One of these days you will get to meet God, and my prayer is that you may come to know Him before that day comes. I am not going to debate or argue with anyone about the existance of God. Just look arround you, just think about the human brain and how complex it is. Man will never create a computer that is as fast and comprehensive as the human brain. God created your brain. As far as talking to other beings, you,re right I also talk to satan every day when he is shooting thoughts into my head, but I just let it go through my mind, not in it. I talk to my cat and my dog, but they did not create me.I know God is real because He lives inside me and sometimes I am so full of his presence I feel like I'm floating as an angel. A lot of people wait until their dying breaths to meet God and some of those people God grants His grace and gives the time to confess, and some never make it that far. God said "I AM THAT I AM" no He does'nt just exist. >>>>>>>>>"HE IS"
Just want to say I've plowed my way through this whole thread for the last hour or so and have come to the following conclusions:
1. You either believe in God or you don't.
2. There are as many versions of the belief in a Higher Being as there are stars in the sky.
3. Religion is a very personal thing and should never be forced down anyone's throat.
4. To believe or not is again a personal choice. It's just always amazed me how many times a non-believer has called for God's help in a moment of crisis.
5. An informal, personal belief as opposed to a structured, church-going belief is just as valid and full of truths.
6. This whole thread reminds me of a dialogue in a Woody Allen film.
LOL Ruthie! You're spot on, girl! I've said it before - it's one's perspective that shapes their views on something as intricate and diverse as religion, spirituality, and/or the belief in a higher being or consciousness.
Those with faith require no proof thereof and have a hard time understand the non-believers that *do*. Some can see both sides, yet have only experienced one. And, there are those who WANT to believe but thus far in their lives have found no reason to.
No matter how you look at it or where you rank, it changes nothing. It's all argument that cannot (by either side) be substantiated or wholly accepted by the other side.
I don't think anybody here is trying to change opponents' worldview. Well, at least the vast majority.
How about we just enjoy talking to each other, just for a sake of it, and this topic is as good as any other one, or even better?
Couldn't have said it better myself.
It's interesting what people's beliefs are and why they see the world the way they do. It's a celebration of our diversity. We don't need to all believe the same thing, that would be boring. Lol.
The great thing here is that Atheists and Christians and Pagans and Buddhists and people of all faiths or non-faiths can actually engage in a religious conversation, an ongoing dialogue.
Absolutely right, Misha.
I have no interest whatsoever in changing anyone's religious beliefs - I am just having a bit of a hard time trying to understand what those beliefs actually are.
And, as you say, it's certainly a great topic. Almost as interesting as sex or politics, perhaps....
We have had the longest, coldest, horrible-est spell of crappy weather.
So it's not just us here. We had sun for a little while but now it's back to the winter coat.
Now, I enjoy winter and the snow but there is a time for it to end. And that time is now! Lol.
I want to actually be able to wear shorts for more than 2 weeks this year. 2007 skipped summer and went straight to fall, rainfall that it is.
Would now be a good time to talk about the fact the daily top temperature here is never lower than 15 degrees C (60 degrees F), even in the dead of winter?
Summer sounds fantastic. I bet the heat doesn't get to anyone
Average daily top temperature in December (first month of summer) is 25 degrees C (approx 80 F) where I live. Last summer we had one day over 40 degrees C (approx 110F).
I get uncomfortable when the top temperature is over 100F, so we have air conditioning.
Sydney is actually incredibly temperate, especially near the coast. I haven't heard of anywhere on the planet with a better climate.
I am actually jealous at the moment because I live on the south coast of France and the weather sux for this time of year. Normally perfect but this year....
My brother spent 2 years in Oz and said the summers were a nightmare. I can't remember where he was though.
Kelly - I tried cleaning up your quote, but can't so I am not going to re-quote. I will stick for this now rather than get into a circular argument. I made a request of you, and I am well aware that you are putting your "Best to you," there for the benefit of every one else who may be reading the thread - not me, that's why I asked you not to do it. And this is one of the reasons there are no signatures on the forum posts here. You have just decided to make one yourself. It is slightly better than your first one, which I found offensive in the extreme, but..... Your refusal tells me an awful lot about you, but no matter.
This is the original question:
"If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); if He is outside of nature and natural law (because He created nature and natural law); if He is invisible and intangible and cannot, it would appear, be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever - then how exactly does His existence manifest itself?
In other words, how is His being here any different to His not being here?
If He didn't exist, or if He ceased to exist, how would you know? How would you recognise the difference between His existence and His non-existence?"
And you have not attempted to answer it. You have just been even more condescending. You may think that you are using "clarity," but the word you choose to use and call "god," must be something completely different to what I have experienced.
And I remind you once again - I did not ask this question. Not sure why you are unable to grasp that basic fact. I would have though some one who has found god could at least listen to what is being said to him?
I wish you all you deserve in this life and the next.
You are mistaken in thinking I don't wish you the best, the very best, in fact. I do. I also wish every other reader the same.
There is a headline to this thread. The headline asks a question. And I've answered that question.
The subquestion is a prime example of the mind machine trying to discern the existence or non existence of God. I've been kind enough to point out that the mind machine is unable to make that discernment.
The mind is incapable of that task.
Note that the final part of the sub question is as follows: "then how exactly does His existence manifest itself?"
God manifests itself though our experience when we are experiencing joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude. None of those actions are part of the mind machine.
The first part of the question, "If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); if He is outside of nature and natural law (because He created nature and natural law); if He is invisible and intangible and cannot, it would appear, be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever". . . those are all mental concepts, and Mental concepts are wholly inadequate in discerning God's existence.
There is every reason for you to be an atheist, because you've helped to demonstrate how one cannot find or prove God's existence though mental cogitation. In other words, we agree. There is no proof of God's existence...in the realm you are looking in.
The best to you.
I have to strongly disagree with you Kelley, God is not only manifest when we experience joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude. Those actions are souly part of the mind machine. Everyone can experience these forms of elation without the sensory conception of God.
mohit - good luck with it then. Did you look at that link I suggested?
Kelley - Perhaps you could explain how exactly one experiences joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude if not through ones mind?
They are experienced through the heart...the spiritual heart.
The best to you.
Evolution is only an imaginary theory in which no one on Earth is able to prove, generated by hopeless scientists who couldn't give solid evidence to back their fairy tales.
Grab a fish out of water, and put it on the ground. What happens next?
It wont change in to a lizard. Do it 1,000,000,000,000 the result will be the same.
Because God created the way the are. Variation may exist, but evolution is science fiction, only exist to serve its purpose: to entertain us.
LOL Here we go again!
Doji, please go to the Atheist rules! thread, it has an exhaustive discussion on evolution, no need to raise it again here.
Sorry...I was replying to Kitcy Witch's comment. I guess I click the wrong button.
Anyway, i still think it's related to the topic...
Hey, hey, hey now Misha my mediator God, this is a different thread, Atheism rules don't apply on the How do you know God exist tread. LOL.
Yes, Misha that was *well* worth the laugh. It never ceases to amaze me - the lack of logic that folks resort to.
Doji, you're welcome to post a new thread or go to the thread Misha suggested and I'll talk with you about it there.
No Kitcy. I'm not going to start a new thread or move to the thread Misa suggested. I feel fine here thank you.
The evolution thing was just a reply. I mean you brought it up in the first place...
thx for the laughter
Demonstrating an ignorance of the evolutionary process seems to be a popular tactic for "proving," god exists.
LOL you see...evolution does gets responds in this thread...I wasn't....I'm not and I shall not be a monkey
Must be a huge bummer for you to know that your classification is as follows:
ANIMALIA - CHORDATA - MAMMALIA - PRIMATA - HOMINIDAE - HOMO - SAPIENS
I bet that primata (primate) part really gets ya proverbial goat!
Your attempts to be defensive are silly. I asked you start a new thread for respect out of those who are having other conversations on *this* one. My post which prompted your response was a reply to another's "proof" of god's existence.
Actually, you are missing the point. It is not evolution that "gets responds," - it is ignorance.
I could explain, but as Misha has suggested, there is a good explanation of evolution on the other thread.
I know, that means reading - but I promise - People use small words that are easily understandable. Even to a monkey such as yourself.
Well, since Original Sin was eating from the Tree of Knowledge, then Ignorance is next to Godliness.
Therefore, offering up inane "straw man" arguments against a theory one does not understand must be a form of worship, an attempt to replicate the original state of Godly Ignorance before The Fall.
We should show these people some tolerance.
In fact, let's offer help and support. How about we give each new one a rating out of 10?
I think this guy's was one of the best examples I have seen offered in this forum yet, but we need to allow room for growth, so I'd be reluctant to go beyond an 8 for that one.
He gave up pretty quickly, so I think an 1/4 extra point is in order. Perhaps he is still reading up
I don't get it. Are we talking about the theory of evolution are we talking about the existence of God?
I personally believe that there's no room for the two notions. When the theory exists that God must step aside and vice versa.
I think the atheists rules in this thread also
Yes, it does, and at the risk of dragging us down again...it is unfortunate. Just as proof of evolution would not disprove the existence of God, proof that evolution does not happen would not prove that there is a God. One of these days one camp or another will have enough proof to make the other say oops, and then what? On to the next argument.
I urge my fellow believers to really spend some time contemplating the cost/benefit of continuing in this debate.
Excuse my digression, but I have been unavailable for a while.
I like your new avatar Sandy, it nicely complements the old one
My new thought for the day. No I am not angry but throwing something new into the mix.
I don't believe in peace because I have never seen it. LOL.
they say though, that this exist, but you can't prove it.
How about "I have never seen peace cause I don't believe in it"?
I think you have your causation backwards
nope, it is more like how it is said, I will believe God when I see it, there fore I say, I will believe Peace, when I see it. LOL.
I believe in peace and I also believe in God, but I have never seen peace, but a non-believer has, which in that case, I would much rather see peace then God, but I guess I can't have my cake and eat it too.
just food for thought.
OK, before we go any further, define "peace" please
a peaceful co-existence between all different types of people. To go further before it comes up later, I don't care about what God actually is, I just know for myself that we are here, nothing I can do about it, but ultimate world peace seems to be the goal of Jesus or so I think, but I have never seen it, and by the works of the Bible, it wont happen either, until we are all dead.
So, I guess then the proof of God would be if we actually lived in peace amongst each other, and that would be possitive proof, I guess. Ultimatly every religion, philosophy, and such talk about peace, but the peace I am talking about is about 99.99% implausable if not impossible.
I am 99.99% sure that I will die and go to "heaven" before I see peace on Earth. I am 100% sure that my idea of God exist, but 50% sure of a conscious afterlife.
Sandra, I *love* this reply! Yours is the type of brain that needs to be "picked". Your contributions are awesome!
The only way we will ever live in Peace is if people believe it's possible. People also need to understand the power they have. Too many people feel helpless and allow violent dictators and a small faction of greedy, war mongering leaders to hold the balance of power and dictate how we live in this world.
There is a phenomenon known as critical mass. It is the point when enough regular people believe in something and that belief causes real change to occur.
It happened in East Germany with the fall of the Berlin Wall. Enough people suddenly realized that they could end the Government and Military control over their lives and do it in a peaceful way.
It is absolutely possible when people believe in themselves and believe they hold the power to effect change. The problem is that most of the world's population doesn't believe this.
Most people feel they are not in control of themselves or their life or the world around.
Most people feel they don't have choices.
Even in Democratic Nations if you ask people on the street whether they are voting a number of people will answer: "What's the point, nothing ever changes, one vote won't make a difference."
Every choice we make including the the seemingly insignificant ones has an effect on the world around us.
One of the biggest problems I have with organized religion, especially theistic religions, is that they preach helplessness. Everything is God's will. It is God's choice not yours. Your life belongs to God or Jesus or Allah or......and you only live to serve God and the Church. You only live here on Earth as a trial to get into heaven.
Well that's not good enough for me. I want heaven on earth.
These doctrines were brought about by religious leaders in the Dark Ages as a method of control for the masses. The Churches wanted absolute power and they had absolute power for a long time. Unfortunately when you preach that human beings have no control over their lives it causes major problems in the world at large, because the people who aren't indoctrinated, the people who know they have power, can end up abusing it over and over again.
When the masses decide enough is enough no Government or Military can stop them. Look at the fall of the U.S.S.R. People had reached critical mass regarding Communism. It was not a peaceful end by any means but it did END. Major change was effected.
Each country, each person in the world has the power to change the world around them. A violent dictator cannot gain power if 500,000 people say 'no'. Wars cannot continue if the majority of civilians decide enough is enough. It's a sheer numbers game.
Too many people give away their personal power.
So that was my rant for the week. Enjoy. Lol.
Well, Rachelle covered the most of it. I'm pretty much with her on that. Just want to expand a little in the area she did not go into.
I think you can achieve the kind of peace you are talking about within your current earthy live - if you scale the scope down. Not the peace on Earth, but the peace around you. You can coexist peacefully with those around you who are willing to do this, and you can organize your life to exclude others from your immediate surroundings.
And I think this is the only possible way to the total Earth-wide peace. If everybody coexists peacefully with their neighbors, there is no place left for war
Exactly! My rant was already too long to be able to get into this. Thanks for bringing it up.
True, but then again, it really doesn't work out that way either because while I am pretty open to almost anything, my "neigbors" aren't. So while I open up the hellos and how are you's and such to almost everyone I pass by, there is always that one that get's bent outta shape as if I was doing something bad. Why this happenes, I am not sure.
Also, as I seem to see it, there is a tendancy to want to stick to what you know to be right and allow no room for discussion.
If everyone was like we are on this forum, for the most part because there is always at least one in considerable disagreement, to just agree to disagree but hold no hard feelings or ill will toward each other as indaviduals, then it would work.
I guess, the .01% who seem to bogg down the goodness and peace are the ones who hold the weapons of mass destruction, or just the desire to take life in the first place.
Or as I like to quote just a few things from the bible Romans 3:11-18. Which is why in these circumstances, men should fear God. As a marvel of contradiction, their never was any fear of God, but for those who cause wars, they do not fear God, in which case they should.
Ah but as you said it's the 0.1% who are opposed to goodness. If the other 99.9% ignored them, wished them well no matter how they acted and continued to hold the balance of power then these 0.1% wouldn't have the weapons of mass destruction, they would be ineffective because no-one would listen to them.
And people get bent out of shape when you're nice to them because they don't understand it. They are afraid. Afraid of life, of themselves. Because of their fear they believe your 'niceness' is a front and that if they're nice back you will take advantage of them.
Fear is the root cause of most destructive emotions and actions. Anger, greed, hatred, ignorance, it all stems from fear. If we can remember this then our own actions towards people will change.
Even if someone is mean to you or hurtful or spiteful when we remember that it is because they are terrified we can conjure compassion for that person, just as you would for a child who is acting out because they are afraid.
Now this doesn't mean you allow people to mistreat you, only that you can end the cycle of anger and hatred by not reacting to their ill will. By maintaining compassion for the person you are helping them even if it doesn't appear that way. Then you peacefully avoid having contact with that person.
If every person who behaved badly was told that they are a good person but their actions make it impossible to be around them, then eventually that person would start to look at their behavior. Sometimes this can take years or even a lifetime (for the most stubborn) but it does eventually happen.
The trick is to continue being nice and compassionate and to not expect anything in return. Just be the loving person you are always. This is how true change is effected.
I agree 100%.
I think I am on a percentile today, whats up?
That's what I'm trying to do in parenting. Man, this is soooooo hard sometimes! But doing this for a total stranger is way harder... But I agree, this is the only way to go
Yep, not easy, that's why Buddhists meditate so much to try and change the way our brain works. Also meditating on death helps. Sounds morbid but if you truly understand that this could be your last day on earth you don't want to spend it angry, upset, hurt etc. Good luck with the parenting, you are a brave man. Lol.
When you can be at peace with this happening, you will be able to live in peace with your neighbors.
While you judge them for it, you will not.
Jesus was at peace with everyone, even the people who betrayed and killed him.
You cannot ever experience peace until you release all judgement. Deciding what is good and what is bad (judgement) is Original Sin. Original Sin is what causes us to be expelled from the Garden of Eden (peace and bliss).
Surrender your right to judge others, and peace is immediately yours.
And you say jail had no impact on your level of enlightenment?
That's at least three times you have posted something spiritually profound and highly articulate since the last time I read this forum.
I know you always had a feel for this before, Misha, but your ability to put it into words has taken a quantum leap this week.
LOL - not that I'm aware of. I did not have any A-ha! moment there or something like this.
I think my recent posts are just the result of cumulative effect of many years of reading, thinking and exploring - and of several months of hanging out over here and talking to you guys You really are helping me to shape this into something more tangible, something I can rely on for guidance
Oh, I see your dilemma.
You are looking to see peace manifest OUTSIDE your Self.
As an absence of conflict between other people.
I don't think that's where Jesus meant you to be looking.
Did he not say "The Kingdom of Heaven is within"?
True, if one says that the kindgom is in Heaven then the birds will proceede you, rather, the kindom is inside you and outside you....
So Jenny, I found the kindgom inside, now I am looking for it ouside. Much love, Goddess of the Spirit.
If I said, that I did not want to manifest the kindom outside of me, I would be a liar.
I know I'm not feeling very Zen today and this is a topic I'm pretty passionate about. Lol.
I see too many people I care about living lives that make them miserable simply because they feel they have no choice. It's my mission in life to show as many people as I can that they do have a choice. Everything in this life is a choice whether we want to admit that to ourselves or not.
LOL, I guess we would have to ask a christain. My guess is half would say, they are the big fish, and the other half would say the small fish, and the Pope would say, it glutony, and Darwin would say, in another thousand years or so, I can make this work, an gnostic would say, ignorant fish, lol, the Buddha would say, it's just an illusion, but a fine joke. hahaha.
And God would say, oh geeze, whateva I give up and these fish. ahahahhahaha.
No. No there's no room for God in the theory, since it based on an assumption that the first living thing were created from an unliving thing through a series of "accidental" events.
God had nothing to do with it.
I'm a believer but i'm also a very reasonable person. i don't believe in ghosts and demons but i do believe in the prophets although i don't believe that they have magical power.
God exists, evolution no, nada.
God could have made evolution happen, but didn't. At least not neo-Darwinian evolution.
The Ergonom 500 microscope made by Grayfield Optical closes the casket lid on Darwinian theory. The link below (scroll down after clicking on the link to find the video "Symbiosis or Parasitism") has a video which shows a virus transforming into a bacteria and then into a mold/fungal form.
This type of transformation was predicted by Dr. Emanuel Revici who formulated the theory of "Hierarchic Organization." There is no mutational transformation causing the changes.
The best to you.
I think we have our winner!
10 out of 10.
What moron suggested to you , Kelley, that this video "closes the casket lid on Darwinian theory"?
This is exactly the organism that the Creationists on this list have been bleating "couldn't exist". This is an organism which reproduces its DNA WITHOUT the protection of a cell membrane (in fungal form - you can watch it on the video) but under the right conditions forms (or parasitises) single cells, to make a bacterial "spore factory", and reproduces using the material inside the cell.
Did you miss the part where the presenter said that this organism is present in EVERY LIVING CREATURE, INCLUDING PLANTS?
(The point of the video is that when someone has cancer, this organism get out of control and reproduces in it fungal form as well as devastating blood cells with its parasitic form - but under normal conditions it lives happily in symbiosis with us.)
This organism is the missing link between loose reproducing DNA in a fluid medium, and single-celled organisms - because it can be both, much as the axolotl can be both fish and lizard, depending on the conditions.
This organism is the most resounding endorsement for Darwinian Theory I have ever seen.
Whoever sold you the "nail in the coffin" story was either manipulating you for personal gain, or scientifically untrained and repeating dogma they had heard somewhere else.
You have to watch this video, everyone (it is an ad for the microscope, unfortunately, and my player wouldn't fast forward through the advertorial bits) - it is truly awe-inspiring to watch the cells stretching as their internal load of spores grows, and then see a little spore "pop" into the blood serum and swim away. There is also a bonus section showing heart muscle cells dying during a heart attack. Irrelevant to evolution, but again, magical to watch.
The key points to note - the tiny balls are the spores off to look for a place to reproduce. The big Y-shaped things make new little balls without the use of any cell, just by absorbing nutrients from the surrounds. And the infected cells make more little balls using their internal resources.
Imagine all this happening in the primordial goo instead of in someone's blood stream, and it is like watching Genesis ... breathtaking ...
So, I have to give this 10 out of 10 for presenting pro-evolution evidence and claiming it is anti-evolution.
This is several months late, but...
Perhaps I didn't express myself well.
Darwinism is flat out wrong. The Egronom 500 microscope proves it. Specifically today's Darwinism is wrong because we did not evolve through mutation. Since Evolution is so closely tied to Darwin, a different name needed to be used to describe what actually happens. It's called Hierarchic Organization.
For instance, a bacteria can mutate but it NEVER becomes any thing other than a new bacteria. It never becomes a fungus or a mold or a yeast.
So yes, there is 'evolution' but it's entirely different that what is taught in colleges and universities today.
Interpreting what is seen on the Ergonom 500 as Darwinism is to be blinded by the religion of Darwinism. You need to look at it as it's actually happening without placing your habit of believing in Darwin as an overlay. In no case does the bacteria MUTATE to become a fungus. It has never happened since time began.
Bacteria adds a layer of material which leads to the fungus. Viruses, bacteria and fungus make this progression and do so all the time. That's not mutational, it's Hierarchic Organization.
Neither evolution or Hierachic Organization prove or disprove the existence of God. It is impossible to prove the spiritual by means of the material. The spiritual can only be experienced by itself. It manifests as love and joy.
Just like an apple can't experience what is is to be an orange, the physical can't experience the spiritual.
Sorry I will respond more fully when I have had the time to watch that whole video.
But, I will quickly say this:
Darwinian theory, neo-Darwinian theory, and the theory of evolution are not all the same thing. (Jenny - we have a winner! 10/10 for sure.)
Perhaps the most accurate word to describe the current accepted most-likely scenario is "Evolutionary synthesis."
But you appear to be saying that because one "scientist," with a home-made microscope has "proved," hierarchical organization ," occurs, you believe that natural selection cannot occur.
Is that correct?
As far as I can tell from what limited information I have been able to find on the subject, Revici was working in a vacuum scientifically speaking, but seems to put forward the idea that evolution does occur, but using a different process that Darwin suggests. Is that also correct?
And couldn't the god that exists for you have made this happen also?
Well - Both the Catholic church and many protestant churches will disagree with you.
Speaking as an atheist, evolution in no way proves the non-existence of god, as far as I'm concerned.
There is no mention of "accidental," in the theory of evolution. If anything it seems more a case of "trial and error." And a pretty high failure rate as far as I can tell.
I really suggest you read the other thread before speaking up. Abiogenesis and the Theory of Evolution are two entirely different subjects, and I cannot make the leap of faith that is required to see how a failure to prove one automatically discounts the other.
I guess you think the grand canyon was formed in a flood that wiped the dinosaurs out too huh?
Or are you a dinosaurs-never-existed-it's-a-plan-by-the-devil kinda guy?
Although you are certainly going to be a contender in Jenny's thread
That's ok. I'm not a christian nor a catholic anyway.
wikipedia isn't my favourite source of information.
Could u give the link to the thread?
dinosaur? hmmmm only seen it on Spielberg's Jurassic Park
OK, Dojimonster, I just have to ask, if you aren't a Christian (which means by definition you aren't a Catholic, since they are Christian), why are you peddling this Christian pseudo-science Creationist line of argument?
I can understand people doing it when they have been taught that the life of their immortal soul depends on it, but what possible motivation could you have without that belief system?
There are other believes other than Christianity, you know....but that's not the point...
If it's not the dinosaurs never existed or the well they did but they were wiped out in a flood, there must be something else that makes you aggressively believe that millions of scientists have completely got it wrong.
The flying spaghetti monster did it ?
It's a long one, but I don;t see the point of going over it again.
I have never seen a living dinosaur either. But by your logic, I have never seen my great great grandfather so.....
http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Ev … lution.asp
LOL - You beat me to it. And as usual did a much better job that I.
Edit - Kelley, I will not be responding further on this one. It seems redundant now.
The most important human endeavor is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity to life. ---Albert Einstien.
thought it was a nice quote of the day.
Because I've heard his name countless times, therefore he must exist because.....oh I'm bored!!!! god is a simple anagram of dog....wooo hooo!!
The question for this religion forum is "How do you know God exists....?
My question is: How do you know anything? In other words, how do you know that you "know"? Or put another way (for those who doubt God's existence), how do you "know" that you don't know?
"Not knowing" is knowing that you "don't know" and knowledge doesn't come from non-knowledge just like intelligence doesn't come from non-intelligence. Therefore it is logically impossible for God NOT to exist.
The question before us is, not "does God exist?" but what faith points you to the real God? Since all religions' teachings contradict one another, logically they can't all point you to God. Since all religions claim to be the right religion you must look to fulfilled prophecy to point the way to the truth. Those who are sincerely looking for the truth here's my challenge: pick up a new testament (KJV) and read the gospel of John. Sincerely ask Jesus Christ to reveal the truth to you through His Word and He will and when He does you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free guaranteed.
then neither can you make the conclusion logically that I "cannot make this conclusion logically"
my friend, you're point is self defeating. If you;re looking for the truth just read the Gospel of John and ask the Lord Jesus to reveal Himself to you. And when He comes tugging at your heart, don't resist Him, let Him in and you'll be free.
LOL - All you guys keep on repeating the same old thing over and over and over and over.
Doing that does not make it true.
Plus any fool can see that there are many different interpretations of the bible. Yours is just one of many. And not a very popular one at that.
And you are not using any sort of logic in your argument.
Pick one - Logic or Faith. Which is it? You cannot have both.
Why not? You have faith in logic, do you not Mark?
Absolutely not. Even a dimwit like me can see it does not work in many cases.
Look through some of the threads on religion and you will see it is only about 25% effective.
"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Darwin]
Neither did Darwin, Mark.
I put my faith in ER doctors to save lives. Not the "Lord Jesus".
This approach doesn't seem to work.
The conclusion I come to when I read this statement is:
If what you are saying is true, there would only be one god. Therefore you are wrong.
And I am sure all the other religion believers will say the same thing. "Read our book with an open heart and you will see the light."
Here's the deal:
You are all wrong.
Contemplate that statement with an open mind, connect to your god, and the truth really can set you free. Guaranteed - or your old soul back
Through studying the scriptures, asking him in prayer and then waiting to receive an answer. The answer does come with such a sensation that you know you have received an answer. The other thing is if there is a God and he wants us to know about him then surely he will tell us if we ask him.
What if He told me He didn't exist? Huh? That one may take a while. You're starting to sound like Thom.
I believe one can possess logic and faith - most definitely.
In my personal experience, I have learned to separate the two. That way my spirituality can coexist with my love of science.
I guess that depends more on what your faith is telling you than anything else.
I personally do not have a clash between the two, but in the context we are speaking of, there was a fairly hefty clash. And his logic is flawed because it relies on faith And separating them would be hard if you believe certain things.
If you have faith that the world was created in 6 actual days 6,000 years ago, yet your logic and scientific evidence tells you this is not accurate, you are going to run into trouble.
Or end up making up a bunch of pseudoscientific "facts" to back up your faith-based beliefs.
lol! I've belonged to an Evolution Vs Creationist MSN group for years. We have an excellent fundie Hall of Shame there, too - and excellent discussion.
http://groups.msn.com/EvolutionVCreatio … page3.msnw
OMG (oodness) LOL
I am laughing so hard I can hardly type. There are some real gems there. This are some of my favorites:
"i won't debate the Bible with anyone that doesn't believe in it"
"i denie the evoltionist stand on contenental drift just like all geologists do"
"i could care less about nything that does not pertain to God"
"Darwin came up with his THEORY as a prank. he later recanted"
Although I think Jenny's winner beats all these.
There are some pretty good pro-evolution ones too.
Yep, those were the days when we had free MSN chat rooms! I can go back and read those and laugh until my sides hurt! I'm so glad they were saved.
I made it into the Hall of Fame (pro-evo).. under JeanneAnne. Wee!!
Well for One,I believe god exists because it upsets so many athiests/anti-gods
I beilieve that we are all born with faith in God. As we get older, we develope more of an understanding how things work. If we continualy seek to figure out every none essiential detail(as if God is out to get us) then we will loose our faith in God.
How is that detail non-essential? If I understood you correctly, this makes a whole lot of difference in life whether God is there to get you or not
The point that I was making by saying "non-essiential", was not to mean that it doesn't matter if God is there or not. We have to draw the line between faith and logic. There are some details that we do not need to know about God. We do our part, and trust that God will do His. It is this trust that allows us to develope a relationship with God.
hmmmm...interesting, I like that. Not the typical reverend??? What would our part be?
This is true you do your part and God or the cosmos will do its part- its a hand in glove situation.
In fact God is supremely intelligent and knows everything the past and the future .Something I do not know so I must have faith in my actions.God will come through.
Whatever you try do your best,
Unto God leave the rest.
At best, this is wrong, at worst a lie. If you truly believe this, you should take a look at the circularity of this argument, and the logistical holes in it. So a few questions:
Why is questioning how things work that same as thinking god is out to get us?
What makes you believe we are born with faith in god? Other than the fact that you believe, therefore it is.
This argument makes no sense. Its only possible purpose is to say, "Those who don't believe in god are wrong."
And those non-essential details are actually essential. Inconvenient if you are trying to push a non-existent god, but essential nonetheless.
This level of argument may have worked in the dark ages, but it's not going to fly now.
Welcome to hubpages
No we are not all born with faith in God-I wasnt .I thought god was a myth created by people to gain control.Some are born aware of God,some come across god later in their lives like I did and some will probably at the moment of death.
Those who lived a long life with multiple experiences and without faith in god, will certainly not believe in god even when he dies. With experience, he will expect death at any time.
One who has 100% self confidence need not have faith in god. Those who fail in something will look our for a saviour, and if no one comes to his rescue, he invites god.
One who expects nohing from God and have sincere faith in him will be the real god believer.... and there is no one like that among people... like god himself.
One who has 100% self confidence need not have faith in god.
This confidence comes with knowing god.You will do what you have to no matter what the world things .This is because you are being directed by god.
I have noticed its elderly people those who are close to death who become more spiritual or believers in God even though they were atheists all there lives..
Like I said before one must do his thing and God does his. When God directs me to do something I obviously expect him to be taking care of the rest which he does.
While alive a human can become enlightened a god man ,that is fuse with God become One.
With experience, he will expect death at any time.
What is death?
Someone who doesnt know god doesnt know death.
So he is not confident.
God and death cannot be clubbed. Death is a natural phenomenon. God is something else.. a source of income for many... a source of peace for some, a source of interesting and heated argument for a few... whether god exists or not, I am not going to argue. But when someone insists others to believe god and threatens that something will happen if he does not believe god, the whole theory of god loses its substance. Everyone should have the right to believe or bely god.
People who claim to be practical,
Lost souls indeed theatrical.
All your practicalities will seieze to exist,
The moment death you seize to resist.
One must die to be one with God. they are clubbed one cannot be without the other
I agree everyone has his or her own right to think how they want.I cannot force anyone to believe god exists .I share my story ,thats my job not how someone else takes it ,thats his perogative.
I believe there is a God. I can't prove there is. If I made the statement "God does not exist" I could not prove that either. Sort of a stalemate
It certainly is interesting how many of you base your belief on the fact that it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist when the proof is all around.
When philosophers like Friedrich Nietzsche made the statement god is dead .What they were trying to do is remove the strange notions man had made about god.
I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. I can't prove it.
I even have a video of it on my Hub, but I realise that even video evidence may not be considered sufficient proof by the unbelievers, lost and deluded as they are.
http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Church-Of-T … ti-Monster
But if I made the statement "The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist" I couldn't prove that either.
Especially with all the video evidence of its existence.
Yep, definitely a stalemate. But I know I am right, so the stalemate doesn't bother me.
GOD EXIST. HE IS SELF EXISTENT,ETERNAL,UNCHANGEABLE,OMNIPRESENT,OMNISCIENT,OMNIPOTENT AND INFINTE. "FOR I AM THE LORD, I CHANGE NOT" MALACI 3:6. ALL THINGS PAST,PRESENT AND FUTURE ARE KNOWN TO GOD.
FOR THE NON BELIEVERS, THE SCRIPTURE SAYS IN PSALMS 53:1 "THE FOOL HATH SAID IN HIS HEART, THERE IS NO GOD. CORRUPT ARE THEY, AND HAVE DONE ABOMINABLE INIQUITY: THERE IS NON THAT DOETH GOOD."
1 JOHN 2:22 SAYS,"WHO IS A LIAR BUT HE THAT DENIETH THAT JESUS ISTHE CHRIST? HE IS ANTICHRIST, THAT DENIETH THE FATHER AND THE SON."
2ND JOHN 7 SAYS "FOR MANY DECEIVERS ARE ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, WHO CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. THIS IS A DECEIVER AND AN ANTICHRIST."
1ST JON 2:18,"LITTLE CHILDREN,IT IS THE LAST TIME: AND AS YE HAVE HEARD THAT ANTICHRIST SHALL COME, EVEN NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRIST; WHERE BY WE KNOW IT IS THE LAST TIME.
SEE, GOD KNEW FROM BEFORE MEN THAT THERE WOULD BE NON BELIEVERS AND THEY ARE THE ANTICHRIST. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON THERE SOUL.
Using all caps in forum threads is considered to be shouting and very rude.
Oh well. I like to think I must be a faster typist than you, but as I am a two fingered typist, I doubt it. Seriously liked your poem the other day by the way. Not a big poetry fan, but I know quality writing when I read it.
God learned about lower case quite early in his development.
Sorry, I am new to this. Thanks for informing me. I am not trying to shout and I am definitely not rude. So again I apologize and am not here for a wrong impression.
The question is this:
If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); if He is outside of nature and natural law (because He created nature and natural law); if He is invisible and intangible and cannot, it would appear, be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever - then how exactly does His existence manifest itself?
In other words, how is His being here any different to His not being here?
If He didn't exist, or if He ceased to exist, how would you know? How would you recognise the difference between His existence and His non-existence?
As I say, I think this is quite an important question, as it raises all sorts of issues about the way we "know" that something (anything!) exists. It is particularly important, I think, when it comes to the existence of non-physical, non-material entities
My answer is this:
first, i would say that God is not outside of time and space, but IS time and space because it is of the energy with which God IS. God is not outside nature and natural law, but IS nature and natural law because it is of the energy with which God IS. God is not intangible or invisible because the energy that God IS is what makes up the substance of all things.
Alpha/Energy is the beginning...Omega/Mater (Latin) is the end (the result/manifestation of Alpha energy put forth)
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