Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

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f@bianiposted 15 years ago
With all due respect to your narrowness, I think Articles like yours should be banned.

I don't even feel like expressing why I think that away, it is a waste of time and you are already brain washed.

God bless the ignorance of people, which is never to be underestimated.

Albina
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your lack of sense of humour is astounding !! And that speaks of ignorance
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Will Apseposted 15 years ago
Luckily, Hell is one of those human inventions we are genuinely safe from.
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Fairbearposted 15 years ago
adamswifey:

You keep repeating the same things. There is no need for you to outline the entire Christian faith every time you make a post. I am thoroughly inundated by the Christian faith. I know it backwards a forwards. I've thought it through meticulously more times than I can possibly remember, and that is precisely the reason why it makes no sense to me. Anyone to whom it does make sense is ignoring parts of it. I look at the whole thing plainly and am honest with myself about what I see. What I see is a system of beliefs with no validity, which is held together by deliberate ignorance. So you can stop preaching the same sermon over and over as though no one has ever heard it. You made your point a long time ago and I countered it. End of story. Stop restating the same point as though somehow it's going to receive a different reaction if you state it enough times. I get it already. You think that a God who sends good people to burn in torment for eternity is a good God. That's all you're really saying. Well, good for you. I disagree. I think that God is the most evil thing imaginable. We have a difference of opinion.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In which case you don't know Christianity at all. Allow me to repeat. God doesn't send good people to Hell. God does not send anyone to Hell. Sinful people, some of whom may have delusions of their own righteousness and imagine they're good enough to not need God are quite capable of going to Hell on their own.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You've ignored my original post. I proved that God does send people to Hell. Unless you can counter that proof in some visible way, your statements to the contrary are empty. You fail to explain yourself. You're just stating what you believe without showing the reason in it. You're not presenting an argument, you're only presenting your position. You're like a defense attorney whose entire case rests on one solitary sentence--"Your honor, my client is innocent."-- as though those words alone were enough to win the case.
  
  Yes, I understand your position. You don't think God sends people to Hell. But if you want to go beyond a mere statement of your beliefs to present evidence of them being true, like I've done, you're going to have to give me a little more than just your word.
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  rednckwmnposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry, I missed it. How did you PROVE that people go to hell, at all? I dont know any dead people....I would like actual evidence, please, of someone dead, in hell.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I only proved that within Christian theology God sends people to Hell. Not in reality.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You did not. You only insisted that the God the Christians worship sends people to Hell, despite evidence from Christian scriptures which state that if anything sends a person to Hell at all, it is the person's own sins, own choices, and that God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. If God wanted to send people to Hell, there'd have been no Jesus.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  why did he create hell then, in the first place ??
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Here again. You say I proved nothing but you left out your explanation. Do I need to repost my entire original post? It's there case and point. If you say what I posted is not proof, then show how it is not proof. Don't just say it's wrong without giving your case. I gave my case in thorough detail. I spelled it out in logical, easily understood details.
  
  And if your case is merely a reference to passages in the Bible that allude to God's desire for all people to be saved from Hell, then all you're doing is referring to someone else with the same position as yours. Whoever wrote that stuff agrees with you, sure, but they, like you, did not explain themselves. All they said was "God wishes the best for everyone." That's just like a serial killer telling his victims before he kills them, "I really wish the best for you." It's just words without any regard to the actual conditions in place.
  
  Do you need me to restate my case for you? I will be glad to do so. Maybe then you'll figure out what your case is and then explain it to me instead of resting on empty proclamations. Address the issue directly and outline your case. Please.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Fairbear, you said you proved that Christianity believes God sends people to Hell, but you cited no Scripture, no proof from Christian teachings themselves.
  
  I cited Scripture proving that Christians in fact do NOT believe God sends people to Hell, but that people do that to themselves.
  
  You didn't prove anything, because your logic in proving the Christian God sends people to Hell was unsound to begin with.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  True, I quoted no scripture. But you cannot say my logic is unsound. Tell me if you agree that these two facts are found within Christian theology --
  
  1) God created Hell
  2) God created the rules
  
  You see, I already understood these two facts to be integral to Christianity. Do you agree or disagree? If you agree, then there is no need to dig up the scripture to back the two facts up because we both agree that they are there. Tell me if you agree or disagree and we'll proceed from there. Fair?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible explains all in perfect detail, maybe you should read it sometime?
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blue dogposted 15 years ago
when i die, i hope he sends me first class. the older i get, the more convinced i become that there's just not enough leg room in coach.
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Fairbearposted 15 years ago
Shaul Stein:
You're right. I took your posts as another argument against my case, when they were actually just your take on the whole issue at hand. I also thought you were arguing with me because of the general tone of our interactions on my previous thread. I'm relieved to find you and I aren't arguing at all. I think your ideas are interesting and much more founded in logic than mainstream Christianity is.
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  Shaul Steinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes it takes a tornado to clear the air eh?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm curious. You've said that you don't call yourself a Christian. But I've gotten the impression that you are one. What, then, are your thoughts/beliefs about Jesus?
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  Shaul Steinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  First, I believe in Mashiach because He appeared to me about 30 years ago. After that long in study regarding what He taught, I accept what He said and did as far as what is written, knowing that not all that was written was all that He said or did. “There are also many other things which Yahshua did, which if they would all be written, I suppose that even the world itself wouldn't have room for the books that would be written.” John 21:25. I take what was taught at face value when He spoke plainly which was most of the time. I am failure with Hebrew idioms as well, so I do not misunderstand what is being said when He spoke in hard statements to comprehend, as I do not look at it from a Greek mindset which leads to much confusion and weird conclusions.
  
  I know that He did not come to start a new “religion” and is ashamed at what is proclaimed today by many Pollyanna plastic placating pastors who make everything seeker friendly and all inclusive so everyone feels comfortable and the building is full. Mashiach on the other hand constantly said things that people could not handle and they left off following Him, and He never chased them down or sent them a plea to return. He just said that those who have ears to here what the Spirit is saying will follow and the others will not, let them go their way. He also said “He who is not with me is against me, and he who doesn't gather with Me, scatters.” Matt 12:30. And also, “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.”
  
  I do not pick and chose from what He taught, rather I embrace them no matter the difficulty. He is a Commander and Sovereign and Master, so I do not really question orders. The greatest of those orders is to love God and your neighbor as yourself. To do unto others like you would do to you or you would have them do unto you. Many others, but those are chief.
  
  I do not goose step to what is being taught today. I see it for what it is. Seeker friendly. So I say to that, deny yourself daily, die to yourself, pick up your execution stake (not a cross) and follow Me! That does not sound very friendly to a seeker now does it?
  
  I attend a Synagogue, the difference is that all the people believe in Mashiach Yahshua. You see, I do not believe that He came to toss out His Jewishness or the way services went in the purest form. He was however very righteously angry with the money making merchandising profiteers in the Temple and gave them what they had coming and will do it again I think. He also did not care for the way certain leaders were not servants like He was, but they instead ruled or lorded over people and kept them down and did not open the kingdom up to them. He hated that and told them all so in more ways than one on many occasions. He plays no games. He is a KING and King of the Jews and did not deny it when Pilate asked Him as much.
  
  I know a lot of Jewish folks who have come to faith and belief in Him as well, some of them are Rabbi's who set out to prove He was not who He said ad they know the Torah forwards and backwards, upside down and sideways. The were broken in their attempt to prove Him wrong and paid dearly for confessing Him in front of other Jews, They have a mock funeral for you if you believe in Him and have nothing to do with you ever again!!! So I think they weighed things out pretty damn carefully before they believed. God is NOT afraid to fight about things and get into a heated argument and wrestle with folks. I mean, what are ya gonna do??? Hurt Him ??? Mashiach did not hang out with fishermen because He was a little girl. He was around men like the those seen on “Deadliest Catch”
  
  I know you do not believe in Mashiach Yahshua, perhaps largely in part because of the way the Pollyanna Pastors portray Him to be. But let me make one thing extremely clear and all of the Apostles taught this too. There are many, many, many “ Jesus' ” being presented like as if you were at Wal-Mart and could take your pick. It was going on then and it is worse today. To the one without the gift of discerning of spirits, they are easily taken and hoodwinked like an old woman with no husband to guard the door when the salesman comes knocking to sell his (wares) Jesus.
  
  That is why Mashiach taught to test every spirit to see if it is of the Spirit of Truth or NOT !!!
  
  Much more I could write, but what for ???
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Vacation Plannerposted 15 years ago
A non christian friend of mine asked me a question of why I decided to become a christian and live a christian life. I decided to answer him this way.
If I am wrong about my beliefs and I were to die today, I just won't exist. I would have lived a respectful life in society serving others with the understanding that I gave up some sinful pleasures in life.
However, what happens if I'm right and you die. You will spend the rest of your entire existence in a place of torment with no way of repenting to change your circumstance.
My last comment was " It isn't worth the chance of the short lifespam of less than a hundred year to determine an eternity in a heavenly or hellish place. I'm selecting heaven as there is no second chance.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As far as you know.
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Shaul Steinposted 15 years ago
@ Mike

Greek
αἰών~~~aiōn~~~translated~~~eon, age, ever.
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

The word can mean all 3 things according to Strongs.

Rev 20:14
"Death and She'ol (Hell) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."
And so were the devil, beast and false prophet in the previous verses.

Second means permanent, gone, devoured, consumed. When something is burned up it is by definition annihilated. Our God is a consuming fire, if you are consumed, you are annihilated.

Perhaps if we disagree, either way it ain't going to be something anyone wants any part of if they are sane.

Words are used also concerning things in the OT that say forever and it refers to a long, long time. Eventually though, the thing is over. Men have only so many words to describe time, long time, a very, very long time etc. From our perspective when we say forever that is what we mean, a massively long time.
"If he does this, his master must present him before God.* Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever." (this was not forever, but you get the point)

The only time I find that it it uses a word that means totally eternal and has no 2nd definition is this word in Hebrew עילום and that is the word eylown, not to be confused with Elyown and it speaks of THE NAME bring put on His people.

Even if people are tortured or tormented by men for crimes they did, they eventually die, are eliminated, annihilated.

Definitions of destruction on the Web:
the termination of something by causing so much damage to it that it cannot be repaired or no longer exists
an event (or the result of an event) that completely destroys something
Definitions of annihilation on the Web:
destruction by annihilating something
transitive verb 1 a : to cause to be of no effect : nullify b : to destroy the substance or force of
2 : to regard as of no consequence
3 : to cause to cease to exist; especially : kill
4 a : to destroy a considerable part of b : to vanquish completely : rout
5 : to cause (a particle and its antiparticle) to vanish by annihilatingintransitive verb of a particle and its antiparticle : to vanish or cease to exist by coming together and changing into other forms of energy (as photons)

Either way it ain't pretty at all. To me, if God is a God of love, mercy and grace. Why would He not eventually annihilate someone who is incorrigible?
Why keep them around?

Whenever He punished in the scriptures it was always for a period of time and I bet it felt like forever!!!
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
I don't think it is a good idea for you to try to change the Word of God Shaul.
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  Shaul Steinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What has been changed?
  I believe some will be annihilated and some will not, just to clarify and I have maintained that in the thread.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The fact that you maintain this is immaterial. What you are believing here is the Pollyanna plastic placating teachings that you previously spoke of. Or in other words, cafeteria Christianity, picking and choosing what you want to believe to suit yourself. None of the verses that I posted on the previous page mentions anything about being "annihilated". But they do mention "everlasting burnings" or "unquenchable fire" or "everlasting punishment".
  
  This is why I included Judith in my post on the previous page. To show that God wants all His creatures to serve Him and He doesn't want anyone to resist His voice.
  
  This includes receiving the Sacrament of Baptism (Matthew 28:19), the Sacrament of Reconciliation (John 20:23) and the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (John 6:53-55). Those that don't are choosing to resist His voice.
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
Heaven is actually compared frequently to one big eternal party. You get in pretty much by invitation. You're not forced to go if you don't want to, but don't complain about being left out if you chose not to go.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  And the people doing the referring to heaven as one big party would be the ones that have been and come back?
  
  Or would they be the ones trying to sell their religion?
  
  Having been to a few christian parties, I would not want to be invited anyway. Still - at least you can rest easy knowing that people like me will not be there.
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  goodfriendiamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why would I be happy about you not being there?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Surely you are happy that you have made the right choice - therefore you are going to the party - and I am not. Does that not make you happy?
  
  I mean - if I am there, that means you were wasting your time. You wouldn't have wanted to live your whole life under a misapprehension would you?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You not going to heaven and only time and your decision will be the judge of that, does not make any Christian happy Mark.
  
  And ok, lets say you are right and you are there having not made that decision, only that you existed and that was reward enough to enter. So I lived my life under a misapperhension, so what? I lived my life serving God. I lived my life loving God. I lived my life loving people. So? If you are right and you are there under those circumstances, what has it cost me in living this life in "misapprehension"?
  But what about you Mark and others like you if we (the christians) are right about it all?
  It;s not a matter of you just "not attending the party". It is a much greater consequence than that. So what then has this life of disbelief and defiance of God, Cost you?
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  pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have the sense though that there would definitely be lots of different jello salads there. So for people who like Jello (there's always room for it), it might be OK.
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Leta Sposted 15 years ago
I think Glen Beck will be in heaven, !
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
I'd be happy to be there, Mark. I'd be even happier if everyone were there.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you should be happy then, because all of us will be there ! Whatever 'there' is
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
On the other hand, why should everyone be there? Are you in the habit of crashing parties when you don't know or aren't on speaking terms with the host?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm always on speaking terms with Death
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The death is what you'll get. I prefer to give death its due- a blown raspberry as I go on to eternal life.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  me too!
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your fear is shining through... Fear of death. One of the main reasons Christianity exists in the first place, to be comforted by eternal life.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's not fear of death at all. It's the desire for eternal life with God and a warning to others.
  
  Even God's mother, Mary feared Him but realized His mercy.
  
  Luke 1:46-50 "And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him."
  
  "I prefer to give death its due- a blown raspberry as I go on to eternal life."
  Good one.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  sure thing ! You'll get far....
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You'll be dead, even if you wanted or not. You're getting just the same I'm getting. The only difference, you will not be prepared
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Great! So I can screw up as much as I want and there will be no eternal consequences. There will be no justice, no mercy, and everyone, good or evil, devout or faithless, will get the same ultimate fate. So how is God supposed to be worse than that?
  
  And what on earth do you know about my preparedness for what comes next? If there is no afterlife, there's nothing I can do beyond making sure I leave something worthwhile to my kids. Regarding the afterlife or lack thereof, if there is no afterlife, being unprepared won't be any big deal. It's more important to be prepared if there are eternal consequences for the choices you make in this life.
  
  And people who fear death don't do half the stuff I do. As I believe in the possibility of something better awaiting myself (and anyone else who'd just accept the invitation), I really don't have any reason to be afraid.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very well written
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you read the posts ?Do you understand them ??? I sometimes wonder...
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you hear yourself ??? So a God all loving and forgiving who will not send people to Hell is wrong ??? So you need God in order not to be a bad person??? are you not ashamed of yourself ??!!!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You do not need God in order to be a "bad" person. You do not need God to be a "good" person, atleast according to MANS perception of both.
  
  Again who is to judge what is considered "good" and who is considered "bad"?
  People judge these things on earth according to "works" that is, the actions they take in life.
  But God judges man (the world) not on works alone, but on their faith/belief when judging one at all concerning them to be good or bad.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you ,believers ,are the ones that are judging all the time ! This too much ! I can't stop laughing What a joke
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How are we judging you?
  
  You state your stance very clearly, there is no judgement in that.
  
  You call yourself a non-believer.
  The fact you are a sinner goes hand and hand with that statement.
  There is no judgement call there. It is what it is.
  In your own disbelief you commit the greatest sin of all since:
  
  To recieve forgiveness from God for sin one must believe in God in the first place. (step one) But heres one for you,
  I am a sinner too!
  Though I am also a believer, which gives me then the opportunity to ask for and recieve forgiveness from that sin.
  
  Is a christian "judging" you when he or she speaks of, writes of or points out what they personally believe for themselves to be true? No.
  
  The fact that you obviously feel rather, "threatened" by it, is not the Christian judging you, rather is YOU judging yourself according to what the Christian and or God has stated in the Bible.
  
  If you feel then that you have been wrongly, or unjustly judged, you have only yourself to blame then.
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  goodfriendiamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  True.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where did I say you were judging me ?? nowhere.. You Don't read the posts properly !!! I'm talking of you judging EVERYTHING ! Not me personaly !! and I don't care what you think of me !
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please if you would, give me examples of how we, Christians "judge everything!" as you put it.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm SO not interested in crashing that party...
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, why would anyone be interested in going to heaven? I mean, think about it...
  
  No sin
  No tears
  No sadness
  No death
  No illness
  No hate
  No violence
  No crime
  
  A place of perfect peace
  A place of perfect happiness
  A place of love
  A place of joy
  A place of life everlasting
  A place of beauty beyond anyones wildest imaginations or thought
  
  Yes, I think I would rather not go there and spend eternity...lol
  please note my sarcasm in that last line
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PGrundy said it best:
  
  "I'll take damnation, thanks. All my friends will be in hell, and frankly, I don't want any part of a God who sets up such a perverse test and then punishes people forever if they fail it. I wouldn't be friends with a PERSON like that, never mind a Supreme Being. Have you considered that if you are right you will have to hang around with this hardass insecure deity for all eternity? Can't God just go buy a big pickup truck or new sportscar to compensate for His Insecurities? Is the only option he has for his perversity to take it out on mankind?
  
  That's sad.
  
  Hanging around with such a God sounds like hell to me. You are welcome to it if that is what you want."
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then I will respond in the same way I did to her:
  
  It's a perverse test to accept Jesus or not, to accept that "pardon" for all the sin of mankind?
  How does God in creating us with free will insecure for doing that?
  insecure - lacking self-confidence or assurance
  insecure - not firm or firmly fixed; likely to fail or give way
  insecure - lacking in security or safety
  God is assurance He has no need for mans terms as far as "self confidence" is concerned
  God is firmly fixed, He NEVER fails!
  God is security and safety
  
  To be insecure is to be seperate from God:
  You cannot be "self confident" if you do not know yourself, and you cannot claim to know yourself if you deny the "God" in you, that is: the parts of you which He is a part of.
  You are not firnly fixed, you being human are likely fail from time to time
  There is no safety in depending on yourself or any other man for that matter, when concerning your future
  
  There are some who like to attach "human adjectives" in relation to God and do that in itself is blasphemy.
  God is in no way bound by the restraints of this world, man is
  God is not sinful, man is
  God did not fall, man did, and has, and continues to
  
  God wants to give you life
  God wants for you to be made new
  God wants for you to love Him as He loves you
  God wants for you to be saved in essence from yourself, to have the slate wiped clean through the acceptance of His son, through belief in Him and forgiveness is granted ALWAYS!
  What man or judge will ever do the same?
  You said it yourself, you would not like someone, or be friends with a PERSON who was perverse like that, and yet
  GOD does
  He loves you regardless of your sin
  He loves you and is willing to forgive you regardless of your denial of Him.
  God sacrificed Himself for you and all of mankind so that even the most hardened criminals against Him could be set free
  
  Think of this way,
  You are standing in front of a judge after being found guilty of a lifetime of multiple crimes, crimes which you have stored up in that lifetime. A MULTITUDE of them and the judge says to you,
  Just accept and believe in me, ask for forgiveness and I will wipe your record clean and set you free.
  Thats God.
  
  This perversion you speak of is exactly what God hates! He hates the perversion of mankind. He hates the multiple crimes man has commited in direct defiance of Him.
  To God, no matter how "good" you think you are, you are not. It is His standard of excellence, His standard of perfection that you will be judge on, not mans!
  
  Who is it that says one is good or not good, evil or not evil?
  Man (The world)?
  But Man(the world) has varying degrees of this. The world judges according to what the world views as good or evil and that judgement is always failing.
  The reason?
  The world is not perfect. The world is flawed. The world is neither moral nor ethical (good). So what then gives the world the authority to judge mankind if being neither moral or ethical(good) on things which are moral and ethical(good)?
  
  God being perfectly good can be the only judge as to what is good and for that too, what is right or lawful.
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  pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Says you. The God you put forth is a monster. Like I said, no thanks.
  
  I'm glad it's working out for you.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Dogmatism, word play.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But there too you just did it, made a decision-a choice to accept and go to damnation, hell rahter than the alternative of God and his kingdom.
  Really does not make any sense to me at all.
  
  You would rather burn eternally in hell because you "think" God is evil for creating it in the first place.
  
  That is much like a criminal saying,
  "I think the creator of the electric chair is so bad having created it,
  I am going to murder someone"
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I think the God YOU have created in your mind is evil. I don't believe one exists at all.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But then you just contradicted yourself,
  you said she said it best and then quoted her with the beginning "I'll take damnation thank you..."
  
  So there you made a decision. You will take damnation over belief in God.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  
  I will take your imaginary damnation as well thanks. Semantics, semantics, semantics. The main stay of your irrational belief system.
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  pgrundyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See, I already am in much better company.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm, ever hard of sarcasm?
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You pose a logical problem here. Christians believe it is a mortal sin to worship any created being. This leads to one of two possibilities- either they commit idolatry by their very devotion to God, or God isn't made up.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I realize it's logical. Guess I'm voting for possibility #1.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Furthermore, it is a requirement that, to love God, one must reject evil. So a Christian cannot worship a created God or an evil being.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Semantics. An atheist cannot worship a created God either.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@ atomswifey
toooo long....for nothing !!
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pgrundyposted 15 years ago
It's a tape. You just flick the "God" switch and it's "Blah blah blah, blah blah blah..."

Who needs a brain when you've been saved?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are right, better to wander around aimlessly existing with no thought of the one who created that brain.
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pgrundyposted 15 years ago
Plus, Mark can cook.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, there is the inverse of the belief that nothing bad gets into Heaven, that nothing good goes to Hell. Mark will have to leave his culinary ability behind if he goes there.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
whatever.. if it makes you happy I did. then I did. can't take the trouble checking. Can't care less anyway.That doesn't mean you're not judging all the time. from the start. when you believers say : No sinner can enter paradise, or whatever is the way you put it. I'm done !! It's toooo boring !
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  but how is saying that you sinners cannot enter paradise and you forgot the most important part of that, if you do not ask for forgiveness, fit into the catagory above?
  that is not our "opinion" it is what it is. Whether or not we or anyone else believes it is immaterial, makes no difference.
  we do not sit in judgement of that anyway, God does. He is the judge as was my point from the beginning.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh God !! I'm so scared!
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@ worldscribe
I'm sure they can understand that. With God's help !!
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Let's hope so!
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@worldscribe :
it looks like they didn't
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Unbelievable, huh?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  unbelievable !!! just like God !!
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
You wild gambler, you, Tantrum. Soul wagerer! You're right, it's completely useless...
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I see if I can fight in some other thread! I'm in a fighting mood today !!
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Been that same way since yesterday. Some days, nah, don't want to bother. Other days.... Where ya goin? I'm thinkin' "Mind of Christ..."
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is your soul useless? Does it have no worth to you? maybe it will when you are standing there in front of the one who gave it to you. Maybe then you will realize this big gamble or wager you have placed.
  How sad that is then that you might, being unwilling to believe, will stand in front of Him, no words left to which to argue with, no witnesses to call, no evidence to prove your innocence, how sad that is.
  
  Sad because it(the punishment)could have all been avoided simply with, faith.
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Shaul Steinposted 15 years ago
I made a topic on this and got 4 posts. I think the reason why is because some people would rather argue about other things instead of answer this. Because this asks you to make a choice instead of blaming someone. This asks you to chose and live with your choice. But alas, some people just want to complain. so go to the topic and engage there. http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/20502

If we had the choice right now, this very day!
To chose between what is set before us.

And we have to make this choice again tomorrow and everyday after.

1) * * *Life and living?
2) ^^^Knowledge of evil and good?
3) Would you want to know more or have life and live?
4) Would you be happy to live or curious to know what you did not know?

* * *Knowing that you can live forever without the extra knowledge and that you could multiply and fill the earth and rule over it all like a king and queen.

^^^Knowing that you will know more, but not live as long.

Pick one.
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  Shaul Steinposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody wants to chose?
  It's a fair question really.
  You make it everyday anyhow.
  
  If you could start over again, what do you pick?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Gonna have to choose door #5, Bob. Did I win?
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Nothing sad about it because it AIN'T gonna happen. Let me spell it out for you:

I do not want to believe in YOUR God.
The Bible is filled with punitive, judgmental garbage.
You can't prove your God exists.
You believe what you do, I believe what I do.
At least, I'm not telling people they're going to Hell.
I have no soul to wager (nor do you).
I'm perfectly happy "taking my chances", as you put it.
I believe in evolution.
I do not believe in creationism.
I live a life I'm proud of.
I am true to who I am. I've not been brainwashed, as you.
Not being able to think for yourself is sad.
You aren't able to think outside of your box.
You're too afraid of the finility of death to not believe in the afterlife.
Who are you to tell ME I'm gambling and wagering?
I find it condescending and rude (a perfect example of how you JUDGE).

Here's how you will retaliate on my final 2 points: It's not I who judges, but God. He is the final judge. Says who? Your Bible? C'mon...
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Retaliate? I have no reason or cause to retaliate against you.
  But I will respond to some of your accusations against me there:
  
  1. I think very well for myself. As do you. Just because my system of beliefs differs from your own does not in any way negate being able to think for myself. God gave us all free will: the ability to think for ourselves and make choices/decisions for ourselves. In believing in God I have made a decision to do that, exercised my free will, my choice in that matter.
  
  2. I am able to think outside my "box" as you put it. I think about the world I live, the people I love etc. God does not in any wqay put a box around me, nor does, the belief in God put me in a "box". The possibilities are endless when concerning our lives. Even the possibility that God exists.
  
  3. I am not "afraid" in the finality of death were it to be true. Why should I have any fear of it all just being, over when I die? Why would anyone be in fear of that? Makes no sense.
  If it is all just, "over" as you state, the end, *pift*, gone, with no afterlife to go on to then fine I would say. So what? Makes no difference then, what I believe or do.
  Fear:
  A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
  So I ask you, where would fear come into the minds of anyone if what you say is true of death?
  
  4. I did not tell you, "you are going to hell". I stated that you might be. I stated, that it is not I who am to judge to that, and that if that is the case, that would be sad.
  
  5. No, I cannot prove that God exists, that is physically. Most people who doubt the existence of God, point that out to us that do. Which is fine, You are right I have no "physical proof" that God exists. And do you know WHY I do not? Because God does not exist in the physical world you or I do.
  
  example: An artist paints a painting, does he exist within the painting to have painted it? no.
  
  6. You state very absolutely there "I have no soul, nor do you!"
  So you are an authority on the subject then? You know for sure you do not? How do you come to know that for sure?
  
  7. You can be "perfectly happy" with your chances or the taking of them. God gave you that right and gift, it's called free will.
  
  8. You are true to who? You? How do you know that?? How do you know you are being "true" to yourself? If you deny the parts of you which are in fact, God's?
  Are you really being true to yourself if you deny yourself a relationship with the one who created all life? I don't know, you will have to judge yourself I guess on that one.
  
  But if it's true, that to be true to yourself you have to be COMPLETELY truthful to yourself, then one could argue that, are you really, if you do not know what is true.
  Like in the belief there is no God. You really cannot assert that as the truth since the plain simple truth is, you just, don't know.
  
  And then that brings us to, if you go your whole entire life believing God does not exist and if He really does, then you have lied to yourself the whole time, which again, is not being true to yourself.
  
  And finally,
  9. I am glad you "live a life you are PROUD of" Pride does comes before a fall.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There you go again, "Pride does come before a fall". Yes, you've told many people on HP they're going to Hell. No matter how you try to sugar coat it... you say it again and again.
  
  These are my OPINIONS, Atomswifey. That's why I listed them one by one to show you how pointless it is to argue with me. I never said I was an authority on anything. IMO, neither you nor I have a soul. IMO, you are brainwashed and cannot think outside the box. That's not your fault.
  
  I've heard you give that painter's analogy before and I didn't buy it then and I'm not buying it now. Of course it's true, but it's a lame argument for the existence of God. Semantics doesn't cut it. I can conjure up 800 other "alligator" analogies, but that doesn't make it so!
  
  Reread what I wrote. These are my opinions, just as you have yours (which I don't buy), I have mine (which you don't buy).
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@wordscribe

you're working hard !!
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Thank you, tantrum. I'm thinking she's working a lot harder than I am.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She needs 'cool aid '!!
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
God is a God of love, mercy and grace.

It is that grace which saves us from the facing the punishment of any judgement from God.

In all of us is the "knowing" He is there. In ALL of us whether one chooses to recognize it or not.

We are given and have been given a choice.

Those who choose to deny God, do so mainly out pride. They cannot accept the fact they NEED Him. They feel as though they themselves can set their own standards. Giving no account to any God for this.

I have read countless posts citing that a God who would send someone to hell for simply not believing is evil etc. And so they justify their disbelief with this. Saying they would rather not believe in a God who would do such a thing to His people and so on.

But they do not understand that it is God who set the standard. God does not punish or otherwise damn people for their sin alone. Sin has been and can be forgiven. It is their lack of faith which demonstrates to God that they
have no need for Him
have no love for Him
would choose to sin and stay in that sin rather than to believe they can be forgiven of it.
It is their lack of faith which damns them, and it is Gods grace, mercy and love which can save them.

I am a sinner.
I admit that.
If I did not believe in God, If I did not believe in His son, if I did not admit that I am not perfect and that I do in fact sin or in other words, admit that I am a sinner in need of God, I would then die in that sin and be lost forever.

In admittance of that, I have become submissive to the God who created me. I have willingly, put my trust in Him and Him alone. His grace is sufficient for me.

Everyone on this planet has the choice to do the same and recieve that forgiveness, that love, that grace.
And isn't that so much better than an eternity spent in hell? I think so, but the choice as always is yours.
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
Fairbear, allow me to re-repeat. Christians do not believe God sends people to Hell. Christians believe if anyone goes to Hell, it's entirely on their own. This "truth" we're "hiding" that we believe it's good that God sends people to Hell does not exist.

Rather, Christians believe God does everything short of disrespecting our free agency to keep us from going to Hell. In short, not only does God not send people to Hell, God goes to tremendous effort to keep us from going there without resorting to spiritual kidnapping.
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're evading my questions. Why would you do that? Oh, I know. It's because you know I have a case and you don't. So, you say that Christians do not believe God sends people to Hell and that He does everything in His power to save them. But Christians also believe that God is the creator of all things, who created Hell, and who also created the rules, and the specific consequences for breaking the rules. Those two "beliefs" put together make a complete and direct contradiction. You can't have it both ways. It's impossible. Now, why don't you show me how you can possibly believe both sides of the contradiction. I don't think you can, and judging from your refusal to directly address my challenge, I don't think you will. You won't because you have nothing substantial to use for your argument. All you can do, seemingly, is say "you're wrong and I'm right and I don't have to explain myself." Why the heck did you engage in a debate with me if you're not going to play by the same rules? When you tell someone they are wrong, the least you can do is tell them how they are wrong.
  
  By the way, there have been plenty of Christians just in this thread who have agreed with me that God does send people to Hell. You're actually outnumbered.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Let me simplify the christian perspective here so that we all are clear:
  
  God created hell: true
  God created the consequence for disbelief/lack of faith to be hell: true
  But the question as to whether or not anyone goes there is dominated according to ones own free will. It is a choice.
  
  You do not "have" to be sent there
  You do not have to disbelieve
  You do not have to face that consequence.
  Simply because God created hell and its there does mean that You or I or anyone has to be sent there.
  
  You want to insist God sends people there in an effort to make God look "evil" for doing that act.
  But thats because like I said earlier you are still seeing people as good and not guilty enough to recieve that sort of punishment.
  
  You do not understand that it is not according to mans standards that God sees fit to punish and or to damn. God set the standard. He gave man the rule book, told him of the consequence if he chose to not believe. It is then, mans choice to choose life or death, heaven or hell.
  
  To that extent, if we then choose to disbelieve we are then choosing to go to hell. It is a willing choice either way. God says it:
  for the wages of sin are death/hell
  in other words, a sinful man dying in that sin, not believing, "earns" death/hell.
  But the GIFT of God is salvation through Jesus Christ.
  To sum that all up:
  
  We earn hell. we should all be going there. We have worked hard to get there. Being full of, born into and living a life of sin. But
  God gave us all a gift, and a gift is given freely. You do not have to pay for or work for etc.
  Salvation through Christ.
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Analogy time. Somebody builds a public pool and posts a number of rules to ensure the safety of everyone there, ie, no running on the patio, no diving in water less than 9 feet deep, no horse play, obey the lifeguards, et cetera,. Breaking these rules will result in expulsion from the pool if it doesn't result in injury or death. So if someone breaks the rules and refuses to follow the lifeguard's directions, is it the fault of the person who built the pool if they are no longer allowed or even able to swim there again?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Closer analogy. The person who built the pool also created the laws of physics and ensured that humans cannot breathe under water. This person also knows that little Jimmy - who cannot read because his parents kept him away from school because they were afraid he would learn about evolution - is going to almost drown in the pool when he bangs his head diving in to the shallow end.
  
  Poor little Jimmy lives out the rest of his life paralyzed and in pain in a wheelchair. All because the builder of the pool made the pool too shallow to dive in. And knowing full well that Jimmy was destined to spend his life in a wheelchair.
  
  Life is what you make of it - and spreading a fear of hell is what you are making of yours.
  
  Why?
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but if said person becomes expelled for breaking the rules, who does the expelling? Is it the person who broke the rules? Or is it the people who established the rules and consequences? I've said nothing about whose "fault" it is if a person goes to Hell. That is beside the point. The point is, who does the actual sending? Who enforces the consequences? God does.
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Shaul Steinposted 15 years ago
Interesting that the beast, false prophet, anti-christ, devil, death, hell, the grave...are all cast into the lake of fire and this is the second death.
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
Again, it is His grace which saves us. we are saved by and through that grace.
He loves us.
period.

It is we who choose our own destiny when it comes to heaven or hell.

I think an eternity, even one moment, spent anywhere apart from God would be hell.
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Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago
I will be forever grateful you guys can only decide for yourselves.
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Shaul Steinposted 15 years ago
Well if I send you someplace and you think me to be evil for it, that is your opinion and perception, maybe even an illusion.

I on the other hand could have more wisdom and understanding than you.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey sock puppet, there is several varieties of shrub that are wiser than you!
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Yes I see your kind hearted god has written some more about love. .

Those killed by the sword are far better off than those who die of hunger, wasting away for want of food. Tenderhearted women have cooked their own children and eaten them in order to survive the siege. But now the anger of the LORD is satisfied. His fiercest anger has now been poured out. He started a fire in Jerusalem that burned the city to its foundations. (Lamentations 4:9-11 NLT)

More Psychotic crud from "the good book"
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
Is it evil for God to send people to hell? Or is the evil in the hearts of man, for man to love sin, to rebel so much against God that he would rather be sent to hell for it as opposed to being set free from it?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is supposing that one believed in any of that. No proof, just more assumptive statements about your belief.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Ah sweet lord!

Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria, Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy, Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!" The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness, "Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her, And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. (Amos 4:1-3 NAS)
the soothing words of a maniac!
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Hi Earnest! Fancy meeting you here... Great to see you! Hugs.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hugs back!
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
Okay, just for the sake of argument, let's say I believe in God and believe in Hell. All that follows is based off of these assumptions I clearly do not accept.
So, here are my assumptions:
1) God is all good, omniscient, and all powerful.
2) Some sinners who haven't accepted God will go to Hell for eternity.
3) If God is omnipotent, he has the power to change #2 above.
4) Since God is all knowing, he can also avoid #2.
5) And since he's all good, he WANTS to avoid #2, right?
So, if #1 is true, then #2 cannot be true...

Additionally, I will add that if this God is so all powerful, makes all the rules, omniscient, and loving, then don't you think he might give all of us sinners who haven't accepted him in life another chance in the afterlife? He has "rules" for who gets in, right? Well, what if one barely misses the cut-off? I've heard the argument in here a million times that just as judges give sentences to criminals, so does God. But, even murderers are let off the hook in our legal system. Wouldn't he want to give opportunities for salvation if he's so loving and supposedly wants all his children to live with him in the afterlife?

Finally why would he punish his children indefinitely for finite failures and sins? After all, he designed us, failures and all...
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, Jesus did die so we'd have the opportunity. What more do you want?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, something besides an argument about a fictional Jesus (even Paul spoke only of a spiritual unhuman Christ). Too many inconsistencies about Jesus... Sorry. And are you talking about Peter's or Paul's? I believe in him dying for our sins as much as I believe in unicorns.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And this is the argument you will give when standing before God pleading with Him for yet another chance.
  "well God, I heard about you, about your son, but I didn't believe in you because....??????? and as far as your son is concerned, I believed more in unicorns.
  
  If you choose to not believe in Jesus and His atonement for your sins, how then can you be saved from the consequence of sin? You cannot. Because Jesus is that atonement.
  
  You asked, why can't god give us sinners another chance in the afterlife? Because God cannot allow for sin to enter His kingdom for one thing. You, if you died in your sin, would be guilty of sin. It is your lack of faith which will damn your soul, and it is your belief in His son, what he did for you which will save it.
  
  It is not by works, or good deeds that one goes to heaven or goes on to be with God, it is by faith in Him, in His son.
  That is exactly, what Jesus, his disciples taught on even to the pharisees who thought themselves to be so very right with God. As Paul pointed out to them, their "righteousness" was as filthy rags. As it was told, by God and through His servants, there is but one way to the father, and that is through faith and belief in His son.
  
  Peter as well as Pauls Christ or messiah are one and the same. Both were followers and believers in Jesus Christ as their messiah. They taught, preached and even died as a result of their beliefs in Him.
  
  we today ALL of us are hearing and have heard of Christ and gift of salvation through Him as a result of their doing as He instructed them to do.
  
  You also asked why it is that if our own judges offer murderers even a second chance why then won't God?
  How many chances do you get or want?
  Do you not think that even now He is giving you the opportunity to believe?
  How many times have you talked with believers?
  How many times have you been told?
  And yet you still choose to defy and otherwise disbelieve God.
  
  So you expect or atleast want for Him to break His rules/laws to satisfy your need to hold onto your sin and still reap the same rewards as those who are faithful to Him? does not make sense.
  
  God calls all to come to Him. To be submissive and admit their sin. To be repentant. To ask for forgiveness. To at the very least admit where they have gone wrong. To be humble before Him.
  To accept His grace, His mercy, not later, but here and now. Why we are still in the flesh, still having our free will to make that choice.
  
  Let me ask you this:
  How much faith would it take for you to believe in God, lets say, once you are in front of Him?
  None right?
  You do not need to have or exercise your faith in that case.
  
  It is by faith we are saved and enter the kingdom of Heaven.
  
  So, standing in front of Him, He cannot give anyone a second chance in the afterlife. since once there, there is no matter or need for faith. Our faith is fulfilled upon the time of our death.
  
  The faith and belief time period is now, while we are living in the flesh, being born into sin and living in sin.
  
  Too you asked, why it is that if he wants us all to be with Him why not offer us salvation? He did and does.
  Right now.
  If you are sking about salvation in the afterlife, that cannot be, since Heaven is perfect as God is perfect. There is no need for salvation there, since there is no sin there.
  
  And finally,
  Sin is not finite. when you die, in your sin, it goes with you. You are drenched in it. All the sin you have carried around your whole life. It follows you, it is you. You are born into it, so it makes sense then that if you are born with it, you will die with it.
  That is why you need forgiveness/salvation now before you die with it on you, in you.
  
  And before you or anyone else says "but wait then, are you saying babies and or children who die are going to hell etc.."
  God does not make children/babies accountable for their being born into sin. It is only when we reach the age of accountability that we are then, accountable.
  
  In the nutshell here is how it is:
  
  You die in your sin
  You are a sinner who has not chosen to accept christ
  You stand before God
  God looks at you
  You look at God
  You are awe struck
  God is not
  You are speachless
  God is not
  He shows you and tells you where you went wrong
  He continues to show you all the ways in which you defied Him, all the laws you broke of His
  He does this to show you why it is you will be punished
  He shows your entire life full of sin and disbelief.
  He even shows you sitting there at your computer while some, "nut case Jesus freak, Bible thumper" and you conversated.
  You say, "But God, I didn't know"
  And He says, "Yes you did."
  And you say, "But God I have done alot of good things on earth"
  And He says, "really? to who? For who? certainly not me."
  "But God, I thought Jesus was a just a man and I didn't know the truth about Him."
  And God says " I know, you said you believed more in unicorns than you did my son, but you did know, you were let in on the fact of who He is. It was not hidden from you."
  
  You see, even though now here on earth on this forum you hear all the blatently arrogant remarks from some who call God, evil, say that he is or must be a "psychopath" etc. Even all of them who do that one day when standing there in front of Him will have the same responses.
  All will bow
  All will have respect then.
  All will know the truth then. And it will be most terrifying moment as they have nor has anyone ever even experienced on earth.
  That moment when their facing this God who they bolasphemed and called names. That moment when it is perfectly clear to them how perfectly wrong they were.
  
  We as believers do not find joy or satisfaction with any of that. Rather it is extremely sad.
  
  I want you to know that and I feel it important to tell you that, I hold no disrespect for you as a person. I don't even know you to make a choice in that. But I do care about you. Even in not knowing who you are really, I care.
  
  I know you are a non-believer and thats ok. I know God will reveal Himself to you someday. I believe that. I also want you to know that even now He is.
  It is your decision and yours alone to make.
  
  I am not going to continue to debate with you on any of this. You either will make the right choice or not. It is not for me to judge you either way.
  
  God does love you
  He is waiting for you to make that decision.
  The choice is yours.
  Whether you make that decision tonight or any other is between you and God.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Can anyone say "Hub"? Anyhoo, I'll post what I did in another topic:
  
  How then do you reconcile all the contradictory information about this supposed "historical" figure named Jesus Christ? He's described as looking many different ways, from height to hair color. He's even said to be bald. When exactly was he born? Again, many dates abound... Where was he born? Bethlehem or Nazareth? Archeologists have discovered there was no Nazareth in the first century. No secular record of the man even survives. Now, doncha think for such an important historical figure we'd know just a tad more about him?
  
  I won't even reply to the rest of your malarky. You have no reasonable answers to any of my questions. You simply quote from a fictional book. BTW, a book filled with more inconsistencies than I can even list.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
And what a failure we are. The scientific creator would have a lot to answer for, and more almost daily!
Made out of dirty DNA which eventually kills us as it does all other sentient life, we struggle on with physical and mental pain and depression, spend our last years ill and infirm and die uselessly. Our sad little lives contribute to essential brain chemistry being depleted.
In the mean time we are trying to live Coca Cola ad lives.

The whole lying, hyped bullshit world we live in where thieves and hypocrites prosper and the honest are seen as fools is a world created by the pious. No tiny little neurotic deity for me thanks!

Evidenced by this thread! .
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 "For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord."

So those that are in Christ (whose names are in the book of life) will be taken up to meet Christ on judgment day.

And those that aren't, of their own free will won't.

And we know what the alternative to being taken up to meet Christ is.

So those that don't care whether their names are written in the book of life send themselves to hell.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have a little sub note. What a pile of rubbish. You've been reading your only book again!
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
Earnest, whether or not Christianity is true is a different subject. This is about whether or not Christians believe God's responsible for people choosing to go to Hell.

As for dirty DNA, human mortality, et cetera, Christianity says that God didn't make us that way. We did.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We made our DNA dirty? Time to break out another science book! I have a thousand or so pages on it.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you're not serious. Do you not know the first thing about science? Biology 101, high school biology? Come on!
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you knew biology 101, you would know that it only describes our mortal conditions and the effect genes, pathogens, and various environmental factors have upon our physical (and to a lesser extent emotional/psychological) existence. Biology has nothing to say on why our mortal existence isn't perfect or who's to blame for that imperfection because questions like "why" are the chief concerns of philosophy and religion and lie well beyond the purview of science, which asks "how" rather than "why."
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mobilephone guideposted 15 years ago
Christian god is a paradox. If god was all knowing, he knows where you're going. If you went to hell, he didn't do anything to stop you from getting there. Well, not exactly because god gave you free will... but god knew you were going to hell anyway, so what's the point of the free will? Well, it makes sense if god made a joke on you.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And that is exactly what god is. A joke! But good enough to fool the ancients!
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Those religious fanatics with the one and only correctly striped air fairy do not know much about the sciences, evolution, or anything much. The stuff I learn from is often "Of their list" due to some obscure scripture that is contradicted in the same book 2 to 10 times.
Anyway this removes a section of the brain called "common sense" and we are back with "It was written by the devil", an entity made by god along with his other screw ups.
God should find out who made him and get a refund!
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  mobilephone guideposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well, not everybody has the leisure or the gift of free time or even the intelligence to think about stuff, like "is this socially/morally good or bad - or moral or rational", "what the fuck are they preaching me". common sense might be but it still differs in different situations.
  It's mostly, "i don't have anything to eat tonight" and some more basic common sense stuff.
  
  if everybody has this "common sense" and think rationally then is it a happy ending? no more religion, only rational thinkers, smart people. i've heard that the human brain really have the tendency to find and create/think that there really is a "higher being". buried deep inside the DNA. now how should we create this utopia of only rational thinkers should taste.
  
  holocaust of the "idiots" or religious driven, anyone?
  
  whether there's a god or not, people sends people to hell. only people could think of such things.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Tell me .... who made god again?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is/was not made,
  He just is.
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wordscribe41posted 15 years ago
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is/was not made. He just is.
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
God Himself answered that question earnestshub:
"I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end".
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah me too, and I'm real! More from that one source again, sourcing itself as proof! How logical is that?
  
  god is already what? Who made your god?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible also said some dude's donkey talked.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Were you there to know it didn't?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again, a great advertisement for atheism.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody nor anything "made" God
  He just is
  always was
  
  Like he said, "the beginning and the end" The first and the last. There was none before Him since there wasn't a "before". He just always was and is and will be.
  
  mans version of what a god is to be, is confined to the limits of our perception.
  Which is very limited.
  some would put God or his likeness into a catagory of having been created or made.
  A figure.
  But The God is greater than all of that. He is greater than what you or I perceive to know or can even begin to understand.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Where is 'My Friend Shiyloh' when you need him/her?
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
Let me ask you all something

Have you ever looked at a map?
Do you see Israel on it?
Do you see how very very small it is compared to all the countries and nations surrrounding it?

Now then, how would you then explain why it is when Israel has been threatened so severely with domination from those countries, that it has not been in fact dominated?

I think it rather a modern day miracle.

But I know why that is.
Because Israel is protected by God Himself.

Just take a look at the 6 day war and see if you don't see where God is in control there.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever looked at a map?
  Do you see Great Britain on it?
  Do you see how very very small it is compared to all the countries and nations surrounding it?
  
  Now then, how would you then explain why it is when Great Britain has been threatened so severely with domination from those countries, that it has not been in fact dominated?
  
  In fact, it has spread far and wide, dominating everywhere it spread - Including the good ole USA where they even speak a similar language now.
  
  I think it rather a modern day miracle.
  
  But I know why that is.
  Because Great Britain couldn't care less about your imaginary super being.
  
  You really are an fantastic advertisement for atheism.
  
  Thank you.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Israel has enough arms and air force to annihilate any and all countries around it. That is why it is still there. American know-how and money as well. There is not one country that would take Israel on!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But they did during the 6 day war and lost BIG
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said, armed to the teeth! They took out 9 countries in all.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yisrael, a cab driver who was drafted to fight in the 6-Day War as part of the paratroop unit assigned with conquering the Straits of Tiran, told the following upon his return:
  
  “The Israeli soldiers didn’t have to parachute out of the Nord airplanes which took them to the Tiran Straits. They landed like spoiled tourists in the airport, because the Egyptian regiment which was on guard there fled before the Israeli trips were visible on the horizon. After landing, I was sent with another reserves soldier, an electrician, to patrol the area. When we had distanced ourselves two kilometers, an Egyptian half track appeared before us filled with soldiers and mounted with machine guns on every side. We had only light weapons with a few bullets that couldn’t stop the half track for a second. We couldn’t turn back, so we stood there in despair, waited for the first shot, and for lack of a better idea, aimed our guns at them.
  
  But the shots didn’t come.
  
  The half track came to a halt, and we decided to cautiously approach it. We found 18 armed soldiers inside sitting with guns in hand, with a petrified look on their faces. They looked at us with great fear as though begging for mercy. I shouted ‘Hands up!’ As we were marching them and I had returned to a state of calm, I asked the Egyptian sergeant next to me, ‘Tell me, why didn’t you shoot at us?’ He answered, ‘I don’t know. My arms froze – they became paralyzed. My whole body was paralyzed, and I don’t know why.’
  It turned out that these soldiers didn’t know that the Straits of Tiran were already in Israeli hands; why didn’t they elminiate us? I don’t have an answer. How can one say that God didn’t help us.”
  
  Following his blow-by-blow analysis, the military correspondent for the secular Haaretz Newspaper summed up the 6-Day War with the admission: “Even a non-religious person must admit this war was fought with help from heaven.”
  
  A German journalist summarized: “Nothing like this has happened in history. A force including a 1000 tanks, hundreds of artillery cannons, many rockets and fighter jets, and a hundred thousand soldiers armed from head to toe was destroyed in two days in an area covering hundreds of kilometers filled with reinforced outposts and installations. And this victory was carried out by a force that lost many soldiers and much equipment, positions, and vehicles. No military logic or natural cause can explain this monumental occurrence.”
  
  More than this: the Israeli military was outnumbered on all fronts and in all services. Israel could field a total strength of 264,000 soldiers; this included all the reserves, and could not therefore be sustained for any length of time without destroying the economy. Facing them were 525,000 Arab soldiers (of whom almost half - 240,000 - were Egyptian). Israeli tanks were outnumbered by more than three to one: 800 Israeli tanks faced 2,424 Arab tanks (again, about half - 1,200 - were Egyptian). The Israeli air force could field 350 aircraft, outnumbered almost 3 to 1 by 939 Arab aircraft (450 of them Egyptian).
  
  Now what were you saying about their teeth?
  
  PROOF!
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Hey that's the same guy they're talkin about in the bible! I knew that movie was true!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  PROOF !
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
Facts about the six day war continued:

While the Arab countries continued to receive vast quantities of weapons from their traditional suppliers - the Soviet Union, Great Britain---- (HEY MARK LOOKIE HERE) and, to a lesser extent, the United States - Israel's main weapon supplier, France, without warning slapped an arms embargo on Israel; so did the USA. Little wonder that while the entire Arab world, led by the Egyptian dictator
The Israeli military was outnumbered on all fronts and in all services.
Gamal Abdel-Nasser, was proclaiming its forthcoming triumph against Israel, and proudly trumpeting the imminent annihilation of Israel and the massacre of all her citizens (the Jewish ones, that is), Israel was preparing to fight for her very existence, and projecting - in a best-case scenario - some 10,000 dead, maybe up to 50,000, if she survived at all. Plans were made to turn national parks into mass cemeteries, even as schoolchildren were given canvas sacks and started shoveling sand into them to defend their homes.

But oh my my my was the surprise on all of them huh?
lol
And in just 6 days too,
hmmm, Guess God rested on the 7th!
He's known for doing that from time to time
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atomswifeyposted 15 years ago
The very fact that Israel survived was a miracle; that they not merely survived, but won a decisive victory, infinitely more miraculous. A West Point general once remarked that though the US Military Academy studies wars fought throughout the world, they do not study the Six Day War - because what concerns West Point is strategy and tactics, not miracles.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OOPS! You forgot to put quotes around your copy and paste tactic. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic … .aspx/7133
  
  Man, cannot think for yourself at all...
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And you would have rathered I quoted myself regarding all of the facts of that? Or are you just mad about about my lapse in quotation marks?
  Does that then negate the facts of it?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your facts are merely how you choose to interpret it, if you are looking for miracles, then you'll find them.
  
  And, yes, I do take offense to your lapse in quotation marks. Trying to pass off someone else's thoughts as your own is dishonest. But, old habits die hard. And, who am I to judge?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I did not pass them off as my own!
  You here are trying to distract from the facts, you are trying to draw attention away from the words themselves by accusing me of being dishonest etc.
  
  The truth even when put right in front of you, you ignore so what is the point?
  You are blind
  You are lost
  I feel sorry for you
  I feel sadness for you
  I pray someday soon, you open your heart to God and recieve Him.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As you ignored my question I will ask it again.
  
  What are you trying to achieve here?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  achieve???
  Ohhh I get it, you think because I am stating my beliefs as you do yours that I have an agenda right?
  Nope sorry no agenda
  I just happen to be one of those Christians who is not ashamed of my beliefs nor taking a stand or otherwise a position concerning them.
  
  You do not have to read my posts nor reply to them. I cannot look beyond my space here at home into yours Mark to see if you are there reading or not.
  
  I stated what I believe
  I stated what I feel about you and/or anyone else for that matter who does read
  
  that I care for you
  that I pray for you
  etc. etc. etc.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have not answered my question. Clearly you have an agenda - you are making an argument for your beliefs and defending them against a perceived attack. Perhaps the question was not understandable, so I will try again:
  
  What are you hoping to achieve by doing what you are doing?
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's code for: I have been out-argued, I cannot think of a way to substantiate my "argument", so I'll just dig in my back pocket for the only thing I have left. I'll pull out my morally superior card and say: "I pray someday soon, you open your heart to God and receive him."
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  Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good one!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I already told you wordscribe41: I was not going to debate this with you any longer in an earlier post.
  
  You have all the information you need to come a decision is what I am saying.
  And I will pray you do so.
  It wasn't and isn't that I was "argued out" as you put it.
  
  There is no argument here.
  
  It is what it is
  God is
  You either accept and believe that or you don't.
  
  You cannot prove as you say God does not exist. In that there is the posiiblility that He does.
  
  I gave a specific account of where God "showed up" and proved His power for all to see and recognize, in this case the 6 day war, and He did not do this to "Prove" Himself to anyone.
  He did this as a demonstration of His love for Israel.
  
  To argue and debate go back and forth is fruitless.
  I will not engage in fruitless conversation with you.
  
  I post and otherwise respond to questions peole ask of me and offer my opinion/belief as you do.
  
  Again, Nobody on here has "out argued" me since none of you have offered any evidence to contradict my beliefs.
  
  Not even with all the vast knowledge people claim to have none has been able to affirm, absolutley, "there is no God".
  
  You can tell me, "well theres no proof He exists" etc. I see proof all around me that God does in fact exist.
  I see Him in the world we live in full of all of its awesome beauty.
  I see Him in the sky above us and the space above that
  I recalled the 6 day war which absolutely was devinely intervened and thus concluded as this was just one example of God being there.
  I have documented cases of miracles that go back thousands of years to provide proof as you say to the existence of God.
  
  And what single shred of proof, whether physical or not do YOU have to prove me wrong, or to prove God does not exist?
  Nothing.
  All your system belief brings is further speculation/doubt/disbelief and confusion.
  
  So in that regard, there is no further argument/debate.
  
  also to say it is I pulling out a "morally superior" card? No. It is not I who feels superior either morally or ethically or any other way. I think it is the other way around. You pplaying the "Self Superior" card.
  
  But God is truly the only judge when it comes to who is morally right or wrong.
  If you feel "convicted" by that standard, that is your problem not mine
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Air superiority with well trained pilots, British and American aircraft, and the exclusive use of America's spy satellite imagery made the competition sitting ducks!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you not read the facts I just cited:
  While the Arab countries continued to receive vast quantities of weapons from their traditional suppliers - the Soviet Union, Great Britain and, to a lesser extent, the United States - Israel's main weapon supplier, France, without warning slapped an arms embargo on Israel; so did the USA.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More than this: the Israeli military was outnumbered on all fronts and in all services
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And again: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic … .aspx/7133
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes read it for yourself whether on here or there
  The facts remain the same
  Whether I lacked in putting the quotation marks or not
  Whether I cited about the war myself or not
  It happened and what happened there was a miracle.
  And you think it was just a coincidence it happened in 6 days? Whatever.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And the points I make, I stick to. America provided that imagery, and they did have those extra planes and support despite the embargo.
  It astounds me that if there is a good or unusual outcome your god did it. An innocent child dies of cancer? No god anywhere! You miss what you don't want to see and exaggerate those you call "miracles" There may well be miracles, but they are not from a psychotic man made entity! Your beliefs make no sense.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it is true children die of cancer along with many other diseases. It is true there are countless numbers of people dying in this world of chaos and sin.
  
  The world as we know it is a vile place. Brought on from the sins of man.
  You want to blame God? fine. You say He cannot possibly be anywhere because of all the injustice you think he ignores? fine.
  
  We will all see someday soon, very soon.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nah it's so easy to see now. Religionists believe god is helping them find there wedding ring, but innocent little ones? Let em die! What a load!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And what about your god?
  What about the god of this world?
  Greed
  Envy
  Lust
  I could go on but I wont.
  See what you fail to see is that you too, in your doubt/disbelief and sin are serving a god.
  The god of self
  
  This god of self causes the deaths of more than 1 million babies every year and thats just in this country alone!
  
  this god of self says "I am greater and more knowledgable than even God Himself!"
  
  This god of self does not know truth because there is no truth found in him.
  
  This god of self persecutes the Christian, the Jew, the believers in God to satisfy their need to be superior having already been found guilty deep inside themselves.
  
  This god of self denies The God who created him or her.
  
  This god of self justifies itself no matter what the offense.
  
  This god of self is too prideful to bow down to any other god.
  
  This god of self is guilty of inflicting the world with pain, sorrow, lies, crimes, every evil under the sun.
  
  So, you want a god to blame for all of that?
  You have one already
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Excuse me butting in, but also included in my world are:
  Music
  Poetry
  Theatre
  Dance
  Sport
  Philosophy
  Trees
  Rainbows
  Wine
  Friendship
  I could go on, but I won't, except to say that it is nonsense to credit God with all the good stuff and man with all the bad.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok you go on believing that then
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, I will
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
Atomswifey - your knowledge and understanding of politics and warfare is about as good as your understanding of your book.

I do like your new definition of proof of god though. Very inventive.

Not very persuasive though. "If a plane avoids a crash it is proof of god, but if a plane crashes, well - these things happen and nothing to do with god."

What are you trying to achieve here?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I have run across the Jewish Zealot before. Daniel Pinner.
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  wordscribe41posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Me too. But, as she says, her "facts" are facts.
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