Winning the Lost Without The Using the Word

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   Precious Pearlposted 13 years ago

   Hello All,
   
   I am issuing a challenge to all those who believe in Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit to share with me how they would win the heart of a person who doesn't believe without using the Bible or scriptures as a point of reference. I believe that this is possible ... do you?  Can you?  Write to me as if I didn't already believe.  Share with me your heart.  Let's begin right now ...

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      darksideposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      On one hand it appears that you're saying is to be subversive.
      
      But on the other, I think you're saying that people don't need to bible bash or cram religion down other peoples throats. And a person letting their actions (and character and attitude) speak louder than words.

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         Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I am not trying to be subversive that would be very difficult here.  I was asking the question because I have been pondering the answer and wanted to know what others might share.  Actions and being real do speak louder than words.

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            Rochelle Frankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I wrote a hub about "How to be a good father" that has Christian implications, but I don't think it is preachy-- just a real story.

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               Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

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      Rochelle Frankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think its OK to share your beliefs (of any kind)in words that express your own experience and understanding.
      Jesus, Himself, used the words of his day and the experiences that people would understand.  Quoting the scriptures today-- especially in archaic translations-- turns people off.

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         Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You are right.  I have read many forums here where the scriptures are bounced back and forth ineffectively.  That is why I asked the question.

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      Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes. Actions always speak louder than words.

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         Daniel Carterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         BTW, preciouspearl, I believe you are always into good things. My disagreement with you is about examining, not about accosting. So if I appeared offensive to you, I hope you can forgive.

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            Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            We can agree to disagree and still show respect for each other.  Yes, of course, I forgive you.  And thank you. I appreciate your apology.  And forgive me as well if I somehow offended you.

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      Lady_Eposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I might be abit controversial here.
      
      I'm a Christian but do not feel comfortable with sharing e.g asking people to become christians.  Even in church, if an announcement is made for people to turn up and start knocking on people's doors - I'll be know where to be found. (done it on a few occassions and people were hostile).
      
      Having said all this, I have a very close friend, Halima a Muslim. Now, hand on heart after a few years of knowing her, she decided on her own to become a Christian because of me. I never ever sat her down to ask her to be a Christian because I respected her beliefs as a Muslim. Even when speaking to her I would say "Insha allah" which means "by God's Grace" in Muslim Prayer.
      
      On a note to make you smile - she had a lovely baby girl last May and named the baby after me. Baby Elena.  My Name's Elena.
      
      PS. I didn't befriend her with the objective of making her a Christian. I was just being me.

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      rednckwmnposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      actions speak louder then words

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   Tech Stud(ly)posted 13 years ago

   I know this may sound really short and not well thought through, but no. It is not possible to win someone on your own because on our own, we have nothing. I think Christians tend to get to caught on themselves and lose the simple message of the cross. God sent his Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to go to hell. If that is all I say, what am I basing it on? Personal opinion? If all you are using is emotions or logic to plead His case, I don't think you will get very far. Remember, it is not what we have done, but what He has done for us, and what He can do through us if we are willing to follow.

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      Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You are right about this, we tend to be arrogant not much different from the Pharisees.  Our presentation of our faith is very important and being arrogant (which I admit I am not exempt from being at times)drives people away not toward the message of the cross.  Thank you for sharing.

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   ryankettposted 13 years ago

   Would you like it if I came on here and "issued a challenge" for all athiests to tell me how they would undermine somebodies faith and drive them to athiesm? I don't consider that to be a very nice thing to do, and I would never do it. I am an athiest, go figure.

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      Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Go ahead Ryan, just do it, as Nike says

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      Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      How does asking other believers to share with me (a believer) their faith in anyway undermine your faith?  I don't get that one at all.  Why does it bother you?

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         sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It's offensive because it implies that atheist or other beliefs in god that are not Christ based are somehow lost and you are looking (so it seems) for a better way to bring people to your faith. As thought to say that my own personal belief is not right or good.
         
         I am sure you didn't mean anything by the post to be negative, it's just the way it comes off.

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            Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you.  I appreciate your explaining it to me.  I didn't intend for it to be offensive or negative.   I was looking for an answer to my own question ... no other motivation.  I do see why others may not be able to believe or understand my desire to know.

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   lrohnerposted 13 years ago

   Precious, I agree with Ryan. It's not very nice, but I do understand that you have the best intentions and I admire you for that. But to me, folks who try to "convert" me to their religious beliefs without me indicating that I am receptive are totally annoying, kinda like spam or junk mail or sales calls. Just simply annoying. And the fact that they do it at all gets under my skin.

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      Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, this isn't about converting anyone (probably hard to believe) but since we seem to get into a lot of debate over the Bible ... I was curious to see if anyone could share without using the Word as a point of reference.  A challenge ... I don't believe in forcing anyone to my point of view because my belief is that God draws you and if you want to know you seek Him.  It's very simple but quite complex at the same time.  You will note that I don't engage in a lot of debate about the Bible.  I speak my heart and what I believe ... at that point it is out of my hands.

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         lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         And asking your fellow believers to figure out how to "win the hearts" of non-believers isn't about converting them? You had a fan for trying. You've now lost a fan.

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            Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            No, it's about knowing whether or not we believe enough about who we are that we can share without getting into a debate about the Bible.  If someone comes to Him out of this, that would be a miracle ... and I would rejoice.  This hub is motivated out of a desire to know how you would reach someone without using the Word.  Can you answer that for me?  If not, that is fine ...

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               lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Precious, You started this whole post about the Bible. I'm not stupid, you know. So please don't treat me that way.

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         mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         They will first need to come in contact with  god themselves.Then god will speak through them  with different words from the Bible but with the same truth.

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            Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            True ... He reveals Himself and draws all men.

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               sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Except for the ones he intentionally forgot right?

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            sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Hi Mo, haven't heard from you for a while (well I haven't been on the forums much lately) how have you been.  Good I hope.

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   wordscribe41posted 13 years ago

   And calling us "The Lost" isn't very helpful either.  In fact, it's offensive.

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      Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No offense intended.  So, please accept my apology.

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   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   I speak my mind too. This hub is offensive, the title says it all.

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   Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

   Well consider this:
   You are a Precious Pearl
   I am a Pearldiver
   
   You Believe you are precious becoz your oyster has nothing growing on it.
   From experience; I know to avoid those types of oysters; becoz real oysters will always unquestioningly give shelter to other marine life, irrespective of everything.
   
   For a 'precious pearl' you have alot to learn about co-existing with other forms that are vastly different than yourself.
   
   In that respect; I would say that you are lost; if your purpose in life is to shine (preciously).
   
   Perhaps you may consider developing a far deeper wisdom than you are currently pimping your oyster with?

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   BJCposted 13 years ago

   Actions speak louder than words and sometimes it is better not to say too much.  My personality is very friendly and outgoing, yet very discerning.  The Lord expects us to be doers of the Word and when we are doing what we're supposed to be doing, being kind, not rude, no swearing, no talking behind someone's back etc., people do notice.  But more importantly, when we spend time in fellowship with the Lord and allow Him to work through us we are more sensitive to the needs of others around us, and this is what people noitce.  Too frequently, believers demonstrate an arrogance and behave like everyone else.

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      Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well said, BJC.  I agree.

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   Precious Pearlposted 13 years ago

   Again, this was not intended to be offensive but since it seems to have offended quite a few, please accept my apology.  It was not meant to do that ... but I can't change the title so let's move on shall we?  Oh, and insulting my name does nothing accept show a level of immaturity that I would hope that we as adults would be long past but if not ... have at it.  For the record, I won't be responding to anyone accept those who are honestly trying to answer the challenge from here on out ... so don't waste writing skills or time unless of course you want to continue to answer each other off topic.  Feel free ...Have fun.

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      Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Oh Please..... What did the scriptures say about "Casting Pearls?".........
      Clearly, my earlier post was Too Direct for your maturity?
      Drop your precious arrogance and you may find that there are many here that could help you understand the things that you do obviously not understand.
      Having an internet hissyfit, becoz you don't know how to act in the company of wiser people; merely emphasises that your oyster is flawed... and there's a pretty good chance that your pearl is equally substandard too!
      Have you considered that point?

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         Eric Graudinsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         A pearl of a post. Two pearls fact.
         But no responses.
         
         Oh well, that's what happens when one casts pearls before swine.
         
         (With, of course, the obligatory disclaimer that "no offence is intended to anyone by this post", so that means I can write anything I like, and nobody should take it personally, or be offended by it)
         
         I'm very sorry.
         I've been a naught boy.
         the therapy is obviously not working.
         I'll start again:
         
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         "I must not enter the religious forums".
         
         There, I feel better now.

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            Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ROFLMAO

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    BJCposted 13 years ago

    Precious Pearl is a beautiful name and i thank you for trying to ease some of the tensions that we've read here on this forum.  Your intent is pure in heart.

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you, BJC.  I appreciate your encouraging words.  At times, words can be misunderstood especially in this type of forum.  It really wasn't my intention to offend but to learn and encourage others to share in a uniquely, different way their reasons for believing.  Interesting how people have responded.  You sure need to have a tough skin around here. :-)

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          earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Yes you do need a tough skin around here. It is not easy watching people post derogative threads calling people "the lost" simply because they arrived at different conclusions to you.

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       tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Calling us, unbelievers 'lost', is not going to ease the tension. Don't you think ?

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    Precious Pearlposted 13 years ago

    One thing that I must share.  I don't call myself Precious Pearl because I think highly of myself.  I call myself Precious Pearl because of where I have been and what I have come out of because of my Jesus.  A pearl comes out of a very nasty environment which has been mentioned by one of my critics and pearls are often flawed.  They go through a process of being buffed and shined to reveal a hidden beauty that may not always be recognized by others.  I am not perfect but I am continually being buffed and shined.  It isn't a very pleasant process but I hope that when the process is complete I will be of some value and perhaps His beauty will shine through me.  So, yes I may do or even say things or in this case write things that because I am human may offend you but keep in mind that I am still in the refining process ... as are you or perhaps you are perfect?  If so, good for you.

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       tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       But I'm sure you think highly of yourself, calling other people 'lost'! Such arrogance !!

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    No need to be perfect to avoid writing an insulting thread. Just need to be a reasonable person.

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       tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

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    tantrumposted 13 years ago

    I think that being called 'lost' is offensive. I don't consider myself 'lost' at all. On the contrary, I think you are completely lost !

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    I do not intend to be negative in any way toward anyone.
    We need some help over here discussing religion.  When I read the title of this thread it didn't seem to be pointing fingers at Atheist. Atheist are not lost. They know exactly where they are and where they want to be. The LOST In my opinion refers to those in confusion. Don't know where they are or where they want to be. Precious Pearl didn't say anything wrong.

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks for understanding ... who knew that such a tiny word could be such a bone of contention.  Again, it wasn't intended to offend ... I was really seeking an answer.

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I do understand where they are coming from though. there have been too many hollier than thou posting in here attacking atheist and they have become too thin skinned.  We need a politically correct dictionary that we and they should keep

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    Valerie Fposted 13 years ago

    St. Francis of Assisi put it the most humorously. "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary."
    
    It's tough however to let our actions speak louder than the teachings we try to follow, as we are also sinners. There are too many who will hold our individual failings against not just us, but all believers and against Christianity as a whole. So I still think the Gospel (or preferably a plain English explanation of real Christian teaching) is a more reliable way of showing what Christianity really teaches.

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       tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       God forbid !!   Why should I want to listen to that preaching ??

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I agree that the Word is the source of our faith.  Will our testimony of faith do the same thing?

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Not reading it or quoting, but referencing Proverbs worked a little bit with my kids when they were young.

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             Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I see your point ... the Word as a reference rather than quoting it directly.

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    No other source than the bible. Take away the crazy fairy tale and religionists have nothing, which is why you have had no answers that do not include scripture or references to scripture.

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       Valerie Fposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       That's not entirely true. "Religionists" still have the universe around them and a curiosity regarding not just the how, but the why everything exists. They still have a conscience and a curiosity as to the source of that conscience. What's right and wrong, why, who has the authority to make the rules, and again why?
       
       As long as people have these questions, there will always be religion. Either people will make something up to explain it, or they'll stumble upon the truth.
       
       As a Christian, I personally find the Bible has saved me a bit of stumbling, but that being said, there is a lot of religious and moral philosophy I have found compelling and even convincing that makes no mention of religious scriptures.

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    Strophiosposted 13 years ago

    I really wish that those here insulting and unnecessarily attacking the OP would stop, you're being ridiculous and are exhibiting the worst consequence of internet discussion.
    
    All that the OP asks for is that other believers come into this thread to discuss the problem of attempting to evangelize without the use of scripture. Evangelism is an important part of Christianity and is, in one respect, one of its most endearing traits: the message to spread the gospel is given so that all might hear it and be saved. I remind you that all she asked for was a discussion on a topic. This was not an active attempt at evangelism, nor was it a call for evangelism even, she simply asked for an intellectual discussion. What she receives in return is a host of attacks and insults as if she had done something morally outrageous. A call for intellectual discussion is rarely, if ever, such a thing.
    
    As for the issue of using the term "Lost" to describe nonbelievers, I can see the argument that it is offensive; however, I don't believe it is here. Now, if she had in conversation with you called you Lost, then perhaps it would be an insult; however, used in conversation with other believers, it is simply the vernacular in which they speak, you need take no notice of it. I'm willing to bet there are atheists here who have spoken of "religious fools" or used "religious" with derision.
    
    A final point: although I'm certainly in favor of mutual respect between viewpoints, this demand that she not so much as imply that others might be wrong is absurd. Christianity and other religions, at least as she seems to believe in it, are incompatible, for her to pretend otherwise would be disingenuous at best. The same, naturally, goes for the atheists here. Respect for others' viewpoints does not mean believing in yours any less, nor believing theirs anymore, it simply means respect. It seems many of the posters here need to learn to respectfully disagree.
    
    For instance, I am an atheist. I think the OP is dead wrong as far as her religion is concerned. I don't think she should be converting people, I don't think her god exists, and I certainly don't think I, or anyone else, needs to be saved from hell. This does not mean, however, that her profession of these ideals is somehow innately offensive to me. In fact, I perfectly understand her wish to convert people and, moreover, I understand why she should refer to nonbelievers as "Lost," it's simply equivalent to me saying that she's wrong (she happens to have a moral imperative behind her word whilst mine is only rationally based, but that doesn't really matter). All those here who can't stand to be told that they are wrong should probably stay away from the internet.
    
    Oh, and on the original topic: I don't think conversion would be possible without at least referencing scripture. The most compelling arguments I've heard are all related to Jesus' radical political/economic/moral message. But, given that I already don't believe in God, I'm probably a strange case anyways.

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       Rochelle Frankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I really appreciate your POV. Your thoughtful response is very apt and deserves at least one reply. I hope others will consider it. It made me go read some of your hubs, which I also like.

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          earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I agree that religion will need to reference scripture.

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             Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             It looks as though you may be right ... the question has yet to be fully answered.  Interesting.

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I like you,Strophios.  You speak your heart without being insulting to others.  I appreciate the fact that you took the time to sift through and see the truth ... I am seeking an answer.  Perhaps you are right ... it is impossible to share my belief in Jesus without the Word.  I am pondering that one. We can be wrong or right but we should be one or the other while showing respect for others.

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       earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       OK, that is a generous view, but if the op's intention was as you say the thread would have been been named differently, and her introduction to it worded differently.

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    White Teethposted 13 years ago

    man...I thought this was going to be a game thread...the title was kind of intriguing...not so much after reading the posts...

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    sandra rinckposted 13 years ago

    Hi PP (precious pearl) here is the same question for you. 
    
    What could I do without using the "word" to win over the lost?  I am an atheist.  I have read the Bible, I have taken a lot of good things from t and notably found a lot more that was bad about it.
    
    In my eyes, those who follow this without consideration for life (all life) are the devil (though I don't believe in a literal physical representation of it or god) I know that when I say, "your god is the devil" I upset the whole batch of Christians and even folks who aren't Christians.
    
    Why do you think this is? 
    
    I ask because it's the answer to your own question.

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       earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       No god, no sin, no devil!

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          sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          But there is life, it is undeniable and for me, undeniably precious and worth all the love I can give.

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I imagine that it would upset some because they would think that you were being deliberately insulting but they could be wrong.  You see I can't judge you because of what you don't believe ... I would question you.  That said, if you shared with me your testimony of taking the good portions of the Bible and implementing them into your life although you are not a believer, that would be enough for me to wonder and perhaps seek to know more.  Did this answer your queston?

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          sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          To be fair you shouldn't judge me on what I actually do believer either.  You see how this works? 
          
          My testimony about the Bible and God and life goes far beyond what I am willing to share anymore because at one point I was a believer hands down, no questions asked.  Then I saw something, I heard something and I sought whole heatedly to "seek" and what I found was not at all like the majority of the Christians and Muslims say, not in anyway close to theirs or your interpretations...
          
          What I did was learn a different lesson that I tried to share with other Christians and the lesson went unnoticed because it was not what you want to hear. 
          
          So we sit on opposite sides of the gate.  I, believing that "all things are possible in yourself and my confidence and life changing experience did come from the Bible but it was no where close to the same lessons that most Christians say is the TRUTH.  In fact, I live a better life fully accepting myself, not depending on a god to do things for me; I find my own personal confidence out of realizing that the world is made up of a lot of things that have no authority over me and it helps me grow. 
          
          I do not feel "trapped" in life.  I do not feel like I am obligated to anything.  I know when I look up to the sky (the heavens, space, the stars) that what we do down here can only go two ways.
          
          1. You can believe that "we" are the only ones like us in the whole Universe and regard each life as precious and perfect and do the very best to make our lives the best they can be by removing judgments and things of that nature.  And spending your life in a more balanced state insisting that there is good in all life if you just open your eyes to see it though my eyes.  Indeed, I feel like I want to cry when I think about what beautiful things life really does possess.
          
          2. You can believe that there is more and all things will be forgiven and all you have to do is repent and continue to make judgments which always make others feel bad and bring about bad joo, joo.  You can believe that there is a heaven and hell and disregard this life as the greatest gift you will ever receive while waiting to find out if you made it to heaven or hell. 
          
          The lesson I learned from the Bible and from my personal experience is that everything, everything you are made of is with you right here and right now.  There isn't a tomorrow until today has come and the past should be forgotten because the past can never return. 
          
          So live life for today or as Jesus said, "Don't worry about tomorrow because tomorrow has worries of its own."  In other words, forget about Heaven and forget about Hell because today and everyday is your own personal heaven and hell.  Your lot, if you will, your gift, your entitlement, your precious pearl.  A gift meant to be shared, renewed... or in other words, refined and received. 
          
          So with all that I do believe, why would anyone say to me that I am not good?  Why would anyone say to me that I am lost?  Why would anyone say to me, "you have been deceived by Satan?"

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             Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             *bowing to your wisdom*

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             tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Nobody could have said better what I think of life. ! I will only add, that my life is a happy one, without regrets nor sense of 'guilt'. Thank you Sandra !!!!!

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    sneakorocksolidposted 13 years ago

    I have a few suggestions that might work:
    
    For women:
    1.Hell is having to clean mens restrooms for eternity.
    2.Hell is being locked in a box and having to listen to your kid say 'I know' for eternity.
    3.Hell is having your mother-in-law teach you 'how to' for enternity.
    4.Hell is having to sit behind a desk and listen to a moron call you 'sweetheart' for enternity.
    5.Hell is having the same moron cut you off in trafic and give you the finger over and over and over again! 
    If none of these work go ahead and double-up!
    
    For Men:
    1. Heaven is you own the remote, the TV, and the chair. Snack-time and your lovely silent partner brings you your favorite snack, with a smile. When you have had all the TV you can stand you smile at your silent partner and she says,"It would be my pleasure!"
    If that doesn't get them to church theres no hope.

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    Earnist No kidding and with all respect. You seem to know my bible better than most christians on here. What do you think about what Daniel 9:23  the commandment came forth  9:25 from the going forth 9:26 62 weeks and they goina kill him.  If I say I believe the bible is inspired word of God, should I have to interpret it.  No joke, no trick, no s--t do you think that we should have to interpret "THA  WORD OF GOD" ?

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    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

    I can't win lost souls to the Lord, because I do NOT have that power.  Only the Father can draw people to Jesus Christ; sure, He might use His children to accomplish His will; but any Christian who insists on trying to win souls to God (even the souls that don't want to be saved) are horribly mislead.
    
    All I can do is live as Christ like as possible, and if for some reason that inspires someone then fantastic.

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       tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         the first sensible words I hear from a believer in this thread !

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       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       well said. God can do all things. He only asks us to do things for him for our own good. Some things we gotta learn for our selves. those lessons that were learned the hard way seen to stick the longest.

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Well said.  Live it don't just say it works wonders.  We often fail at this as Christians.

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          steffsingsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I must agree with the above post NO ONE (Absolutely) NO ONE can come unless called. All else is simply following Jesus' final instructions to reach out to those who He called out. wonderful post.

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       Rochelle Frankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Amen

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23. 61

    Valerie Fposted 13 years ago

    Strophios, if you compose fantastic orchestral music, you'd be right up there with Hector Berlioz on my list of favorite atheists.
    
    Earnest, you're not so bad either- though I find your persistent reference to God as a "sky fairy" more than a little deliberately insulting. Most believers in God are smart and mature enough to not believe in fairies and don't believe God can be confined to the sky, and I think you know that.
    
    Even when I was an agnostic, I only found referring to non-believers as "lost" insulting only if it was delivered without acknowledging the Christian belief that the only reason some people might not be "lost" is not because they're better, but because they are repentant. Even without the humble acknowledgment that nobody's inherently superior to anyone, I still found being called "lost" far preferable to being called "Hell-bound," "idolater," "responsible for the decline of Western Civilization," et cetera,. Incidentally, I was called all that a lot more after I returned to the Catholic Church, so it's not as if I don't know how it feels to be insulted by people claiming to be Christian. By and large, I never considered "lost" an insult- particularly since I was familiar with the parables of the lost coin, the lost sheep, and the prodigal son. I always knew that Christianity taught that God loves the lost and Christians should no less. So I never saw much malice in that word.
    
    Now if atheism had an equally long and strong tradition of love for those branded irrational and acknowledgment that, but for enlightenment or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever, we'd all be equally irrational, I would bristle a lot less about being called that.
    
    All that being said, with me being "irrational," you being "lost," and all of us on our way to Hell if those who are so certain we aren't or won't be on speaking terms with the divine are correct, I figure there's no reason we can't at least get along.
    
    Who likes pizza?

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       Strophiosposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you very much for the compliment. By amusing coincidence, I do happen to compose (though I'd make no claim to being "fantastic" and would certainly never claim to hold a candle to Berlioz). As for the rest, I'm not sure you said a thing there with which I disagree. And I certainly do like pizza.
       
       On a related note, I'd like to give a general thanks to all those who read my (perhaps overly long) previous comment. Special thanks to the positive responses from Rochelle and Precious Pearl. (And more generally that none of the vitriol of which I was complaining was turned on me).

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I love your sense of humor! :-)

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    Jerami, the "word of god" can be excluded, included or made a part of almost any belief by quoting, interpreting or connecting and disconecting with other pieces of scripture, or by interpreting connecting or disconnecting the OT and NT.
    Yet interpretation does not lead anywhere conclusive as evidenced by the sheer number of religions based on it.
    I completed many years reading the bible as a Christian, and also a two year intensive bible study in 3 languages, I have seen the dead scrolls and even had them read to me by the then head of an Institute of Archeology who was a fellow member of the chreistian businessman's committee ( a world wide Christian group) and ..... I know nothing!

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       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       
       I appreciate your answer.  I have no credentials. Haven't studied with anyone with them. I have been studying though and have been trying to shed interpretations , like my grand father referred to shaking all the limbs off it to see what the limb looks like. I don't that if I am going to say that I believe anything. If I believe it shouldn't I believe it with out changing it. If I gotta change the meaning did I really believe it?
       I like pizza I'm goin to CC's wanna join me over there? Valerie

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    My Friend Shiylohposted 13 years ago

    I have found that people who need forgiveness, mercy, compassion and understanding will be drawn by a deep, unrelenting and fiercely loyal love that they cannot comprehend.

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       Precious Pearlposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Amen!

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    mcbeanposted 13 years ago

    I like this forum.
    
    Religion as a novelty sport.
    
    Is this like swimming without using your arms?
    How do you score points?
    Are you allowed to threaten - "Convert or I will accidentally drop this bowling ball on your head"?
    Is there half time?
    When is it?
    Have you applied for Olympic consideration?
    Do you need protective equipment?
    A conversion is a win but how do you lose?
    Is there a time limit?
    Are you planning an international competition?
    How do you think you will go in North Korea?
    Do you get bonus points for converting difficult nationalities?
    
    So many questions.....
    Please deal me in when you have it all sorted. Sounds like such fun!

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    OK mcbean, it is safe to enter the water.
    
    Is this like swimming without using your arms?
    Very similar!
    How do you score points?
    muslims are only worth 1 point as their arguments have been too silly
    christians score 2 1/2 the extra hals for splitting the bible in replies.
    Are you allowed to threaten - "Convert or I will accidentally drop this bowling ball on your head"?
    Absolutely!
    Is there half time?
    Yes
    When is it?
    everytime a religionist is asked a question that is to be avoided.
    Have you applied for Olympic consideration?
    Not yet.
    Do you need protective equipment?
    It is recommended to wear a face mask.
    A conversion is a win but how do you lose?
    by saying "It is true, I read it in the bible or Quoran.
    Is there a time limit?
    Not that I have seen.
    Are you planning an international competition?
    Woddayamean???? This is an International competition!
    How do you think you will go in North Korea?
    Not sure, but I could hazzard a guess.
    Do you get bonus points for converting difficult nationalities?
    Saudi countries score double for christians.
    I hope that clears it up.

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    On the contrary, the only source of your god is what you read in one book. take that away and no religion based on it can say a word. No proof, blind faith in a book written by women hating men to control people.

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    mohitmisraposted 13 years ago

    Revelation or enlightenment , beyond the concept of scientific proof.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Mohit - you do know that this one thinks that you are burning in hell and the only way to god is through Jesus. Right? Her god seems a little different to yours, because hers punishes people like you. 

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          mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I have told you they are wrong and no one can take god away from you.You are the master and you dont need anyone.
          
          "The kingdom of god is within" They have yet to understand the words of Jesus.

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    aka-djposted 13 years ago

    Hey preciouspearl.
    There is a scripture somewhere about casting pearls before swine. I think you might be finding out the real meaning of those words.
    Just a thought.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       That is not condescending at all. Like I keep telling you guys - behave in a way that garners respect and you will get respect.

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          aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That's like chasing the wind with you and many others.
          It's also called, moving the goalpost. You cannot be pleased!
          Not that I care to please.

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       tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         So what are you doing among the swine ?  ........
       You don't look like a 'pearldiver'!

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          aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I love the smell!

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             tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Wow !! A masochist believer

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                aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Reminds me of my past.
                Sorry, dude, but I gotta sleep It's 1am here! L8er.

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    atomswifeyposted 13 years ago

    But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the God of this age has blinded, who do not believe lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ should shine on them.
    (2 Corinithians 3,4)

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32. 0

    \Brenda Scullyposted 13 years ago

    as a pearl diver, how would you recognise a pearl like person worth listening to....

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    I believe that is a strong case and well put Sandra.

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       Valerie Fposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I must respectfully disagree. A lot of what was said sounds to me like pride- and not the good kind either, but closer to the self-worship kind. The world has a lot of things that don't have authority over you- but it also has a lot over which you have absolutely no authority.
       
       Sandra, I think you assume a lot of Christianity that isn't in the Bible. If Christianity had so little regard for this life, Christian denominations would not make up the largest groups opposing elective abortion, overuse of the death penalty, unjust war, or the increasing tendency to judge the poor, elderly, disabled, and sick as burdens whose greatest right is to die.

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