Does a Truth depend upon human the perception for it to be true?

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   jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years ago

   Does a Truth depend upon human the perception for it to be true?
   
   Surely, a fundamental truth can stand alone, without the support of any perception which might or might not be an authentic view.  A fundamental truth will be true regardless of perception.
   http://jpdery.com/Optical_Illusions.html

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   Austinstarposted 9 years ago

   Even the laws of physics demand proof. So, I guess I do not understand your question. What "fundamental truth" would be true without facts, figures, repeatable experimentation, demonstrable effects, or independent observation?
   Optical illusions are not "truth", they are demonstrably false.
   One can "believe" in a "truth", but that does not make it so.
   So, I suppose the answer to your question is - no, truths do not depend on human perception. Human perception is variable. What one person perceives may or may not equal what other people perceive.
   Truth must be proven to all. It cannot be assumed by some.

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   jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years ago

   Thanks for your answer, Austinstar.   I guess the question as put is a bit too obscure for most people.
   One example of a "fundamental" truth, which is (to my mind) irrefutable, would be:  "There is no consciousness without change."  I.e., there must be a difference of some sort, of some degree, in order for us to be aware of anything.   
   On the other hand, someone could declare some thing or concept to be "The Truth," but you would need science to confirm or contradict it.  If no scientific method can be applied, then there is no way of confirmation either way.  I would label any religious claims about metaphysical concepts in this category.
   Opening a can-of-worms maybe, but it does not have to be taken toooo seriously.

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      Austinstarposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      "There is no consciousness without change." or is it simply awareness? Like when a tree falls in the forest. One can only hear it if they are aware of the event. Are the motions of the universe changing? Or are we just becoming aware of them?

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Without ripples on the sea's surface it would not be distinguished from where it meets the sky.  We need difference in order to be aware.  It is our key to consciousness.  Fundamentally.

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      Austinstarposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      But difference do not equal change exactly. Imagine pi. It contains every nember and number configuration that there is. But it doesn't change. Pi s just pi. Our awareness of it can be measured.

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Can awareness be quantified, eg, < or > or = ?  There must be difference in order for measurement to take place. Otherwise it's infinite.  Maybe "awareness" IS infinite.

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      Austinstarposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      The things that we can become aware of are infinite, as is the universe, as is pi.

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting flow of thought.  Infinite=no awareness.  Finite=awareness.  Difference creates energy.  Energy maintains that difference.  Energy begins to flow.  Reduces difference. Back to Infinity.  But what created difference in the first place????

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      Austinstarposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      What is the difference between one unit of energy and another unit of energy? Answer - there is no difference and both are infinite. There is no such thing as finite. If you cannot understand Infinity, you are not truly aware.

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Ok. Thanks!  Early morning here. Must get on, lots to do. Wishing you well. Will think on infinitely being.

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   Tusitala Tomposted 9 years ago

   Heavy stuff this!   If I were in a sensory deprived chamber: no light, no weight, no hearing, no taste and no smell, it's my understanding that the words "I am," indicating I know I exist, followed by no other label, would be my truth.   That's the way I interpret it anyway.   There would not be any changes detected but I would still know "I am."    So I'm assuming here that a truth does not depend upon a perception as we would define that word perception...
   
   But, frankly, I don't really know.

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks Tom.   "I don't really know"  is the really honest bit.  It allows us all to continue searching into the depths of infinite possibility without being disrespectful of each other's unique journey.   Heavy stuff, made light with the love of life

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   ValKarasposted 9 years ago

   Just like the rest of you -  I don't know the answer. But, allow me to speculate on it for a bit. What if quantum mechanics is right and it takes an observer for something to become a materialized reality? Before that, it's all a field of infinite potentiality, waiting for an observer to collapse some energy waves into material forms.
   
   Now, let's talk for a moment about collective consciousness of our species. We know that a flock of birds, a swarm of bees, or a school of tiny ocean fishes can move in unbelievable unison,  the only possible explanation being that they are guided by a collective consciousness of their particular species.
   
   Let's say "green" is green to everybody because it's a part of our default collective program. If we connect the upper and lower dots of my text so far, we are coming to a possible conclusion that our collective consciousness is collapsing some waves into a virtual reality which we all experience as a broadcasted program, with us being its collective co-creators.
   So, if I am asleep and you are seeing a bird, that bird is a part of our virtual reality, My "receiver" is asleep so it is not registering its "existence", while yours is.
   
   But, does it really "exist"? Scientists are telling us that each second our brain is processing 400 billion pieces of information, and we are only aware of some 20,000. What are we doing with the rest, if not participating in a collective maintenance of our "reality" on quantum level  -  which then manifests itself as everything that we perceive.
   
   Funny thing is that according to science, our eyes don't really see, but brain does the seeing, while eyes only project the outer appearances onto the brain. If I hypnotize you and tell you that the house in front of you is a tidal wave  -  that's what your eyes will see; and a glass of water will make you drunk- like -a -skunk if I tell you it's whiskey.
   
   So, in my little speculation  -  forget about perception, forget about a "truth", because it's all mind's construct, and the only thing left is that mysterious consciousness that orchestrates the whole circus that we proudly call "our reality".
   If my speculation is making even a little sense, wouldn't it be time to start using our intent to fashion our intimate reality in a more sensible way? So that we partially detach ourselves from the senseless paradigm of the collective consciousness, and start collapsing some better manifestations for ourselves than we are programmed to do. Thank you.

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, you are very close to the intention of my question, thank you.  It points to the need for us to open our minds to infinite possibilities, instead of getting bogged down in dogma.

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      ValKarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Since variety seems to be the underlying creative principle, let's hope that "our kind" generates a critical vibrational mass  that may collapse a change and re-program the collective consciousness. Thank you for obviously being a part of it.

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      jonnycomelatelyposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Also I suggest, intelligence begins with "I don't know the answer," because then questions can be asked.

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      Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Val, my Friend---how close are we to that time we of human existence, wherein we can choose, if we so desire---via the wonderful world of "Virtual Reality", the ability to simply check out of our outside influenced mind based decisions and simply BE?

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