Was it "Before Abraham was, "I am" existed " that Jesus actually meant in John 8:58?
Jesus is often quoted as saying "before Abraham was even born, I Am!" This passage, is often used to defend the fact that he was in existence before creation, as God. But, was he actually referring to the person of God - the "I AM," as opposed to himself?
I AM is God. God has no beginning or end. He is outside of time.
That's not in dispute here. So, assuming that's true, was Jesus actually referring to Him other than himself in that statement?
Jesus was speaking of the I Am, God, and not of himself
Deborah, an earlier commentator suggested to read the verse contextually, and that if we do, we can find that he wasn't actually talking about God, but himself. Or do you think it makes sense to just consider the verse out of context?
Jesus words were not His own, but of the Father who sent Him.
Jesus said he was before Abraham. Jesus Christ had been conceived in the Father, the Father's logos, the expression of the Father.
God had finished all His works from the foundation of the world.
....although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. - Hebrews 4:3
God's Son was conceived in the Father before creation...meaning, "Before Abraham was, "I am" existed "
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. - John 1:18
Jesus was known and loved before the foundation of the world.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you. - 1 Peter 1:20
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. - John 17:24
((" But, was he actually referring to the person of God - the "I AM," as opposed to himself?"))
Jesus words were not His own, but of the Father who sent Him.
I respect your opinion. And, if I understand you correctly, you are saying he was referring to God, the "I am," as inspired by Him. But, was indirectly saying even him was before Abraham, given that he too is God.
Ego eimi in Greek (I AM) is not a divine name that Jesus used in John 8:58 It is ego eimi ho on that is divine name applied to God Rev 1:4,8; 4:8,11:17,16:5 Ego eimi is used also in John 4:26 where Jesus does not claim to be Yahweh but God's Christ
If you view the universe as a limited human self, separate from others, then you are Ego.
If you view the universe as a part of a larger whole, at-one with others, then you are Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. In this case, you could say, "Before Abraham was, I AM." You will be at-one with God, because you will be Love without any self-concern.
Jesus is our brother. He loves us and wants to help us wake up, spiritually. This means turning our back on Ego, converting all of its desires to those of love an altruism.
Christ was stating, rather matter of factly, that He is God in the flesh. I Am was how God revealed Himself to Moses. The Jews of the time understood I Am to mean someone is claiming to be God. In fact, it was Jewish law at the time that speaking those words in that context was blasphemy. Jesus was declaring His divinity.
Thought he was aversive about declaring himself divine. Yes, I know he called himself Son of God, but my understanding is that other Jews did as well. Guess it makes sense the clinging on the belief that he is a God.
Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time, but did not physically exist. He was the Father's plan for the redemption of man in His foreknowledge. The “I am” statement in John 8:58 is not equivalent with the “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14.
It absolutely is the same statement. And the Jews understood it as such. That's why they were going to stone Him. Jesus was claiming his divinity. The passage can be read no other way
If what you are saying is "true," then when Paul said, "I am" (ego eimi) in Acts 26:29, he must be also claiming divinity too. In Matt. 26:63, no one at the trial asked Jesus if he were God, but said, "tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
Sure, let's just throw context out the window and start relying on reduction ad absurdum. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Jesus Christ is God
Looking at the context of the gospel of John, Jesus consistently draws a separation between Himself and the Father saying that He is subordinate to the Father (John 14:28) and was sent at his Father's direction (John 3:16; 17:3).
Which is contradicted by the context of the entire New Testament. When looking at the whole of the NT in context, you can draw no other conclusion than Jesus is God.
Looking at the context of all four gospels, Jesus again consistently shows that He does not believe himself to be God. Luke 22:42, Mark 15:34, Matthew 28:18. If Jesus knew He was God, none of these verses would make sense.
God is omnipresent. He's everywhere at once. He was on Earth in the form of Jesus and He was in Heaven. The 3 forms of God are separate but one. The nature of God is mysterious, but scripture shows Them to all be a single entity with 3 natures
And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is NO OTHER besides HIM. - Mark 12:32. No three forms here, just ONE. Jesus obeyed the Shema by worshiping and recognizing the Father as the only God.
In Genesis God told Moses his name was I Am, meaning He is what He chooses to be
Jesus was saying that before Abraham was I am, or before Abraham was God. He wasn't using bad grammar.
In the scriptures there were no punctuations, and when they translated and put in a comma, it changed the meaning.
No where else in scripture was there bad grammar, and there wasn't here either, just an unneeded comma
Your explanation doesn't hold true when you look at the entire passage. The Jews asked if Jesus had ever know Abraham. He was saying that He existed before Abraham was born. And they were going to stone Him for claiming to be God.
William Avitt, I do agree. He wasn't talking about God and the grammatical error argument doesn't make sense when the verse is read contextually. Wow! Now am not sure what to think. Because I thought he was really referring to God.
No, Donald, He was absolutely referring to Himself AS GOD. And the Jews knew this. That's why they were going to stone Him and He had to go into hiding. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.
Jesus never spoke of himself but of God
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
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