If not even Christians can agree on Christianity... then is it doomed to fail?
Do we need to simply let Christianity continue the way it is and once it is gone start a new faith?
In my opinion there needs to be 1 Christian church, 1 Christian Bible, 1 Christian Faith. If that can't be done then I believe that Christianity is doomed to fail.
I started another thread similar to this one but it was soon turned into the whole Atheist vs Religionist fight. So this thread for the record is not about whether one believes in God or not but is about how do we save Christianity, if that is even possible.
well you have asked an age old question. if you read the bible then you will see that there are a number of things that just won't allow things to add up. and, if you ask 10 different ministers you will get 10 different answers. so , aside from people feeling a need to be part of a religion, i don't see how the religion has made it this far. god is a definite, i think, religion. . . . anybodies guess!but, a new religion requires a message from god or a comunicator with him. and i think our enlightenment just won't allow for something like that anymore. very good article
Can you save something that is ordained of God? Man cannot do it. It takes God.
But SirDent, don't you agree that there is a huge amount of division and bickering within the Church. Surely there is room for change. I mean, like it or not, the Church is full of fallible humans. Even assuming the "Sacred Truth" of Christianity, it is as plain as day that there are many aspects of the way it is practiced by real people that, well, leaves a lot to be desired
Christianity is, at its most basic level the desire to be like Christ. At the end of the day it is a way of thinking and acting. Christ was the TRUE role model and as long as there are those that believe that his teachings and the teachings of those who were important to the faith are worth preserving, then the rest of it is irrelevant. Churches exist because of Christians, it is not the other way around.
Unfortunately, Jesus' work, the True role model, wasn't preaching religion. His teachings were not even religious related.
I agree with that 100%. Most religious people of any faith spend far more time preaching then they do practicing...that is probably the single biggest problem!
I agree with this also but I have to add. Any message that is preached was first received by the preacher. If you go back to the Old Testament prophets, they all had to live the message they preached.
The Sacred truth of Christianity is Jesus Christ. Bickering is the way of humans. The main tenets of Chrisatianity are the same even though different denominations have different rules and rtegulations.
Jesus Himself said a lot of things that turned people away. One thing he said caused most of his followers to turn away from Him. He even asked the twelve disciples if they would leave Him also.
Maybe the question itself needs some looking at, ie., maybe there is a distinction between the (so-called) eternal truth regarding Jesus Christ and the possibility that one day there may be no-one left to believe in him if the Church doesn't get its act together (I don't think this will ever happen, but could it happen even in theory?)
Let me try and show an example. Jesus spoke of the church as being the body of Christ. There is only one head (Jesus). The rest of the body is made up of parts. The hand cannot do what the foot does, etc. . . Things may seemt o be out of order at times, but they are going in perfect order.
But even if we accept that the message of salvation is eternally true, for all time (I don't believe in this, but whatever, just let's say that this is the case), could there ever be a time, in any case, when no-one actually believes in it. I mean, even in theory. (I guess your answer will be that the End Times predict that the elect will be taken up into heaven, therefore there have to be some elect to BE taken up into heaven. Did I just answer my own question)
You did give a partial answer. There is a time when none will believe it. We are coming upon that time right now. It used ot be even though many might not berlieve it, they would at least have a little respect for believers. There is very little respect for anyone anymore.
Hey SirDent, Why do you think that is happening?
Because people don't want to answer to God. They want to find their own path so they have nothing to worry about.
The problem is, that in doing so, they reject the very one they try to find.
But, do you know why?
Isn't that free will, at it's best?
I found this statement to be quite strange coming from you. You're usually biased to religious text and you come with this statement.
How is it a problem that one uses their own free will to live life? And, then you say, "they reject the very one they try to find?" - Who said they were looking for any God to begin with?
Mine is general nature of curious, as to gain knowledge. So, please indulge me. I mean, no offense or anything else. Just trying to understand more.
Even atheists are searching for something. They might not know what they search for exactly, but it is God. The problem is that they won't find Him until they look for Him in truth. God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth.
No matter what they think they might be looking for, they look for God. (see above)
What type of knowledge do you seek?
Even school teachers were taught by other school teachers. Every tiny bit of knowledge that is taught was taught by a man or a woman. The knowldge of man is foolishness to God. Can man make himself taller at will, etc. . .?
To answer your other comments, You asked, "do I know why so many don't want to answer to God?"
Men are inherently evil. This includes me also. The mind of man is dark and full of mischeif.
You then asked, "Isn't this freewill at it's best?" It is freewill for sure. God will not force anyone to come to Him. When a person makes a decision, they should at least make one that is informed, wouldn't you agree?
Many reject the notion of God simply because they can. Others do it after finding out that they cannot manipulate God. There are many reasons I am sure as to why they reject Him, but it boils down to not wanting anything to do with Him.
You're right, there is very little respect for believers now (and I am guilty of this too, as I am sure you see from time to time).
So, I guess maybe we can "parse" this question into two threads:
1) Christianity will one day have zero adherents
2) Christianity will not have failed when this happens, because this was the plan all along.
How's that. How'd I do
I think Christianity will survive whatever imperfect people may fall short on. Religions on the other hand are debatable. Christ was clear in the Bible that he has many issues with the churches, and I don't think that has improved.
If Christians read our Bibles and do our best to be Jesus to the world - Christianity thrives. He said He came to divide us, seperate His own from the world. I think unity is unrealistic. Just my thoughts, Holly
Please note I did not say anyone else should think what I think, no one was called stupid or heathen, yet I stated my opinion.
Good point. I mean, we are talking African Christianity, Latin American Christianity, Korean Christianity, evangelical Christianity, Roman Catholicism, Russian Orthodoxy, and so on... Unity, indeed, seems like a fairy-pipedream (if that is an expression...)
Why would you want to save christianity?
1800 years of wars and arguments that continue to this day should have convinced any rational person that it is not a religion that is worth "saving."
Just take a look at some of the things this irrational belief system throws up. Once you jump to the ridiculous conclusion that there is an all powerful god, all sorts of people get the idea that they have some authority when they do not.
Hence the arguments and fights and usury of others.
There is a very good chance that Christianity will bring about its foretold "final conflict."
That is the major problem with madness, it can fulfil itself.
I have been trying to explain this to some of my religious friends. This is what the bible says:
1. Go around behaving like an arrogant so-and-so, telling people what to do.
2. People hate it when you go around behaving like an arrogant so-and-so, telling them what to do.
3. People will hate you.
"Self fulfilling prophecy," is what this is called.
Yea, I just set up my earthquake machine to cause the greatest earthquake the world has even known. Then of course I have a bomb set up inside a volcano to make it erupt and be the most violent eruption ever.
Sure - "Going forth and multiplying," and "having dominion over," without regard is not causing any weather changes.
Nor is continuing to do this likely to cause any "natural disasters."
But - well done on avoiding the statement I made.
Very christian of you.
Jesus would be proud.
Pride is a sin. Jesus is without sin.
So, it is impossible.
Thought you would have learned at least this much.
Sheesh. I was being sarcastic dj. I keep forgetting you guys do not understand irony.
Well, I was being tongue-in-cheek semi funny, semi serious.
You might get to like me (a little at least) if you gave me half a chance and get to know me.
PS. That was what I was kinda hinting at when I made the comment about making peace with...you know...
I am at peace with you dj.
Why do you think me disagreeing with your beliefs is a war or something? I am just arguing with you in the hope that I can get you to see how damaging your beliefs are to those around you.
This notion that you know what a god wants and feel the need to tell other people will always end in conflict. Always.
Christianity will likely shrink to a point, then remain fairly constant, some denominations may almost entirely die off (perhaps Mormonism?) but it'll always still be about. It may eventually end up with an almost underground status, but probably not. Only time will tell.
I can see that there will be more division among Christians but it will continue to fluorish,
There is a great clash of the negatives which will bring and end to this age or day and night and the dawning of a new age where there is no night and perpetual day.
Religion against religion whether they be christians, buddhist, atheist agnostic or just plain unbelievers etc.
Nation against nation, man against brother.
This would bring the final great realisation of truth (christ).
Some would then inherit life by losing theirs for truth and others inherit their kingdom of darkness which they lived for.
I'd be surprised. Hinduism has lasted for millenia. Buddhism and Judaism for 2,500 years. Islam for nearly a millenium and a half. And Christianity for 2,000 years.
I think these big religions are like successful species. They can adapt to many niches.
Even in the industrialized, post-Enlightenment West it is going strong.
Islam thrives in Africa, Asia, and the Middle-East. Even if it was originally spread by conquest, that was a hell of a long time ago.
Buddhism has figured out how to survive in India, China, and Japan... all very different societies.
So, I'd be surprised.
Who knows. It could morph over time into something devoid of vitriol and poison. The United Church of Canada is like that (a mix of Presbyterians and Methodists). The Church of England is pretty tame.
...And there are lots of Christian theologians in the Episcopalian/Anglican tradition who try to take rationality into account for example...
yes I like all of that, and locally we have a huge input from many fine church people.
The thing is, religion or not people help if that is who they are, and many work with the church because they are already well organised to do just that.
It would work even better without religion though!
There are still some light within these religion and this light is is the positive and longevity of them.
The time is coming though when all this light , the positive will be stripped leaving the negatives only and warring is the way of the negative.
Christianity has gone from it's humble beginnings of that psychological desire to have a parent figure, that "someone watching over me" void that needed to be filled for a sense of safety, to a nightmare. This of course happening AFTER the development of a cognitive mind in homo sapiens. NOW, it has started wars, promoted the death of innocent people (the crusades, salem witch trials, etc.), pulled people into scams to give away all of their money, and produced an endlest list of registered sex offenders.
Now that we understand more about the world around us (the earth isn't flat, bushes don't talk to people), I think people will begin to doubt more and more this fairytale, and start thinking for themselves for a change.
Christianity (like the roman empire) is on its way out.
I do hope you are right, that would be logical and sensible.
Religionists do not see the psychosis in the need of their god to be worshipped.
Hey Earnest, man you need to get some new lines. Telling people that what they believe in is psychotic? really isn't going to do anything, except get people upset.
I can understand, if there is a discussion to be had, and I know there is one to be had, but your continued "psychotic" wording isn't going to help.
Just a thought.
I don't really think it is psychotic to believe in God, even if I don't believe it myself.
I do believe in other things that cannot be proved, like human rights, for example. I also believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, and that I really am sitting here right now. Strictly speaking I cannot know these things for sure.
I do, however, think that some religious doctrines are simply illogical, ie., they contradict THEMSELVES.
But I do not see, theoretically, why you could not have a religion that was both internally consistent rationally-speaking, and did not contradict science and the evidence of our senses.
Actually, believe it or not, ALL religions are based on two things - (1) A Code of Ethics, and (2) A Higher Cause.
They don't need to make sense. Nor, do they have to have any cause equal to that of humanity, it must be a Higher Cause, such as "The Betterment of Humanity", it deals in everyone.
The definition I've given to you, is the business based definition, which covers any religions which accepts donations or gifts.
My definition would be :
- some kind of code of ethics
- a conception of the "spiritual realm".
I guess I don't have a problem with contradictions as such. I do take offence at ideas like the one that says it is ok to pray for the starving millions, ie. that this is AS GOOD as acting to help them. Or that an "all-loving" God would damn (in some sense) anyone but the most evil of people.
I also think that this whole evolution versus creation business is absolutely insane.
I am of the understanding that something is missing in the Evolution Theory which nullifies the Creation Idea, but then Christians will claim, in some way, shape or form, that God created Evolution, which is what's been happening lately.
This is something I will never agree with or say. This is my opinion.
What I mean is that I think the IMPORTANCE it is given is insane. Jesus coming to earth, all of that, could still be true, in theory, without Genesis being true, literally. Man could still have inherited original sin in his monkey past (I'm ad libbing). Maybe it's because I'm not American. Just can't get it
What I mean is that the other countries I have lived in are not really having this debate. I mean, generally, Christians in other countries simply accept that state-run schools are bound to teach non-religious ideas.
I'd have thought that Jesus' attitude to the Romans spoke volumes. I am sure he did not recognize their legitimacy to rule (no Jew did, I am sure), but he didn't try to influence their institutions! He just accepted that believers in God would always be outside the system, so to speak.
I have already heard it from some others.
I had generalize the "Christians" because, many from here have already made the claim. Nothing against you.
Perhaps if the doctrine of Christianity was turned toward self transformation and not an external saving entity, then it's possible it will survive. When Christians come to understand that they must go through a transformation process as was shown by 'Jesus' it may endure. Otherwise the Rapture button will only lead to a big let down.
God is not about Christianity (read as "religion"). He is not about religion.
He is about people!
Save Christianity (the religion)? WHO CARES? I don't.
It may go away, BUT the message of Jesus Christ is eternal.
A follower of (believer in)Christ is called a Christian.
But, calling yourself a Christian does NOT make you a follower of Christ.
Of course, I am well aware, that many here on H/P have NO IDEA what I just said!
Organized religion of any description degenerates into irrelevance sooner or later. The protagonist's teaching is forgotten and the empty rituals overwhelmingly gain importance. This has happened to Buddha in the past and Jesus would soon meet the same fate(!). Buddha is not followed in his land of birth any more. But individual obedience of jesus' docrine is visibly discernible to be increasing in many societies and Christians as against Christianity will thrive.
The Vatican is a Nation, a very wealthy one at that. As long as it remains there will be an organized form of Christianity.
As long as there is sheeps and shepherds
Spots on Leopards
Hands like rockets
Of preachers in pockets
As long as there are people who are easy to brainwash, then no Christianity has a bright future!
Would you say then that you have never been brainwashed?
And I don't limit that to just religion?
Yes of course I have been brainwashed at some point, take christmas if you are a parent, you may be brainwashed into buying certain types of toys your kids don't need, but because the tv advert says the features of it, I pay like a spending zombie!
christ will return soon and he is going to tell us all off. especially the pope
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