Without using the bible, nature or any of the other "normal rants" seen around HP.
Please explain what it is that allows your personal belief in God or what is it that you use as your proof.
I am not picking or looking for arguments...I am curious as to why you believe the way you do and what it is that gives you your undeniable proof of God.
Actual voice or more of a "guiding" or "feeling"?
There are people who are supposed to have what is known as "audiovoyance".
I know that I can hear the 60hz electric running through certain things if the shielding is failing.
I am curious if it is something like that or more of "your concience" speaking to you?
EDIT* Sorry forgot to add, Thank you for your post.
Have you saw a psychiatrist, hearing voices its not a good thing...
Logic. There is no other logical answer. God must exist, logically. I also know He exists because I have a personal relationship with Him, through His Son, Jesus. Atheism is absurd logically. I'm not going to argue either. That's my answer. If you want more logic, go look up Dr. Craig on youtube. He is probably the top christian, philosophical apologist alive today.
Awww but ranting is my middle name!
Simply put. I experience.
Even if I didn't believe in God my experience tends to invalidate what I might be choosing to believe at any given moment.
There are no adequate words to describe the different experiences. Any attempt will fail more often than not. Like most other peoples experiences of God already written about it...they can send a 'perceiver' into an altogether different direction.
You are not the first to speak of experiences...I often wonder...If these experiences we feel or have are in fact something natural that all people have. And some equate it to God or "religiously spiritual" because that is what we have been taught or understand. While others relate it to something different because they have (for them) found that God cannot exist, so that it must be something of the human nature.
DoubleScorpion. i will answer your question, but i will not respond to those who wish only to debate. i have no need to prove to anyone anything. my beliefs are as valid to me as anyone elses are to them and i do not insist anyone else accepts my beliefs.
as for your question. when i was 3 i died. i was brought back, but almost to late. but while i was dead, i experienced...a vision, whatever you want to call it...JESUS met me and took me up onto HIS lap. HE told me it was not my time yet and I could not stay, i had to go back. there is more but that is the important part. that experience...a spiritual experience that transcends the physical world, stayed with me all my life and influenced me. my relationship with GOD did not stop there. HE watched over me, protecting me from many dangers. including keeping me from drowning twice in one day (i was a foolish child who loved adventure...perhaps to much) by causing me to breathe water. when i was old enough to understand, HE began teaching me. HE has guided my footsteps my whole life. I didnt learn about GOD through the Holy Bible...I learned about the Holy Bible through GOD. what I know about GOD most christians deny to be truth. I have been called a member of a cult religion, though i am member of no organized religion at all...GOD is my religion.
NO!!! Well, there is no other way to explain all the bad luck I am having so there must be a God :p
Well. you know what they say...If it wasn't for bad luck...some people wouldn't have any luck at all.
We have a hurricane coming through my area. So if I don't respond for awhile that would be why.
I believe in God, a creator, what ever you may call it. He has many different names to many different people.
Where there is a design---There is a designer.
I have faith that there is a God.
The proof I have is my life and yours and everone and everything around us
I'm not a fanatic, but I believe there is something more than just us here and nothing more.
Yes I saw the sort of proof you operate under. Received any mail yet?
Oh come on Earnest, I'm sure she has her reasons for believing. Besides, doublescorpion was merely asking everyone why they choose to believe in god, and she was just answering the forum question. Besides, you heard of Cagsil's patented unwritten forum rule about commenting on other people's posts in forums.
I am referring to the blatant lies she told about me and then didn't have the guts to front up to.
This is pretty much how I feel, too. I don't think our brains are capable of understanding all the wonders of life and the universe.
I've read the Bible several times, and I admit that I find many parts of the OT troubling. I am, however, inspired by the teachings of Christ in the NT. I like the idea of healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and loving our neighbors. I'm not saying, though, that one must be a Christian to engage in these benevolent actions. I've known some truly altruistic atheists.
I go about belief in God/Jesus a little differently. I have no proof of existence because there is no proof of existence. None. Anywhere. Whatsoever.
I think that the concept of God is probably pretty accurate inasmuch as there is something higher than us. Be that collective consciousness, advanced aliens, an omnipotent being, or just the natural order of the universe. God is just as good of a name to call that force than anything else. I also believe that force is singular and is the same God of all religions regardless of what each religion calls him.
I think that the distinction in religions come with the prophets/clergy and ultimately the believers.
That being said, I choose to follow Christ as prophet. I may not agree with the way that a lot of people interpret the Bible, because I don't rely on other people to explain to me what it says. I am also quite realistic about it's authorship and realize that it was indeed man that wrote it. Despite a lot of other peoples interpretations, I have yet to see the vileness in the book that everyone else has. And the story of Christ moves me. I think the lessons of self-sacrifice, unconditional love, forgiveness, and faith are beautiful and well worth emulation.
So while many people may not call me a Christian, I am indeed-by all definitions- a worshiper of Christ.
Yep! Theres nothing bad in the bible........................ unless you read any of it that is!
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
I wonder if they even bother reading this book they claim to follow? Not many of them seem to have bothered. I think the read the Cliff notes instead.
"God made everything. Jesus sacrificed himself so that we are saved. No Majik was involved. The End."
Hi hon, haven't seen you around much. Thought we lost you. Good to see you are still fighting the good fight.
Thanks. I am continuing to fight against the ignorance and hatred you perpetuate - yes.
Read your book. Do some research. Educate yourself. Please.
I hate it when I perpetuate ignorance and hate accidentally. Maybe you could tell me again exactly how I do that in my life? (Now see, that was sarcasm... a little at least)
Your blind belief in a hate filled book that you have not actually read. Try educating yourself. There are some fascinating - and genuine - answers to be had.
LOL, where do you get blind faith from? And why do you assume I haven't read the book? And even if I did have blind faith in the book, how does that affect anyone else. And what answers am I missing?
I think you are making some assumptions about me, which is fine I guess. If you don't mind being wrong.
You have made plenty of assumptions about me that were wrong, and when I bought it up you did the usual christian thing and ignored it.
Have you even read the OT?
It is chocka with hate, threats and a tiny god who if not worshipped wipes out almost all of mankind, yet somehow you don't see it. Why would that be?
All joking aside Earnest, if I made assumptions I didn't mean to and I'm sorry. I didn't mean to ignore anything you brought up but I'm looking through the thread and I'm not 100 percent sure what I didn't address.
Yes, I've read the Old Testament. Yes there are not nice things in there. The bible was written by man. Man is not always nice. Man has his own agendas.
Yes, I willfully ignore the mean stuff. However, even if I didn't willfully ignore it, I don't think that we would be getting the same message on many of the same verses anyway. Because, like the people who interpreted the bible, then the people who interpreted their interpretations, I believe we have different goals when reading the book.
Like I said before, it is the story of Christ that inspires me. I'm not literal over ever single passage, but look at the book as a whole. As a whole, I get the message of love and peace. Which, as I've said before, is simply my interpretation.
At least you admit there is not actually love and peace in the book - you just choose to pretend there is. You go around telling people that there is love and peace - perpetuating ignorance.
Just too lazy to do any research huh? Take the easy peasy, "goddint 'n' he loves me when no one else does," placebo. Sad.
Just to remind you, you wrote
"Edit: Unless you are Earnest. But he seems to get mad about everything. I think old age has made him contrary."
Ageist, rude, unrelated personal statement which I found offensive and uncalled for.
As for ignoring passages from the book you base your beliefs on, that speaks for itself.
Oh my Earnest. That was supposed to be a joke. You had made a comment to me in a thread about your age. You called me dear child or somesuch and then said you had just had a birthday so you could. (I'm paraphrasing) I was just playing around with that statement. I think I put a smiley on the end of it as well.
But to be honest, I think I've said several times before that I don't take the bible as law. You really aren't telling me anything I didn't know and say myself in several places. I'm not sure what your point is.
OK, I will accept that it was a joke, but in the context it was written I found it offensive.
I know you have been on both sides of the fence and have been critical of fundy beliefs, but three guesses where they get them from?
The bible and quoran are the source of all major religions, and in truth you can cut that back to the bible alone, as the quoran is sourced from the same old stories that the bible repeats that go back to the beginning of consciousness of self.
All the bible stories can be found a long time before the bible was even thought of by the sexist old goat herders who concocted it to scare the hell out of the peasantry to ensure obedience to their schemes.
If you know it is a lot of rot. why believe any of it?
I know that the bible is rehashed stories. As a matter of fact I've done extensive research on not just the bible at it's inception but the effect that the pagan religions in England, Scotland and wales further influenced the Bible and Christian tradition. I know that the church absorbed a lot of the Celtic tradition, renamed it but kept it similar enough that the masses didn't object in mass. Easter, Christmas etc. are all remarkably close to solstices and equinoxes for instance.
Christianity in America (and eventually the world) was further morphed by the Spanish Missionaries incorporating the practiced of native Americans of south america during "missionary" work. They couldn't take the rites away from the native Americans without open rebellion so they morphed them into christian beliefs. Those customs then traveled both to the native Americans and into christian culture.
My belief in Christ, likewise, is a conglomeration of my pre-Christian beliefs and what I have learned during my time as a Christian. Worship to me will not ever be a non-questioning acceptance. It is more of a seeking out. In some native american rites, for example, if you sought strength you prayed to the bear. If you sought cunning you prayed to the fox. For me Christianity is the same. I seek the ability to forgive, therefore I pray to the man who forgave his tortures even as he died. His example gives me motivation to forgive. Since I am not seeking an avatar of hatred (having plenty of that all on my own) then I am not seeing that.
Does that make any sense at all? Would it help to think of it as patron saints or totems or somesuch?
Now to the question of believing... having read my explanation do you really feel that unswerving belief in every word of the bible is necessary for my faith?
And with that viewpoint in mind, the answer to where fundies get their beliefs is that they are using Jesus as an avatar to what they are seeking. Like the patron saint of homophobia or the totem of intolerance.
So for the way I worship/pray/seek then the bible is not rot.
It is full of harsh,graphic literature-I agree.
But it is not the first nor will it be the last book to express such things.
But Earnest you would say mere man wrote the Bible and thats its not inspired at all? is that correct ?
There is so much more to God than the Bible ,I met Christ long before I opened that book anyways.
( This part in answer to OP)
I talked to Him ,when no one else was listening or able to help.
Jesus came through,and has been loyal to His word,every day.
God is not a man (or women) he doesnt lie.
That was what attracted me and has kept me close to His heart
Oh and this world has gone to the dogs
There is only blind faith. It is not possible to have any other sort. You have clearly not read your book - or you choose to lie about what is in it.
You are missing ALL the answers.
Perpetuating ignorance and hatred does affect other people. I am not making any assumptions.
You have proven me right. Jesus was not an actual person. There was no fervor at the time he existed - because he never existed.
Do some research. Educate yourself. It is awesome how much information there actually is instead of the lazy answer you swallowed.
Okay EG, I very seldom lie and I have read the book. People interpret things differently.
And between blind faith and complete cynicism, there is a willful choice to believe.
But lets play this game... you tell me what question you think I am missing the answer to and I'll answer it. I don't claim to know everything, but I don't think I'm quite as ignorant as you think I am.
And you can tell me exactly how my belief perpetuates anything. Or how it even effects anyone but myself.
You missed the point on Jesus and how my belief system works. I believe that a prophet that we now call Jesus walked upon the face of the earth. There is some amount of evidence that this is true. Is he the biblical Jesus? *shrugs* don't know, don't care. The story is the same regardless. I think that whoever the prophet was, there was obviously some amount of fervor because he was memorable enough to hit the pages of the bible. Whether or not he did everything that the bible said he did, none of it, some of it, or the biblical Jesus was a compilation of several prophets doesn't really matter to me. The story is what is important. Not every single word of it, but the story in general.
And I didn't swallow anything, because I wasn't taught anything. I did my research and came to my own conclusions.
Please provide this evidence.
There is none - you are using a nonsensical argument - that because the bible says so - it is true. Your research (if you had done any - which I seriously doubt) would have shown you that there is no evidence at all. None. So - why are you now lying to me? I mean - show me some non-biblical evidence please.
Seriously - the story of nonsencial, impossible god becoming his own son and killing himself to come back to life later in order to save you from something that you can save yourself from inspires you? What does it inspire you to do exactly?
LMAO Oh my... You are in rare form...
Okay, here is where I refer to Tacitus and you say no and go into a diatribe on what could or could not be an obscure misspelling in Latin on a handwritten parchment. Then I say "What about Josephus?" and you try to convince me that he was really the first messianic Jew or some such.
And then I say, "Okay, the story of a man that heals the sick, feeds the poor, and gives comfort to a man dying on a cross beside him is inspirational" and you bring up a hundred unrelated verses made to convince me that it is indeed not inspirational and I must be ignorant for thinking so.
Yet you still have not told me what I am missing the answer to. I mean if you are speaking of little things like who wrote the fourth verse of chapter 2 of Genesis, then you are right.
If you are talking about how the world was created, what happens when we die, how we should behave in life and why... then I think you are a little off base.
Tacitus and Josephus? LOL Like - I said - you have not done any research - you are parroting the same tired old arguments that others have parroted. If you had - you would know that neither of these were contemporaries. There is no contemporary evidence at all. None. Please stop lying to me. It insults my intelligence. Thanks.
You are missing all the wonderful answers to all the questions we have about ourselves. All the while spreading ignorance and lies to defend your irrational beliefs.
Do some research on Crixus. Go on - I dare you to actually look at the evidence and facts instead of parroting stuff you have not actually researched yourself.
LMAO... By all definitions Tacticus was contemporary or so nearly contemporary that the difference is splitting hairs.
In case no one else sees it and might fall into the trap, let me explain your arguing style.
When you are given broad evidence you keep limiting the scope of acceptable evidence until you reach a point where no such evidence can be provided. Its actually a fairly effective debate tactic, but it produces flawed arguments... Eventually it produces such questions as "Can you provide proof from a Red Headed, one armed man who was born in Sumeria 17 years before the Romans crucified Christ? No? Ha Ha I win!" On the surface, it seems to back your point but in reality its just another cheap debate tactic.
I like you EG, in all your personalities. I like that you question and make other people think. But, you are actually being a little transparent in your trolling here. I would love to have a debate with you about this because its actually a pretty interesting topic. However I'm not going to dodge about answering silly meaningless questions that serve only to divert attention from points that you cannot win.
So if you think you have a point that I need to concede, then by all means tell me what it is. As of yet however I'm not seeing anything but meaningless insults that really don't even address the issue at had. Which is a shame, because I know you are more intelligent than having to resort to such tactics.
Tacitus was born 56AD. Josephus 37 AD. Do you know what contemporary means? It appears not, so let me tell you - "alive at the same time."
The point I am making is that there is no contemporary evidence. This is the point you need to concede.
This is what believing nonsense does to you - you fight and argue and spread ignorance.
Awesome bit of condescending at the end. I wish I could say the same about you, but your irrational beliefs keep getting in the way. Seriously - do some research instead. Educate yourself as to the meaning and origin of your claimed beliefs.
Thanks for giving me eyestrain.
Anyway from what I get that isn't an order so much as a prophesy. Its speaking about Christs return to earth and what will happen to those who say that he isn't the true second coming. *Shrugs* I can see where it could happen. Given the fervor over his appearance 2000 years ago, if Christianity was given a walking breathing Messiah I can easily see parents killing their kids if they speak against him. I'm pretty sure some of the more overzealous would do it now.
You know earnest, for someone that doesn't believe in the bible you spend an awfully lot of time reading it. And your ability to see evil in it is matched only by the conservative christian zealots. Ever wonder why you and them see the same thing? *ducks*
There was no fervor. There is no contemporary evidence at all. None. If you bothered to research this - you would discover that fact. This is the problem with your blind faith. It came too easy. Believers are intellectually lazy.
Wow, I have no idea what you are talking about.
What fervor? Contemporary evidence of what? I was just telling what I got from the verse after I read it in context.
Maybe its just my intellectual laziness, but could you put your statements into context for me please?
And no that wasn't sarcasm.
Lots of study.
No point wasting it.
I have a lot of curiosity about life that I don't like to see reduced to goddunnit.
As for the hate in the bible, almost impossible to avoid..... unless wilfully.
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)"
Seeing requires looking. Hate is what it looks like, hate.
You pick the negative.
I prefer the positive!
1If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it;a but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
8Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.
11When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.c All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
13Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love. (emphasis mine)
There is both positive and negative in all things. We can't have one without the other.
I wonder if more people looked for and found the more positive things in life, if this world wouldn't be just a little bit better.
Many only see the positive of their "religion", but seeing, knowing and acceptance of the negative allows one to avoid those things. The same as in life itself.
*shrugs* I guess maybe I do tend to willfully ignore hate. I don't seek it out so that's not what I focus on. I seek love, I find love. Tell me how that is bad again?
I mean if we are reading the same book and I am getting a positive message that inspires me to be a better person... why would you try to convince me that it is wrong?
And I am an extremely curious person. I need to know how and why things work. My intellect is not at all challenged by my faith. I'm not really a Goddunnit kinda chick.
Do you think parents treat little children differently than they do older children, and use different language when they do? Do parents ever tell "white lies" or gross simplifications to their children for any constructive purpose?
Are you under the illusion that everywhere outside the Hebrews' domain in 500BCE was peaceful and rational?
Unrelated. You seem to be under the delusion that a psychopathic invisible unproven unlikely in the extreme fairy told his "kids" lies?
Occasionally you act like a decent person here. This is not a good example.
Occasionally I am well over being given the "word" by a bunch of hypocrites who imply they are better people than others, and have the inside running on life because some psychotic tome told them so.
can i splain it ????? ""
Wont thoug; cause .... you dont't wamt to hear it so you won'r!
So I cain't.
or I'd cheapen it for me
find your own.
my belief comes from observation of nature ..and belief is that religious good and books are man creation...god has nothing to do with , nor does it interfere and day to day affair of humans..
A very good post Melissa. I also seek guidance, and fear the gods that are archetypal and with good reason.
They are a part of my psyche.
No person escapes religiosity or the seeking of gods entirely and that is a conversation best had on a psychology forum as I see it.
What we can do is recognise it's subconscious existence, and expose it to self thus enabling an entirely different way of seeing it to that of a "believer"
If you base your beliefs on the good things said to be said by Jesus, (or take your pick of whichever if you do the research)then that is in line with a lot of rational thinking.
The mistake I see is that when one takes on the christian title, the OT comes with it, as do many anomalies in what Jesus is supposed to have said, the rivals of his at the time, the same jesus that came before jesus that said the same or similar things, none of them very profound anyway, and all of the little bits bolted on as you have accurately described. (I'm impressed.)
A Zealous christian will use every passage from wherever it came from historically to support what they believe, and there is something wrong with that. I see you recognise what that is. They do not know the history of their religion as well as you do in most cases, and I find their arguments faulty in facts.
Evil? Evil is me. I am evil, just like every other human being. It's called the human condition for a reason. I am also decent, honest kind and full of love for many people human or otherwise.
The difference between evil people and good people is the ability of a said person to act out of the right part of themselves, and denying that I am the mass murdering kind only allows me to become one.
I have benefited from looking at myself, not jesus or any other role model, I only wish to emulate myself, not some external entity that does not appear in any way to exist other than in belief. I believe in self worth, not the apologetic falsely modest bulldust I see here all the time, I mean love for self.
I believe in me, My curiosity lead me to spend six painful years in psychotherapy because I found an expert in the field I wished to use, and am more than happy to continue learning anything to do with what and how we think.
My beliefs just ain't sacred, they are ready to be changed in a heartbeat. I am a very simple person in that way. I believe what I believe until something proves it wrong.
God is a difficult word, since we all have different definitions. But the force I am aware of and willing to contemplate if it is 'God' or not I know through revelation. I have had experiences that leave no doubt in my mind that we are connected to something. Whether it transcends the physical world and can never be fully known, or it is a part of the universe that we have yet to fully quantify I couldn't say.
What I use for proof is even more difficult to explain. I start with what I know about it. I know this force exists here and now, so I can't make a deist argument. I know the force is benign although I have no evidence that is is willing, or able, to influence any more than our hearts and minds; so I can't make a theist argument.
Contemplating how this force could exist in the world as we have come to know it; I'm still grappling with. But my current musings take into account that we see many patterns within the physical world; so I would assume any answer would mirror patterns we do see. My favorite idea right now revolves around the pattern of the water cycle here on earth. Each of us being a brief manifestation of a separation of a tiny portion of the whole. Each life a singularity, of sorts, by choice or ignorance; separated momentarily but destined to be absorbed upon death. We would all be, in essence, an integral part of God; albeit each of us a very tiny part.
Very nice Emile. Maybe I am taking you wrong, but it sounds like you have your personal proof of a higher force or "divine power" (of sorts). But that isn't necessarily a/the "God", that everyone believes in.
It is said that there is energy in everything. Theory would think that the universe has it's unique energy signature, what if that energy is what everyone feels and equates to "God". That might explain why many can feel it, but feel it in different ways. It would also explain why some can't feel it at all. People are different and their perceptions vary.
No. You didn't take me wrong. I simply think people are prone to assume an experience or two is license to let their imaginations run wild. I've been a victim of that myself. So, I realized that I needed to back up and start with the premise that what I know is as powerful as it gets. With that in mind, I have to determine how that might be possible.
Your comments on energy do seem to be one of the possibilities. It's all, unfortunately, idle speculation. Entertaining, of course; but we may never have an answer.
Sadly this is true. We may never prove anything remotely like this or any other theory, not only in our lifetime, but ever.
That sounds like a non threatening idea. I like that you said "current musings," as it allows for new thoughts to flow in when we don't put up brick walls.
Drat Ernest. I had namaste and a smiley face ready for people laughing at my pitiful musings. You have to go and be all nice about it.
But, it's counterproductive to put up a brick wall in a belief system. Information has to be allowed to flow hard and heavy, or you get distracted by make believe. If there is something to figure out, we'll never do it standing in one place.
Believer here. The reason to disbelieve in his existance does not exist so I believe he exists! ... Er ... quite apart from that ... I have no grudge against GOD ... so I believe that he does exist!
No evidence to prove non-existance and no grudge so no reason not to believe? Is that correct from your post?
Thanks for the post.
Yes, DoubleScorpion, I have absolutely no grudge against GOD. He has not broken any promises ... and he never will.
LOL! He never promises anything to anybody either! It's the ones who "expect" reciprocation for "voluntary" services rendered who feel disappointed.
I don't know about "undeniable proof" because not all people who believe in G-d think that it exists (or that it's necessary), but I have long felt that the universe has an ethos. That ethos is: continuous evolution, change, increasing humanity and love, and slow, gradual achievement of moral behavior alongside greater understanding/revealing of how existence works.
I do not believe in G-d as a personal being, but rather the name given by people who are struggling to wrap their heads around the divine.
For context: I was raised very non-religious but nominally Catholic, was secular/agnostic/atheist during most my adult years, and converted to Judaism a couple of years ago.
Explain my belief in God?
Because He Is
I do not "believe" He is, I know He is. There is a big difference between "belief" and "faith."
"Belief" is at effect; "faith" is at cause.
Remember what Rene Descartes said? "I think, therefore I am." He either knew God exists or believed it. Smart man.
It is naturally difficult for someone who does not have faith to tell the difference between "belief" and "faith." On the surface, they seem to look exactly alike.
There are many aspects to human nature which have look-alikes that are vastly different.
Take "shyness," for instance. There are many aspects of that which look like humility. But shyness is all about the "self" (ego). Humility, on the other hand, is all about selflessness.
The true self (spirit, soul, child of God) cannot awaken so long as we place importance in ego. Ego is the "master" of this world and source of all evil. Think about every evil thing man has done. It all comes back to selfishness (ego).
Groveling has some similarities with humility, but groveling is also all about the self (ego).
Being at Effect
Some use the term "victim" when they talk of someone who commits suicide. Interestingly, though, the suicide is also the perpetrator in the ultimate separation of self from everyone and everything else. Suicide is perhaps the most selfish act anyone can ever do. But the "bite" of the "forbidden fruit" was also an act of suicide. That fruit was no physical plant material, but a matrix of dichotomies which formed the poison we know of as ego. This resulted in a spiritual "death" from which we need to be resurrected. The first dichotomy, good-evil, was mentioned in Genesis. Others include, right-wrong, generous-selfish, compassion-indifference, wisdom-stupidity, etc. Therefore, anyone can remain trapped in ego and seem good, right, generous, compassionate and wise. So, what's the difference? The Buddhists called the difference "paramita" (the other shore or side of existence).
Paramita generosity is like the Zen "one hand clapping." It is the perfection of generosity, devoid of all selfishness. This is a non-dichotomy. Ego cannot touch this. This resides in the timeless realm of spirit and creation. Ego is made up of time (persistence) and thus will not fit in that realm.
Sympathy-compassion is another look-alike pair. Sympathy is destructive and, again, all about the self. There is no clean intent to help with sympathy. Any action by the sympathizer tends to suppress and disable the "victim." Compassion, however, is all about generosity. At its most powerful, it is anonymous, so the "self" (ego) is never involved.
There is a big difference between honesty and dishonesty, too. By saying you know God exists you are being dishonest and you know it too.
It is OK he lies - becoz he iz a cho=sen liaR THEREFORE IT IS OK.
U wouldn't unerstand. U iz 2 stoopid innit.
Blue words iz better innit
The "all-knowing" and omniscient "Troubled Man" has spoken. Do you think you are only your Homo sapiens body? If so, then I'm not surprised by your response.
And you too, EG.
Such "logic"... such grammar and spelling. Such intellect. I am sorely amazed!
Yes, we both are and you know that too.
Powers of Perception
Honing one's own powers of perception, especially with self-awareness, is key to being able to recognize the subtle differences.
With such refinement, anyone would be able to recognize the mechanics of creation and perform any manner of extraordinary miracle (cause-and-effect coincidence or circumvention of physical law). With such refinement, one might find their true self outside of their body with full visual ability -- an ability to see details, even to the point of reading private mail or sneaking into private places. That which travels and perceives has nothing to do with Homo sapiens and its limited abilities. The physical body is merely a tool facilitating our ability to discuss these philosophical issues.
I have done these things because of faith. Requiring "proof" first prevents the acquisition of faith. So, if one adheres to the scientific approach to the exclusion of all else, then they will miss out. This is similar to Einstein's challenge more than a century ago. All other scientists were stuck in Newtonian simplicity. Einstein was able to imagine possibilities outside of that box, and he did not need proof to find himself out on that limb. He let his faith guide him. He knew that there was an answer outside of current law. Many scientists do not have the bravery or imagination to visit that realm.
Being at Cause
And to think that there might be mechanisms at work underlying reality that are not subject to the laws of science, some scientists cannot fathom such a possibility. But these answer the questions of what is "time," "space," and "cause."
God is "cause." Every effect requires one. And for those who might quip, "who created God?" The answer is quite simple: "God is cause, not effect."
Thanks for the post. A little on the long side, but I understand the context.
Pithy one-liners really don't hold my interest.
Thanks, Double, for adding such an interesting forum question, but I was hoping for a more engaging discussion.
I didn't what to "pick" or "debate" this particular question. I am curious of the responses. And there have been a few really good responses.
I could debate the point of views offered, but that would defeat the purpose of what I am trying to learn from this question.
I understand, Double. I wasn't even talking about "debate." A simple discussion would allow me to learn, too. And I continue to hunger for learning.
Good luck with your research. An admirable task.
Would you like to discuss your thoughts and mine? Or would you like to see a complete thread discussing the explainations of our belief in God? That is something we could do. There are a few folks on here that I would really enjoy sitting down with in real life and have a friendly discussion on religion and philosophy. I think some have a really good outlook on things, but written words lack the voice and body language interactions of a real live discussion.
How can you have a hunger for learning exactly? You already claim to do majik and have knowledge above and beyond reality.
You think we are stupid enough to swallow this lie?
evolution guy...i am curious why it is if people can believe in a GOD, and that belief does not harm you personally, what problem do you have allowing them the freedom to believe as they like. i admit there are to many who try to force their belief on others. but surely you have the intelligence, when faced with those who do not, to treat them with the same respect as they treat you. i personally believe evolution is flawed...but i am not going to tell you you believe a lie. people are free to follow whom they will follow and believe what they will believe.
I didn't read through all of the comments, but I think in a simple fashion of explaining to someone why you believe in God would be to ask them if they can see the wind. Someone might state that yes, they can see the wind because they can see the leaves moving on a tree, or the ripples on top of a pond... But is that really the wind you are seeing, or the effects of the wind?
Can we actually see God? Physically no, but we can see the effects of his greatness. A baby being born, a person who is cured of cancer, an accident survivor...
Another example would be a watch. A basic pocket watch can contain many complications which are made up of many gears and pieces. If you took all of those pieces and put them in a box and then shook the box, more than likely, you would end up with what your started off with - a box full of gears and pieces. But if you put those pieces in front of a skilled engineer, he would be able to create a working pocket watch. Without that creator, you would've had all of the makings to have something great, but would have never have gotten what those pieces could have been if put together in the right order and in the right places.
It is the atmosphere in motion, and yes, we can see the atmosphere, we know exactly what it is made of and how it works. Your exmaple is tired, old and pointless.
Those are the effects of nature, not gods. What about babies that don't make it through birth, all the people who die of cancer, who die in accidents? Where is God then?
Another tired, old and pointless example that has been shown to be a faulty analogy. Fractals are complex patterns that emerge naturally from simple systems showing easily that complexity is not a valid argument for a designer.
Some things can just never be explained or proven. Apologetics are founded in these types of arguments. Some just have a refusal to see anything past their own beliefs. Education must be a sin to some people I am starting to think.
Education and understanding sciences does not mean one has to change their faith or belief, although it seems like some feel that it does.
Maybe some fear that science will prove their faith or beliefs wrong and they wouldn't be able to handle that. Seems that they aren't to sure of their faith or beliefs.
for me, i dont fear science at all. science can be very educational, beneficial, even fascinating. but then, i dont consider the theory of evolution to be very scientific either. there is no threat in science...science has no power over GOD. there is no worry on my part that science can ever prove either my faith or my beliefs wrong. nothing on earth can shake what I know to be true.
i do not expect anyone else to hold these same truths or beliefs. it is not my place to convince anyone they are right or wrong in their own beliefs.
evolution guy...dont you have anything to contribute to a conversation or discussion than insults? or is that the only reason you hang out in religion forums...to insult believers?
Things do evolve though...That has been proven by science. And the Theory of Human evolution is just that...A Theory...It does have supporting evidence, but as with many other things, cannot be completely proven as fact...Yet...the facts change as new evidence or knowledge is gained.
Even religion and faith and beliefs evolve. As one gains new insights into these fields, their faith, beliefs and even the religion can change.
Evolution has already been proven as fact because the science of microbiology would not exist if it were not fact.
Not only that, but the two primary requirements of evolution have been shown to be fact; natural selection and generation of diversity can be demonstrated using simple common examples that follow the laws of thermodynamics and statistical mechanics.
Evolution I agree...Human Evolution (as in from monkeys) is still not concrete...All things evolve, but proving humans came from monkeys or the primival ooze is still a work in progress (from what I understand).
I didn't know humans came from monkeys, perhaps that is my misunderstanding of human evolution.
To be completely honest, I don't know how humans came about. Science makes the most sense to me overall. I just can't believe that "God" created, as the bible claims.
In my humble opinion, science just hasn't concretely confirmed anything yet. But, it is highly likely based off of the information and studies we currently have.
Who knows maybe one day, someone will find proof that we can from another planet and migrated here because we managed to kill off our old world, like we seem to be doing to this one scarily fast.
For me it is a combination of two things: an inner feeling that cannot be explained and the amazing complexity of the universe we live in which is more and more mind-boggling the more you look into its wonders.
I agree with Bard of Ely. God speaks to me mostly through nature and the passage of time. You see a wrench or a bottle or an exquisite watch and you know it was created....that it did not just spring into existence or evolve from primordial mud.
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