If this is indeed a forum for the free exchange of Religion and Beliefs, then atomswifey deserves a sincere apology from each "free thinker" and atheist who attacked her and her opinions.
Every godless individual who took offense and spoke out against her for expressing her beliefs needs to demonstrate humble contrition and tolerance in the name of our free exchange of ideas.
This stuff works both ways. Atheism has no moral code; the abuse that atomswifey has suffered is not justified by any level of free thinking or scientific inquiry.
To all the atheists out there:
I didn't say you had no morals. I said atheism has no morals. Atheism is simply an assertion that there is no supernatural power. It doesn't come with moral guidelines.
I'm sure atomswifey is not searching for apologies.
If atheism doesn't have moral codes then Christianity either. Why don't you stop with this foolish threads. It's so dramatic, in a humourous way !
No moral code?! COSETTE!!! Animated graphic please!
And Atomswifey and I are cool.
i was looking for my headbanging bunny but couldn't find it, so i posted the pigeoon fight
AW and I are good. We discussed this briefly. However, AW, if I have offended you in any way, I sincerely apologize.
"godless" sounds so harsh.
how about "delusion-free"?
1. I grew up protestant.
2. I became a "free thinker" as you put it to find out what I truly believe
3. AW gives ALL Christians a bad name to us "free thinkers" and atheists and totally makes me want to discredit Christianity, despite me knowing "good" Christians.
4. I have never insulted her or her opinions... only the way she represents them
5. Why are we starting ANOTHER apology thread, when the last one was discredited?
I don't know about you but I have morals. You don't need the Bible to tell you what is right or wrong. You don't have to be a Christian to believe in treating everyone the way you would like to be treated yourself.
the two most "moral" people (according to the Bible) I know are non-christians. One is Taoist and the other a "free thinker" like myself
I actually agree with 7 of the 10 commandments. I respect my mother and father (when they are worthy of respect), I do not kill (in fact, not even insects), I have not committed adultery yet (and generally disagree with it), I do not steal (unless a few sweets as a small kid counts), I havent given false evidence against anybody, and I try not to be jealous..... although being "envious of his house nor his wife" is a tricky one sometimes And I do not idolise or worship anybody.
The only ones that I refuse to comply with are:-
1. You shall have no other Gods but me.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
In fact, I do not comply with commandment 1 because of my compliance with commandment 2. I do not worship anybody, including god. I would happily misuse the name of 'the lord'. But only because I do not believe in his existance. For me saying "Uninvited Writer is slanderous!" (a false accusation!, and a breach of the commandments!) is much worse than saying "God is a tosser". One of them is real, just my personal belief of course. As for number 4, I dont even know when the Sabbath day is...... Is that Sunday? Because it is Sunday today right? Why is Atomswifey on here then? What does Atomswifey do today that is any different from yesterday or tomorrow?
Technically, in the OT times it was Saturday... but NT christians changed it to sunday cause that is when "Jesus came back to life", you make a valid point though, Ryan... I am not an atheist, but you make sense.
I once asked an atheist friend of mine why he bothered being moral. He responded by telling me that he still wanted to do "right by people" he respected his mom and did not want to hurt anyone by lying, cheating, stealing etc... I think this is more respectable than not wanting to "commit sin" because someone is afraid of going to hell.
You make my point. Your morals come from within, not without. Your morals do not come from being an atheist. You made them up from your personal experiences and (probably) the way you were raised.
I was never a self-proclaimed athiest until I was labelled an athiest by so many 'believers'. It is people like you that have classified me as an athiest, if presented with a list of religions for a survey or census.... I tend to leave it blank. I have no controlling moral code, I agree with that. But that does not in itself mean that I have no morals. Maybe what I consider to be morals differ from yours, but I certainly have not disagreed with your point. I would lean a lot more towards personal experiences than the way that I was raised, as that is in itself a series of personal experiences.
No one said you have no morals, save other atheists who (incorrectly) think that was my original point.
makes perfect and logical sense... and I was never a "free thinker" until this forum
well thats just to simple, unfortunitly.Where everyone has the right to live, once they have being gaven life. Then, everyone has a way of understanding the rules, O" what rules? i hear you ask? Well, the ones "we live by" and who are we? they might ask?!!! Weather anyone understands anyones else's ideas of what morals really are.One can not, gave an opinion without some sort of reply, otherwise, we would just nod our heads with that puzzled look, but dont alow ourselfs a thought.
Its ok, to think good thoughts! but there your thoughts. Try thinking good of people, and not expect anything in return.Kind regards Newman
She gets what she gives. I would rather spread my own shit on toast, like marmite, and eat it than apologise to her. I hope that clarifies. (Report this).
Should I press the button? I don't think so ! Enough drama
That's grade school logic. Hopefully you don't conduct your daily affairs in the same manner.
This is grade school 'discussion.' How much more soap opera is there going to be here on Hubpages?
My daily affairs? What like brushing my teeth, taking a bath, and posting on the hubpages forum? I dont spread shit on my toothbrush, and I dont shit in the bath, so probably not?
So ryan as you have tasted marmite itself, the extra protein should go down easy enough!
Hey, I've always (well since learning about the magic M) dreamed of doing a movie called "Marmalite Monster." It will be one of those A bomb test goes awry type deals. Figure to have a big blob of the stuff put humans on a sandwich and eat them.
I do not give into hate ryan. I am sorry that you seem to. I have never told anybody they are dying and going to hell or bashed them because of what their avvie looks like or treated anyone here with disrespect. I state my beliefs and try to engage in discussion.
You posted on the other thread that your wish is to have the religion forum taken off altogether and if that happens it happens.
I think to throw yourself into hate against me, and I think I have the right to say that after you told me to die and go to hell, then that is what it is.
I do not care if you apologize to me or not that is at your discretion and conscious to decide. I have not attacked you or anyone for that matter.
Do I deserve what you have said to me, no.
You do not know me to say such vile things against me. You very well may be a nice person and see me as a threat on here or have put me up as the christian poster child and thats fine. I like that poster. But your real problem is with the religion forum altogether and you have used me as a symbol of what you do not like about it. Again, thats fine.
God forgives you and so do I.
With or without that apology.
But if your real problem is that you feel the titles of the threads intimidate people then that is your cause not blaming someone you do not even know for all of it.
And this is all I have to say to you about it.
oOo, facepalm! perfect!
no one is threatened by you. you pick and poke but you do it just enough to avoid breaking Hubpage's rules and the person ends up being banned. honestly if i upset this many people i would hate myself.
I dont even read your replies anymore Atomswifey, I tend to talk about you rather than to you. So its all good that you have nothing further to say to me.... it would only get ignored. I would hate to take up your time, I know that you have dozens of pointless forum threads to start.
You can be a moral atheist, agnostic...whatever.
No, I don't apologize and any Catholic, Atheist, Protestant, etc., who disagreed with her or criticized something she said shouldn't to either. It would be boring if everyone agreed anyway.
Exactly, it is a forum of free exchange of Religion and Beliefs, so expect disagreement, ridicule and at times, low blows with no apologies.
No one, including atomswify, owes an apology for disagreeing or having differing perspectives.
I'll offer up the another it is a glorious day and while life really kinda sucks for me right now, blessed be to you all.
Go out, get out in the natural elements and step away from this continuous round robin of pointing fingers. Breath some fresh air and clear your heads.
Come back and here is the tough part, don't come here to the forum go to your account and write. Create and earn some money and be blessed in all that comes your way.
To all the atheists:
I didn't say you had no morals. I said atheism has no morals. Atheism is simply an assertion that there is no supernatural power. It doesn't come with moral guidelines.
Is this a joke ??!! if you say atheism has no morals, your saying atheists either. Give me a bresak !!!
Please cite an atheist moral code. I'd be happy to read it.
With all due respect, I think you've made some rather erroneous assumptions. Have you ever gotten in the "skin" of an atheist to really understand it? If not, you make assumptions rather than speak a truth. That being said, I think it's understandable to make such assumptions and even forgive them, if they are not continuously repeated.
Having said that, I think you've done a good thing by starting this thread. As to how people may respond could be an entirely different issue.
'Atheism is simply an assertion that there is no supernatural power.'
so that is a lack of morals ?? Come on !
Plenty of Atheist Bibles, not that I follow one having my own personal set of morals. Go to Barnes and Noble and check it out.
If there's an atheist bible, it's subjective.
Again, I didn't say that any atheist is immoral. I said the atheist philosophy of no supernatural power is, by definition, amoral because it does not go beyond the simple assertion that there's no god. It's not a moral framework of any kind.
If you have morals, and I don't doubt that all of you do, they don't come from your belief that there's no god. They some from somewhere else.
I understand, but at the same time a lot of people's beliefs and interpretations of the bible can be called subjective.
I'm just you and other Christians (or whatever you maybe ) have see somewhat different interpretations of different stories in the Bible.
Heck, there has been threads about interpretation...so that can be said to also be subjective.
I know you have the 10 Commandments, but as an atheist, I find it subjective myself.
The Bible can be subjective. Besides, objectivity can be so boring.
I would assume they come from how you were raised. Do you think it is such a foreign concept to treat others the way you would wish to be treated, to treat people with respect? Everyone loses their temper and says things they regret...even Christians.
I learned the Golden Rule, it was not promoted as a religious tenet when I was a child. I don't belong to any organization that says god does not exist, I just don't believe he does. I don't need others to tell me that.
The lady has the balls to speak her mind,
You may not like her views but I respect her, she's kind,
I have read some replies on here and gave a little grin,
Two faced hypocrites that don't realise they sin,
Death is the great divider, like the Grim Reaper it will come,
Then and only then shall we see how brave and bigmouthed are some.
Nicomp if you act respectfully you gain respect, if you lash out at others unfortunately you get a lashing in return. I am a Christian but I certainly do not discredit anyone who believes nor disbelieves I respect and admire everyone's opinions. I realize you are trying so hard to assist her with getting respect but respect is earned I admire you for trying but I can bet it isn't going to work. She has stirred her cauldron so only she can dig her way out.
I do not practice my beliefs with such things as cauldrons nor do I believe that I have in any way stirred this up.
I respect others.
But I do NOT expect to have "earn" someones respect that I do not know.
How could I?
Have I lashed out and said to anyone they are dying and going to hell? NO Or that I wished them to die and go to hell? NO! Not ever would I ever ever say something like to anyone! And do you think that saying something like that is deserving to anyone on here or anywhere else for that matter to see something like that posted and directed at them just because that someone has said things about God or scripture? Wow. that is really messed up don't ya think?
have I called anyone vicious names? NO I have not
Yet this was done to me on several ocassions and not even when I was discussion with them!
Like PirateGirl said, she actually read some of my posts and finds me to be a nice person and not vindictive as some in here seem to be. So I hardly think I have deserved this kind of disrespect. Yet I am just going to forgive and consider the source.
You have my full respect and very few on here have that !!
If you are not asking for peoples respect, then what makes you think that people are asking for your forgiveness?
Well that does it... I will just forgive you for all the nonsense you have written and consider the source so that I can not feel offended! AEvans is VERY respectable and you twisted her words out of context.
c'mon atomswifey... you really think people are mad for no reason, and you had no hand in it?
you are really good at IMPLYING
as in "i'm a good Christian and because of my faith i'm not only going to Heaven but i am better than you and morally superior to boot!"
you also ignore hubbers who express valid thoughts and questions, and are completely unapologetic for anything you say or do to someone else, in addition to being completely devoid of personal responsibiltiy.
that's my take on it anyway.
I did not say people were angry for no reason, I am sure they believe they have good reason to be angry with me.
What I have said is that I have not lashed out to deserve a lashing etc.
Why should I apologize for my beliefs? Why should I apologize for engaging and stating my beliefs?
Personal responsibility for what?
For debating people?
For expressing what I believe even though it differs from someone else's? I do not get what you are saying here.
People are in charge of their own reactions and responses cosette. Just as I am. If I can have countless debates with people who although they disagree with me are my friends, then why should it bother those who I do not debate with about things?
And how can I accept responsibility for how someone becomes angry with something I have said? If what I have said was not done in a way to warrant that anger?
How can I accept responsibility for a reaction to what I have said? When the reaction is based on what they believe and how it differs from my own? And not based on how I offended them?
How can I accept responsibility for how someone feels about what I have said? When I have not insulted them with what I have said or stated?
How someone takes it is a matter of perception.
I will give you an example:
I quoted one time scriptures as they related to the forum topic about God sending people to hell vs. people sending themselves there. I was not the only one quoting scripture and lengthy debate over this.
(The one in fact I had the debate with and I get along fine by the way though we disagree in beliefs).
But I digress,
In this forum I said,
"God does not send them, it is choice because belief is a choice". I said further, "I am a sinner. I am not worthy of heaven, but God loves all. And has provided a way for all to receive that reward."
does that offend anyone in here? If it does please explain how I was being offensive.
I have been told my God is a psychotic so and so who is evil and a murderer. Do I react with anger with them over it? no. I have more self control than that as well as I forgive and consider the source
I have been told I am a ignorant, uneducated "sheepie" and sock puppet. because of what I believe.
and uhm, my reaction... sorry you feel that way about me. I forgive and consider the source.
So why then would you presume that I am to take responsibility for what they say cosette?
because what I say sometimes differs from your own beliefs? or theirs?
now see....that right there...you "forgive" me? i wasn't asking you for forgiveness. i wasn't asking you for anything. true forgiveness comes from time spent soul-searching and isn't something you just toss out on message forums to show how magnanimous you are.
"consider the source", smileyface?
again, a term used when you want to negate anything said by a person and assign no value to it by dismissing that person as someone of no account. you don't know me at all so you are completely incapable of "considering the source". all that i know about you are your forum posts, and that is what i am commenting on - your posts.
YES - you are perfect, atomswifey. you are, like Jesus, alone in your faith amid a crowd of horrible evil unbelievers. forgive them for they know not what they do...
i didnt toss out that I forgive in my posts lol
I love how you twist my words
And I didn't say I was forgiving YOU I was not talking about YOU! lol
And there you twist my words again,
I said I forgive, that is what I do if I feel offended.
Then I consider the source
knowing that we as believers do not battle flesh and blood.
this is a part of the problem. why, in all your christian wisdom, can you not forgive without considering the source? as cosette suggests, your words invite whatever is thrown at you.
You attacked me quite viciously for disagreeing with you. You said to me, no, sorry, you said about me:
wow how rude
how utterly and completely rude and obnoxious.
How can anyone have respect for someone who would take what I just said up there and turn it into what he did
just to disagree with me! wow.
really nice man
I have to go now before I forget my faith on this guy!
My response to that insult was courteous (though you ignored it) and I only bring it up again here because you are once again being self-righteous and sanctimonious. I'm thinking of pots and kettles, you know?
I observed that while she believes in a hereafter, I do not. And I suggested that probability theory is on my side.
If that is an exact quote that too is not an insult
I lost a baby
Here is what was said between us
How rewarding as a parent to know your child will never have to face fear. Will never again have to deal with pain or illness.
That child is living and breathing an everlasting life of peace and comfort, of joy and laughter, no not just joy, extreme joy and extreme laughter from extreme happiness!
Is there any comfort in that? I think there can be.
So you say. But you don't know. And the chances are that you are mistaken.
No. Rewarding, as a parent, is seeing your child face fear and conquer it, and make his/her way as an adult in this world. There is nothing rewarding in the death of your first-born.
yes it struck a serious chord with me
I am only human after all
OMG, I am sorry for you loss. I actually mean this with the my most sincerity.
AW you struck a serious chord with me too. I hope that you may be able to see this from a different perspective someday. How you grieve your child is not how I grieve my child. It is not right for you to be offended by this if you can't accept that you offended us as well.
I really am sorry to hear that. I have never lost a child, but I have certainly lost members of my family.
Still, his opinions are his own.
AND YOUR LOSS GIVES YOU NO SPECIAL PRIVILEGE.
Anyone living on this planet long enough will experience a death that is almost too hard to bear. I know!
I am sorry for your loss. I also regret that you took offence at my post. However it was not clear until many posts later that you were talking about yourself. I also lost a son, and your position that such a loss could be some kind of blessing struck me as wholly misguided, and still does. I was not rude to you yet you jumped down my throat.
More sorrow and loss. I am sorry to hear this Paraglider.
"None of us leave this earth alive." This is my solace.
I will "cherish" my own loss by keeping it to myself.
Holy Moly, you too Paraglider. I am so sorry.
I think both of you share the equal right to feel the way you need to feel to give yourselves some sort of comfort.
A lady not far from here also lost her son last week. He was almost 2 years old. He died because his intestines exploded. There was not way to know this.
Again, Para. I am sorry for your loss. In this case, to each his/her own.
Oh I remember that.
She said you twisted her words. What twisting was involved? I didn't see any.
You simply stated what probability theory was and that the existence of a god, by that theory, was unlikely.
I don't think her response qualifies as an insult, but her reaction was very strident and high-pitched. Way beyond what I would consider appropriate.
Liam - please don't take this amiss, but I would say that to describe any woman's response as 'strident and high-pitched' is actually more insulting than to describe it as 'insulting' - because the former has distinct sexist overtones, which the simpler 'insulting' does not.
I've heard men become strident and high-pitched. I've also seen men referred to as "hysterical" more often than women, though the word has it's roots in a strictly female part of the anatomy.
There is no sexual overtone here.
Basic moral tribal codes were around thousands of years before Christianity was invented. Many of the ten commandments were just basic rules to avoid conflict among groups of people everywhere.
They date all the way back to Sumerian culture. You can even find "eye for an eye" and "tooth for a tooth" in their laws. That's 8,000 years ago. Long before Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
I am an avid amateur archaeologist with a very respectable collection of Native American artifacts I have collected from this area. Finding and holding in your hand a projectile point made 12,000 to 14,000 years ago tends to make one have a better grasp of our ancient ancestors. They survived without the bible!
I'm heading back over to the Mark Knowles is owed an apology thread...you know, the original. This is just a diversion.
Sounds mighty exiting, must say I have never had anything that old in my hand
Not trying to push my hubs but there are pictures if you are interested.
At least they survived without the bible before Christians invaded their lands and killed mpst of them off
i always wonder why, if Christianity is the One True Faith, it wasn't practiced from the dawn of Man.
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word.
So to that extent it was. Though it was not called that as the early believers in God did not know the messiah. The messiah had not come yet. And when He did they were blinded to Him. Some, not all.
But we are over 2 billion strong now and growing.
Christianity was not practiced until AFTER the death of Jesus.
it was practice after or practiced before? I curious to hear what you say, PG?
It was practiced before as they were waiting for him coming, bit like a bf of mine
I never criticized her - I only explained to her why her methods piss people off. So, no, I don't.
1. I know who the accuser of the brethren is ryan!
2. I have no problems with someone who disagrees with me and we exchange our beliefs back and forth
3. I know who I am and I am not the one who is causing controversy.
4. what the heck are you talking about?!!!
I have not published any hub on any other site!!!!
so the "previously published" is crap!!!!
5. slander is a vicious thing You lie!
6. why spout so much conflict about subject matter you know little to nothing about or even care to know about against people you do not know or even care to know about? You know what? you are not even worth this argument!
I am not going to respond to it any longer!
7. I went to that myself and someone stole my hub !!!! I do not appreciate the accusation but I do appreciate you letting me know this about whoever did this!
8. Because I am a Christian? So what? Get over yourself!!!!
Apologise for this BS MooseLike Behaviour? There is no apology required here... What is more appropriate is.... well... It Speaks for itself... Doesn't it?
No it doesn't but this does...
"When I was an child,
I spoke as an child,
I reckoned as an child;
when I became an adult,
I put aside the things of the child.
For now we see through a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.
But now remains
faith, hope, love,
but the greatest of these is love".
-1 Corinthians 13: 11-13
This thread has all the makings of a soap opera. Pretty much like all the politics and religion threads.
A thought just occurred to me, randomly. Or, it may have been divine inspiration.
Wife of Atom
Atom = alternative spelling for Adam
Adam = the first man
Could it be... that we... are actually conversing here on Hub Pages with the original woman, Eve?
... I'm just sayin'...
i think this thread topic is tapped-out...
Dear God, please give me that hour back.
The story of 'The Little Ginger Bread Man' springs to mind here!
Could someone please ask the baker to pick up his escaped Fruitcake and save the rest of us from having to witness it self destructing in the forums?
I've noticed that the "Mark Knowles is owed an apology" thread has been closed to reply. I find that, uh, very interesting.
I've been on this forum for almost 8 months, and have observed how the forum has changed. It used to be that Mark would argue with a group of people who respected his viewpoints, and also the fact that he presented them with a debate...someone they could respond to and sometimes, rail against. Both these believers and the "atheists" disagreed, but in essence, actually respected each other. It took me a while to come to this realization...but that's the size of it.
There are some serious letter vs. spirit/intent problems in interpreting personal attacks going on at Hubpages right now. Also quite a few newer people, quite intentionally or because they simply may know no other way of being, 'gaming' the system. Seems to me that the situation should be addressed for $ sake (yeah, uh, Mark? Obvious.), among other community oriented issues sake.
That's the soap opera, IMHO, as I see it.
PG, what was that you said about me on your post? Was that real?
Poor Maddie. I can picture her scanning forums and trying to shut them down before they get too inflammatory. I'm sure she has better things to do; that or her staff.
"Community Manager" certainly must include monitoring forums, but I'd be willing to bet she's spending more time closing them down than "managing" them.
Not really I have only seen about 6 closed to reply out of say the last 1,000, but on saying that the other 994 were so boring you probably missed them.
Hmmm. I've participated in three of those that were closed.
I honestly don't know why this one is still going and the original was shut down.
Does Mark Knowles NOT deserve an apology?
No he doesn't the Forums are a place for an open debate, you post your views and as soon as you do they are there to be shot at. Me, I post my views and I really don't care what anyone says to be honest. I don't actually think Knowles would want an apology, why would he as he is one of the most sarcastic and ignorant person on here.
Ignorant? No. Not by a longshot.
Your view, deff not mine but I respect your view.
And yet atomswifey continues to deserve an apology, though she never apologizes herself, and Knowles does not.
No Liam if you look down the Forums I have opened a thread on the fact that nobody deserves an apology. This is a Forum for open debate, you post its out there, you dont want to be critised then stay off the Forums, nobody deserves an apology !
Nobody? Ever? I think you are wrong! Very wrong.
Thing is Liam I really don't care what you think !
Oh I care what you think. Too bad. Guess you've yet to learn the true value of forgive and forget.
Tell me, doesn't that chip on your shoulder bother you a bit?
Lol I know the value of forgive and forget, ok I may have missed something in translation or perhaps the chip on my shoulder slipped and blocked my vision but who am I forgiving ? and what am I forgetting ?
Why do you care what I think ?
An apology and forgiveness go hand in hand.
I care what you post because some of it, quite a bit of it, is interesting.
But I guess you forgive no one and never forget?
Of course I forgive and forget in the real world but this Mark Knowles and Atomswifey apology lark has become a total farce, in reality I am quick to forgive. Trust me my friend there are so many petty little people on here that dont forgive or forget and they claim to be christian. I know them, and I laugh in their faces.
Don't misjudge the persona that me on here Liam !
Thank you for that. I'm not sure who you are.
I am pretty much who you see here. I have firm opinions, but can see the "other fellows" view too. As the saying goes "I can entertain an idea without marrying it."
And I completely understand atomswifey's fervor. It's just irritating is all. That and the fact that once she gets rolling she's no longer participating in the forums, but preaching instead.
I am both Cabin Girl and BadCo and I am sorry you are annoyed because you are a hell of a writer who sits at number 1 most of the time. You are a good guy but I really wouldn't let it get to you, tis a true saying that controversy brings people in and that benefits all.
I wish you good luck my friend but I still think the second you post anything on the internet you are a target for anything, that I personally know for a fact ! Agreed Knowles adds spice to the site but he can deff stick up for himself and needs no apology although I did notice the one he posted which was big of him albeit slightly tinged with sarcasm
Stop justifying all the time... turning it all around... and Denying any wrong doing AW.
You Are Merely demonstrating Manipulative and Compulsive behaviour. Take responsibility for your actions and your incredibly ignorant social skills.
This life is NOT all about you or What YOU believe..WGAS!
You get what you give and reap what you sow.
The wonderment of listening is critical to the art of communication. From what I have seen your skills and self esteem are lacking greatly.
If you are genuinely interested in soap-boxing; Then you need to improve your personna. Thanks for asking how I could help you; in short I think you need to help yourself on the above points!
Dissociating the intended subject (AW) of your comment, what you say here is spot on and applicable to so many hubbers! It would make for an excellent tutorialon how to (vs. how not to) be a successful forum thread poster.Or hubber for that matter.
You called it.
Agree with you PG, there is freedom of speech... and freedom of religion and so I suppose there is freedom of speech about religion, but I still think that AW takes it too far in that she often just outright rude to people.
I would validate this with a response, but I have seen so many other people do it and you manipulate the crap out of it, so I would rather not waste my time, thank you.
Why answer someone you don't care how he thinks ? I wonder....
nonetheless, the freedom of speech things shows that no one needs an apology
Why oh why do people posting here assume they have the "freedom of speech" here? You don't. Read your contract.
If that were true forums would not be shut down. Think about it.
I didn't read anything. I'm blind to censorship
The right to freedom of speech also does not mean what some people take it to mean.
In that case, you are right - AW should apologize to Mark Knowles because she is rude... but there has been so much additional "negative" things said because these forums opened than now either everyone should apologize to everyone else and our forums will be about apologies forever, or everyone should just move on and forget about it... these public apologies with people apologizing for others is ridiculous. If someone needs to apologize they should do it privately and not because they were "forced" to do it
I believe the original intent of the "Mark Knowles Deserves an Apology" was to draw him out again. mdawson said as much at the beginning.
mdawson is no fool. He realizes that Knowles keeps forums and topics going. This is good for hubpages...and you if you think about it.
Well isn't that just amazing (and Not an Act of God) You; for the First time 'graced me' with a reply! So perhaps the 'ignorance' that I referred to earlier.. Was merely Rudeness!
DO NOT Quote Scripture to me AW! You waste your efforts.
You May Well Find that I am More Conversant with same than you know!
Like Others; I do not appreciate self righteous and condescending dribble from anyone! Negative parties included.
You seek respect; yet lack it in yourself (which is very sad).
You seek attention; yet lack the ability to be seen.
You seek equality; yet you place yourself above those you do not know.
You seek a life of service to your Lord; yet you are unable to create a tranquility amoung your peers.
Get some Help... Get some honesty... Get some Humility and you may get some respect that will lead you to understand wisdom.
That is true Liambean... Mark Knowles is good for keeping things going.
As I have stuck up for Mark Knowles right to be here, I also back up Atoms Wifey's right to be here. There can be no debate without those who are willing to make the discussion.
While both parties have raised the dander of many, they have also both offered a lot to be considered. Positive or negative, take it as you see it, both have given to spirited debates which gave us all causes to take sides on and feel important about.
I did not apologize to Mark in the other thread, as I never chastised him. I will not apologize to Atoms Wifey, as I have not chastised her either. What I will say is that one has as much of a right to survive as the other in this forum, and that both offer a unique and polarized perspective that for many brings out the heart of the religious debate.
I think we all miss an important point ... no one would spread the word of God if we all believed and accepted it. After all, what would be the point? Do we all debate the existence of the very air that we breather?
On the other side of the coin, no one would stand against God unless they felt there were things that happened which made them believe blind faith could prove a hazard. Would you walk into a burning building if I told you the fire wasn't really there?
We all need something to believe in, and we need doubt to constantly examine those beliefs. Mark and Atoms Wifey represent these two polar characteristics, and without either one balance is lost and the argument runs astray.
So, I apologize to neither, but I do subscribe to the fact that both have a purpose in the religious forum ... a purpose we all might not share a liking for, but a purpose nonetheless.
Umm I think that no one should apologize for expressing their opinion about politics, religion, etc. But personal attacks shouldn't be allowed. I'm glad HP has that rule. We aren't five years old, ya'll need to grow up. What do you get from calling someone you don't even know, online, a name? Nothin. So have some self respect, discuss like adults, and if someone can't follow that, let HP handle it and... don't take it personally.
Personal attacks are what should prompt an apology.
I see it this way; if we didn't feel strongly about our beliefs personal attacks would be unlikely. But by the very same token one should be able to "cool off a bit" and realize that a personal attack requires an apology once reason again prevails.
Should one apologize for their beliefs? Never!
Of course, that does not mean I want them rammed down my throat either.
Why personal attacks at all? We're typing our responses. It isn't like someone blurts out a bad word. You type it... hopefully read it over... and then decide to hit Submit.
Define "personal attack" though. I'm sure some here see "personal" in what others of us see as general opinion.
I can think of many examples.
One should not have to apologize for their beliefs; but what they do with them is a different mater all together.
"Substantive debate and differences of opinion are okay. Name-calling, insults, threats, and passive-aggressive references to other users with whom you disagree are not. "
Pretty clear to me.
Then they need to go back to kindergarten and learn how to follow directions.
If it is a "personal attack" meaning you are talking about the person. Then it isn't allowed. Why is that so difficult?
Absolutely. And also, therein, my point about gaming the system. The language needs to be spelled out very clearly.
Also, I believe there to be a size/staffing problem.
Having a different opinion is not personal. Substantive debate either. What it makes it personal is, personal agressions ,and you don't need name-calling or insults to get personal with someone in a debate.
I've been called a stupid little girl, dumb girl, a racist, and been told that I put myself at risk for getting raped. Those are personal attacks. I seriously could care less, I don't know any of you personally, so it is hard to take comments personally. However, if I was someone who was offended I could have reported it. The men who made those comments have gotten in trouble for various things. I don't see fault in the system. I see fault in the people who can't grow up and have a conversation without making it a name-calling match.
This is interesting:
http://hubpages.com/hub/American-Fascis … nt-1659785
About the current political/verbal 'tone' in the US, of which Hubpages presents a microcosm.
There is such a thing as a sociopath (as well as all other derivations of rule breakers)...and they appear online as well as in real life. This is just a new medium. Society has always had rules to deal with these individuals. That's what law is supposed to be about...and laws are continually defined and redefined in exact language.
I guess HP just assumes we're all adults and they don't have to spell out every single little detail and constantly monitor every single person and situation.
Hmmm. No. It is probably more of a business issue, to be honest. lol, . From what I've heard.
Anyway, I was just reading that defamation cases are being won against those who commit such acts on the internet.
And maybe you don't know, but some here (I'm actually not the most targeted...at ALL) are being besieged with nastiness almost daily in the form of personal e-mails, and nasty attacks on hubs. Its almost a daily occurrence for these guys.
So people had better watch what they say to YOU, right?
Calling multiple people a "bitch," a "hag", or stalking their hubs leaving nasty remarks is inappropriate behavior.
Well I have my account set so I don't receive e-mails, but I understand that if that is what someone wants it sucks to have it ruined by someone. There is obviously a difference between someone calling someone a name in a forum and someone who comes at you from all angles and is consistent with their attacks. Whether or not it is a business issue, obviously I have no idea. But I just wish people would stop being so serious. It makes me wonder what people are like outside of HP.
they shouldn't assume. they should know. eventually each on of us will sort personal attacks in the best form possible. and if not, That's their problem. So I ask what's the problem? Don't we in real life name people and curse and offend and are we not offended and cursed as well ? Big deal !!
@ lita sorensen
'Anyway, I was just reading that defamation cases are being won against those who commit such acts on the internet.'
Is this a threat ??
Idon't know. I'm asking lita. are you lita's alter ego ?
TK asked the same question. Just because she makes a statement its a threat? It was just a general statement.
And nope, no alter ego. I have too much stuff going on to manage two accounts.
So you are not only wonder woman ,but a mind reader Wow !
TK posted something, you posted the same question. That is a coincidence. That was all I'm saying. It has nothing to do with reading your mind.
I wasn't talking about tk. Never mind ! crossed thoughts
People talk about TK, now I am worried about the site
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Have I mentioned my degrees, work, childhood accomplishments, relationships, generally wonderful character, and willingness to sue everyone?
I notice when you reply you always leave a huge gap, what does that tell you about yerself, go figure
The only one of those I have for sure is a relationship
Yes. For instance, calling someone who is in the public sphere a 'racist.' It could be damaging to their professional reputation. They have a case for defamation of character.
This is common practice in other publications all the time.
General information. I have feeling, anyway, you are a kid.
you're right. just out of prep school I'm very ignorant and stupid and selfish and proud and a lot of things. Thank you !
From an article I read: "People have the right to free speech," explains Matt Zimmerman, senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which defends digital rights. "But they've never had the right to defame someone. They still don't." The general rule is that you can be held responsible for spreading false statements that hurt someone's reputation, whether you post them online, publish them in a newspaper, or whisper them at a cocktail party.
It goes on...
I'm aware of this, I guess, because I studied journalism and now work in PR. We had to take a few Journalism Law/Media classes like that...
Of course. I have seen/heard of this as well. For me, it is important to separate internet from my real life. I know it is for other people as well. But I understand that if you decide not to do this you still don't deserve to be called something you are not and risk defamation.
Well, I'm a real life writer using my real name. Publication is publication. I don't see the dichotomy between online or print publication.
I understand. I know that this site is more of a job and a bigger source of income than it is for me.
Sorry ! I won't say anything to you anymore then. I will leave you alone as you're a real life writer, which I'm not
That's a silly assumption, Tantrum. I think you just misinterpreted something long ago that I said on that poetry thread.
All I remember saying is that two languages were similar, and that if you are interested in poetry that is written in Spanish, Teresa McGurk writes in both Spanish and English and would be a good person to talk to.
Let this thread drop, please! You're all just feeding the fire.
A "Mark Knowles" style apology or another kind?
I don't think so. Where is she anyway?
Dunno but I thought this is what this thread was about, an apology from the free thinkers. Was this a HubGroup founded and if so why didn't I get an invite ?
Those certain ones just love to think there is a big US VS THEM. A lot in their minds.
It was started by one of her pals. Nicomp to be specific. And in response to another thread started to apologize to mark knowles...which is now closed.
I think I might become a Religious fanatic, she gets more attention on this site than anyone.
Might be the Irish accent, BC - you must have thought the invite said 'Three Tinkers,' a Celtic-Mariachi trio currently taking Belfast by storm
I'll get me coat - I tink I was in Cork for too long
No. It ended 29 posts ago. The last 28 are purely imaginary...
Lita says you write good poetry in spanish. Maybe you can send me acouple by e-mail, and I send you mine. I'm a spanish writer.
lol. You get so much done with so few words. clap clap clap.
I posted this in another thread...
Thanks, Liam & Sandra - coping with death is simply part of the human condition, something that I think is more perfectly understood in the Buddhist tradition than any other.
http://www.buddhamind.info/leftside/art … z/kisa.htm
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