Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

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My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years ago
Do you sin?
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  According to MY definition, nope. Sin doesn't exist. No God, no sin.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Do you do any wrong?
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What's your definition of wrong?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Anything you know to be wrong, break any law men have made?
  
  Or
  Loss of self control.
  Unjustified anger.
  Gossip.
  Slander.
  Talk about people when they are not there.
  Do things to hurt someone.
  Not do what your asked at work.
  Lie, cheat, steal.
  Make assumptions.
  Not help someone when it is in your power to do so.
  
  Or, do you have a def. of wrong that you violate?
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So are you perfect according to your definition?
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say that. I said "SIN" doesn't exist for me. No God, no sin. Get it? Go back a few boxes to see my definition, if you please...
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
Wordscribe, if you think you have to give up rational thought in order to believe in God, you have a narrow and I hate to say very mistaken view of religion.
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wordscribe41posted 16 years ago
Of course, Shiyloh. I'm human, aren't I?
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
But sin is defined not just as disobedience to God, but as simply falling short. If you've ever fallen short, it doesn't matter whether you believe in a God and that you've just disobeyed God, you've sinned.

To say you have not sinned is to say you're perfect. And that's where some believers get the idea that atheists have a superiority complex.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That's on you guys. "Fallen short" of what? And yes, it does matter whether I believe in God or not. You cannot change my definition with your semantics.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Rubbish! sin is a religiously defined word, and I agree. I do not "sin" either.
  As for having superiority complex, the word sin is used to blaim and exclude. Screwing up is human and we all do it.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years ago
To commit an offense or violation.

Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

Disobedience to the known right thing to do, especially when deliberate.

To violate a moral law of men.

A transgression of said law or laws.

It's not my definition.

Websters.

It just means to "mis"
Not a big deal to understand, it is a term in archery, to mis a mark.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So what is your definition?
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Anything not done in love.
  
  Would you agree Wordscribe?
  
  That anything outside of love is an offense, a wrong, a transgression, a fault that needs to be overcome?
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Main Entry: 1sin
  Pronunciation: \ˈsin\
  Function: noun
  Etymology: Middle English sinne, from Old English synn; akin to Old High German sunta sin and probably to Latin sont-, sons guilty, est is — more at is
  Date: before 12th century
  1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : fault
  2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
  
  synonyms see offense
  
  Not my definition, Merriam-Webster's.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OK Wordscribe, so you looked over this entire list and have not done, nor do you still, any on the list? Not a single one? It's a word with a broad definition, basically any kind of wrong at all.
  
  You never do these?
  "Sin~synonym~Offense"
  
  * S: (n) discourtesy, offense, offense, offensive activity (a lack of politeness; a failure to show regard for others; wounding the feelings or others)
  * S: (n) umbrage, offense, offense (a feeling of anger caused by being offended) "he took offense at my question"
  * S: (n) crime, offense, criminal offense, criminal offense, offense, law-breaking ((criminal law) an act punishable by law; usually considered an evil act)
  
  an often serious shortcoming : fault
  an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food>
  offense or violation.
  Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
  Disobedience to the known right thing to do, especially when deliberate.
  To violate a moral law of men.
  A transgression of said law or laws.
  
  Wrong / fault / offense / sin / transgression
  All the same meanings no matter where you look, just taken from different languages. Maybe German, Latin, French or whatever.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Silly, Shiyloh... You missed my earlier post where I said I'm human, yes, I do wrong. How are you today? But, I don't SIN as that's a God-loaded/religious word. No such thing as sinning.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I did not mis your post at all, i think I have addressed it a couple times without quoting it directly.
  
  OK, the word fits the description of what all of us do at times.
  Like the word "speeding"...people can say 'I was going a little to fast"...but they do not like to say "I was speeding"....this makes them feel guilty of an offense.
  I have been in traffic court and heard people trying to explain to the judge they were not speeding by using all kinds of other words, it was funny.
  
  I think you are willing to use every word that is used to define "sin" and then say "I do not sin"......but it's just a different word.
  A word that simply means to do wrong. admitting it will not force you to change your other views about spiritual things. After all, you say you are just a piece of material and that is all you think you are.
  
  Even if one thinks otherwise, but wish to go around again with it.
  
  I am doing great thank you.
  And you?
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
There is no "for you." Either sin exists, or it doesn't. Sin is any chosen behavior that falls short of perfection. People choose to behave imperfectly. Therefore, sin exists.

The believer doesn't define sin as just disobedience to God. Most sins are against other people. In fact, a very strong case could probably be made for sin existing quite independently of God.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Can't have your cake and eat it too, Valerie. Did you not just give me the "for YOU" definition of sin? By the way, sin doesn't exist in my definition. Again, I'll say this ad nauseum..... for me, no God equals no sin. Mind if I start telling you how to define some of your words, too?
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, since you dismissed sin as a religious concept, I thought I'd fall back on a religious definition of sin, which defines all wrongdoing as sin, and which differentiates slightly between sins against God and sins against people, the latter being quite readily observable.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure why the religious definition of sin would work for me...
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sin against other people, as defined by most religions, is readily observable. Or do you deny that people do wrong and even inflict evil upon others?
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  hiya just stopped by to say hello word scribe you are a great woman
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, Brenda. You are a great woman, too. Hope you're having a great day... Sorry to hear one of your residents passed away. Yesterday was bad for me as well. My sister's dog, who we found and lived with us for a while, passed away yesterday. Very sad...
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  \Brenda Scullyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  wordscribe41 wrote:
  
  today shuld be better.... I hate it when dogs die you can't even go to a funeral to show your respects..... dogs make life that bit better, don't you think.... will she replace the dog
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Rubbish.
  
  Sin only exists for you because you hold an irrational belief.
  
  Making up new meanings for words so that you can retroactively make a point does not really help.
  
  Interesting that you also speak for all believers as well. I know quite a few who stick to the real meaning of the word "sin."
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sin is disobediance to God, whether you sin against man or not. Anything you do that is "wrong" is a sin. Regardless of if you even know or believe it is wrong as well.
  
  Sin does not ONLY exist because of any belief, whether irrational or rational. That is your opinion because you choose to not believe in God.
  But simply because of your belief which in my opinion is irrational, that God does not exist, does in no way negate whether or not "sin" exists.
  
  And one could argue further, Sin is any and all wrong doing or bad, something which is the opposite of good or right. All wrong doing is disobedience to God, whether you choose to believe He is there or not does not matter in that respect. So then in you saying "sin ONLY exists ..." is like saying then that the opposite is true then, that Good "Only" exists as a result of ones belief. That to me is irrational.
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wordscribe41posted 16 years ago
Brenda,

Glad you get it... She's looking into getting a hypoallergic cat later. Allergies in the family. Dogs are THE BEST. Unconditional love... I have one who's 15 and am DREADING the day. I wish they could live longer.

All of my posts are shifted WAY over to the right of the screen. Can't even push "quote/edit"... I've seen this before. Anyhoo...
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
I'm amazed this discussion is still going on. The law of the land applies to all citizens. Religious laws apply only to those who espouse said religion.
The law (in US and Europe and many other countries) does not concern itself with sin, because the law is sufficiently 'grown up' to understand that sin is a matter between believers and their God. Non-believers, for the most part, reject the ideas of God, heaven, hell, satan, sin, redemption and the whole panoply of, for us, unnecessary and unhelpful concepts.
There are countries where sin is enshrined in Law. Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind. Is this really the example you want to follow? Because that is what you are doing when you insist that everyone is governed by your belief. It's simply unreasonable.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome!
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Shiyloh, I cannot say it any better than our articulate Paraglider. It's not semantics for me, like the speeding example you used. I do "wrong", I do not and will never "sin".
  
  I'm well, just finished having dinner with my husband and 3 kids. It's a gorgoeus day here in Portland, OR. Crisp, fresh, cool air looming... AHHHH.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OK, for me I think it is a sin to harm your neighbor in any word or deed.
  A sin to break any law of men.
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You are avoiding my questions on dinner!!!
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  See above post. Plus, forgot to mention the sun-dried tomatoes... Integral ingredient in the ensemble.
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
No-one is denying wrong-doing. But sin is far too loaded a concept. It brings with it all these notions of redemption, eternal damnation, etc. Also it is associated with statements like all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Which doesn't say a lot for God
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sin is wrong doing.
  
  God brings redemption for it.
  
  God punishes for it.
  
  And how is it that by God seeing all sins as equal not sayng much for Him?
  
  He is perfect. His kingdom is perfect. He hates sin, ALL sin equally. As Sin or doing wrong is disobedience. Disobedience or sin leads to further disobedience, furhter sin, further wrong doing. It corrupts that which is good.
  
  And what is it exactly that we as people consider good is falible. As our perception to what is good is varied. As you put it in another post. In Iran for example, women who are raped are not good , they have sinned. According to mans standard of what good is, of what sin is.
  Not according to the standard of what God says it is.
  To God the sin came, the wrong doing came not from the woman but from the rapist.
  
  It is mans interpretation of the laws of God which in respect one would conclude whether or not something is right or wrong.
  
  And too, just because one sins does not automatically damn them. I sin, everyone sins. Everyone does wrong or is disobedient. That does not damn us. What causes damnation in other words is not sin, but it is the lack of confessing sin, the lack of asking for forgiveness of that sin, the disbelief in the God which wrote the laws pertaining to good and evil, right and wrong which does in fact damn us.
  
  Even you knowing you are a disbeliever and knowing as you do what the Bible and thus God says about that are choosing to remain steadfast in that disbeleief, that sin.
  
  That is the real problem and why God has chosen to equal all sin. Because to God if one chooses to remain defiant, one then whether by word, action or deed may cause and does cause others to sin and or disbeleve as well.
  
  Sin breeds more sin.
  
  In that respect all sin is evil. Every sin is wrong. According to the standard God set.
  
  In that respect too, every man is equally deserving punishment for it, and too EVERY MAN IS EQUALLY DESERVING OF FORGIVENESS FOR IT! But this is conditional on belief in that forgiveness, belief in the fact that they have in fact sinned and the confession to God to and of that.
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
The problem here, Atomswifey, is that you insist that you know facts when in fact you only have a belief set.

Look at this -

"As you put it in another post. In Iran for example, women who are raped are not good , they have sinned. According to mans standard of what good is, of what sin is.
Not according to the standard of what God says it is. "

In other words, Islam's holy book is written by men, but you holy book is written by God. Very good.

And this -

"And how is it that by God seeing all sins as equal not sayng much for Him?"

Because child molestation is worse than shoplifting. If your God can't see that, he should seriously consider early retirement.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  To posit that the Muslim holy book is "written by men" (as opposed to the Torah or Pentateuch) is a complete fallacy. In fact Islam's primary holy book IS the Pentateuch (first five books of the bible as are the first five books of Torah or in the West Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). In Islam it is called "The Book of Moses."
  
  The Koran is an Islamic addendum to that tome and is very roughly* equivalent to the Western Christian New Testament.
  
  One should get one's facts straight before espousing knowledge that obviously does not exist.
  
  *roughly means just that. Not like, not the same, not similar, not identical.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The book of Islam was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
  
  God sees the shoplifter just as guilty as the child molestor. That is the difference. Both have committed crimes and are equal to that extent. There are no degrees of sin. In other words, ALL SIN IS WRONG.
  Is the shoplifter wrong for shoplifting? Is the thought process or the intent any different than the child molestor?
  The shoplifter in this case, was longing for, regardless of the consequence, or lusting after an object to steal. The child moloestor is longing for or lusting after the child to molest.
  The sin there is comparable in that regard.
  Both longed for, regardless of the consequence
  Both lusted
  And both sinned in that regard.
  The acts they commit do differ but the sin is the same or equal.
  
  You say what you do because you do not understand Gods destain for sin itself.
  What you are failing to realize is that ALL sin is wrong.
  
  By sin coming into this world through mans own sin in acting on it. We are born itno it.
  And it is mans continued disobedience, his defiance of God which continues to spread it.
  
  You are part of it, the problem of it, the cause of it. And you might say then, how is it that someones actions a long time ago might have made it that you are guilty as well?
  
  Because you just like Adam, have engaged in it. You choose to defy the God who created the laws by which he commanded for us not to take part nor be a part of it.
  
  You do not understand the standard as you are not the one to which wrote the standard or gave the standard.
  God is not just according to mans interpertation of justice.
  God is just according to His own perfection in justice.
  
  So, just as God is just in punishing sin, He is as just in forgiveness of that sin.
  
  And the real problem here is that you ignore the facts as they are presented by the God who created you.
  
  All my point is that on the day when you or anyhone else for that matter, die we are judged according to the standard God set.
  He said that "lest a man be born again, He cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven."
  This is a fact whether you choose to believe in it or not.
  
  For example a murderer can believe there is no judge, no jail, no prison, no death penalty, but they do in fact exist.
  
  God says we know He is or does exist, based on the knowledge of all that He created.
  You are not going to have any excuse for your disbelief when you stand in front of God.
  There is no scientific proof for you to present to Him which will negate Him.
  There is no scientific proof today which negates his existence.
  
  But God has shown us through His creation that He does exist. His word (the Bible) was given to show He does exist, what He requires, what the laws are, and the most important thing it tells us
  We have the opportunity because he loves us, because of His mercy and grace to ask for forgiveness, to believe and accept His son and recieve our reward for that faith/belief.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That's amazing seeing as it's the same book (as Torah and the first five books of the Christian bible) in a different language.
  
  You honestly do not know what you are talking about. Educate yourself.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  How can you allow yourself to be so condescending and self-righteous?
  
  I don't understand how anyone can not truly appreciate human diversity, and the fact that what is real to one person is not real to another.
  
  People have called you out numerous times for this same thing, but I just gotta say, don't you know that other people believe differently than you?
  
  Do you even know what it means to believe in something?
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Parroting what others have said requires little if any thought. Perhaps this is the real reason so many in this part of the world persist in spouting half-truths, absolutes, and lies. As long as those half-truths, absolutes, and lies come from elsewhere, personal responsibility can be side-stepped or wholly ignored.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I know there are people that do not believe in what I believe. I accept that. I accept them. I have many friends who are nonbelievers. And what is the point in knowing that that you are trying to make?
  
  You do not have to justify, nor am I asking of anyone to justify their disbelief.
  
  I am stating facts to the results of that disbelief as I know them to be true, as they are in fact true.
  Whether or not you believe in it or not is of no consequence to me.
  
  And as far as "personal responsibility"?
  Are you kidding me?
  It is exactly personal responsibility which prompts us to believe the way we do. To be personally responsible for our souls destination.
  To be personally responsible to and held accountable to and by God for our own actions, thoughts, beliefs and or disbeliefs.
  
  When you defy God you are taking away that personal responsibility you claim to have or possess.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No, I am not kidding you. Before you start bashing another religion by making an allusion to "true word of God" you are OBLIGATED to do some small bit of research before you go shooting your mouth off.
  
  If you can't do that, and I can prove that what you are saying is patently untrue, then everything else you assert must viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.
  
  I will go so far as to say that it is YOUR responsibility to research other religions, the root of their word, and the foundations of THEIR believes before you go around claiming that yours is the one true faith and all others worship "false gods." Anything less IS dodging personal responsibility.
  
  And whether you like it or not you've libeled other religious beliefs with no evidence, no proof, and no research.
  
  Finally, "the one true faith" can be bought five for a dollar. They are as common as dirt.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So nicely put, Liam. I've argued with Atomswifey about this before.
  
  Atomswifey said: How can we "know" we are serving the right god? Faith! we know The one true GOD through it, through seeing all He created and all that is to be. We do not give reflection to any other god. My God says, Thou shalt have NO other gods before me.
  
  I said back to her (no response): Not cutting the mustard AT ALL. No part of me accepts the argument that God says so in the Bible, so it's true. Way too many inconsistencies in that piece of literature, and literature is what it is. You might consider that you're the one taking the gamble here. Mohit would say so. What if, just what if, you really don't have faith in the correct God? What if your Bible is wrong? Bummer, shoulda picked Allah because this is the RIGHT God and His punishment is THE most severe of all. Let me venture to say you'd be praising another God altogether if you were born elsewhere. I believe in no God, as you know, but it's even offensive to me to think you believe yours is the only one. You're gambling big time, if you ask me.
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  Bibowenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The God that the Christians worship is that maximally-powerful Being as revealed in the Bible. That Being has claimed that He is the Author of existence itself. By definition, Christians would not be worshiping a lesser Being since the one they are worshiping is, as he is called in the Bible, "King of Kings and Lord of Lords."
  
  If Christians are worshiping the wrong God.....well, I guess that means they're wrong.
  
  And what if I'm wrong? I'll die and go to the grave with just another wrong idea I held while I was alive. I don't have to be right. But if the unbeliever is wrong, then all is lost. What then of his protest?
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I see the non-Christian zealots are all primed up these days. They are giving Christians a lot of chances to glorify God.
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why not ? Is Sunday
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if you spoke like a human instead of just rolling out your god talk, maybe you could join in and not feel so lonely and isolated!
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Earney I just skimmed over some of your attacks on the last couple of pages so I didn't think you were looking for this lonely and isolated god talker to "join in".
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  And, please refrain from using the word "facts" as you present no "facts" whatsovever. Simply, an unsubstantiated, irrational, archaic, contradictory belief system void of any facts.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Fairbear what are you trying to prove anyway, you are not going to change a Christian's mind. We know people send themselves to hell. I find your threads a waste of time.

If you do not believe in the Christian God then why are you so desperately concerned whether people send themselves to hell or whether God does?
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
Good morning wordscribe!
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wordscribe41posted 16 years ago
Good evening, Earnest! How's life down under today? I'm having a brilliant day with my family.

Off to make dinner for a bit...
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is wonderful here, and Sunday morning 10.30 am.
  A quiet day with the kids. They just returned from the top of the Australian north coast. Hot up there! They had a great week! My daughter is due back from Thailand on Monday, so Lauren will no doubt fire me again!
  
  How was dinner? If you made it, I guess you enjoyed it! Get me your husbands view of your cooking! ... or the twins,
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  My dinner was awesome, if I do say so myself. Fettucine with spinach in a ricotta, parmesan and asigo blend. Had loads of garlic, with pine nuts and chopped scallions on top. Had a lovely garlic bread to boot. Delightful. Approved by all 3 kids (VERY remarkable) and an unpicky husband. Great you will have your daughter back with the lovely, Lauren. Definitely one of my favorite names (close to mine, Laura). Get your rest, Earnest, you'll need it!
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Oooooh wish I was eating that! Good for building strength between Gkid visits!
  Sounds wonderful. Nothing has been found on earth that all my three little ones don't complain about. They even tell me I overcook the carrots! I do not! sob.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  If you had no grandkids to irritate you, you would not form any pearls of love.
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  And there's so much leftover. Too bad you're not my neighbor, I'd run it over pronto. I hear you about the kids complaining about food. I rarely make something everyone likes. I've given up on that. They'd eat macaroni and cheese, pizza, pudding, and cookies everyday, all day, if possible. Pasta is about the only thing we can all agree on. Ugh. Poor Earnest about the carrots... Mine HATE cooked carrots, raw are just fine.
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
No it is not. If it was that simple why are there 300 odd religions with a different view when they all read a version of the same book?
There will be a hundred opposing view for every line in the bible or Quoran, yet only your version is god.

Can't you see how thoroughly ridiculous this believe system is? I guess not. Once you have religion...
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LiamBeanposted 16 years ago
Here is a passage that mentions "hell."

Matthew 5:22 (New International Version)

22 "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[a]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[b]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Here is the same passage from the Amplified Bible, an attempt at literal translation from Aramaic or Hebrew depending

Mathew 5:22 (Amplified Bible)
"But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice (enmity of heart) against him shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the court; and whoever speaks contemptuously and insultingly to his brother shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire."

By my reasoning the second passage is as close to the original intent as English allows.

Gehenna is a place name in Israel also known as the Valley of Hinnom. This was a valley where idol worshiping Jews sacrificed their children to fires Bal.

Hell is indeed a place, but it not a figurative or spiritual place where souls burn for eternity. It is an actual place where "pagan" rituals were practiced by the "unfaithful."
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So you think that means that all sinners will be literally taken to the Valley of Hinnom? That's taking Biblical literalism a bit too far. The Valley of Hinnom is not an afterlife place, but a geographical one (that was also used as a garbage dump/mass grave), which indicates that Jesus was using the term "Gehenna" in reference to the afterlife figuratively.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No, I think this passage was taken from a sermon that Jesus delivered. The sermon was designed to convince Jews "on the fence" that if they did not "toe the line" they'd be seen (by the community) with the same degree of contempt and disrespect as those Jews who chose to be followers of Bal. In other words the passage could just as easily mean that "non-believers" were no better than those that sacrificed their children to the fires of Bal. e.g. not necessarily hell as you imagine it, but a real place associated with the unfaithful.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You are unaware of Jewish teachings on the afterlife that were common at the time. Gehenna was known at the time to not refer just to the Valley of Hinnom, but to refer to a spiritual garbage dump, and since then has been used to refer to a "place" in the afterlife for garbage of the spiritual kind in both Christianity and rabbinic Judaism.
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tantrumposted 16 years ago
@ worldscribe
Hi ! I just came from surgery. I got new breast implants. Lets see if Imadork wants to be my fan again
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO!!!! Did you see that thread last night? YIKES. Did he seriously unfan you? How are the breasts feeling? You can check out my hub on fitting a bra, just holler if you need help. Hope you feel better.
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No he didn't, but I reply. Go and check. you're going to laugh, even it's sort of sad
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. It is sad. He was "in a state" as was further evidenced by a thread called "Alcoholism". I felt badly for him. Bad hand of cards right now. Oh well, you tried to be kind.
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  When I read the comment I was shocked. It's like I'm worth nothing because I'm not a girl ?? Thus my comment
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  When I read the comment I was shocked. It's like I'm worth nothing because I'm not a girl ?? Thus my comment
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I know, I was baffled and offended myself. Backwards genderism... He's lonely, looking for female companionship only, I suppose. Your comment was appropriate. He was just messing around with everyone last night, though. He's innocuous... I hope things turn around for him.
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  He is always witty, but too much soup can help you go a bit further than you would otherwise. He will be fine, I hope we see him here today. We all lose it a bit sometimes. A kind hubber tried to help. Brenda I believe it was. Brenda and I clash on religion, but I respect her "doings"
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not going to say anything, but maybe you're a bit wrong there
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That would not be an historic event!
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  subtles ways I've seen.......I wasn't born yesterday
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Intriguing! Maybe I missed something. That would also not be historic!
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  maybe it's a personal appreciation. Sometimes I percieve more than I should. Sometimes is no good
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about that. I trust my feelings if I get a sniff of something amiss.
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  If something is amiss, you eventualy will find out . Amen !!
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Help! So confused by the above dialect. Huh?
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  tantrumposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You'll have to see for yourself. I never talk bad behind backs. Anyway it's a personal appreciation and maybe i'm wrong. Forget it
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  wordscribe41posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Okay.
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
The raw carrots are for superspiderman, the twins just want them cooked any way except how I cook them!
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Good morning all - I'm sure time zones have a lot to do with it, but I notice none of the Christian apologists, not even Mrs Atom, has made any attempt to rebut my charge that expecting everyone to fall in with their belief system is like modelling themselves on Saudi or Iran, where dissent is not an option. Lost for words?
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Pfft. I don't expect anyone to fall in with my belief system. Dissent is always an option, but in the end it still may very well matter to be on friendly terms with God.
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  If god existed.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  you can't see your spirit...but it exists
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  Gareimposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That statement is based on the assumption that it exists. =p
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I know mine does.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That is one of these veiled threats, and just another example of trying to claim universal truth for your belief system.
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  Bibowenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I did not see your earlier post. If you want to tell me what page it's on, I'll look at it. I think you're time frame is wrong. The Christian faith does not model itself based on modern autocratic states. The teaching of God's judgment goes back at least as far as Enoch and Noah. You are going to have difficulty making any kind of actual connections beyond coincidence between the Saud family and modern Christian teaching about God's judgment, and specifically, hell.
  
  It sounds like your rationale goes something like “well, you want to change your behavior because otherwise you’ll be associated with ‘those people’ and we know how they are.” This sounds like the ethic of adolescents who are trying to fit in with the group and change their behavior in order to fit in. Is your thinking that Christian teaching should automatically change in a reactionary way as autocratic states act badly?
  
  Also, I think the word "dissent" is the wrong word. You have the freedom to dissent. This forum is proof of it. But even in a democratic state, your power to dissent is limited, especially by geography. Consider your right to dissent in the Supreme Court building. Do you think you can protest while the justices are hearing cases? Go into a courtroom and call the judge a tyrant, a silencer of opinion in democratic USA. What will this get you?
  
  Furthermore, while we have the freedom to speak, that freedom must be balanced with responsibility. As Justice Holmes said, you can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theater. It sounds like you want to be absolved for speaking badly. But you and I will be held to account for our speech whether it’s good or not.
  
  Men have the freedom in this life to register their protest against God and they will have the freedom in hell to curse him for holding them responsible for what they said in this life.
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My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years ago
Love does offer discipline in love and with love.
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Methinks the lady doth protest too much
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Bibowen - I don't care what people believe provided they have the humility to acknowledge theirs is not the only opinion that carries weight. Most countries with a Christian tradition have moved away from imposing a state Christianity on the citizenry. Many Islamic states do impose sharia law. I have noticed a recent tendency, absent in my youth, for certain Christian groups to try to impose on non-Christians. That is regrettable. Religion should be a private matter, and is, in respectable societies.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This country, The United State, in particular wrote into the constitution the right for citizens to practice their faith without having to worry about the state imposing religious practices on the citizenry. In other words, faith was to be practiced openly and without worry, because the state could not and would not establish a state religion thereby restricting how the citizens are allowed to practice their faith.
  
  We started that.
  
  Apparently, some Christian sects want to do away with that and impose and declare state sponsored religion. As long, that is, as it's their form of (so called) "Christianity."
  
  The problem, beside the obvious unconstitutionality of this position is, whose version of Christianity is to be imposed?
  
  I for one would balk at snake kissing, tongue speaking, rejection of the any medicine, prohibitions against transfusion, or being required to submit myself to routine audits. I would also reject prayer five times a day, daily church services, tithes, or mandated bible classes.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You were certainly high profile Not so sure about first, though such things are open to interpretation. Scotland's history in this regard is very different from England's.
  
  Anyway, the important thing is that you keep to the principle, because it does appear to be under siege in recent times.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The first synagogue was built on this continent in the 1600s. Long before this place a was a country. I'm pretty sure Scotland didn't have one then.
  
  The principals have been under siege in the past as well. "In God We Trust" was not always on our currency; it was added in 1864. "under God" is a recent addition to the pledge of allegiance; it was added in 1954.
  
  The "God People" have no respect or understanding of the founding principals of this country. They are dangerous and deluded. They do not understand that in attempting to impose their will on the nation's laws that they are destroying the very thing that allowed them to practice here to begin with; back when the Pilgrims sought religious freedom.
  
  Some are so adamant about their "one true religion" that they fail to see that such claims make them essentially no different than the most fundamentalist Muslim. "There is only one god and HIS name is Alla!"
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think we had many Jews in the 1600s. Come to think of it, we didn't have many people at all! But it's not a competition. What matters is keeping religion out of politics, education, and especially out of government. Because of it's contentious nature and doubtful foundations, it should remain firmly in the private domains of individual believers and their churches.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that religion should be independent and distinct from politics, government, and public education. Not so much due to a contentious nature, but because allowing religion into these areas means that one religion will prevail and the others will be discouraged. The net effect; a state sponsored religion.
  
  That is not what religious freedom is about.
  
  I read somewhere that Benjamin Franklin would frequent many churches, donating to each as he visited. Yet he belonged to none of them. In his own way he was encouraging religious freedom.
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RooBeeposted 16 years ago
My Church:

I admit, I haven't read a bit of this thread. 900 posts, hopefully you can forgive me. Just thought it could use a little breather. Aaaaahhhhh.
Reverence in all you do and are a part of. Each sunset, each interaction with a fellow occupant of the planet. That's what I do to feel right with Creator. Seems more realistic than a once-per-week appointment w/ a bunch of stuffy humans!!
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  None of us said you had to keep those appointments to believe and or be saved.
  By the way awesome pic there! Really beautiful, Awesomely beautiful in fact.
  Makes you wonder how anyone looking at it could believe it just sort, happened.
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  RooBeeposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, hard to imagine it as being random! I admitted that I hadn't been following the thread, so I definitely don't proclaim to know what anyone said! I'm just being silly and sharing a stunning pic. Thanks for the compliments, and for not being too harsh on a naughty thread hijacker!!
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You'll get no argument from me on the first part, but it is a bit judgmental to call churchgoers stuffy.
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  RooBeeposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  True, true. It was meant in a jovial tone, hence the winky smiley. No harm meant.
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Fairbearposted 16 years ago
atomswifey:

The only point I am making is that God is the one who designed the system in which people, by consequence of their choices, go to Heaven or Hell. He decided what the fate would be for those who rejected Him. He decided that those people would go to Hell. He is the judge who created His system of justice and all parts thereof, including Hell.

You've already agreed with me on these points way back at the beginning of this thread. Why do you feel it is necessary to keep talking about free will? That's a different topic entirely. Why do you keep bringing it up over and over again?
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because you come across as blaming God for people going to Hell when it's their choices, not God's, that send them there.
  And God doesn't decide the fate of people who reject Him. They do. That the consequence of the decision is Hell is irrelevant. We choose our own fate. God only gives us the options. Life or death, blessing or curse.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly! And thank you Valerie as I have just back in here and read this, but I think you answered for me very well my friend.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  are you going to respond to the last post I directed to you? Or are you going to avoid it?
  
  I'm not blaming anyone. Blame is beside the point. If you think people are to blame for their going to Hell, fine by me.
  
  You twisted my words around. I'm not saying that God chose peoples fate for them. I'm saying that God decided on what the fate would be for those who chose to reject Him. He decided that his rejectors would go to Hell, and his acceptors would go to Heaven. He could have decided on ANY kind of fate for His rejectors: a big swimming pool filled with jello; a boring movie that never ended; whatever. But He decided that His rejectors would go to Hell. Do you see what I'm saying? God designed the consequence for those who reject Him.
  
  Now, again. Are you going to own up to what you said before when you said you would respond to my point? If so, please go back to my last post directed to you and respond to the whole thing.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, you said
  "I'm not saying that God chose peoples fate for them". But then you contradict your own admission by saying the latter part, "I'm saying that God decided on what the fate would be for those who chose to reject Him..."
  
  My point being that regardless of a pool of jello, a never ending movie, or hell, people choose their fate. Do they have another choice besides hell as to a pool of jello, a never ending movie? No. There is just ONE choice to make faith/belief or not, heaven or hell.
  
  Being that is the case,
  People do send themselves to either upon making that decision, that choice.
  
  Fate is something destined
  to decree or designate beforehand, God has not designated or decreed who is to go to Hell.
  He left that up to us here on earth to decide what it is our fate in the future is to be.
  
  Fate is also: an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future.
  It is not inevitable what may happen to you or anyone else for that matter concerning after you die and are facing God. What is inevitable is that the choices you make here will affect your destiny, your fate there.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  YOU'VE ALREADY AGREED WITH ME!!!!! why do you keep arguing with me?
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Did I??
  I was under the impression that I had not.
  You first painted the picture that God sends people to hell. That He determines their fate in other words.
  He does not and therefor, I am not in agreement with you on that.
  
  You further said that any God that would do that is evil. But I argued that point as well. Pointing out that it is not evil to condemn people to a punishment that they themselves have chosen. Because, God is just.
  
  You are the one who backed yourself into a corner there. Rather than just stating that God "throws" people into hell, rather a physical meaning, and leaving it at that, you chose to go on and elaborate on the issue by saying He is accountable or responsible for it. ("Any God doing that is evil") And again, He is not, responsible or accountable for it, you or anyone who chooses to disbelieve and dies in that is however.
  
  That is exactly what I have stated all along.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I have, as a side note, stated my opinion that God is evil for sending people to Hell.
  
  But that is not the main point of this thread. That is only my opinion.
  
  You have agreed with the main point of this thread, as I have shown you in my last post.
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  Bibowenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It's probably because of your failure to deal with the free will issue which makes havoc of your viewpoint. Actually most of what you say above is correct. But between "He decided what the fate would be for those who rejected him" and "He decided that those people would go to Hell" there is the human element that you conventionally leave out. And that is the element of free will. After God designed the system and before God sentences men and women to hell, there is the choice people make for or against God.
  
  If I go to heaven, it will be because I made a choice to believe God and not people like you; if I reject God and listen to people like you, then I have chosen hell.
  
  To paraphrase the abortuary crowd: it's a choice.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I have never once disagreed with the free will point. I personally don't believe in it, but I have never stated that or made an issue of it.
  
  You also have agreed with me as to the point of this thread.
  
  It is you and other Christians who feel the necessity to bring up the free will point to accompany the fact that God sentences people to Hell. And as far as I'm concerned, you can have it. I won't argue with it at all because it in no way changes the point I'm making in this thread.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it does change the point you're making with the thread. You say that Christianity teaches that God sends people to Hell. The people who are in positions to know better what Christianity teaches insist that is patently false.
  
  Christianity doesn't teach that God sends people to Hell, but that we do it on our own.
  
  You cannot say, "this is what Christianity really teaches" while ignoring other critical aspects of Christianity that are in fact very relevant to the topic.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You have no place to talk. You have backed out of your commitment, you have defaulted on your own words. You have yet again conveniently chosen not to respond to the one post I made that outlindes my point the clearest. It was addressed to you, and you completely ignored it. Just like you've done time and time again. You lack accountability, your actions don't match up with your words, and that speaks louder than anything else you say.
  
  You didn't answer my post because you couldn't bring yourself to do it. Now you're trying to weasel your way out of it again.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Very well done! excellent!
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes exellent. And case closed for this Christian.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Just saying "case closed" does not do it guys.
  
  You are not the judge of that.
  
  Isn't there something in your book about ... oh that's right - you don't need to follow that.... You are perfect.... You get to judge.........
  
  God is not happy with you..............
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atomswifeyposted 16 years ago
Fairbear:

For now I am done doing any more debating and or arguing with you on this topic.

I have stated my position regarding it very well I think. That fate our fate, is to be destined by our choices. Not God's. He would much rather have us in Heaven with Him. Or atleast have those that believe in Him, those He cleanses through their faith and His forgiveness to be in Heaven with Him.

Can't blame Him there really, look at all the problems sin and mans living in it has brought into our own world.

anyway, I am tired now and have other things to do. So good night all.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  How convenient. You duck out right now and address all of my posts except the one in which I show you that you agreed with me in your first post.
  
  Talk about a double standard!!!
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Fairbearposted 16 years ago
Looks like you've joined ranks with Valerie on picking and choosing which points to address and which to ignore.

The difference is that you have already agreed with me and I can pull it up and show it to you.
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quietnessandtrustposted 16 years ago
OK, so after all of this we know that some believe God is evil for making hell or sending someone to it.
Some do not.
Some think people chose to go there themselves.
Some think no hell exists.
Some think wicked people are annihilated.
Some think all will be reconciled and in heaven.

Some do not think!!!

Can we close the thread now?

The horse has left the building in a body bag !
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quietnessandtrustposted 16 years ago

sounds like fairbear is a bit "hell bent" on trying to get others to think God is evil.

He must really think God is really evil.....Ok we know that.
It's evil to beat the dead horse in the body bag too.
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
Still, you are ignoring the fact that God doesn't want to send people to Hell, as demonstrated in the parable of the prodigal son and of the good shepherd. No more than I would want to kick a child out of my home.

You think God is evil for exercising the rights that come with, oh, divine home ownership, the rights that come with being Ruler of the Universe.

I'm saying God is merciful for exercising restraint and granting a whole lifetime of opportunities for sinners to make amends and accept the invitation to Heaven. But if you choose to persistently break the rules of the house, you choose the consequences, which may mean not being allowed in.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I do think God is evil for sending people to Hell --or however you want to put it.
  
  But that is just my opinion. Yours is different. I can live with that.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I would believe God was evil if God wanted to send people to Hell. Christianity teaches the opposite, however.
  
  I also believe that a God who kidnaps souls is evil.
  
  Your idea of a "good" God would be a kidnapper.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that would work nicely in a court of law. "Your Honor, my client is guilty of murder, but I promise you he didn't want to do it."
  
  And say what you want, but kidnapping is SO much better than setting someone on fire to burn for eternity. But that again is just my opinion.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Is it? You'd be like the person who sets his or her own self on fire and then complains about getting burned.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  what??
  
  Your second sentence is completely unrelated to your first, and also completely unrelated to that which it is commenting on. If you think kidnapping is worse than burning someone alive, then please explain how.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  But God is not the one doing the burning. God gives us the options, gives us free will, creates us with the brains so we have a reasonable chance of choosing correctly, and provides a way to be reconciled if we choose wrongly. Kidnapping is worse than that.
  
  If we reject all of that, it's our own fault, just as if a person rejects all instruction to not set themselves on fire, it's their fault. Nobody goes to Heaven or Hell against their own will. If they do, there is no justice and no responsibility for their choices.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  remember when you said this:
  
  "God has a right to decide whether you stay or go. If God throws people out of his own realm, that's God's own prerogative, and you've no right to call God evil any more than you'd have a right to judge a homeowner as evil for chasing a burglar or an abusive family member off. "
  
  ?
  In this analogy, you use the verbs, "throw" and "chase," to describe what God does to people who He doesn't want in His kingdom. Then you defend God's right to do so. Now you're saying that God has no part in a person going to Hell. Which is it?
  
  God created Hell, so He is the one doing the burning. If He's not, then who is? Mankind didn't create Hell. Satan didn't create Hell.
  
  Valerie, is God the judge? Huh?
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  All souls come from god or the super soul, where all souls are one.
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Fairbearposted 16 years ago
And finally, as the originator of this incredibly long thread, I consider my point to be successfully made.

Everyone who has ventured to debate with me at any length has agreed with and/or confirmed my point.

The only people who have disagreed are those who offered no argument at all, and posted only one or two comments.
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  Bibowenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This reminds me of Dubya's "Mission Accomplished" speech "after" the Iraq War.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  "Everyone who has ventured to debate with me at any length has agreed with and/or confirmed my point."
  
  I did ?
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You were never in debate with me. You don't believe in Hell, so that sets you outside the framework of the debate.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  He was dilusional too.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That's so mature of you. Namecalling. Impressive.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  "You don't believe in Hell..."
  
  I don't ???
  
  I told you I believe that the incorrigibles will be destroyed and you know that is what I said man.
  
  The KING is speaking:
  "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear GOD who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehinnom."
  Matt 10:28
  
  Destroy: Greek ~ ἀπόλλυμι ~ apollymi ~
  1) to destroy
  
  a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless
  
  Not real hard to understand that one is it?
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You've stated your annihilation belief over and over. You've made a very distinct statement about it. And you've specifically said that it is not the same thing as eternal damnation in Hell. Therefore, you and I aren't talking about the same thing.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Listen...if one is destroyed and gone, done, soul and body K~POOT!! toast!!!
  
  Is that not "ETERNAL"...as in "they are gone forever and always"
  
  It is everlasting...don't you see...eternally gone forever and always.
  
  YOU ARE NO MORE !!!!
  
  Maybe you cannot hear me in the midst of all this ?
  
  I am talking about eternal and forever...you are GONE.
  
  If I burn down the house and it's gone forever, a 3 year old gets that.
  
  I am not sure many believers understand what the word "DESTROY" means, nor do they really look at this verse really hard and ask, "how is a body and a soul destroyed?"
  
  I wish they would and your topic would have lasted 7 minutes!!!
  Rather, fear GOD who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehinnom."
  Destroy: Greek ~ ἀπόλλυμι ~ apollymi ~
  1) to destroy
  
  a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless.........does "abolish"
  
  mean anything to you believers?...Yes You !
  
  how about "put an end to"....
  "entirely".....WAKE UP!!!
  
  Being annihilated is WORSE than eternal torment because you can't even exist anymore!!!
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not even sure if you're arguing with me anymore. Are you?
  
  Anyway, I'll spell it out to you. The Hell I'm talking about is not the same as the Hell you're talking about, because in the one I'm talking about, people don't cease to exist. They continue to exist forever in a state of unspeakable anguish.
  
  That's why you and I are not in debate about the topic of this thread. You're definition of Hell does not fall within the framework of the debate.
  
  Ok?
  
  I thought we cleared this up way back at the beginning. Yeah, we did.
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  My Friend Shiylohposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  "Everyone who has ventured to debate with me at any length has agreed..."
  "The only people who have disagreed..."
  
  ? Everyone ?
  Perhaps in your imagination sir. Everyone is an all inclusive word and cannot exclude anyone in the English language sir.
  
  This one did not agree with you and debated extensively.
  And no, you did not forget.
  
  People who chose not to argue, but only leave a comment,
  are sovereign enough to do so sir.
  They do not owe anyone an explanation.
  Not everyone agrees with you sir, and that is ok.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Of course you must know I was only talking about the people who have posted to this thread and also the people I've talked to elsewhere about this topic. I wasn't talking about everyone in the world. Sorry that wasn't obvious to you.
  
  And if you have disagreed with me, or debated against my point in any way, I surely could not tell. You never mentioned Hell or the means by which a person goes there. The way you talk is very unclear and enigmatic. You didn't even seem to be in the same conversation with the rest of us. The things you were talking about were unrelated to the main topic of debate. If they were related, you surely didn't make that very clear. All you seemed to be interested in was painting yourself up as some kind of superior, wise person who speaks strangely and relates everything to love. I never considered your babble to be in disagreement with me.
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wordscribe41posted 16 years ago
Congrats, Fairbear... Only 929 posts later. I agree, case closed with the ample evidence above.
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
Baloney. I still disagree, because I think you draw a woefully wrong conclusion. It does not follow at all that God is evil for holding people accountable for their own choices and letting them, if they choose, face the eternal consequences of their actions.
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quietnessandtrustposted 16 years ago
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Shaul Steinposted 16 years ago
Interesting that God says He will NOT ALWAYS strive with mankind because he reaches a point of incorrigibility and he has no turning back after that.
Then and only then God says He just blinds them all~together.

God says "love is patient and long~suffering".....not a forever thing.

We do the same thing, our patience is just short lived.

I do also know women who have prayed for their husbands for 20, 30, 40 years before they stopped acting like a fool.

So the part about "giving them over completely to the evil they enjoy"
Like a parent does with the stubborn, stiff~necked, rebellious child who insists on having what mom and dad say no to for months and they just say "you want it, you got it"...but DO NOT come crying to me when it wrecks your life!

this comes after a looooooooooooong struggle and then it's over, finalized !!!
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
God does not say anything. Complete silence. War after war horror after horror this god you talk about is nowhere to be seen.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Strange you mention that.
  
  He is silent to those who do NOT listen.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  HE talks to you? Do tell.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ask Him to speak to you yourself.
  
  ? If you will listen ?
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with Shaul, god talks to me as well and I need to remove the clutter and listen.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The only people I know of who hear (disembodied) voices are typically deemed to have mental health issues.
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  Jeramiposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I've never meat anyone that didn't have some sort of mental issue.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Right ~ the only people "you" know.
  
  These voices are voices none the less to them and spirits that are evil can speak.
  Don't be naive enough to think that a voice needs a body to speak.
  
  These who are driven crazy by the voices, still hear real voices.
  
  It's very sad indeed. I too have met many of them.
  
  Interesting that you left out
  
  the quote from Mohitmisra:
  "I agree with Shaul, god talks to me as well and I need to remove the clutter and listen."
  
  ? You ask him no question ?
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The only "people" I know? You sure know a lot for not knowing at all.
  
  Funny how someone who apparently has issues with reality claims that I am naive. LOL indeed!
  
  Those driven crazy by the voices they hear are suffering from bad brain chemistry; that's all.
  
  This is why, if I were to choose any Christian sect to follow, it would be Eastern Orthodox. They reject The Book of Revelation. The author was a raving lunatic.
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atomswifeyposted 16 years ago
Fairbear:

You pointed out earlier that God could have chosen a pool of jello, or a never ending movie etc.

So lets say that is what hell is, a pool of jello. Will you believe in Him now? Will you make that choice for him or the pool of jello?

You see, it makes no difference. God set the consequence for our choice to make it so that no man would ever want to go there.

It is a choice no matter how you try and twist it.
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  We are in hell is something one needs to understand and heaven is a dimension where one is the Light or god.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This is hell??
  OK, lets say you are right.
  Then what is it we need salvation for? If there is no real consequences for what we do here?
  
  There are 53 mentions of hell as being a real place in the Bible. Is the Bible misleading then?
  
  Was Jesus Himself lying about hell?
  
  Were His disciples?
  
  Might as well throw out all of the book of Revelation then.
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Salvation is going to heaven from this hell.
  
  If we were in paradise there would be no need of salvation or Moksha- liberation from the cycle of birth and death from the body which is not spared of pain.
  
  I know the Light and my work is ranked alongside the Bible and Buddhist philosophy also believes we are in hell.
  
  Murder, rape, loot , pain ,wars, hunger,famine, disease ,this is hell.
  
  "In this world we are all referring,
  To sparks of happiness and flames of suffering."
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  *shakes*
  
  Revelation 20:14-15 (King James Version)
  
  14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
  
  15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
  
  Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
  
  Hmmm, after the body dies, where does the soul go? (of the nonbeliever that is)
  
  Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
  
  Thrown where?? I guess according to you, back down here???
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes back here, I am not coming back.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  *shakes*
  
  Revelation 20:14-15 (King James Version)
  
  14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
  
  15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
  
  Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
  
  Hmmm, after the body dies, where does the soul go? (of the nonbeliever that is)
  
  Mark 9:47 says, "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell."
  
  Thrown where?? I guess according to you, back down here???
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  In case you didn't see it, look back a little ways to where I reposted the comment you left at the beginning of this thread. In it you agreed with my point very clearly. DO you want me to repost it again?
  
  I see...so God's tactic was to scare everyone into choosing HIm? That's essentially what you just said. I wouldn't want anyone to choose me just because they were afraid of the alternative. That wouldn't be genuine.
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Jeramiposted 16 years ago
I think that we get to choose what kind of mental issue that we want to have ????
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tantrumposted 16 years ago
I love mental issues, specially in this forum
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arun kuruvillaposted 16 years ago
why you people talks so much about god and hell!
do you think there exists hell and evil?
what is hell?
what is evil?
can you explain
is it god, who creates hell and evil?
if not then who?
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Okay Mark, I editted my post to say case closed for me.

So with all your wisdom what do you think, do people send themselves to hell or does God send them?

The point that I am making is that the question is immaterial to anyone that does not believe in the Christian God.

If Fairbear was actually inerested in trying to find out what Christians believe he would have phrased it as a question like this.

Do Christians believe that people send themselves to hell or does God sends them?

Fairbear has received the answer to that question umpteen times in many ways in this thread. The fact that he cannot accept that proves the purpose of his entire thread was just meant to fight with Christians. Because Fairbear has be told that Christians believe that people send themselves to hell many times I suggest that Christians just avoid this thread. Fairbear or anyone can believe whatever dilusion they wish. They have been told different. All we can do is inform them of the truth. If they can't accept it then the case is basically closed.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  When a person dies and goes to Hell, there has to be some way for them to get there, don't you think? Somehow they have to get from just being dead to being dead and in Hell. There's only two ways for this to happen. Either the soul of the person goes directly to Hell automatically by natural order, in other words, by God's design. Or God takes the soul and places it in Hell.
  
  Everything leading up to that point is irrelevant as far as my point is concerned. The placing of a person into the place called Hell, as a consequence of said person's decisions, choices, etc. etc. is the only aspect of any of this that I am focused on. All you are doing, and all anyone else has done, is go on and on about WHY people go to Hell. I'm only interested in the actuality of HOW their soul gets to Hell.
  
  I don't know why you have such a hard time seeing this.
  
  Souls of people go to Hell FOR WHATEVER REASON either by divine intervention, or automatic natural procession (God's design). Period.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Everything leading up to that point is not irrelevant though. You are trying to prove that the Christian God either made a mistake or is evil. But we are trying to show you that is not true because we have a choice. Hell was made for the devil, his demons and followers. We know from 1 John 2 that anyone that denies Jesus Christ is an antichrist and there are many antichrists.
  
  1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour."
  
  1 John 2:22 "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son."
  
  On judgement day we simply follow who we have been following.
  
  The consolation is that there is forgiveness everyday to anyone that asks for it in Jesus Christ's name.
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
God is the judge, makes the rules, and sets the consequences, but also offers forgiveness. We're the ones who choose to break the rules, refuse forgiveness, and therefore face the consequences.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. God sets the consequences. Meaning, God made it so that people who rejected Him would go to Hell when they died.
  
  That's all I'm saying.
  
  If it weren't for these actions on God's part, Hell would not be a consequence at all. It is by His design that it is. In this way, God is the one who facilitates the movement of a person's soul into the place called Hell. Even if this purely mechanical action is the only part that God plays in a person going to Hell, it is still Him who makes it happen.
  
  Mankind may choose for it to happen, But it is God who makes it happen.
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Valerie Fposted 16 years ago
God did not intend for it to happen, however. There is a difference. God created Hell for the Devil and his angels.

People naturally go where they choose to place their true allegiance.

Answer my questions. Is a homeowner evil for confronting a burglar. Is it evil for a loving and long-suffering parent to kick out a spouse who is abusing a child, or to kick out an adult child who chooses to persistently defy the rules of the house? Is it evil for a loving parent to refuse to bail a criminal child out of jail?
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  If God did not intend for it to Happen, then He made a mistake. "Whoops, I didn't mean for THAT to happen!" Some God.
  He may not have created Hell for humans, but He DID choose to use Hell for humans. He could have done anything He wanted, but He decided to use Hell.
  
  You say: "People naturally go...."
  Didn't God create the natural order? So much so that "natural" equates to "divinely orchestrated"?
  
  To all of your questions, my answer is no. But to the question, is God evil for sending humans to burn in torment for ever and ever? My answer is a resounding yes.
  
  And I would relate it to the Roman Empire during the time when Christians were being tortured and killed because of their beliefs. Wouldn't you say that was evil? Or is it that just because the Romans had the power to do it, that makes it ok?
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  But you are assuming that all Christian teaching is that Hell is a literal place of eternal burning, and that also is false. Some Christians believe that, true, but not all do. Whatever Hell is, it is eternal estrangement from God and all goodness. Oh yes, completely refuting your insistence that God is evil, nothing evil can exist in Heaven.
  
  Also, there is a difference between having power and having the right. The ancient Romans had the power to persecute Christians, yes, but not the right. God has the power and the right. Nobody is evil just for acting within their rights.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, see, now that changes things.
  
  If Hell is a place where one can have a reasonably good time, then I don't think it's evil for God to send people there - If they can be happy and content to some satisfying degree.
  
  But if Hell is eternal anguish, suffering, and pain, to the degree of being unbearable, then I stick by my assessment. A God who sent anyone to that place is nothing but evil and malicious.
  
  Which of those fits your understanding of Hell? If it's the first, then you and I can stop right here. If it's the second, then nothing has changed.
  
  You see, my whole case for stating that God is evil rests on the nature of Hell. I think the second option I listed above, which is the most common in my experience, greatly outweighs any wrongdoing that can be committed by mankind.
  
  But you see, this is just my opinion, and that's the reason why it is not the main point of this thread. Opinions cannot really be debated. I have mine, you have yours. End of story.
  
  But they are fun to talk about.
  
  Yes, yes. I know that Christianity doesn't present its God as being evil, and teaches, despite any appearance to the contrary, that He is supremely good with no evil in Him.
  
  But that doesn't match up with the rest of Christian teachings. I'm not doing this to prove anything about what Christianity teaches, because it will teach anything that is convenient and fitting for what it wants to accomplish. That's the luxury of mythmaking. Just throw in whatever ingredient you want, and pay no mind to whether or not it contradicts any of the other ingredients.
  
  No, that's not my intention. My intention is to expose just one of those contradictions. And I have successfully done just that by proving, and receiving acknowledgment for proving, that God plays a necessary role in people going to Hell, a role which if withdrawn would prevent anyone from going to Hell. That it is by God's design that souls go to Hell at all.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
Fine example of fear as motivation and the threat of hell. Not from the old book either!

Luke 12:5 says, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That's right Earnest...deal with it...it is TRUTH.
  
  The KING is speaking:
  "Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear GOD who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehinnom."
  Matt 10:28
  Rather, fear GOD who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehinnom."
  Destroy: Greek ~ ἀπόλλυμι ~ apollymi ~
  1) to destroy
  
  a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless.........does "abolish"
  
  mean anything to you believers?...Yes You !
  
  how about "put an end to"....
  "entirely".....WAKE UP!!!
  
  I am not sure many believers understand what the word "DESTROY" means, nor do they really look at this verse really hard and ask, "how is a body and a soul destroyed?"
  
  Utter ANNIHILATION is not a pretty thing.
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is impossible for god to destroy a soul as its a part of him. He loves every soul very , very dearly and waits patiently for them to join him.
  
  This philosophy is wrong.
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  Shaul Steinposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well you can take that up with Messiah becasue He said it.
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No he said nothing. Never has. Nothing has nothing to say.
  No proof of god inside or out.
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I am the Messiah and this philosophy is wrong. Or rather once again you cannot take things literally or you lose out on its meaning.
  "When thy eye be single" Jesus doesn't mean you need to have only one eye to enter the kingdom of god.
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
There is something to this argument in my view. we humans seem to be connected scientifically speaking to all things in so many ways.

Spiritually sentient life has a lot of mystery around the potential of soul and it's part in the relation to self and other than self, even if soul is seen more archetypically than religiously this still works.
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  We are connected together as the human species.
  
  Deeper than that blood relationship and friendship.
  
  Deeper the light, love, super intelligent, super entity
  
  What we term as God.
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  earnestshubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I understand.
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earnestshubposted 16 years ago
As the bulldust gets thicker, the disgusting moralizing gets more bizarre, the invisible deity gets louder and finally like a spoilt 2 year old declares OK I will kill you forever and ever and ever and.....

Even more mad is that this childish, stupid pathetic little psychopath entity ia a god who is gonna kill all who don't believe as you do?
What an ego! Not bloody likely!
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  They have no idea about god , if they did they would never threaten you as they would know god is within you as well and that they are threatening god indirectly.
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Moosataposted 16 years ago
"God is........." (don't insert anything), and we should cease to speak because when we describe God we do so in our own image. How arrogant of humanity!!
I am, You are, God is.
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  pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That was perfectly put.
  
  If people want to understand God they can meditate, pray, serve others, appreciate beauty. Babbling on about God perverts the subject matter.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Yeah the Book of Revelation is in the Eastern Orthodox Bible.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
Besides hell is referred to in more than just the Book of Revelation. The author was John, one of Jesus' original apostles.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ah. Well that settles it. I wouldn't consider being a member of a church that espoused the ravings of a lunatic.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, there's a great deal of dispute over which "John" wrote the Book of Revelation. Or didn't you know that? Here's a direct quote from the source.
  
  "In the case of Revelation, many modern scholars agree that it was written by a separate author (than the gospel author)...with some parts possibly dating to Nero's reign in the early 60s."
  
  This would mean that the author, if the scholars are correct, was not only not a contemporary of Jesus, but could not have met him or known him.
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  "Ancient tradition attributes all the books to John the Apostle". I believe that quote. "all the books" is referring to 1, 2 and 3 John plus the Book of Revelation.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Tradition is hardly the same thing as fact.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You are a biblical scholar with a doctorate in theology?
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  Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No but it just makes sense to believe ancient tradition from those that were contemporaries to the first apostles that past it down to us rather than believing someone that came later that tries to re-write history. It's just common sense.
  
  "Ancient tradition attributes all the books to John the Apostle" is a quote from the web site that you posted. This one,
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship … nine_works
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rosariomontenegroposted 16 years ago
Congratulations Fairbear for reaching the 1000 posts with a subject of discussion, not a game of words. Quite a feat, and you are a newcomer in HubPages! Chapeau.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
  
  But actually, I'm not a newcomer. I just haven't been on Hubpages in a long time, and I used to use a different account.
  
  I appreciate the congrats, though.
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dahoglundposted 16 years ago
The point of this topic eludes me. God made hell since God made everything. Whether you believe in hell literally or as a metaphor the point of the concept is to behave and you wont go there..Free will gives one the power to avoid hell. What's the problem with that?
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  My intentions in starting this thread was to show that, in Christianity, God is partially responsible for people going to Hell. Christians try to make it seem like their God has absolutely nothing to do with souls going to Hell, and thereby try to preserve the image of their God as being supremely good and loving. I think that is dishonest and misleading, because when you look at the facts put into place within Christian theology, there is no way for God not to have a necessary, pivotal role in people going to Hell. It is by His design that it happens at all. My intention was to shed the deceptive veil off of this obvious fact, and force Christians to stand by their beliefs even when those beliefs have a negative appearance.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  God in creating hell does not have a pivotal role in people going there.
  God in giving us the decision does not make Him a pivotal part in people going there.
  It is the decision that is the pivotal point there!
  
  Look at this way, in our society we are given the choice to do good, and obey the laws or we go to prison/jail.
  
  Is the fact that a jail exists the pivotable point?
  No, it is rather the individuals choice in either adhering to the law or breaking the law, to make whether one goes or not.
  Is it the person or peoples, who created the laws, which would be considered a pivotable role?
  No, rather it is the one who breaks those laws which has the pivotable role.
  
  The law is there, God created those laws true. But is that or does that make Him the pivotable role? No.
  Since we in the pivotable role have the choice to tilt the scale in the opposite direction of hell.
  
  We are at the pivot point.
  We are at its center.
  God is on the right of it, hell is on the left.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OK. I've got to stop you RIGHT THERE! God makes the rules, god says don't break them or else and the "else" is hell.
  
  But he does not have a pivotal role? HE is the role!
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you! sanity speaks.
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  God did not say that!
  I break Gods rules.
  Every man woman and child does.
  
  YOU are the role!
  Man is the role!
  God sits on the right
  Hell is on the left
  You sit in the center of that pivot.
  It is by YOUR choice that you veer either to the right or left. Not GODS!
  How can HE then be that pivotable role?
  
  You take a scale
  Is it in of itself the pivot? How does the scales existence play a pivotable role?
  It does not.
  It is what is placed into that scale or on that scale and to what degree it is filled that becomes that point. You sit in the center of that scale. It will pivot according to your actions and or belief, not Gods actions or beliefs, Yours. That is the source of the pivot.
  Why it would even pivot in the first place boggles my mind as does it Gods!
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So if I tell my kids that if they engage in crime and refuse to make amends, I will refuse to enable them, kick them out, and not bail them out of jail, I'm evil for setting and enforcing the consequences of evil behavior?
  
  God does have a role in making the rules and setting the consequences. This does not in any way mitigate our own responsibilities. The rules are set for our own good. We still choose to follow or break them, choose to accept or reject the chances to make amends, and so the responsibility is entirely ours. Your attempt at "showing" Christians to be dishonest falls short. In fact, your persistence in misrepresenting Christian teaching is dishonest.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I never did get your answer on what you thought Hell was. Ever since you said it wasn't to be taken literally, I lost sight of where you stand. Go back the last of my comments to you that you ignored, and clue me in. I also explained in that post how I am not trying to prove anything about Christian teachings. So you can stop taking that angle.
  
  If you gave your kids a choice between a poisoned candy bar and a safe one, you would be evil. Even if you told your kids thoroughly that the candy bar was poisoned. The mere fact that you created the chance for them to get poisoned makes you evil. They might choose that candy bar unknowingly, or maybe even knowingly, and die. But it would have never happened if you didn't give them the option.
  
  God didn't have to send people to Hell. He could have dispensed with them in any way He wanted. But His way of handling it was to send them to Hell. Without His design, there would be no people going to Hell.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes you did. I said Hell is permanent estrangement from God. Repeatedly.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No I didn't.
  
  You didn't tell me what the nature of this estrangement is.
  
  Is it bearable? Can I be happy and content therein? Is it painful and miserable?
  
  This is what I was asking you.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why would anyone be happy permanently separated from light and love, left in the company of only the very choices they made which keep them out of that light and love?
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you're going to evade a direct answer, like usual.
  
  Don't you see why the nature of Hell applies here?
  
  If I can be reasonably content in Hell, I don't see any reason to avoid it.
  But if it is unbearably painful, that's another story.
  
  I'm asking you to be direct about your beliefs. Tell me what you think Hell is like, without just asking me another question. Then I'll know where you stand.
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  Valerie Fposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What I think Hell is is irrelevant, aside from that it definitely is permanent estrangement from God and from all goodness, in the eternal company of only one's sins and regrets. I wondered why you would ask such a question as whether it's possible to be happy in the absence of all goodness. To me, that's kind of silly question. Of course no one can be happy there. Now there may be some people who don't want to be happy, but I can't account for their choices.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  There ya go. She evaded the question.
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  Fairbearposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The nature of Hell is very relevant.
  
  If you think it is painful, unbearable, tormenting --like most Christians think --then you and I are discussing exactly what I thought we were.
  
  But if you think it's something less than that, that changes things.
  
  You just can't bring yourself to describe what you believe. That's what's going on here. If you weren't uncomfortable with your image of Hell, you'd have no problem giving me a clear definition of it --according to what I'm really asking you. And you know what I'm asking you, but you don't want to answer me.
  
  Come on. Tell me directly. The only direct thing you've said is that no one can be happy there. Is that all Hell is? Unhappiness? Give me some more concrete describers. Or do you not want to reveal that part of your belief system? You just want to glaze it over and beat around the bush?
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LiamBeanposted 16 years ago
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  And you know what? Jesus Himself said that we are to fear not man who can only take the body, but we are to fear God who has the power to damn the soul.
  wow, makes you wonder how so many do not have that fear.
  Bet it makes God wonder the same thing!
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Wasn't Jesus God? Was he speaking about himself in the third person; you know, like Bob Dole?
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
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  atomswifeyposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was and is God yes in the flesh.
  God being God manifested Himself into the person of Jesus.
  They are two and yet one.
  Like it is in this analogy:
  A frosted jelly donut
  
  The three are seperate (the frosting, the jelly and the donut) yet combined to make a whole.
  
  The same is true of God
  He is father
  He is Son
  He is Holy Spirit
  The three are seperate yet combined to make the whole.
  
  Jesus the person in the flesh worshiped God the father as we should. He obeyed God the fathers commandments. God Himself in the person of Jesus showed us how we being born of flesh have those same capabilities.
  
  In the words I gave regarding fear of the father, Jesus/God was showing where our fear SHOULD lie as opposed to fearing MAN.
  He also demonstrated that our bodies are only a temporary house for the soul. And that although another person can take the body and kill it, he does not have the power to do anything with the soul. Therefor it is not man we should fear but the God who does have that power.
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  LiamBeanposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You know, I find your preachy-ness offensive. I've studied the three major religions for the last two decades. I probably know more about all three than you do the one.
  
  So kindly lighten up.
  reply report

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Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

wordscribe41 wrote:

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Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

wordscribe41 wrote:

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