem to have created. Even if we are wrong we have the right to be wrong and you have the duty to bother tolerate and respect that.

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   DzyMsLizzyposted 9 years ago

   "But deep in the hearts of atheists lies a secret hatred for God. They can't even tolerate the idea that God might indeed be a possibility."
   
   The very core of that argument is flawed.  One cannot hate something in which one does not believe.  It is simply a non-issue.  Nor are atheists "satan worshippers," since, in the Christian tradition, satan is a 'fallen angel,' or, if you will "the dark side" of any god; they are two sides of the same coin. You will probably find that most atheists do not believe in any devil, either.
   
   It is not a matter of "refusing to believe," or refusing to be educated, or to search.  Indeed, the opposite is often true.  Many atheists were former believers, some of them quite devout.  Their own education, research, and life experiences are what led them to the position of disbelief.
   
   And as psycheskinner pointed out, it is only our individual "job" and place to believe what we want, or to not believe; it is not our "job" to try and convince or force others into our own belief system. 
   We can certainly share our views, if asked,, but otherwise, simply "agree to disagree" and get on with our own lives, as no one elses' choices, (so long as they are inflicting harm on no one), are any of our business.

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   psycheskinnerposted 9 years ago

   My third eye tells me to honor other people's truths because we are brothers and sisters of equal ethical worth.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

   When we are on the astral plane we are invisible. We incarnate into the body at the moment of conception. When the desire is strong enough, we perceive a spark of light which occurs when the ovum and sperm unite. Souls fight to enter the union and the one with the strongest intention makes it. Once inside the new beginning of a human body, the invisible soul directs its development according to the blue print of light which the soul carries with it from lifetime to lifetime. Complete incarnation takes nine months and six years. I have heard our faces do not change much from lifetime to life time.
   We do not remember our previous lifetimes, but tendencies will predominate and explains early genius in children, such as Mozart.
   
   Isn't that interesting?

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      Jomine Joseposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      So what happens to identical twins and conjoined twins? Do they got only one soul?
      Vanishing twins?
      Isn't that interesting?

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