immortality

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   qwarkposted 13 years ago

   Why is it that monotheistic "believers" think that we, simple human animals, deserve or may earn immortality?

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      TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Because no one wants to die.

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         qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Spider:
         For sure!
         But based 100% on conjecture and opinion, why do monotheists think we are "special" and can earn or deserve immortality?

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            TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Many monotheists believe that people were created by their chosen deity. They also recognize that humans are like no other animal on the planet; we speak, we change our environment, we have an intricate brain that can hold many TERRABYTES of information. *shrug* They figure if a god made them, that god can make them immortal if he chooses to. If you start with the assumption that there's an all-powerful creative entity, it's a logical thought urged on by the fear of death.
            
            I've never seen any evidence that it's otherwise, either.

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            The Ropeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            because that is the frame of reference from which they come...it is a type of "projection".

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Why is it that the human mind thinks that the eternal life source depends upon our believing in it for it to be eternal.
            And why is it so hard for us to believe that we are a tiny little part of this life force eternally?

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      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      not only monotheistic. What about some kind of Hinduism, or  ancient Greek, Roman, Mayan, Aztec and Egypt creeds ?
      they were polytheistic and believed in immortality.
      and why's that ?
      Because human beings, being so proud of themselves, can't believe they're not living forever.

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         qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Tantrum:
         If you wish, include all contemporary and ancient religions. NP
         Proud? are you sure of that word to describe those who believe we are immortal?

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            tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            What would you say of beings that think they're above animals, just because they don't understand them?
            what would you say of beings thinking being created by a God ? And thinking  this God is there to provide for them ?
            What would you say of thinking the human body is perfect? With all the flaws it has ??
            what would you say of thinking aliens are worried about us and are coming to save us?. Or that they are somewhere watching us, and interested in us ?
            I call that pride. Better, Foolish pride.
            Tell me what you call it.

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               qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Tantrum:
               Arrogance based 100% on abject ignorance.

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                  tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Arrogance< foolish pride
                  We agree !

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      TLMinutposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      qwark, I don't know what a "chatter ref." is but why is this answer not credible? You asked:
      
      
      
      My response is that monotheistic "believers" DON'T believe that we are simple human animals. I was only referring to Christian believers, is that the problem? It's true that I'm not as familiar with other religions as with Christianity - were you looking for a more global viewpoint?
      
      Or are you looking for the viewpoint of people who are believers that DO agree we're simple human animals and wondering why they think one animal would receive "preference" over the others? Or is it something else entirely?

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      yolanda yvetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      First off, humans are not animals.  Aren't we either one or the other?  Secondly, immortality is not deserved by any of us, but it is the gift of God.  It isn't nor can ever be earned.

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      sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      we're not worthy if thats what you meant.

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         qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Sooner:
         The question began with "why?"
         Are ya able to answer why you say we are not worthy or exactly from what frame of ref you made that decision?

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      drej2522posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Nobody wants to cease to exist! I think it is more fear driven than anything else.

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         tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

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      Poppa Bluesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Forget the religious aspect, look at it from a scientific point of view and then perhaps understand the wisdom in the religious aspect. Matter can neither be created or destroyed. All that makes up the universe is and has always been and only changes form. All of us (or our atoms at least) were at one time a part of a star and at some point in the future we will be so again.

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         qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Poppa:
         My question concerns religion.
         You answer is correct, but it has nothing to do with what I asked.Thanks anyway.

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   cosetteposted 13 years ago

   everyone needs to believe in something.

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Cossette:
      Much to vague...expand pls. Ty

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         cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         vague, really? succinct, maybe. i don't know why they believe what they believe, but if they want to, that's their right.

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   awareposted 13 years ago

   metamorphous .  its real

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   Denno66posted 13 years ago

   Okay, then. Where is the proof either way?

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Denn:
      Where is the proof of "what?"

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         TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think Denn is asking "where is the proof that we aren't immortal in some fashion?" or something along those lines.

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            qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Spider:
            Proofs?
            My question doesn't require proofs until someone claims that we are immortals. If someone claims we are then it is their responsibility to prove it.
            I'm just asking why the majority of humanity "thinks" we are...and why would anyone think that we "evovled" animals deserve or can earn immortality?

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               TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Proof of what? I didn't claim we are immortal or not. You don't need proof that monotheists believe god created them, it's common knowledge. Immortality is a "logical" offshoot of the idea that we are created by a higher being. I didn't say I believed one way or the other.
               
               There's also no proof that any one species has ever changed into a completely different species, according to Darwin himself. So, prove the "evolved" part. Have you seen any monkeys changing into people lately?
               
               Didn't think so.

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                  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Spider:
                  Micro evolution has been empirically proved.
                  Macro evolution? Not yet. complex life takes hundreds of thousands of years to be realized. Given time, it too will be proved.
                  My question has not been answered. Why, in the minds of so many, is mankind so "special" it deserves/can earn immortality?

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                     Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I have to agree with you when I ask; Why do humans think that we are special just because we are a small piece to that eternal life force; as is everything else on earth that has life?

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                     Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Perhaps because humanity sees itself as the best. Humanity is the uppermost lifeform that we can see, examine, and classify. Therefore if anything/one is deserving of eternal life/immortality it would be us, the 'best'.
                     
                     Fear of death, and the hope that death is merely a change and not an ending, would account for the generalized acceptance... (Without proof anything is possible.) Without proof to the contrary, the option that gives the greatest comfort would be the popular choice. Humanity would then 'invent' or 'find' ways to support the comforting belief. For the sake of the comfort it gives them.

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   Sa Toyaposted 13 years ago

   Immortality
   
   To live forever.....
   
   It is wanted because no one wants life to come to an end.
   
   Maybe they believed we deserved it because we need to be around to take care of the earth....considering the awesome job we're doing atm
   
   I think the lack of immortality is what makes life beautiful.
   We see all the beauty and wonders of the world and in our eyes they are worth more because we may never see it again.
   
   Phrases like live each day as it were your last...only makes sense because we are not immortal.
   
   Perhaps they thought we deserved it because we are the highest form of animal life on the planet.
   
   Who knows...

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   awareposted 13 years ago

   the proff is in the pudding

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   TLMinutposted 13 years ago

   Maybe because we're taught that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. Our life force, our energy, must stay somewhere instead of dissipating into nothing. Don't know about animals, many believe they can live 'forever' too, whatever that type of living may be.

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Tlminut:
      Before I can take you seriously and respond appropriately, you must accept the FACT that we humans are animals...:-)

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   TLMinutposted 13 years ago

   Then if our life energy remains, are we still "we"? The same consciousness? That leads to so many questions and facts we don't yet have that it's easy to just stop there.

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   JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

   Hi Quark,
   You have asked me in another forum thread to answer your question and I am trying to answer according to Indian beliefs.
   
   Spirituality goes beyond body and mind. The soul inside the body is immortal according to spiritual science of India.
   
   Jainism and Buddhism does not believe in a creator God. These religions say that people can upgrade themselves to immortal God.
   
   According to these beliefs soul is immortal and body is mortal. We are the souls and not the bodies. Souls use bodies to reside in. Hence, mundane souls transfer themselves to one body to another.
   
   These mundane souls,attaining right perspective and knowledge starts acting right. This is spiritual uplift of a soul. These souls can achieve immortality and can rest in peace and joy for ever.
   
   As no one wants to die, immorality is always preferred.
   
   Thanks,
   Jyoti Kothari

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Jyoti:
      My mistake, the "Hub" I wrote and wanted you to read and respond to is: "Soul" not "immortality."

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         JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         OK. I will read the same.
         Thanks,
         Jyoti Kothari

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            qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Jyoti:
            Ok. Thanks for the response..:-)

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               JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Qwark,
               Did u like response in "soul"?
               Thanks,
               jyoti Kothari

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                  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Jyoti:
                  I always enjoy responses...pro or con.
                  I answered your response and I thank you for offering it...and for taking the time to read my "hub." :-)

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Jyoti:
      I asked for "opinion" and that's what you provided.
      Soul is certainly naught but "opinion."
      All religious belief is based on "opinion."
      I have a problem in understanding why people get so zealously/passionately involved in that which has only "opinion" as a foundation?...even allow "opinion" to guide their lives and actions.
      To me,that would be absurd.
      Can you help me understand the power inherent in religious "opinion?"

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         yolanda yvetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         All religious belief is not based on "opinion".
         The Christians belief is based on Truth, not opinion.

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            qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yolanda:
            Respectfully, please provide me with one, just one "truth" i.e. "the real state of things" founded on religious belief.
            Thank you.

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               yolanda yvetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               The whole of the Bible is the foundation for the Christians belief.  I can't speak on any other religion.  But the Bible is 'truth'.

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                  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Yolanda:
                  TY.
                  We now know the depth of your understanding of English and exactly how and why you could make such an absurd statement ref. "truth."
                  May the "Force" be with you too.  :-)

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    TLMinutposted 13 years ago

    I don't know what that FACT has to do with my answer but believers usually believe as Glass Spider said:
    
    They also recognize that humans are like no other animal on the planet; we speak, we change our environment, we have an intricate brain that can hold many TERRABYTES of information.
    
    In the Bible, God said "Let the earth bring forth..." about animals but not humans. So even though we're animals, we may be tweaked animals, a bit different, and therefore have a chance for a different end. Or not.

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       qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Tlminut:
       Can't consider you to be a credible chatter ref. my question.
       Thanks for givin' it yer best shot tho...:-)

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    TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years ago

    Why do non-believers want to reduce humanity to nothing more than mindless labels?
    
    You know, NASA can--at least according to them--see for light years, millions of miles, and they can't find anything in the solar system or the known universe that compares to our species.
    
    Is that not special enough for you?
    
    Perhaps some people hope for something more than just being worm food. Whether they're right or wrong, it isn't as though you can disprove the theory.

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       earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I see no need to disprove religion, it does a fine job without any help at all!

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          yolanda yvetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          You couldn't disprove religion.

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          TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          And yet, you do often take the chance to make sure people know you think religion is silly and God is psychotic. That's cool.
          
          In my opinion, some people's faiths are more rational than others.
          
          My biggest point here was that IF you start out with the assumption that you (or your species) was specially created for a purpose--which is where believers (NOT non-believers) start in their thinking--then it can be considered logical to think that the creator entity might have made permanent creations like himself. If you're not a believer, then you're not coming to the question from the same place. Since those people ARE believers, THAT is why they believe in immortality. That's the answer to the question that was asked. Proving that that is true is a different thing altogether, and not what I was going for. I don't care if it's true or not...that's the just the "logic" behind the belief.

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    AdeleCosgroveBrayposted 13 years ago

    Every religious group on Earth is equally convinced that they are the ones who possess the truth, the right way, the right god(s), etc.  Not one religious group ever says, "Well, actually, that other group are more accurate than we are, and they know more."
    
    The subjective nature of truth and religious experience and belief has already been debated for millennia, and will continue to be so.
    
    With regard to immortality, which is the subject of this thread, I can offer some non-religious, measurable and entirely practical solutions.
    
    Take a look at the work of Aubrey de Grey at  http://www.sens.org/
    
    Also, read through the Q&A section of the Cryonics Institute's website at http://www.cryonics.org/

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    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    @Qwark,
    There is no reason to disbelieve soul. It is not necessary that every thing be proved in labs.
    
    People did not know about Quark few decades back. Does it mean these were non existent at that time?
    
    People did not know about gravitational forces before Newton, does it mean that it was non existent at that time?
    
    Most of the scientific theories have been proved wrong by the scientists themselves after few years. Theory of evolution is also challenged many times and not yet established fully.
    
    How can one believe on those proofs?
    
    One may or may not believe in some thing.
    
    Thanks,
    Jyoti Kothari

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