There are a lot of topics where God's will, divine plan and love are sited as reasons ranging from science to history to natural disasters and man made wars.
So inevitably one has to wonder what this "Godly" motive really is, what is his agenda, if any?
Yes, I know there will be countless bible citations, its normal, we all have our copy from some hotel, no need to copy it in here in its entirety.
OK, so if God knows everything, and has a plan, then it must have been part of his plan all along to damn his creation. Why would he do that?
Wouldn't the angels know more about God being almighty than we do, since they know his presence and have seen his power?
If so, how could Lucifer have thought that he could topple god, and why did so many follow him?
Why would god from the beginning decide that his boy JC would have to take the rap for mankind? Why bother?
There is a divine plan and we as humans are responsible for carrying it out.
Everything is in perfection but as humans we are not able to comprehend billions of years of planning.
Its not damning his creation we are god and we are playing this game with ourselves.
Yes I believe there are entities who have a better understanding than us.
JC is not the only one , there have been many masters who worked for god and took the rap so to say.
Thanks for your input, what do you think that plan is though? I understand that we probably can't know, but surely you have an idea or suspicion of what that plan may be?
You are welcome
What I know of is that we all come from the Light or god and this entire game or divine plan is to go back to god the source.Those like me who have gained enlightenment must spread the message of the light and hope to inspire others to find god or the Light within themselves.
There were many masters, but only One died for even all of them. Vladimir
Just because someone says ..in the name of God, doesnt make it God's motive.
I knew a guy at work, who had a HUGE crush on me. One night, he hurt his wrist, and went to the ER, The next day, at work, he was upset with me that I had not gone to see him. I said..oh, well, sorry, I didnt know..If I had known, I woudl ahve come to see you..
he belived he knew my motive for saying this
On Valentine's day, he drank an entire bottle fo Skyy Vodka, and called 911. He then called me, at work,and talked and puked untill the ambulance got there. SO I would know, and go vist him at the hospital, he kept saying.."I knew this is what you wanted me to do"...
so anyway, religion is not God.
Your work mate is psychologically quite ill. He should not be seeing you in this victim role.
This was a while ago, yes, he has/had some serious problems. I truly did care about him, but he needed more help than I knew how to give. He was sent to a home for troubled teens, after that. When he got out he stalked me for some time, but his older brother had ...legal custody, I think is the right term and last I knew they had moved far far away. My point is, people do crazy things in the name of ideas they are in love with. I personaly am not sure one way or the other about God, but I do know, the people who do crazy things..like war..in the name of God, if he's real, you can't blame him.
perceptions of God are human...God is not human.
1. Lucifer did it by deception.
How many people are deceived today? Everything is clear still they are deceived.
2. a). God's plan for the man demands fulfilling the promises. b) Love.
ad a) It was the mystery, why and still is for many.
Because people can be so ignorant and stupid and forget there senses when it comes to the promise of everlasting peace. It tells me a lot about humanity. Oppression being one of them.
You're asking too many questions Lee. You just need to have a little faith.
Hmm, Dave, I suppose you're right, but that faith would be so much easier to have if one did a little background check-- }:->
i don't think an ant would know what humanity's motives are
I don't believe any human being has ever known or will ever know what God's motives are, or in fact, know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is God at all.
Having said that, my version of what a Creator's motives might be is to assume there's a good chance the aim is to favor anything that has a positive impact on life, living, or the Earth, in terms of "forwarding" "all of life"; and be against anything that harms life, living, or the Earth (or Universe, if causing harm in the Universe is possible for someone).
I tend to think that "all of life" (complete with things like germs and natural disasters) is the "main creation", and that living creatures for within that main creation. I think there's one very simple formula at the root of all life, and that is the thing that makes any "movement" of anything in life (whether that's cell growth or atmospheric changes). I think as part of that big picture, though, not all of the processes in place as great for human life - and that's where I think people's faith helps them get through dealing with those times when some scientific phenomenon has caused heartache in their individual lives.
Whether there's a God (or just a force or nothing); how much He involves Himself in the smaller pictures of individual's lives, whether part of the "main plan" is simply that brains find peace through a scientific process that occurs when prayer happens, or any number of other things are all things I don't think anyone can really know for sure. The faithful accept their religion's belief on faith.
It is said that many people who are "highly intelligent" also have a sense of a higher calling or a sense of spirituality; so I'd think, if you consider the "advancing" of refinement of intellect that has taken place since the beginning of time, it might make sense that moving humans (if only because, so far, they have the most developed intellects) toward spirituality could be an underlying aim. I can see how moving toward longer physical lifespans could be an aim, if the idea is that humans do "God's work" in furthering/improving life; but I can also see how building in death would allow a well developed spirit/soul eventually "become one" with whoever/whatever may have designed the whole plan. (Just some light pondering at 7:00 on this Friday morning. )
Thanks Lisa, refreshing answer to the question. I suppose if there is really a plan it could probably be along the lines that you describe. Thanks for getting up early & taking the time
My end of the globe its 13:30, so hopefully can start my weekend soon.
Lee, I was up anyway and looking for non-work kind of things to think about while have my three cups of coffee. There's no way I'll even think about doing any real work until at least 8:00, more like 9:00.
Lisa, my kind of people! not too hectic in the morning and an admirable caffeine consumption
The timezone issue had me thinking about another creationist claim.. if the world was made in 6 days, where would those days have started, Greenwich Mean Time?
Possibility 1: Santa's helpers
Possibility 2: Not that I'm a big Bible reader (in fact, not that I've ever done more than browse a children's Bible or hear a bunch of gospel readings at Catholic Masses); but I've heard that it is said "a day" in the Bible can mean anything, and doesn't necessarily mean the 24-hour day we have established.
Possibility 3: The basic, undeveloped, beginning of life on Earth could have gotten started in a fairly short period.
Possibility 4: Everything they say about Adam and Eve is true (and they're not just symbolic figures representing male and female forces, the way I tend to suspect they are - if they're anything at all); only the world where that whole scenario took place was not the planet, Earth. The could explain why their physical development/characteristics would be the result of the things that make humans on Earth grow/exist. In fact, they may not have had physical form at all and may have been spiritual entitites; or else aliens - with something from their world ending up on Earth and manifesting its life in a form dictated by the conditions of Earth. (Not that I necessarily believe this seemingly far-fetched scenario; but if you think of it, back when the Bible was written people knew little about the concept of planet-Earth. "World" to them could have meant something completely different. (I'm trying to give the benefit of doubt to all views here. ). Then, of course, there's the one about how Adam and Eve could have been the first people on Earth but may have come here from another planet - maybe a six-day (or six-century) ride from wherever they came from.
(or, again, a Santa's helpers type of thing)
"OK, so if God knows everything, and has a plan, then it must have been part of his plan all along to damn his creation. Why would he do that?"
Because it's funny!
"If so, how could Lucifer have thought that he could topple god, and why did so many follow him?"
He invented religion and told them that they were special!
I've never bought the Lucifer thing whatsoever. To me, Lucifer is Disney's Cinderella's step-mother's mean cat. It just doesn't make sense for people to believe there's a Supreme Being and then say anyone or anything has ever had even the potential power to topple Him. That's why they call Him a "Supreme Being". I mean, there either is or isn't a Supreme Being. It sounds to me like people who wrote the Lucifer stories were thinking in terms of kings and queens.
I believe its more to do with the self than with another entity.
When we are good we are godly and when we are bad we are satanic or say Lucifer stole our soul etc.
All is the Light or god and ying yang or good and bad does exist.
See how primitive and limited are we? God dealt with Lucifer but only legal way.
"Why would god from the beginning decide that his boy JC would have to take the rap for mankind? Why bother?"
To free the spirit of mankind from death and sin....also...God wants to retire...turn the business of populating the universe over to his sons.
Lisa, not kings and queens but many gods. Not all religions are monotheistic. Even the ones that supposedly are merely demote other gods than the top one to supporting roles as demons and angels.
Conflict of interest is hard to model with only one participant who has all the power. It's too solipsistic.
rednckwmn, that guy sure expects people to visit him in the hospital for stupid reasons, doesn't he.... (Who expects visitors from work when they go to the emergency room?)
God's plan was that man and woman live in paradise and fill the earth. If Adam and Eve had obeyed God, we wouldn't be in this situation.
God didn't dam His creation otherwise what would be the use of making it in the first place?
The reason God sent JC is because a perfect man sinned and with it came the death penalty and imperfect. Therefore, only a perfect being without SIN could buy back what was established in the begining..to live in Paradise forever.
God made angels ..not robots..all of them have FREE WILL and like you, me and everyone else, haven't we at one time or another thought that we were smarter than our father and could do what we were told not to do and not be punished?
So did Lucifer..he thought himseld so powerful..that he thought that he could not only take over the Earth but God's throne! Of course we saw that he didn't and couldn't because God being the Creator and always been there..has power over all things and no one can even be in His presence and live unless you are Spirit.
Now..to use a earthly example..creator of the car..who knows better how the car came to be than the creator of the car himself..everyone else has to learn to be a mechanic..the creator knows the mechanics of the car without having to learn.
Same with God.
A doctor can study all his life and will never learn completely about how the body works..but God knows as He created the body..the doctor can't know all..there are many doctors who study in different fields..God doesn't..He knows everything about your body ..He is the Creator. He doesn't need to have to read a book of instructions.
Lee are you seriously asking these questions are are you just messing around....
Lee, there is no way for me to answer this question on God's behalf, but as to my plan for my life and purpose I am here to live my life as fully as possible. To know love and joy, to see happiness and avoid pain. I plan to accomplish all that I can before my time runs out and I go back to wherever I came from.
When I was a child I had no idea why my father did what he did. As I grow older in life I slowly understand his motives more and more, and how the things he told me and what I experienced were for my own growth and good. So the same with God I guess. The longer I live I start to see more possibilities and potential. So maybe God's plan is simply that I live and seek more always, and in doing draw closer to the truth.
Mankind has never been damned or condemned by God, only ourselves. God has never thrown up roadblocks to your salvation or to know him. The extent that you know God relies on the extent that you allow yourself to.Do not confuse the ramblings and rituals of religion for God.Jesus came to free us from all that nonsense and yet 2,000 years later we're heading right back to all that pomp and ceremony that does not honor God but ourselves. Just as the amount of peace you will have in your life will be determined by you. Here's the kicker, you can be a murdering killer and if you truly repent and seek God's forgiveness you will have it, not to say you will not have to pay for your crimes here on earth, but you will not be damned in heaven but welcomed as one of his lost children.Or you can rwefuse to acknowledge that what you did was wrong and refuse to repent in that case you condemned yourself. I knew the law when I broke it and I went to jail. The judge did not send me to jail, I sent myself there the moment I decided to follow my own law and rules.That's not my idealistic opinion but a reflection of Christ's own words in the New Testament.
This is not a complicated issue. The opposite of life is death therefore the best you can do is to live.If you fail to live you die. It's going to be a sad day when we die and get to heaven and ask God what was your plan for me, and he replies "That you live your life full and complete and follow your heart" all the while we sat around debating what he wanted us to do. Here's a novel idea, what if your heavenly father just like your father here just wants you to be happy and do what you want and live a life that you want. After all what's the point in creating life if you do not allow it to seek its total expression.
Lee you should read "The Science of Getting Rich" by Wallace D. Wattles for as much as it's a guide to building wealth it's also a guide to why you should and why God would want you to.
When God created the Angels and mankind He bestowed upon them the gift of FREE WILL. Therefore, Lucifer, and the one third of the Angels he dragged down to Earth, had the freedom to choose as they pleased. Just as us humans have the choice of being good or evil, saint or sinner. So, the decisions we all make are ours to be held accountable for.
Blame Satan for all that has befallen us; not God.
Good post though. It really made people think critically here in HubPages.
Satan? OK, so if Satan caused all the crap, why take it out on the rest of us? Sure, we have free will, or as much as any given church will give us anyway, but really.. can you honestly say that you believe what you say freely? Did GOD tell you that or did MAN tell you that? and if the answer is THE BIBLE told you, who do you suppose wrote it?
Thank you all for some very interesting posts.
I will get around to answering during the weekend sometime.
God created us to worship Him and gave us fee will to do so; if we are damned then surely it’s our own fault.
You are right in saying that we will never really know the full story – not while we live anyway, it would be like getting the answer booklet handed to you in an exam.
It would make more sense to believe that Satan was never an angel but another creation given free will to sin or worship.
It would make more sense to believe that JC was not the son of God or God himself but a messenger of God who never took the rap/got crucified. Just like all the other messengers who were sent to us.
Muslims also believe in God and Jesus – Maybe you will find
answers that are more satisfying in the Quran?
Not trying to radicalize you or anything! Just another opinion of course.
thanks, but one point you make is very dangerous, if we keep looking at religious doctrine for answers, eventually we will find one... just that the answer may be the wrong one for just about everyone else.
I wonder sometimes if JC was not the original atheist, thinking it may be better for people to believe in him than in all the psycho stuff that was around at the time.
As for getting the answers as a crib note for exams, also a valid point, why would he keep us, the Muslims, the Lutherans, the Catholics, the later day saints, the Jehovah's witnesses etc etc etc all guessing? all the same book after all... why the confusion if all the answers are in THERE?
I took it that your questions arose from reading the Bible and simply thought that you might not have come up with those questions if you had read the Quran instead.
I am quite sure that JC did want people to believe him and not the other psycho stuff!
Too many people, too many different opinions on what is right. The Bible and the Quran are not the same book just to point that out. I am sure that there was only one version of the truth that JC originally taught but WE(as in humankind) made it confusing by adding/subtracting from what he taught depending on personal opinion, don't forget that different sects of JC followers follow different versions of the Bible. In the end we will be shown how simple it really was and of how WE made it confusing for ourselves.
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