Where was the outcry!

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   tantrumposted 15 years ago

   @ valerie
   
   you should read the posts first, before writing
   Then you wouldn't make such  ridiculous mistakes !
   

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      tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Is this bullying ?
      then I am !
      sorry guys !

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   Leta Sposted 15 years ago

   Hey!  "Don't cry for me, Argentina..."  The post, get it?
     OK, maybe it wasn't that good.

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      tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      
      that was Evita, not me.

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   Colebabieposted 15 years ago

   "He mentioned the book he had been reading 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins and how it along with the science classes he had take[n] had eroded his faith. Jesse was always great about defending his beliefs, but somehow, the professors and the book had presented him information that he found to be irrefutable. He had not talked … about it because he was afraid of how you might react. ... and that he knew most of your defenses of Christianity because he himself used them often. Maybe he had used them against his professors and had the ideas shot down."
   
   Looks like he didn't kill himself because he was being bullied. He had no problem defending his Christianity in the past. Looks like he started believing what he was taught in class and read in the book. All of his beliefs, what he had been defending for 22 years, what he lived for... suddenly became a lie to him.

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      mobilephone guideposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      the Basic Lie that makes life possible. it's like a mob of religious zealots mocking every pagan or any belief that is different.

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         Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         A community college level biology class and a professor suggesting a textbook to raise some questions in a student's mind does not seem wrong to me. It is difficult to learn principles in biology and not raise certain questions. The student didn't have to read the book, nor did he have to belief what he read. He read it and then denounced all he once believed. I am not one to say what he read was correct or not. He chose to take his life. I understand the amount of pain the father must be enduring. Especially knowing that before his son took his own life, he denounced his beliefs. It is a sad story. And the professor will feel guilty for the rest of his life, that a suggestion he made may have influenced the student's decision.

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            mobilephone guideposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            people are just not that strong.

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               Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               In regards to?

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                  mobilephone guideposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  mental health.

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                     Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree. Some people aren't. Some people I have met I wonder how they keep it together, I think I would fall apart in their situation. I can understand the guy's depression. Changing your beliefs, your life, your reason for living, so drastically in such a short period of time. When I'm sure he wasn't living an easy life to begin with.

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   Valerie Fposted 15 years ago

   An Argentine who doesn't know what bullying is or has his or her head completely stuck in the sand on this issue (FYI bullying happens anywhere and anytime one feels entitled to put other people down for being different, not just in schools) does not represent Argentina well.
   
   I made a mistake. I admit it. Now you can prove you're not a bully and not rub it in my face.

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   h.a.borcichposted 15 years ago

   It sure would be nice if the forums were really debates or sharing.
   
     Am I the only one who sees a "pack" mentality on the religion forums? Where a post is made and the frenzy begins? I think there are some who just troll and within seconds of a post - they start name calling and completely attacking. It looks like gangs patrolling turf.
   
   I'd like to participate in true discussions, but I won't open myself up for the brutality some seem to live for on the forums.
   
   Is it just me who sees that?

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      mobilephone guideposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      it's on every political, religion... almost every forum. even food! aka meat eaters vs vegetarian

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      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      No many of us have gone through this.

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         h.a.borcichposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Well, take care out there:) and thanks for sharing, Holly

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            Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            It's been going on since I have been coming to these forums Holly but the militant atheists have gotten worse lately.  They are like the League of the Militant Godless.

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            mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Welcome , take care yourself. There are many intelligent people here with whom one can have a nice debate.

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      Quilligrapherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I see no reason why forums can’t be a place for serious debate and sharing.  Trolls can not be prevented from posting in the forums but they can be prevented from highjacking the discussion.   Simply ignore their posts.  Nothing is more irritating to a bully then being ignored.  Trolls want to argue and they need to be noticed.  Give them what they want and they will never leave.  The best way to have a meaningful dialog with other posters is to just keep your comments on topic. Treat the posts of all the trolls on both sides of the issue as background noise and just tune them out.  No one should feel obligated to reply to any comment just because it was directed at them.
      
      Just a thought.  I’m just background noise so feel free to ignore me.
      Q.

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         aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Good sound advice....

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         h.a.borcichposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Nice to meet you and thanks for input!
         
           Hopefully I'll get this in perspective and become an active participant soon. Holly

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   h.a.borcichposted 15 years ago

   Wow ! Glad I haven't identified my dietary preferences
      
    
     The only forums I have participated on before were with cancer patients pooling clinical trial information. There were emotional debates and wide range of opinions, but not hostilities.
   
     thanks, Holly

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   Valerie Fposted 15 years ago

   You know, if the teacher only wanted to challenge the student's mind and address the questions, say, that an ID proponent might have about evolution, I could think of a lot of books that are better and more relevant to the actual subject of biology than The God Delusion.

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   aguasilverposted 15 years ago

   For sure this is a tragic event, but suicide by book is unlikely and in this instance, without having all the facts, I must agree that although Dawkins book may have been a contributing factor, it is probable that there were other circumstances that finally cause him to suicide.
   
   Unfortunately we will never know.
   
   When I read Dawkins book I was also at a 'dark night of the soul' point in life, and had no real relationship with God at the time.
   
   The first few chapters led me to question my faith and the whole 'God' thing more deeply, and I will admit Dawkins had me thinking about an area I had not considered since coming to faith 13 years earlier.
   
   I thank Dawkins for that, however, my faith was renewed when I realised that the reason Dawkins was/could be and atheist was written clearly in the book.
   
   He had been the subject of a spiritual encounter (either from God or Satan's forces)and his 'rational' mind had dismissed it completely.
   
   His spirit has never been enlivened and therefore he is still spiritually dead, in fact he is dead in all senses of the word, except his body is still living.
   
   The living dead.
   
   So no, I will not be blaming Dawkins's book 100% for this death, but it's possible God may, because His word states:
   
   Matthew 18:6-7
   
   But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
   
   "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

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      aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I will add, had this been a homosexual who committed suicide after reading the bible, our founder members of the 'spaghetti monsters fools society' would be all over it.

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   Pr0metheusposted 15 years ago

   This is OUTRAGEOUS!  I can't believe people would do this.
   
   I mean, come on, what kind of reporter posts an article about this CRAP.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Outcry? What outcry should we expect?
    
    This is a really sad event and using a person's death to attack other people who do not believe in jesus is pretty pathetic I admit. But outcry? Not really. I am not surprised and it is nothing unusual. That is what the christian religion is based on. Passive aggresive attacks.
    
    Still - it is worth bearing in mind - you guys are right in a lot of respects.
    
    Learning science and facts will erode your faith. Your faith is based on nothing that makes sense in the real world and is going to be challenged every time a real fact is presented to you. Learning about biology? Guess what? Yup - it contradicts your beliefs. This is called "cognitive dissonance," and is - I believe - responsible for much of the disputes we see in the world today. What a shame your religion is responsible.
    
    Sad to say - but I think we should be looking a little deeper in to the child abusers who created this worthless faith in the first place.
    
    This is why teaching blind faith in a non existent super being to young people is actually child abuse.
    
    I agree with you spiderpam - it should be illegal to teach children this religious nonsense. It has already been removed from America's classrooms. It is time it was removed from America's homes. Well done.......

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       Bibowenposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Comrade Knowles,
       
       Well stated and thank you for your continued dedication to the Party. Of course, we outlawed such nonsense in our Mother Russia years ago. We forbade the parents to teach their children that nonsense about Adam and Eve and would not let parents take children to church/temple/synagogue. Had we had more compatriots like yourself and that excellent propagandist, Richey Dawkins, to keep the old ideas alive, we might still be in our glory days. But, take heart Comrade; we will silence the propaganda of the believers with the selfless sacrifice of those like yourself.
       
       You are a true source of strength to our younger informants. Your dedication to worker solidarity and revolution will not go unnoticed, I promise you.
       
       Comrade Yuri Kasparov
       Party Secretary for the Committee of Demisinformation

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          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          What a shame you missed the point I was making. Not even funny either.
          
          How many young men need to die before you understand the damage you are doing?

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             Dee Dee MonSherieposted 15 years agoin reply to this

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             aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Excuse me, but it looks to me like the damage (if it can be placed anywhere) was caused by Comrade Dawkinsky writing a book designed to destroy faith in young people for the sole reason that HE (The Great Dawkins) decided that they should NOT BE ALLOWED to hold such faith.
             
             Your plaintiff pleas about the death of the young man are crocodile tears playing to the audience like a true actor.
             
             If you cared one iota for anyone else, you would speak words of life rather than death.

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                Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                I think you are deliberately avoiding the lesson that is to be learned here.
                
                I have long said that an irrational belief pounded into children that cannot stand scrutiny is wrong.
                
                Child abuse no less.
                
                Sorry you think that writing a book pointing out how pathetic your belief system is means you should "NOT BE ALLOWED" to believe it.
                
                You can believe whatever you like. Just do not be surprised when young people start killing themselves when they discover the truth. I can see more and more of this happening now that we atheists are allowed to express our opinions of religion.
                
                No more burning us at the stake. Too bad huh?
                
                But I do not see too much sympathy being spoken of for anyone here. Just another christian attack on knowledge and science.
                
                Of course his faith was eroded as soon as he went to college, and was faced with genuine facts instead of this rubbish you teach to your children.
                
                Seriously - a circle is two dimensional shape and the dinosaurs died out long before we arrived. They are going to find this out when they go to school.
                
                It is these children we should be worried about. The ones whose parents fill their heads with this nonsense. I genuinely feel for them - because they are either going to find out the truth and have their faith crushed - or they are going to go through life with their eyes closed.

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                   aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Oh Balderdash Mark,
                   
                   You may have fundies in the States that shield their children from the world and are surprised when the world takes a swing at their 'conkers', indeed listening to some Americans I do not doubt it at all, and if that is the case then I am probably as much against that sort of thing as you are.
                   
                   But those people need education, biblical education, to show them that the doctrines they have been taught are insufficient for this world as it stands.
                   
                   Now you would say they need to be taught to not believe, I would say teach them to believe correctly.
                   
                   If some of them lost faith and became atheists, so what, it's their decision and if they can do that, then they were never really disciples of Christ in the first place.
                   
                   Now where I come from people who have that sort of blind faith just do not exist.
                   
                   None of the people I share fellowship with came from or were raised in 'heavy shepherding' religious Christian families, and we certainly do not raise our kids to be clones of our grandfathers.... I told my son all about God of course, but I never made him do anything religious, indeed when he was about 14 years old he wanted to be baptised and I would not let him do it, because at that age they start thinking about what the bible states and can turn to Christ from fear, and we just don't do fear here! - so I told him to come see me the other side of puberty and a year later he was off and running working as a waiter and living with a bunch of youth who ran a restaurant/ bar.
                   
                   OK he was nearby, but I saw him infrequently and I knew they smoked dope most nights after the finished work, and so what?
                   
                   If God wanted him, there was no escape, and if God knew he was going to reject Christ, there was nothing I could do that would make him into a disciple.... I could force anybody to be a pew warmer for a while, but why bother?
                   
                   If someone belongs to Lucifer and not God, so be it, my job is to help those who WANT to be saved, those who don't are not my problem.
                   
                   If our belief system is so pathetic, why would a seriously over educated chap like Dawkins need to write a book to expose it?
                   
                   Maybe he's just in it for the money, but from what I have seen he is your High Priest and has a real passion for trying to pull down religion.
                   
                   Well we all know that just not going to happen any time soon, no matter how much you atheists try or are allowed to spout off, because God, if He exists (which I KNOW to be true) will not allow you to interfere with His plans, indeed for you to get this far (as to be able to spout this nonsense without being burnt at the stake... (just joking))He must have approved your actions.
                   
                   You are facing the task of rewriting 4,000 years of history and providing 55% of the worlds population with a viable alternative to eternity in infinity, and what you offer is simply not of interest to most folk.

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                      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      Sorry your beliefs have been proven garbage. You must be very angry.
                      
                      No worries - it will take generations I agree. It is such a wonderfully easy answer and people often take the lazy route. No thought at all. Until that fateful day when you learn the truth.

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                         thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         Ad-homonym attacks! You're losing

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                         aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         Mark, you forget I STARTED from where you are now and left that position nearly 17 years ago, I do know the truth and the truth has set me free.

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                            marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                            Faith isn't truth without logic. The bible contradicts logic.

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          Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Yes what bliss to allow a government to totally rule your lives.
          Not!..Thank the Absolute for freedom

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       h.a.borcichposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Mark,
       
         This thread is about a young man who committed suicide. There has been speculation as to why he did it, but we cannot know his reasons. We can however, be grieved and sympathize - he was a human being afterall. And we can be motivated to be a better society that maybe we can prevent suicides.
       
       Instead it has been reduced to name calling and what appears to me as bullying. Even talking to a hubber as if they were a dog - that is not debating or discussing. It is just flat out wrong.
       
           I raised my son with traditional christian values his entire life and he has kept it for his own. His faith kept him strong as he served in Iraq for 18 months. He was over there 2 weeks when he was caught in the battle of Fallujah and he attributes his survival to his God.
       
       Your quote above is disturbing. Do you think anyone has the right to decide what values or beliefs I teach my child in my home?

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          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          No - I was being ironic.
          
          I sometimes forget that people who believe in god have their irony bones removed at indoctrination.
          
          But I think you need to take a look at who and why this thread was started before pointing a finger at me.
          
          And yes - I do personally believe that indoctrinating children onto religious practices before they are old enough to understand is child abuse.

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          Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Spoken like a true communist militant atheist Mark.  You should be ashamed of yourself.
          
          The bottom line is that if Christian belief is taken out of the classrooms then so should atheist belief.

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             sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             That wouldn't seem to solve anything either.

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          h.a.borcichposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          
          THIS THREAD IS ABOUT A YOUNG MAN WHO COMMITTED SUICIDE. I stated it up front to be clearly on topic.

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             Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             From the article linked to by the OP:
             
             "A New York man is linking the suicide of his 22-year-old son, a military veteran who had bright prospects in college, to the anti-Christian book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins after a college professor challenged the son to read it."

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    lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago

    Is this thread seriously still alive?  I guess so since I just posted. Damn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 

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    Scott.Lifeposted 15 years ago

    It is sad that this young man felt so completely hopeless that suicide seemed the best option. Can you say a book was at fault, or that a book killed him? I really think that's a stretch. Suicide is the result of severe depression and anger culminating in a moment of desperation and violence towards oneself.
    
    I'm sure in the father's eyes his son was being bullied that is certainly more of an acceptable outcome then to place the blame for his son's death where it really belongs and that is with his son. This young man killed himself, lest we forget what suicide means. A book, or more accurately an idea can not kill, only make you think, and influence you to the extent that you are willing to let it. This book no more killed this boy then the gun he used, this boy killed himself, and without the depression and suicidal thoughts the book and gun both remain inanimate objects with no power at all.
    
    I read alot about it being the Christian's duty to profess their faith without fear and to be unafraid, and it seems this young man did, and his professor responded in kind. I have also read Dawkins book, and found it thought provoking and entertaining. It raises interesting questions that caused me to examine my belief closely, yet I am still alive and my faith is still present. Maybe because I realize that a book is just a collection of words and without any real power except what we give it.
    
    Fact Christians are a majority in America. Another fact a Christian must be aware that there are other beliefs out there and people will feel differently about it then you. Fact, there will come times when your belief will be called into question and your faith tested. Fact any idea that destroys your faith only reveals the weakness of your faith to begin with. Finally six years ago in Knoxville, Tenn. A 21 year old boy was found dead in his college room. The College he attended was Johnson Bible college. The young man was gay, and in his journal he wrote that he was being tormented by faculty and students alike for his lifestyle and was convinced because of their insistence that he was doomed to hell, and quoted several bible scriptures that had been scrawled on his dorm room door. This young man killed himself by cutting his wrists. Where was the outrage over the bullying then? Did this young man kill himself or did the students and staff that tormented him? Or is this just acceptable because his lifestyle is perceived by Christian extremists to be a sin and unacceptable? You tell me.
    
    Christians are not being persecuted anymore then any other group in the US. A person need only pick up a paper or turn on the news to see that they enjoy wealth and power unheard of for Christians throughout the rest of the world. They hold several key government positions and offices, and most recently the presidency of the US. Using this poor boy's death to somehow legitimize a religion and attack its opponents is shameful and uncalled for. How low will we as Christian's go?

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Again Scott you missed the point. It's about bullying no one here ever said any about Christians being justified. EVER! I didn't hear this story and I should have. We hear about gay “rights” more than anyone else. Prop 8 hijacked every news channel, but they neglected to mention the Christians and some mormons who were threaten, had property destroyed, and yes were bullied for standing up for traditional marriage. This was an untold story. The secular godless have hijacked our schools, removed God, They won’t stop tell Christians are wiped out. How low will you go to for that pat on the back!  You think we are whining tell them that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T94hs1IgASY
       
       And before you pull out that old homophobe card:
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmEux9PlOj4

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          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          More than 33,000 people a year kill themselves in the US. It is the third leading cause of death amongst young people.
          
          Tell me about all the other suicides that you did hear about that were not "caused by learning about science."
          
          What were they caused by? I assume you did hear about all the other ones.....

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             thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Just so-called science, like evolution caused over millions upon millions of murders. Guess what percentage of those suicides are among the Godless?

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                Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                I have no idea what percentage are among the godless, but you are certainly showing this dead young man no respect by doing this.
                
                But - what about these others - are you not outraged that they were not reported on Fox News?
                
                Sorry your beliefs have been proven to be garbage. You must be very angry. I was too when I found out the tooth fairy did not exist. Almost like my parents had been lying to me. Very upsetting. I did not get a fear of homosexuals from the experience though. Odd huh?

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                   thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Here we go again, Bring back evol guy.

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          Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          No you missed the point because you are not willing to see it. This boy killed himself, not a teacher, not a book. Everyone deals with bullying. But not all of us kill ourselves over it. In fact most of us don't, we move on in life and keep going. We don't give up and we don't blame others for not trying to find another way. When you kill yourself then yes you are to blame. Trying to spin it around and somehow justify this boys suicide as a reaction to bullying is absurd. He killed himself and according to you and other believers now he will answer to God for it.
          
          Who is this "We" that hear about gay rights all the time, the only place I even hear about gay anything is on the Hubpages Forums. Spend your life looking for things to attack and blame and you will never fail to find them. Maybe the reason I rarely hear about Gay news is because I'm not gay and I don't go around looking for it. You are always beating the same old dead horse. YOU are not being persecuted. I have seen hundreds of new believers just like you, new in your faith and on fire for God. Everywhere you turn there's some new threat and enemy to your faith. Grow up man and get a life already. The only enemies you have are the ones you're creating everyday with this continuous parade of "Poor me the persecuted Christian."
          
          This boys father is distraught over his son's suicide and I would suppose since he is an orthodox Christian, his son's judgment for that sin and he is looking for a place to vent his anger and grief and hold someone responsible. The one responsible for taking this life is in the grave. Life is not pretty and you will be held responsible for the things you did, not God, not your family, not a teacher or a book, but you. I suggest you learn that lesson soon. The continued belief of some Christians that its all God's doing so they are not accountable is ridiculous and hypocritical. In your zealotry to carry your banner of crusade you can not even see the truth of this matter. The boy killed himself and he is to blame for it and he will pay for it, according to your very own Bible and God so deal with that truth.

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             thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

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                Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                I am always glad to see that your maturity as an adult matches your maturity as a Christian, keep up with the jokes and the smart comments and insults, the only one you're hurting is you. Its your pattern you start something and then run and hide behind the absurd when someone throws the truth at you, how ironic, and completely sad. But what else can we expect from you....

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                   thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Stay!

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                      Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      What a fine display of Christian maturity and humility, keep it up. Referring to me as a dog is your best trick yet. You are such a great example to Christians worldwide.

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                         thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         No you are.

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                            Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                            Good, they need some sanity and reason to follow.

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    Len Cannonposted 15 years ago

    Scott, that is a remarkably cogent response in a thread filled with, well, you see.

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    spiderpamposted 15 years ago

    I would like this closed, I've asked several times!

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I had to ask 5 times.

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          cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          it's a secular conspiracy, i tells ya
          
          the worst part about this whole thing is that this young man was never given the opportunity to be exposed to any opposing viewpoint or allowed to discuss such things with his parents, argue them intelligently, etc.
          
          instead it was something he had to hide and feel ashamed of and then it struck him to his very core and made him challenge his beliefs. which would have been fine if he had open communication with his parents. i have allowed my child to find his own way and discuss anything with me, even things that are not what i believe. fear is a terrible thing. it is drummed into some children when they are very young and then when they grow up and are exposed to the real world, if they haven't examined other viewpoints and been allowed to question, some can't deal with it, which is unfortunate. no one was bullied here. no one was even pushed. in cases like these, i always look to the parents. we have a huge influence on our children, and an awesome responsibility. part of that responsibility is allowing them to fly on their own. i think it is horrible that his faith crumbled so easily and he had no one to talk to about it besides his friends.

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          spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this

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    spiderpamposted 15 years ago

    PLEASE!

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Another one?

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

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          thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    I would like to see this thread left open.
    
    I see no reason to close it just because the religionist who started it wants it closed.
    
    What are you hoping to achieve here spiderpam or tth?

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I guess if you want it open it will stay open! Sorry spider

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          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          LOL
          
          I do not have any control over that.
          
          Please answer the question. I am seeking to understand. What are you trying to achieve. Except show how persecuted you are if this thread stays open.

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             spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Sure you don't. See ya truth keep me posted on how long this stays open after my 5 request to close.

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                Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                It's hard to believe you want something closed that you are actively participating in.

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       spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Ahh, The evangelical atheist, has arrived. I hope you are well. I simply trying to share an untold story.

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          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry you do not like it that I do not subscribe to your belief system.
          
          So - what do you think the answer is? We cannot keep all scientific knowledge from young believers for ever. We would have no one to fix our computers when they break down.
          
          But thank you for reminding us of the dangers of indoctrinating children into religious cults. I would have never found this amongst the other 32,000 reported suicides this year.

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             thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

             It's not religion you have problem with you just want your religion in our schools, we'll you got it, so what's the problem. You keep neglecting to mention millions killed by your religion but don’t worry I won't let you forget.  btw Godless suicide rate always rise, especially this time of year.

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    Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago

    The lows are getting lower

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    Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago

    this topic has been incorrectly filed,
    
    it is not a theological issue.

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    Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago

    Suicide is the issue here.  Not religion.  The kid killed himself.

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    Daniel Carterposted 15 years ago

    A lot of fact is missing from the story. The father draws conclusions based on partial evidence. Perhaps the boy's beliefs were challenged vehemently. But if they weren't challenged, where would his inner strength come from? Where would his real conviction to his beliefs originate without challenge?
    
    I had this experience as well, but in an entirely different way. It was tortorous. It turned my whole world upside down. I went from being completely devout to something in between atheist and believer. And I'm happier, calmer and more at peace than I can remember. No more white knuckling my way through life. It was the challenge, not the sheltered, living-in-a-bubble life that taught me what I needed to know.
    
    If our ideas and beliefs aren't challenged, we would live this whole life based on superstitions, half truths and lies, with a mix of facts. What a convoluted way to live. Give me the facts, ma'am.
    
    As for the boy, I'm very, very sorry for his suffering and for his family's suffering. It wasn't right or fair, really. But what in this life is? If you believe in something greater than yourself, then rather than condemn those who opposed him, you should take comfort in knowing that whatever this boy's fate is, it is in good hands.
    
    All this name calling is really old. All it shows is how fragile and insecure a person really is. Lashing out is about your own unsure convictions and beliefs.
    
    That said, I think this conversation does have a few healthy aspects, although the name-calling, etc, only exposes the character flaws of the people who engage in it.

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    pay2cEMposted 15 years ago

    I did read the full article, and I have read the book. (I used to be a Christian but no longer consider myself one...for many years before I read Dawkin's book) I know many Christians who've read his book and simply disregarded because they won't allow anything that challenges their beliefs to set in.  I also know several people who were on the fence with Christianity who read it and had their minds swayed to the ideas of the book.  That a "strong" Christian could read this book and lose his faith over it to such an extent that he killed himself tells me several things:
    
    1. He was a HARDCORE Christian to begin with, deeply rooted.
    
    2. He was the extraodinarily RARE Christian whose beliefs don't get in the way of common sense and logic, since he saw the reason in this book and was forced to change his mind about things because of it.
    
    3. He - like most religious people - could have benefited from education on other worldviews.  Learn what most atheists have to say about the beauty and purpose of life without an Invisible Sky Man in it. It's not depressing, it's inspiring.
    
    The thing that doen't make any sense to me in this story is: if suddenly you came to the belief that there was no afterlife, that life on this earth is all we have, WHY in the world would you choose to end it???!!  Life is precious.  Life is beautiful. Life has whatever meaning and purpose you choose to give it. Any death is a tragedy - regardless of the age or reason for it - but I daresay this young man had far more severe issues than just a book.

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       R.G. San Ramonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Most believers (not only Christians) hope for an ideal world, where everything would be perfect. That idealism often provides meaning in life; that is, reality side-by-side with an ideal world. Perhaps he realized, if there is no God, if there is no perfect being (at least what He thinks of Him to be), if there is no world better than this world, then what reason am I here to stay? Faith provides meaning, especially for circumstances that go beyond the limits of reason. And that faith was destroyed. Existentialists value life as they go through with it. Idealists value life as a means to appreciate and understand a perfect world.

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       rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       One thing that could have been going through his mind was that his faith gave him hope.  Hope is a wellspring for all good things to happen.  If his hope was dashed maybe the dispair was too much to bare.

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       aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       ...and you answer was?
       
       You see either we have a case where a young impressionable Christian, was killed by what a mature and determined atheist wrote, and which another mature atheist made him read, or we have a newly converted atheist who, having realised that the ONLY end was the end, nada mas... finito! and saw the futility of such a life.
       
       "Life is precious.  Life is beautiful. Life has whatever meaning and purpose you choose to give it."
       
       Unless the purpose you choose to give that life is to serve the Lord Jesus Christ, your Lord and Master, in which case YOU would say it's a pathetic, wasted life and the dissident MUST be re educated until he supports the party line.
       
       Which was  is it, or what other answer did you come up with?

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          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Wow - I did not realize it was so easy to kill a christian.
          
          So - it was definitely Dawkins fault for sharing scientific knowledge huh?
          
          Should we make it illegal?

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             thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

             All he shares is hate, no science you've read the book

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          sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          If he lived his whole life believing that one day God was going to come down out of the clouds and scoop him up and he suddenly found out it was all a lie...
          
          The entire world had been lying to you... you might want to kill yourself.
          
          He also could have been so delusional that he figured he would find out right there and now, the who is telling the truth.  No better way to find out then to die and see what happens right?
          
          Mark is right, religions are dangerous so if you really do care about your kids feelings and thoughts, you would allow them to understand both sides but reassure them that whatever they believe is going to be okay.
          
          Reading something like The God Delusion could have been the straw that broke the camels back but originally, it would have been 'faith' that killed him.
          
          I certainly remember how I felt after reading the Bible all the way through in context.  When I realized the entire world had been lying...
          
          Well, it's a tough pill to swallow and definitely one of the most disturbing things I have ever gone through in life... a book.  No it wasn't the book, it was the lies that people had told me.  That's a lot of lies!
          
          I also read the God Delusion and didn't find him to be too over the top.  There wasn't a lot that had to do with evolution and it does seem that it was written with the intentions of destroying faith by logic.
          
          I might not like Dawkin's much myself but I wouldn't believe he ever intended for children to kill themselves over it but for him it would certainly prove a point.
          
          Like I said, 'faith' or 'lack of faith' (however you chose to look at it) caused the kid to kill himself.
          
          In a lot of ways it is child abuse and it doesn't seem like his parents really care to understand their own child but are ready to blame an atheist for his sons troubles.
          
          Faith is the root of the problem.

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       Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       It's not the lack of an afterlife that a believer would find depressing per se, but the idea that there simply is nothing better than the ruthless and unjust universe we currently occupy and absolutely no point in anything.
       
       And if life only has whatever meaning each person chooses, that means life is only precious and beautiful if someone chooses to regard it as such, and is of absolutely no inherent worth. (And I am of the opinion that people who haven't chosen or found a purpose still have one.)
       
       If I am undecided regarding my purpose, does that mean I don't have any purpose? If I do, where does that purpose come from?

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    thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years ago

    Still open

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    alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago

    Faith is gone yes, but the book thing, hmmm, there is more to it than just a book

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    cosetteposted 15 years ago

    i have that book, actually. i haven't had time to read it though.

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    chambersgirl21posted 15 years ago

    The kid was probably publicly hounded for his beliefs. I would do anything to be a bug on the wall in that class.
    
    I'm sure the guy had characteristics similar to mark- and would do anything to push his agenda. Including humiliation to a young kid.
    
    that may be why Sooner called them bottom feeders in the toilet of life.

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    marinealways24posted 15 years ago

    I see a lot of crying on this thread. You expect a religious person to start a thread promoting criticism of an atheist belief then cry and complain when a non believer challenges it. There is no proof that more non believers commit suicide than believers, I would make a faithful assumption to say that mostly believers commit suicide over non believers.

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       chambersgirl21posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I would love to see those results, only from someone reputable. I.E. not you

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          marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          You think more people think they are going to hell, heaven, or nowhere when they pull the trigger?

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    h.a.borcichposted 15 years ago

    Mark,
    
      There are many convoluting this thread and I am sure it will continue. I have read the entire thread.
    
     
      I pointed out your quote. What was there to misinterpret?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       This thread was started why?

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       marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Lol The OP is the one that "convoluted" the thread. If you don't want disagreements, you shouldn't start a disagreement. Logic or faith, faith or logic?

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    chambersgirl21posted 15 years ago

    ahh, I don't worry about it. We win in the end. The atheists will be militant and persecute us- but then we get to plant flower gardens amongst the ashes.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       LOL
       
       There you go. What are you complaining about?

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          chambersgirl21posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Nothing, I'm happy.

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    Len Cannonposted 15 years ago

    Also, this kid was able to hack it as a military veteran but it  the emotional stress of a biology course that made him crack?  I feel like there might have been some damage done to the psyche while serving overseas.  PTSD is hard to deal with, especially in someone who was admittedly as closed up as the victim.

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       Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Excellent point, Len. I sort of alluded to the same in my post, but you did a much better job in elaborating. While the assumption is that this boy was badgered about his beliefs, it could actually be a severe case of PTSD, since it's clear he was a veteran. Having his beliefs challenged severely may have just put him over the edge. I don't think the father's conclusions can be considered complete in any way. There is clearly far too much additional evidence that should be considered.
       
       Regardless, it's a complete shame that he ended his life, based on extreme experiences, which in reality were not ever permanent. There is more to life than what he experienced.

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          sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          And he was probably never offered the opportunity to see the real beauty in life.   Speaking of which to change the subject a little bit.
          
          Ants, maybe he would have found this amazing.
          
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQERRbU23bU

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             Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             I so agree, Sandra. The point being, that even during the darkest periods, curiosity should keep us going to see what's next. I've been surprised by joy so many times in my life, at the brink of giving it all up. It's worth it to keep going. The saddest part is that this boy didn't have anyone he felt could help or mentor him through this dark period. We can have a positive effect on each other without even really knowing it. (As well as negative, as evidenced by what happened.)

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                sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                True.

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    h.a.borcichposted 15 years ago

    What is your point?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Whose ? Mine?

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    h.a.borcichposted 15 years ago

    The thread was about a young man who committed suicide.
    
    Can't tell if you agree or disagree, but is sure did take the focus off your quote about controlling what I am allowed to teach my child in my home.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Have you even read the article that was linked to?

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          h.a.borcichposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          yes.
          
          We can only speculate what he was thinking or going through. But it bothers me that a young man is dead - you know that compassion bone you must be missing.
          
          I raised my son with faith and he is strong for it. You think faith caused this suicide and that I should not have had the right to teach my son in my home.
          
          Trying to address your quote but you keep squirming.

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             Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             The article is a clear attack on a book written by Richard Dawkins as being responsible for this young man's death.
             
             You can teach your children whatever you wish.
             
             Teaching them blind faith is god before they are old enough to think for themselves is child abuse and as far as I can tell - a contributing factor in this young man's death.
             
             Have you even read the article?
             
             Go buy a dictionary - look up the word "irony" and then re read it. Maybe you will understand where I am coming from.
             
             "They were undermining every moral and spiritual value for my [son]," he said. "They ought to be held accountable.""I want to hold schools accountable for what they're teaching our kids. This was malpractice,"
             
             I don't care what you have done to your son - but this one died because his faith was tested by a book written by a non believer - according to this article.

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                h.a.borcichposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Finally.
                   Yes the article does speculate what motivated the young man. We will never know, but I do believe Scottlife addressed it well.
                   Yes a young man committed suicide. If we focus on that fact, maybe be can be compassionate and find a way to save others before they do it too.
                    And me teaching my child about faith is not child abuse. It would be child abuse to not prepare him for life.

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    lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago

    KILL THIS THREAD ALREADY - ENOUGH

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    ronjer1posted 15 years ago

    the founders of Christianity, the catholics and orthodox are evolutionists. They claim God did the evolution because he wanted it that way. Are they out to kill Christians?

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       thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       so that makes it true?

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          ronjer1posted 15 years agoin reply to this

          well here you contradict yourself because you are inventing things that YOU want to believe in.
          either you believe in the christianity as the founders gave it to you, or you throw it out.
          And if you don't believe it, then we can assume that you have already founded something better and superior. Please tell us what your NEW christianity is....
          
          btw....catholic and orthodox also believe in the Big Bang, but God did it.
          please tell us what you have proposed that is superior...
          
          
          your whole argument is riddled with holes!

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