Many people of higher intellect, (including ministers and priests), have speculated that so-called biblical "divine encounters" with God or angels were actually encounters with alien life. What's your opinion?
Personally, I feel the possibility is much more feasible than that of "Sky Fairies" ruling our globe.
Any of it is equally feasable. God, by definition, would be an extra terrestrial, right?
Well what these guys are suggesting is that "god" or "angels" weren't actually what the bible describes them as being but rather "intelligent beings' from another planet or whatever. So by any definition, "God" would most certainly be something "not of this earth", there would still be a major distinction.
Well if this is true and the aliens are coming back for their spawn then that would mean that there are aliens among us.
I don't think alien life is much more a better explanation for many things than is Sky Fairies. I think "divine encounters" is more of a personal mental experience.
A lot of religion is based upon hallucination. Buddha would stare at a blank wall for days (sensory deprivation leads to hallucination). American Indians used peyote. Some have said that we would have no concept of an afterlife if we did not dream, and dreaming is a form of hallucination.
Interesting. But for example take say Ezekiel...his descriptions of his "divine encounters" sound so much like modern descriptions of UFO's that its kinda uncanny...
But I don't think "modern descriptions of UFO's" has anything to do with alien life...
If I had that kind of technology, why would I use "running lights". Does some alien congress require that all UFOs got have their lights turned on for highway safety?
That's a great point. If they have the technology that makes it capable for them to get here, I'm sure they would be able to conceal their appearance. Maybe they "wanted" us to know they were here though. Maybe they wanted to be "our Gods"?
I think if they wanted to be Gods they would be overly overt, and if they wanted to rule by proxy they would be overly covert...
I actually don't know what to think about alien life, but lights in the sky doesn't seem to fit logic, but who knows about alien logic...
True enough...lights in the sky does not proof of alien life make. All I'm speculating is that "alien life and intervention into our history" makes a lot more sense to me than the whole "sky fairy" thing...
Crazy mofo "encounters" does not proof of anything make...
Meh on "sense." The possibility of alien life >> sky fairy...yes...the possibility of alien life explaining anything...meh....
I don't know what "meh" means...I'm assuming something like "pfft!" or "bah humbug!"? Anyway...thanks for the comments. However I wouldn't discard all "encounters" as "mofo". Many very well-respected people have had them...not just your backwater hillbillies...
The god encounter I had was different as there is no form for god, timeless and endless .
The encounter I had with an entity is something I keep asking myself, was that entity and angel or an alien.
At least your asking and not assuming...
Onthewriteside, I still don't know what it was and you have asked a very good question.
Back in biblical times, they had no other explanation for such things, so they attributed them to things "divine". But nowadays, we have been exposed to alternative ideas that makes us wonder. I'm just happy to see people considering all the possibilities instead of automatically attributing them to the realm of whatever belief system they may have been socialized to. Kudos...
I honestly cant figure humans out. Really. You dont wanna believe in God or angels cos you think its dumb or what. Fine, no problemo. But dont go shooting me that bull about how more intellectual and what not it is to believe in little green men from Mars. Gawd!
LOL CJ! I didn't mean to infer that it is more "intellectual" to believe in aliens, I merely meant that I think the possibility of alien life existing is much more probable than that of a God existing. It's no different than my thinking that the "co-accretion theory" for the moon is more probable than the "Big Whack" theory commonly cited.
and what makes one more probable than the other.
I don't see science out there "looking" for God...
This guy gives a bunch of pertinent references, including the Drake equation:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/r … _life.html
If you need more, let me know...
It is a great question and one that would be worth discussing, but as with much of these topics hard to get anywhere with. Always fun to explore and just a valid as any of the other discussions involving this text.
Fat chickens can't fly so that means....angels must need vehicles. I think "wings" was simply a description of being able to fly. There are quantum theories of realms and parallel universes. Beings entering and leaving possibly. Aliens and angels seem to the same beings within ancient and current descriptions. Aliens flying in a vehicle makes a lot more sense to me than growing feathered wings.....or strapping a giant chicken on one's back.
You know, they weren't real precise in their geography back then, either. How do we know that the desert they described wasn't really Nevada, along the Extraterrestrial Highway? Hey --I'm just saying, while we're speculating...
Aliens are merely demon-spawns, nephelim-like creatures. Offspring of fallen angels i.e. Divinities bereaved of their mortal bodies.
Maybe they were hallucinating like the Salem Witches (and other so-called "witches" burned throughout history), who had really just eaten rye bread from a moldy rye crop that followed a rainy season. If people in the 1600's couldn't figure out what was going on, you can imagine how little people in Bible times understood.
True enough Lisa! Maybe they were just tripping!
But isn't an hallucination also something that has been seen? Is a figment of someones imagination only called so because only one person saw it? Even if a vision is drug induced, it's still something seen! A vision by an intelligent man is still a vision of something? Who defines the vision angelic or nephilim, entity or alien? Is that where sentience comes in?
Food for thought.
Jewels that is an interesting view. So when I take drugs and hallucinate, am I only bringing the subconcious in to view?
You bet...and that is the question, isn't it?
I'm pretty narrow-minded on this matter. Dreams, hallucinogens, Schizophrenia, high fever, and reactions to medications can all cause people to see/hear things. My father-in-law "saw" little horses walking around on his bureau when his heart medication mixed with some other medication. Maybe it's narrow-minded, but I lump all these "visions" in the same "brain-being-wacky" category.
Based on my what I see in my own dreams, I can see that most "visions" can be traced directly back to things I've been exposed to, thought about, talked about, etc. in recent times before the dream. It seems pretty clear to me that a lot of thoughts/feelings my brain processes get mixed up and "dumped out" in some wacky form in dreams. Based on that, I can't help but think visions are all about our own, individual, brains and nothing "from outside".
I think you have to ask this: Dreams (which are a natural state; and which, based on my own experience with them doesn't point to anything "spooky" about them) aside, why would "spooky beings" (if they're real then they're a natural phenomenon) choose the mentally ill, the delirious, and the chemically-altered brains to make their appearance? If they're real (and natural), wouldn't it make more sense that they'd show themselves to everyone (including the physical/mentally healthy and non-drugged)? The "altered state" argument could be considered, but, again, how much can anyone trust an "altered state" that comes from illness or drugs known to produce wackiness?
You make a good point. Sometimes there is a qualitative difference between the hallucinations brought on by mental illness, drugs, and pathology and the ones that healthy people have, but sometimes you'd be hard pressed to find any difference between psychotic visions and useful ones. Part of the proof I think is in the usefulness--was real helpful information imparted? Does the vision lead to something else that is substantial? Or does it just evaporate and stay nonsensical?
I do think more people have such experiences while mentally healthy than we think, but it's not like you get all kinds of praise for sharing such experiences. Mostly people make fun of you or discount what you say, so people learn to keep quiet about what they see or perceive if it doesn't 'fit'. Or they find a way to integrate it into creative work where they can be open but attribute it to 'imagination' when actually it's more in the way of direct perception.
onthewriteside, does the Bible make any references to the word, "tripping"? Probably not, but maybe they had another word for it.
I do not know about aliens in the Bible but ladies and gents BP has them right here in my shack and one of them aint half bad. They are responsible for all my PC blow-ups.
I followed Jewels over here. 'Reality' is consensual to an alarming degree. I read something once about a snail that stuck with me. A snail processes information so slowly that if you pick it up and move it five feet away from where it is crawling it won't register the move because of how slow its brain works. So in the snail's experience, it is one place one minute and the next it is somewhere else with no sense of time elapsing and no understanding of how it got somewhere else. That's if a snail was sentient like a person, which, who knows what snails think about?
The point is, we are limited by our perceptual apparatus and then, as if that limitation weren't enough, we narrow our vision down even more by validating only consensual physical reality.
So I don't like to mock these kinds of things. The world is big.
Same here Pam. Have you read Oliver Sacks - The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat? And Rudolph Steiner (I think) talks about the misunderstanding of what imagination is.
Now I'm guessing I could end up with s snails brain when I get older? In my sane state I think how terrible, but from the snails brain I wouldn't know any different.
Jewels, I think I may already have a snail's brain. LOL!
Yes I've heard Oliver Sacks speak but I don't know Steiner, I will have to look him up. I'm very into imagination and the whole misunderstanding about what it really is. Magic actually comes from the same root word, which is all about imagery/emotion, and is kind of a lost art. It's not just pulling rabbits out of hats (stage magic). It's like we swung between all magic to all science, two extremes, and haven't found the middle yet.
The snail metaphor seems to me to apply to alien encounters because if we could screw with a snail's experience so easily surely some other creature could screw with ours, especially if their understanding of time was very different.
Now this conversation could take on massive proportions from the standpoint of consciousness and our minuscule use of our own brains. Are we humans snails in comparison to what's possible - say an 'alien' had the same brain but used 80% of it - what capabilities are we missing? And have we already been manipulated - dodododo!!!
Love imagination - what would we do or be without it. How much creativity has been cut off because some parent or teacher dismissed a child's thoughts as 'just your silly imagination" To the child it is a real expression of something they see - how dare we do that!
I think in Steiners work imagination is not dismissed at all and not seen in the context of something to be dismissed but something to be built upon. (The Steiner schools base their teachings on bringing out a child's creativity through the arts and not so much on rote learning which is in mainstream schools.)
Pam and Jewels, this is on the money. We are only slightly conscious, the subconcious does not even enter in to our daily lives enough to let us know we are just continuously missing what we need to know to follow the inner self, cos the inner self ain't talkin! The high road to the inner self seems to be through meditation, dreams, (in particular dreams that are archetypal in nature or illuminate our individual symbols.)And of course drugs. I also feel that "following the heart" is an art form many need to master.
Oh geez, this is where we see differently ernestshub. I still can't do the drug thing, as it will always limit expansion. Even if it does so in the beginning, it doesn't last long term and can do allot of damage toward the expansion. But I'm sounding opinionated again, sorry. I can see 'angels' and 'aliens' without the weed, I suppose some will do it differently.
Not so much the weed alone, but also the psycho active drugs like real LSD, MDA, MMDA etc etc. Many provide long lasting insights in to self in my opinion. i guess we disagree on something. cool, room for more learning.
Absolutely earnestshub. I look at it in terms of subtle bodies more than the physical element. So think of the meridians in TCM (traditional Chinese medicine). There are hundreds of them, some are quite physical to sense, others not. The more meditation someone does the more refined the body becomes, as the process forces a cleaning out of the body as well as mind. One thing that occurs naturally is putting clean things into the body, it happens organically, the body will reject toxins and become more sensitive to them. With subtle bodies, these are being built as a recourse to meditation. They are like non-physical structures that assist with inner vision. The more you do it, the more you see, the more structures are built - not unlike a trampled path because you go there often. The subtle ends up more tangible. It is in these layers that drugs don't help. In fact it's not likely you will get to these subtle layers in the first place. These were the levels of consciousness I was talking about in another thread and I couldn't pass it because there was no room to do it (if you get that!). some levels are not at the normal cognitive level and it's hard to put words to them. Still not sure I've passed it. The more inward you go, the higher you go. And that can't happen if drugs clog the subtler levels.
But having said that, I've no doubt LSD and psycho drugs will have people seeing aliens. And it's not imagined, it's very real. I think I'd also like to be in some form of control as to what I was seeing also. There is some scarey shite out there!
It is a matter of perception at a simple level too Jewels. Drug=bad. Not so, drugs cause natural uptake of existing chemicals by crossing the BBB. The body is subject to a wider range of chemical effects than the brain because of the BBB. Food,exercise, emotions, drugs, sunlight, light and dark, meditation all affect brain chemistry.
I would postulate that drugs are urgently needed even more than meditation to quickly lift the world psych to a level above the current rapid self destruction caused by seratonin and dopimine poverty in the world brain today. this poverty is clearly and sadly reflected in what we have done to this point that remains inhumane and violent.
I defy any person with a good level of seratonin to consider hating or going to war with anyone. That is what makes the new drug hate coming from the western countries so far off the mark.
You do make a good point with the depletion of nutrients to the body, and seratonin and dopimine poverty is a major concern - I know myself I could use some happy pills every now and then. I'm such a cautious queen it seems, I'd just be really discerning of what the drug is in this context.
I feel that taking any drug without knowing how it works, what it does chemically, the potential for overdose, what drugs/food do not go together well etc is dangerous even when prescribed.
I have problems with the concept of sanity too. I do not claim to be "sane" it is a measure of standing in a structure that is very dis-functional. Crazy is anything outside someone else's constructs, and too thin a line for me to walk in self knowledge.
Real drug information is available, just scarce. hedweb.com has the best you will find.. unbiased with chemical structure db tests, the lot.
"The Hedonistic Imperative" on the same site is also worth a look if you would like the high IQ view of mankind, animals, nano tech, religion.It is also the most interesting and informative hub on animal rights.Discussions with Prof. Hawkings can be found there as well.
I would say that the issue for me with the psychedelics is the lack of control. It strikes me as something akin to opening a door with sledge hammer instead of a key. Yes, you can open the door that way, but I would ask, is that the best way?
I wouldn't use them for myself, but I know people who have found them useful, they say their experiences with them were positive. I also know people who were totally fried by premature and excessive use of psychedelic drugs.
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