Christianity: People Don't Send Themselves to Hell, God Sends Them.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   Well I guess we are waiting for you to provide any proof of your outrageous beliefs.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   How do you have a discussion with someone who makes assumptive statements like yours atomswife? You assume your beliefs on others and then wonder why you are challenged for it. It is simple, not everyone believes in your god. I could never believe in an entity who is as insecure and petty as your little biblical god. I do not know any humans that bad!

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      atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I do not wonder about such things
      I know why I am challenged about my beliefs. There is no curiosity about it.

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         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yes it is because it is a ridiculous belief in a neurotic hateful little entity!

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            atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Ok earnest you go on believing that lie

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   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

   It has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden...................

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   BJCposted 14 years ago

   We have been praying for the lost:)

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   mr aspposted 14 years ago

   This is quite simple; i create this world,create you and make life easy for you you rebel i send my dearest son to redeem you.I only ask for one thing,be grateful.Is that too much to ask?

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      Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No problem, if you can prove it

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         BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         God doesn't have to prove Himself - He is.

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         mr aspposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         what proof???

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      BJCposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Truth.  Very well put.  Thanks!!

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   mr aspposted 14 years ago

   What proof are you asking for?

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7. 89

   Paragliderposted 14 years ago

   What proof? Let's agree that while many people believe in God, it's just possible that there is no such entity.
   Let's further agree that the idea of God having a son is at least questionable.
   Let's go one step further and agree that not believing the Christian message is at least as reasonable as believing it.
   Can we all agree on these?

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      All comes from god the source and one who makes contact knows himself to be gods son at the same time being the light himself he says -I am the Light- Me and my father are one.
      Then one can look at god as mother or friend that is his personal prerogative , his relationship with god.

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      mr aspposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't quit eunderstand you now.What are we agreeing on?

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         Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         He is asking you if you can agree to these things.

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         Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Can we agree that there is doubt? That it is unreasonable to insist that the Christian message is 'the truth'.

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            Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            The "believers" will certainly not agree with this.  Faith and ignorance are often interchangeable.

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               Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I have no problem with folk believing anything they want, provided they are willing to admit it doesn't constitute 'knowledge', still less divine truth.

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   Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

   Fairbear, you have indeed found fault with God about this in calling God evil.

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      Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yes I have, but that is beside the point of what you and I are debating. The only issue that is on the table between you and I is whether or not God does the sending. You refuse to admit it. You refuse to even directly address it. And you refuse to acknowledge my reasoning, which at least five other Christians on this thread have acknowledged and agreed with. I just want you to have some integrity and be honest, like those other Christians have managed to do. Afterwards we can talk all you want about whether or not God is evil, which ultimately boils down to a matter of opinion.

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         Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Back to the pool analogy. If someone dies as a result of breaking the rules and rejecting assistance from lifeguards, did the person who built the pool, established the rules, and hired the lifeguards kill this person?
         
         By the logic you apply to insist that God sends people to Hell, you would say that yes, the person who built the pool did indeed kill the person who died as a result of his or her own chosen disregard for water safety.
         
         It's not dishonesty. The fundamental message of Christianity is that Hell is a natural consequence of sin rather than an artificially imposed punishment, just like drowning can be a natural consequence of disregard for water safety, and God, like a lifeguard, is interested in only saving us from such a fate.

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            atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Very Very Good!

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            Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            God created the natural order, did He not? I recall in Genesis' creation story how, when Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, God then banned them from the tree of life and sentenced them to a mortal existence. According to that story, which precludes all other aspects of Christianity, God created the condition that mankind would not live forever, but would die. It was God's punishment for them for their disobedience.
            
            The pool analogy falls short of allegorizing God and man's relationship because the word "nature" or "natural," in Christian thinking, is synonymous with "God's creation." You're making it sound like God's creation was an accident.
            
            So, if Hell is only the "natural" outcome of a non-Christian life, then it would be the same thing to say that Hell is the "divinely orchestrated" outcome of a non-Christian life. Would it not? I mean, tell me how the natural order of things is somehow apart from, or originating from something other that God's perfect plan.

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               atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               The two go hand in hand at times.
               God's law And natural law
               
               To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction (natural law)
               
               For the wages of sin are death
               (Gods law)

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9. 61

   tantrumposted 14 years ago

   Very very good indeed!! I see you all have done your homework !! Now you can go home and be happy !! You're not going to Hell, unlike the other hubbers that are so lost ! Poor people !!. Excellent notes for you AAA+ ! congrats !!

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10. 57

    Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

    But what about poor little Jimmy who ended up in a wheelchair?
    
    
    I noticed none of you religious people cared to respond to this:
    
    
    
    AW - still waiting to hear what you hope to achieve.

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       atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       As in where Mark?
       
       In life? In here?
       where?

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          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Here. In these forums.

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             atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             answered that in another forum topic

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    Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

    Again with the bigoted assumption that all believers are narrow-minded, fearful of any knowledge and literacy, et cetera.
    
    What about "poor little Jimmy," who only exists in reality as a child in need of good PSR and family counseling?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Odd - you create an allusion and I add to it. Now Jimmy only exists in reality.

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    mr aspposted 14 years ago

    Am sure most contributors here are missing the main theme;People don't send themselves to hell. God sends them.We are not trying to prove or disprove the existence of God.
      That being said my reply is that people choose hell.We have two options here; Be Obedient and live longer or Be Stubborn and face it consequences.It is now up to us to choose.We have that free will to choose which ever path we want to follow so i don't see God sending anyone to hell.

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    Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

    Your hypothetical abused and neglected child who is in a wheelchair due to breaking written rules he did not know how to read, if the pool was staffed by qualified and alert lifeguards, probably received a loud and clear verbal warning before he hurt himself.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Oh - but your hypothetical pool builder is fine.
       
       This was an actual occurrence that I personally witnessed. In a pool in Spain. I admit - I added the stuff about the keeping at home and evolution. And it was really the fact that the kid was English and could not read the Spanish signs. Still......
       
       But - you are still avoiding the point I made. Why?

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Maybe he was deaf ? Maybe he was blind ? Just like you !

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          Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          As someone who has advocated for the rights of the hearing and visually impaired, I am a bit appalled at how you would use "deaf" or "blind" to cast an unwarranted aspersion upon someone's intelligence.
          
          I'm not visually or hearing impaired, but what if I was?
          
          A differently abled child should swim, like anyone else, with whatever supervision and assistance necessary to keep the likelihood of safety infractions or accidents to a minimum.
          
          If you'd actually read what Mark posted, you'd know that the child of whom he posted could see the signs but could not read them as they were in Spanish and he only knew English. But I don't know of many people who don't understand a blown whistle and someone yelling something at them in any language as meaning they should stop whatever it is they're doing.

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             tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I thought we were using this example as a symbol? ...So I see ! now we're in the 'real life' !!   So the symbols I used for you : deaf and blind ' I'm going to change them for 'ignorant '

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             Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             There was no life guard. Nor was there a whistle. Any more than there are lifeguards and whistles every where else.
             
             The point I am making is that your analogy is flawed. Because it does not apply to the real world.
             
             You are not a life guard. The bible is not a whistle and the pool does not exist.

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                Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                You better be careful, Mark. If your reasoning becomes too iron-clad she'll chicken out and run. You won't see her again.

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   She will be back on the next thread. That happens a lot.
                   
                   How are you? - long time. Is your old man still speaking to you?

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                      Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Wow, I'm impressed. I guess my writing style is telling. Yeah, he's speaking to me, but not very often. Oh well. Water under the bridge. I'm doing pretty good, thanks for asking.

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                         Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         You think you can hide behind a new user name and avatar?
                         
                         Seriously - I am sorry your dad is being such a dick. What a shame to ruin a perfectly good relationship now on the promise of eternal bliss. Still - that is what religion will do to you.
                         
                         I think my work here is coming to an end. The level of animosity has risen to the point where it is getting me down. And - my email inbox is full of hate mail and offers to save me.
                         
                         The price of infamy............

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                            rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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                            Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            You would be missed, man. Don't let those morons get you down.

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                Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                That's why the whole thing is an analogy.
                
                And whether or not God exists isn't even relevant to this topic, which was whether or not Christianity teaches that God sends people to Hell.
                
                Assume for a moment that God, Heaven, and Hell exist. The Christian teaching on those matters is that people, rather than God, are responsible for their own decisions and their ultimate destiny, so the accusation that Christians believe God, rather than people's own decisions, send people to Hell is patently false.
                
                And Mark, I don't know of any public pool that isn't staffed with life guards. Even some private pools post warnings if there is no life guard on duty.
                You also misunderstood the analogy. The life guard in my analogy is not me (I lack the hubris to put myself in that role), but Jesus. The Bible is a whistle. You had that part right. But the pool is analogous to life, a life with rules, options, risks, and potential danger or even permanent consequences for those who break the rules. It's also a lot of fun for people who follow the rules and stands to make people stronger. In other words, it's analogous to this life. And based on our observations and limited understanding, that does indeed exist.

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Thank you for being condescending.
                   
                   I am well aware of what an analogy is. I am also well aware that your analogy is flawed. I have attempted to fill in the blanks you chose to leave out.
                   
                   And if you do not understand that you are the lifeguard. Well............
                   
                   Hate to break it to you, but Jesus - if he existed is long dead.

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                      Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Irrelevant to the question of whether or not Christianity teaches that God sends people to Hell.

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                atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                But Mark you leave no room for possibilities in your assumptions there.
                
                what I mean by that is,
                You assert there that (1) she is not a lfeguard (a witness for God, in the use of that as it pertains to trying to "save" someone)(2) The Bible is not whistle (it does not tell of the truth) and (3) that the pool (God/heaven/hell do not exist)
                But how can you know that for sure? That is to state that it doesn't or any of that is false?
                
                You cannot.
                
                And so you have to leave open the possibility that it and He does.
                
                And in that, if you leave that possibility open then you would have to agree that the terms and or conditions God laid out for it are there as well.
                Thus concluding the reason WHY we NEED God.
                
                We need Him to save us from being fools and jumping into a waterless pool.

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                   rednckwmnposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Thats the problem. You do NOT know for sure it DOES exist. Have you died? have you been there? what PROOF do you have? You need to leave open the possiballty that it does not exist, by your reasoning. How can you know, for sure?

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Hey - even she cannot tell that she is the lifeguard.
                   
                   Not really interested in the "if you cannot prove it does not exist, it must be true," argument.

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    Randy Godwinposted 14 years ago

    So God made man.  He also made some of us incapable of ignoring logic and science while others have no problem believing in things which go against both.  No free will, just people with different thinking processes.  Jonestown being a prime example of blind faith gone bad because the people who died there didn't question what they were told.  Why did these people die and did they go to hell?

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    Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

    I'm not avoiding the point at all. You completely missed mine, which is that the pool builder is not evil for building a pool and making every reasonable provision for the swimmers' safety, including staffing it with alert lifeguards who will respond to every safety infraction and warn those who endanger themselves or others.
    
    Also, it's rather a matter of common sense that diving into shallow water is dangerous. A lot of the fundamental rules of Christianity are common sense to me anyway. Treat others only as you'd like to be treated, love your neighbor as yourself, and if someone invites you to an eternity of happiness, don't turn it down.

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       Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Is another fundamental of Christianity to ignore and avoid someone who has you cornered? You haven't responded to my last post. Are you taking the time to think about it? You seem to only choose to respond to the points that allow you, by omission of the other points, to maintain your stance. Meanwhile, I've directly responded to and acknowledged every point you've made. Are you hiding from me?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yes you are missing my point. Because you are choosing to only look at part of the story.
       
       You seem quite happy to ignore the fact that the pool builder also created the rules of physics, and also made sure that when he create humans they were unable to breathe under water. He also knows that Jimmy is going to break his neck and suffer brain damage. In fact - he set it up that way on purpose.
       
       And you are not offering an eternity of happiness. In fact - your so-called heaven sound like eternal hell.
       
       Treat others only as you would like to be treated? You mean like accusing me of paranoia because I make a valued judgment that some one is lying to them self when I clearly watch them doing something they claim not to be doing? LOL
       
       OK - That is how I will treat you. Sound familiar?

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          atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yes Mark, but did "Jimmy" willingly jump into the pool knowing how he was created? No. It was by accident obviously. since in knowing how the pool builder creaated him, knowing of the risks if he did in fact break the pool builders rules etc. He would not have jumped into the pool having no water in it! So then, Jimmy obviously fell "victim" to an accident.
          Could the pool inventor prevented the accident? Maybe. Maybe the pool builder could have just reversed the circumstance then right? I mean which lead to the accident?
          
          But nobody goes to hell by way of an accident. hell was created with not an accident in mind.
          There is no accidental means in going to hell, nothing for God to change or alter there.
          If He did, he would not be just according to His standards of law.

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             tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

              
             
             I thought we were using this example as a symbol? ...So I see ! now we're in the 'real life' !! lol  So the symbols I used for you : deaf and blind ' I'm going to change them for 'ignorant '
             This apply to you as well !

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             atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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    tantrumposted 14 years ago

    Pathetic

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    Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

    And I don't feel cornered. Rather, I feel like my point that, regardless of who created Hell, it is people who choose to do evil and choose to go there. God creating a place for the Devil and his angels and knowing what we'll do does not in the least mitigate our own responsibility if we choose to align ourselves with those for whom Hell was intended.
    
    You have ignored every point made about humans being responsible for their own eternal destiny and how free agency is in fact very important in this discussion. No one can choose Heaven unless there is an alternative. No one can choose good unless there is an alternative. No one can choose life without an alternative. No one can even love (a requirement for happiness in this life as well as the next) unless they have the ability to choose. Without free agency, we would all just be the automatons too many accuse Christians of being.
    
    If we had no ability to choose, then yes, it would be against the justice and mercy attributed to God to create and then punish or reward a bunch of living computers for only acting according to their programming. (And God would be an absolute tyrant to create only people incapable of making a decision.)
    
    We have been given free agency, and with that, responsibility over our ultimate fate.
    
    I don't understand how a God who creates rules and consequences is a petty, insecure, evil tyrant, but a God who only creates human computers without any responsibilities or freedoms of their own somehow isn't.

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       Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Valerie, I'm not saying anything about God being evil. Nothing at all. Understand? That is beside the point.
       
       And as for free will. I'll give you that! Sure, lets assume that you're right about free will. Lets assume that it is humans' responsibility that they go to Hell. You can have that. That's not my point either. My point is very simple. My point is God carries out the sentence!
       
       Do you see how simple that is? Forget good and evil. Forget responsibility. Forget free will. You can have it your way on all of those points. But when a person dies and goes to Hell, it is God who takes that person and physically places them there. Even if they go there automatically it is because of an automatic function that God designed. God decided on what the punishment would be. Do you see the simplicity of my claim?
       
       It's as simple as saying that when a child gets spanked, the parent does the spanking. Forget why the spanking is taking place. Forget the rules that were broken and the choices that were made. All of that is incidental. The one carrying out the actual punishment is the parent.
       
       The one carrying out the actual punishment in Christianity is God. That's all I'm saying. Do you see now? You're complicating it too much.

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          Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Actually, it was an essential part of the point Fairbear was trying to make in this thread. I was just trying to keep it on topic.

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             Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Ok, whatever. What's your response to my post? Are you going to avoid it like usual?

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                wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Avoidance is a popular tactic, Fairbear.  Oy Vay! 

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                   tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   She seldom answer mine.  Not that I care !!

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          Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Valerie: In case you don't know which post I'm talking about. It's this one.
          

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    Fairbearposted 14 years ago

    Glad I'm not the only one.

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    Sybil Marieposted 14 years ago

    Okay so first which "Christian" Theology are we talking about?
    There are (I believe) 5 different greek words that are translated as hell in the english version of the Bible( someone correct me if I'm wrong) .
    Some groups like Seventh Day Adventists believe that "Hell" is the grave, they use the quote "The dead know nothing they are like as asleep", in this instance there is really nothing to "Create" . Then to speak to the "Eternal" hell. There is some debate as to the word Eternal. One Translation I have been told (and I don't read greek myself so I could be mistaken), means to consume completely, that is to burn until nothing is left.
    Since the God I believe in is a loving creator I can not believe that he could allow any of his creation to be in torment forever!
      So if I look at it from this angle then I can say yes, if I choose to live a life of hate, giving pain to others etc. and are happiest living that way then first of all I would be miserable in a place of peace and light. So really that is my choice, isn't it?

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       Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Well, obviously I'm not talking about your version of Christianity. I'm merely talking about the most popular version of Christian theology. I call it "mainstream," but I think that's just my own term. These are the people who think that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will go to Hell for eternity when they die.

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    wordscribe41posted 14 years ago

    What really gets me here are the number of Christians promoting Pacal's Wager.  That is, the idea that if God does exist, and you live your life accordingly, the payoff is infinite (you'll avoid Hell and go to Heaven). However, if God does NOT exist and you similarly live your life as if he does, you lose absolutely nothing.  So, it makes the most sense to have faith in his existence as "you have nothing to lose."
    
    So, why are Chrisitians convinced THEIR God is the one to worship and the one to keep them out of Hell?  Man worships thousands of deities, does he not?  How do you know you're worshipping the CORRECT God?  What is you're worshipping the wrong one and your punishment for that will be worse than being a nonbeliever?  How do you know Christianity is right and Islam is wrong and you won't be punished severely by Allah?  There goes your "safe bet" argument straight out the window.
    
    Furthermore, I do have something to lose.  I have countless church hours I would attend, money I'd give to my church, I would have abandoned scientific evidence as my basis for judging the truth and reality.  Some believers have forsaken medicine in place of prayer and died.  Let's not forget the poisonous liquids people have died from because Jesus said it would be okay.  And, let's not forget 9-11.  Nothing to lose?  I think not.

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       Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I'd say a lifetime spent encumbered by a delusion is a hell of a price to pay for assurance that you'll escape some fabled, unverified, improbable fate in a speculated afterlife.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Well said. There is also the problem of appearing as mad as a whistling kettle to those who have a logical way of seeing the world, without the sky fairies!

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       Sybil Marieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         This is where people have taken a word given in love and peace and warped it into there own agenda You can't blame God for that, blame man.
       God gave us minds, to use, to think, to discover. Why would you abandon scientific evidence? Again if God did create us, science helps explain the how of creation. Without God we were created in a vacumm, and we are going nowhere. I don't know but to me it takes more "Faith" to believe that.

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          No the bible is the source of hate.
          
          
            "I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD.  "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die.  I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD.  "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship.  I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear.  For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars.  They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too.  So now I will destroy them!  And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do.  They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings."   (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
          
          Nice little neurotic god!

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          wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          You've in no way given any kind of rebuttal to my argument, though.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Who made this god?

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Mattel

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    

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    Sybil Marieposted 14 years ago

    Ahhh the million dollar question! :-) God is the eternal,not a created being.

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       wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Okay, let me present a rational argument here.  Let's just say that God IS eternal, perfect, omniscient, and unchanging.  Then, I don't suppose God would then NEED a universe.  And then, since he's eternal, perfect and unchanging, then why would he go make the shift from not needing/creating a universe to eventually needing/creating one?  This God would have been in existence for an eternity, and THEN he would have decided to create a universe.  That makes no sense, unless you want to argue the universe has ALWAYS been in existence.  Science has shown it's NOT always been in existence. But, then you couldn't argue that God created the universe.  A real conundrum, don't you think?
       
       Additionally, the burden of proof is on the believers to prove the existence of God, not on us nonbelievers to prove he doesn't exist.  If I tell you I have a VERY hungry pink unicorn that needs food and I ask you to please run to the store to get it food, the burden of proof in on ME to show you this pink unicorn exists.  Does it not?  If I were unable to prove this assertion about the unicorn, you as a reasonable person would reject its existence.  The one making the claim for such a proposition is the one that must provide the proof.  Simple as that.  Somehow this logic is not applied when it comes to religion.

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          That is why indoctrination is needed to be religious. Even a cursory glance at self removes the need of a hate filled entity that is worse than the worlds worst dictators.

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             wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I've been warned in this very forum about the problems arising from "self", Earnest.

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          mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          "Day to dawn makes no sense,
          What does we call non sense. "

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             wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Hi mohit!  How are you?  I'm confused by your quote...  Can you explain?

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                mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Hi wordscribe doing good , how about you?
                we are living in a world which doesn't make any sense.
                To say there is a creator or god is something many don't understand and call non sense as he is beyond  any analytical reason as such.
                Trying to prove god exists is something very difficult to do  , trust me I am a poet and have tried very hard in my book.
                
                "This is one weird dimension,
                In the end will be my redemption."

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                   wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   As such, you are a rational man, mohit.  One I enjoy listening to.  By the way, I'm great.  Enjoying the last few days of summer and preparing for the kids to return to school.  Take care!

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                      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Thanks and you are sweet, take care too .

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    Sybil Marieposted 14 years ago

    cute tantrum!! Too funny!!

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    OK looks like god made himself!

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    Sybil Marieposted 14 years ago

    okay how do I get those smiley faces!!!!!

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    Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

    In the box where it says 'Post Reply' bottom right, click on 'Formatting Tips
    
    Leave a space then type in the icons ,hit submit

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    Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago

    Welcome to Hubpages too

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    Sybil Marieposted 14 years ago

    

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    ... and your argument that science supports religion is a fallacy.

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    mcbeanposted 14 years ago

    As usual I agree with Ernest
    
    Indoctrination is the name of the game.
    
    The brainwashing of children perpetuates religion.
    
    The only adults who 'find' religion for the first time are those who have had a crisis (drugs, alcohol addiction, death in the family etc) and need a psychological crutch.
    
    Normal adults, free from the stress of catastrophic life events do not suddenly say " Wait a minute, God sound like a good deal, I'm in!"
    
    The only adults I have ever seen convert (or revert) under normal circumstances do so for love (or lust). This is not true religion, just ticking a box to get what you want. If there was a God, I am not sure they would approve.

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       mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Kings have gained enlightenment, they had everything and were still empty.Religions are teachings of great masters who lead man towards god or their real self and are not evil in any way .Tragedy or death of a close one does make a person stop and think.What is death? Why does one die? Where do I go after death? etc. etc.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Thanks mcbean. I do not have a problem understanding that religionists take the stance they do.
    I was once religious and look back on it with laughter. I was as blind as a bat. Lucky though, I got away from the influence and recognized it for what it was. You should have seen what the religionists that indoctrinated me was like. he made all sorts of excuses for his deplorable behavior towards children and adults in his life. i was amazed that this zealot could justify anything at all from his beliefs, but when I read the bible properly in three languages I saw how he could use religions to justify anything he wanted, from sex to money!

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    I believe that religion is the root of evil. Men use it to deny their human condition, deny science, deny knowledge, and put themselves above others and so justify murder and war. I guess we disagree again Mohit!

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       Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The misuse of religion is not to be represented as religion itself.

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yet it is constantly misused. There are a dozen countries in the world at this time killing thousands in the name of their religion or because of it. Time Magazine just did an article about it.
          You are right of course, religion is not THE root of all evil, I got that wrong. The human condition is at fault here. Religion from the bible or quoran do provide the hate to drive these wars and hate though.

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             mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             well, i don't think so. religions condemn other religions. like in ancient japan where christians are prosecuted/beheaded/raped, in the US Christians are busy with burning "witches", islam is too busy stoning or beheading "infidels", tribes busy with eating other tribes, etc etc and then comes the cycle of hate blah blah blah
             
             we humans are the root of all evil. no humans, no problem. however, humans refuse to die.

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                wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Yes, but no doubt there would be LESS violence in the world if people weren't doing heinous crimes in the name of religion.

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                   mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   as long as there are people, there will be chaos.

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                      My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      As long as there are people unyielding to love there will be chaos ?
                      
                      Evil is the root of all evil.
                      
                      People merely perform it willingly?

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                         mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         love is a chemical, straight from the genitals coupled with moral and social conditioning. that's all there is to it.

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                            wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            LOL:  He or she is referring to Jesus the messiah:  Genesis 49:10-11. Until Shiloh Come
                            "Therefore, Messiah would be Shiloh the King, bringing Salvation, Justice, and Judgment."
                            
                            Shiyloh means Jesus.  Just replace LOVE with Jesus. 

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                            My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            Love is higher than this description above of little more than an animals love.
                            Love is not chaos.
                            Love in not a religion.
                            Love is pure.
                            
                            Love is the root of love.
                            Evil is the root of evil.
                            
                            You make a choice to yield to one.

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             Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Christianity does not provide or promote hate, and anyone who does in that religion's name is misusing and misrepresenting it.
             
             Science is also misused all time time. How many societies, not all of them religious, used or are using the ability to enrich uranium to threaten other countries with nuclear annihilation? How many people have misused genetics and the theory of evolution to to try to justify eugenics laws? How many men cite evolutionary biology or anthropology as an excuse to behave barbarically toward women?
             
             Just because a belief or idea can be misused doesn't mean it's bunk.

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                mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                that's pretty good, i mean it. religion, science or whatever, bottom line still is, humans are evil.

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                   Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   That's very pessimistic. I'd rather say humans are complex. We have good and bad propensities, that's all.

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                      mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      hahahah quite true. but there really isn't good or evil. it's just a concept.

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                         Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         I'd say there isn't an external standard of good & evil, but there are certainly societal standards of behaviour that helps or hinders the human condition.

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                            earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            That seems to be a sound position. I think man has the capacity for both.

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                               mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               ahh yes. a very good answer indeed. you, me, i mean we are just being human.

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                Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                You talk as though you actually have something to say. You make yourself seem intelligent, knowledgeable, and fair. But you've displayed a complete lack of accountability concerning the topic of this thread. You engaged me, the originator of the thread, in what I thought was a serious debate. You challenged me and I met the challenge. We were moving towards a conclusion, and when you saw that it would be in my favor, you disappeared --right in the heat of the debate. Then you pop up somewhere else where you're not being seriously challenged, hoping I'll just go away if you ignore me. Well, don't worry, you're safe now. This is the last time I'm gonna ask you to have some character. I won't expect you to finish what you started like any mature, serious debater would. And I'll know from now on what to expect from you.

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                   Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Where did I see that the conclusion would be in your favor?

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                      Fairbearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      The moment you stopped acknowledging my posts.

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       mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       For me religions , spiritually and science are all connected.I am known to be harmless and I am knower of the spirit and not those who harm and kill in the name of god, they don't know god or the spirit.
       They are fanatics misusing their religions as no religion teaches one to do harm to anyone.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    I agree we are evil. The trick is to recognize that without the religion! When humans can see the evil in themselves and take it on, they no longer feel compelled to act it out. .
    Of course it is a hell of a lot easier to say "The devil made me do it!

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       mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       well, they could just say "fuck it" and just kill anyway. it's just that religion has an easy excuse for their actions. humans should go extinct imo. let's give pigs/dogs/other animals a chance to evolve and think.
       
       i however don't want to die, i'm just being human.

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Humans are the destroyers aren't we? The other animals live with nature and the planet pretty well. We are the only animal to destroy our own nest!

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             mobilephone guideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             i do believe that humans are living contradictions.

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    wordscribe41posted 14 years ago

    Hey, Earnest.  I know you like a good laugh as proven last night on the Chesse post! Read this:  http://www.examiner.com/x-17505-Oakland … -Arguments
    
    You will most certainly appreciate it.  A nice reprieve.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I'll say it is a reprieve! That is seriously funny!
       By the way, I know I am back quickly. I am doing a speed reading course. Wish I could type as fast as I read!

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          wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Man, you are a speed reader.  It really is funny stuff though.  I read it often after leaving these forums.

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    XTASISposted 14 years ago

    Preety lot of evil around here though. In this forum, I mean

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    Evil being those who disagree with you?

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       XTASISposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No. Evil being those who snub, who makes fun a,d who laughs at somebody ele's worries. Lots of people without a heart. Lots of alter egos as well. I'm always  an outsider and seldom come in.  Luckily nobody has attacked me so far

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    It does get crazy on here!

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       XTASISposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Some people are nice though. Like you for instance. I got 4 new fans right now. They went to check my hubs and liked them. I like that, as I seldom fan . I hate fanning just because

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    My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago

    Is it not true that when one does not act out of love, then they are tormented within?
    
    When one knows that they desire to be loving and yet are powerless to love and thus feel a certain torment inside.
    
    When one does not act in love, does it not also torment the ones they love?
    Thus adding to ones torment and feeling powerless to always love no matter the cost.
    
    When they seek out love through other people, places and things.
    When they give what they think is love and do not get what they think to be love in return and they become angry and bitter. Not realizing that love gives and expects nothing in return because it is needless.
    
    When one finds they are 40, 50, 60, 70, 80+ and still cannot love at all times and have not surrendered completely to love, but try and love by their own power and fail time and time again.
    
    When one cannot as it were "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...and do this at ALL TIMES no matter how one feels like acting.
    
    Love is an action with NO regard for how the freewill, individual and self feels.
    
    What is one to do to be relieved from this torment?

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    marianne1832posted 14 years ago

    All of this makes me glad I am not a Christian. One cannot believe in an unconditionally loving God who picks and chooses who his/her people are and sends the rest to so-called hell.
    
    Only when we all understand and accept without condition that we come from the exact same Source and are connected to each other by this Divine spark, will there ever be peace in our hearts, our communities, our country and our world. We are all spirits going through a human experience, and when we finally realize this and act upon it, the world will change for the better, because we have chosen to see ourselves as an extension of God on earth.
    
    The free will rant that people seem to harp on is a very simple thing to understand. Free will is nothing more than making a choice in whatever situation we find ourselves in. When we ask for and listen to the guidance that comes from that still small voice inside all of us, we are likely to make choices based on truth, we walk in the light and are connected to the Creator.
    
    When we make choices based on ego, lies, fear or the opinions of others, we separate ourselves from the Divine, and life becomes chaotic and confusing.
    
    While I am not a member of any organized religion, I have an unshakable faith in the God of the Universe who loves us unconditionally no matter what and is closer than our next breath. It has taken me many years and many tears to get to this place.
    
    Organized religion in my opinion diminishes the true nature of the Divine by putting God in its own personal box.
    
    I suggest people read the three volume "Conversations With God," by Neale Donald Walsh. Here is the true nature of the God everyone purports to worship.

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       Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       But see, Christianity does not teach that.

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          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yes it does. You are too ignorant even to understand what your irrational belief system teaches. Odd that you drop out of every single conversation as you are forced to concede and then reappear later. How very christian of you.
          
          You cannot give god the credit for the good and blame man for the bad.
          
          That would be irrational.

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    Valerie Fposted 14 years ago

    A Christian does not concede defeat when he or she isn't defeated. That would be dishonest.
    
    An unconditionally loving God would not accept someone back into the family who makes everyone else in the family miserable and doesn't want to live by the family's rules. At such a point, the most loving thing to do is to let said miscreant go.
    
    It's also not irrational to give God credit for originating all that is good in the world, as well as for giving us the ability to appreciate it and help others reap the benefits as well. We choose to love. We choose to do good. But when God created the universe and first deemed it good, that was not our choice, so we don't get that credit.
    
    As for what's good or what's bad, considering how every human (barring, according to Christian teaching only Jesus) capable of making a choice has chosen to do bad, what gives any person the moral authority to make that decision?
    
    Believers ascribe that authority to God, particularly if they believe in human equality. Rather than simply call belief in any moral authority higher than humanity irrational, maybe if you were so interested you could explain to me how it is rational to believe that people alone decide what's good or bad and that there is indeed such a thing as evil rather than mere defiance of social consensus, while at the same time believing that all people are equal. I'm not silly enough to pretend atheists are all moral relativists, because I know too many who are, in fact, not. So how does moral absolutism coupled with the belief that all people are equal square with the rejection of any authority higher than people?

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    Fairbearposted 14 years ago

    The question is this:
    Why would Christians insist that their God doesn't send people to Hell?
    
    I mean, I've proven that He does. If God makes the rules, then God is the one who enforces them. There's no simpler way to put it. Mankind doesn't enforce the rules under which he's been placed. The enforcer does. This is so elementary that a toddler could understand it. "Who spanked you, little Jimmy?" "My Mom did."
    
    And most Christians who I point this out to agree with me. Because it's so simple and obvious. Five Christians on this thread have agreed with me already. And the ones who disagree either avoid my point altogether (Valerie) or simply say, "I don't know how it's possible --it's just what I believe." I've talked to numerous Christians in person who have agreed with me as well.
    
    But every Christian who has responded to my point, whether on this thread or off, whether they agreed with me or not, has immediately followed their response with a lengthy explanation about mankind's free will. They immediately jump to the defense of their God --even though I'm not calling God's character into question!! Nowhere in my original post do I allude to God's character! So why do Christians feel they need to defend it by explaining how the ultimate responsibility rests on mankind? God's character is beside the point.
    
    I know the answer to this question. The reason why Christians immediately jump to the defense is because they themselves feel that God is evil for sending people to Hell. When the issue of God's character hasn't even been mentioned, it is still the first place their minds go. As soon as they see that their God indeed does do the sending, He indeed is the enforcer of His rules, something stirs in them that compels them to explain why God does this. This is because without the explanations and lengthy free will analogies, the bare, plain truth of God's sending people to Hell feels evil. This is a human reaction no matter if you're Christian, atheist, or something else. The heart doesn't lie. But Christians don't want to listen to it.

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       wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       SO TRUE.  It could be any simpler, Fairbear.  VERY well said.  Youve no doubt found the simplest, most rational arguments are the ones ignored, however.  No one's addressed mine.  In response to a poster stating that God wasn't created, that's he's eternal, always has been, I posted this, and no response.  Okay, let me present a rational argument here.  Let's just say that God IS eternal, perfect, omniscient, and unchanging.  Then, I don't suppose God would then NEED a universe.  And then, since he's eternal, perfect and unchanging, then why would he go make the shift from not needing/creating a universe to eventually needing/creating one?  This God would have been in existence for an eternity, and THEN he would have decided to create a universe.  That makes no sense, unless you want to argue the universe has ALWAYS been in existence.  Science has shown it's NOT always been in existence. But, then you couldn't argue that God created the universe.  A real conundrum, don't you think?
       
       Additionally, the burden of proof is on the believers to prove the existence of God, not on us nonbelievers to prove he doesn't exist.  If I tell you I have a VERY hungry pink unicorn that needs food and I ask you to please run to the store to get it food, the burden of proof in on ME to show you this pink unicorn exists.  Does it not?  If I were unable to prove this assertion about the unicorn, you as a reasonable person would reject its existence.  The one making the claim for such a proposition is the one that must provide the proof.  Simple as that.  Somehow this logic is not applied when it comes to religion.
       
       And never mind another post I made that said the following:  What really gets me here are the number of Christians promoting Pacal's Wager.  That is, the idea that if God does exist, and you live your life accordingly, the payoff is infinite (you'll avoid Hell and go to Heaven). However, if God does NOT exist and you similarly live your life as if he does, you loose absolutely nothing.  So, it makes the most sense to have faith in his existence as "you have nothing to lose."
       
       So, why are Chrisitians convinced THEIR God is the one to worship and the one to keep them out of Hell?  Man worships thousands of deities, does he not?  How do you know you're worshipping the CORRECT God?  What is you're worshipping the wrong one and your punishment for that will be worse than being a nonbeliever?  How do you know Christianity is right and Islam is wrong and you won't be punished severely by Allah?  There goes your "safe bet" argument straight out the window.
       
       Furthermore, I do have something to lose.  I have countless church hours I would attend, money I'd give to my church, I would have abandoned scientific evidence as my basis for judging the truth and reality.  Some believers have forsaken medicine in place of prayer and died.  Let's not forget the poisonous liquids people have died from because Jesus said it would be okay.  And, let's not forget 9-11.  Nothing to lose?  I think not.
       
       The most obvious, rational arguments are left alone, it seems. 

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          atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Ok I will take this one by one to answer your points as I believe them to be true.
          
          First, why is it you believe that god in creating the universe did so out of a "need"? If you were to suppose lets say He did so out of "desire" a "want" than He would then not have changed at all.
          In your argument you left no reason whatsoever to that as a possibility.
          
          additionally, "the burden of proof" is NOT on the believers. There is no burden to prove He exists because it is by FAITH that we believe. It is by faith we called on to believe. The "proof" you seek in order for YOU to believe, you already have known. It is as God stated in Romans, since the beginning you have known God is. it is really the indoctrination of sin which deludes you to Him as of now. It is your lack of faith which demonstrates exactly what God said it would.
          
          You give the example of the pink unicorn you are trying to feed etc. But there you are attaching a physical object to being that of God. He is not nor will He ever be our pink unicorn in which we have to feed.
          In other words, God is not someone we have to make you believe in, in order for Him to be/exist.
          The unicorn however you gave analogy to would have to exist in order for you to have the need to feed it as well as provide proof for in order to get someone else to buy the food for it.
          
          You too there are expecting us Christians to provide physical proof you know we cannot provide. But it was provided to you already in all that He created. You can see it clearly in evrything there is here and beyond here. But you choose to argue that evolution happened. That everything came to be by chance. And in that belief, you are choosing to ignore the proof of God you seek.
          
          My point being this, science has said that everything came to be as a matter of natural process through evolution. It is a man made and or created idea that this is so. They have no proof of this being the case and even to the extent that there is no real reasoning or logic in that sort of belief.
          
          Being that, if you believe everything happened by chance, or natural selection then you have to believe that if I had a bag of apples with a hole in it and they fell in a perfect uniform in a circle lets say, that that event happens naturally. Being it does not, you would have to believe then, that someone placed the apples in that formation. That the circle was in fact created.
          
          If you then apply the same principles to the creation of the universe, the earth etc. you will see clearly it was in fact created and did not happen by chance.
          
          But those who choose to believe not in God but in mans made up theories/speculations they are then only deceiving themselves to stay defiant of God. To stay in their disbelief/sin. To stay in their world of sin thinking that they will not be held accountable to Him. It is easier for them to "will" Him away and or dismiss the reality that He is. In that disbelief, there is no responsibility to be had. No real moral compass only that which they hold themselves to, according to man's carnal perception of that morality.
          
          As far as your connection between us believing and losing nothing if He does not exist, and your "losses", let me ask you this:
          Are your "losses" going to matter one single bit if you are right? How will they really be "losses" if it all ends as you as you say? You will be gone, zip, natta, no more *pift*, so those losses you describe will not really be losses as you will not suffer any penalty or disadvantage as a result of, as you cannot, if what you believe is true.
          
          However, you do suffer great losses, if I or rather we, or rather still, God is right and you do not begin to open your heart to Him and believe.
          
          How can we "know" we are serving the right god? Faith! we know The one true GOD through it, through seeing all He created and all that is to be. We do not give reflection to any other god. My God says, Thou shalt have NO other gods before me.
          
          Further, Jesus did not say to have wreakless abandon in our faith and lack knowledge neither common sense when concerning our health and or the seeking of help when concerning it. Have there been people who have done that? Yes. But does it mean that all do or have to or that the Bible teaches on that sort of mentality? NO! And if you go to the scripture concerning "you shall trample on snakes..." That scripture in no way means we are to go out in the desert, find a snake and step on it! Please.

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    My Friend Shiylohposted 14 years ago

    If one refuses love.
    
    Love lets them go.
    
    Love does not need to be accepted as it gives love and expects nothing.
    
    If I am treating someone with love and they reject it, I move on and let them be.
    
    One without love is already in torment wherever they are, be it this realm or not.

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    Fairbearposted 14 years ago

    wordscribe41:
    
    Yeah, I read those posts. Maybe I should've at least lent you some support. Actually, I think I did comment on one of them. The one about supposedly having nothing to lose by choosing belief over non-belief. I'd say there's a heck of a lot to lose, like, say, a lifetime spent blinded to reality, encumbered by a delusion, unable to experience real life, with every moment spent preoccupied by death. I'll take my chances on that unverified, improbable, mythical place called Hell.
    
    As for your first point. I've never really thought about that before, but you're right. If God is unchanging, "the same yesterday, today, and forever," as the Bible states, then how do you explain Him changing to create a universe? Good one.
    
    All I can do is agree with you. But you probably won't get much attention from those only interested in their delusions.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       These posts were top drawer, both you and wordscribe have offered good questions and propositions that need more than a quote from whichever "good book" the religionists have chosen to base their beliefs in.
       I have also asked many questions in religious hubs. I have never had a reply that was not part of a pre-supposed entity that wanders from omnipotent to powerless, omniscient yet ignorant, all knowing, but psychotic and the list goes on.
       
       I have often thought the story of Adam and Eve would be enough proof of absurdity! .... all those kids with two heads!

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    This assumptive babble answers no questions, it simply puts up straw men then knocks them down.
    
    Most of what you say assumes the non believer to be included in your belief system as the stem of your argument!
    That is ridiculous and makes no sense at all.

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       She only wants to fight, so this is what you get. It's not going to improve

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          atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Oh I'm sorry I could have sworn wordscribe41 said that nobody had addressed her post, I thought that's what I was doing.

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             wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             No, I agree, you're not fighting here, I appreciate your addressing my post, in fact.  It wasn't at all argumentative, in fact you throroughly addressed all my questions.  I'm going to offer my counter-points when I get more of a chance as, like you, I have kiddies to get ready for bed, etc... 
             
             Thanks for your response.  I'll be back after the kids aren't racing around and distracting my thought process. 

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Good morning tantrum.

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             tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Good night for me !

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                earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Good evening then tantrum. What time you got there? it is 11 am Friday here.

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                   tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Thursday 10 pm

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    cosetteposted 14 years ago

    i was raised in the Catholic faith. went to catholic school, etc. While there, I fell in love with the beautiful imagery and Latin recitations, crucifixes, and all of the rest, and really tried to follow the Golden Rule in all of my dealings with people. but not because i feared God. but because i wanted to do what was right...i wanted to treat other people the way i wanted them to treat me. in Cathechism, they really talk about Jesus a lot...the Good Shepherd...i saw Jesus as a kind, loving and simple man without any trace of arrogance, and modest about his holy purpose. i thought he would be someone i could talk to and really share my soul with and he would not judge me in any way, and wouldn't punish me or call me a sinner.
    
    but i saw GOD as something to be feared. aloof, way up there on his mighty throne, looking down on all of us as ants. ants to be smashed if we didn't obey him. i could also never reconcile how God gave his own son, Jesus. to the world to torment and sacrifice in the most brutal way. Jesus said we are all God's children and that God loves his children. i wouldn't allow anyone to hurt my child in any way and would get ugly very quickly if i saw anyone hurting my child, and would certainly never sacrifice my child as God sacrificed his, or as he compelled others in the Bible to, to prove their love to him.
    
    even in my innocence, i knew that was a big load of hogwash - what kind of a god WAS God anyway? he seemed peevish, petulant, prone to rages and only capable of loving his children conditionally, which seemed unfair. i wondered why God would make humans so full of powerful instincts and emotions and yet punish them for these very basic instincts he allegedly created them with. that was like making a robot that stutters then punishing it for stuttering.
    
    and another thing - i always felt that "sparing the rod spoils the child" was wrong too - how is inflicting pain and fear onto your children being a loving parent? those nuns would beat little kids with rulers if they didn't know their lessons - fear and terrorizing of small children - that didn't seem very loving and i didn't think Jesus would like that. he would think it was ridiculous!
    
    and then there's the commandment to honor your mother and your father. no matter what. your parents could be mean to you and hit you because that was sanctioned by the church - inflicting pain on someone you're supposed to protect in the cloak of biblical education and godlike child-rearing. :p
    
    i always wondered why there was no "honor thy children" commandment.
    
    so, even with that intense indoctrination and sincere attempts on my part to be good and really practice what was preached to me, i never EVER believed in Hell. or Heaven. or Adam and Eve being the parents of the whole human race. because it just didn't make sense.
    
    then i wondered why God, who is like HUGE.......omnipotent and omnipresent...why does he allow people to suffer and die from famine, flies crawling all over their helpless faces, babies' faces that look like mummified skulls? or allow people to inflict the cruelest types of acts upon the most helpless creatures, like egg companies throwing live baby chicks in grinders because they see them as useless, for example, or people torturing animals for fun, or abusing helpless infants like BabyP?
    
    if any one of us imperfect humans came across a situation like that, we would attempt to stop it and rescue the innocent, even at our own peril.
    
    yet God, who presumably could stop it all with the blink of an eye...a flick of his all-powerful pinky finger, does nothing.
    
    which is why i am not a Christian anymore.
    
    i live a good life. i treat people with respect, am kind and loving and help people and have done a lot of nice things throughout my life for no reason other than to do what is right. but because i am not born again i am going to Hell. meanwhile a child-killer who finds Jesus gets a free pass to Heaven.
    
    which also makes no sense to me.
    
    thank you.

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I knew you were cool   I  Agree with you. Nobody with a little bit of sense can believe in such a God

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I agree. I am always amazed that religionists think that believing what they do is the only way to understand and have morals, while they display their lack of them!

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          cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          thank you.
          
          
          
          wow. lot to read through. i don't have a lot of time to type a lengthy reply, and i want to say that i respect your right to believe as you choose.
          
          have you ever heard that expression 'heartsore'? that is how i feel when i think of all of the awful things going on in the world. as you are a Christian, i assume that you believe in the power of prayer.
          
          now, see, that it what i have always had a problem with. we were taught that if you behave yourself and don't sin, and pray to God, that he will intervene and help you...help those who believe. well, i did! i believed. and God ignored my prayers. i don't want to go into my personal experience for the sake of a forum post, but it never seemed fair that rich, bratty kids had it so good and poor, well behaved nice kids like myself had it bad. REALLY bad. what did those dying children in Africa do to deserve God ignoring their pleas? they have no free will. their parents have none either and are not responsible for their plight. their governments have free will to brutalize them, steal their food and medicine from the Red Cross trucks with their soldiers - but why must the lesson go ON AND ON AND ON for centuries, if that is what God is trying to teach us? i think we get it by now.
          
          and another thing..."spare the rod" was written by men to control unruly children. the Bible was written a LONG time ago, when people viewed children differently, if the Bible is truly the word of the Almighty, why does it not hold up in modern times? God is great and good and if old songs can hold up in modern times, then something authored by God, who is perfect, should hold up as well. hitting your children is not discipline - it is inflicting pain on someone a lot smaller than you, causing fear and shame and hurt and anger. DISCIPLINE is what trains your child to understand consequences for undesirable behavior, and disciplining a child takes a lot of work and forethought and is a hundred times more difficult to do than dragging out the belt or paddle and swatting them with it, or just using your hand for that matter. you know what? i can look at my hands and know that these hands never ever hurt my child. and today he is a very fine, responsible, thoughtful and compassionate young person, and i never laid a hand on him. it was his friends whose parent hit them that were hitters themselves. he learned to resolve conflicts with his peers through other means instead of hititng back. which is not to say he is a pacifist - if push comes to shove, he would defend himself.
          
          i know there is no commandment to hit your child. i just wondered how God left out a commandment to honor your children. i guess "honor" means "obey", instead of what it should mean - respect.
          
          yes i know about God and Jesus being one and the same...which is another thing that never made sense...why? because scripture says "God loved the world so much he gave his only-begotten son"...he made the ultimate sacrifice - his child, right? but wait...he sacrificed himself? hmm that's not as dramatic or compelling as someone giving their beloved child.
          
          you see what i mean?
          
          i have known people who love to brag that God watched out for them...like one time this guy and his wife got stuck in the middle of nowhere one dark night and they, being good Christians, prayed hard and God miraculously started their car. see, that to me is extremely arrogant - it says "i am on the fast track to God and you're not"...where are the guardian angels for people who really need it?

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       atomswifeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Please if you will allow me and I will post this in two parts:
       
       You said in that, that You saw Jesus one way and God another. Which as to perception the way we "see" it here on earth, A father in relation to his son are seperate. But Jesus Himself said that He and God the father are one and the same.
       So in that respect, if you were to look at Jesus and see Him as loving, kind, etc. You are in fact really seeing God that way as well. But I relize you did not or do not recognize that. Which is fine.
       
       So next I will focus my response on what you said concerning children and or Gods lack of love for His own as He sent Him to be tormented and killed etc.
       If you were to consider that God and Jesus are one and the same, then you would ahve to agree that God sent Himself as a sacrifice for us. But you could then argue that "But there are scriptual refrences to Jesus being on the right hand of God etc" and you'd be right. But then suppose amd I am asking that you only open your heart and or mind to the possibility of, that God, being God could have placed a large part of Himself into the body of Christ. Being that Jesus was born as we are "into sin", He was perfect as God is perfect. He did say so himself.
       
       So then we come to the question of God having others as you put it sacrifice their child to Him. There is only one reference to this that I know of in the Bible and it was concerning Abraham and his son, Isaac. God did in fact compel him to do that. But if you recall he then told Abraham to not follow through with it. God in that circumstance sought to prove to Abraham as well as all others who would have been a witness to, that Abrahams willingness to do that, his obedience, his service to God was so great that he would do anything God commanded. Abraham's story in this case was a testament as to the faith we can all have. That our faith being human, born into sin, etc just as Abraham was is not limited. We do have the strength to do Gods will. Not that God really wanted him to actually do it or follow through, as is evident by Him stopping the act of it.
       Also from that story we find where Abraham had ears with which to hear God. He heard the command from Him and so, by that we know we have the capability to do the same.
       
       So then we come to why it is we have the commandment to honor our father and mother but not to honour our children. But you need to read further on to understand this.
       God did instruct for us to not exasperate our children. Not to cause them to become angry or hurt, frustrated.
       The fact that it is posed for us to not "spare the rod" is reasoned why. Because to not discipline our children we spoil them.
       Simply because there are those who take that to extreme then and beat their children is not in anyway reflective of what God intended for man to do with that instruction or guideline. Not that He commanded it either. He simply said, if you spare the rod, you will spoil the child. That is not him commanding us to spank and or beat our children. There is no such commandment written.

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          tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            What's so wrong in your life, that you're so bitter ?! It's amazing  the way you react at some other belief. !!! Stop being so short minded.!!!
          This is an advice from the sick little man

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    oscillationatendposted 14 years ago

    Heaven is filled with those who have been forgiven, Hell is filled with those who can't forgive themselves.
    
    End'o'Story.

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         End of story for you. So short mind, has a short ending

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    oscillationatendposted 14 years ago

    No, I'm afraid not.
    
    The very idea that Heaven and Hell exists is a narrow view in of it's self.
    
    Let's have a judge, a jury, and chief of command.
    
    Let's have a black, a white.
    
    Let's have a good, a bad.
    
    Let's have a binary view.
    
    Please, do tell me more...because humanity hasn't imagined enough for it's self already to scare it's generations into an autocratic system.

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       tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Let's have a break !

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    oscillationatendposted 14 years ago

    Agreed.

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    atomswifeyposted 14 years ago

    continued for cosette:
    
    And in that you take how man or in the case you stated the church has interpreted and twisted Gods word to reflect something it didn't. And then you blame God for it. I would think one could reason, it was the church that was in the wrong there. For twisting Gods word into their own version of the truth, rather than what the truth actually is.
    
    And then we come to human suffering and why it is any god would allow for such things to happen. Ok lets examine this to some detail.
    god created us having free will, in that we have the choice to do good or evil right? So when speaking about the suffering at someone else hands, it is they who make that choice. God is not as some would have you believe a "puppet master" (yes that ones for you earnest lol ) He is not and does not have strings over our heads controlling our every move. There are circumstances that do happen in this life, by chance. Now having said that, could God intervene in such cases and stop all of the suffering, all of the pain etc. Yes He could. Then the question becomes, Then why doesn't He?
    
    Ok lets suppose you have a child. And you love your child. You adore your child. Do you then in that love place that child in a bubble forever to protect him/her from anything bad that could possibly happen? If you could that with your child, even ion knowing all the bad things that might happen to Him or her, would you? As well, if God were to lets say, change/alter every aspect of our lives and the lives of others that would negate our own free will and too we then would not experience life at all. Not in the reality that we know it to be.
    
    As a result of sin coming to be in this world, the harsh realities of suffering, pain, death, came along with that. It was mans decision which dictated that sin coming to be in this world.
    Did God know ahead of time it would, yes. Could He have avoided or stopped it, not without negating free will.
    
    So you say, well my goodness, then negate the free will right? But then why create us at all then? God already has created beings which serve him, worship Him all the time not being created in the image or likeness of God having choices, free will.
    Thats where we, His creation are special and unique in the universe.
    
    Now, you still say, "but why do we have to suffer as a result of something that happened way back then"?
    Because even to this day since then man has continued to fall. He has continued to sin over and over again. What we see in this world all the pain, all the suffering, all the ugliness, all the hate and violence, arrogance and pride are all the exact things God wants to free us from. That is our reward for serving Him, believing in Him and trusting in Him regardless of all that we see or might experience or feel here on this earth.
    
    Is it sad for all when a child suffers as they are innocent? yes it is. Would you stop that suffering if you could? Yes of course you would. Does God? Yes sometimes he stops the suffering by taking them home to be with Him, sometimes he stops it by healing them, sometimes he stops it by having put medicinal plants etc which man then uses to facilitate that healing. Either way, any way you look at it then, He does stop the suffering, ends the pain.
    And if the parent of that child believes that one day they will be reunited with that child there is healing there too, in that suffering/grief.
    And why is it that God allows the cancer, aids, or any other to strike? Because those things which ail us are brought on naturally in this world that is sick in of itself. God allows for us to see all the pain, ugliness, hurt, violence, hate, and so on, so that in seeing that reality we might come to the realization that it was of our own doing. And being so full of hate for sin, as a result of that knowledge, as He is, we might turn away from it and believe in Him, cling to Him, love Him even more for providing a way out of all that and into perfection with Him.

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