Do you believe in God?

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  1. lovetherain profile image70
    lovetherainposted 21 months ago

    If not, why not?

    1. John Welford profile image89
      John Welfordposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I may have done once, but not any more. The fact is that none of the supposed "proofs" stands up to scrutiny and it all comes down to "faith" - whatever that is.

      My belief is that people who claim to believe in God, and to have had direct personal experiences that confirm his existence to them, have had a mental episode that is easily explained by psychology. This will create the illusion of reality but actually have no presence outside their own mind.

      1. Readmikenow profile image97
        Readmikenowposted 20 months agoin reply to this

        John, what do you believe happens to people when they die?  Do you think that is the end of our existence?

        I've often stated the rules of the physical world do not apply to the spiritual world.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

          But how can you know that?  You can't show us that the spiritual world even exists. It's a belief right  now, nothing more.

          1. Readmikenow profile image97
            Readmikenowposted 20 months agoin reply to this

            I did a story once with scientific ghost hunters.  One of the members had a Ph.D. in engineering.  Another one was a college physics teacher.  They tried to use "scientific methods" in their ghost hunting efforts.  They recorded things and experienced things science could not explain.  Now, during this story I asked a science professor at an Ivy league school if he would take a look at what was found by these ghost hunters.  He would get a mention in the magazine, which had a rather large circulation.  He refused.  When I said why, he told me it could not benefit society and only hurt it.  This left me with the impression many scientists may be uncomfortable with trying to work on discovering the spiritual world.  It seems to scare some of them.  So, people of science appear to be more comfortable focusing their efforts on the physical world. 

            Again, I ask, what happens when we die?  Is that the end of it?  Do we go on to another life in another world?

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 20 months agoin reply to this

              "They recorded things and experienced things science could not explain. "

              And there begins the questioning and searching process.  With something they can't explain - what was it?  How can I be sure, and what other tests can I run to verify my hypothesis is correct?.  Most (all?) paranormal "researchers" I've seen, unfortunately, simply assign the label "ghost" (or one it's variants) to what they don't understand, which is a very good reason that your professor was not happy being in a paranormal magazine research article.

              When your searchers have proven that what they detected and experienced was due to a disembodied intelligence then they can report they found a new life form.  Not the remains of a once-living organism, just a life form that has never been seen before.  Until then all they can report is that they are ignorant of possible causes and request help from others to find out what it was.

              1. Readmikenow profile image97
                Readmikenowposted 20 months agoin reply to this

                Part of the scientific method is to try an disprove what you've discovered using all known methods.  After this is done, what is left is a mystery.

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

              A scientific view of the super natural

              People have had many experiences over the years that are unexplained. Many of them get the label “super natural” or “paranormal” But are they? Or are they natural? Let’s see if we can work this out.

              Let’s take a look at what we know, and see if we can make a model from it.  It’s long been known that we can record sound and images. In fact, through the evolution of sound recording we’ve discovered dozens of ways to record and play back sound and images. We can even store information in what we call radio waves.  And with the internet and cell phones there’s information all around us. But we need something to decode the information and play it for us. Our brains thankfully can’t do that on their own.

              And the material we can record on is also almost limitless. Records, tapes, CDs, etc. In other words: metals, plastics , and just about anything. 

              Several years ago experiments were done and it was found we could record on stone. 

              Humans have a function, along with most other things. We gather, process, store, and pass on information.  Most living things do.  We and everything is made of atoms/energy. That energy doesn’t die when we do, it most likely dissipates and goes on to join other structures, as the energy of other former nonliving structures do.. There is nothing to suggest it can stay together after leaving the structure it belonged to.  And no such large unit of energy has been seen  leaving a dead body at one time, and such experiments have been done.  So let’s assume for a moment there is no soul.

              So the question is, does that energy carry bit of information about what it was?  If so, being it was recorded by a living thing, could that information be read by a human mind?  If so, it would explain everything about ghosts, spirits, déjà vous, strange sounds, etc. 

              When a person has a traumatic experience, can their emotions be written in to the very walls of a room, and perhaps be read/played back by a person with the right kind of brain? That is to say, that works on the same frequency as the recording, or something like that.

              When you eat something, you never know what it’s been part of. Could déjà vous be information we’ve eaten, or breathed in at some point, and then it gets triggered by seeing a place for the first time? It would feel exactly like you had been there before, because something you ingested had been there.

              In the 1960s in Berkley they did an experiment. At least that’s the story we heard when I was 17.  They had the idea that by thinking together they could create an entity in a room. They gave it a name and a back story and talked to it as if it was real.  Apparently participant started feeling as if it was real. They also started feeling strange.  It is said they moved a table a good distance by telling their entity to do it. I’ve never been able to verify the story so I can’t vouch for it.  But knowing Berkeley and the 60s it’s not outside the realm of possibility.

              But what I can do is relay my own experience.

              Shortly after hearing about all this, my roommate and I decided to try it.  We worked on it for a few days but got bored with it after nothing happened.  A week later we had a couple friends come over. Everything was fine until we moved into the room we had done the experiment in.  The girl that was there started to cry, saying she felt a great weight on her and great depression. She didn’t know why, and she only started feeling that way when she entered the room.  We felt nothing, but her boyfriend said  he felt strange, but didn’t have nearly the reaction his girlfriend had. We never told anyone about our experiment, and we didn’t actually believe we had created anything.

              But never the less, when people came over and sat in that room, many of them went through various degrees of distress.  But we never felt a thing.  Was it all coincidence? Could be.

              As it happens, life wasn’t great for me at the time. We’d moved 3000 miles from home for a job that never panned out.  We couldn’t get a job to save our lives, so when they told us the list had been destroyed and we’d probably have to wait months to get the job we came for, I’d had enough and went home.

              It was the 70s and friends lived in communes. We rented a house together. 13 of us. We paid 30 dollars a month rent and utilities. I made my room in the basement and got 5 jobs in a week, finally deciding on one.

              A few days went by, and one day I came home from work only to find a good friend afraid to go into the basement. Apparently he had gone down to do laundry. But as he descended the stairs he felt a weight bearing down on him. He felt fear and depression he couldn’t understand. He dropped his hamper and ran back upstairs.  I knew what it was. I had somehow brought it with me. Or had I?

              I realized that I’d been very depressed for a long time.  Not just because of the job issue, but also a former relationship issue, and I generally didn’t feel good about myself and wanted to change. Did I create this thing?  I went to the basement and started talking to it, telling it I wanted it gone. I had created it, I had to erase it. After several hours I felt it was gone.  I convinced my friend to go down and he no longer felt anything. And it never came back.

              After years of thinking about and wondering what had actually happened, it occurred to me that I may have written my emotions into the room.  It wasn’t an entity at all, just a recording that certain others could play back.  Or it was all co-incidents and imagination. I can’t rule that out.

              In the end I can’t say with 100 percent certainty what happened. But I do know what I experienced and what others experienced. And the most rational answer I have, other than coincidence mixed with imagination, is that which I’ve laid out in this text.

              If it’s true, and it’s certainly possible, then the supernatural is just natural recordings of traumatic events.  How often have you heard people say just walking into a certain room gives them the creeps, but they don’t know why? Or that being in the same room with a depressed person brings them down?

              I’ve read that so called poltergeist activity has been linked to troubled teens in the household, in most cases. True? I have no idea. But it would fit the model.

              And  again, this is just a model that tries to link the fact that information can be recorded on anything, and played back with the right device;   and so called paranormal experience.

              And if true, it means the supernatural is actually perfectly natural, not always just coincidence and imagination. Though I have no doubt it’s that too at times, as well as stray EM fields and other natural conditions..

              Research, research, research.  Perhaps someday we’ll know.

          2. MizBejabbers profile image90
            MizBejabbersposted 20 months agoin reply to this

            Most people who believe in the spiritual world, unlike fundamentalists who believe on faith alone, hold the belief from personal experience so they can't show you. It is real to us, not just a belief. Once a person experiences it, he/she can never go back to just faith alone.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

              I have zero doubt those people had amazing spiritual experiences. I've had lots of them too.  What is up for debate is: were they actually what people think they are, or are they all in your mind?

              So as sure as you are, you can't be sure, and therefore it's a belief, not personal knowledge.

              From my own experiences I would have to say they were pretty much all in my head. Reason being, I trained myself to have any experience I want to have, including living Alice in wonderland for a few minuets, as real at the time  as any experience in day to day life.. Hence why it makes all such experiences suspect.

    2. MizBejabbers profile image90
      MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I don't believe in the Christian "God," the    Jehovah of the Old Testament, a psychotic one minute and an allegedly loving deity the next. A real Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. Why bother to pray to someone who may dump you on your ass for something you didn't realize offended him. No, I think he is just a legend, folklore or somebody's bad dream.

      But I do believe in an other world, multidimensional existence. Whether it is headed by a creator or many levels of creators, or gods, I don't know for sure. But I do believe in guardian angels and spirits who watch over us.

      I was lying paralyzed on my back in a bus wreck in 2006 when I sent out a mental plea for help to whomever in the universe would listen. I was fully awake and not in shock as a medic later said. I was wearing a light blazer with long sleeves. I received a response, feathery light strokes on my face and the same light touches on my arms under the sleeves. A voice in my head distinctly said, "don't worry, we won't leave you." It wasn't me talking to myself. Someone in the universe was comforting me. Remember, I wasn't in shock or unconscious. The entities stayed with me until the ambulance arrived and transported a couple of us to the hospital. The next morning I found that my paralysis was only temporary.

      I took that as proof that there were other entities in the universe. I had attended metaphysical school in the 1970s and was told a lot of stuff that I took to be, well, out of this world. While attending school, I had two experiences with what I took as a  malevolent entity who was trying to possess me. The loving entities in the accident were my evidence that there is something good out there although I won't say that it was actually a god who was with me...just its lieutenants.

      1. hard sun profile image84
        hard sunposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        My mother had an a sleep paralysis experience with a dark "demon" holding her down. She explained how she felt it was her mind making up a reason for why she felt she was awake but could not move. This is just to show how such experiences can be interpreted so much differently. I'm not stating either is right or wrong.

        I do think that the scientific method has not been sufficiently applied to the realm of the metaphysical. This seems mainly as it's difficult for scientists to be taken seriously when studying such matters. Personally, I think studies should be judged solely on their individual merits and scientists, as a whole, or biased against studies of the metaphysical realm, which is not very scientific. There is more, even right in front of our eyes, that we cannot see.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          There are uncountable items right in front of our eyes that we cannot see, ranging from stars and galaxies to amoebas and bacteria.

          But until science can either detect those things (microscopes, telescopes, whatever) or their undeniable results that we CAN detect, there is no study to be done.

          Nevertheless, science does try sometimes.  It has tried to find a soul.  It has debunked scammers talking to the dead (that's how science works; test and debunk a claim) every time it has tried.  I'm unaware of any scientist that was made a laughingstock in such efforts, although certainly they have been when making claims of the supernatural that they fail to support or prove.

          1. hard sun profile image84
            hard sunposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Of course things we cannot see are not identifiable until we detect them!?! It's detecting them that is part of science...telescopes and microscopes are only tools that make detection of some type of phenomena possible. Scientists discovered those detection methods as they must do in order to uncover further mysteries.

            I watched a documentary something like "science of the soul' recently...according to this show, science found some things that maybe could perhaps point to a soul..but, of course, nothing that amounts to a theory.

            " I'm unaware of any scientist that was made a laughingstock in such efforts, although certainly they have been when making claims of the supernatural that they fail to support or prove."

            In science departments, although my experience is mainly in physical science, people wouldn't necessarily hear of anyone being "made a laughingstock." Rather, their research would simply be steered in a different direction that is more acceptable to the mainstream scientific community. Nobody ever hears of a laughingstock unless they were, at one time, a respected member of the scientific community.

            I stick by my statement that the scientific community should be more open to research that may cross into what some may consider the "spiritual" realm. After all, there are often times physical links to that spiritual realm that, when revealed, make that realm seem less mystical. And, no one knows what the next detection method may be eg. microscope until it's discovered.

            Mendel and Pasteur were considered mystical lunatics by some in the scientific community.

            There was no study to be done on germs UNTIL Pastuer discovered them..the microscope was a tool, not the discoverer.

            The science of LSD effects on brains was treated as spiritual mumbo jumbo by mainstream science until recently.

            1. MizBejabbers profile image90
              MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Hard Sun, I believe science and spirituality are coming closer together, and that some day they will merge. Especially after some scientists have spiritual episodes that awaken them to the fact that everything doesn't have to have a logical explanation. There are many things beyond the understanding of the lower mind.

              I would be willing to believe your mother when she talks about her experience.

              1. hard sun profile image84
                hard sunposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                Yes. Science and spirituality coming together, at least at certain points, is my main point here.

                Some LSD trips when I was much much younger reflected strongly upon me that the mind does not see all that it is even physically capable of at this point, without the help of introducing a foreign chemical, or maybe some intense meditation or some such. Some thoughts are simply real, and that can be felt.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                  Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  Only had one chemical drug  experience
                  called orange sunshine acid just once. It turn my life from an athelite to an artist and the real centre and marriage of my life.

                  1. hard sun profile image84
                    hard sunposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Oh yes. From my experience, not many people can do a moderately intense psychedelic/hallucinogen and not come out changed. I did some orange sunshine blotter acid. It was one of the more prevalent paper designs when/where I was growing up. The new research on the therapeutic effects of psychedelics is spot on and much needed. Of course, like anything, too much, used for the wrong purposes, etc. can lead to not so good repercussions. But, this shouldn't stop us from recognizing good effects of such drugs. After all, people have recognized such for thousands of years. Yet, we imprison people for doing so now.

              2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                I take it as granted when someone tells me about their experiences. What is always up for debate is where those experiences came from and their interpretation of that experience

                I spent my teens and early twenties studying Eastern mysticism and Buddhism. I reached every level/experience the gurus told me were possible to reach. I can even still leave my body almost at will. I reached states of bliss, just knowing, feeling a connection to all.

                And I did it all by mind alone. No metaphysics.. I even lived in Tolkien's middle Earth for almost 12 hours. The brain is amazing. You can have any experience you want. You just need to train it.

                And there's a massive difference between real science and spirituality. Sure, scientist are coming up with all kinds of theories, or more appropriately hypothesis. The difference is, in science, before you can say your hypothesis is right it has to be tested to prove itself. A lot of current science can't be tested. Some, like many worlds, may never be testable. Therefore, they are just a guess. They are an interpretation of real data. But interpretations aren't facts, until they are. If they can't be tested they add zero to our actual collective knowledge base.

                Everything does have a logical explanation, even if we don't know what it is. .

                1. hard sun profile image84
                  hard sunposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  If we don't know what it is we may be able to determine that explanation through science...at some point. Just because something seems mystical now, it doesn't mean it has no explanation. This is where science and spirituality can meet. All of current science can be tested in some way. That doesn't stop some scientists from floating out a hypothesis that they don't know how to test. But, that does not make science and thus is not science.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Absolutely.

                2. MizBejabbers profile image90
                  MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  lol

          2. Rocco Simari profile image71
            Rocco Simariposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            "The more I study science, the more I believe in God!"
                                                                                     -Albert Einstein

            1. Castlepaloma profile image76
              Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Even Richard Dawkins see a similar demi God as Einstein. Just not a personal God.

            2. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Somehow I doubt that the man that learned to make tremendous predictions based on natural laws believed in the god of today: an omnipotent, omniscient ET outside of time and from another universe that commonly violates the natural laws Einstein worked to hard to prove.

              On the other hand, such a statement made in recognition of almost total ignorance of those same natural laws seems reasonable.

            3. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Sorry, that's not a real quote. There are a lot of false quotes attributed to Albert.

    3. Don W profile image80
      Don Wposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Is the question you are asking: do you believe in one or more deities?

      If not, then it would be helpful for you to define your terms.

    4. peterstreep profile image80
      peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Nope, there is no God.
      As you do not need a God theory any more to explain the world.
      One used to believe in a God to explain thunder. Now we know it's not Wodan throwing spears. One used to explain how the sun rose and set by Apollo pulling a chariot across the heavens.
      One used to believe that human kind was created and only had 1 man and 1 woman as a starting point.

      All these God theories have become myths. The God theory was an early scientific theory that's now replaced by much better theories.

    5. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      No. I don't believe in god. But I also don't believe there is no god. No one knows. No one can know. So it's useless to believe either way. 

      Lots of reasons not to think the Christian god is the one that exists even should a god of some sort exist. And as far as I'm concerned any conscious being that created this would have to be sick sadistic and cruel beyond belief to have created a world where all things suffer pain, hunger, fear, diseases and where everything must kill something else to live. 

      From nature without intent it's just the way it is. But if this was intended, god is more Satan than benevolent father figure.   

      So in a real sense I hope there is no ego maniacal tyrant  creator out there.

      The alternative is a god that can only do things one way. Not almighty or all anything else. Then it would be nice to know why it decided to or had to create this.

      Some have speculated that god is messed up and out of balance and creation was a way to solve it's problems. Of course anything responsible for creating/developing this could be defined as god. So if it is non-intention-ed nature/cause and effect that created it, the Pantheists could be right. Nature/the totality itself is god.

      Do I believe it's true? No. But I think it has a reasonable probability.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        If there is God, it's Love and Religion is nature, this makes sense to me. Since I base my life on good sense, I will wait untill something else comes along. Something that I can understand with my heart in order to change my mind.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Not sure I understand how you can believe that seeing how the world is. Where's natures/gods love in a 4 year old with cancer?

          Sure, there is love too, but not, it seems, coming from nature itself as a whole. It's an element to strive for, for sure. But it's not universal.

          We're a virus on the butt end of the universe. It facilitates our being, but doesn't care about or for us one way or the other. 

          As for the heart leading the mind... Sorry, but the heart is emotion. It's often wrong. And the only way to find out is mind. Emotions change as we learn. Mine lie to me all the time, which is why I can't trust them when it comes to knowing the truth. And I'm far happier knowing and being fine with the fact that I don't know, rather than believing something because it feels good.

          1. Castlepaloma profile image76
            Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            The heart is far more than a muscle or an emotional. I lead my life with my heart, shortly followed by my mind. Love is the glue of universe, all earthling love. Love keeps babies alive or elder living longer.  What's God  than a second handme down imagination dominanted by emotions .

            Individualism is the pathway to enlightenment as we are what we think. All energy fire, water air and earth is the life source of bio-organism received from the stars like star dust spirits. Nature has laws I can understand, God has too  many laws and condition for love I will never understand. More people are killed in the name of God, than for any other reason.

            Where imagination is the living agent of all human perception with both intent and effort. There are no rules of architecture for a castle in the clouds, the quality flows by the gift of fantasy conceives in images from objective reality. Imagination asks desired questions, it creates and grows with exercise. Anyone is enough of an artist to draw from their imagination as for it’s the basic health of every man. Concept like God, issue lower form of imagination, and imagination is a poor substitute for experience. Few people have the imagination for reality and logic and reason can die off quickly. Your knowledge has limits but your imagination dose not. Reason respects differences, and imagination has a perceptible likeness of things. It’s an act not of reason but an intuition, Imagination is the eye of the soul and the voice of the daring. If there is anything Godlike about God it is that. When he dares to go beyond his wildest dreams, he can imagine everything.

            I can prove most everything I know was once imagined, it’s created in beauty, justice, and happiness. It’s the main source of value in the new economy and the supreme master of art as of life. You create your own universe as you go along. The stronger your imagination, the more expansive your universe becomes. If you forget your dreams of your universe, your Universe will cease to exist. When your will and the imagination are in conflict, it is the imagination that always wins.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Imagination is wonderful, I agree. We use it best to ask questions like in science. We imagine and then test to see if what we imagined is true or not. But imagination doesn't create truth. Something is true or not. Believing it or not believing it doesn't change anything. 

              I would say that emotions are our subconscious telling us something is right or wrong according to it’s conditioning.  But It may be right or wrong about that.. Therefore it’s good to fact check it through conscious deliberation.

              The brain has two sides, the right and left.  Right is mostly subconscious, and the left is what we call consciousness. It’s the side that identifies as “I”. 

              A ball is flying toward your face. You move, catch it, or stand there like a dear in headlights and get hit in the face.  The person who catches it has probably played ball before.  It’s training.  The person who gets hit was consciously confused and thinking.  Thinking is too slow. 

              If you learn a new skill you need to think about it at first.  For a guitar you have to think about finger position,  timing, learn here the notes are etc.   But the more you learn and practice, the less you need to think about those things.  By time you’re stage ready, thinking about it can make you second guess yourself, and you make mistakes.

              The skill has literally become part of who you are. It feels natural. As you say: intuitive. It’s on auto response, which is how the subconscious works.

              You don’t choose your emotions, you just get them.  You had feelings about playing the guitar, learning to drive a car or bike etc all through the learning process, and they changed through the process.

              So learning/experience  educates  your subconscious auto response/intuition.  All animals work this way.  But humans have an extra feature. We have a conscious component that can deliberate. Why? Due directly to complex language.  The conscious mind deliberates in language.  When you think, you think in words. Try thinking without them.  You can get limited results by thinking in symbols, but that’s what words are on steroids. A single word can hold a thousand complex concepts, like the word “religion.” 

              So consciousness is an emergent tool, developed by the evolution of complex language.  It’s there to educate and alter auto response/intuition/instinct, and consequently your emotions.

              Again, we don’t choose our emotions, and worse, we don’t choose our likes and dislikes, which is mostly what emotions represent.   And whatever we do, we do to appease/resolve those likes and dislikes, some of which are biological needs and genetic predispositions. Others are derived from culture/environment set against our biology and genetics.
              The subconscious will throw up answers automatically, but they are often wrong. A test was done with hundreds of math and physics students.  It’s a very simple problem, but 90 plus percent got it wrong.  It goes like this:
              “Answer the first thing that comes to mind.

              You go to the store to buy a bat and ball. The total price is:  1.10.  The bat by itself costs exactly one dollar more than the ball. How much is the ball.?

              Not only did most of them get the wrong answer, most of them gave the same wrong answer. Try it on your friends.   Most people will say: ten cents.  That's intuition tells us, but it's wrong. Close, but wrong.

              The point is, unless you fact check your first thought/heart, you have a good chance of being wrong unless you’re trained in that kind of problem.  And that first thought comes from the subconscious.

              Also, as a point of interest, neuroscience has discovered that the subconscious actually knows what you’re going to do seconds before your conscious side is informed about it. Of course it thinks it’s the part that made the choice.  When you catch the ball, don’t you congratulate yourself on how good you are?  And rightly so.  You’re not just your consciousness. You're the whole package. I think we agree on that at least.

              1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                We can agree on alot of things.

                Science and religion is like a branch on the tree of life, it is not the whole tree.  Truth is beauty and imagination does create it's own truth as everything I have ever achieved in life was all once imagined and believing is not as strong.

                I think feeling is a better word than emotions. A good EQ is more important than a good IQ. When I feel it's right or wrong I am connected to my moral subconscious and the collective ethical consciousness  My heart brain is most empowerment, my gut brain is my survival mode and my mind brain is the ego that backs it all up for conscious  deliberation.
                We start learning with our minds then magic takes over from heart and gut brains of our subconscious to take it very intuitive level. Practice of 10,000 hour is most common thread to greatness. After 80,000 hours of my artist works, you can imagine how good I am. Visual come before words in your mind, we learn faster with visualization.
                As an artist I learn more from honest mistakes and accidents. I won more sculptor championship than anyone yet also made more mistakes than anyone. Arts and culture has influenced mankind more than Religion. Good thing because I think Religion has done more harm than good.
                 

              2. MizBejabbers profile image90
                MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                "So learning/experience  educates  your subconscious auto response/intuition."

                Slarty, you have it backwards. You think that the subconscious is dependent on the lower mind. Any metaphysical person knows that the subconscious is above the physical level mind. Even psychology teaches that: the id (mind), ego (subconscious), and superego (superconscious). At least it was taught that way when I took psychology in college.
                Even your example of writing down the first thing that comes to mind does not mean that it came from the "mind educated subconscious" (your viewpoint). It just means that it is the first thing that pops into your brain from your own level of experience.
                Again, to use a Harry Potter term, which is so convenient, you muggles just don't understand. Someday when you awaken....
                But even metaphysically it doesn't work that way. The subconscious knows a lot more than it allows a person to draw upon when the subconscious views that as a trivial matter, such as a pop quiz. If even awakened people could get answers from their subconscious minds on everything, we would be the most brilliant people in the world. Einstein, Tesla, et al would have nothing on us when it comes to smarts. We, even you, draw upon our subconscious to give us guidance like don't shoplift that blouse, or pop a warning to us that a train is approaching the next crossing...things that really matter to our lives or morals. Our subconscious doesn't give a hoot about the answer to question 25.

                1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                  Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  The word God is just a word. Others words like love and heart can be confusing to many.
                  Although they know love when they feel it. A subconscious could be the closest explaintion to a Godlike behavior. Even a prayer or a wish from a birthday candle can act more like a self hypnostizes towards what you really want, Godlike cast into the universe.

                  I only get into trouble when I don't follow the heart long-term.

                2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  On the contrary, I'm not saying the subconscious is the lower mind. I'm saying it's in charge, fully aware, but unable to think through complex concepts. Humans think consciousness is in charge. The part that self identifies as "I". But it's a tool, part of the system. Not the entire system or the most important bit.

                  But I also don't believe the subconscious is soul. I don't think there's anything metaphysical going on.

                  And yes, the subconscious is guiding the system not to shoplift, because it's been taught that's not a good idea for many reasons. It's become an auto response. But as a young child you have no such conditioning. A kid or animal sees something and takes it. Only having gotten in trouble for it teaches us its not a good idea. And this gets reinforced over time.

                  So your auto response has to be educated and changes by experience, Morality isn't inherently fully formed in the subconscious.

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                    Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Morality is whatever you think is right or a limited thinking group, thinks is Right.

                    Ethics is like business across the board like Lack of ethics of stealing and murder.

                  2. MizBejabbers profile image90
                    MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    In your view, the earth is still flat, and Egyptian slaves built the pyramids by rolling 2 or 3 ton stones 150 miles to the site.

    6. Shing Araya profile image80
      Shing Arayaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Yes, but not as much as the church told me to

    7. IslandBites profile image90
      IslandBitesposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      No. Because I don't.

    8. Cheryl E Preston profile image87
      Cheryl E Prestonposted 20 months agoin reply to this

      I believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because they have made themselves known to me. To all skeptics I ask, have you ever reached out to Him? How can you say He is not real if you never asked Him to reveal Himself.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

        I did. I even wanted to be a priest when I was young. but I learned from years of experience that you can have any spiritual experience you want, you merely have to train the mind to have them.

        You also get them naturally without deliberate training, or easiest of all through drugs. And even with an electromagnetic field

        The killer is, you can also train your mind to visit fantasy worlds like Alice in wonder land, or what ever, with a feeling of ultra realism to it.

        That makes all spiritual experiences suspect.

  2. Castlepaloma profile image76
    Castlepalomaposted 21 months ago

    Not a personal monotheism God.
    It makes no sense to have one world Religion or one and only God. Who nobody is capable of giving any evidence or sound logic towards. I am, who I think, I am. Is about the closest to God that I can imagine. Don't bow down to bullies.

    1. lovetherain profile image70
      lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Why does it "make no sense" to have only one God?

  3. wilderness profile image96
    wildernessposted 21 months ago

    As there is no evidence supporting such a thing, I do not.  Now if a god introduced itself to the world, and provided proof that it was a god (whatever that might mean) it would be a different story.

    1. lovetherain profile image70
      lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      So you don't even know what "proof" would look like?

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        If your God comes for his second coming with red dragons and lava rivers from hell. I promise to bow down my entire soul to be save because I am a survivor first.!

        Then find out who is behind the fake.

        1. lovetherain profile image70
          lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          I'm not a Christian.

          1. Castlepaloma profile image76
            Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            It meant to be open ended for who think there is only one personal God, who is the be all and end all.

            Wasn't sure if you we're, or not.

            1. lovetherain profile image70
              lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              I do believe in one personal God though.

              I don't have a religion

      2. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        No - I referred to just what a "god" is.  If a god:
        Did it create the universe?
        Can if violate natural laws?
        Does it, or did it used to, live in another universe?
        Must it agree with our (current) version of morality?

        Or is just an advanced version of the magicians we see on TV?  Maybe one with more advanced science and tools?

        1. lovetherain profile image70
          lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          I know very little about God.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            How can you believe in a god if you can't even define what the word means?  I'm confused here - if you believe in a god, then what are you believing in?

            1. lovetherain profile image70
              lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              I have experienced God's presence. I wish to learn more about God. He may be uncomprehendable by humans.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                What factors make whatever you experienced (whether simple coincidence, ET's, your own subconscious or just the machinations of another person) a god?  That was the question - what defines a god as opposed to other, natural events/life forms/natural law/etc.

                1. lovetherain profile image70
                  lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  Ultimate moral authority,and possible creator of the universe

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Then I am a god, for I am the ultimate moral authority (as defined by me) and possibly created the universe (you cannot know).

                    Moral authority is given, not built in.  If people do not give that authority then it does not exist.  And everything, every animal, every person is a "possible" creator, at least until we manage to go back and watch as it happened.

                  2. peterstreep profile image80
                    peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    If god created the universe who created god? Another god?

          2. MizBejabbers profile image90
            MizBejabbersposted 20 months agoin reply to this

            Perhaps you should have stated which god.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

              Cool. There's more than one? I had no idea you were polytheist.

        2. MizBejabbers profile image90
          MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Yeah! I hear you.

  4. aware profile image69
    awareposted 21 months ago

    I am a ancestors worshiper. And a

    1. lovetherain profile image70
      lovetherainposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      And a what?

      1. aware profile image69
        awareposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Ty for asking

      2. aware profile image69
        awareposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Interesting.  Sun worshiper

    2. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Did you know a house cat will jump sky high scared, if you show them a cucumber on the floor. The cat thinks it's a snake, because in their DNA from their ancestral cats who experienced real snakes in the wild. Except your ancestral snake actually talked your ancestors, and yet today your evil snake is hidden in all kinds of places.

      Looks like you found your black cat and your talking snake, I have not.

      1. aware profile image69
        awareposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        I am neither a cat or snake. I don't think you know what ancestor worship is. when I pray I look to the sky and  ask grandma or Grandpa I need some strength can you lend me some. My grandparents were not fake things and I keep their Spirit alive and well. ancestor veneration is one of the first forms of religion.now your analogy and disrespect for my deceased relatives and ideas is what hate and anger is made of.. for people like you it doesn't really matter if you believe in any kind of God. It's people that are going to tell you to go to hell.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image76
          Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          No disrespect toward your concept of God or ideas for whatever works.  I don't know you and understanding where your ancestral God comes from.  I do worship the sun, man, woman and child within a family. So that kind of world is my family. The grandparents concept is not too far off, just less importance then immediate family or adopted family.

          I have no hate or anger since I was 8 years old.  You make your own personal hell on earth,  let your God do the judging. I think everyone is God, If my dream is true. It would be nearly impossible to be dishonest or harmful to each other as everyone is God. If my dreams die, I may lose my mind.

          1. aware profile image69
            awareposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Sighs

      2. John Welford profile image89
        John Welfordposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        What a weird notion. My cat has seen many things that look much more like snakes - toy snakes for example! - and never flinched a muscle! I have had cats all my life and never seen this happen.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image76
          Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Maybe all your cats ancestors were house cats or never experienced a snake.

          There are many unexplained things that are pass down in our DNA from our ancestors, that can't be explained. I could be confused with pass lives within my DNA senses. Many cats have this weird fear of snakes. Many cats Nationwide attracked their TV screen, when this orange monster cat appear called Trump. Probably because he call cats lazy and useless or their owners disliked Trump.

          Even our happiness can be 35% pass down from our most recent ancestors, most of your own happiness is made up from you. The most important history of all, is to study your family tree and their backgrounds.

        2. Don W profile image80
          Don Wposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          I've seen this phenomenon (and blast you for making me watch cat videos).

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXv44YL_Gio

          1. Castlepaloma profile image76
            Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Lol. Many of those cats don't look like they get to go outside.
            Why would they fear for their lives as if it just resembles a snake. Yet, they have likely never experienced a snake? I think we and other species can be hypnotized or tramatize these memories into the next generation DNA also.

          2. MizBejabbers profile image90
            MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Now that is a funny video. Poor things. My cats today are housecats, but 25 years ago I let the cats I had then go outside. We lived near a creek and our yard was quite "snakey". Several times in the 14 years we lived there, one particular cat would come in with a swollen jaw from a snake bite. Apparently he wouldn't leave the snakes alone. We finally found the snake den and cleaned it out.
            I'll have to try this little trick with my housecats, but I don't think it will phase them. When we adopted our little black boy at age 4 mos., the shelter said that he was a street cat. We got the female at age 6 mos., and I believe she was always a housecat. They are both superb mousers.

  5. aware profile image69
    awareposted 21 months ago

    My outside cats kill snakes for food

  6. John Welford profile image89
    John Welfordposted 21 months ago

    What's a "house cat"? A cat is a cat - it goes in and out of the house as it desires. If you are saying that dislike of snakes is acquired genetically, then any learned behavior will not be carried down the generations - or are you suggesting that kittens are taught this fear at their mother's knee?

    1. aware profile image69
      awareposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      A house cat is not a outside cat. House cats peek out windows. Look down on the outsiders. The outsiders kill for a living. Don't mix the two

      1. John Welford profile image89
        John Welfordposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        I think this must be an American concept. Our cat has a cat-flap and comes and goes as he chooses. He gets fed by us and has no need to kill to eat.

        1. aware profile image69
          awareposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Inside cat

        2. MizBejabbers profile image90
          MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Could be an American thing, but we have so many dangers to cats, traffic in town, neighbors who put out poison, or in our neighborhood in the county, coyotes and vicious dogs. Statistics show that most American cats allowed to roam have a three-year or less lifespan.

    2. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      If a humans family tree carries too many alcoholics in their family branches. The next generation DNA is more likely to have more alcoholics too.
      Or could be your family tree be filled with wealthy financial members and you happen to inheritance and richer than most. Is it coincidence or dose it co-in-cides with your prior generation DNA. Since humans are animals too, cats as a manmal have ancestral DNA memories also.

      The Pope stated dogs go to heaven. Then why not cats?. Or were cats in a rowboat tagged along Noah's ark?  Good for a cat haters book story anyways.


      Going back as far as Jesus or Noah times so ancient ancestors would have very little DNA resemblance to us today. Just a few notes, fairytales and hearsays to make a book for the many Wizards of OZ''s. They make stuff up to be popular like Trump chosen by God, good thing the Pope disagrees.

    3. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Mother cats teaching their kittens how to be scary cats. Lol. Now jump high and  paws in the air.

  7. profile image59
    sabakrishposted 21 months ago

    Everything produces by nature.  I believe that nature is superpower God.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Yes can be, and love is the superglue.

  8. amnah sameed profile image60
    amnah sameedposted 21 months ago

    Yes , islam first pillar is that to believe on Allah and his Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Allah is always with you. A strong believe on Allah definitely leads to the success.And I firmly believe in Allah . When I need help in my life, no one is there for me. Then I prayed to Allah  3 times deeply ( Allah please help me) So he helped me where I would never have thought.And do remember. Time does not remain same. So stay positive ☺️.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Any proof of people that believe in Allah have ABC pillar of life and a successful life as they pray three time a day. Do Allah sheep even have more of a successful life than a Christian or Jew sheep?

      Is individualism evil or can a person be possibliblly stronger without a God?

  9. amaado profile image80
    amaadoposted 21 months ago

    God is God. No one can explain it. If someone says God speaks to him why should you doubt it only because you feel different?   You don't have to believe it. Yet you can't change it. The day you decide to meet God, you will know he exists; and some others will doubt your claim. It's not their fault, just like it's not yours. Someone can help you to know God but your relationship with God becomes explainable only by you. Those who relate with God can explain intuition, but those who live by intuition don't know anything about God. Let God be God whether or not you think he exist.

    1. peterstreep profile image80
      peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      If I tell you I have 20 million dollars. Would you believe me? Without proof?
      Would you say:
      You don't have to believe that Peter Streep has 20 million dollars, Yet you can't change it.
      Some may doubt my claim of having 20 million dollars as I don't act like a millionaire. But you have to believe me that I have 20 million dollars.
      Those who relate with me know by intuition that I have 20 million dollars.
      They trust me.

    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      The problem is this. In the 1970s Doctor Persinger did some tests with an EM pen. When he put it on people's heads they had all kinds of ultra real spiritual experiences. Some saw god, some devils, some angels, some saw Buddha, etc.,

      He refined his technique and built the god helmet.  Look it up.

      He can manipulate your brain so you experience talking to god. And the experience is ultra real. It seems, though, that what you experience is what you already believe in.

      Plus, one guy said he had the most amazing sex he ever had in his life, and several people had intimate conversations with living family members as well as people they met in the waiting room and the doctor himself. None of which could be said to have actually happened outside the person's mind, leaving all the experiences in the same category. 

      And again, I've had more spiritual experiences than most. I had spirits hovering over my bed debating what to do with me, kill me, or give me a chance to better myself. Jesus once told me to return to my body. It wasn't my time to die. I've met the Buddha. I reached states where I just knew everything .

      Problem is, you just feel like you know everything. You don't come out of it with any real new knowledge. That was what started me doubting.

      Then there was levitation. I was told I could do it. But even though I had enough training, I couldn't do it.  Neither could my teacher. And all the gurus that claimed to be able to do it were faking it, or thought they were levitating but weren't. Oh, but I do often levitate at will in my dreams.

      That started me seeing that all I had experienced was mind. And to prove it to myself, I trained myself to go to Middle Earth during a meditation, and it worked, and I loved it and I never wanted to come back. But I did.

      So then I knew I could have any experience I wanted by way of my brain, not the supernatural or metaphysical. I also started studying mind.

      What did god say to Moses when he protested and told him he had the wrong guy? God got miffed and said something like: You don't have to know what to say. Who do thinks puts the words in your mouth? And he goes on.

      The point is, I just read a comment from someone in this debate who's an artist and said they relied on intuition much of the time. Where do our great ideas spring from? Early man thought they came from elsewhere.

      If they invented bread, the god's guided their hand. They couldn't possibly have come with it on their own. Where would the knowledge come from? Hence, one reason we started believing in gods.

      any writer, artist, or musician, will tell you, it's like the character, the painting, the music created itself,

      Of course, now we know a little more about the subconscious. We can come up with novel ideas though training and experience and experiment. It's all in the subconscious. It takes even seemingly unrelated knowledge and combines it to form new ideas or concepts.

      I have a lot of experience trouble shooting. And when I come to something I can't quit find an answer for, I actively forget about it. Actively meaning I stuff it in my subconscious. Later on, without fail, I get an answer that seems to pop into my head. Usually it's a good one. 

      And that's where you go when you meditate too. The subconscious.

      So again, talking to god is highly suspect. You can have the most ultra real experience, and it can be, and usually is, all you.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        When I build a beautiful sandsculpture in a fairground or mall. Often someone comes up from behind me and says, God gave you that gift. I once response with my father gave my some guidance and mainly I work very hard for these skills.

        Often we understand estimate the power of our subconscious and our self hypnostizes. Or we allow the power to be like politics and religion to walk away with too much credit for own energy and soul.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          In a very real sense there's nothing but energy. However, I don't share your belief in souls. All I know for sure is, we have a brain. It, in total is us, as far as we know.

          Souls, like gods, are speculation that is not based on actual evidence. We assume a soul would be energy, as you say, but no one has ever seen a block of energy leaving a body after death, and yes, experiments have been done. So far, no evidence for souls.

          But what you say is partially true about the conscious mind. We allow consciousness to take far too much credit for who and what we are.

          In fact, the brain was developed due to more and more cells grouping together as a single organism.  It's purpose was the survival of the cells. But like bad politicians/government, the brain thinks it now the most important part, and the body is there to serve it.,  It's even decided it can beat death by creating gods and souls.

    3. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I believe in Thor,  and Hercules. My Gods are better than yours, Naaaaa.....

  10. Erudite Scholar profile image73
    Erudite Scholarposted 21 months ago

    Belief is based on proof. You are what you believe you are. I believe that there is a Higher Power.

    1. peterstreep profile image80
      peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      No Believe is not based on proof. science is based on proof.
      Believe is nothing more then speculation based upon superstition.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Yes a highly organized superstition with a world domination of Emotions.

        Belief can have faith or blind faith like in Religion. For something so grand for me to never understand would cause me great doubt. With such great doubt I would over focus on the problems unable to solve or get closer to.  Being unable to solve the ID of God and his path in life would turn me into a hypocrite or unhappy not able to solve many problems. So much of my happiness is how I solve problems gracefully.  I am the best leader in the world for my own enlighten path. I feel and experience great achievements throughout life. I mastering life for most part. Why would I ruin life by believing in a God, exspeically with religions hypocritical rap sheet history. 

        My last four Christian girlfriend dumped me in a row, because I could not be saved. It is a mouse trap for me and they can keep their obsessive King of Cheese whiz. They can keep their white or black Jesus with blue eyes. Or their Mohammad flying a white horse to heaven. Give me working love and nature of reality's to guide me. For I know how to make God laugh, ....tell him my plans.

        1. peterstreep profile image80
          peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          To me it's a much more profound thought that we are all made out of stardust (the poetry that lays within the knowledge of scientific facts..)
          Then to believe in a super being who created men and the universe - without explaining what created this God in the first place.

          1. Castlepaloma profile image76
            Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Yes, the dots connect much more solid to think of evolution is the source coming from the big bang and the Sun a smaller star.

            They say if you see God, he is so bright, you will burn up. The (sun) or son of God is probably another wrong translation.

            1. peterstreep profile image80
              peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              They say a lot of things about God
              Religion is just as evolutionary as other social behaviour.
              The concept of God is an Idea that changes over time.

              1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                The god of the Bible is not omnipotent as he cannot defeat an army with iron chariots. Why is he given two omnipotent attributes, "almighty" and "omnipotent"?  Iron is always in every one blood and throughout outer space as far as we can find and prove. Chariots of fire is one way to heaven as iron Particals could be one source of energy connecting everything. light ohas dual nature one is wave and another is partical.. how it can be possible to have dual nature

                1. peterstreep profile image80
                  peterstreepposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  spaced out man! ;-)
                  You must have read Erich von Däniken...The Gods Were Astronauts:.....

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                    Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    I did a poll here on  what was more probable to exist.

                    Sasquatch beat out Yahweh, and Aliens were three times more probable. Two Cristians did not know what a Yahweh was. Lol

                    Chances of Aliens is very high, even the Pope says Aliens are our Savior.

                    I still stand, it to be proven to me. Because no alien creatures had visited earth with solid evidence. With one exception of a trarigrad species that has proven it can live in space for some time, possibly from Mars.

  11. Readmikenow profile image97
    Readmikenowposted 21 months ago

    Some interesting replies on this topic.

    I don't think humans will ever be able to use science to identify God.  This deals with the spiritual realm and we are in a physical realm.  The rules of this world do not apply to the spiritual world.  So, science can't be used.

    Now, when anyone tells me they don't believe in God, the first question I have is "What do you think happens to you when you die?"  This is an eventually for all of us. Is it over and we no longer exist?  I like to think we all have a purpose for being here. 

    According to my belief, we are all souls wearing a human body and and doing the job we were sent here to do.  Then again, I also believe humans have free will.  So, you get to serve your purpose here or not, it's your choice.

    I did a story about scientific ghost hunters one.  Spent time with them on a few of their "investigations."  One of the ghost hunters had a Ph.D. in Engineering, another taught high school science.  None of them belonged or professed any religion.  I can tell you after being with them, there are things in this world that science can't explain.  These are their words.

    When I think of atheists, I think of my time in the military.  There were times we faced some dicey situations and at times it looked like we may not make it.  More than once I saw people who professed to be hardcore atheists cry out for God's help.  So, I think it's easy to be an atheist when things are easy.

    I've discussed this with Hindus, Muslims, Jews and others.  It's interesting how you can find tiny bits of similar beliefs in all of them.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I don't understand how most people prepare their whole life to be with their personal God. They call out to God for fear of the unknowns .

      Human only have 1% knowledge about the total mass of the earth. Spiritual is the 99% unknown until it is known and manifest into our ego self. Religion is based on fear, loose poems, and fairytales of ancient times. Spiritual is less about repeated lies and pass odd facts. It's more about the learning process of the present and future in order to master life. Imagination is more important than the pass or even present knowledge. As every achievement in life was all once imagined. Too many copycat Gods hypnotize the masses for their  control of others. Hypnotized yourself for your own desires and Destiny. Take control, be the king of your own domain.

    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I wonder if you really would like to live for ever. I know I wouldn't. I expect that when I die it'll be over. The energy that is me will dissipate and join other structures. It will exist forever, in one form or another, but not all as one entity.

      And what purpose could there possibly be? Only purpose you decide on. A gods purpose for you is it's purpose, not yours unless you accept it as such. And for that you'd have to know what it is.

      I figure, if someone has a purpose for me, god or otherwise, that's fine. But it's not my purpose. 

      And meaning. What kind of meaning? Living for eternity singing god's praises? No thanks. Sounds boring as hell.

      I'd like to live until I know everything. But what's after that? Nothing left to strive for. Time to pack it all in. 

      And really, most people don't know what to do with the life they have. Live for eternity?  Why? For eternal boredom?

      Don't get me wrong, I've had a great life. But I'll be very content to just not wake up one morning.  If I wake up dead, I'll have to re-evaluate. But I'm not sure I'd be happy about it.

      We'll see. But I need no purpose nor meaning for my existence, and I honestly see no value added if there were a god.

  12. abwilliams profile image66
    abwilliamsposted 21 months ago

    I believe there is one God; father God, creator, giver of life.
    I have no other explanation for the tides, the Earth's rotation, the sunrise, the developmental stages of life in the womb.....
    I feel his presence in my life. It's a peace that passes all understanding.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      A belief is weaker than a goal or dream in knowledge and intentions.

      Love/work is more powerful and peaceful than all the Gods conflicts, wars, copycat and mistranslations.  How can anyone understand ,when there is a million Gods to choose from?.

      Love is when I'm stronger together with things or person than being alone.
      God has too many conditions for his love. God presence is in your mind not using all your physical senses of the knowing. The source of all problems is in the mind.  Trust your gut brain for survival. Go beyond led with
      my heart brain, that keeps me out of trouble. Following God's always leads to all kinds of hypocritical troubles.

      1. abwilliams profile image66
        abwilliamsposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        What is love?

        1. Castlepaloma profile image76
          Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Closet definition I can find. Is when 2 people or thing is stronger together than apart. With little acts of kindness. Some people's ultimate love can be God, straight or same sex. Or a Man, women or child. Some wife had a dog as their ultimate love, maybe her husband is a worse dog than the other one. I ultimately love my daughter and my work. Can't master life without loving your work.

          1. abwilliams profile image66
            abwilliamsposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Can you see it or do you just know it's there?

            1. Castlepaloma profile image76
              Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              I feel it somewhere in the subconscious, or heart brain, you may confuse as God. That 95% white matter of the brain unknown

              Knowing love is mainly through time and the practice of love. Like a Rose,  not overnight, be careful of its thorns.

              1. abwilliams profile image66
                abwilliamsposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                I can be confused but you cannot?

                1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                  Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  We all get confused at times, I just wouldn't want a lifetime full of the BS confusion.

                  I'm always open, if I met your God. If I  asked him questions like I ask the Universe in my mind. Would I get straight forward answers? or more BS like Christian claiming to know him.

                  Got a few questions, Yahweh.

                  Why can't you save Satan, he believes in you?

                  Can't you organize your superstition & emotions?

                  Show yourself to atheist, they have great doubts?

                  Why dose your books and religion have the worst hypocritics and worst criminals rap sheet in the history of mankind?.

                  My last four Christian girlfriends, dumped me because I couldn't be saved. I am screwed, now?

                  Why do you look like the God from South Park?

                  If your all mighty, why could you not defeat the iron chariots, is it because we have iron in our blood and throughout the Universe?.

                  Will you laugh, ....if I tell you my life plans?

                  In time and patience I always find answers. For my happiness depends on it. I will never be able to understand God for answers will not come.

                  1. Readmikenow profile image97
                    Readmikenowposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    "if I met your God"

                    Since death is an eventually for all of us...what do YOU think happens when you die?  If you don't believe in God, what do you believe happens when you die?  It is a reality of life we must all face.  What do you think happened to all those who have gone before you?

            2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              It's part of you. Of course you know its there, unlike a god.

        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          If you want the real answer I'll give it to you. Humans either make things part of who they are, or they reject them.

          When you learn a new skill, you have to think about it. The better you get, the less you have to think about it. Riding a bike, driving a car, playing music, what ever. Eventually the bike, the car, what ever, becomes a part of who you are. An extension of self.

          Love is the same mechanism. You want to make that person part of who you are. We hear it in the language: She's my better half. She's part of me. 

          But before you get there you have to get to know each other. It's not just you trying to make someone part of you, Unlike skills, the other person is trying to do the same thing, which is where conflicts can come in.

          And, as I said, once you have accomplished your goal, it's on auto. Which is where the idea of your partner not trying as hard comes from.

          That's also why you can't love others if you hate yourself.

          And love for a child is obvious. It is already literally part of you. Hence we talk about blood coming first.

          Now, I could talk about chemicals and hormones etc, but that's attraction and sex, not love, although the best way to get someone to want to love you is though sex.   

          So love is the act and desire to make someone part of who you are.

          1. Live to Learn profile image77
            Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            You didn't explain chocolate.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              What aspect of it do you want to know about?

              1. Live to Learn profile image77
                Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                You were explaining love to abwilliams. I just figured you wanted to cover all love.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  It's all the same mechanism. But, your love of chocolate, or any food,  is also genetic and biological. You don't choose your likes or  dislikes, you just have them. Some people love it, others don't. And your gut bacteria has a lot o do with it too. The bad bacteria gives cravings for simple sugars. Good bacteria is happier with complex sugars and gives cravings for better healthier foods in general.

                  Yes, your gut bacteria is an important part of who you are, Good bacteria make hormones your body doesn't otherwise make, and yes, they talk to your brain. through the neurons in your gut.

                  Your gut, in fact, is an extension of the brain through a layer of neurons that control the functions of the gut. Some scientists have called the second brain, though it probably evolved first.

                  The brain needs sugar to work properly, so sugar isn't all bad. And dark chocolate itself is actually good for you. It's the additives and processing that makes milk chocolate not so good for you.

                  But again, if something is already part of your makeup, it's easy to love.

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image76
                    Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Some say chocolate is a substitute for sex.

                  2. abwilliams profile image66
                    abwilliamsposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Amen. The brain, gut bacteria, hormones, neurons...thank you God for these amazing and complex bodies of ours.

  13. paradigmsearch profile image60
    paradigmsearchposted 21 months ago

    One can believe in God without believing in religion. I wrote an article about it, but alas cannot share. As a side note, Google hated it. lol

    1. MizBejabbers profile image90
      MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I just went to your profile page to look it up, but there are only six articles. Where did it go?

      Anyway, I agree with you. I believe in a creator and gave up religions many years ago to seek on my own because Jehovah, the "God" of my childhood simply did not make sense. I have an article on my journey, but as you say, we can't promote them here.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Can you create a Creator without a religious guild book?

      2. paradigmsearch profile image60
        paradigmsearchposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Most of my articles are now on my own site. I'll spare you the gory details. And the site isn't listed on my profile either. big_smile

  14. PhoenixV profile image64
    PhoenixVposted 21 months ago

    All reality is concept and product of a mind: God.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Imagination is the closest I can ever get to God, I am a Creator too. I just don't claim the whole Universe just my own universe circle.

      1. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Your imagination sounds like a miracle and true freedom.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image76
          Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Well thank you, it's real anyways.

    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Sorry, that's Nonsense.

      1. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        The same predictable responses from the atheists. They claim they do not believe in God, but half will actually publicly entertain the notion that they themselves are gods and the other half are angry with God and judge him.

        Do you have an actual rebuttal?

        Physicalism and zany homemade made-up scientificky pantheism is false. Materialism, Physicalism what have you,  is redundant and is contrary to occams razor.

        All you have is perception.

  15. abwilliams profile image66
    abwilliamsposted 21 months ago

    I have faith and experience.
    The sunset that I witnessed last night, each and every breath that I draw, watching my three young grandchildren enter different stages of their young lives; one is learning to walk, one is inquisitive and reminds me so much of my middle son when he was young. The oldest, she requires a detailed explanation of every single new word she hears, she does not accept it until she fully understands it.
    I am so sorry that you don’t see these as experiences, made possible...through God.
    Every atheist seems to work so hard and exert so much energy to disprove God or explain him away to others and to themselves. It must be exhausting.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I"m an agnostic.
      I find it sooooo exhausting watching  between extreme opposites fighting over the Universe. It's bully Yahweh of over 2.5 billion hypnotized sheep dogs and sheep. Conflicting with science extremists. When the vast majority of the truer answers is in the middle.

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      "I am so sorry that you don’t see these as experiences, made possible...through God."

      The problem is not that you have these experiences, it is that you attribute them to a god...without ever knowing if there is a god.

      What is exhausting is not trying to disprove God (any god), but trying to explain that you cannot attribute experiences, events or things to a god simply because you are ignorant of actual causes and expect anyone else to believe it.  The reasoning process is faulty - "the sunset was so beautiful it just had to be from my God" - but the faithful never seem able to comprehend that ignorance does not show a god.  Neither does complexity, no matter how much it is claimed to do so.

      1. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Calling people ignorant is this persons most common practice because he cannot debate so he throws in the phrase " you are ignorant" under the guise of semantics.

    3. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      A search for truth rather than fantasy and wishful thinking is a life time challenge, but its  liberating. You have wonderful experiences, I'm sure, but you can't know your god actually exists. You have faith it does. That's not knowing with certainty.

      I have no issue with people saying they believe a god exists. I only have issue with someone who says they know for a fact god exists. They are lying to themselves and to others.

  16. abwilliams profile image66
    abwilliamsposted 21 months ago

    I am not fighting with anyone, just expressing my views on this particular subject. Have a wonderful day.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      If my ultimate love was God. I would be experienced to take on all challengers to lay out all my experiences with God and evidence to prove.

  17. abwilliams profile image66
    abwilliamsposted 21 months ago

    I don’t have Polaroid proof, but my heart, mind and soul knows, soooo....you must find your own way. Have a wonderful day Slarty.

    1. PhoenixV profile image64
      PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Polaroid proof is impossible anyways

      We can only know a concept of a Polaroid.

    2. PhoenixV profile image64
      PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      What is proof but the rationalization of mind or minds? The concept of reality appears self evident and awaited us. Only a mind or possibly even minds can produce concepts. The concept of reality is being produced by mind/s : God.

      Have a nice concept of day.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        God is certainly a concept.

        1. PhoenixV profile image64
          PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Concept is the closest thing to a certainty we can possibly know. That is a fact. Concepts are only created by a mind or minds. The concept of a table. The concept of a chair. The concept of the space between the table and chair. Someone is decorating or rearranging furniture: God.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
            Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            So chairs don't exist? They aren't concepts. They are real objects you sit on. You can call a tree stump or rock a chair. The word chair is just a way of saying a thing to sit on. Sitting isn't a concept, it's a real activity.

            A concept is a hypothesis. It may be fact or not. A chair is a fact, even if we don't see all the layers of its existence.

            1. PhoenixV profile image64
              PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              "It’s an awe and wonder and love for the totality and nature."

              Yet, according to you, if God had anything to do with it, then you change to: it is all immoral.

              Same reality. One minute its awe, wonder and love, the next minute its hot cold cancer and death.

              "Chairs exist, although we dont see all the layers of its existence".


              Seeing is perception. An image in our mind is created. A concept of a chair is in our mind. Not a chair. We may kick the chair. Nerve endings send pain etc. More perception, experience etc.

              We become so convinced it becomes real. But we cannot go to the Court of Reason with that. No proof but what resides in the mind.

              Earlier, in a post, you said if I read the Bible and it was some other book I'd say the ot god is a bad guy paraphrased. And that I had too much at stake or something.

              Oh but I did. Exactly as you said.

              Anyhow, you thought the Buddhists were right but your path took you to pantheism and you are now back to Buddhism.

              Maybe your path will lead to God?

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                "It’s an awe and wonder and love for the totality and nature."

                "Yet, according to you, if God had anything to do with it, then you change to: it is all immoral.

                Same reality. One minute its awe, wonder and love, the next minute its hot cold cancer and death."

                It's both. And again, intent is the key here. If a tree falls on your head is the tree to blame? No. But if a person hits you on the head with a 2x4, you're going to be upset. Why? Obviously because the tree didn't intentionally hit you. The person did. Any conscious thing that created this world is sick. Creating conscious beings that can feel and suffer, and making it so we constantly have to kill something to eat and stay alive is outrageous from a conscious thinking being. But if it is just a natural process, there's no intent. No one to blame. Just cause and effect.

                And this universe and life is awe inspiring and mind blowing. But it's also dangerous as hell. The universe facilitates us, but it doesn't "care" about us or what we do one way or another. Yet we are a product of it.


                "Chairs exist, although we don't see all the layers of its existence".


                "Seeing is perception."

                Fine so far.

                "An image in our mind is created. A concept of a chair is in our mind. Not a chair."

                And who told you that nonsense? How is it not something to sit on? Or are you just perception too?

                "We may kick the chair. Nerve endings send pain etc. More perception, experience etc."

                So how does that make it not real? You don't perceive that it's made of atoms, fine. But you're still seeing an interpretation of reality on this level. Or do you think there is no reality? If so, that idea shoots itself in the foot. Saying there's no reality is like saying there's no truth. Am I to take that as true? In that case your statement is false. If it's not true, your statement is false. So either way your statement is wrong.

                "We become so convinced it becomes real. But we cannot go to the Court of Reason with that. No proof but what resides in the mind."

                You've just described belief in god.

                "Earlier, in a post, you said if I read the Bible and it was some other book I'd say the ot god is a bad guy paraphrased. And that I had too much at stake or something.

                Oh but I did. Exactly as you said."

                So convince me I'm wrong.

                "Anyhow, you thought the Buddhists were right"

                About some of the ideas they had about energy and in fact, the interconnection of everything, proven true by science. Something the bible fails at time after time. But I'm not a Buddhist.

                "but your path took you to pantheism"

                Scientific Pantheism which I helped to create.  Not all forms of Pantheism.

                "and you are now back to Buddhism."

                No. I have no beliefs. Only models made from facts that I'll drop the second they are proven wrong without regret.

                "Maybe your path will lead to God?"

                Which one? Maybe I already found it. But' its not the one you believe in. Nor is it a conscious separate being. I know for a fact energy exists. I

                1. Live to Learn profile image77
                  Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  Can you imagine a reality where existence isn't cyclical? Where life can create life, with no corresponding death?

                  Arguing that existence is immoral is an immature understanding of the symbiotic nature of the totality of life.  And it shows a lack of ability to ponder eternal existence, where this moment you inhabit a human form is all you are capable of attempting to understand.

                  Fear, lack of self awareness, a lack of curiosity....i love actually meeting people who argue such points as yours; in order to get a better understanding of what causes such a barrier to philosophical thoughts.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image64
                    PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    I think we or I am wasting our time. Itsa wonderful world,  if it is pantheism. Add a god and we would all be knee deep in fuzzy vegetarian creatures where the plants all painlessly sacrificed themselves.

                    He is writing speeches to convince himself of what he already believes, but doubts.

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    “Can you imagine a reality where existence isn't cyclical? Where life can create life, with no corresponding death?”

                    Sure. I can imagine anything, which is part of the problem. But I’m not interested in imagination in this context. Only facts.

                    “Arguing that existence is immoral is an immature understanding of the symbiotic nature of the totality of life.”
                    Trying to put words in mouth? I never said nor implied that existence is immoral. Your god, yes. It is immoral, were it to exist. But not existence itself..  Have you read what I wrote?

                      “And it shows a lack of ability to ponder eternal existence, where this moment you inhabit a human form is all you are capable of attempting to understand.”

                    Wrong again.  I understand eternal existence and have pondered it likely more than you have.  So far I have seen no evidence of it, so while I don’t discount it as a possibility, I can’t say I know it’s true. Neither can you.  But what I do know is that when things die or fall apart, the thing they were no longer exists, but all it’s energy dissipates and joins other forms, and exists in one form or other forever.  So I know my energy will exist for ever, but not as me. 

                    And again, I know of no mechanism that would hold together a soul or mind after death, and there’s no evidence of a soul. So all that considered, unless there is new evidence that comes to light, I rather doubt souls exist. But I could be wrong, obviously. And then, even if they do it doesn’t mean a god’s involved. It could be the Buddhist version of a cosmic consciousness rather than your god, Or it could be about something else completely. Anything we say about souls is a wild guess.

                    “Fear, lack of self awareness, a lack of curiosity.”

                    On who’s part? I have no reason to fear anything. I have no stake in what the truth is. I don’t care what it turns out to be. I just want to know what it is. You can make yourself believe anything. But belief doesn’t make it true. So I fall to nothing, I give no faith to anything. It’s true or it isn’t. And if I can’t know which, I admit it rather than believing something because I’d like it to be true.

                    I’ve been curious and self aware all my life. I’ve studied countless religions and had countless spiritual experiences. I’ve studied science logic, theology and philosophy extensively.  Ask me anything. wink  One of my jobs is science philosophy.

                    “...i love actually meeting people who argue such points as yours; in order to get a better understanding of what causes such a barrier to philosophical thoughts.”

                    That’s why I come here to debate.  To make people think, including myself.  It’s a great way to teach, and to learn.

                2. PhoenixV profile image64
                  PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  It is not whether i believe a given chair exists or not. It is what I can prove or not. The mind is a remarkable thing. It is using senses to create holographic models of reality in our minds. Its takes the information it receives, like vision, for instance, turns it right side up and we conceive a concept of that vision. Very disturbing for you I can see. Get this, its a holographic type concept that can have motion etc, however it takes small increments of time for the light to travel and our brains to process, so its a concept of reality, in the past. True reality is an empirical nightmare. Not only does the images have to be turned right side up, the mind uses clues like shadows to create the concept of reality. We are biased towards light coming from above eg sunlight. Change the lighting to from below to up and it can fool us and is used for optical illusions.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    My point is, there are layers of existence. Each layer interacts with it's constituent parts, and the result is a new layer. Non-material energy interacts to create what we call particles. They interact to form atoms. The interaction of atoms forms a new layer of molecules. Hydrogen and oxygen form water.

                    Enough water forms rivers. Molecules form rocks and everything else. We humans create new layers too. A culture, an economy, etc. We don't see it, but they act on their own. No one controls them, they result from the interactions of all of us..

                    So which layer is real? All of them are. And in this one we perceive this form of reality. It's not an illusion of the mind, It directly relates to all other underlying reality.  .

            2. PhoenixV profile image64
              PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              ...even if we don't see all the layers of its existence.

              ...things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

  18. PhoenixV profile image64
    PhoenixVposted 21 months ago

    A concept of a chair is a fact, even if we don't see all the layers of its existence.

    1. Castlepaloma profile image76
      Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I"ll sit out on this one, too deep for me.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Oh come on. You can do it. wink

      2. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Why does the moon seem to appear larger when it rises above the horizon, yet seems to grow smaller as it tranverses the sky?

        1. PhoenixV profile image64
          PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this
          1. PhoenixV profile image64
            PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            My question is which moon do you believe in? The really big looking one at the first or the smaller one above? Me, I am going with the big one. There just plain more of it to believe in.

      3. MizBejabbers profile image90
        MizBejabbersposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Too deep or too ridiculous? lol

        1. Castlepaloma profile image76
          Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Like the joke of the big moron and the little moron sitting on the edge of a cliff.

          Who fell off?

    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Right. And so is the chair.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image76
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Maybe an ancient Chinese secret, can't afford the time, I am stuck at taoism.

      2. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Chairs exist through faith alone. Faith that your perception is true. Faith that you are not dreaming, under hypnosis or plugged into a matrix. A crazy person might believe a dog is a chair and try to sit on it. Even with the caveats, you have no objective proof of chairs. You have perception ability and an ability to ponder the perceptions created by your brain.

        Look, I have no problem with your faith and belief in chairs, but if you tell others you know chairs are a fact, you are lying to yourself and others.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          No, you are telling nonsense. It's not logical, sorry.  You have faith, I don't. Get that through your head.

          1. PhoenixV profile image64
            PhoenixVposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Phrases like: "Thats nonsense or thats ridiculous" etc is just another way of saying: I concede, your point Mr. Phoenix.

            Mr. Obrian, are you a big moon believer or a small moon believer? You sound like a small moon believer, to me.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

              You obviously live in reverse land. I say I have no beliefs and you keep insisting I do because you can't fathom not having them. . And no, I can't concede a point that's obvious self evident nonsense.  .Sorry. I know you wish you could win this argument, but you can't.

              1. PhoenixV profile image64
                PhoenixVposted 20 months agoin reply to this

                No, not reverse land, its - What I Can Prove Land.  Our perception of reality is just that: perception.

                Now we have moved on. Large moon, small moon. Which perception is true and which is inaccurate.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

                  Sorry, you haven't yet made an argument. You just keep repeating the same thing, which is demonsterably false.

                  A concept is an idea, often an abstract one.  A chair is not an abstract idea, it’s an object made of many other objects.  We all agree what they are: a device for sitting on. Sitting is a functional physical act, not a concept.  A chair too is a physical object as defined by having mass and taking up space.  Mass=energy

                  An idea doesn’t qualify as a physical  thing.  You can have the concept of a new chair in your mind, but once you build it, it’s not a concept
                  anymore, it’s a thing. Whatever you want to call it is irrelevant, but calling it a chair is convenient as a symbol anyone speaking English understands. 
                  No it has no natural name, we give it one, but it has a definite purpose and function.  It’s as far from mere concept as it gets. 

                  So if you insist everything is just a concept or abstract idea, then I hope you include your concept of god. I’ve heard Christians say that before. Everything on earth is an illusion, only god is real. But then, isn’t the same mind that can’t see anything other than abstract concepts saying only god isn’t one?  How would it know?  It can only do illusionary concepts. No?

                  So my having to go to work every day to pay for food and shelter is just an illusion?  Really? So I can stop and nothing will happen?  You bet something will happen. And thus, it’s not just a concept, it’s reality. Unreal things don’t do anything.  No one has yet  been attacked by the concept of a dragon.  Or for that matter, the concept of an AK47. Only real ones kill.  The concept that if you don’t pay your mortgage you’ll get kicked out, isn’t a concept, it’s a statement of factual cause and effect.

                  So if you want to be sure you know the difference between concepts and reality: real things have mass and take up space, and usually have a function if we’re talking about things made by and for humans.  All of us, regardless of our interpretation of the world can make use of the same chair for the same purpose.

                  Concepts don’t do anything until they are turned from concept to actuality/reality.

                  1. PhoenixV profile image64
                    PhoenixVposted 20 months agoin reply to this

                    "Concepts don’t do anything until they are turned from concept to actuality/reality."

                    You make many rational arguments for your Real Chairs Exist Theory.

                    Rational. Reason. Logic.

                    Yea. No. Those are in the mind too.

                    Do you have anything that is not a product of the mind to bring to the hypothetical table today?

  19. PhoenixV profile image64
    PhoenixVposted 21 months ago

    If I were to try and advance a Real Chairs Exist Theory (RCET) I would probably try the gravity angle and how hypothetically sitting on them impedes gravity or some force or another. But thats just me.

    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

      Yeah.  There is enough distance in and between atoms that you should be able to walk through walls, but you can't due to your electromagnetic field and the electromagnetic field of the wall or floor or chair. They repulse each other. Were that not the case, due to gravity, you'd have fallen to the center of the planet by now. Of course you wouldn't exist to fall anywhere.

      1. PhoenixV profile image64
        PhoenixVposted 20 months agoin reply to this

        Lets recap. In Scientific Pantheism world there are no chairs anymore, but you gained a moon. No wonder the belief inspires awe.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

          You on drugs? Or perhaps you need some?  What kind of nonsense was that?

  20. John Welford profile image89
    John Welfordposted 20 months ago

    In a word - Yes, that is precisely what I think. Nothing else makes any logical sense, and the notion of eternal existence in some disembodied form is one that surely nobody could imagine was remotely desirable.

  21. PhoenixV profile image64
    PhoenixVposted 20 months ago

    @ Mr. Obrian.

    I post from a crappy phone, so its difficult to post here.

    Kind of in line with Pantheism.  I was thinking today about infinite monkeys typing forever could type all the books ever written etc. But they would also type a lot of gobbledegook too. Plus they would not know what they are doing. As humans we can interpret the information of reality and some like Hoffman, suggests as you alluded too that reality is basically information. Precedent and example weigh more with me weighed against little or nothing else. We have information and we can percieve it. Some information seems unintelligible, just we might expect in a reality of just all information. There would seem to me a chasm between information and perception. The question is whether the information is being conveyed and whether it is intelligent and how would we know either.  Its like you say often. Are we the product of some 12 yr old alien kid on an alien computer in some basement. It seems possible. Is it reasonable to assume that reality is being conveyed. Even a monkey chooses to type or not or is it just mechanical and its in the mechanical nature to go off and on with some mechanical circuitry, would even sound like a device. Thoughts?

  22. Mark O Richardson profile image85
    Mark O Richardsonposted 20 months ago

    Yes, I do. Faith is a choice. My experiences back up my belief.

  23. BckSpace profile image60
    BckSpaceposted 20 months ago

    only if he believes in me.

  24. Glenis Rix profile image96
    Glenis Rixposted 20 months ago

    I'm too logical. But if there is a God, he may be omnipresent but he certainly isn't omniscient -  if he was the world would not be in the dreadful state that it has always been in. Too much starvation, war, selfishness for the world to have been created by a loving god.

    1. Readmikenow profile image97
      Readmikenowposted 20 months agoin reply to this

      I would like to know what you believe happens to us when we die.  It is something we must all face.  What is your opinion on the subject?

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

        I don't care. Why, do you?

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 20 months agoin reply to this

      Omniscient is not the same as loving.  A god might be omniscient but hateful as all get out at the same time.

      But beyond that, it is possible that starvation, war, etc. are necessary, somehow, to produce the end result that God wants.  I've heard the analogy of forging iron into a tool a million times whenever hard times strike someone - perhaps we go through bad experiences to produce a change that God wants us to have.

      Of course if God is omnipotent, as is often claimed, then the whole things falls apart unless He is also an infinite sadist.

      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

        My vote is sadist, omnipotent or not. Can we impeach him/her/it? wink

  25. Cheryl E Preston profile image87
    Cheryl E Prestonposted 20 months ago

    Did u ever ask Him to reveal Himself to u?

    1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 20 months agoin reply to this

      Thousands of times. And he answered. Or, my subconscious did. Again, through meditation I can experience or meet anyone, and have, including god, Buddha, the cosmic consciousness, Jesus, and anyone else I wanted to talk to,

      The mind is an amazing thing.

 
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