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Individualism vs Atheism and Fundamentalism

  1. JonTutor profile image55
    JonTutorposted 8 years ago

    Last night there was a debate.... this topic "would you marry atheist".... I said... I'm not atheist... I'm "individualist"....  experienced for myself.... this Budhist technique..  http://sakya.org/meditationbeg.html ... relaxes me...also learned simple breathing technique from my Indian boss....both useful for me.

    My question for some atheists here.. who come on religious topics.... Do atheists have a problem with any religious practice?

    My question for very religious folks.... Do you believe other beliefs and practices wrong?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Only the insistence that everyone else needs to join up and if you do not, you are somehow inferior. Apart from that.....

      Knock yourself out. Whatever works for you.

      1. JonTutor profile image55
        JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I'm not gonna insist anyone..... IMO everybody is equal... My belief.... practice whatever makes you peaceful and happy. smile

    2. SparklingJewel profile image77
      SparklingJewelposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Jon,

      If you have read any of my hubs, most are "geared toward" the unity in our diversity across religions, philosophies and belief systems (one of which I believe is being an atheist).

      I basically believe that because each of us is a unique individual, that has had unique experiences, we each have unique needs to be met to follow our path...so how could anyone lovingly ditz anyone's path choices?

      But, of course, I have found what I believe are universal structures that all are to eventually obtain/realize, albeit in their own unique way and time.

    3. marinealways24 profile image61
      marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I believe all "grouped" belief to be wrong. I consider all grouped belief to be a contradiction of absolute individualism. I also believe all belief should be open to debate without arrogance or ego to find true individual belief.

    4. Marisa Wright profile image98
      Marisa Wrightposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I have a problem with religious practice if it is (a) harmful to people's psychological or physical well-being or (b) if its believers are themselves intolerant of other religious beliefs, other spiritualities or the absence of belief.

      Otherwise, most atheists are tolerant of religions that are willing to live and let live.

      1. JonTutor profile image55
        JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Do  you think.... individual experiences / techniques like..... Breathing/Meditation/Yoga..... "harmful" practices?

        1. rcisophie profile image55
          rcisophieposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          One thing you need to have clear - meditation and yoga are not religious techniques. They are religion independent in their essence. The confusion in understandable because usualy we connect them to Budhism and also to Hinduism.
          Buda used and teached meditation as one of the paths to enlightment, in our days there are several new approaches religion free (check De Rose's Yoga). There are too many examples.

          Another thing, meditation as a technic of instrospection and self-awareness is also pressent in Christianity, for example, and in all that as times for pause, prayer and also 'reflection'.

          And why do you put Individualism VS Atheism and Fundamentalism?
          There is a lot of fundamentalism in and outside religion, so...?

    5. Shaul Stein profile image54
      Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      i think we are accountable for everything we knew in our conscience and only each person knows what that is. some need to be taught it is wrong to steal, others know it without being told. everyone seems to have a conscience, some chose to ignore it and act poorly towards others, but they protest if the same thing happens to them.
      i think that if you disregard your conscience long enough it becomes seared and you are able to do all manner of ill will towards anyone or anything at anytime.
      i think believers in God and unbelievers both do this.
      i think that if you believe in God you have no need to toot your horn about it,
      others will see your behavior and tell you they see Him in you.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Nice religious brainwashing ! big_smile  Very becoming!

        1. Shaul Stein profile image54
          Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          i am sorry, can you elaborate on that for me please?
          is was talking ones conscience.
          did i say something wrong?

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Good and Evil is the main 'scenario' of all religions. All the rules are based in those 2 concepts.People are  driven to behave 'good ' just as you say, for people 2 c God in them. I think that's a misconcept due to religious brainwashing. Sorry It's my believe. I would explain at large, but I don't have the patience.

  2. Misha profile image77
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Oh, three isms in one title. You are killing me Jon smile

    1. JonTutor profile image55
      JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I try. lol

      1. Misha profile image77
        Mishaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        LOL

        As for your question - i don't really care, as long as you don't shove it down my throat or otherwise try to interfere with my life. smile

        1. JonTutor profile image55
          JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I don't..... but for my life.... my choice to seek.... I'm still exploring. smile

  3. Misha profile image77
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    I know you don't. I did not really mean you personally. smile

    1. JonTutor profile image55
      JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks.... I just wanna know....Even my step dad (atheist) is cool.... only my conservative catholic folks have issues... learning meditation... I'm not converting. smile

  4. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 8 years ago

    Of course I believe some other religious teachings are wrong, and even a few religious practices. That being said, other people believe I am wrong in my religious beliefs and practices too, and they are just as entitled to their beliefs as I am to mine. As long as we disagree in the right way and for the right reasons, I can get along.

    As for atheists having a problem with religion, I unfortunately know too many who consider anyone else following or otherwise expressing their religion in their presence as shoving religion down their throats. I know some people who are very uncomfortable if they see me wearing a cross or taking a brief moment to silently give thanks before I eat. I saw some people at a ball game react with offense when they saw a player make the Sign of the Cross before going up to bat. And I had the misfortune of encountering atheists who very openly look down their noses at religious people and refuse to stop when their arrogance is pointed out to them.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      LOL

      I must admit I have started taking offense to public statements of an irrational beliefs system. Particularly christian and muslim irrational belief systems.

      Mainly because I have read the bible - and I know what it says about unbelievers.

      I assume you have also?

      I take offense at people calling me a fool for not believing.

      Wouldn't you?

      Of course - that could just be arrogance on my part. wink

      I mean - I cannot even say I do not have a belief without people insisting that I do.

      Gets a little irritating after the ten thousandth person says - "oh - that is the same as me believing there is a god. You did not think about it and make a decision - you just believe - the same as me." (see above)

      1. James Agbogun profile image60
        James Agbogunposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        You must know that god is not God.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Like I said - get's a little irritating being told what I "must know." wink

          1. marinealways24 profile image61
            marinealways24posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            You must be saved. lol

  5. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 8 years ago

    Hi Jon. I think that irrational and/or intolerant attitudes are  found in every quarter--religious (all of them), 'spiritual' (religion-lite), atheist, and individualist--whatever a person calls him or herself, we can all be jerks if we want to, and we can all put our brains on hold if we want to.

    So much of what is happening in the world today is IMO the result of a refusal to live and let live, and the rest of it is just bad manners. The internet has given people the idea that bullying others intellectually by calling them names and finishing their thoughts for them (as in, well, if you think THAT then you also think THIS) is admirable. It's not.

    I consider myself an agnostic person with faith in what I don't know. The fruits of knowledge are not always positive. I use religious practices when they seem practical. Meditation strikes me as a very practical religious practice, so why shouldn't I use it? It's useful! Private ritual (some would call it magic) is also sometimes useful so I do use it. What I have a great distaste for are people who want to start a war or metaphysics or religious dogma. What a waste.

    If a religion requires me to park my brain at the door, I'm not interested.

  6. phonereversetrace profile image55
    phonereversetraceposted 8 years ago

    All beliefs are illusions; the truth of reality, or "God," cannot be pigeonholed into a belief or mental thought construct.

    It simply cannot be comprehended by the mind; it can only be experienced.

  7. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 8 years ago

    ValerieF wrote
    And I had the misfortune of encountering atheists who very openly look down their noses at religious people and refuse to stop when their arrogance is pointed out to them.

    And I wonder why  ?... I think religious people sometimes are very enervating, to say the least big_smile

  8. Valerie F profile image61
    Valerie Fposted 8 years ago

    And it gets irritating having my belief system judged as irrational when, for all you know, my belief system and reasons for subscribing to it are perfectly rational and grounded in reason and valid logic. Just because we disagree on the premises doesn't make atheism or religion any more or less rational.

    I have read the Bible, and there's that rule about doing unto others in there. If you don't like that the Bible calls you a fool for believing in your heart there is no God, don't turn and call someone the same exact thing for believing there is one.

    1. Marisa Wright profile image98
      Marisa Wrightposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Valerie, Mark didn't say he minded about the Bible calling him a fool.  It's the religious people here in the forums or in real life who call him a fool, that he objects to.

      As you've read the Bible, you'll know that not everything in it can be taken literally, because it contradicts itself in hundreds of places.  There is no logic in picking and choosing the bits you want to believe.

      I respect your right to choose to believe, but you have no rigth to call anyone a fool for not believing.  And very often, atheists are reacting to that implication. 

      I do notice that, especially on these forums, some people (are you listening Mark?) have become so sensitised by the religious extremists that they over-react to milder statements.  Which is a shame, IMO.

      1. ElElyone profile image56
        ElElyoneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        "As you've read the Bible, you'll know that not everything in it can be taken literally, because it contradicts itself in hundreds of places.  There is no logic in picking and choosing the bits you want to believe."

        Please find 3 or 5 and post them here and then we shall address the other "hundreds" one at a time.

        I mean, if you are going to put that kind of an absolute statement here then at least have some references please. big_smile


        "There is no logic in picking and choosing the bits you want to believe."

        Well yes, picking and choosing from the truth is NOT a good idea for anything in life. Truth is not a buffet.

        It might be easier to just write a hub and include the "hundreds of contradictions" in it. smile

    2. profile image0
      Leta Sposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Hubpages suffers from a lack of, I'd say, verbally sophisticated and non-fundamental philosophically religious people.  Or, at least they aren't much for posting in the religion forums, wink.  That's one reason I think this post of Jon's (non-cynical and asking a legitimate question) is a good one, as is yours (eloquent and well put).

      Not everybody is completely cynical about religion...even if the 'religionists' have made many that way (myself somewhat included).  And you know how it was with the cool kids in high school...they had a tendency to dominate certain spheres of influence.  Might as well not try out for certain activities, because there is no use in it anyway.

      Hubpage religion forums also seems to attract a lot of nuts--and of course these (though they, too, as long as they are not infringing on others' rights, have the right to their beliefs) are not the same as those who go about practicing and speaking about spirituality and/or their chosen religion in a rational and intelligent way.  Some here know that...just wanted to say it.

      1. rcisophie profile image55
        rcisophieposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Hubpages suffers from a lack of, I'd say, verbally sophisticated and non-fundamental philosophically religious people.  Or, at least they aren't much for posting in the religion forums, wink.  That's one reason I think this post of Jon's (non-cynical and asking a legitimate question) is a good one, as is yours (eloquent and well put).

          Would it be possible to separate things? One thing is Philosophy and other is Religion and people are always using Philosophy in a lot of senses that just don't match with it's meaning.
          As for me... for what I've seen... to post a comment in the religious forums its probably a waste of time. It seems a titanic effort, I didn't saw any reasonable discussing until now. LOL

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image79
          Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I cant even separate eggs properly lol

        2. profile image0
          Leta Sposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Agreed.  lol  And agreed that fundamentalism can be secular, haha, wink.

          Of course the study of philosophy and religion are two different things...  They do overlap, however, such as in the case of John O'Donahue, a favorite philosopher/poet (a good one for aesthetics, I might add, too)...  Anyway, I was using the term 'philosophically' in the sense that someone would think a little deeper than just the same old bilge.

          1. JonTutor profile image55
            JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            @Lita/Sophie Very intuitive responses. smile

    3. Misha profile image77
      Mishaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Looks like you having it vice versa. Bible calls Mark fool, so its followers should not be surprised to be called fools in return, by their own rules. smile

      1. ElElyone profile image56
        ElElyoneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        And what rules are those?

        1. Misha profile image77
          Mishaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          Mark already noted your poor command of English. Now we see you can't even follow a simple conversation flow. Poor deity... sad

          1. ElElyone profile image56
            ElElyoneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I did NOT ask you the question for my benefit.

            So what are they now?

            1. Misha profile image77
              Mishaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Try to read what I quoted originally. I know it is hard for you to understand, but try, your question was answered before you asked it. lol

            2. Eaglekiwi profile image79
              Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Why dont you write a hub about what you know?

    4. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I suggest you buy a decent dictionary and look up the words "rational" and "logical."

      And yes - sorry, believing in god is not in any way rational, logical, or a reasoned position.



      Yes indeed - I am doing exactly what you people have asked me to.

      Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

      So. For the last 1500 years, people who choose your irrational belief system have been calling people fools for not believing.

      I believe that would classify as asking people to do unto you as you have been doing unto them? Or am I being illogical in making that conclusion?

      Fortunately our society has now reached the point where I am able to do unto you as you would have me without fear of being burned at the stake, imprisoned or otherwise punished.

      Too bad huh. bet you wish the good old days were back when atheists and witches could be properly dealt with. wink

      1. ElElyone profile image56
        ElElyoneposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        It is NOT people calling one a "FOOL" if they say that God does NOT exist....it is God saying that....they just quote His words.....so take it up with Him.

        If I quoted someone who said "only a jack ass plays on the freeway with his children" and then you did it.....and I called you a jack ass......ummmmm?????

        Someone who does not believe in God but says He exists is NOT called a FOOL....

        it is the FOOL who says He does NOT exist AT ALL

        1. Eaglekiwi profile image79
          Eaglekiwiposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          It is NOT people calling one a "FOOL" if they say that God does NOT exist....it is God saying that....they just quote His words.....so take it up with Him.

          If I quoted someone who said "only a jack ass plays on the freeway with his children" and then you did it.....and I called you a jack ass......ummmmm?????

          Someone who does not believe in God but says He exists is NOT called a FOOL....

          it is the FOOL who says He does NOT exist AT ALL

          Ut oh ,anyone need anything from the store lol

  • earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    It was done on websites years ago, and many more have followed smile

  • Eaglekiwi profile image79
    Eaglekiwiposted 8 years ago

    Im kidding,yes good idea smile

  • ElElyone profile image56
    ElElyoneposted 8 years ago

    See there Mikhail...someone quoted it for you twice. big_smile

  • ElElyone profile image56
    ElElyoneposted 8 years ago

    Maybe a forum asking the question:

    "How far is up?"

  • earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    So true Lita, the original question does not seem to have been addressed.

    1. JonTutor profile image55
      JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Bang on target.... Mark Knowles addressed atheist part satisfactorily ... but "fundamentalists" never gonna consider themselves fundamentalists.... even if they consider all views contradicting there particular religious views "wrong". lol

  • earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    Like Paraglider I like the word "bilge" smile

    1. JonTutor profile image55
      JonTutorposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      You lost me. smile

  • Shaul Stein profile image54
    Shaul Steinposted 8 years ago

    well do you think to listen to your conscience is a good idea?

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        I only listen 2 logic.  Concience as it comes with a lot of preconcepts since we are babies, I don't consider reliable.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image54
        Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        oh ok, and logic, is that something that you obey after you have concluded something to be logical?
        have you sometimes come to a logical conclusion and then say 3 years later found a better logic and did that as long as the new found logic was more logical than what you previously thought to be the most logical thought on that particular subject?
        but while you were doing the older logical thing, you thought you had reached the end of the logic on the matter and would not change your mind?
        do you think that as one grows that they can gain more logic and or better logical reasons for what they do as time goes on.
        so if you had some logic and i had some logic on the same matter and we compared them, would one have more logic than the other and be able to teach them?

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            No. Each individual experience is unique .

          1. Shaul Stein profile image54
            Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            what is ultimate logic then?

            1. Ron Montgomery profile image60
              Ron Montgomeryposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Hey Artist, welcome back.

            2. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                It's your ultimate individual answer to your individual question.
              I have 2 go now. Nice 2 meet you! cu later

              1. Shaul Stein profile image54
                Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                oh, so you listen to your own logic, individual logic?
                not logic as in the most logical reasoning of 2 different thoughts?
                so if 2 people talk logically, can they come to a more logical conclusion?
                therefore making the individual logic, less logical as it stands alone?
                so they come closer to the ultimate logic on the matter being discussed?

                1. tantrum profile image60
                  tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                    If I'm talking of individual logic, is logic for my personal doings and welfare. If I'm having a dialogue with someone else , that's another matter. Why would we want or have to arrive at the same conclusion? I have my logic, the other person has his. You have another way of seeing things, so? I'm using my logic, you're using your concience I suppose. We will never agree. Who's right and who's wrong ? Can you answer that question? I don't think so. And that's what life is about, in an abstract way. If you want to get your feelings involved, that's your choice, not mine.

  • Shaul Stein profile image54
    Shaul Steinposted 8 years ago

    do you think it is logical to be patient and explain to others when they ask you for reasons why you believe the way you do?
    i mean, you say you listen only to logic, is this logical not to be patient?

  • Shaul Stein profile image54
    Shaul Steinposted 8 years ago

    so if i am teaching a student how to do something and he claims to have a logical reason why my teaching is not as good as his logic and then i show him to be wrong with an experiment in front of class.
    would i not be found to have more logic than the student?
    could my logic not be greater than his and he then learn?
    thus making his logic, illogical?

  • dc2004 profile image60
    dc2004posted 8 years ago

    The original post,
    "My question for very religious folks....Do you believe other beliefs and practices wrong?"
    While I don't consider myself very religious I do consider myself very Christian.  I believe other beliefs and practices wrong, I believe my belief system to be right that's why I believe it.  The only reason I answered this question is because you asked it, I'm embarrassed when Christians try to push their beliefs "down others throats", this is not how Jesus Christ did it.

  • Shaul Stein profile image54
    Shaul Steinposted 8 years ago

    ok then, can one person have a greater logical understanding of something and teach the other person his logic if the person will listen to reason beyond his own?

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        Every person have to learn by his own. Nobody has a greater understanding than other. That's what brings all the misunderstanding among people. Believing you have the truth. I can't teach you anything, I can only show you several ways to achieve what you want. And that, if I think I know more than you.Then you'll have to do the choice.

      1. Shaul Stein profile image54
        Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        so does the master concert pianist, who also can play jazz, rock, blues and anything else on the piano.
        does he not have a greater understanding of the piano?
        could the others not learn from him if they wanted to know all that he did?
        or does learning not come into the picture anymore for you?
        because you have your own logic?

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          You're not making sense. I'm talking abstract here. What a piano player have to do with all we were talking about? You go to art  school to learn piano. You don't need your concience to go there right? Or learning piano is a matter of morals? Think big!

  • Shaul Stein profile image54
    Shaul Steinposted 8 years ago

    i was just wondering if people who think like you and listen only to their logic, can and do they learn from others and ever say something like "hey thanks for taking the time to teach me that man"

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        nobody ever taught me the logic of life. That, I thank myself for. Other teachings I always thank.But they are only teachings for daily life in this planet, which I don't consider much

      1. earnestshub profile image86
        earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        OK, but you based your beliefs on what? Surely, it is partly what you have read and heard and seen from others that helped you form your beliefs??

      2. Shaul Stein profile image54
        Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

        so if you are taught things for daily life on this planet, do you think those who taught you them are using logic or just making it up?

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          /50 % use their concience and their society preconcepts, 30% makes it up, 15 % use some kind of logic and 5 % thinks like I do. That doesn't mean we're right. It's only a way of seeing things

          1. earnestshub profile image86
            earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Well said. I often wonder what people really think deep down.Thoughts like " If I believe what I am saying, why do I sell it so hard?" and other stuff I don't like to hear about myself! smile

    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I was just wondering if people who think they have something to teach, when they do not, ever realize that they have been teaching nonsense?

      I also wonder if they ever stop and say, "wow, thanks for pointing that out. And thanks for explaining the difference between logical reasoning and taking something on faith and attempting to twist a logical argument to suit after the fact." wink

  • earnestshub profile image86
    earnestshubposted 8 years ago

    As all our learning comes from others anyway, I see no problem in learning that I am wrong. I know that I wasn't the only one! smile

  • tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 8 years ago

    No. I don't believe in anything that has to do with human beliefs

    1. Shaul Stein profile image54
      Shaul Steinposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      ok, so if you have beliefs, and you are human, what are they and what are they based on?
      how did you come to the conclusions that caused you to believe them?
      define your logic please.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          I don't think like a human. I think beyond. Difficult 2 explain as it's all abstract thinking.

  • tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 8 years ago

    And I can b a joker as well! . Mostly what I do in a Forum cool

    1. earnestshub profile image86
      earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I think that is fine! I always enjoy your thoughts anyway. smile

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         

        cool   Cool ,Cool. earnest! I wrote a limerik about you. Did u like it ? I's somewhre in the limeriks

        1. earnestshub profile image86
          earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          It's bloody marvelous! I loved it so much I wrote one back to you! smile

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              Where is it?? !!

            1. earnestshub profile image86
              earnestshubposted 8 years agoin reply to this

              It's there honest!

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