I would say that 8 out of ten times when discussing proof of god with a theist, they quote the Bible. In my perspective, the Bible is the collection of claims about the christian god, not the evidence for it - and all claims require evidence if the desire is to convince someone else. If the Bible is proof of the christian god, by the same logic, shouldn't the Koran be proof of Allah? Yet Christians reject that logic in the case of Islam, while simultaneously using it themselves. Using the Bible to prove the Bible claims is circular logic, isn't it?
The word of God has a convincing power to it. This works both logically and emotionally. You both know and feel when you're reading the word of God. I know that many atheists know the bible very well and don't believe that it's true. The Holy Spirit speaks to us in a very subtle way. It's very easy to miss.
Quoting the bible also works as delivering the truth about Christianity. Atheists should read the Bible just so they have a correct knowledge of God according to the Bible. A lot of atheists deny God because they don't have a correct knowledge of who God is. You can't prove something to be right or wrong until you have a correct and complete knowledge of that thing. Christians should do the same for atheists. Get to know them and their beliefs. Many Christians don't have a correct understanding of atheists.
As a former Christian and collegiate theology student, your theory falls flat. The Bible seems to only be convincing to people who already believe it's true or suspect it might be. It is still not evidence. Not believing is not rejecting btw.
It seems that you have an incorrect understanding of atheists as well. I Lack a belief in any God. I do not reject them. You cannot reject something that you don't believe exists. I do not claim no gods exist.
Jay would not the breath of life be enough to convince people? May I ask why you are a former Christian? Believe me I know how hard it is to walk with God. What has driven you away from the relationship with God? It is clear you know the word.
The breath of life no more convinced me that the christian god exists than it convinced you that Allah exists. Or Zeus. Our life creating pixies. The argument from ignorance is not a convincing argument for any God.
Cynthia - forgive me for answering on JM behalf - you asked why she was a former chrisitian - taking the time to read her hubs (whether you agree or not), will provide you an answer that cannot be fit into 180odd characters.
JM It cannot be considered proof and would never be accepted in a court of law, as evidence of anything, especially the existence of a god. The Christian Old Testament, which was plagiarized from the Jewish Torah, which was plagiarized from multiple pagan mythologies rooted in the Babylonian and Sumerian cultures offers no proof. Credibility here is not served by the fact that the original books by the original author do not exist. The claim of writing of the Torah was around 1400 BCE, but the Jews were late in developing a written language and this did not happen until around 800 BCE. There seems to be a problem there. Too, The Jews did not originate a 'one god' concept. This was the Egyptian Pharoah Akhenaten (Son of Aten (God) and the god Aten. The New Testament is equally suspect, as there are no original texts, by the original authors and there is absolutely no evidence that anything was written at the time of these events or that the supposed authors, except possibly Mark, had the ability to write. The doctrine that is now Christianity came from the Council of Nicaea in 324 CE by order of the pagan Emperor Constantine, High Priest of Sol Invictus, which is why Christian go to church on Sunday, the day of the sun. The primary truths of Christianity, a god exists, virgin birth, the son of god, the resurrection, the trinity are all plagiarized from pagan mythologies rooted in Babylon and Marduk to the Egyptian stories of Osiris and Isis. Christians believe the bibles to be a truth because they want to. They, as all theists, require that belief that there is something that gives a purpose and meaning to their lives. They lack a belief in themselves and in Man. They are the Un-believers. If this belief serves to help them in the process of living a good life, then that is a good thing, but as often as not, it manifests itself in a dogma of a demand of adherence and abeyance that results in the horror of the Dark Ages and a nightmare called ISIS.
Jesus cannot be denied to be the originator of the Christianity. It takes a name that he bore when he was of the Earth, he was the only one that took the name Christ. If one can look deeply into the books of history, you cannot make a mistake of sayi
You're wrong. Much of the contents of the Tanakh was compiled by the men of the Great Assembly, put together in 200-250 BCE, a task completed, and canonized in 400-450 BCE, and has remained unchanged since that date. The pagans (All non-Jewish, Egypt
Is all history a lie? Of course You cannot prove any of history since it was written by humans. If not, how do you know this? Were you there? Did man make up history to make it more acceptable or are they all fairy tales? How do you know an apple fell on Isaac Newton's head? You cannot because you were not there. So, should we come to the conclusion that all who wrote about previous events are not credible.
You are correct JM. I was not there. My comment was what history can we know that is 100% accurate? None of us can. This is where my faith tells me that the Bible is the word of God. It is your right to disagree. You are entitled to your beliefs.
And I respect your faith, however, faith is not knowledge. Knowing something through faith cannot be demonstrated or proven, and there's no reason to accept another person's word for it or their interpretation. History is mostly probability.
History has multiple reference points to determine its validity. A volcano erupted 200 years ago? We werent there, but plenty of journals that were uncovered confirm that there was, as well as residue from the volcano. The bible is only one source.
Link - true. I'm sure there are true things in the bible - but we know they're true, not because they're in the Bible, but because they've been independently verified and tested. One truth, however, does not indicate truth on all of its claims.
You will not see any from me. I have seen the err of my words. Temper is a bad thing and must be controlled. With God's help, nothing but a good example for God from me. I suggest everyone come to this conclusion about their egos God bless
The first thing any history teacher will teach you is that all written history is biased depending upon who wrote it. History was written by those who won and religious texts are written by those seeking to convert others.
JM:I thought u had a personal vendetta against me but by ur writings u really feel this way! U will never "see" the works of the HS until u "humble urself" "believe" & have "faith" n the Word of God! If u were "terminal" I bet ur attiude would c
So you think I was dying, I would beg your God for forgiveness? That's not going to happen. I'm not afraid of your God or your hell, just like you're not afraid of any other god or hell. There's no proof for it.
JM: I never said u were dying! I said "IF" then u would try "anything!" Doesn't cost u anything - why not "TRY JESUS!" What if ur wrong & I'm right? U-eternal damnation - If I'm wrong Oh well, just rec'd all these earthly "benefits!"
JAG: I Jn 4:1 "I've tried the spirits!" HS only One with "benefits!" (Ps 103:2) JM: Satan uses every device to "debunk" but HS "knows his devices" (II Cor 2:11). There is no "fear" in Christ Jesus (I Jn 4:17-19) especially in "death" (II Cor 5:8)!
Pascals wager is the worst possible argument for any God as it applies to any God or belief system, and I don't fear your God any more than I fear Allah, Thor or Zeus, but I'm imagining you don't fear them either. I fear one less god than you.
JM: What questions have I not responded to? Maybe not what u wanted to hear, but I've responded? Scripture is all I have to offer! Anything else, foolishness! Sorry I called u lady! Just read ur bio! Christianity is a walk of "faith!" Not "proof"
The Pascal's wager has no mystical or retributive underlay. It's just pure and simple common sense that when you cannot come up with a definitive refutation of God's existence to restrain yourself from being adamant that he does not exist.
Pascals wager says it's better just to believe rather than to risk being wrong. But either a god exists or one doesn't. 50/50. If a god exists, there is less than 1% that you believe in the right one, among all proposed, and there is a cost.
Ben - if I spend a life, money and time worshiping a god that isn't there and this is the only life I have, I have wasted my one shot. If all gods are as jealous, petty and vindictive as the biblical one, and one is real, I'd be screwed too.
In addition, Ben, why is it not more logical to withhold belief until something can be proven true, not the other way around? Is a god not smart enough to know whose hedging their bets and who genuinely believes?
The guiding principle of the God I know is "to love your neighbors as yourself". Any religion that espouse a fundamental principle different from this is a perversion. Moreover, I don't see how loving your neighbors as yourself can cause any harm.
What if you spend your entire life worshiping yahweh and find out that Allah is the real god? You're going to hell, and your entire life would have been wasted praying to something that doesn't exist. Pascals wager is an appeal to fear. Not reason.
JM, when you have attained the level of refinement that capacitates you to love your neighbors as yourself, you are demonstrating the essence of God which is love. Therefore, the proof of God is found in the fruits produced by your words and action.
Until a dragon had been proven to exist or even proven probable, there is no need to disprove it. The rational position is to withhold belief in dragons until there is evidence for them. Kind of like you withholding belief in any other god.
Our human nature does not bend us toward doing the right thing, that is why laws are made. It's our God-like nature that gives us the ability to love, evidenced by our words and action. You may try, but you cannot change evidence to a claim.
But all you're doing is claiming that it's our God-like nature. That's not evidence. People all over the works with varying or no beliefs do good things for others. If it's evidence for your God, it's evidence for all of them, or none of them.
Evil doings are evidence of evil. Goodness is evidence of good. Proof is a problem for both. Life is evidence for both. The Bible reflects the problems both have with each other. Good and evil are proven time and time again. what of the marionette?
Murder is not always considered wrong, and you know it. There is war. There is capital punishment. There is self defense. Some cultures think cannibalism and human sacrifice is good. You don't get to judge what you don't like as evil.
The bible becomes proof for those who find a modicum of faith and apply it to seeking understanding.
When God finds that faith in one, He will reach out to bring the understanding, invite the recipient to enter a personal relationship with Him, and provide the proof by way of empowering them with the same authority that Yeshua was carrying.
When you see miracles happening, being a pedant over 'evidence' that some person demands becomes rather insignificant, when the God of all creation is available to receive your requests and action them in accord with His will, then forum style debates over jots and titels are worthless.
The Quran IS evidence of Allah, it's evidence that like so many others the enemy sought to deceive and confuse those who love God, into submitting themselves to him, Satan / Lucifer / The Enemy, the god of this world who seeks the destruction of all those who choose not to seek and find Jehovah, Yeshua and the Rauch HaKadesh, and instead seek personal intellect or corporate religiosity over personal relationship and Kingdom authority.
Your mistake was entering Churchianity for that theological 'education', those places are designed to kill real faith and replace it with inefficient doctrines of man if they cannot destroy the 'student'.
Try getting on your knees and asking the Rauch HaKadesh to come into your spirit again and restore your first love, or.... stay separated and keep asking these futile questions in an attempt to scratch that itch.
A broken spirit and a contrite heart He will NOT deny.
He obviously still loves you deeply and seeks your restoration to His presence, it's you who walked out, see if your heart has room for a restoration, I know His does.
So god apparently deems it worthy to tell people such as yourself to tell others not of the same faith that they are wrong, already knowing that they will not believe without any proof. I guess curing cancer is less important...
For once we are in the right place at the right time. I hope this is a trend. Christians need to have a voice. You people far outnumber the Christians on this site. This is why you swarm. To try and convince one another you are right.
Jt: What are the statistics and ratio of Christians to atheists on this site? Christians to people of other faiths? How do you collect your data? How was it tested and confirmed? Or is your bias just showing again?
Umm, ever think that I was out working as well? I replied within minutes because I had some time to myself, and then I went back to work. Get real Agua. As for the question, I dont begrudge anyone. I ask people to back up their claims. Never happens
Is asking questions, which is all aimee did, consisted bashing? All I did was point out that it was unreasonable to put time limits on the response of a perfect stranger and expecting them to somehow know it. Neither are bashing. No proof.
So is it fair to say that rather than you and Aqua happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, the two of you were ganging up on an atheist? Wouldn't that be your mo? Or is it a double standard for your "side"?
Yes.. it just so happens that I noticed agua and his "great" ideology and didn't see it fair that he was being bashed by you people. Give me ONE example where the Christians are bashing an atheist. It is always the other way around.
I consider the way you refer to atheists as "you people" as disrespectful. I consider the things you regularly say to many of us could be considered bashing. You call it defending your beliefs, but if an atheist does it, they're bashing you.
And again, why do you feel the need to debate about something that you do not believe in. Do you think you are going to convert Christians to not believe? All of you are wasting your time. God is real!
I talk about it because it's fun and I have a history in both theology and history, and I like the discussion. I'm not trying to deconvert anyone. Why do you argue? You're certainly not saving any souls here. You seem to enjoy baiting people.
So if your aim is not to convince anyone of the "truth" that you claim to have, why spend so much time arguing about it? You demand answers from us repeatedly, but you don't seem to be able to answer the same question - or stay on topic.
JT, the truth is you see the existence of atheists as bashing. You think you can get away with saying anything you want to us as "defending" what you believe in, but anything we say you consider "bashing" you personally. Its hypocrisy.
JM... Have you ever thought how many people you have influenced not to believe in God? Their blood is on your hands. As a Christian we are to spread the good news of Christ. Where does it say that an atheist must spread hate towards God?
you intentionally bait atheists looking for a fight and an opportunity to minimize and dehumanize us. I ask sincere questions because of a genuine interest to understand. There's the difference between us, and everyone can see it. Goodbye.
Have you ever considered that perhaps the reason people talk to you in a way you think is "bashing" is directly related to the way you talk to them?. You reap what you sew, JT. It's sad that you can't see or recognize that. I feel sorry for you.
I'm done with you, JT. AS you've recently stated - on your questions, you can delete whomever and whatever you want. Well, this is my question, and I would rather talk to a genuine person than one who just wants to play games. Goodbye.
Calling someone out on their BS, which consists of telling people they are wrong but their lives are worse (aka pathetic) compared to his is considered ganging up. Yet when 2 others join to agree with him and not contribute anything, its not. Lol
Link- I would strongly advise you to just ignore him. He lives for the argument and trying bait people into getting banned. Let him think whatever he wants, eventually he will get bored taking to himself. I don't care what he thinks about me.
Oh I realized that weeks ago. I enjoy how he backs himself into corners, cries how people are attacking him, then vanishes and/or deletes his questions so you cant see the comments anymore. That's why I started taking snapshots
Link, if all he can criticize is the spell check on my phone attempting to get a reaction, it's him that looks bad, not me. He even argues with other Christians who disagree with him. I think he just wants attention. He won't get mine.
Link - duh. Want a really good laugh? In a comment I deleted since it was unrelated, he voted for the Mormon as the best answer. Should have saved that one for posterity, but it made me chuckle to see a fundamentalist root for a Mormon.
Aime, I will do a hub on that subject, on my drive to work I was given lots of info to include, BUT I work in a very intense workplace, and concentrate 8 hours a day, so I'm worn out most nights, but I will do it, and post to you when done.
I want to say for the record that I don't find JT to be condescending or belittling. He speaks the truth. I think some OTHER people are the ones spewing the hate and they just don't realize it. Leave JT alone!
Lybrah, you dont understand the most basic of things when you read them, or even when they are explained to you in the simplest way possible, so I can see how you would think that. We will just ignore that JT jumped into the conversation I guess.
Sure, lybrah, and it's just a coincidence that you two happen to agree. Telling people how they truly feel or what they truly think is insulting. Admitting he behaves badly would mean admitting you do as well. Can't have honesty, clearly.
God is the reason for our existence. You have to have a relationship with him. The Bible is how we know God and his ways of doing things, his attributes. you can't say you know anyone if you don't spend time with them..
She can make those 'assumptions' because she (or he) has found the faith that leads to the proof, you just cannot accept that, but it's YOU who need to prove the bible is NOT proof of God, as YOU are making the allegation (believers know the truth)
So if I found faith that led to me believing that space dragons exist and told you as such without any proof would you believe me? I would imagine not so wouldnt it be crazy for me to demand proof from you that they dont when I haven't proved it yet?
According to scripture, Ezekiel tells us to warn the wicked. If someone is following the doctrine of man instead of God, they must be warned. see Ezekiel 3 AS was not acting superior, you just feel inferior
I would like to answer your question through human mind, ideas, theories and what they call logic. I cannot deny the correctness of koran or any other book of religion, but i would want to give undeniable proof that the bible can give answer to all questions and solution to all problems. Alexander the great slaughtered all the Jews in 70 AD. Today he is just memories that are so far that our current generations know nothing about him at all.
Adolf Hitler came with a mighty thud such that all that heard of him shook to their roots. Today, his name is used just as a proverb where even those who use it have no idea what he did.
Mussolini was a mighty man of those days, today he is hardly remembered even in his own country.
Issac Newton, said that there is nothing like God when he was writing his Newtonic laws, at his deathbed, he said God is there and is real.
Albert Eisteigh, who came up with the law of relativity summarized his wise words by saying that there is unexplainable super power. All that have devoted their lives to live a religious life have died rejoicing , though they could have lived sorrowful lives. History can be easily forgotten if it was just effort of men, but the supernatural 'God related' remain in human minds forever
God is there according to the happenings of nature Whatever people may call him. Whether Allah, Jehovah, Jesus he is the same. The only proof that i can give you of his true religion is where he manifests himself to men that he is among them. This is not by men struggling to do according to their religion but his showing that he works among them.
None of that is proof that the Bible is actually true. As a master's degree seeking history major, I don't need to be taught history. Also, historical anecdotes are not evidence of anything other than anecdotes, especially when untrue.
murtiri--My academic background is in Political and religious philosophy so I may be wrong here, but I think Alexander the Great lived 300 years earlier and was Greek, not Roman, Are you thinking of the Roman Procurator Alexander?
JM:"Three in 4 in U.S. see the Bible as the Word of God!"gallup.com 06/14Why would so many believe in "a book" for such an extended period of time, if they have no personal proof? "Something" must have occurred in their lives for them to believe?
One has to wonder how many of those people have actually read the bible front to back, rather than have the good parts spoon fed to them by their church. Seems to be a lot of former Christians that became atheists/other after doing so.
It's called an appeal to popularity, and it's a logical fallacy. In the middle east, 99.9% see the Koran as the word of god. By your logic, they must be right, too. Being told something is true is not a good reason to believe it.
Jag: All "good parts!" II Tim 3:16. Not "Cinderella" must read n the Spirit! Jn 4:24.Believing not looking for proof or factsJM: They're being prepared! Look at TBN moving into Middle East now! "...and then shall the end come!" Matt 24:14. Be ready!
JM: Matt 16:28;Mk 9:1; Lk 9:27: "...til they see the kingdom of God! Spiritual death! Everything in Scripture should be read in the Spirit! Again I tell you, John 4:24! Religion has not taught this! Start over & read Scripture "In the Spirit
Norine, I can almost guarantee that I've read Scripture more times and in the original languages more times than you have. Again, saying that your interpretation is the spirit doesn't make it true. Your thoughts disagree with almost all I've met
JM: U display interest so HS found you! Ur right Gal 1:6!Man didn't teach me this!Not what I was taught either, but it makes sense if "worshiping in the Spirit!" I'm sure u have read n more languages than I! Too much kills! II Cor 3:6 SD:Jn 21:22
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. You're typing electronically in the Internet. What made that possible? Knowledge. Learning. Too much wisdom never hanged anything, but ignorance sure does.
If you agree that ignorance harms, why are you so opposed to knowledge, learning and education? Did you just not like the facts they were teaching you about Christian beliefs and history? Do you go to a doctor when you're sick? Why?
JM: I'm not opposed to knowledge, lrning, or ed that's why I began Masters in Theology, but they taught "religion" which I opposed! Found Holy Spirit is much better Teacher! Look at what He's taught me! U've never heard of It before & you have e
Oh, I've heard it before - always from people with no background in history or knowledge of how Christianity & the Bible began who somehow arrogantly assume that after 2000 years, they're the only ones who are right And disagree with everyone.
JM: I'm growing! Increasing in grace! That's why "unheard of!" Holy Spirit "teaches" and those that do not have a relationship with Him, but can only look at history and/or facts will "NEVER" understand!
Ponce: Don't confuse "truth in the Word" w/pride (Heb 4:12)! Boldness v pride(Acts 4:31, Prov 28:1)! History/Facts=Prov 3:5-6! I only state facts from script & if not=foolishness! U call it pride, I call It the Word of God! W/O relationship=Nothi
I went into much more detail in one of Graceinus Hubs about the value of inner experience. Too tired for more now, but yes, without this we are simply talking and posing theories. There is a world of difference between embodying the Light and talking about the Light. They are different things and far apart. Perhaps this supports your arguments.
However, we should not exclude books. Everything helps in a world of 'seeming' sadness and much pain. Scriptures grant us solace for this reason and points us to avenues of help that we ourselves need to unlock. You seem to know this. Peace, Bro.
Amen! One "must" embody the "Light!" Too much knowledge makes the "flesh" doubt! Remove self (flesh) and one might "see!" That's exactly why I stopped working on my Master's Degree in Theology - did not want man's thinking interfering with my belief
i think it depends on the topic. Area's i think its logical to use the bible are when someone else quotes the bible and asks you to explain it, when a quality or action of our specific God is in question, when another character in the bible is in question, or when asked how it correlates with real life and/or historical/archaeological finds. basically when its the direct thing in question, i think its ok to use it. then there are moments such as scientific questions or even proving to an unbeliever that god exists. you cant just say god exists because the bible says.
Many years ago, there were a lot of writers . They all used to write diaries of people and events. If you visit any church . They have bible study. You can find the truth of past events. It is like being an archeologist finding awnsers.The bible make sense because all the stories in the bible conect to each other.I belive in God. I hope you find the correct awnsers.
Having a book that contains stories do not make the stories within that book true. All of the stories in the Harry Potter series connect to each other, and they make sense, but it doesn't make them true or factual.
JM, be reasonable with whom you talk to. Believers have faith, you do not. so from their perspective it is truth. Your method is truth is not shared by them. Why do you have to force your standard on them when they are content and happy?
There are hidden mysteries in the Jewish Tanakh, they aren't just stories. You have to become spiritual to understand them. Harry Potter was written knowing the end of the story. That's not true of the bible. Why do you care anyway?
Julie, you are right, but the Bible is a book with power that not only connect the fact but it can transform life. Do you believe you came from your parents? And do you believe your parents came from stories or theories?
Your comments are no doubt true in the US but in Britain, Christianity has moved more with the times and most would acknowledge that many of the stories in the bible would not be acceptable and nor would we want them to be today. The difference between the Bible and the Quran in my mind is that the Bible tells tales which are meant to convey a moral, albeit often a screwed up one for modern times. The Quran however reads much more like a guide for how to live one's life, it is very specific in terms of how one is to behave in their day to day lives and has less room for interpretation. As an atheist I can accept believers taking a historical story which has a moral root and accepting that as the actions of a higher being, although personally I prefer to have faith in mankind. I struggle with the idea of a God who took the time to detail how a person should disperse of their belongings upon death. It seems rather materialistic for a God. It might not be true in America but in Britain Christianity is no longer primarily about blindly following a rule book. Don't get me wrong, we do have a few of that type too but blind faith is difficult to argue with. I'm not sure I've actually answered the question so yes that would be the definition of a circular argument, but it's an interesting discussion point.
The Bible is the only true word of God. It is hard for people who don't walk with the Lord to understand it. I believe that when a person opens his or her heart to receive the wisdom of the Lord then and only then will that person's eyes be opened to receive what is so clear to those who have a relationship with God. Try asking God to reveal his word to you in ways that you have not known. As far as Allah and the Koran - the Koran has just enough excerpts from the Bible to give people something to believe in. The rest of the Koran is man made and offers a false hope of worthiness. I am not sure why people are relegated to try to disprove the Bible when it preaches a life of love, humility, and selflessness none of which cause harm to anyone. The selfish nature of man is what drives the conflict in man to go against any teaching that requires selflessness.
I don't think you understand, Cynthia. We don't have to disprove the Bible. It hasn't been proven. Until something is proven, disproving it is unnecessary, kind of like God. The burden of proof rests with believers that claim absolute truth
JMcFarland: Read what is said in Bible regarding the signs in the sky & watch the sky! Have you seen the blood moon recently? Read what it says about wars. Is it not true? How could "man" know these things over 2000 yrs ago? Only God thru p
JM: Joel prophesied! First happened on Passover! Who wrote about before Blue Moons before Joel's prophesy? Jesus IS "I AM!" How would "man" have known prior to Joel's prophesy? Come on now! Here's just one proof! Oh ye of little faith!
Because, Norine, you have not provided one single shred of proof for your claims, you've just made more claims, and I have no interest in doing your homework when you cannot. Secondly, mine are provable, verifiable facts - not beliefs.
JM: I have proof of my beliefs - "Benefits=personal facts!" This is a "personal Spiritual journey" which reqs belief! I'm not interested in history fm MAN (Num 23:19), that seems to be ur concern so I need not do HW! Prov 3:5-6
No, you say that you have proof and claim that your beliefs are true, neither of which constitute facts or proof. People from all religions claim benefits. Are all those beliefs true too? If so, then you're NOT correct in your assertion.
I John 4:1-5 I've tried the spirits and Jesus works for me! If Atheism works for you, so be it! I've tried to explain but it appears you have been given over to "a reprobate mind!" Rm 1:28. Why must u seek facts or proof? Prov 3:5-6 First Step!
JM: Fm ur writings you "...do not like to retain God in your knowledge..."which Scripture says is a "reprobate mind!" Tried different denominations/religions! All kinds of spirits out there! Jag: School of the Holy Spirit/Jesus! Man lies! Num 23:19
I've seen your responses to people's questions, JMcFarland, and I see what you're looking for: You want proof that EVERYTHING in the Bible is true. As a true Christian and one of a scientific mind, I can say there is no way to prove every story in the Bible is true, and that's the purpose of BELIEVING buddy. You don't know everything in it is true, but you believe it is (or at least symbolic of something else). The point of Christianity is having faith in something other than yourself, in knowing you can get far in this life, but just like every other monkey, ant, rodent, or roach, we will all die, and no amount of knowledge you have, or money, or people, will change that. No one on this planet is even close to God, and no one ever will be. We are nothing more than a tiny specks of stardust on the grand scale of the cosmos. A meteorite or a sailing, celestial body (there are planets that just float around space at 1,000s of mps) could hit the Earth today and wipe out everything we know and love (and the government, or even the top scientist in the world, wouldn't tell you anything about it, to reduce panic of course), making everything we've given to future generations pointless. Pretty grim look at things, but humans in the grand scheme of God, of the cosmos are nothing. Faith teaches people their place in the world, and humility to understand how precious life is, and that time is better well spent hugging one's family instead of stomping shadows in the dark that LOOK scary. Not pointing any elbows, jus' sayin'.
The bible is proof. It is a written document that exists. (now do not get that confused with "It proves God exists".) A bullet does not prove that someone was shot with a gun. Even if it is found inside the victim. It is proof that a bullet was found inside the victim. People get way too confused on that issue. The bible can and is used in a court of law as proof. It can be proof of many things. It can be proof of what someone believes. It can be proof that many people believe in it. Shucks it could have a bullet hole in it and was carried by our victim above and is further proof he was shot. So your question is a definite YES the Bible can be proof.
Can it be proof of the existence of God? Yes and it is very very weak proof with more holes than a sieve or screen door. But there is evidence that it was written and when it was written and it can be the basis for proving a belief. A man takes the stand and swears there is a God. He offers the Bible of proof of his belief. That is really a worthless piece of truth to most triers of fact but not all. We believe that Pluto exists. It is really lousy proof that it is a planet or exists actually today. But by seeing the object in space we believe it is there today. The sun "came up" yesterday is good proof that it will come up tomorrow --- WRONG. It is proof but it is bad proof and I do not believe it will come up tomorrow because it came up today -- but most people think that is good logic. So it is proof. Scientific proof is better because it is more concrete. I like it better. But it is not the only proof in town. Circumstantial evidence can be proof out here in the human world. Coincidence can lead to a proof of something wrong. But the proof may be there. Life is not all tidy. Proof to me may not be proof to you. Yet we can both be valid. Lipstick on the collar of my shirt is proof of an affair, unless you knew that my wife kissed me good bye this morning. The Bible is proof of God but does not prove God and is not proof in a scientific sense that everyone must accept. 20 billion people could all have been or are currently wrong. But they may not be.
Someone testified to that portion of the Bible. There are a lot of reasons to disbelieve that account, but also many to believe it. Geography looks right and the timing is right. And the occurence of leaving Egypt looks right.
Eric--What 20 billion people? This claim speaks well to the rest of your position. Do you really think a bible (which one) would be accepted in a court of law to validate the existence of a god and which one?
I, actually, am with you on this one. I have seen so many discrepancies and contradictions that I often wonder the same thing. It is stories written by people who are telling their version of an "event". I wonder how differently it would be if someone else wrote those same occurrences down. My dad, who was raised devout Roman Catholic, has said many times that it is nothing but a history book reliving certain events of a time before what we all know. I have always viewed it as such, and do not necessarily take it word for word at face value. Don't get me wrong, I go to church and have my beliefs, but I do not always agree with what is being said. I feel church is a way for me to express my emotions, have some thinking/meditation time, sing and dance (worship) how I want, but that does not mean I take everything as someone else. So many people interpret the Bible as a way of life, and conform each verse to fit their specific situation, but if you try reading it straight through, without interpreting it in any way, or thinking too much about it, you will find that you are reading a story book, much like what you would read to a child at bedtime. I guess it becomes a matter of what we want to believe took place all those years ago in history, just like if we were to read about the Civil War, the Holocaust, Amelia Earhart, etc. Since we did not exist during this time, or during any of the above mentioned events, we have to determine for ourselves what about the history is real and what is not.
To a critical thinking there is NO evidence in the Bible. To the critical thinker the process in which the any great book came about will be problematic. If you approach to any of the great books with that expectation then you will easily conclude the origins do not stand up to the standard you are using. To many passing the litmus test your using is a requirement. In my humble opinion there are plenty of very helpful lessons of life and stories that help you relate to others. In time everyone learns the value of relating to others is a key element of success. I would also suggest if you were to approach a Bible with a healthy mix of academic and entertainment value you will come away richer in both particularly when comparing the return of your time investment to the many other available forms of entertainment that are not typically not nearly as nutrient rich for your mind.
It is hard not to perceive your post as an inquiry with an intent to cast doubt into believers and "help them" see their error. All claims do not require evidence. A faith does not require your evidence because then it would be undisputable fact. Religions, faith, and spirituality are not factual evidence by the scientific method you want to apply, but it is evidential to many or sufficiently useful and comforting. Humans are inherently emotional and these books help a great many deal with their emotions and provide helpful reference of good life. Also keep in mind many scientific fact at various points in time have turned out to be wrong due to our lack of understanding at the time.
Lastly, where is the question mark in your title? How can you raise a question without proper punctuation?
When that claim is said to be absolute fact is when it requires evidence. If I said space dragons exist as fact, would you believe it with no proof? Also, you do realize the wording of a question is more important than the ending punctuation right?
Wrong about what, exactly? Plenty of Christians proclaim that their faiths are true here on hub pages without ever backing it up. In fact, a few of them are here on this thread. But I am wrong it seems...
Link10103. Writing a question without question mark is wrong. I must apologize first because I thought your comment was from JMcFarland and I was saying he was wrong to ask a question without a question mark. Secondly people do not have to prove
Christians have no obligation to prove to you what is to self evident to them. Religion and spirituality is a person truth you are asking for scientific proof. Are we all created equal. No we are not, can someone have perceptions you lack? Why not
A theist has every obligation to prove what they believe to be true when they deny the validity of other religions and assert that they have divine knowledge. If it's simply "I believe this", then no they do not have an obligation at all.
So your saying a person I love is true, but I can not comment on other peoples love or have an opinion and say your relationship with your wife is not true because I have to prove to you my love for my wife it Valid first and foremost?
I want the people claiming that their god is true and those who don't follow said god will regret it to actually provide some evidence that that is accurate. Otherwise it's only a bunch of BS being imposed upon others. And no, i dont secretly believe
You already know these is no proof by the standard you seek, yet you keep asking. The very nature of faith is quite personal. How is it "imposed upon you and others?" By your parents making you go to church? Does any salesperson impose BS on you?
You are ignoring key questions. You said people "impose things on you" yet fail to support your claim. You say it is "BS" when I have been very clear it is "Truth to them" and you can conclude it is BS because it doesn't pass your test, fine Whoopi
I was addressing your other comment first. Its BS because it cannot pass any test to prove its validity. Its BS because it instills fear in small children that lasts until adulthood. Its BS because it's used to cement power and control over others.
Your conclusions: 1-Not valid for you so can't be valid for anyone. 2-Speculative, no facts. 3-As if other models are clearly better? Everyone is happy if your on the right side of authority. Again, explain how it "Impose things on you" so far FAIL
There is separation of church and state. You are not in a monarchy. Everyone has a voice due to Dem/Repb there are plenty of wrong thinking people and it is not just because of their religion. Stereo type much?
Link, your representing very poorly for the atheist cause. Agua is showing wisdom, providing basic facts, and respectful discord. We are approaching the 8th hole and you sir on third base. My Atheist friends are going to scratch their heads.
Link10103, in the first place you can ignore anyone who tries to impose his religious belief on you. He can do nothing to you. Secondly, because of the limit on comments, I will post my response to your demand for the proof of God.
Link you are IMPOSING ON ME things that are false, made up, illogical and made up. Are you going to start telling me Space Dragons exist? You are being delusional and making things up that are not based in fact. Stop pestering others 4 their faith
In itself the bible does not prove that God exists. It is a road map built around the precept, "treat others as you would want to be treated". This precept spiritually takes you to a place where you receive revelations that are translated into personal experiences in your life as proof of God's existence. Unlike a scientific theory that can be proved in a laboratory, the proof of God comes to you through revelation and personal experience. Consequently, each person would find his or her own proof of God through personal experience. Not surprisingly, there are people who would never have that experience because they would not "treat others as they would want to be treated". Again, the bible is not a proof in itself, it's a means to the proof of God's existence.
I was echoing statements to Agua and Link. No one said you had to believe or ignore. Those are not the only choices available. I am confused about your pester comment since I have seen plenty people from either camp pester people inappropriately.
One proof of a Creator is nature. Most living creatures have most things in common, one exception is that man speaks words, has reasoning power, and knows within God exists, but just because we don’t understand them doesn’t mean animals don’t communicate.
If we all came about by accident, we would not have so much in common. i.e. children come about by reproduction, we all eat, and digest food the same way etc.
Everything runs in cycles, over, and over. The bible lists how things came about in nature
I agree that we all evolve through natural selection..but we had to have come from somewhere before all that began.
A lot of stuff in the bible was known before modern man even knew.
They knew the Earth was round (a circle is the same as round) And knew the sky circled us Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Although they didn’t call it gravity, they knew the Earth was suspended in midair
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
But God wasn’t meant to be proven, but found by each individual
I believe the reason the bible is riddled with contradictions is because it was written along the lines of a psychic reader. Throwing of a bunch of information until it hits something you feel a connection with. A circle is not he same as a sphere.
Amen Brad! Rad: The reason the bible has contradictions to u is bcuz you must read "in spirit & in truth" by faith! Believing & having "faith" in the Word of God, seeking "truth" with a "pure heart" is key to "revelation!" John 4:22-24; 14:2
...and we go around the same circle once again. Ultimately, the "proof" of the pudding will be in the eating. We will discover the validity of the Bible (or any other religious belief structure) at the time we die.
I, for one, would not want to find out too late that I didn't believe because there was not enough "proof". Eternity is a loooooong time to get it wrong.
Once again using an appeal to emotion or fear. Realistically speaking, if the Bible is the only evidence available, then admittedly the god described within it is the worst communicator imaginable, to the point of incompetence.
There are probably hundreds of different versions of hell from all the other gods that are thought to exist. Technically speaking, if you believe in god you have even less of a chance of being right than an atheist does at being wrong
I dont really care. I am not sure why fear is a factor here for an all loving god. It seems you are equally willing to chance angering a god who might exist/be more powerful than yours because you were too scared to consider possibilities.
Demanding proof of God is a tactic often used by atheists, yet denying the nature of God. They won't accept that the nature of an answer should be congruent with the nature of the question. Thus, God being a spirit, only a spiritual answer would do.
The new thing for Link is "the fear of God". In biblical time 'fear' meant 'respect', similar to the respect for your earthly father. In your life time have you heard of a person killed because he didn't obey God? You don't have to fear God.
Link, you must be a mind reader. How would you know that somebody is afraid when the person has not told you he is afraid? You are assuming the person is afraid because of your preconceived notion of God. Is that right?
Probably because I can read Ben. There isn't much wiggle room if I take that comment as face value, but if I am wrong then Pet is more than welcome to correct me if he comes back. Otherwise, fear is exactly what is implied.
If you believe the Scriptures, keep this one Scripture in mind! John 16:13 says, "Nevertheless, when he (the Comforter or the Holy Spirit (Jn.14:26), the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME." Isn't that Awesome! So no matter how many times man changes the bible (or what it really is - The Scriptures), the Holy Spirit WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH! Thank you Jesus!
The truth is that evil is winning, and good is losing. It started in the Garden with God not watching out for Adam and Eve. Would anyone set two children loose when there was evil around? Neither God, Jesus, HS or a Guardian Angel didn't help them.
Satan can't win according to Scripture! Bcuz God is a Jealous God & wants ppl to worship only Him! Yes, He helped them by going to the cross & giving them a choice. He went into grave & preached to them too! Disobedience=consequences!
Eric: Matt 22:37-38;Lk 10:27; Mk 12:30 (NT but still under law)! If to "love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart..." was the first & greatest comm, must be jealous! If filled with the Holy Spirit, you will do this & won't want to do anything
Eric, half right more than one but OT Ex34:14 Deu6:15 Ex20:5 After Christ we no longer run after other gods? There are as many gods as ever out there. We believe Christ is the answer but many don't. The OT is not done away with, it is still His word.
At work, most of my colleagues enjoy sports while I do not. They talk about it all the time as if it had some relevance, and while their words will never be proof to me that sports are note worthy in any way, it is still solid evidence of what they pay attention to and why; where they've been and what they're all about.
If 100 people see something in the sky they consider to be a UFO, but no one takes a picture, still, with all their concert, I must admit that their communication is evidence that they saw something.
When it comes to any old text, I think we are all bright enough to realize there will not be any photographic evidence. We can choose to dismiss something out of hand, or we can try to put the clues into some semblance of meaning. It is up to us, and since that is true, 'proof' or 'no proof' will always be subjective -- and thus: someone's bone of contention.
What you are saying would make perfect sense if anyone was denying that the Bible existed, but no one is. Without corroborating evidence and independent verification, however, there is no way to know whether or not what it says is actually true
The bibleS cannot be self authenticated. The bible, like WWI didn't start our as the Old Testament, it only became the Old when a New Testament was written.
The Old Testament had forty authors and it took about a thousand years to complete. The New Testament also had multiple authors and it never really took off until the printing press was invented.
Also quoting passages from a two thousand year old story is very outdated, as we are different people in different times.
In that time frame, there should have been an update. Mohammad tried it by replacing Jesus as a prophet. He really didn't see the future because he didn't select a successor, and that is why the Muslims sects fight and kill each other.
It transformed, moved and controlled life. The proof is invisible by faith. Faith is seeing or knowing the unseen. You don't need to see the proof if all men were blind. Faith have eyes to see the reality.
Using the bible to prove the bible is absolutely circular logic, well said. I'm shocked that people are still committed to their attempt to convince theists that their biblical views are ill-founded. That being said, I am proud to be one of them, and glad for those on my team. People who have been indoctrinated as a child have a very hard time accepting ideals other than those given to them as their brain was in its most plastic developmental stage. For those lacking formal education, its even harder. My favorite shortcut when confronted about theism (and atheism) is illustrated in an example. For a christian, ask "do you believe in Allah?" (they say no). "Do you believe in Zeus, Neptune, or Rah? Good me either. The only reason we are even having this conversation is because I believe in one less god than you do." Seems to work well for Bill Mahr, Richard Dawkins, and Lawrence Krauss.
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