If the good deeds naturally follow from submitting to Christ, then we would expect all (or almost all) those who submit to Christ to be doing good deeds. It doesn't have to be 100% perfect, of course. But still, we would expect some kind of consistency in general terms. We do not see that consistency.
When we have (for instance) in the 19th century white Christians quoting Bible verse and arguing doctrine in favor of slavery, while other white Christians quote the very same Bible and argue doctrine against slavery, clearly there is no consistency. If the same book, with the same claims to being divine truth, can be used for and against the exact same issue--180 degrees apart--this is a profound contradiction, rendering the book useless.
We have Christians prior to the world wars arguing that war and militarism was God's will--and they had Biblical verses to back it up. Today we have Christian peaceniks arguing against all war--and they have Biblical verses to back it up, too.
Centuries ago, monarchy and absolute rule were essential to Christian belief. It was believed that the king was God's regent on earth, and power passed from God to king. Today, most Christians would reject that utterly, and argue that power passes from the people to the government.
I could cite countless more examples of contradictions within Christian history. The contradictions--becoming especially virulent in recent centuries--point to the overall decline of Christian belief over the last half-millennium.
Beginning with the Renaissance, human attention (in the west) shifted away from the divine and the next life, and towards the world and this life. And it continued to shift more and more over the centuries. Hence the medical advances, scientific insights (e.g. age of the earth), political liberalism, social tolerance, religious freedom, etc. As adherence to and rigid belief in Christianity declined, all of these things rose.
Today, Europe and North America are no longer "Christian" societies in any meaningful way. Explicit secularism and atheism are on the rise, as the doubts and skepticism of millions of people toward established traditions and doctrines (doubts that had been around for a while) come to the fore, and people realize they can forsake religion altogether and their lives will be no less prosperous or meaningful.
Sure, there are some holdouts, some "true" Christians (whatever that means) remaining. But most of the so-called Christian population in the first world is "Christian" only in name--they lead secular lives and lifestyles with secular concerns.
There will probably always be Christians in the world. Heck, there are still Zoroastrians, and that religion lost its significance thousands of years ago! But as a meaningful influence on human affairs, Christianity is on its deathbed.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/71670?p … ost1572878
Christianity could resurrect from its deathbed if Jesus’ teachings are followed by the Christians instead of the misleading concepts of Paul, Scribes and the Church.
"If the good deeds naturally follow from submitting to Christ, then we would expect all (or almost all) those who submit to Christ to be doing good deeds. It doesn't have to be 100% perfect, of course. But still, we would expect some kind of consistency in general terms. We do not see that consistency."
I am assuming of course that Islam is "ALWAYS" consistent??????
self serving BS Paar- nothing more but bandwith waste.
Secularist10 wrote,a nd Paarssury replied in a new forum:
“Your If the good deeds naturally follow from submitting to Christ … government [etc.] …”
Secularist10 You have made a convincing argument, and have included information that I do not deny. However, when one reads the Book of Mormon, it has a great explanation of how things of the nature you speak of evolved (here in the Ancient Americas), you will discover how God and His prophets, and the earthly powers of the era, worked through this problem. For the time that God’s guidance was followed, and the people remained true to His Gospel, Peace and Prosperity was the result.
While I do not argue the fact that nations or tribes, etc. have risen up against each other in wars and contentions, I submit that the people on the side of God were always victorious. Those who had prophets, and the Military leaders who were following God’s inspiration were especially blessed in their defence of their respective Nations and peoples.
There is opposition in all things, and if the ones who are being oppressed turn to God, they will also (eventually) win their freedom, through God’s grace. If you try to say that the winners write the history, look at how the Book of Mormon records great slaughters. These people who were reduced to a mere remnant of lineage managed to record, in great solemnity, the downfall of their once-blessed and great civilization. The parallels of opposition and conflict, in their own right and uniqueness, are a well-known part of the ages; where history was not scrupulously recorded and preserved (who knows, because of time-constraints, or scribes?) oral tradition was undoubtedly resorted to, although this is more subject to lost or changed nuance in transmission, especially where poets were given the task of communicating the history in a “memorable” song or flowing manner. I believe the world will uncover (i.e.: God will reveal) even more of His children’s ancient history as he sees opportune to further testify of the Gospel message of Peace unto man and goodwill. Even if we had all been alert to these revelations, past and present, we must understand the caution of opposition to Good (Gospel) advice. This concept has to be recorded also as part of the package - we just have to see the difference, especially if records lose their nuance and basic clarity for whatever reason.
what do you think of Christianity's chances of spreading in peaceful Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia?
The American have a hold on Saudi Arabia; so the American Christians and the like could endeavor to propogate Christianity ove there; but they know they cannot spread mythical Trinity.
I don't mind though.
Hard to spread anything when the 'peaceful' Muslim leadership would cut your head off, isn't it?
But you would know something about that, wouldn't you. How is you particular branch of Islam doing in Pakistan and Indonesia?
Seems like the only place they can practice away from persecution by the other branches of Islam is in predominately Christian societies.
that's the difference between us, Paar...
i DO mind when people of different faiths can't worship (or not worship) because of a tyrannical government.. even if they don't have the share faith as I do.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Christianty cannot be on it's deathbed because the one who started it all is still alive.
Where is your prophet?
Nice response SirDent.
I don't mean to knock paar if anyone is indoctrinated early in life it is those people over there, so he follows his reality. English is not easy to speak nor to write.
The constrasts between whatever religion paar is and christianity is a wide gulf indeed. The Koran and the Bible differ in so many areas for paar to switch is a huge effort and he has to read languages that he is not familiar with, like english perhaps. I don't know if the bible is written in paars native language, but i hope that some words do strike home in his heart because love is the answer to everything.
yes i bumped my head last night
i forgot there's a topic....
concerning the topic.. the book of revelation is quite definite about how and who will end this world and what will happen after that, Sooooo to assume that christianity will die, will never happen. There will be a great falling away, 2nd thessalonians, mostly because of the elapsed time and because "knowledge shall increase" (science for one) :
Daniel 12:4 But, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
(Consider 'jubilee years' dear sis and bros to find an approximate year of return, it is close).
God has often said in His Word.. a remnant shall appear and that he is in complete control of everything. The mayan calendar will not predict the end of the world, although i do think there will be yet more natural disasters in the near future.
I believe that Christianity is alive and well. http://religions.pewforum.org/reports. If you don't like that one, then there is always this one: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Daily … 0718.html. The scoop on the matter is that both polls and studies are showing that over 75% of the United States claim Christianity as their beliefs.
You guys will believe anything won't you?
Would you mind elaborating on that? What I believe is what I believe! I have simply posted a couple of polls. If you don't like them I am sorry. I am sorry to hear that you don't like Christians.
No - you got me all wrong - I love Christians - I just hate their ridiculous passive/aggressive beliefs.
I can appreciate your position. You and I don't know each other. So when you say that you love Christians but hate their beliefs, aren't you really saying that you hate Christians? It would seem to me that at some point you went to church, what exactly changed your mind about it.
No - I am parodying the Christian hypocrisy that god loves the sinner and hates the sin.
See? Now you know what that sounds like.
Common sense, logic and observation changed my mind. Of course I went to church - I had no choice in the matter. As soon as I could - I opted out and nothing I have seen or heard has persuaded me back unless to see some architectural or artistic feature.
I would have to agree that God really does love the sinner! I would also have to say that from my stand point going to church, reading my bible, and praying has dramatically changed my mind about life in general. You see I never had the drug problem. My parents stayed away from church while I was growing up. In my teenage years, I of course developed my rebellious streak and drove my parents crazy as I am sure most teenagers do. I then found out about the dangers of alcohol. I developed a nice little case a day habit. Yes, I was a functioning alcoholic. That was until the day I had a life altering experience and changed course. I live everyday thankful that God has given me one more day. Do I celebrate "Easter!" I do but not for the Easter Bunny. I celebrate because he died so I wouldn't have to. Does that make me weak and hypocritical? I don't believe it does. By the way, I do hope you continue to enjoy the architectural and artistic features that church features present to you!
What does this mean? You are simply witnessing at me. Shall I return the favor and tell you how my freedom from religion and god cured me of some self destructive habit? Will we be even? I see your "functioning alcoholism," and raise you a "Crack cocaine habit"?
This is why your religion is so destructive.
Yes - I enjoyed a tour of the private areas of the Vatican last summer - astounding the wealth they collected by raping several continents for hundreds of years. Hundreds of frescoes by Raphael and Michelangelo that are hidden away. Beautiful and sad at the same time.
It would be nice if they would, at least, share those items with the rest of the world. Open a museum or something. Hey, they could even make a few bucks.
I know, but it is not the sort of place you can allow the general public. After all - the pope lives there.
I am planning an article showing the hundreds of photos I took, but life got in the way. Plus - I don't want the atheist priest who took me on the tour to get in trouble.
You would have to elaborate more on that. By the way, as for me witnessing at you, I would have to say possibly. If me talking about my freedom bothers you I am sorry to hear that. This conversation was started when I posted a couple links to polls that were performed. By the way the ABC poll is from a non-religious source.
Here is where I am at. I will never personally change anyone's mind about God. I understand that. I am only attempting to engage some folks in a discussion about Christianity being dead. I have seen no one offer any substantial proof. I am sorry you have a problem with God. Please feel free to contact me when you have substantial proof that America is dead as a Christian nation.
Christianity is dying. It is dying for very good reasons. It is destructive, divisive and nonsense. It makes no sense at all, promotes ignorance and destructive behavior and teaches people they are incapable of developing morals and ethics for themselves.
This is why it is dying.
I don't have a problem with god. There is no such thing as god other than an outdated concept.
I have a problem with religious zealots and willfully ignorant people who think there are only ten different denominations and insist America is a Christian nation. Not the same thing at all.
Sorry you are incapable of understanding that. My problem is with you. Not a non-existent god. See? Stand up - be a man - and stop deflecting things away to a non-existent god. You are the problem. You. I have no problem with your freedom. You have a problem with mine it seems. You keep spouting nonsense - I will keep telling you it is nonsense. Deal?
How many Christian denominations are there again?
Sounds more like you just exchanged one vice for another and that the underlying issues of what lead you to alcoholism in the first place have not been resolved.
As well, I often hear of these so-called "life altering experiences" but have never heard one explained and now it manages to suddenly lead one to believing a god exists.
No, I do believe the underlying issues actually have been dealt with. I have been counseled about it as well as seeing my primary care physician about my alcoholism. I know I have a problem. Can you guess which step I am on. My last drink was December 17, 1999. http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
As for being able to accurately explain my experience, I am not going to be able to explain it to you any better. I am not a pastor or preacher.
Secularist10, God has purged His people many times thru out history of hypocrisy. A Christian is a piece of work in progress. We are actually inspiring Christians; inspiring to be like Jesus. Praise the Lord, we get full credit for trying with intent of love in our heart. Christianity is a life style, a personal relationship with God thru Jesus. Viewing from the out side, one see the collective effects; but God only wants one faithful person for His works and judges each heart on it's own merits. Judging Christianity from the outside, you might see anything. Remember, God saving plan is One person, Jesus; not an army of Christians. One choosen person by God can do mighty works of salvation and life giving joy.
More drivel. The only thing you are inspiring is disdain for professing Kristians.
At least try an make sense.
How come you rarely post an argument? All your comments are the same, just a dismissive of what someone has said. We may not agree with what people post here but the majority at least do make an effort to express a thought or view. It wouldn't be so bad if you actually said something witty.
Que unfunny dismisive from Mark again.
What choice would Americans have to deny their religiosity?
They would never get a job in public office, many employees would not hire them either, there neighbors would ostracize them.
The intolerance of non belief is rife with Glenn Becks, O'Reilly and all the other right wing loons. These guys run America.
I believe in truth it would be less than half.
Everyone has a choice about their faith. If someone believes and then denies their faith, its a shame. Personally I have to be able to live with myself in the here and now. If my neighbors are concerned that I am a Christian, I am sorry for them. If an employer decides that they don't need me because I choose to believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, then all I can say is that I was looking for a job when I found that one and I will be looking for one when they send me packing.
When it comes to Beck, O'reilly, and the other loons, you have a choice, turn them off. If they really are loons as you say they are, why listen? I personally have enough going on in my life that I don't need to hear from them.
I believe he is talking about the intolerance of non belief and not the intolerance of belief.
This video may shine some light on the problems being discussed;
I found it rather disturbing myself.
I would have to say that it is definitely disturbing. I can now see his point about intolerance of non-belief from certain public commentators. I still stand by my assertion that if he is bothered with their comments then don't watch them. No one is forcing him to turn on Glenn Beck.
Maybe he's just worried about the amount of people that are succeptible to believing what they are told by apparent authoritative figures.
Im just speculating here of course but I know that kids for example are very succeptible to brainwashing and I for one think it is wrong for religious beliefs to be transmitted across the country by people asserting them as true.
Kids trust adults and I am very strongly opposed to children being given religious teachings under the false pretence that they are proven facts.
I agree with you. The father has a right to raise his kid as he sees fit. It's not my business to say what he does. In the same respect, it's no one else's business to say how I should raise my kid. The school she attended is a public school, I believe that her rights were violated. What if down the road, she wanted to "check out" religion? Would her father be okay with that? I know it's just speculation and at the end of the day it's her choice.
Im in agreeance with you on the whole. Of course there are some instances where some parents require some intervention from outsiders.
Im all for letting kids learn about what they want to learn and if they want to know about religion then I would back that 100%.
Of course, I would make sure they at least try to get their information from impartial sources unless they are at an age where they can decide for themselves if what they are being told is true or not.
@ Independent writer
As I have said many times before, what people claim is one thing, what they do is quite another. If a pollster asks an average American, "what religion do you follow," what will they say? They surely can't say Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion.
So the choices they are left with are agnostic/ atheist, and Christian. Well, they probably believe in a God of some kind (although they might not believe in hell), and they might very well "believe in Jesus" in a very general sense. They might even wear a cross around their neck every once in a while! Moreover, "atheism" carries a very negative stigma in much of modern American culture. So they surely won't label themselves that.
So we are left with "Christian" as the answer, including whatever denomination's church they were dragged to as children.
But do they actually live their lives according to Christian doctrine? Evidently not, because the culture they have constructed is not very Christian. It is filled with sex, money, worldly pleasures and worldly priorities.
Yes, there is a minority of Americans who are really Christian, in belief and in action. But the vast majority are not, never mind what they claim. I have written several hubs relating to this topic.
Here is a primer on just the rates of church attendance alone--it's notably lower than what people claim.
In reality, at least 70% of Americans do not attend religious services on a weekly basis. And they call it a Christian nation, lol...
Definitely an interesting post, secularist! I didn't grow up in the christian faith. I wasn't ever drug to church! That would be the same for my younger brother. He however is a devout Bhuddist. This would personally define logic, because him and I have debated religion and faith many times. If Americans aren't smart enough when the pollsters come around to say they are personally a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Do they really have faith in their beliefs? My younger brother will defend his faith heatedly! He believes what he believes.
I do also believe that "churches" are in trouble. It is truly sad that attendance is the way that it is. So called Christian churches have exchanged the truths and teachings of Jesus for whatever they have found to be more important. It bothers me that so many are leaving the church.
Jesus did not die on the Cross; that is the death of Christianity.
I can appreciate your position on this matter. The questions you need to ask yourself is if Jesus didn't die on the cross, then why did his twelve disciples die a martyr's death for him? Why didn't Christianity die out after this alleged fraud? If he didn't rise from the dead, where exactly is the body of the Christian Savior?
You are not only annoying, but desperate.
How can you convince anyone that Jesus did not die on the cross, when the Bible CLEARLY states that He did. It was foretold centuries before, and it has been confirmed by many eye witnesses. You are too young to have been there to give a different story.
Since you are a person of faith, you must therefore admit that your assertion is nothing more than a faith statement. No different to the ones who say He did. At least we have written, eyewitness evidence to contradict your claim.
I think you have not studied the Bible intently.
They hurried to take Jesus to the tomb; what hurry the Christians had?
It was a matter of hurry for the Jews as they had to observe Sabbath on Saturday; the Christians don’t observe it.
The Christians took him to the tomb hurriedly; simply as they knew Jesus was alive and they should give him the required treatment as soon as possible. Only very close friends of Jesus did it, secretly; others did not know as to what was being done.
There were no eye-witnesses from amongst the scribes; they all had fled away from the scene of the Cross; leaving Jesus crying in agony on the Cross; they never believed Jesus sincerely; later they invented mythical stories for their own vested ends.
Where on Earth did you get all this from?
Do you have any comprehension of anything you read?
There is no mention of any of this version you wrote. NONE.
In fact they declared Jesus DEAD, when they were about to break His legs.
The Centurion was well acquainted with death and dead people. Yet, he himself said, "surely this must be the son of the living God". Let me copy and paste it for you, so you don't say it's just "my opinion".>>>
Matthew 27:54 - Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Mark 15:39 - And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost*, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. (* that means he breathed His last!! DEAD)
If you are going to talk Bible, talk accurately, since "accurate" is so important to you.
Jesus' Burial, and the Watchers at the Tomb
Matt. 27:55 to 28:1; Mark 15:42 to 16:5; Luke 23:50 to 24:1; John 19:31 to 20:1
See the machination of sinful scribes carving their god or son of god from thin air.
Paar, I have to point out one problem with your argument. You kept referencing christians at the moment after the crucifixion. There were no christians around. These were jewish people following jewish customs. Getting the body into the tomb in the timeframe they were rushing to was their custom. Those you have a problem with came along well after that moment.
They were also rushing because it was almost the sabbath and they didn't want him left unburied until after the sabbath. I watched a very interested special on the History channel about burial habits back in those days...I did some research and that changed my whole outlook on a few things...
...according to the bible Jeus died on preparation day (sixth day) and was buried before sunset (one night) spent the sabbath(seventh day) in the grave (one day and a second night)and was gone in the morning of the first day...so 2 full nights, 1 full day...and a few hours each(max) of 2 other days...Not quite the full 3 days and 3 nights as predicted...
Yeh, that three day thing always had me scratching my head. I've read the reasoning people give that it actually was three days, but it never made sense.
Thanks for adding the clarification.
Anytime...you are one of my favorite thinkers on here...
It is actually three days because that is how long the Sun remains at it's lowest point during the Winter Solstice.
Thus - the God Sun dies and rises up to the heavens on the third day.
Thanks Mark. That is the first explanation I've ever seen that makes sense.
LOL.. I like that one Mark.. I'll have to remember that for my next in person arguement....LOL
It is a lot simpler than many think. That is the understanding I have as well.
The Christians need not have been in any rush; if Jesus was to ressurect from the dead, as christians put it, they could have left Jesus on 'as it where is basis'; rather it would have suited them most as then Jesus could have resurrected before the very eyes of the Jews for whom Jesus had promised to show the sign.
The only reason why Jesus's friends rushed was that they knew Jesus was alive and needed immediate treatment; they took Jesus to a lonely tomb which was spacious enough for 3/4 persons who were to give the treatment; and it had two opening for ventilation so that Jesus does not get suffocated.
Christianity could resurrect from its deathbed if Jesus’ teachings are followed by the Christians instead of the misleading concepts of Paul, Scribes and the Church.
Another worthless topic from a Muslim, addressing Christian issues.
I don't mind him posting. He, like the rest of us has the right.
It's all the useless threads that go nowhere I find tiresome.
Not to mention, his constant critique of the Christian faith, as though he were som authority. I have asked and told him to stick to what he knows. Let him post Muslim stuff. I'd rather he did that then tell me Paul, Scribes and Church misled all of us. A load of hogwash, is all it is.
Never once has he come clean, Just runs off and starts another thread.
He should just write hubs, and state his case for anyone interested.
How is it any funnier than all the other irrational belief systems? Not seeing any difference here. And paarsurrey is unlikely to either notice or respond to your deliberate slur.
I am attempting to be polite Mark. Thanks for making me otherwise, since I must honestly respond that you are right. But, I'll be honest, I try to pick and choose my words when paar is in the vicinity. He has an awful habit of grabbing a few and starting a thread.
oh, and I warned him already that if he didn't come clean I would comment on his religion. His choice. Not mine.
m not fan of religions and am quiet anti religion but his religion is far more inclusive religion than many other religions...though all religions are man made but his seems to be more friendly with co existence than others...
I have nothing against his religion, but I hate a lie. When I ask someone politely to step away from a lie about me I assume a decent person will do it. He did not. I guess I let my irritation with this fact get the better of me. It did pull me down to the level I found offensive. Thanks for commenting. I wasn't willing to see this until people jumped in to defend him.
Christianity on its deathbed..........................................................MUUU-HAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAA!
Where do these people come up with this stuff?
Yeah. It's true. The sooner it's dead he better.
Christianity is losing ground to the atheists; unless they reform there is no future for them; they are already 32000+ plus denominations; they better unite on Truth.
Islam is only 600 years behind. Soon it too will be so fragmented as to be powerless. Don't worry. It's a good thing.
Seriously paarsurrey, I've never seen a Muslim spread such misinformation as you. I expect it from atheists, but not from Muslims. It's painfully obvious to me you've done not one shred of research on Christianity that doesn't come from an Islamic apologetics site, and as much as I hate to say it, some of these sites are among the most ignorant around (answering Christianity for instance). It's fine to not know about another religion, but to jump around the internet and spread lies is something I find extremely deplorable. For one, 32,000 is an absurd, made-up number, and secondly, UNITY DOES NOT MEAN UNIFORMITY! I have friends who are Lutherans, baptists, methodists, calvinists, Arminians, and Presbyterians, and guess what? We All believe in the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith!
This is untrue. Your religion has been fighting for Jesus for 2,000 years now. There are actually 44,000 different denominations and you most definitely do not agree on the fundamentals.
How long since the last inter-denominational war has it been?
I hope you are not suggesting this as any sort of endorsement for your war-mongering religion.
Yours is at least as bad - probably worse. Now you have invaded America and Europe - where you have freedom of religion - yours is going to split into hundreds of little cults as well.
When you start fighting with each other - do me a favor and make sure I am out of the firing line.
You know I don't fight; I am always peaceful; though you may differ with me; no compulsion.
Me too. Never provoke; don't be ticklin' or nothin'.
Still - i dint speak complete garbage like you do so.
This iS why your religion causes so many conflicts. You are incapable of reason or rational thinking.
- An urge to do or say something that might be better left undone or unsaid
- An irrational motive for performing trivial or repetitive actions, even against your will
- Using force to cause something to occur
Would you care to post a link citing 44,000 different Christian denominations? I can personally think of about ten denominations.
Not quite 44,000, & I Quote;
Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 38,000 Christian denominations, many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable.
The site does not authoritatively call all groups "denomination". There are many groups that would not even be considered Christian by a most fundamental criteria. These are merel churches/assemblies/groups that have called themselves (whatever) to have a sense if identity, or belonging. Rightly or wrongly, these things happen. More often than not, these groups/churches need to register a name for the purpose of legally renting/owning property, have a common voice etc. So, it's not necessarily that they are starting/creating a new denomination.
Having said all that, the "Church of Jesus Christ" is an invisible body of people that are His followers, irrespective of what sign happens to hang above their doors.
China is a great example of this. They have a handful of state sanctioned "churches/denominations", but there more believers (underground) than all the western world believers put together
Jesus Christ is Lord. That He died to take away the sins of the world. That he was buried, and on the third day He rose from the grave.
He now gives new life to all those who believe in Him, and He will raise them up at the last day.
He shed His blood for the remission of sins, and is the ONLY advocate between God th Father, and mankind. He will save to the uttermost, who COME to Him.
Thank you so much for allowing me to share this vital message!
You state your conjecture as fact. Your doing it again!
If I have the "fact" wrong, please tell me the REAL fundamentals of Christianity.
1. Christ in all probability never even existed.
2. The old and new testaments do not make sense when fully understood as they contradict each other and what jesus is supposed to have said.
3. The bible is a mishmash of stories some of them dating back to ra.
4. In 2,000 years not a single piece of evidence to support prayer.
5. Hundreds of falsified "miracles" not one has stood any type of investigation.
All of these things are well proven.
You are selling a myth about an invisible no show god who although omni everything allows his own creation to be deeply flawed then blaims the creation he made.
The DNA "god made" is faulty and currently being reconstructed by mere mortals. Just for starters.
And.. I did not need to reference scripture
You need to read the question I was answering.
This is totally irrelevant.
My answer was about the fundamentals of what Christian churches believe as core values.
I said nothing about creation, the Bible, history, Old or New Testaments. Sorry!
You have mentioned all things mythical; this is the disease with which it suffers:
• Jesus created nothing; everything remained the same as was before his birth of Mary.
• He did not die on the Cross; he escaped death on the Cross and died in Kashmir, India.
• He lifted nobody’s sins.
• Jesus did not resurrect from the dead; as he never died on the first place.
• Jesus is not going to come again, physically and literally.
• As per Christianity; he could not save himself from a death on Cross; so Jesus can save nobody.
• Jesus himself denies that he has to do anything with Trinity:
[5:117] And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things.
[5:118] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.
[5:119] “If Thou punish them, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them, Thou surely art the Mighty, the Wise.”
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=116
I see no replies to the above quote.
No defense of the 44,000 denominations, Mark?
I was certainly closer than "10"
Wikipedia said themselves they did not list all of them. What a silly attack to make on me. Does it really make any difference whether there are 38,000 or 44,000? It aptly demonstrates none of you can agree wot god sed and it certainly is not ten like wot the troll sed.
No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.
Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
Sura 8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power including steeds of war to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides whom ye may not know but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
More hateful words from the "other" good book.
From the bible.
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
Also full of hate and loathing. Religion is disgusting as far as I can see.
Christianity needs reformation or it is going to finish; it is already on its death bed.
There is revival breaking out all over the world.
It's nowhere near deathbed, as you put it.
No dj there is not. There is a backlash all over the world and membership is falling. Churches are even going broke thank goodness.
Membership is fast growing in Asia and beyond.
Oh - yes - I know. The least educated countries where poverty and deprivation is rife will lap this up the same as medieval peasants used to. Lots of US religionists go off spreading the word. The less educated the people the better. Lots of them in Africa. They are still burning witches and jailing homosexuals down there.
Education will eventually eradicate this nonsense - we are already doing so in many parts of Europe and the US.
Overall - membership is falling.
We know you would like that to true, aka-dj. But the facts are the facts. Eventually even the US will catch up to the age of reason and leave childish and superstitious religions behind. But don't worry. It will still be around for a few more years. You probably won't have to watch it's last gasp.
revival? They've been saying that for decades (accompanied by people jumping around like they're high on sugar and babbling nonsense)
dj, You are absolutely right. Christianity will never die.
i guess you missed the reason that God wanted to do this: I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their BAAL worship. I will put an end to all the IDOLATROUS priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and BOW to the SUN, MOON AND STARS They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship MOLECH, too. (child sacrifices)
I guess you missed this simple plea from God:
Zephaniah 2:3 SEEK ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; SEEK righteousness, SEEK meekness: it may be ye shall be HID in the day of the LORD'S anger.
the book of Zephaniah is a book that declares the destruction of Gods people IF they do not turn from their evil ways of serving other gods, including creation worship. Gods solution is simple, repent and turn from their ways and in chapter 3:9 the day of hope is declared that his people will sing again and rejoice. God did send His prophets prior; to declare what would happen and how to get out of it. He did not just spring it on them, they always had time to obey what the prophet that God said to them and also, years of history of Gods blessings and his displeasure's.
God would have stayed his judgment on Israel IF they had turned from their idolatrous ways, but they did not and God had to judge because He brought them out of slavery and into the promised land and many other wonderful works and because of His guidance, how can God allow israel to sin and not be judged, non-judgment would be a declaration of God doesn't exist. 'Look we can sin and not be judged' would be the attitude then. Its a case of having all the power and still having to follow a certain protocol. Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't but if ya don't, worse things will happen.
Nice to quote just a snippet of scripture but really, wheres the context. I hope this short expansion of the book of zephaniah helps clarify Gods position.
I suppose God could just go away and not be bothered but i would miss Him. And lets not forget that all that happened to these people back here is dealt with in the 1000 yr millenium reign where they get to experience Christ and make another choice. So the death and slaughter, even this, God will make moot because God is Love. So you can boo hoo about all the deaths but its all taken care of by God. They get a second chance and a better chance with Christ. "I am the way and the door and all must pass through me". ALL and then there is the prophecy of the dry bones in ezekiel 37.
enjoy. read in a king james please
What is astonishing is your insistence that nothing is wrong in your feeble minded god killing for any reason. Why would a god need to kill?
Your statement on the other thread that god controls the elements would mean he attacked Japan and Haiti as well as causing the tsunami in Indonesia.
Just plain sick!
i know its all soooo far over your head that anything said will not obtain safe harbor at the dock of context.
you're beginning to sound like beely with his starving people and disney land
There are examples of God controlling weather in specific circumstances and there are times when the weather patterns are left to their natural cycles. For me to declare the mind of God in this situation, i cannot do, neither will i guess.
If you say that God has to run around and fix every stupid thing that man does, like building a nuclear plant close to water or in an earthquake zone, then i would say that you are wrong. When you can admit that people want to run and do run their own lives without God then perhaps you will understand the bigger picture.
I also noticed that you did not read my explanation of why God does what he does. I might assume you hastily skimmed through the post and did not read it.. you might want to read the part about damned if ya do and damned if ya don't. Please don't study it, that scares me when you do that.
You also missed the part about God and the 1000 yr kingdom, which i know is both new news to you and to difficult for you to wrap your head around. Sorry but i had to include it, perhaps i shouldn't have.
good luck with this. i would like to suggest you take your time, examine the links and before you respond, mull it over for a while. Your reactionary posts get in the way of your ability to learn anything in here.
Not bein critical, just tryin to get your right foot forward.
Yes I strive to have your enormous intellect like most others in the world would!.
I have seen mud smarter than that!
i would be flattered
if you had any creedence at all in this field
and resulting to name calling is at best, childish
i guess you are having a wee little tantrum
how morally superior and very very intellectual
give it up earnest
foolishness follows you like stink on a skunk
Perhaps you could share with the whole forum specific instances of god controlling weather patterns; as you put it. Without talking about the flood referenced in the bible..I think we'd all like to know who you think your god considered worthy of being murdered.
Failure to respond with an incident will, of course, be an admission that this statement you made was a lie.
Luke 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
parting of the sea
Sodom and Gomorrah
famine of egypt and joseph
as if i lie
Just as I thought. You do lie. Stop claiming your god controls the weather. He obviously doesn't, except in stories not meant to be taken literally.
Thats your opinion
of which i do not agree
thanks for the slander
in my opinion you are wrong.
over and out
I do not play in pits of impossibilities
earthquakes in red, tetonic plates in green and nuc plants are the blueish dots
Proverbs 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be accountable with the cords of his sins.
Proverbs 5:23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.
"God is Love"
God is an abstract concept??? Is this what people pray to? An abstract concept? Like in, "I pray to Love. Maybe Love will help me win the lottery."?
And all this time I thought God was a fella who waved His Magic Wand and made the U in 7 days...
I kinda think that TODAY; God is pouring out his spirit upon the individuals of the world ... kinda leaving out the middle man So To Speak.
Guess I'm late to my own party! Lol.
Yep, I stand by it. But there is definitely a growth in Christianity seen in the third world today. And Christianity and religion in general thrive in places that are affected by poverty, backward cultural attitudes and ignorance.
Isn't it nice to know your belief system is popular among the poorly-educated, sexist and destitute? Ah, nothing like having friends in high places...
The rich world is no longer Christian--it has become (more or less) enlightened, wealthy and forward-looking.
One of the biggest threats to global stability and peace is the spread of established religions in the developing world. It's not very difficult to imagine a 21st-century Crusades between the vehemently Christian populations (primarily in Africa and Asia) and the vehemently Islamic ones.
So to look at this from an opposite prespective.
That would imply that those countries that are educated and progressive are better off?
Are you serious?
They have achieved what exactly long term.
See,Im looking at figures like increased crime,povery and homelessness on the rise.
Teenage pregnancy-Abortion-Diseases etc etc and these are in the affluent societies.
Not too smart if you ask me.
Ummm... You spend time in New Zealand and America. Interested in moving your family to Sudan? Or Iran? Or Pakistan? Lol. C'mon.
Goodness, if you think teen pregnancy, disease, crime and poverty are a problem in the first world, what on earth do you think is happening in the *poor* world?! LOL! They call it "poor" for a reason.
I don't think I need to cite statistics to back me up--at least I hope not, because I would have thought this was obvious--but I guess I can if I have to.
We see similar trends/ relationships among wealthy countries (i.e. there is better health and lower crime in Sweden, for example, than in US, and Sweden is less religious than the US).
No, I understand poor when I see it.
And I certainly know where Id rather reside.
Truthfully a nation that doesnt care for its elderly or youth is doomed no matter which country you care to look at.
Sooner or later.
P.S Incidently according to Wiki, Sweden is 70% Lutheran
Right, you'd rather reside in a rich country with medical technology, internet and job opportunities. That is known as the developed world. And that is where Christianity is dead or dying. Most rich countries do much better than the US in caring for the elderly and at-risk youth (appropriately, a good example being Sweden).
Nope, sorry. Most Swedes are default Lutherans because they were registered as members of the national Lutheran church at birth. Has little to do with actual beliefs. Source: Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden )
"Religiosity in Sweden plays a limited role compared to the European average, with 23% of Swedes expressing atheism or irreligion. Less than 4% of the Church of Sweden membership attends public worship during an average week; about 2% are regular attendees."
"The Church of Sweden services are sparsely attended (hovering in the single digit percentages of the population). The reason for the large number of inactive members is partly that until 1996, children became members automatically at birth if at least one of their parents was a member . Since 1996, only children that are baptised become members. In 2009, nearly 72,000 Swedes left the Church of Sweden, considerably more than in 2008 when 50,504 Swedes left the Church of Sweden." (my emphasis)
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Dont be sorry.
Because I got my info from Wiki too
I guess we could both pick an scratch a round like a couple of hens and find something eventually to suit our discussion.
Now I know why Wiki is not terribly respected for being legit.
(Basically its a site where anyone contributes 'so called facts') or offer up official stats)..
Generally speaking I detest the arrogance of Western Countries who think because they have more money and developments,therefore better off ,then boast its because we are better educated and know better!
No they should know better ( because they have had more chances),but I think they just get dumber (IMO)
Lol, so when the stats turn against you, you ignore them... interesting...
The Wikipedia stuff is well-cited to the hilt. A number of articles, books and websites are behind it all. You can find even more confirmation of the secular character of Sweden and most of Europe across the internet. It's not really controversial. Not just Europe, of course, but all rich countries--Canada, Japan, Australia--have similar trends.
I don't think anyone will be confusing Frankfurt with Birmingham any time soon.
Well, arrogance is one thing. But I'm talking facts. Objective measures of human wellbeing. Nobody is arguing that rich countries are populated by supermen with bigger brains and better genes. But a longer life is better than a shorter one, wouldn't you agree? More food is better than less, no? Clean drinking water is better than dirty, isn't it? Opportunities for girls to go to school, or locking girls in the house to learn how to cook and clean?
Arrogance aside, I think I'll take a rich society where men and women are equal and courts look at rational evidence over a poor society where men own women and judges use ancient holy books to mete out justice.
"That would imply that those countries that are educated and progressive are better off?"
Yeah, the Swedes, Norwegians, and Danes are having a really hard time with all of their crime and so on.
Christian religions are dying, but believers seem to be holding on. They lose confidence in their church and religion but not so much in their "faith." Fractalizing has always been around. Luther did it, and had a huge following, and then from there, it was all over Europe. Christians are a very unhappy bunch historically. They don't like their church, but they keep reinventing their own brand of it.
I don't see Christianity going away any time soon. I just see variations on a theme of them trying to reinvent the same old thing.
To all my friends on Hubpages: My Reply to Christianity is on its deathbed.
The "Christian" Religion you speak of with church processions and rules/regulations heaped upon Man by Man...is already dead. Dead Works. Those rules and regulations were the exact things that Jesus himself spoke out against so boldly while he was here.
So odd that people would carry on in such a manner...Jesus is more concerned in a person's heart then in self-proclaimed rituals that man believes he must take part in. That is a fact. Also, I believe that he would want his followers to follow the very Word of God. But Us Humans...Being Humans tend to make things slightly askew...and a whole lot harder! (and I am the first to admit that I can sure get things ...slightly askew!)
However...where there is new life everyday is in the other "R" word "Relationship". In the "Relationship", Jesus Christ becomes new everyday...in someone's life who chooses to follow him...not in clinging on to some of that ol' time "Religion". (rules and guidelines per a denomination!) In fact...I dare say that one should follow words that are set down according to the Bible...if one wants to strictly follow anything. Religion is only mentioned 5 times in the Bible.
The Bible has many ways of saying things...that People call "Religious Rules". But when actually read with a heart that yields to God...many things become clear as a simple basis for you to live a very wonderful, and yes...even less-stressful life (if you are willing to take God on his true word...hard thing for anyone to do 100%...on this crazy planet.)
In the name of "Religion"...lot's of things have gotten screwed up. And anyone can say and has said...and done things in the name of Christ. The best test for that: See if it parallels Christ's own actions...while on this Earth.
On just going to Church without building a "Relationship" with Christ...here is what one Christian Singer (from the past) Stated: "Going to Church does't make you a Christian...anymore then going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger!" Keith Green
I said all this in "Peace" and "Love"! If you say otherwise...that is your right...just as this is my right!
(I just like to see some clarity on the simplest things of Christain Beliefs.)
Without organizations religions die. It's a historical fact. You can build all the relationships you want with personal gods. You will die and they will die with you. There is no organization to keep them alive and your kids will abandon your beliefs within a couple generations.
Sorry to be the one to have to tell you.
Muhammad had no intention to make any organization; he only let others know what was Revealed on him from the Creator-God.
2000 plus years so far...and still growin'. Sorry to have to bring reality to the table.
The average major religion last between 3 to 4000 years. The Catholics brought you this far. Now it has all fragmented into cults. It's dying. Face it
The Mormons and JW- the claimants of being only true Christians don't accept Catholics except heretics; they give no credit to Catholics.
What about the shite and sunni split, Paar? What about the your persecuted Ahmadiyya sect? What about all the groups you denounce for their Islamic militancy? What about the secular Muslims who distance themselves from the more extreme groups that blow themselves up?
You seem to point out differences of opinion among groups that call themselves Christian, but don't mention the fragmentation of your own religion.
Looks like Islam is a hodgepodge of different groups that kinda hate each other
So what? the Catholics say you are a heretic.
Paarsurrey, on the contrary, The leadership of the LDS church has publicly praised the Catholics for the preservation of many important texts. They also regularly work with them on various theological issues, respectfully, while still never jeopardizing the LDS established doctrine, FYI. Please don't spread rumors.
Except for when the Mormons blast Catholic priests for pedophilia. And that's pretty much most of the time. Odd thing is that there are lots of Mormons in prison for the same thing. And not really an indictment as much as it is a statement about humans. This type of activity is not about a religion, it's about a human condition that has nothing to do with religion. It's just that religions find a way to make it very divisive, when virtually all religions have those among them who do such things.
Hence, why the need to mock and point at all, since churches are made of all kinds of humans with such heinous behaviors.
Daniel, The Catholic “leadership” who are most in frequently personally in contact with the regular public (i.e.: Priests, etc - maybe not the Upper Echelon … to my knowledge … ) have a sore record of this type of terrible sin and abuse; it speaks volumes on their associated dogma of not being allowed to seek a wife and raise a family, thereby following the admonition to “flee fornication”, and the commandment to “be fruitful and multiply”. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants all their members to get married (man to woman, under God). This way, our leaders and saints will follow those two blessed teachings of God. Furthermore, to exhort people unto repentance is just what leaders should do, as they teach the Gospel to those under their stewardship (which is the four corners of the Earth, as the Ecclesiastical admonition of Paul commands in God’s Spirit - see Acts 28: verses 28 - 31). Nevertheless, all can be forgiven through repentance and the Atonement of Jesus Christ (which is what Christianity really is all about - being a new creation, for our own good, and for the Glory of God).
Marriage does NOT solve the problem of pedaphilia, as evidenced by married men continuing to engage in it! Here is a perfect example:
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ … sentenced/
How you can offer such a nonsolution is beyond me! Such abuse crosses the boundaries of being single, gay or married! It is an ILLNESS. Yet finger pointing among religionists and solutions such as "getting married" to solve such problems are simply signs of ignorance. If your religion proposes marriage to solve this problem, I think they've lost the battle miserably, as evidenced by the news link.
Point is, it's just as prevalent among one religion as it is another. I'm sorry you don't see that.
The only "death" Christianity is taking is the one that Christians commit against each other, as well as any other religion, for that matter.
The Catholic problem is so widespread it seems, as they are in the news all the time because of it. The LDS church does not have this widespread problem, and if those sins were ever commited by a leader - they would be removed from their office immediately! We (actually, the LDS leaders, right down to the local branches) also are duty bound and sworn to report to the Lawful authorities (meaning the POLICE) any situation where a minor would be in danger. That is a fact, my friend.
As far as the human population in general (even in every religion), there is a small percentage (I believe I've heard it scientifically reported to be around 7%) who suffer from pathalogical Mental Health Illness, including pedophelia. Let's just MAKE SURE there is NEVER one with such who is placed in an office of leadership!
Wide spread and publicized by outcries of the public, who finally realized being silent would only perpetuate the problem. In other religions where extreme conservatism and control dominate, victims are more prone to silence for fear of retribution by God, leaders, family etc. Hence far LESS publicized, until years--even centuries later--it finally come to the open.
There is no less guilt for such things in your religion than there is in any other. Mountain Meadows comes to mind. The controversies over early polygamy (before it was outlawed) and the subsequent break off sects who perpetuate the old ghosts. No religion is guiltless.
I'm not in complete disagreement. Just don't set your own religion up as the light when it clearly has its own ghosts and skeletons to deal with.
Well, what's great about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that there is more Holy revelation coming! BTW, I never suggested that this church does not have its problems, only that they are the problems of man, because nobody is perfect, no mattrer what office (or not) you hold in any church. What is scripturally cannonised in our church however is this:
Doctrine and Covenants 121:37
"That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man."
Mormons believe that the Catholic church fell into apostasy and their founder, Joseph Smith, "restored" the original gospel. Jehovah's Witnesses' premise was orginally based on the 144,000 souls being saved at the rapture, which obviously has some problems since there are more JW's than that now.
But still, variations on a theme. It's easy to spin what seems to be a tiny bit of logic into something worth creating another religion over, when in fact, that "logic" lacks a lot of fact, is based on perception and opinion more than anything else.
I see no evidence of this Christian "spinning" (the same that political pundits do) ever stopping. I only see evidence of it growing. The idea that churches are failing is a separate aspect, and is a symptom of dissatisfaction of believers.
Hey slarty. Problem with your theory. Islam. Christianity and the Jewish faith won't lay down as long as they're around. As long as the concept of God exists there will be fighting between the three over whose got dibs on being God's favorite.
It's an old story and it always ends the same way. They fight among themselves and eventually all get replaced. This time they are getting replaced by atheists. Bye bye superstitious nonsense. lol...
Nah. Sounds like a plan though. I believe it was Beelzedad I told two months ago, you're tilting at windmills.
It's a big world with big problems. Fear will always turn people to prayer. But, I suppose if we find a way to raise the world out of poverty, stop the wars, feed the hungry, put a roof over everyone's head and educate them all, you might be right.
So, ride on Don Quixote.
Fear will not always turn people to prayer, sometimes it makes them jump off buildings because they fear what has happened will be too much for them to take, or they fear the OPM they lost will haunt them, for instance.
Fear does sometimes turn people to prayer, repentant people, I would think.
I would not begin to believe it was my place to judge any other person, but I suspect repentence is not why many people pray.
Well I don’t know the percentage, but fear of consequence (not necessarily from God, but as a result of their circumstance, or anticipation of what is afoot) drives some to cry to the heavens for help, which is a form of prayer.
Another form of prayer is of course is one of grateful praise for the moments of epiphany one may experience from time to time, or a prayer of thanks for the family, friends and country which is yours, or for a multitude of other reasons. Talking to God is like talking to a loving parent who you trust enough to divulge your cares, and to embrace in peace and happiness.
I love talking to God and I know He loves hearing from me too
I think fear blocks any relationship.
Perfect love (Jesus) casts out fear.
Yeah. I'm sure he's dead, if he ever lived. No one gets out of here alive.
Yeah. John would say that to try to keep his fantasy alive. Looks like the old Emperors New Cloths trick worked it's magic on you, eh? You see his new threads don't you? lol... Some of us are just not that gullible.
Ok. I think I understand why you're posting. I was not saying fear alone is why people pray..I was stating that a belief that the world would return to atheism would, in the end, prove to be a false hope. Fear being the last stronghold of prayer.
Well Christianity has had 2000 years to rid the world of poverty hunger and lack of education. Funny that it was German king who was the first to make education mandatory, not the church. In fact like many other religions such a Buddhism and Hinduism, Christianity celebrates poverty and ignorance. The church didn't advocate educating the masses. They might think for themselves.
Before the second world war my ancestors were well off and they were patrons of the church, giving money for the poor in Africa and the missionaries on a monthly basis for well over a hundred years. Until, that is, my grandfather found out what was being done with the great bulk of the money he gave. He cut them off and scolded the bishop. Coincidently, a bomb went off which was set under his house a couple days later. The two incidents are probably not related, of course.
A secular society can hardly do worse where poverty and wars are concerned. If it did nothing it would just be following the status quo.
I don't disagree with you on any count. When you look at the amount of cash that flows into churches and the trickle that comes out to help anyone, it is tragic. I believe in your cause, to a degree.
Organized religion is a bane to society on many levels. I am simply incapable of imagining its demise. I don't see Islam losing ground and, to be quite honest, I would be very uncomfortable seeing Christianity and Judaism gone and Islam left as the only option for people who chose to worship.
Once someone gets a handle on the problem of the muslims I'll believe in your cause.
the Muslims are 600 years behind Christianity. They are living 2000 years in the past. They come to countries like yours and mine and after a couple of generations their kids abandon the faith because they can. They can't in their own countries.
The problems we are all dealing with now are due to a backlash because their politics and resources have been plundered by some of the Western nations for the last few hundred years.
After England and the USA deposed the democratic government in Iran and imposed a dictator the people hated, a Muslim fanatic took over and booted the US and England anyway.
We imposed a homeland for Israel because no one wanted the Jews in the west after the war but we felt guilty. No one thought of the people that were already there. So now there is tension. Who could have guessed?
Geeez, they still remember and blame us for the damn crusades. They don't forget like we do. To them, a thousand years is like yesterday.
We have been fighting each other in the west for thousands of years, but when the war is over we forgive and forget after a few years. Not them. It's their culture to remember.
So now we pay as the Muslim world flexes what muscle it has. But this won't last either. Eventually even they get tired of dictatorships and theocracy. We have seen some major protests and the removal of dictators lately.
There are movements in Iran that want change and more freedom. When they are ready it ill happen.
In Canada the Church was only thrown out of politics in the 1950s, when the Catholic Church helped the Quebec government persecute JWs. After that they had the "quiet revolution". A province that had been strict Catholic for ever before now has one of the highest atheist populations in the country. Why? They got fed up and saw the light.
People are people. As long as they are forced to go to churches or Mosques they do. But as soon as there is freedom to do so they start to leave. It has happened all over the world.
In the US there has never been an imposition of religion, so it has gone another way. They have gone from their churches of origin to build their own cults and religions pretending to be Christians. The bible belt doesn't have a dictator but the mindset of the people forces everyone to conform.
That too shall pass.
Look. Religion is going anywhere quickly. It is dying but it is a slow painful process. Like I have said before, I give Christianity another 200 years before they reach 10 to 16 percent of the pop. The Muslims will hang on a little longer but after this nonsense is settled in the middle east, which could take a lot of time still, they will settle down like the Catholics did. In a thousand years they will all be small oddities like the present day Zoroastrians. Mostly harmless.
But don't worry. If the Muslims outlast the Christians, you don't think the rest of us are going to sit back and let them take over do you? They will have to behave. And if they do the religion can live out it's remaining life span in peace.
It's all about human nature is all.
Hey Slarty. I read your post, shook my head the whole way through it and started a reply. Everything I typed, I realized halfway through that history supports your post. You're probably right. I've been focused on my fears of the short run.
As the world shrinks and we all get to know each other through the freedom of the internet it will change, slowly. I see evidence of this already. I guess the question is, will we all survive the process.
The question is always: "will we survive the process." Like Nostradamus and Qwark, I predict catastrophes ahead, both natural and man made. lol...
You and I will likely die in our beds of old age before it is all resolved with the Middle east. But perhaps our children will live to see peace there. There are no guarantees. But man kind is adaptable and resilient. I am as always guardedly optimistic.
Oh...Ok Sure Thing, Bub...?! Only 'cause you said...and I know that all imparted wisdom on all matters concerning religion must surely begin and with the knowledge you possess...
But...at least you got alot of enthusiasm!
I don't need it. I'm right because it is a fact. Look it up. Do the math, Your days are numbered. That you don't like it isn't my fault lol...
Whether I like it....of course I don't like it!?! (Oh brother...here goes, again...)
Why should I look it up...? *Do you have all the records of every church membership and the ones that profess to be true followers last year...and the one before ...and so on. So, as we can make an accurate assessment? If so please post that information...I would like to see it. That would be some impressive piece of information...right there...I tell 'ya!
(*Just to save you time...my church has showed a direct increase in both categories for years)
I don't have to look it up. Statistics of amount of Christians is not applicable here on this discussion of Christianity being on its deathbed.....smarty pants. You either is or is not one. And my point is...it has lasted this long...it will last even longer...no problem. Just 'cause you present low numbers as your firm belief...that has no validation in our beliefs. We only want as many as we can get!!!
Even Jesus himself said "the door is opened wide...but only few will enter" That right there tells me that Christians are far outnumbered. We deal with it...can you?
Sorry...this here religion will be here for awhile with or with out your permission or belief that it can substain itself. We will trust our own vast and deep sources on an evaluation of how well our Christian "religion" is able to remain throughout the ages...Thank you anyways...Ta-ta....for now! Thanks for playin'...Bye, Bye! Toodles! Good Luck with your fantasy reality!
( How niave is that line of thought anyways....? Unbelieveable. Another one on Hubpages to spout off all their "all-knowingness" about things they absolutely know nothing about.)
It has nothing to do with my belief. It is a statistical fact you can look up from all the different census information in the world. You too lazy to do some research? I can give you numbers. 16 percent of the world pop is atheist. Where do you think those numbers come from? Mostly from the Christian churches, I was born into Christianity and became and atheist. I'm not alone.
So 16 percent are atheist. That's up 14 percent from 100 years ago. Canadian statistics that just came out say that 35 percent of our teenagers and university students are now atheist. That's up from 15 percent 20 years ago. They will have atheist kids. In 20 years from now it will be 60 percent.
Give it a hundred and religious people will be at 15 percent of the pop.
If you are too lazy to study, why bother arguing? Better wake up.
I am sorry I have to disagree.
Faith in God and Jesus is as or stronger than it has ever been.
Church attendence ? Don't know!
There are more believers that do not attend church as there are attending.
NOPE!, don't ask for proof cause I can't provide any ; any more than you can for your claims.
The stats do not lie. Census from all over the world tell the story. The believers that believe may believe as strongly as ever but there are less of you and will continue to be less of you. I can prove my claim and a little research on your part will show you the same thing. If it were otherwise I'd say so.
Why is it so many Christians just say what they think without doing some research in to the matter? It's like you all have your eyes shut and think that wishing is going to change things.
Does a believer have to attend a church building in order to be counted in YOUR census?
The best way to measure someone's beliefs is to see if their actions line up with those beliefs. For example, almost all Americans have sex or have had sex outside of marriage. Now, that's a sin in Christianity. It doesn't mean they can't be true Christians, Christians make mistakes I GET THAT.
The point is that, along with other lifestyle choices and behaviors, taken together, indicate that the majority of Americans are not practicing Christians, even if they say in poll after poll they "believe" X, Y or Z. Look at people's actions, not their words. And look at the culture their actions have created. That's where the real evidence is.
Some of us seem to judge too much according to what we can not see. Can you see who I am?; what I did today, yesterday?
You judge me according to what you preceive, from what I write.
If I took pictures and posted them or included many testimonials you wouldn't believe them!
Cause as humans we tend to judge others according to our evaluation of ourselves and our own experiences.
That is all that we hear and/or see.
What we previeve the world to be is a reflection of that which we see in ourselves.
Yep we all judge ,or discern ,weigh up ,think about, change our minds, lol
We are think machines
YEP ! We do the best that we can, given what we were giver to do that which we must do.
Forever knowing that we will never be able to go as far as we could have had we not have wanderd off track as often as we did.
Daddy said to come as far as I can ... then (Only then)
will he come the rest of the way ... and bring me home.
Evidence is evidence. Call it "judging" or whatever you want.
Ignore it at your peril.
You have your evidence which you accept AND that which you don't!
Welcome to the physcical world.
ME too; don't know what to think about it ? But I have come to accept it.
Oh dear sounds like someone hit a nerve.
Christians all around the world are doing a fantastic job ,but the majority of people who are not interested will never know.
Because its good news ,therefore doesnt appear on the usual TV stations.
But you will see the facts via news and out of the mouths of missionaries in many churches!
Good news may save souls ,but it doesnt sell ie sponsors are more interested in the Charlie Sheens of this world.
Yeah. That's why there are still poor and hungry people in the world 2000 years after you started collecting money. Sure your missionaries are going to tell you a bunch of good news. That's so they can keep milking you. How naive can any one get? lol...
So folks the Christianity is on its death-bed; unless the Christians reform and they condemn Paul,scribes and Church and stick to what Jesus did and believed; they won't live as a religion.
Do you always have to come on so strong...what's a matter there Mr. o' Brian....Your right and everyone one of us poor Christian's....is just plain wrong...WAAAAAH!
What part of: "I don't have to look it up. Statistics of amount of Christians is not applicable here on this discussion of Christianity being on its deathbed.....smarty pants. You either is or is not one. And my point is...it has lasted this long...it will last even longer...no problem. Just 'cause you present low numbers as your firm belief...that has no validation in our beliefs. We only want as many as we can get!!!
Even Jesus himself said "the door is opened wide...but only few will enter" That right there tells me that Christians are far outnumbered. We deal with it...can you?"
Can you not read. You can read can't you? I mean obviously you would have to be able to -to get this far!?!
I ain't to lazy to research...I just ain't interested in your contrived figures...for reasons I mentioned....but that you didn't manage to read or acknowledge. Poor you...here you are doing your best to make a point...and it is like...a "non-factor" compared to what I just stated. But, I'm sure you will come back with another unintelligent point to get the last word in....Watch!
What does that mean: "We only want as many as we can get"?
I see your problem. You think I want you to go out and find MY statistics. You are obviously not acquainted with rational thought or logic. They are not my statistics. They are the facts from all over the world.
Your religion boasted almost 100 percent of the western population not 200 years ago. Now you are down to less then 75 percent in most places. Muslims have taken some of that, the rest was taken by atheists and agnostics. So mister, numbers don't matter, that means you have lost at least 25 percent.
What happens when you lose more? Eventually you will be no more. Christianity will be left to a number of smaller and smaller cults.
You don't like the facts? I don't give a s**t. Be too lazy to think. Live in your fantasy world. It can't do you much harm. And watch as Christianity slips into oblivion.
But it's ok. As long as you believe I guess there will always be Christianity. lol.... What happens when you are dead? Do you care? I didn't think so.
Religion survives quite well when it has violence and force on its side. As soon as it is cut off from the army and the protective legitimation of the state, and forced to compete peacefully in a marketplace of ideas amongst other beliefs, suddenly it shrinks in significance.
For many hundreds of years, Christianity prospered and expanded for this reason. It was primarily soldiers and warriors who were responsible for making a place for Christianity. This was especially true in the Americas, Africa and Asia.
In recent centuries, now that Christianity no longer has the physical power of the state on its side, the western world has become progressively less Christian. Religion, including Christianity, is simply incapable of competing against secular science and reason in answering human questions.
And that is because science and reason rely on evidence and logic to answer questions, while religion relies on subjective experience and arbitrary tradition.
This is why in any society that allows true freedom of thought, religion always shrinks away. It's practically a law of nature.
Christianity may be dieing in the states, but there is a revival going on in the far east.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt6ONMTc … ature=fvsr
Christianity is on its death-bed for sure; Jesus died a natural and peaceful death in India after escaping a cursed death on the Cross.
It is for this that Jesus' friend did not give him a funeral bath or the death service; as they knew Jesus had not died on the Cross; later the scribes invented mythical tales about Jesus.
I see christianity is still growing in the countries with little education and poverty.
Growing? How much can it grow beyond 100 percent? That's what it used to be at in most of the world. Even though it is strong in South America, it is not growing. The decline is just slower than in most of the rest of the world. Even Italy, the bastion of Christianity, is 16 percent atheist, which is the world average. I don't know what the agnostic percent is, but in Sweden, for instance, the combined number of atheists and agnostics is 85 percent.
Soon, the rest of the world will look like that too.
"Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says."
I love it when a plan comes together.
EEEWWWW...well if a study says it then....Wow! Must be true!
Why does anyone have to have a denomination in order to believe in "The Messiah" and He that sent them?
answer ... YA don't.
I agree,nobody needs a denomination to believe.
But as a family isnt it good to gather together and share in the same spirit help each other, and sing and laugh and pray and laugh and just be happy.
That is very true! .... as long as we use discernment and know that the reason that God wants us there is to honestly express how we feel and/or what we believe.
If we have to be dishonest as to who we are .... what we believe? ... why are we there?
Sometimes every boat needs to be rocked a little.
If the boat don't accept being rocked; It don't need/want a boat rocker.
And everybody knows that the boat needs rocking in one area or another.
But who am I to say?
Nop. You don't need a denomination to believe. And the less of you have one the better. Thanks you so much for giving them up. It means your religion will die all the faster. lol... wow. You people just don't get it. It's absolutely unbelievable. But funny. I'll give you that. lol....
Religion may die soon?
But faith in God will come into proper focus.
Faith in religion? NA, not my cup-a-tea
I have faith in that which I have faith in ... as we all do.
You do. But what about the others that follow you? You will not live for ever and so your faith or beliefs will not live forever. Whether you like it or not your faith is Christianity. And no matter how many times you claim it isn't it is a religion. Having a personal relationship with Jesus is a religion. Why?
Religion is: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. "
You don't need to be a member of a structured institution. You have a bible you believe in. That bible and your idea of a god or Jesus comes from an institution.
You are religious in the strictest sense of the word. You don't mean you don't have faith in religion. You mean you don't have faith in the institution. Your faith IS your religion. Faith = religion. Institution does not.
It's amazing how many people tell me they are Christian but don't have a religion. The fact that they say they are Christian tells me what their faith is and so what their religion is. It's like saying you are an artist but your paintings aren't art and you have no uses for them.
It's the irrationality of the born agains. It boggles the mind.
The truth is out there; and all over these forums.
But few see it cause they are looking for what they want to see.
Don't matter who we are. That is "A" truth.
Lol, so when the stats turn against you, you ignore them... interesting...
On the contrary ,I exposed a well understood fact. Maybe it isnt.
By the way you were wrong ,they were not my stats or your stats, they came from 'Wiki'
I listen to missionaries from time to time ,read church news bulletins etc ,they are just as factual to me, since they live and work with the very people you and I have been discussing.
Dont get me wrong ,I have used Wiki for various info helpsE ,but its hardly a real Encyclopedia and never claims to be.
All Swedes are not born Lutheran either ,my daughter in law born in Sweden is Catholic.
I do agree with you on one point though.
Finland ,Netherlands do look after the health and wealth of their people much better (it seems),than other Western Countries.
I guess though once you break down everything, the Psychology of it all is this.
Life is precious,and the fact that we can discuss is a gift indeed.
It didnt happen because of anything special I did ,or you for that matter,or even our respective ancestors.
It happened because we were born into 'certain privileges' and inherited resources so to speak.
Sure ,religion ,politics ,mankind all comes into play.
Why did you reply all the way down here? Trying to avoid me, eh...
Yes, the stats came from Wiki, and Wiki got them from a number of sources in turn (articles, books, etc). Again, nobody serious today really questions the idea that Europe is very secular, and the Nordics especially so. As I said, the data and stats are confirmed in many independent sources around the net. Don't just take Wiki's word for it.
The Nordic countries and Japan are considered to be the most secular societies on earth. They also have among the highest prosperity, longest lives, best health, and lowest crime in the world. Pretty strong correlation. We are all entitled to our own opinion, but not to our own facts.
Life is certainly precious. But it sounds to me like you need to read up a little on the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Scientific Revolution and other major movements in the west that shifted society away from devout religiosity, away from a concern with the afterlife, and toward a concern for the natural world and for human wellbeing in this life.
These trends very clearly led to the scientific, industrial and political advances we see in the modern west. Sure Christianity was a factor, but Christianity was also around for hundreds of years before this period, and since then it has declined and declined. And today it is on its deathbed.
You are talking to brick wall here. This one doesn't even know what it said two minutes ago. Complete gibberish is all you are going to get.
She is not going to let the facts get in her way and will fabricate almost anything to fight for Jesus.
Completely brain washed.
Been there, done that. I do it mostly for myself anyway. To test the strength of my arguments against any and all challengers. And to learn new things about the opposition--you know, something about keeping your enemies closer and whatnot...
This is why your posts cause so many wars
Wasnt aware when I hit 'reply' that my post went anywhere in particular? sorry ya lost me there
Since Mark appears to know me better than I know myself ,perhaps you can refer to him instead of me now
Yes I will read ,if you continue to find new literature too.
Truthfully too much head knowledge is boring to me.
Too many people who think they have their finger on the pulse of mankind....and the trends of the Universe..... are in the end guessing or assuming.
Yes. Christianity is like that. What can you do?
Huh?? There's a little reply button beneath each comment in the threaded view.
More knowledge is better than less. Especially for people trying to make claims about the world, and about truth.
Yep ok usually I do hit the reply ,an oversight ,sorry wasnt too major was it
Knowledge according to whom?
Too much head knowledge to me is boring.
I like to mix it up with first hand knowledge too.
Makes it more realistic.
Facts ,figures ,pie charts ,trends, statistics, have their place ,just not all the space if you get my drift.
All kinds of knowledge is valuable. If the question is "how many Christians are there," or "is the number of Christians increasing or decreasing," experiential and anecdotal knowledge are not as valuable as real statistics. In any case, there's nothing numerical about the history I was referring to.
Here's some non-numerical evidence for you: just look at the culture, the lifestyles, the behavior patterns of people in the rich world. They do not live religious lives. There is a minority of people who still take religion seriously, but for the most part people are concerned with worldly affairs, not the afterlife and whatnot.
People used to be more religious, but not anymore.
There have been studies on the relation between religiosity and IQ (I dont bring this up often as its is blatently insulting), and the results show that atheism numbers are higher in countries with a higher average IQ.
Since IQ is steadily increasing, I think it follows that religion should die out (providing the studies are accurate) as IQ rises.
Religion seems to be more common in third world countries where superstition is rife and education is poor. Religion also only ever seems to rise in those countries.
America seems to be lagging behind developed countries slightly although atheism seems to be on the rise there which I think is illustrated by the increase in religious debate in the country.
Of course. IQ, income, wealth, education, scientific advance, security are all correlated with each other. And religion/ religious belief declines as all of these things rise. That has happened in the entire western civilization over the last 500 years, and it can be seen across countries today.
America lags behind for a number of reasons, including greater inequality and more persistent poverty.
I just published a hub dealing with the statistical relationship between religious belief, non belief and crime. Unsurprisingly, the data show that religion is somewhat positively correlated with crime/ social instability.
I have seen many using the argument that american prisons contain a lower percentage of atheists then in the general population which is a statistic I find highly amusing.
Of course if religiosity is directly related to IQ which is possibly related to poverty, then that wold explain the correlation between religiosity and crime since they are both affected by the same influences.
Yes I do agree that in general there is much less 'Religion' in the world today,at least in the areas that there used to be.
What's "head" knowledge as opposed to "first hand" knowledge?
"Christianity on its deathbed"
Humanity is on it's deathbed!
Good one. Now we can find out if Superman really is Clark Kent! Paar, you seem to be spewing anti-christian tripe. You are a very bad boy. You better be careful. Superman gonna spank you and send you home.
Too logical an answer for this learned lot Im afraid
Unfortunately, no one is aware of it. Perhaps it's for the better. We will die with God, Allah and Buddha, Big Bang, 0D particles and magical black holes.
Is there something we can do about it, Bill? If not, then what will be will be, right?
Extinction is a 'law' of nature. No species can escape it. No species is exempt.
So, no. We can't do anything about it, and maybe it's for the better that people live with hope until the very end. The Christian and the Muslim will believe to the very end that they have found the true religion and that they will go to Heaven. The Mathematical Physicists will believe to the very end that they will become post-humanists, extropists, or whatever and startrek to the galaxies thru wormholes or by shortcircuiting time. And I look around and curse God for placing me in such a gigantic loony asylum.
My daily prayer...
"My true God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you such a cosmic Asshole?
You punished Job with physical stuff and then let him go.
You allowed the Devil to tempt your only begotten Son and then briefly tortured him only to put him on your right side in Heaven.
But me you punished by having to listen to Christians and Muslims and Relativists and Mechanics for what seems and eternity.
The pain is unbearable.
This goes beyond punishment.
What did I ever do to You in my previous life to deserve such a sentence?
I can't remember.
When you send Your Four Horsemen on that final day, please make sure that the Holy Horses don't leave their droppings on my shoes.
That would be like adding insult to injury.
I think the responses to this thread are hilarious.
Some people attack Paar for being 'uninformed' about Christianity, and then go on to make equally uninformed comments about Islam.
excuse moi. BUT. Islam calls for the whole world to kneel to Allah. That is allI need to know. Christianity is the same. In my opinion, both are equally deluded.
Perhaps religions as a whole are more emulating of each other than many care to admit. Dissensions, break off sects, fundamentalists, radicals can all be found in any major religious group. Moslems and Christians seem to pave the way with golden stones, from what I can observe.
"Golden Stones"; I don't understand; please elaborate.
Fed up with the fighting? This is not a christian thread by the way. Dear me.
Can u read?
Npo wonder us white men managed to indoctrinate you. LOLOLOL
We're playing with the Christians. Isn't this nice? We know you love it. We see you here all the time. Admit it. You wouldn't come play with the atheists if you didn't enjoy it, right?
Doing well, overall. Sleepless in Chicago, unfortunately, but trying to make my sleeplessness into something productive. How are things in your neck of the woods?
BAD!!!! lol... But no use complaining about it. What will be will be. Guess we're both a bit sleepless. Not many people to fight with at 2:45 am around here. So I posted a new thread. I hope it's bratty enough. Gotta keep em thinking.
Probably sign out for tonight and see what the world brings tomorrow.
So what productive thing are you doing tonight?
Hope you and yours are well.
Writing, thankfully! Only thing there really is to at this hour if one can't sleep. We are beginning to get well. Same to you and all the ones you hold dear! I'll check it out. Might even post more than a hello if I'm feeling feisty!
If I wanted to fight -Id pick a more worthy opponent,surely
To give fillip to Para's rantings and his desire for Christianity to disappear, the broad term Christianity has nothing to do with Christ or his teachings. All the bogus Christian sects will be destroyed by Christ when the time comes. (By the way, do not keep looking up for Christ and His chariot to come tearing out of a cloud. He has already arrived and has been on the Earth for some 130 years)
A real religion (if you can call it that) that will pray to Yahweh will be established by Jesus on the earth in spite of Jehowa's Witnesses. No one will go to hell. There is no hell. Everybody will live happily hereafter. Atheists, murderers, the so-called Christians, Jews,Hindus, Muslims, everybody.
What a nice sentiment. See, Christians? This guy believes in a loving god. I still say you guys with your hell eternal are worshiping satan. I'm almost sure of it now. That's what salvation cults are supposed to be about. Saving us all, everyone goes home, no one is left out.
I have to hand it to you, thirdmillenium. Your version sounds a lot better than theirs.
As a man thinketh, thus he is. Rather than embrace one's reasoning about christianity being in its death bed, why don't you consider your being in your death bed yourself for lack of an object of worship? Man is a creature of worship. If you don't worship your creator, you will worship anything. What exactly do you worship? Your car? Your money?
"Man is a creature of worship."
It's demented individuals who are creatures of worship, not Man! You have to have an IQ barely above that of a potato to do 'worship'.
Case in point...
An ET was sent to Earth to pick up and bring back the most intelligent animal he could find. From their rough analysis, the aliens already had a feeling that it would be a human specimen, but nevertheless sent the expert to cross the T's and dot the I's.
The ET lands in a graveyard and watches as a dog sniffs around the graves. At one point, the dog lifts his leg and pisses directly at a tombstone. The ET makes a note in his log.
A minute later he watches as an old lady walks into the cemetery with a bouquet of flowers in her hand. She kneels, places the flowers neatly in a vase from which she first removed the decayed ones she had put last week, and then kisses the tombstone, specifically in the spot where the dog had pissed earlier.
The ET needed no further evidence. He took the dog with him back home.
What your ET did is what scientific appraoches to problem solution have done to you as you follow - Rule of the book. That is good evidence to show how precious you are to be a result of an accident. ET had freedom of choice against man. It also displays ET's intellect.
"how precious you are to be a result of an accident"
Yeah, my paw banged my maw! Quite an accident!
It is idiots who try to rationalize creation in any form, whether by accident, by God, or by Big Bang.
How do you create somethin' from nothin', beanbrain? Explain the process of this 'accident'.
No, no gods, my children and their children although I would not call it worship. No god would need to be worshiped, that is a man thing. People like Donald Trump need to be worshiped.
You are free to worship Trump of course. How will he reciprocate? Is he really worthy noting that we will soon put him six feet underground??
So folks the Christianity is on its death-bed; unless the Christians reform and they condemn Paul,scribes and Church and stick to what Jesus did and believed; they won't live as a religion.
And no matter what anyone says, you will continue to stand from a position of conflict and hostility, denouncing other religions and propping up your own on a pedestal.
Your religion must be one of a warring nature.
what a wonderful false summation of the conversation. Guess it's time to open up a similar forum topic and start anew?
Why false? Don't you think that Christianity is on its death bed?
i do not think Christianity is on it's 'death bed'
I don't think that it is either.This is just the calm before the storm.
Well I agree with you on the storm part but then things often get louder as they die and there seems to be a hell of a lot of old churches being sold off and turned into private homes...
Thats just the UK though (and europe). I guess christianity is growing in china.
I reckon that churches are dying because people don't believe its doctrines anymore and the church does not tolerate dissent. Unfortunately, they use this as a rationale not to believe in the bible or God, and the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater.
Now if the church would only drop the unbiblical doctrines, and approach scripture with a fresh eyes, permit free thinking, then maybe church numbers would increase again. But that wont happen because too much time resources and money have been invested in dodgy doctrines to go back.
A good analogy for the church is UK gov's decision not to scrap our new aircraft carriers, because that would cost more money than finishing them, even though they will be white elephants.
How many people do you think are making money from these aircraft carriers? Any chance "the church" is one of the investors? I know a little about the finances of "the church" which all you religious people keep on blaming your actions on. Tell me you are not religious. Dear me.
Free thinking produces atheism.
"Unfortunately, they use this as a rationale not to believe in the bible or God"
Actually thats not true for any atheist that I have ever met.
In fact, every atheist I have met has either been an atheist because they neer heard about religion (children) or they are atheist because they read the bible and could see for themselves what nonsense it is just like myself.
No doubt the Christianity is on its deathbed but it could resurrect from it if Jesus’ teachings are followed by the Christians instead of the misleading concepts of Paul, Scribes and the Church.
At least there is hope.
...ahhhhhhh.....Thursday nite on the net...hey Paar!...wazzup up?....you know your answers.........
For all the people here who believe that Christianity is on it's death bed in America, can anyone tell me why there are churches that are still open in America? If Christianity is dying why do we still hear from people like Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, and other televangelists. They have to receive their support from somewhere. I know the government isn't mailing them a check. I also don't believe that non-believers are sending them money. If Christianity is really dying, show me evidence!
because they have managed to con the christians into making them rich - Benny just sold his private jet
humanism wants to boast that you have succeeded above another and equally that you have failed in comparison to another. Either way, you are a slave to humanism. Rise above your humanism..
Better to be a slave to logic and reason than to be a slave to "God."
That's humanism for ya. As long as your a slave --to either-- humanism wins.
Interesting theory. Never heard that one before. Humanism means supporting human wellbeing. Slavery is antithetical to human wellbeing.
You're talking about some negative developments in the western world of recent centuries (some of which I disagree are necessarily negative, but that is a VERY different discussion altogether). Some are related to humanism, and some are not.
Humanism, at bottom, is about human wellbeing. That's all, folks. Whatever somebody does in the "name of humanism" is irrelevant. Intelligent people can disagree about the proper balance between individual and collective. Intelligent people can also disagree about what precisely constitutes "human wellbeing"--what exact mix of material and immaterial goods, etc.
If anyone is interested, they can email me and I will reply with an attached pps (MS Powerpoint Slide Show) which gives evidence of the Red Sea Crossing, for your own considerations.
Don't worry, it is safe and will not infect your Computer. I expect that people will respect my goodwill and not spam me once they have my address (which I use for HubPages and a few other things).
This forum is dying.
How about something to consider which will no doubt bring on some more, from both sides, in hard-thought reason?
The pps document I am willing to send via email (set yourself up a new email address just for this, if you want) has evidence that the Red Sea Crossing was indeed quite possible, and by a streatch, probable. One thing it also demonstrates is that Moses was a true prophet of God, who found the point of crossing just at the right time.
"evidence that the Red Sea Crossing was... possible... demonstrates... that Moses was a true prophet of God"
Are there people who still believe in this poppycock today? My God!
Yes, millions, including Governments, as alluded to in the pps document. Hey, it's not going to kill you by looking at the evidence ... I bet you "waste" a lot more time just perusing these forums. At least by watching the presentation (around 10 minute, if I remember correctly), you have some new stuff to "consider".
Frankly, I'm really surprised there is no interest so far.
I guess people are "avoiding" educating themeselves in a balanced way. I will even go so far as to suggest that this presentation will add fodder to both sides, while opening a whole subset of discussion.
Timothy, science has known about this phenomenon for quite some time. It has nothing to do with supernatural events. If I remember correctly from a science program I saw once, the story of the parting of the Red Sea is explainable by a body of water temporarily drying up/ receding in an area, and then replenishing itself later on. Nothing supernatural about it, it has to do with tides and weather patterns and climate and stuff like that.
When the body of water receded, it allowed people to walk across it, obviously.
This totally explainable phenomenon, plus the nationalistic hubris, fuzzy memories, and exaggeration/ hyperbole of the authors of the Old Testament, completely explains the written story of the Red Sea crossing.
It does not, in any way, prove that Moses was a prophet of God.
(BTW, you can simply post the information in your powerpoint presentation in a hub.)
"science has known about this phenomenon for quite some time... the parting of the Red Sea is explainable by a body of water temporarily drying up/ receding in an area, and then replenishing itself later on. Nothing supernatural about it"
Then you are a bigger fool than the other guy. When a moron such as you tries to reinterpret the Bible in such a way as to remove the mysticism, he hasn't understood the first thing about it! You're like the idiot who argued that JC actually did walk over water, but that the waters were frozen at the time. You should be collecting Ark splinters from Mount Ararat, bean brain! Got it?
And don't use the word 'science' in vain, you moron! You have no clue what Science is! Perhaps your grandma knew about the drying of the Red Sea. Not Science! What will you argue next in the name of 'science'? That 'scientists' also knew that God caused rain to fall for 40 days until the land was flooded until everyone died? That Noah saved pairs of every type of animal for posterity? That the Serpent did indeed talk to Eve? My God! And they let these loonies run around loose!
"it's not going to kill you by looking at the evidence"
In Science, we clean our butts with evidence. The only purpose of evidence is to persuade.
In Science, we explain phenomena and do so rationally. Parting of a sea is an irrational explanation... fit for gullible morons, I may add. And it is truly amazing that in the 21st C there are idiots who still believe in Little Red Riding Hood explanations such as parting of the Red Sea, God creating the U, Jonas swallowed by a fish, JC walking on water, black hole swallowing an astronaut, collision of 0D particles, traveling thru a wormhole...
So there's no need to look at any so-called 'evidence'. But thanks for the offer.
Yes Bill, there are people on the religious threads who handle snakes for god, speak in tongues, and torture the English language within an inch of it's life!
Many explanations have been offered for the Red Sea gig...Yours is by far, the lamest. I prefer the tsunami wave created by the eruption of Akroteri in the Med. Wiped out Cretan civilization, and could not have gone unnoticed. Provides a column of smoke and a column of fire too. Simcha Jacobivici "The Naked Archaeologist" did a segment on the whole Exodus thing. Extremely well done, and championing one of my personal favorite theories.
If you wanna be first in Gods Kingdom
Learn to be a servant of the Lords.
It so exciting and truly brings me joy to serve other people (that means serving God).
I dont tell them why or who Im really serving ,I just do it.
I dont care what the physcology is ,I just know its practical, helps another human and benefits us both.
I figure if they wanna know what I beleive I will tell them ,if they dont ,I dont.
Simple ,everybody happy.
He who is last is first and he who is first is last.
Very good outlook on life!
Pretty much what I try to do. Except here in THA forums ...
Here I tell EM what I think just cause I can, like everybody else does, I somebody don't want to hear it; they don't have to read it. Just like some people that I don't read what they got to say.
It just seems that ... your comment could be followed with ;
God is in us ... If everyone served God by doing GOOD things for others every minute of every day, ...
God being within all of us ... To be selfless is to be self serving; AND EVERYTHING WOULD BE GOOD! For everybody !
And that's Tha truth.
Anyway ... I like what YA wrote.
But, you just did tell us what you believed and further to that you told us what we should be doing, and you did so regardless of whether or not we wanted you to tell us.
Notice how quick and easy your religion causes you to create conflict.
Nice try at twisting my intentions.
If you challenge me with a question or misquote me ,you can be sure I will respond.
But if you just want a hand with painting your house, and no word of God I will do that too.
According to the world almanac 2009. Christianity is the largest religion.
People learn a little here and there and grow. They are where their understanding takes them. It does not make any book worthless.
What people believe is for personal reasons. Some non-religious people believe in war and some don't
According to the world almanac
Christianity has 2,039 million followers
Islam has 1,570 million followers
Islam has different beliefs too. Not all Muslims believe exactly the same. You also have the Hindus
Thanks for joining in.
You mean Christianity is progressing?
I think they are not following Jesus' teachings and his deeds; they are simply misled by Paul and the Church; so they are on the decline.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never said they are progressing, although I wouldn't be surprised. I also doubt they are on the decline, since they are here for a purpose.
And what is that purpose. I think you want to tell us that purpose.
Jesus did not die on the Cross; that makes Christianity dead lying on its deathbed.
Whoever says Jesus did not die has not fully examined the overwhelming evidence. Despite the very fact that the Roman soldier affirmed his death, and his beloved disciples affirmed it too, there is further and deeper evidence you can bank on. Remember that Jesus did not just claim to be the Messiah without evidence. He said, "Search the scriptures (Old Testament at that time), for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and this are they that testify of Me". The very life of the Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament, even the exact time that He would be baptized was prophesied. If you believe in the old testament as the inspired word of God, then you have to believe in Jesus as the Savior of the world, for it clearly points to Him. One of my favorite prophecies is Haggai 2:1-9. Here God, through His prophet Haggai, prophecies hundreds of years before Jesus is born, that the Desire of all Nations (a term referring to the Messiah), will come and enter the 2nd Temple (the one built by the leadership of Nehemiah). We all know that, that temple was destroyed by General Titus of the Roman Army on AD.70. This means that the Messiah has to have come before AD.70. The only person to ever claim the title of Messiah and fulfill all the promises that pointed to the Messiah, was Jesus of Nazareth. He was born around BC.4, and was killed on the cross (for our sins) on AD.31. I plead with you, don't reject Jesus because it is now a cool thing to do,do your soul a favor and examine the overwhelming evidence for yourself, for your Salvation depends on you believing on Him.
Jesus promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail over His church. You can take Him by His word, because He, for He is God, cannot lie.
Jesus never built a church; he never spoke the word "church" from his mouth .
Ah a thinly veiled attempt to question the validity of the Church.
True He never spoke the word "Church", because that's an English word derived from the Celtic 'kirk' or 'circ' meaning circle, a reference to the pagan tradition or worshiping deities in circles.
He used a word that translated into Greek is "ekklesia" or congregation, assembly. So we should read "I will build my congregation and the gates of Hades (grave) will not prevail against it"
So he built an assembly of believers that has grown to this day.
Jesus was Jew; whenever he wanted to worship he went to the Jewish temple. He followed Moses and his law and never made a church in his life.
What do you suppose His sermons to the disciples were if not an assembly out side of the temple? What did he say to Peter after His resurrection? "Peter feed my sheep". That is Peter continue to lead these disciples, this congregation, this assembly.
He followed Moses and the law, which He fulfilled on our behalf, and took the penalty in place of us for not fulfilling it.
Now Paar you have a choice set before you. You can accept the freedom in Christ or you can enslave yourself to another set of laws in the Quran.
Jesus did not die on the Cross; so his resurrection from the dead is only a myth.
I believe in Moses, Jesus and Muhammad; there is no question of any enslavement; Quran is the only Revealed Word which provides the reasons and arguments and convinces one with them; other revealed books miss that.
You don't believe in Jesus, you only believe in selected sayings of His, and all others you choose to say were made up.
From the quotes you give of the Quran, it appears to me that it's sole purpose was to provide an argument against the Church, and not to provide any new wisdom. The Jewish scriptures are in harmony with the New Testament. The Quran appears to me to sit as something quite apart from both.
Quran does not claim to be a new thing; it only revives the Word Revealed on all the messengers prophets of all ancient people like Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus etc.
It confirms if there is any truthful and everlasting teachings in them with reasons and exposes if the teachings have been corrupted due to the time intervening, with reasons. The new thing is to reinstate the reason part which others lack; they give commandments but give no reasons.
[46:10] Say, ‘I am no new Messenger, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you in this life. I do but follow what is revealed to me; and I am but a plain Warner.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … mp;verse=9
Please ask the Jews; they won't agree with you on this point; it is only a Christian misconception.
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