Why do you believe, or not believe in God?

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Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years ago
WHY do you believe, or not believe in God?
I believe because my logic leads me to two points.
1) if there is a lowest, then there is a highest.
2) just because I can't name, nor prove, that there is a highest number... doesn't prove there isn't one. My logic states there is one, however that number is ever growing, therefore ever changing. Humanity has come to call that number 'infinity'

These two points are why I believe.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have a belief of creation as well, however my belief isn't absolute. I choose to believe that we are of a greater purpose than ourselves when it is proven throughout life that sacrificing for others is possibly the greatest accomplishment and deed someone can make.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but WHY?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I answered partly on XTASIS's comment. Why do I believe self sacrifice for others is the most honerable decision in life or why referring to something else?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you believe or not believe in God?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know if I would call it God. Maybe a belief of creation with a creator or creators that set us with a higher purpose and abilities than other life. I think the name or term God has so many religious ties and deceptive beliefs, it can only be confused a majority of the time. I believe we could possibly have a higher purpose beyond this life when we can have a higher purpose while in the life.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  whatever you call God, WHY do you believe whatever it is that you believe.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because I choose logic that creation has a creator and choose faith in comfort that creation has a higher or better purpose beyond the creation. They are not absolute beliefs, but believed through faith until they are logically proven wrong.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not positive, but I think that is still what you believe... It may be I'm just not understanding you...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So - you have totally discarded logic in favor of a faith based belief and an illogical assumption that the universe was "created."
  
  And therefore needs a "creator."
  
  Shame on you.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Shame on you. <<<<(this is why people don't answer you).
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOLOLO
  
  They answered - like you - they justified their ridiculous beliefs using semantics and refused to answer "why"?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who said I discarded logic in my belief of faith? When did I say that the universe was created? I said creation has a creator. Is this not logical to you? Can you not read? Stop making faithful assumptions. How do you make an assumptions to believe creation doesn't have a creator without using faith over logic? Are you aware of this?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can read.
  
  And here you are defending you illogical faith based belief - just as you have been attacking all the other faith based believers.
  
  What is "creation" then?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Marriage Counseling?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Yes, I am so hurt by your contradictory comments. My non absolute belief is now shattered and now I will go cry. Get real. You were created by your parents. You are creation, get over it. You deny your parents, what did they do to you?
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  james hoyerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  kessposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Marine if you truly live what you believe, you are not far from the kingdom of God.
  Infact your perception of religion is a revelation from God himself.
  
  The simplicity of God is this,
  Good works from a pure heart.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Kess, the forum is "WHY" {do 'You' / does 'Kess'} believe or not believe...
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  Presigoposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very interesting logic you have here. I believe that is a good analogy and reflects a logical conclusion to faith which is a hard approach to make.
  I too do believe, my faith is premised more on "feeling" Him in my life. I have felt peace at times of grat anxiety or danger. I have had a sense of love attimes when I faced hatred. My normal I could list a million times and ways that God has made His presence known in my life, but I will not waste your space here on this thread. I have faith cause I know there is something far greater that designed this, and I am forever thankful that this superior force is good and has a capacity love that is as infinite as that ever increasing number
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are very right about the two points
  If there is a visible there is also an invisible.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But this is not logic and you have been unable to demonstrate a lowest.
  
  Personally - I don't believe for several reasons.
  
  1. No evidence at all
  2. Believers constantly shoving their religion out there and history proving they do not follow the basic tenets
  3. I have connected with the universe and there is no god involved
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The Forum is about WHY YOU (Mark Knowles) believes or not, it is not about why others do or don't, or if they are correct or not. thank you for participating...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLO
  
  OK - No sweat. But - why can't you just say you believe because you believe? This is a question that fascinates me - and I think is the cause of all the believer/non believer conflict floating around. I have been trying to get to the bottom of it for a while.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Start a forum, ask your question, get your answer. new questions arrise, so do new forums.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have asked several times and no one will answer me.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Charm, charism, politeness, the lack of arrogance...
  asking a question means accepting the answer you get.
  asking a question, to get a response that re-affirms your belief is manipulation.
  If you don't like an answer, ask someone else.
  (name calling, because you didn't like the answer, means that eventually no one will answer you, because they don't like to be called names.) sometimes there is no correct answer, there is just belief...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just belief. Yes - I see that. So - why do you need to justify it with semantics? I am really interested in this.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  when I was little I believed in the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, Santa Claus, unicorns and pots of gold at the end of the rainbow. then some adults told me there was no such thing. I just have to wonder why no one ever told me there was no such thing as God too. interesting...
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  but WHY do you believe there is no God?
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "CHRISTIAN" God.
  
  there is a difference.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, I too do not believe in the 'christian version' of what God is... but i'm still confused about your answer, your answering with what you believe not Why... you believe what you believe
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OH, heh. because i have answered this many times. you must be new
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The main question being asked is WHY do you believe or not believe in God?
  
  My 'why' is based on growing up and studying religion, thru classes, and when finished I had more questions. When I went to talk to my pastor about it. He directed me to scripture and this led me to investigating religion and scriptures authenticity as factual evidence, and find out for myself if the true doctrines of the Catholic religion could be accomplished.
  
  In my quest for this knowledge, I self-realized that there is no God. How did I come to a self-realization that God doesn't exist? It was obviously clear from the Doctrine themselves are all what I call "anti-life" and self-defeating.
  
  The first doctrine wants you to be selfless. You are to give yourself completely to others, whenever called upon to do so. You are to accept the challenge. This defeats Life, because after awhile you become selfish with your time, because so many will take advantage of you. You will get nothing in return, so there can be no fulfillness in satisfaction and turns you selfish. Hence, end result is a hoax. Cannot be done and is not in the nature of man and woman.
  
  The second doctrine wants you to forget desires. You are not to have any desires. Well, this one, even without the sexual nature, is anti-life as well. Because, desires fuel the future and for some people, the here and now. Plus a person's individual desires can be managed by a self-responsible adult. Therefore, again it cannot be done.
  
  The third doctrine want you to take your free will and give it up, to believe in a concept made by man, which claims to know what God's will is truly. When there are NO facts to enforce the belief. You must force your free will to believe in something you are not sure exists.
  
  Once, I cleared my vision, everything else in my life became one with my consciousness and given me more focus, because everything I do is enforcing my own individual purpose, which I set myself. I need not answer to a higher authority, because I am the highest authority in my life. This isn't up for debate. I've answered the question in the topic. You want to believe in God, go right ahead. You'll remain in the group that never learns the truth. Test the doctrines yourself. See if they work. I have and they don't. Have a great time with the thread...as I can see it's already getting interesting.
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  DogSiDaedposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Infinity is not a number. There is no highest number. Your logic failed.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If there is no highest number, then there can be no lowest number. Which means there can not be any number that is higher or lower. The existence of 'different' means the existence of a hierarchy. Different means not the same (not equal)...
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prettydarkhorseposted 15 years ago
I believe HIM because I can feel HIM, He is in my heart, I always use my heart in everything first, fsith then I proceed on
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james hoyerposted 15 years ago
I believe, I just do. I had a stroke a few days ago, my grand-daughter's typing this for me, And I hope I will improve as I go. That's why I believe in god. Thank you.
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docrehabposted 15 years ago
Here are the reason why I think God is real and living:
"Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Also, have you ever heard of the number of people who didn't go to their offices on Sept 11 2001 just because they "feel" something that was keeping them from doing it? Do you ever heard of the number of people who pray God daily and get some incredible answer...And personnaly I have many and many experiences. Surely God is real. You may not have find it yet. When you will meet him you will spread the word too ;-) Well, I personnally trust in Jesus. So, in short miracles are strong reason why I believe God DOES exist.
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XTASISposted 15 years ago
@ Mikel
did you open this thread to pick up fights, or are you really interested on what we believe or not?
because you haven't said a word about it. Just arguing.
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Bill Manningposted 15 years ago
I don't believe in any higher being, and it also, to me anyway, is because of simple logic. I studied the whole bible, many religions and so on.

I then studied what is very basic, like how the earth is, what life forms are and so on. Logic to me says that there is no higher being. Logic says all living things evolved over time to today, and they are still evolving.

Humans are just one of many life forms, no more, no less. That's how I see it, in my own logic way. So I guess you can look at things logically and still come away with different answers.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  so, in all that you studied, all that is built within our universe. Do you think that it is all unintentional? Unintelligent?
  
  chaos is what it sounds like you are promoting? Do you think that things are necessarily built from the bottom up? From the many to the one?
  
  do you think that your life, in all its good and bad, wonderful and majestic, is just a result of logic? And what is logic, but a thought manifested into system or common sense? How can a world without a creator have sense?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Easy.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  sounds like a good forum question to me...
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Wesley a world without a creator makes a lot of sense.Keep up! Science is moving on. I would post links, but I have never had one religionist read and comment on one.
  
  Religion= ignorance by choice.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  hmmm...i don't know if its fair to define religion that way.
  
  Religion is part of tradition, which escapes Western Modernist thought, of which we are all guilty of, i think.
  
  There is inherent traditional and historical value encapsulated in religion, so i personally wouldn't call it ignorance.
  
  Blind faith is ignorance, is a better way to say this.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  science, measurement of the majestic. it is useful in ways, but it is quantitative.
  
  man would like to think he is his own creator, and science is a conduit for this philosophy. i wonder how useful this type of arrogance really is to us.
  
  i'm not a religionist, but i would probably read your link. try me.
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wesleyacarterposted 15 years ago
if you are a believer, why would you be interested in the reasons why people do not believe?

is that a form of doubt?

or just abstract thought as entertainment? Knowledge as ornamentation?

(just questions, not attacks...why do i feel like i need to say that?)
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wesleyacarterposted 15 years ago
i never answered the question myself.

well i don't know what is true, but a question in my mind is...

if God didn't exist, why do people spend so much time talking about it?

i do believe there is God, but i don't think it is what many people think it is. A thing acting intentionally upon the universe, separate from it.

I think that God is our universe. Or at least, our universe is a part of God. so myself, my clothes, possessions, people, the earth, are all possessed and included within God, or at least a part of him.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  again that sounds like a great forum question to me.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i should start another forum, shouldn't I?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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getitriteposted 15 years ago
I believe there is NO GOD, because, clearly, mankind made all this crap up, and I just hate following the foolishness of mankind. Since God himself has never revealed anything to me, I will not be tricked by ignorant humankind. Deception is the oldest trick in nature.
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Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years ago
Me too wanna snuggle?
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Euryponposted 15 years ago
There is no objective, let alone scientific evidence for the existence of gods or invisible pink unicorns.

All gods are inventions by immature societies for unexplained phenomena.

The existence of higher forms of being cannot be excluded totally, however there is no direct evidence for them. Should they exist, it is doubtful that they intervene or even care about this plane existence.

Furthermore, organized religions, certainly those of the monotheistic variety, have proven to be the single most detrimental force in human history. They're nothing less than a plague upon humanity.

We should distrust all people who claim to speak in the name of one god or another. After all, how do they know what she wants (should she exist)?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well said.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i think it is very arrogant of us to think that God would be subject to something as fickle as scientific evidence. Is there scientific evidence for love? or just a set of psychological measurements of moot origin to explain attraction?
  
  gods, in the polytheistic sense, are the means for identifying natural phenomena. what is immature about this?
  
  i don't think religion is a plague, i think human deficiency in the form of tyranny and immoral character is the plague. religion is just a tool. like a hammer, it can be used to build or destroy, i think.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As a matter of fact there is scientific evidence for love, I just saw a lecture on it!
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  haha, it's crazy how some people NEED evidence for EVERYTHING. the fact that someone tried to scientifically prove love...that is bordering on psychosis.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, actually it is good science. Part of the brain's response to chemicals that affect behaviour. For example, if you gave a religionist MMDA, when the fear he thought he never had dissipates he will no longer need a religion!
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  define religionist.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You don't know what a religionist is? My definition? Any person who's god is the creator of the world is a religionist. My world was not created by your god ok? I am perfectly happy with the scientific explanations available to anyone who wants to know.That eliminates religionists.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  haha, if I knew what you meant by religionist I wouldn't have asked.
  
  -
  
  why do you assume i think my God created your world?
  
  -
  
  i think that you are obsessed with control. the fact that you think your personal opinions "eliminate religionists". that denotes a great amount of arrogance, overconfidence.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do not try to control anything, it is you who wish people to hand over control. Obvious!
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sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago
I do because it makes the atheists and liberals crazy! Sorry, Crazier!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You can't take credit for my craziness sneaker! All my own work.... and loving it!
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Allan Bogleposted 15 years ago
Pascal: All of our reasoning ends in surrender to feeling.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Allan I'd be very interested in your answer to the question. (WHY) I think Pascal and I are saying the same thing... I believe that logic gets us to where the proof ends, and faith takes it from there.
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  Allan Bogleposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus of course stated, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
  
  Since then all of us have struggled with belief or lack of it and we have taken various paths to it. I think though that we can roughly narrow the spectrum down as to what belief in God entails.
  
  Kierkegaard argued for a "leap to faith." He thought that there was not enough evidence to fully justify a deep commitment to a belief in God on its own, that one had to have faith to complete the journey in accepting that God exists. But he thought that faith and doubt were intertwined, "doubt is conquered by faith, just as it is faith which has brought doubt into the world". He struggled with this and with paradoxes that he thought he perceived when it came to faith in God, therefore his conclusion that this leap to faith must be taken to fully engage into a deep belief in God.
  
  Kierkegaard believed that doubt was an element of faith and that it was impossible to gain objective certainty about whether or not God exists. To Kierkegaard the only hope one whould have is the conclusion that it is probable that the Christian doctrines are true, but if a person were to believe such doctrines only to the degree they seemed likely to be true, he or she would not be genuinely religious at all.
  
  I do not necessarily agree with that but you see where he is going with this, faith was the key that allowed one to fully believe. Thus the "leap."
  
  Others like CS Lewis (and taken up by many of today's apologists) argued against this "leap of faith" by stating that within supernaturalism one can logically believe; inferred through a teleological argument regarding human reason. To him (and others) one could comfortably deduce through a logical process that God exists.
  
  So we have two systems of thought here: one argues that only through faith alone can we reach a justifiable and pragmatic belief in God, the other states that we can reach it through a logical process.
  
  Others like William Lane Craig argue that we can have overlapping lines of argument concerning evidence for God but stop short of claiming full evidential proof. His argument (and mine) is that we can show you it is more plausible to believe that not to.
  
  But in the end, it is Pascal's comment that probably has more to do with it that many realize. The decision to believe or not to believe comes down to an emotional one, we are driven by our inner core, a core that is based primarily on emotional bedrock. We simply feel it is the right thing to do.
  
  Most (but probably not all) of those who argue that they base everything on pure reason are mistaken and I think this can be true for both sides. When it comes down to it, it is what we deeply feel is correct, a decision that takes into account arguments we have heard, discussions with friends, what we encounter but also the experiences that we have.
  
  Take Mark for example, he states that one of the primary reasons for the way he believes (or should I say does not believe) is because of his experiences with hypocritical Christians and the way he as been treated. I do not doubt for a second that he has experienced some of this. So have I for that matter and I am a believer. He is probably more honest than most (thats why I never tag him for this, he has been quick to point out how he was treated).
  
  Is this always the sole "reason"? Does reason not also play a part in an individual who rejects or accepts belief in God? Of course but I suspect not to the degree many think it does. No one lives fully by reason (one look at the vehement arguments on these threads will provide enough evidence to support that argument).
  
  Look at this forum. Why are we really here typing away? None of us "discuss;" we "defend." Why? We identify the other side based on experiences we have in real life with those that are atheists or believers. Many are angry whether they admit or not. But that is ok. In the end that is the honest reason as to why they are here (not all but most I suspect).
  
  Even I fall into this trap of arguing for God's existence as if He had nothing to do but exist when the reality is that as a believer I must exercise and show more than that.
  
  So Pascal is right. One can argue "proofs" and one can submit, refine or attack arguments with an anchored ego in tow. But deep in the night, when alone, that is when our real self bubbles to the surface.
  
  Can I prove through evidential criteria alone that God exists. Nope. Neither can one disprove God through the same manner.
  
  In the end it is faith that carries me into a belief in God and what Christ has done for us.
  
  So we are not really arguing about whether we can prove or not prove the existence of God. We are arguing as to which is a more plausible action. Which in the end, shrinks down the argument to what we feel.
  
  In the end our reasoning surrenders to feeling...
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  Euryponposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's quite a confession you make there.
  
  You spent a lot of words, basically to say: I don't know, I have no dependable evidence, I know that there are logical fallacies in what I believe, but I feel it's the right thing to do.
  
  Color me totally unimpressed.
  
  Your reasoning may surrender to feeling, mine however does nothing of the kind. I know there is no evidence for the existence of gods or a god. I know what crimes religion has committed over the ages.
  
  My feelings are not involved in deciding whether there is a god or no. My mind is. But, indeed in your case it is your feelings that make you believe. Somehow you make it sound as if believing in computers is nobler than knowing how they work.
  
  I think you would be feeling that there are many gods if you were born in a Hindu family. You would be feeling the Koran is the word of a supreme being if you were born in an Arab family.
  
  Also, I am very much afraid that you would be feeling it was right to burn old ladies when the harvest was bad if you were born a few hundred years ago. That you would take the cross to wage a, blasphemously called holy, war against people who have done nothing to deserve this. That you would lay waste to their cities. That you would push stakes in the anus of the captives you made and roast them over an open fire. That you would take their year old babies by the legs and smash their heads to a pulp against a nearby wall. All because you would be feeling that your god wanted this.
  
  I am very much afraid of your feelings and your abdication of your mental faculties.
  
  Like an unknown wise man has said: Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the creator of human intelligence.
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  Allan Bogleposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am glad you posted this, it gives further support to my premise. Notice you state that your decision is not based on what you feel may be plausible. You state steadfastly that you KNOW there is no God. As I have never heard of any atheist philosopher or scientist claim that he KNOWS there is no God I must assume that you are in posession of evidential criteria that no one is aware of. We would love to hear it. Please put forth the evidence that there is no God, of course this will be scientifically testable and verifiable. Failure to provide this proof simply means that you base your decision on what you feel to be correct.
  
  Also I never stated nor implied that I had "logical fallacies in what I believed." But you would like for me to say that apparently, thus your sudden inclusion of that statement. Neither did I state I had "no dependable evidence." I find it odd that you would insist this is what I mean when I stated nothing of the sort. Further evidence of an emotional response as you certainly did not come to this conclusion through reason.
  
  Odd you should mention this as part of your belief that there is no God. What crimes have been committed have nothing to do with the existence of God. Maybe you missed the part in my post where I talk about how most atheists base their emotional decision on the actions of others who profess belief in God.
  
  No, you think it is PLAUSIBLE that there is no God. You certainly do not have one iota of evidential criteria that there is no God. Of course we will await your claim that you KNOW there is no God and the only way to claim this with authority is to present evidence.
  
  Kind of like I believe that as an atheist you will murder all those that disagree with you? Enver Hoxha (atheist) leader of Albania: atheist and mass murderer (among his many "distinctions" was to proudly proclaim his nation in 1967 to be the first atheist state in history and immediately start killing and imprisoning his own people for their beliefs). There has never been a regime that had atheism as policy that didnt indulge in mass murder (that is another thread).
  
  Do I think all atheists are mass murderers? No, not anymore than those who profess belief in God. However notice, as I claimed in my post, that atheists will use justification for the existence of God based on what they observe in some believers. even after reading my post you still did it. Their actions have nothing to do with the existence of God. So much for you using "reason."
  
  I am sure you feel that way. After all you are afraid, it is what you feel. You mention several times in this post how afraid you are.
  
  Reason:
  justification: an explanation or justification for something
  motive: a motive or cause for acting or thinking in a particular way
  cause that explains something: a cause that explains a particular phenomenon
  
  I feel that my reasoning is correct. You feel that your reason leads you otherwise. But make no mistake, there is no evidential criteria that there is no God and any claim to the contrary is simple delusion.
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  Euryponposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Strawman. I said there is no evidence for the existence of gods or a god.
  
  That's something entirely different. In an earlier post I said that the existence of higher beings couldn't be excluded.
  
  So, you accusing me of reading too much in your statements... let's just say that we are both guilty of that.
  
  Odd that, though I stated that my decisions are not emotionally based, you want to push me into an emotional corner. Also, again: strawman. I never said that this is why I don't believe in gods.
  
  I simply wanted to express my concern about people who make their decisions on what is true or not, right or wrong, based on "feelings".
  
  Again: strawman. I never said that the existence of a god or gods is totally impossible. I only said that I used my mind, not my "feelings" in deciding the question. With what I know, I come to the conclusion (see an earlier post) that there is no solid evidence for the existence of a god or gods.
  
  You misrepresent my position.
  
  Let's leave that discussion there then. It would lead us too far for me to try to refute this unfounded statement. Let me suffice with saying that the crime rate in countries where religion has no influence in policy and decision making and is not prominent in society is far lower than in countries where religion has a great influence.
  
  Again and again: strawman. You keep accusing me of positions I never took. I never said that this is why I don't believe in a god, nor do I think that all religious people are potential torturers and murderers. I simply gave an example of to what religious "feeling" without thinking can lead. I could have chosen 9/11 as my example as well.
  
  Again: I most certainly didn't use that example as a ground for not believing in a god. There is no solid evidence for a god and neither is there for invisible pink unicorns. I "believe" in neither.
  
  Come, come, let's not exaggerate: two times I used the word afraid. For effect, of course, and you know that. But then again: there is reason to be afraid of people who base important decisions that often concern other people on what they feel. History is riddled with examples of that.
  
  Strawman, anyone? I never said that I "felt" that my reason led me to certain conclusions. Feelings have nothing to do with it. I don't "feel" that my reason leads me to a certain conclusion. My reason, excluding my feelings, leads me to what I believe to be true. It also leads me to believe (with all due respect--this isn't to be taken personally) that your reasoning is not correct, but emotionally contaminated and hence flawed.
  
  You are perfectly right with your last statement, and I agree wholeheartedly, and that automatically makes the reverse true as well:
  
  Make no mistake, there is no evidential criteria that there is a god and any claim to the contrary is simple delusion.
  
  Which
  
  a) was my position all along, now confirmed by your good self,
  
  b) leads me to "not believe" in a god or any other mythical being. (I don't have to explain the difference between "believe" and "know", do I?)
  
  c) could almost be the title of a book.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Make no mistake, there is no evidential criteria that there is NOT a god and any claim to the contrary is simple delusion.
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  Allan Bogleposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think your initial assessment was correct. Maybe we are reading a bit more into the other's statements than we realize.
  
  Let us just say we disagree.
  
  Which leads back to my original statement. We differ on the application involved in there being a God. Even our application of reason is different and leads to different conclusions.
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  Euryponposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can live with that.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are mistaken. You are not "applying reason" - you are "attempting to justify an irrational belief."
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Look whose talking
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Are you going to follow me around demonstrating your ignorance of the English language all the time now Gardner?
  
  At least you gave me an idea for a new business venture - Dinosaur hunting trips in China. There has got to be some christian suckers up for that right? I will cut you in for a little of the action if you send me 100 names and addresses of people like you.
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  Allan Bogleposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I laughed when I saw that it was you that typed this.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think I Love You... Thank You for not disappointing, your answer is a work of art. Mikel
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
I do not believe in the existence of God but I do not believe in the non-existence of God.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
religious belief fits the diagnosis for psychosis.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well, denying religion religiously can be the same.
  
  i think it is perfectly logical for people to define objects and concepts through intuitive and spiritual thought processes.
  I think that displacing all your focus on religion instead of the inherent flaws of humanity is escaping the point.
  
  Bovine, you talk alot about what you DON'T believe. But what is it that you DO believe?
  
  believe - you probably already know i hate this word, but i am currently searching for a better one.
  
  maybe "think" will do.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What do I believe? Where would you like me to start?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Like a glove!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
@wesleycarter, you can find my beliefs on my profile for a start or the 2300 posts I have made on the forums
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i've been through your profile already. i am a follower Bovine. but one thing I find about you is you seem to be very morbid, more eager to debate or "argue" then approach with an open ear. ie. There is nothing you would NOT respond to.
  
  -
  
  many times you sound like you already know everything. what a blessing that must be. I'm sure you've seen Fight Club. There is a line said by Tyler Durden. "You're very clever. How's that going for you? Being clever." I can imagine someone saying this to you.
  
  -
  
  This is not an attack on you, just an observation. You have passion, and I admire that.
  
  -
  
  and you are side-stepping the question right now.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting observation Mr Carter. Some of my writing is morbid, yes. Me, am I morbid, no.
  
  I have seen dark places but I am alive and well.
  
  If you find me on the forums more eager to debate, well yes, they are discussion forums but without an open ear, no. I always have an open ear. If I kept my ears closed, how is it I could respond to ANYTHING. I do not know everything, I do not know what you are thinking. I am not god.
  
  Your imaginations about me and Tyler Durden, I like that, you make me smile. I have had similar remarks more than a few times. I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not. I will argue my point and I will agree to disagree.
  
  I never side step carter. I am always where I always am.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you seem addicted to always having the high ground. you seem to never be wrong, even when you admit you don't know everything.
  
  -
  
  and you know what i meant by "open ear".
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am not addicted to anything of the sort. If you consider my ground high, good for you. I am just who I am, perhaps my fortitude you confuse with high ground?
  
  I seem never to be wrong? These are your words. Thank you, I think. I do not know everything, I cannot Mr Carter. I cannot know you.
  
  Finally, I am sorry. I admit again, I do not know everything. What do you mean by open ear, sir?
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you are heavily fortified. i am the one who is confused, of course. but from this last response, something is slowly creeping into the cracks.
  
  -
  
  that sounds about right. do what you do, Bovine.
  
  -
  
  open ear - to listen/read without anticipation for response. but you already know that, and are ready to respond.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Born ready, Mr Carter.
  
  Do tell, what is it creeping (through?) into those cracks...
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  cracks? nothing specific. I would be diluting the intent of the statement by telling you how I interpret that. i was just loosely suggesting cracks, i would like to leave it to your interpretation, or non-interpretation. do with that question what you will.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  BOVINE, you are a beast man.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am a beast now?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Care to qualify that statement wesley or should I just laugh away at the imagined punchline?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All of us do with your questions what we will.
  I find them very 'interesting'
  You're all over the place! like a bug.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
I am still unsure whether I have answered this question of yours.

Tell me, what do you think I believe. Have I not given enough of myself already? You can be as specific as you like if you really want to know something about me.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
A reference to Kierkegaard, you are my true friend. Consider yourself followed.
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  Allan Bogleposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know Bovine, Kierkegaard is not everyone, I am sure you know this. He reaches a particular kind of person, one who has trouble relating to faith in God. He is the only one I have ever seen that tackled the "paradox" of Abraham and the proposed sacrifice of Issac.
  
  Say what you want but the guy was brutally honest. There are theologians who do not like him, there are some that do. Oddly enough you rarely hear of him within the church.
  
  I suspect because he is, for many, a difficult man to grasp...
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  All true Alan.
  
  Fear and trembling is on my shelf and I hold those words very close.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
Re: Kierkegaard and note this wesleycarter, you might like it;

I am a man of faith. In my own mind, god is real but out here in the world, my concept of god is nothing of the sort. I have no time for religion, no time for evolutionary science. I am a simple man at heart and I am safe in knowing that my personal ethos will remain just that. Religion will never go away and that is fine by me. I read the bible regularly, at times. In faith, I believe that Jesus Christ was a true prophet. A prophet of truth but no more the son of god than any other. I believe Abraham had a prophesy, he wanted a better life for his people. Like the spirit of Abraham was appropriated by a greater power, the power of power itself, Abraham and his spirit to escape subjugation, having served its course, it was usurped by a new ruler, then skip a few generations, Christ and Mohammed, similar in their wants for change, a similar spirit and a similar path. Such is the life of a prophet and the life of power. The meek will inheret the earth, so it says. There is nothing meek in the religions of our day.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Good, interesting and well reasoned post.
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  Euryponposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, kind sir.
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efeguyposted 15 years ago
i believe in GOD ,he has been there for me always.
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abdullah mehfoozposted 15 years ago
you are very hot
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abdullah mehfoozposted 15 years ago
replay me
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wudieposted 15 years ago
i believe that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence thus even if nobody can prove that God exists, nn prove that he doesnt so il believe that he exists
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  DogSiDaedposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you can supply factual evidence to not support the bible which is god's word, surely that's enough? Or at least it makes god a liar
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Or it makes the Bibles an imperfect tool, written by flawed human beings, with a flawed human beings ability to communicate. Though inspired by God, written by Humans. (What language do you think God thinks in?)
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theonegoodmanposted 15 years ago
I believe in God because I can observe the world and see how the good and just are downtrodden while the rich are filled with arrogance and delusions of grandeur. Without God, life in this world would be a cruel joke. But with him, and the belief in a coming messiah, the suffering masses will be vindicated and the haughty will be humbled.

If there was no God, there'd be no need for morality, or ethical conduct, or even society and laws. It would be chaos. There is some higher purpose in man.

There is a chinese saying, 'man cannot move an inch without divine assistance.'
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  Justine76posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  but, I thought it WAS a cruel joke...
  doesnt seem like a very good joke at any rate...
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  Sometimes the joke is Good. At least it makes me laugh a lot
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See?
  
  This is how they get you to roll over and play poor.
  
  It will all be OK after you are dead.
  
  This is christianity in a nutshell.
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  theonegoodmanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know what you are alluding to- slave morality ala Nietzsche. But we know that those who horde masses of wealth are usually the emptiest people. If you believe in God, and pray to him for success, you will get it, but a righteous man doesn't use his victories to attain, but rather to give to others.
  
  And by the way, I am a messianic jew not a christian. Not like there's much of a difference, however! And what I am saying about the messiah is that he will raise the dead vindicating those who suffered during this temporary life, and strike down the evil who did nothing but cruelty during their lives.
  
  I actually like the back and forth on these forums between God-believers and atheists. It's good clean fun!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and No, they use the ideology to get people to accept being poor, and they use it to comfort the poor (to give them hope in the later). {because we can't ALL be rich}...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who says we can't all be rich?
  
  And not being rich is not the same as being poor.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree not being rich isn't the same thing as being poor. Before we get the dictionaries out to define the meanings and classifications of what is rich, what is poor, and what is the middle class. Let me say this:
  I believe that the strength of the society of the United States is based on us always having a huge middle class. There aren't enough things for everyone to be 'rich'. Every citizen cannot have a million acre horse ranch... I believe in the middle class, the middle ground.
  I think a good and prospering society is one that has a vast middle class, very few poor, and very few rich.
  Middle class to me is having everything you need and some of what you want. The problems of medieval times were because of the abscense of a middle class, they had the 'Nobility' and 'Peasants'. The trouble in the economy of the United States right now is that the middle class has been decreased. We are becoming a two class nation. Those being, 'nobility (those with money)' and the 'peasants (those without money)'. There are some few very rich people that are hording all the money. They are making money off of simply having money, using interest on loans/investments to generate it. Those that didn't start off rich, live their entire lives in 'debt', paying to support the very wealthy. As this continues the wealthy get richer the poor get poorer until eventually, the society collapses. The most important people in the society of the United States are the middle class. (the tepid waters that seperate the Ice from Steam.)
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
'Without god there'd be no need for morality...ethical conduct, or even society and laws' ?

Really? It doesn't seem so obvious to me.
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  Justine76posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I though you'ld be over on the TRUTH thread.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
there is no messiah
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theonegoodmanposted 15 years ago
if you read religion and mythology, almost every culture believes in a messiah of some sort.

Judaism-Moschiach
Christianity- Jesus
Islam- also Jesus
Hinduism- Kalkin
Buddhism- the Matreya Buddha

even the kabbhalists refer to an 'time of the messiah' when there will be a gradual shift in concsciousness towards enlightenment.

Is all of human religious history a big hullabaloo? All these priests and scholars wasted their time? I doubt it, they must be on to something.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Answering your own question, a true believer.
  
  There is no messiah.
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  theonegoodmanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't have to be a literal return of Jesus and a raising of the dead, like artists imagine. When all people are enlightened and happy, that will be the time of the messiah. All the primitive religions and mythologies allude to this. Reincarnation is what allows good people to return to life, but we all know things get worse before they get better. All the chaos that is going on right now will be the popping of the cork before people realize it's time to get enlightened.
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Lady Guinevereposted 15 years ago
and it has nothing to do with money either.
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theonegoodmanposted 15 years ago
so you athiests live life without any restraint? Just do what you feel all the time? Life's a party! Whoo Hoo!

I enjoy life too, but I believe that there is a way to please God and to succeed and get what you want. Life is a game, you have to play by the rules.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have my own rules.
  something wrong with that ?
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  theonegoodmanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, we all have to die at some point. If you atheists are right, then we just decompose in the soil. But if there is God and reincarnation, then there is a reckoning for what you've done in your life. All I am saying is that you can play by any rules you want, but there is accountability for your actions. In any case, we all have to die sometime. That alone is enough to make me spiritual.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe in a God. But I believe in me. that's enough to make me spiritual.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You tell him babe.
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lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago
believe in who, what ?
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habeeposted 15 years ago
I believe in God and in Christ. I can't believe that all the wonders of the universe happened by accident. Why else would humans have a conscience? Animals don't have one. As far as Jesus is concerned, how did one man affect so many millions of people for 2,000 years? He wasn't a king, He wasn't widely traveled, He wasn't wealthy, and He never wrote a book. Those are my logical reasons for believing.

Otherwise, I believe because I "feel" God's comforting presence in my life, and once, I heard him actually speak to me directly.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
blah
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Lady Guinevereposted 15 years ago
First you need to understand what Re-Incarnation is and what it is not: http://hubpages.com/hub/Re-Incarnation- … -It-Is-Not
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
your god is not real. I am spiritual.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
bigotry and spiritualism? Not a good mix.
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visitmaniacposted 15 years ago
I can relate to that
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waynetposted 15 years ago
I don't believe in god because he/she is ridiculous to ever think that they own us in a god like fashion.

We shall be reaching the far corners of the galaxy in the near future and the God just sits there and lets us, what a dweeb!
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theonegoodmanposted 15 years ago
who's a bigot?

reincarnation is about the soul evolving in lifetime after lifetime until one reaches God-union. The kabhalists call God 'Ha Ein Sof' 'the endless', similar to the hindu concept of brahman.

God can be depicted as an omnipotent father figure with a white beard, or as the 'oversoul' that encompasses all that is living and nonliving.

And what does space exploration have to do with God? The human race is developing technologically. That has nothing to do with your soul or God. God doesn't live somewhere near andromeda, he's is within you and without you.
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  waynetposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  hahahahaha! amen! or rather god likes to ride around on a space craft with a wig that looks like an afro!!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well said.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cherry pickers.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
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blackorchidposted 15 years ago
I believe in something other than GOD, geez there's so many forums here about GOD, why?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good question. There are plenty of other forums, do not despair
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Sa Toyaposted 15 years ago
There always seem to be an atheists vs believers battle.

I believe in God and if you don't that's fine by me it's obviously fine with you.
I won't shove religion down your throat...ever...PERIOD, I will however answer questions if you have any.I won't assume every non believer is destined to hell as a true believer in God knows this is not our decision and we are not meant to judge.

I believe in God because believe it or not I used to see 'things' when I was little and praying helped.

I believe because of the miracles I've seen.

The problem is people confuse belief in God with religion. I don't. You can believe in God and have no religion. I have my own issues with religion. I find most people neck deep in their religion to be the the most hypocritical and judgemental people.

I was raised under a particular religion now that I'm grown...it's difficult to categorise myself as one that fully practices that particular religion.

BUT I'm a believer in God and am spiritual.

People can be spiritual even though they don't believe in God or any kind of God.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very Well Said. My Compliments.
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  habeeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My feelings, exactly, Sa Toya!
  reply report

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