Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
But thats just my take on it all
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
That's right it is just your take on it. Your explanations as to how it all works still includes a god that does not exist, with only a self contradictory book that you quote selectively and only want to know about one half of!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So says you
  lol
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi earnesthub I think by now you know I have no reason to lie to you but god does exist ,I found him and I hope you do as well .
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
I really need some sleep now when I can laugh with earnest, I know that is true!
just kidding of course, but really nite all
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Different terminology! The literal belief in a god or trinity of the bible is psychologically naive to the max, and is what I disagree with.
I could say I have "found my way" if that's god.
Ramming a god that is insane down my throat does not do it for me. You are not doing that, and as you do not seem to have such a narrow view there is room to meet.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will never ram god down anyone's throat , not my style and I get irritated as well when threatened that if I don't follow this one or that one I am doomed.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I have seen you take up the good fight against this sort of thinking.
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
This is in response to a dialect between Atomswifey and me. I know it's like a hub, I apologize...

You said: First, why is it you believe that god in creating the universe did so out of a "need"? If you were to suppose lets say He did so out of "desire" a "want" than He would then not have changed at all.
In your argument you left no reason whatsoever to that as a possibility.

I say: In this context, “need” for me if akin to a “desire” or “want” You're splitting hairs over the terminology. You missed the point, though. If he's eternal and unchanging, then he would have been in existence for all of eternity, which the universe HAS NOT (been in existence for all of eternity). So, somewhere God changed, and suddenly created the universe (as you purport). If he's unchanging, the universe would have always been there. So, either the universe has always existed (is eternal) or God changed to suddenly create the universe. You can't have it both ways.

You said: additionally, "the burden of proof" is NOT on the believers. There is no burden to prove He exists because it is by FAITH that we believe. It is by faith we called on to believe. The "proof" you seek in order for YOU to believe, you already have known. It is as God stated in Romans, since the beginning you have known God is. it is really the indoctrination of sin which deludes you to Him as of now. It is your lack of faith which demonstrates exactly what God said it would.

I say: YES IT IS! It is your burden because there are people who don't have faith, like myself and plenty others. There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be a shred of physical evidence to support his existence. I do not believe in any Gods for the same reason I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. Of course I cannot prove without a certainty of a doubt he does not exist. It's not up to me to prove he does not exist, though. I'm not the one saying he does without any proof whatsoever except an intangible “feeling” such as “faith”.

You say: You give the example of the pink unicorn you are trying to feed etc. But there you are attaching a physical object to being that of God. He is not nor will He ever be our pink unicorn in which we have to feed.
In other words, God is not someone we have to make you believe in, in order for Him to be/exist.
The unicorn however you gave analogy to would have to exist in order for you to have the need to feed it as well as provide proof for in order to get someone else to buy the food for it.

I say: You state my unicorn example doesn't fit because it has none of the qualities you purport to be true about your God. Fine, take out the part about him needing to eat and being hungry. Add that I SAY he's eternal, I SAY she has all the qualities of your God. Just as you SAY God has all these qualities. And, I believe it with all my heart because I have “faith” she exists. I tell you she's not physical, either. She's created an afterlife called “Unicornocopia” and if you don't follow Her rules, you will go to “Unihell”. That's what I SAY. Just like you SAY God has these attributes. It is certainly up to me to prove She exists because I am trying to tell you you are going to Unihell if you don't accept Her and ask for forgiveness of your sins. Aint no way you're buying that one. I know you're not buying it now. I'm pretty sure you'd want some solid evidence of Her existence if I'm making these claims. The burden of proof is certainly upon me, the one making the preposterous claim.

You say: As far as your connection between us believing and losing nothing if He does not exist, and your "losses", let me ask you this:
Are your "losses" going to matter one single bit if you are right? How will they really be "losses" if it all ends as you as you say? You will be gone, zip, natta, no more *pift*, so those losses you describe will not really be losses as you will not suffer any penalty or disadvantage as a result of, as you cannot, if what you believe is true.

However, you do suffer great losses, if I or rather we, or rather still, God is right and you do not begin to open your heart to Him and believe.

I say: UMMM, plenty of losses while I'm here on Earth. For one, I'd have to give up my love of science, experimentation, and rational thought. I'd have to set that all aside to be able to have this blind faith. This is not who I am. I'd be untrue to my own beliefs. Not to mention, I'd feel compelled to attend church (you do, doncha?) and I'd waste 1000s of hours sitting in pews when I could be out in the world (as I am now) playing with my beautiful children and husband. And, there's the financial part, yes, churches do ask for money. Been there, by the way, done that. It's not cheap, either. I'd have to worry about all the “sinners” around me, and hope they were saved before they left this Earth. How stressful. I'd need to spend time attempting feebly to spread the word of God and getting judged by all the athiests and agnostics. Need I go on? I could.

You say: How can we "know" we are serving the right god? Faith! we know The one true GOD through it, through seeing all He created and all that is to be. We do not give reflection to any other god. My God says, Thou shalt have NO other gods before me.

I say: Not cutting the mustard AT ALL. No part of me accepts the argument that God says so in the Bible, so it's true. Way too many inconsistencies in that piece of literature, and literature is what it is. You might consider that you're the one taking the gamble here. Mohit would say so. What if, just what if, you really don't have faith in the correct God? What if your Bible is wrong? Bummer, shoulda picked Allah because this is the RIGHT God and His punishment is THE most severe of all. Let me venture to say you'd be praising another God altogether if you were born elsewhere. I believe in no God, as you know, but it's even offensive to me to think you believe yours is the only one. You're gambling big time, if you ask me.

You say: Further, Jesus did not say to have wreakless abandon in our faith and lack knowledge neither common sense when concerning our health and or the seeking of help when concerning it. Have there been people who have done that? Yes. But does it mean that all do or have to or that the Bible teaches on that sort of mentality? NO! And if you go to the scripture concerning "you shall trample on snakes..." That scripture in no way means we are to go out in the desert, find a snake and step on it! Please.

I say: Depends upon interpretation. Obviously it's causing harm if even ONE person has foregone medicine for prayer. Too bad the Bible is so open to interpretation, huh?

Finally, Atomswifey, I reread some of the posts I wrote you earlier and I feel I owe you an apology. I am sorry, as I was taken aback by how rude I was being to you. Definitely not the way to accomplish anything. My apologies.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I really want some religionist to address this. I've grown weary of Shiloh's Love Shack...
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Becca's Blogposted 15 years ago
Ok I personally do not want to hang out with a bunch of sexually repressed, bigoted, creationist, politically to the right folks anyway. You can avoid them in Indiana( if you know how to hide) .So is hell in the South somewhere? Is it like a twilight zone thing? Someone's heaven is another person's hell? Is it worse than having teenagers?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
C'mon Becca, you know nothing is worse than having teenagers!
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Becca's Blogposted 15 years ago
True! But God is Just . Someday they will have teenagers. lol
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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friskeyperposted 15 years ago
this is the most absurd review I have ever read Does God send people to hell ? Of course not. He gives them two choices to make a right choice and a wrong choice. For example.
I have a road map and want to go somewhere I look at the map and see three different routes. I choose one and reach my destination. Now did the person who made this road map send me that way NO ! I chose the way to go. The person who made the road map just gave me more than one choice. DITTO GOD
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
And you chose an invisible completely illogical deity because you were indoctrinated in to it and have never had an original thought since!

RULE: "Anyone who does not believe in and accept Jesus Christ in their lifetime will spend eternity in Hell."

Nice little loser! Who are you trying to frighten, the tooth fairy?
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My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years ago
Would anyone agree that if someone rejects love, they have accepted the torment that comes with said rejection?

No matter where they physically exist?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, wouldn't agree. No problem rejecting something I don't love and have no desire to experience. No torture here.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I should say 'relieve'
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The "something" here in question IS love.
  Not "something else"
  
  It was not asked "if you reject something you do not love are you tortured by it?"
  Many people do reject love, very sad. They are afraid of love.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What kind of love? And from whom?
  
  Furthermore, I can reject love all I want, but my rejection will never change the existence of that love. If someone loves me, there's nothing I can do to make them stop loving me. If they stop loving me, it's because of their own reasons. And if they love me, they would never express that love with an act of hate.
  
  If I had a son who rejected my love, and rejected every kind thing I ever wanted to do for him, I would still love him, and I would never add to his troubles by punishing him for his rejection. I would always be there for him no matter what he did.
  
  When a person dies, according to Christianity, their free will is no longer applicable. Their life is over. Where they go after that point is not in their hands. Wouldn't you agree?
  
  If I were that God, I wouldn't send anyone to Hell after their life was over. Nothing a person did or believed in their lifetime would be bad enough for me to send them to burn for eternity. I don't know where I would send them, but I know for certain it wouldn't be Hell. Now, if I can have enough compassion for people to save them regardless of their choices and behavior, certainly a God whose love and compassion is greater than mine can also save them.
  
  It doesn't matter what God's reasons are for making Hell and sending people there. It only matters that He does send them there when it is fully in HIs power not to.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What kind of love?
  What kind is there you you?
  Do you love? Have love?
  
  Right, real love cannot be changed. Whatever it does, it does with love.
  Often not understood, but that does not change that it is love.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You and I aren't even in the same conversation.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Glad it's not just me. Sheeeeessshhhh.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your son in the scenario here has punished himself by rejecting your love and this would torment him eventually......and perhaps lead him back to your love.
  
  And if you ask what kind of love?
  And I ask what kind is there to you?
  Is that not a fair question to ask of you?
  How do I know what you think love is?
  Do you have love?
  If so, is there anything you cannot stand?
  Anything you will not tolerate?
  Even though you have love?
  
  What kind of love?
  The kind that has boundaries within love.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about Hell. That is, Hell in the afterlife. Is that what you're talking about? I can't tell.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You say hell.....I say torment.
  One without love is tormented right here and now and will continue to be no matter what the location in this life or the afterlife.
  To reject love is to live in fear and torment.
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  all you need is love isn't that how the song goes
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love does have truth and boundaries too.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Let me just ask you point blank. Are you a Christian who believes in Heaven and Hell in the afterlife? If you answer this question it'll be very helpful to me. Of course you might prefer to remain mysterious and enigmatic. Sounds like fear of transparency to me.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I believe in love in it's purest form and I do not give it a title.
  Fear has no place in my life !
  
  I do not call myself anything, I accept no label or title or rank.
  
  I believe that rejecting love is tormenting.
  
  If you are receiving love then you are in a state of something beyond utter bliss.
  
  If you do not want love, then you are in a place of torment.
  
  Again, you can have either experience right here on the earth, no need to wait to "GO ANY PLACE"
  
  You do not need to go any place to experience life either, it's right here and now.
  
  Love is a celestial realm that can be had right now.
  Torment is not.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You almost answered my question, but not quite. So, you're not a Christian, ok. So, you believe in Heaven (love) and Hell (torment) here in this present life, ok. You're almost there. You said there's no need to wait to go anyplace, but I'm still not clear about what you believe about Heaven and Hell in the afterlife. Do you believe these two places exist?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The afterlife as it were changes nothing.
  
  Death changes nothing.
  
  Living and being in love is not changed by death.
  
  Rejection of love is not changed by death.
  
  In the words of Maximus in the film Gladiator.
  
  "Brothers !!!...what we do in life !!!.......((((((((((ECHO'S!!!!)))))))) in eternity!!!!"
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You must think that answering my question directly would be to box yourself in. What are you afraid of? Why won't you answer me? If you call this a direct answer, then I must be dumb or something, because I can't make sense of it. Maybe dumb it down for me a little? Speak in my language? Please?
  
  Do you believe in Heaven and Hell in the afterlife?
  
  Do you need me to rephrase it? Is it clear what I'm asking? Or do you just not wish to talk about the thread topic? If so, just say so. I'm cool with that.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Heaven and Hell as you insist on calling them...are NOT a "place"
  
  They are a realm.....Can be experienced in this life and death will not change where you are after that.
  
  You chose here and now, love or torment and it just keeps on echoing )))))))))))
  
  Is this to hard to understand?
  
  Hell and Love have like 4 different words to describe them anyhow.
  
  My question for you is.
  What do you pick in the right here and now?
  Or are you waiting like the Christians to GO some place?
  Pick love now or pick torment now.
  
  I believe whatever you chose now will be your "experience" after death.
  
  You are trying to "figure this out" with your natural mind, the mind of this realm, I do not think in this realm or in this dimension.
  
  If you insist on talking about heaven, there are at least 10 realms of heaven.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well...I'm not in torment. I know that for sure. Does that help answer your question?
  
  Also, no, I am not a Christian.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK....and are you waiting to go some place?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  no
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kirstenblogposted 15 years ago
This post seems like quite a hot topic!

It made me think of a saying (of sorts) I was told once.

Hell is a very large room with a very large bowl of soup and a large spoon, everyone is trying to use the spoon and get at the soup for themselves in front of the others and everyone starves.

Heaven is a very large room with a very large bowl of soup and a large spoon, everyone is working together to use the large spoon to serve up the soup and everyone shares equally, everyone is well fed.

I loved this thought as it displays the reason for the teachings of christ (or any other respected spiritual leader). Without a real understanding of these teachings we condemn ourselves to a hellish existence that is inescapable and God need not be anything more then a loving God who wants us to learn the importance of treating others with love as we are all connected, when we hurt another or push them aside we are really hurting ourselves. This seems to fit in with the idea of God being the shepherd who will not allow even one of his flock to be lost. What a beautiful plan of creation.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you like to be a sheep ?
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  kirstenblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Having had a goat farm as a kid I think I would prefer to associate myself as a goat in a flock of goats!
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
HARK! Oh, wherefore art thou love?
Love is love, love is lovely, oh, lovely love. Opposite of hate, you crazy WILD love, you. Love, exciting and new.... Come aboard, we're expecting you...

Sorry, couldn't resist Shiyloh. Your Love should have a sense of humor though, right?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love is not the opposite of hate.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just a joke... I completely agree it's not the opposite of hate. Sense of humor? Anywhere?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I love humor, pure humor though, not the nasty kind.
  I thought you said hate was the opposite on purpose because you believe that.
  So what is the opposite of love?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Conditional love.
  
  Do as I say or....
  
  Follow the rules or....
  
  Love with threats.
  
  I love you so much I am going to hurt you.....
  
  I love you so much I am going to attack your ideals.....
  
  I love you so much I am going to give you free will, but so help me, if you do not do as I say...........
  
  You Know the type.
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  kirstenblogposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I thought I would pitch in my 2 cents worth.
  I would have said the opposite of love is indifference, not really giving a toss one way or the other about a person.
  
  Hate is not something I can get my head around and understand even tho there are a few things I would say I hate lol.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I assume you love someone sir.
  Does that love have any boundaries?
  Not threats, boundaries?
  No need to harm them, just love with boundaries that cannot be broken.
  Boundaries need not attack, they are a fence around love.
  If someone tries to break the boundaries, love says no! Holds the fence in place.
  Love can have boundaries that honor freewill, but without allowing freewill to be used to break the boundaries of love.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not caring at all, complete indifference, apathy. What is your purpose here? Trying to convice us to believe in a God by equating him with love? Using arguments about "Love" to convince us God and Love are the same? Why won't you answer this question? I've asked it before. I anwer your questions...
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fear is the opposite of love. If I might explain why.
  Love has ZERO fear. They cannot exist together.
  Fear comes from darkness and no understanding of light and life.
  
  Fear leads to all the things you mentioned.
  I am to afraid to care.
  I am apathetic because of the fear of caring.
  I am indifferent because I am afraid to be involved.
  I am afraid to love and be transparent.
  
  I use love instead of God, if I have a God, it is love.
  Why can't I call my God....LOVE?
  Why is this bothering the living patience out of so many people?
  Why are you trying to shove me into a box?
  Love is not a box!
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, it's bothering me because this is a thread about a very specific topic, and you are being very unclear about your stance concerning that topic. I can't tell how you fit in to this debate. You're just kindof floating off to the side in your own little world, speaking your own language, and not making any sense. Why don't you drop the charade? Come join the humans?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Charade?
  Nope....I am being VERY real here....make no mistake.
  
  If you insist on using hell, fine.
  Is not that a place of torment too?
  Again, I do not think you are hearing what love is.
  It is not tormenting, rejecting love is very tormenting and fearful.
  Like as in your son feeling that way for rejecting you.
  If he stops the rejecting, the torment goes away and he feels love.
  
  My son has been rejecting at times, but admitted he did not like it at all.
  Then he came around and liked love better.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What are you, a love guru? Do you think I don't already know what love is without you defining it for me? I just want you to state your position on the topic of this thread. Can you do that?
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Guru? No.
  People are constantly trying to put a label on me.
  They have used prophet too. Tried to cram me into a box.
  Love is not a box.
  
  I am none of these....I need nor want a title.
  
  I stated my position above.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fear and love are both chemical reactions in the brain. Neurotransmitters, hypothalamus and amygdala activity. Two chemical reactions cannot be opposite. The opposite of love is not having those very chemical reactions...
  
  God does not equal love as God does not exist.
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  Pearldiverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know fear to be a spirit.
  If yielded to, it does have a chemical reaction, like anger or love or anxiety, in the body like anything else that is above the physical realm and is reacted or responded to.
  The physical realm is merely a mirror of the spiritual or unseen realms.
  Anytime the spirit realm moves upon the physical realm you we see it with the naked eye many times, or feel it in the body.
  You are only speaking of the physical realm of love.
  That is the lowest level.
  Above all things, love is greatest and it has many forms.
  
  I do not know why you insist on giving love a title....but that's your thing.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aren't you giving it a title?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and yet it is the brain that recognizes love, and manipulation of the chemical uptake changes this perception radically.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The brain, the body, the nerves etc....all the physicalness of mankind is for sure going to respond to the soul and spiritual realms.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would rather say respond to self and all that encompasses.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, it is "my thing". The rest, well, so YOU say. Not buying it. I have love aplenty, I'm not tortured (as you say), so I'm gonna carry along my path of nonbelief in total BLISS!
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Shaul Steinposted 15 years ago
@ Fairbear:

You do not know where you would send them? Really?

If you believe we are accountable for our deeds.
What do you do with people who have done wrong or evil?

What, give them the same things as the people who have done good and right?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My system would not be based on accountability, because, no, I don't believe we are accountable for our deeds in any cosmic sense.
  
  My system would be based on classification. I would classify people according to their treatment of others, and I would separate all the classifications. So murderers would be with murderers, rapists with rapists, etc etc. But this is in no way a form of punishment or reward. It's merely a way of keeping those who do harm away from those who do not do harm.
  
  I would not punish or reward anyone. Everyone would be placed in the same physical conditions. The only difference between the different locations would be the nature of the actual people who lived in them.
  
  Finally, I would always keep my system open for revision in case I saw that something could be improved.
  
  That's just me.
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
God is Love and there is no denying that.......
Isn't hate the opposite of love

ah what do i know
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fear is the opposite of love.
  
  Fear is the opposite of love. If I might explain why.
  Love has ZERO fear. They cannot exist together.
  Fear comes from darkness and no understanding of light and life.
  
  Fear leads to all the things you mentioned.
  I am to afraid to care.
  I am apathetic because of the fear of caring.
  I am indifferent because I am afraid to be involved.
  I am afraid to love and be transparent.
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
TRUE LOVE DOES HAVE BOUNDARIES........ I don't believe in hell a god of love would not do that to anyone,,,,, not even an enemy, I don't believe in fiery torment
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
maybe read the hubs of My Friend Shiyloh and find out yourself
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
you are doing well to keep your head, when all around you are losing ther's well done
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love is patient.
  I am not love, I am in love with love.
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  oh i see that makes sense, are you staying in here all night or will you coming out to write a hub
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The hubs are created by what is written here.
  Love is wise.
  Writes no words in vain.
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chukra Gposted 15 years ago
there is no HELL
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i agree.... the word means common grave of mankind
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  chukra Gposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You Brenda
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
nice one now get outa there
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
o.k. then i understand, you are funny
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
chill it's friday night man
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  is that what day it is? wow
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Fairbearposted 15 years ago
The only thing I was trying to figure out "with my natural mind" was what you believed in.

Thanks. You finally cleared it up for me. I know where you stand now.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  These are elementary things.
  I have stated them 10 different ways.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But none of the ways you stated them before were elementary enough for my little brain to understand. Thanks for coming down to my level. I appreciate it.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK.
  
  I did talk in black, white and in color.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have no answer to the questions?
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
anyone else enjoying this or is it just me,,,,,
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\Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago
i wonder if you will still be at this in the morning enjoy
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Knock if off, Pearldiver!!!!
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My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years ago
Love is not a title.
Love is love.
It can be defined is all.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You gave love a title, though. Oops.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I told him just the same an hour ago, but he didn't reply
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Calling love love is giving it a title?
  Hummm
  Men are men?
  Women are women?
  
  Defining love as love.
  
  If you say so.
  
  Air is air?
  Hate is hate?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm... if you say so. Giving something a name is also giving it a title, doncha think?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If my name is Joe, is that my title?
  If Joe is the boss, then boss is his title.
  
  I do not have to call love, love... again. no big deal.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@my friends

you are giving love a title : myfriend shyloh
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
One way I know or recognize love is that love does things for others driven by a warm glow felt somewhere within that we usually refer to as the heart. Affection felt towards the other.
This aspect of love also makes love somewhat subjective, as many do not love widely enough to encompass all they could.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do not see love as being subjective because love has no weakness and never fails.
  The reason why it never fails is because it does not fall from it's place of being loving and cannot be forced to do so.
  Even in correcting, it acts in love.
  Yes love is very much about being "the other person minded" as it is needless and does not think of itself.
  It always gives without expecting anything. Not easy to master that as we are so selfish.
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
there is a lot of hate in this religious forum. Where does it come from?? I think that it comes from one place calling him/her self multiple people that seem to be agreeing with each other? building power and what for???? to steal the conversation away ??????? He/ she does not want for us to talk!!! It is working ???? and yea they can call me a Zealot and critise because because I mispelled something>. Anything for a distraction from THE SUBJECT matter. It is working, what are ya going to do about it????
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ya just don't KNOW whar Y don't KNOW ya know????
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is someone really doing that?
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ya don't know what ya don't know...... YA KNOW?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you O.K ??!!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have never thought so.....
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!!!!!
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Fairbearposted 15 years ago
Love cannot possibly be expressed or represented by an act of hate. Therefore, a God who sends people to Hell, or even gives them the option of going to Hell, cannot possibly love them.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If there's a god that created us, he doesn't love us at all !!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If there's a god that created us, he doesn't love us at all !!
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Discipline and respect for one's choices (even if they're wrong)is not an act of hate.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Discipline: punishment inflicted by way of correction or training. (dictionary.com, definition 3)
  
  No one gets out of Hell, so how could it correct anything? No one gets a chance to stand corrected!
  
  What does Hell train for? More Hell?
  
  Hell is not discipline, sorry. Hell is damnation. The only purpose you could say it serves is either elimination, or deterrence. That kind of punishment is called capitol punishment. The difference between our capitol punishment, and God's is that ours lasts for a very short period until the subject is dead, whereas God's is eternal death, death that never ends.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thus fear of death and the religions to "overcome it"
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  Shaul Steinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We did speak of annihilation no?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, yeah. I know exactly where you stand. This is addressed to Valerie, the escape artist.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And you call me an escape artist, when you haven't addressed my point that a loving God doesn't kidnap souls.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have no place to call anyone out for not addressing the points you make. You don't play by those rules yourself.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And you act like I do that on purpose. I have a family and a couple of jobs. So I only address the points I believe are worth addressing for the sake of brevity. I do not ignore anything.
  
  If I addressed every single argument made here or anywhere, I wouldn't have any life outside the forums.
  
  As for this thread, I have addressed your points- the fundamental one is that the very title of your thread is wrong. Christians are not dishonest. They honestly do believe that it is our own choices, not God's, that send people to Hell, so your premise and your accusation that Christians are dishonest is false.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, you DO do it on purpose. You managed to address all of my points except the ones that you couldn't dismantle. I know you did this because of how soon you popped back up responding to someone else's post. You just changed from me over to someone else. And the worst part was that you started the debate! You challenged me! I played fair and you didn't. You're excuses sound lame. I have a life too, so does everyone else on here, but you're the only one without the time to respond to an argument that you yourself provoked.
  
  Do you want to face the music and really respond to my real point? Or am I wasting my time again?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Valerie, if you say that Hell is not a punishment, then why do you refer to it here as discipline?
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes discipline means letting people experience the consequences of their choices. For example, a long-suffering, loving parent might refuse to bail an unrepentant criminal child out of jail.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean to say that God lets people go to Hell?
  
  Also, describing Hell as a consequence, do you mean to say it is naturally occurring?
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It would be my guess that if any human soul is in Hell at all, it's because God respects their choice to remain permanently estranged. So, yes, if you're really so determined to go to Hell you've spent your life resisting all effort to help you avoid that fate, God won't stop you.
  
  I wouldn't exactly call Hell a natural consequence, but it is a logical consequence of rejecting the alternative.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Be more direct please. You're dancing around the question. Just tell me straight out. Does God let people go to Hell?
  
  As for the second question, I'm asking you, essentially, how does a person physically go to Hell after they die? Is it automatic?
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The first question cannot be answered any more directly than this. To say God lets people go to Hell is akin to saying loving parents let their adult children become criminals estranged from the family. They don't want that to happen and make all kinds of sacrifices to ensure that doesn't happen, but ultimately it's not their choice to make.
  
  So if you think, by "letting people go to Hell," God casually allows people to willy-nilly go and doesn't lift a figurative finger to make sure they have every opportunity to choose Heaven, the answer is no.
  
  If by "letting people go to Hell," you mean reluctantly allowing people to get exactly what they want when they choose to be permanently estranged from God, then the answer would be a limited and conditional yes.
  
  As for the second question, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a soul "physically" going to Hell (and I think you're changing the question with a stipulation like that), as I am not a Biblical literalist. However, Hell is a fairly automatic consequence. If you don't accept an invitation to Heaven, you don't go. It's as simple as that.
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  LiamBeanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know?
  
  How could you possibly prove this? Do you claim to know the mind of god?
  
  I can cite at least two examples where this assertion could be thrown into serious doubt. And once again, it indicates that you somehow know the mind of god. How is that possible?
  
  So one's virtual body burns in a figurative fire? Interesting. Sounds remarkably hazy and nondescript; like fog or smoke.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't pretend to have any special or unique knowledge of God's mind. It's as easy to know that God doesn't want people to go to Hell as looking up John 3:16-17 or 2 Peter 3:9.
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  LiamBeanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Neither passage makes mention of hell.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Essentially, and with a great deal of reluctance, you answered my question. It was a yes or no question. Either God lets people go to Hell, or He doesn't. Period. Put all the conditions and limits on it that you want, complicate it all you want, but the simplicity of it still shines through. You said "yes." God does let people go to Hell. I know that was hard for you, so I appreciate it.
  
  To let something happen means that you had the power to stop it. A parent cannot stop their grown kids from becoming criminals, not unless they lock the kids in a room and hold them captive, which is illegal and virtually impossible. God, however, does have the power to pardon people, does He not? Are you going to tell me now that He is powerless to save a person who rejects Him? Can He not rescue a soul from Hell against the soul's will? Is that impossible to Him? If so, then you're saying that Man's will is more powerful than God's.
  
  And the point that you have avoided the most, which everyone else on here has no problem seeing, Christians too, is this:
  
  God made the natural order. If a person goes to Hell for their choices, or rejection, or sins, or whatever reason, their going to Hell is by God's design. God is the judge who decided that those who reject Him will go to Hell.
  
  Will you please acknowledge this obvious, simple point? Everyone else has, why can't you? It's easy to see.
  
  God designed Hell and then decided that people would go there for rejecting Him.
  
  Answer this: If God didn't decide on Hell as a consequence for those who reject Him, who did!?!?
  
  God is the judge. Period. He does the sentencing.
  
  Revelations 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
  
  In this verse, who is doing the throwing? How can a person throw themselves? Don't get sidetracked on the reason why the people are thrown into the lake of fire. I'm asking a much more simple question. Who is doing the throwing in this verse?
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate that this is a frameworked debate, but there is of course the obvious alternative - none of it is true.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, but my point here isn't to prove anything about God or Hell or whatnot. My point is to prove something about Christianity. Something that Christians try really hard to hide.
  
  Yeah, I don't believe a lick of it myself, but that's beside the point.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God does have the power to pardon. He offers us the choice to make every single day of our lives.
  
  For God to save a soul from the consequences of sin after one has died is not an option. Not because of mans will but because to do that God would be a liar and not just.
  
  God is perfect
  His kingdom is perfect
  In that perfection can there be no sin
  God did set the law according to His standard of perfection. He had to.
  
  It is our choice however which dictates where our soul is to go or to be thrown.
  We make a concious decision on that as even you quoting that scripture KNOW what God says. You quoted the law that HE wrote. You know it as it is there for you to read.
  For God then to know that you have read it, to know that you are aware of it and to see that you do not care to believe in it, must then follow through with the next course of action pertaining to it.
  If He did not, He would be negating His own perfection of what is Just, what is right. He would be allowing for that sin to enter His perfect kingdom which would then make His kingdom not perfect.
  And let us be perfectly clear on this
  Hell was not designed for YOU or anyone else for that matter. It was designed for Satan and his band of fallen angels.
  Did God know in advance that man would go there or end up there?
  yes.
  But God also knew there would those who would accept his grace, accept his forgiveness and not go there.
  To God, it is their faithfulness which has set them free, as a result of that too, he has secured a place for them as well. A place where there is no torment. A place where there is no suffering, no pain, no death, no illness, no tears.
  
  Then God being loving, being full of grace very simply offers us a choice:
  To suffer in hell
  Or
  To live in that place of perfection.
  It is our choice either way dictated by our either lack of belief or belief.
  
  The same would be true if you were to say, take someones hand and place it over a flame. You then instruct that person of a choice they have to have you place it ON the flame or to take it away from it.
  The person you would assume would say, "take it away, take it away!" But what if they didn't? What if knowing how it would burn them and cause them pain they said "by all means. place it on there."
  Now in this case, who is really guilty if the person who chose for you take there hand and place it on the flame, were to get burned?
  
  Is it your fault for taking the hand and forcing a choice in the matter?
  Is it the natural law of fire?
  Is it the one who created fire?
  Is it the one who created the body such as to get burned?
  
  Or is it rather the choice made?
  
  It is the choice because though it may be true that you took the hand, the person made the choice resulting in the burning.
  Though it may be true that the body is constructed to be burned, it is the persons choice on if it does get burned.
  Though fire exists it is not the fires fault, it is what it is, and does burn.
  
  Hell simply because it exists does not dictate whether or not you are to go there
  
  God having made the human body did not dictate it to sin or disbelieve.
  
  God does not force us to have faith.
  
  He too does not force us to be sent to hell. Rather he offers us a clear choice in the matter.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Valerie,
  In case you are having trouble finding where our interaction left off, this is it.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are assuming again that I am a Biblical literalist and believe that going to Hell will involve being literally thrown. Still, Heaven is God's realm, God's party, and if some stranger tries to crash it, break in, or otherwise make it less than heavenly, God has a right to decide whether you stay or go. If God throws people out of his own realm, that's God's own prerogative, and you've no right to call God evil any more than you'd have a right to judge a homeowner as evil for chasing a burglar or an abusive family member off.
  
  It is all about blame, because you yourself said God is evil for hosting a party, creating a place for people who don't want to go, and not dragging them to the party against their... here we go again... will.
  
  I think kidnapping is evil.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  THANK YOU!!!!!!
  finally!!
  
  That God does what you just described is the only point I am interested in making.
  
  To all other related or unrelated points you've made, I will not argue. My point was VERY simple. And you just confirmed it.
  
  If you think God is good, fine! If you think He has a right to throw people out of His realm, fine! I don't care. My opinion differs from yours, but I'm not interested in debating opinions.
  
  Thank you. I really do appreciate it.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You love right?
  You do not appear to be filled with hate right?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I love my wife. I love music. I love pizza. I love myself. I love tacos. I love rainy days.
  
  I hate television commercials. I hate religion. I hate sauerkraut. I hate Andy Dick. I hate oversized trucks.
  
  Do you have a point?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, one can know love and be in love.
  At the same time, love has boundaries, that if broken will arouse rightful hate and anger.
  As in, if someone did something you your wife or your home.
  I am obviously not talking about personal pref.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're wrong about that. I thought you were an expert. This is disappointing.
  
  If someone hurt my wife and I hated them for it, it wouldn't be because my love had boundaries. It would be because I had boundaries. The love in me would be overpowered by hatred, but it would still be there, limitless, eternal, and untouched. It just would no longer be dominant.
  
  Love by itself has no boundaries. But it can be drowned out by other emotions. And that's a human boundary.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ahhhh...you see that is the difference between you and I in understanding what love really is.
  
  To say I am "wrong about that" only means you need to gain a better understanding of real love.
  
  You make yourself separated and different from love and say "my love" (because my love) and then say "I" (because I)
  
  When you tell your wife "I love you"...what do you mean then?
  You say you are different than your love?
  
  Perfect love can hate and not move from love or fail.
  Love hates lies, cheating, selfish pride, murder, rape, stealing, arrogance etc...
  I hate these things. But they do not move me from my place of love.
  
  Real love cannot be overpowered, it has no weakness.
  Your understanding of love is in the realm of human love, no offense.
  
  It is love that prompts you to protect your wife and righteously be angered by the offender and as well it should !!! Your wife would think you to be a coward if not for your love to protect.
  
  Love puts a fence around those it loves, these are boundaries to keep out evil.
  Love itself is boundless, and yet has boundaries that cannot be broken.
  
  Love is not subject to human emotions, love acts with volition, not emotional feelings that go all over the place.
  
  I do not put boundaries on the love that I "show" for people.
  I put boundaries "around" the people I love to keep evil out!
  
  I am at one with love. My will is one with love.
  I cannot be separated from it by anything at all !!!
  Love consumes me to the uttermost.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know, Shiyloh, I think I finally see what's going on here. It took me a while because I'm so ignorant and so much lower than you here in my earthly plane. But I'm starting to see the light, thanks to you.
  
  I see it now! You are the foremost authority on the subject of love!!! That's what you've been trying so hard to show everyone, but we're all just too stubborn and unaware to see it. I'm so sorry that I didn't see this before. WOW! Can I come to you if I ever have a question about love? Please? I mean, there's SO much I could learn from you! Like, how do I get up there on that higher plane where you exist? I bet it's awesome up there! You get to look down on all of us ignorant, blind people squirming around in the grime, not knowing the truth about love like you do. I mean, I see now that I don't even know what love is! I need you to teach me!
  
  Man! I knew there was a reason I came to Hubpages! This has changed my life! I can't wait for you to post your next priceless drop of wisdom so I can record it in my new Shiyloh sayings journal!
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love is not offended by sarcasm.
  
  And people REALLY wonder why we get our panties in a bunch over here... All the high and mighty, you will never understand, you can't see it from my imaginary, superior dimension. Condescending as Hell. Love is condescending.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You better double check that with Shiyloh. You could be wrong. She'll let you know.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love is never insincere
  
  I have said I am a nobody a hundred times in the threads.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You've also said that you exist in a higher plane, and you also correct anyone who dares to say anything about love. The word "nobody" is just a title you're putting on yourself.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am a nobody compared to love.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You would certainly know.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love teaches me and I pass on the teaching.
  It does not come from me.
  
  Do you not teach what you know?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And I'm very grateful that you pass on the teaching. It's making me a better person. I'm learning what love is for the first time in my life. You really don't know how much good you're doing for the world, Shiyloh. Keep it up.
  
  I would teach what I know, but I don't know anything worth teaching. You're lucky.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
OMG it is you fair bear! I would never have suspected you of being the number!
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I saw it too....he posted the 666 posting.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I wish it was me! that is another religious fallacy I would have enjoyed ripping up!
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well he can delete his and you get the spot
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You enjoy ripping stuff apart??
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm serious. Do yoy like ropping stiff apart??????
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm going to keep posting this question until you answer. Do you like ripping stuff up????
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, I have children and I do not like superstitious terrifying old world nonsense being spread anywhere.
  You gonna take up the anti 666 discussion for the zealots? Bring it on!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you want to check I just presented my child in the hang out . take a look !
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is a sad thing when atheist are on the top of the top 10 of the most mouthy on forums
  ( even more than the believers)
  on a RELIGious formatt.
  Can ya tell me that much??? Why do ya want to do such a thing. Do ya get a Badge for that? Why don't Ya make a thread of your own and invite me over to talk to ya. and leave these other people to believe in what they want to???? I think that if you are 1/2 as intelligent as ya think that ya are. you should know that you are over here looking for answers. You realy don't really like tearing stiff up as much as you say that you do ? and.. yea .. I didn't spell stuff right so there..... I just wanna kno why ? where does your hate come from ?
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Couldn't get a bite even with the misspelling so you had to mention it yourself? Get a hold!
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If I caint impress ya with my wit I'll rey ta baffle ya with ---- ---- And If that dont work I'll just change tha subject. That's been working for you hasn't it ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't want a bite.
  I'm waitin for an answer.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you so angry today ??!! Is something wrong with you ? What is the matter ?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In another thread I was The 666 ! You're going to laugh ,but I have them tattoed in my arm, among some tribal stuff and a serpent
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A very good strategy!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just in case the devil comes, I'm marked as one of the chosen
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And the religious fundies will keep their distance.
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Fairbearposted 15 years ago
Yeah, I only have two avatars, and I haven't used the other one in over a year.
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Shaul Steinposted 15 years ago
Where is the hang out?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
The world is a mirror grasshopper! Getting upset because no one answered you. Poor pet! "lol:
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I should leave it earnest. I know this guy and he's O.K. I like the way he writes his hubs.. something is happening with him today
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK tantrum, I can go with that.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're 1 of the peole I like best in here !!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. I think we are alike in not wanting to stay in the shadows and permit people to project their religion on to the human condition, thereby relinquishing personal responsibility and morals to a lunatic non entity. I like you on here too, despite the fact that your spelling is almost as bad ad mine!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I LOVE Tantrum and Earnest. There is really so much love in this thread, Jerami. You have no idea...
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  .. and you wordscribe the great lunar of limericks, are full of love!
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Fairbearposted 15 years ago
Aw, shucks, guys! I love all of you!!!
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
Love you all too !
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
I love Fairbear, too. So sorry I left you out. You're at the top of my list. HUGS. Oh yeah, I forgot love's not physical.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A bit difficult to be physical in here !
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, I do not know fairbear very well yet, but posts have been very good, and I like the mind behind!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes! Fairbear as well
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ditto to both of you guys! You've just brightened my spirits. Thanks.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is physical, never said it was not.
  Physical is just the lowest form of it.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love is Like a Breath of Fresh Air.
  No more or less than a breath of fresh air with maybe a little fragrance of lilac and somt....... etc etc.
  Love is like that!!!!
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love can also be like morning breath, with maybe a little fragrance of last night's supper. Love is like that (if you're married).
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Strange how the topic went from hell to love about 10 pages ago
  
  It's all the fault of Earnest too!!!
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My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years ago
I think if I do not say I love you all as well.

It might breed !!!
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
That does not seem like a bad wrap, I'll take it! Thank you!
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
How does love teach you, Shiyloh (dumb it down to our earthly dimension)?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have told you plainly what love has taught me.
  Black and white and in color.
  
  Love teaches me every waking moment in all that happens around me.
  It is just a matter of being aware of it and seeing love through the eyes of love.
  Seeing people through the eyes of love.
  It teaches me in stillness and silence.
  It teaches me in the music it has given me to compose.
  Teaches me in situations if I listen to it's voice.
  Love has a voice, when it speaks, it make a certain sound.
  Love teaches me when I fast, meditate and spend time listening to love even closer as it were.
  I ignore what I want to do, and do what love would instead.
  
  I learn from it constantly and have been learning from love for some 30 years.
  It teaches me to speak of love and not myself.
  If it is not of love, then I care not to do it.
  
  It is really very simple, you just have to listen to love in all things and not be moved or shaken by this realm for any reason at all.
  
  This does not happen over night. It is not a feeling.
  
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, then you must never sin....
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is sin?
  Define it please.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Odd that you asked how love teaches me and I gave you an extensive answer and all you pick out is do I sin?
  
  Perhaps it was of little value to you.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're being obtuse on purpose. Anyhoo, sin is doing's what wrong or not doing what's right according to the rules God (or Love) set forth, transgression or rebellion against the law or word of God (Love).
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Fairbear, you seem to know exactly the same amount as myself.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It sucks being so dumb, huh?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, it does. Shiyloh claims to not know the definition of sin, however.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Never said that dear...I asked YOU for YOUR definition of sin because you asked the question. Asking you to define it is wrong to you?
  People have all kinds of def. for sin.
  Right?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't call me dear, dear. So, answer my question. You never sin, huh? Oops dug yerself a little hole there, huh?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I did answer your question.
  I did not say dear to offend, sorry.
  In no hole, need no rescue.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Must've missed it. DO YOU EVER SIN? YES OR NO?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are arguing like Earnest was yesterday and 15 posts later after I asked him to read it again and again he finally admitted I had said what I said.
  And apologized.
  I did answer you.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  why don't you save her the trouble (out of love) and just answer her again? Geez!
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I answered 2 times
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My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years ago
Love is learned through the things I suffer.
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
I'm not sure I believe Hell is annihilation. That being said, it's not eternal life. It could be a lifeless existence. Regardless, it is separation from God. If you choose permanent estrangement from God, that's exactly what you'll get.

A loving God doesn't kidnap souls and drag them unwillingly to Heaven.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but a loving God would do just that. He would not allow anyone to burn for eternity, no matter what their choices in life were. You're describing a spiteful God who seeks retribution.
  A God who was all love would forgive everyone, without exception.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, but we talked about this before:
  
  Your choices here and your "place" as you call heaven / hell...are not changed by death.
  
  If you reject love and are tormented here because of that choice here, death does not change your rejection of love.
  
  If you chose love here, love is not changed by death.
  
  Your choices will become an echo))))))))..... after death.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is one of the most ridiculous things I ever heard !!
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
Wordscribe, to address your reinvention of Gaunilo's attempted rebuttal of Anselm's ontological proof of God's existence (Gaunilo used a hypothetical "perfect island" instead of your unicorn), God, being defined as a Supreme Being, has no equal and nothing that can serve as a substitute.

Substituting anything, be it a unicorn or a perfect island, won't work.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  VERY convienient, I say. Forgot to address the rest. Not proving he doesn't exist Valerie. I'm trying to prove the burden of proof is on the believers to prove he DOES. You skimmed it I think.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What's left to address? You're still trying to make an equal substitute, a second Supreme Being. If there is more than one Supreme Being, or if a Supreme Being has an equal substitute, then it's not Supreme.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Re-read it, Valerie. My unicorn is as absurd as your God, all make-believe. So, burden of proof is on you to prove your make believe entity exists. Just as if I were to make th claim about the unicorn. You missed all the other points in that thread. Lot more to address...
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She's good at that.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  *POOF* she's gone... On the 666 thread.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, but she has a family and she has to work. That makes it ok.
  
  Poof, I'm gone too. Going to bed. Sleepy. You all have fun. See you tomorrow.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Goodnight. Sleep well. See you tomorrow...
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Back to my question, you ever sin, or what?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you not see the 3?
  #3 is the answer.
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Sorry, missed the #3 there, Shiyloh. Thanks for the answer.

You say: If it is not of love, then I care not to do it.
And you say you sin when you are: "unknowingly, unwittingly, ignorantly doing something because you did not know better."

So, you know so much about love, but don't know all of it's boundaries/rules? That's a pretty elementary start, I would imagine, you know, knowing these boundaries.... Right?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Answer this...
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I know them.
  If I make an error unknowingly, then I learn.
  Like in going the wrong way down a street because the sign was blocked.
  Stepping on someones foot.
  Cutting someone off on the freeway unknowingly.
  Lose self control? No
  Rebellion? No
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We have completely different definitions of sin. If you say these are sins, well then okay, they're sins to you. Pretty hard on yourself, I'd say.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 15 years ago
Wordscribe?

Do you sin?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You haven't addressed my post above. Don't change the subject.
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
So Fairbear, have you effectively proven the existence of telepathy? Because that's what you'd need to know if my intent is anything other than what I state it is.

Otherwise, if I say I don't avoid your points on purpose, you have no proof to the contrary.

I could just as easily say that in accusing me of not addressing your points, you have deliberately ignored where I have. I have not gone that far yet because I don't really know your intentions.

Regardless, there is no smokescreen in Christianity. Christians believe the only people, if any, who go to Hell (permanent estrangement from God) are the ones who've chosen it, and that God doesn't want people to go to Hell. God, being loving, doesn't want people to go to Hell, but respects their choices.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Bed will have to wait.
  
  Valerie, do you want to hear my real point? Do you want to hear the one that you've avoided so expertly? Hmm? I'll be willing to forget everything that's transpired between us up till now, if you'll just give me a response to the one point you never responded to. Will you do it? Give me a straight answer. If you say yes, I'll make said point one more time for you. Are you game?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can so relate, on the "Bed will have to wait" gig. Don't you hate it when that happens? Poor tired bear...
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ha ha. Your empathy is appreciated. The sleepytime tea is kicking in.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
  
  Somehow, I have a feeling that it won't be any different than what you've already posted, and I'll end up repeating myself to once again be falsely accused of avoiding what I'm not, but I'd like very much to be proven wrong.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, good. Now I'm gonna take this one step at a time. Please just give me straight, honest answers. Nothing more than yes or no should suffice.
  
  Is Hell a punishment?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Valerie, I'm gonna have to pick up on this tomorrow. But I'm holding you to it. You said you would like to be proven wrong? You said you'd address my point? When I see you tomorrow, I'm gonna start right where we left off.
  
  I have to get some sleep. Bye bye all.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No. It is a consequence. There is a difference.
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