How do you know God exists ....?
- RUTHIE17posted 16 years ago
0Just want to say I've plowed my way through this whole thread for the last hour or so and have come to the following conclusions:
1. You either believe in God or you don't.
2. There are as many versions of the belief in a Higher Being as there are stars in the sky.
3. Religion is a very personal thing and should never be forced down anyone's throat.
4. To believe or not is again a personal choice. It's just always amazed me how many times a non-believer has called for God's help in a moment of crisis.
5. An informal, personal belief as opposed to a structured, church-going belief is just as valid and full of truths.
6. This whole thread reminds me of a dialogue in a Woody Allen film.
I don't think anybody here is trying to change opponents' worldview. Well, at least the vast majority.
How about we just enjoy talking to each other, just for a sake of it, and this topic is as good as any other one, or even better?Couldn't have said it better myself.
It's interesting what people's beliefs are and why they see the world the way they do. It's a celebration of our diversity. We don't need to all believe the same thing, that would be boring. Lol.
The great thing here is that Atheists and Christians and Pagans and Buddhists and people of all faiths or non-faiths can actually engage in a religious conversation, an ongoing dialogue.
That's important.
- RFoxposted 16 years ago0
Wait.....did Thom just agree with someone about God?
- RFoxposted 16 years ago0
- RFoxposted 16 years ago0
If there is a God tell him to turn on Spring already.
- RFoxposted 16 years ago0
So it's not just us here. We had sun for a little while but now it's back to the winter coat.
Now, I enjoy winter and the snow but there is a time for it to end. And that time is now! Lol.
I want to actually be able to wear shorts for more than 2 weeks this year. 2007 skipped summer and went straight to fall, rainfall that it is.Would now be a good time to talk about the fact the daily top temperature here is never lower than 15 degrees C (60 degrees F), even in the dead of winter?
JennySummer sounds fantastic. I bet the heat doesn't get to anyone
Kelly - I tried cleaning up your quote, but can't so I am not going to re-quote. I will stick for this now rather than get into a circular argument. I made a request of you, and I am well aware that you are putting your "Best to you," there for the benefit of every one else who may be reading the thread - not me, that's why I asked you not to do it. And this is one of the reasons there are no signatures on the forum posts here. You have just decided to make one yourself. It is slightly better than your first one, which I found offensive in the extreme, but.....
Your refusal tells me an awful lot about you, but no matter.
This is the original question:
"If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); if He is outside of nature and natural law (because He created nature and natural law); if He is invisible and intangible and cannot, it would appear, be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever - then how exactly does His existence manifest itself?
In other words, how is His being here any different to His not being here?
If He didn't exist, or if He ceased to exist, how would you know? How would you recognise the difference between His existence and His non-existence?"
And you have not attempted to answer it. You have just been even more condescending. You may think that you are using "clarity," but the word you choose to use and call "god," must be something completely different to what I have experienced.
Apology accepted.
And I remind you once again - I did not ask this question. Not sure why you are unable to grasp that basic fact. I would have though some one who has found god could at least listen to what is being said to him?
I wish you all you deserve in this life and the next.Sorry...I was replying to Kitcy Witch's comment. I guess I click the wrong button.
Anyway, i still think it's related to the topic...
Yes, Misha that was *well* worth the laugh.
It never ceases to amaze me - the lack of logic that folks resort to.
Doji, you're welcome to post a new thread or go to the thread Misha suggested and I'll talk with you about it there.No Kitcy. I'm not going to start a new thread or move to the thread Misa suggested. I feel fine here thank you.
The evolution thing was just a reply. I mean you brought it up in the first place...
thx for the laughter
Demonstrating an ignorance of the evolutionary process seems to be a popular tactic for "proving," god exists.
LOL you see...evolution does gets responds in this thread...I wasn't....I'm not and I shall not be a monkey
I think he was actually trying to be silly. but like RFox says, it is sorta hard to know what the other person is saying when you can't actually see his expressions or hear his laugh. Though it is probably why he uses the
.
Actually, you are missing the point. It is not evolution that "gets responds," - it is ignorance.
I could explain, but as Misha has suggested, there is a good explanation of evolution on the other thread.
I know, that means reading - but I promise - People use small words that are easily understandable. Even to a monkey such as yourself.
He gave up pretty quickly, so I think an 1/4 extra point is in order. Perhaps he is still reading up
I don't get it. Are we talking about the theory of evolution are we talking about the existence of God?
I personally believe that there's no room for the two notions. When the theory exists that God must step aside and vice versa.
I think the atheists rules in this thread also
I like your new avatar Sandy, it nicely complements the old one
welll shank you.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
My new thought for the day. No I am not angry but throwing something new into the mix.
I don't believe in peace because I have never seen it. LOL.
they say though, that this exist, but you can't prove it. How about "I have never seen peace cause I don't believe in it"?
I think you have your causation backwardsa peaceful co-existence between all different types of people. To go further before it comes up later, I don't care about what God actually is, I just know for myself that we are here, nothing I can do about it, but ultimate world peace seems to be the goal of Jesus or so I think, but I have never seen it, and by the works of the Bible, it wont happen either, until we are all dead.
So, I guess then the proof of God would be if we actually lived in peace amongst each other, and that would be possitive proof, I guess. Ultimatly every religion, philosophy, and such talk about peace, but the peace I am talking about is about 99.99% implausable if not impossible.
I am 99.99% sure that I will die and go to "heaven" before I see peace on Earth. I am 100% sure that my idea of God exist, but 50% sure of a conscious afterlife.Sandra, I *love* this reply! Yours is the type of brain that needs to be "picked". Your contributions are awesome!
thanks sweetie!
The only way we will ever live in Peace is if people believe it's possible. People also need to understand the power they have. Too many people feel helpless and allow violent dictators and a small faction of greedy, war mongering leaders to hold the balance of power and dictate how we live in this world.
There is a phenomenon known as critical mass. It is the point when enough regular people believe in something and that belief causes real change to occur.
It happened in East Germany with the fall of the Berlin Wall. Enough people suddenly realized that they could end the Government and Military control over their lives and do it in a peaceful way.
It is absolutely possible when people believe in themselves and believe they hold the power to effect change. The problem is that most of the world's population doesn't believe this.
Most people feel they are not in control of themselves or their life or the world around.
Most people feel they don't have choices.
Even in Democratic Nations if you ask people on the street whether they are voting a number of people will answer: "What's the point, nothing ever changes, one vote won't make a difference."
Every choice we make including the the seemingly insignificant ones has an effect on the world around us.
One of the biggest problems I have with organized religion, especially theistic religions, is that they preach helplessness. Everything is God's will. It is God's choice not yours. Your life belongs to God or Jesus or Allah or......and you only live to serve God and the Church. You only live here on Earth as a trial to get into heaven.
Well that's not good enough for me. I want heaven on earth.
These doctrines were brought about by religious leaders in the Dark Ages as a method of control for the masses. The Churches wanted absolute power and they had absolute power for a long time. Unfortunately when you preach that human beings have no control over their lives it causes major problems in the world at large, because the people who aren't indoctrinated, the people who know they have power, can end up abusing it over and over again.
When the masses decide enough is enough no Government or Military can stop them. Look at the fall of the U.S.S.R. People had reached critical mass regarding Communism. It was not a peaceful end by any means but it did END. Major change was effected.
Each country, each person in the world has the power to change the world around them. A violent dictator cannot gain power if 500,000 people say 'no'. Wars cannot continue if the majority of civilians decide enough is enough. It's a sheer numbers game.
Too many people give away their personal power.
So that was my rant for the week. Enjoy. Lol.Well, Rachelle covered the most of it. I'm pretty much with her on that. Just want to expand a little in the area she did not go into.
I think you can achieve the kind of peace you are talking about within your current earthy live - if you scale the scope down. Not the peace on Earth, but the peace around you. You can coexist peacefully with those around you who are willing to do this, and you can organize your life to exclude others from your immediate surroundings.
And I think this is the only possible way to the total Earth-wide peace. If everybody coexists peacefully with their neighbors, there is no place left for warExactly! My rant was already too long to be able to get into this. Thanks for bringing it up.
True, but then again, it really doesn't work out that way either because while I am pretty open to almost anything, my "neigbors" aren't. So while I open up the hellos and how are you's and such to almost everyone I pass by, there is always that one that get's bent outta shape as if I was doing something bad. Why this happenes, I am not sure.
Also, as I seem to see it, there is a tendancy to want to stick to what you know to be right and allow no room for discussion.
If everyone was like we are on this forum, for the most part because there is always at least one in considerable disagreement, to just agree to disagree but hold no hard feelings or ill will toward each other as indaviduals, then it would work.
I guess, the .01% who seem to bogg down the goodness and peace are the ones who hold the weapons of mass destruction, or just the desire to take life in the first place.
Or as I like to quote just a few things from the bible Romans 3:11-18. Which is why in these circumstances, men should fear God. As a marvel of contradiction, their never was any fear of God, but for those who cause wars, they do not fear God, in which case they should. Ah but as you said it's the 0.1% who are opposed to goodness. If the other 99.9% ignored them, wished them well no matter how they acted and continued to hold the balance of power then these 0.1% wouldn't have the weapons of mass destruction, they would be ineffective because no-one would listen to them.
And people get bent out of shape when you're nice to them because they don't understand it. They are afraid. Afraid of life, of themselves. Because of their fear they believe your 'niceness' is a front and that if they're nice back you will take advantage of them.
Fear is the root cause of most destructive emotions and actions. Anger, greed, hatred, ignorance, it all stems from fear. If we can remember this then our own actions towards people will change.
Even if someone is mean to you or hurtful or spiteful when we remember that it is because they are terrified we can conjure compassion for that person, just as you would for a child who is acting out because they are afraid.
Now this doesn't mean you allow people to mistreat you, only that you can end the cycle of anger and hatred by not reacting to their ill will. By maintaining compassion for the person you are helping them even if it doesn't appear that way. Then you peacefully avoid having contact with that person.
If every person who behaved badly was told that they are a good person but their actions make it impossible to be around them, then eventually that person would start to look at their behavior. Sometimes this can take years or even a lifetime (for the most stubborn) but it does eventually happen.
The trick is to continue being nice and compassionate and to not expect anything in return. Just be the loving person you are always. This is how true change is effected.I agree 100%.
I think I am on a percentile today, whats up?One of those math kinda days. Lol.
Interesting Avatar.
Yep, not easy, that's why Buddhists meditate so much to try and change the way our brain works. Also meditating on death helps. Sounds morbid but if you truly understand that this could be your last day on earth you don't want to spend it angry, upset, hurt etc. Good luck with the parenting, you are a brave man. Lol.
LOL - not that I'm aware of. I did not have any A-ha! moment there or something like this.
I think my recent posts are just the result of cumulative effect of many years of reading, thinking and exploring - and of several months of hanging out over here and talking to you guys You really are helping me to shape this into something more tangible, something I can rely on for guidance
True, if one says that the kindgom is in Heaven then the birds will proceede you, rather, the kindom is inside you and outside you....
So Jenny, I found the kindgom inside, now I am looking for it ouside. Much love, Goddess of the Spirit. If I said, that I did not want to manifest the kindom outside of me, I would be a liar.
I know I'm not feeling very Zen today and this is a topic I'm pretty passionate about. Lol.
I see too many people I care about living lives that make them miserable simply because they feel they have no choice. It's my mission in life to show as many people as I can that they do have a choice. Everything in this life is a choice whether we want to admit that to ourselves or not.
LOL Sandy, which fish is the Christian one?
LOL, I guess we would have to ask a christain. My guess is half would say, they are the big fish, and the other half would say the small fish, and the Pope would say, it glutony, and Darwin would say, in another thousand years or so, I can make this work, an gnostic would say, ignorant fish, lol, the Buddha would say, it's just an illusion, but a fine joke. hahaha.
And God would say, oh geeze, whateva I give up and these fish. ahahahhahaha.
LOL
Well - Both the Catholic church and many protestant churches will disagree with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
Speaking as an atheist, evolution in no way proves the non-existence of god, as far as I'm concerned.
There is no mention of "accidental," in the theory of evolution. If anything it seems more a case of "trial and error." And a pretty high failure rate as far as I can tell.
I really suggest you read the other thread before speaking up. Abiogenesis and the Theory of Evolution are two entirely different subjects, and I cannot make the leap of faith that is required to see how a failure to prove one automatically discounts the other.
I guess you think the grand canyon was formed in a flood that wiped the dinosaurs out too huh?
Or are you a dinosaurs-never-existed-it's-a-plan-by-the-devil kinda guy?
Although you are certainly going to be a contender in Jenny's threadWe're waiting.
If it's not the dinosaurs never existed or the well they did but they were wiped out in a flood, there must be something else that makes you aggressively believe that millions of scientists have completely got it wrong.
The flying spaghetti monster did it ?
LOL but I know my great great great father existed, I'm the living proof
LOL - You beat me to it.
And as usual did a much better job that I.
Edit - Kelley, I will not be responding further on this one. It seems redundant now.- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
The most important human endeavor is the striving for morality in our actions. Our inner balance and even our very existence depend on it. Only morality in our actions can give beauty and dignity to life. ---Albert Einstien.
thought it was a nice quote of the day. Morality is a relative category Sandy
LOL - All you guys keep on repeating the same old thing over and over and over and over.
Doing that does not make it true.
Plus any fool can see that there are many different interpretations of the bible. Yours is just one of many. And not a very popular one at that.
And you are not using any sort of logic in your argument.
Pick one - Logic or Faith. Which is it? You cannot have both.Absolutely not. Even a dimwit like me can see it does not work in many cases.
Look through some of the threads on religion and you will see it is only about 25% effective."It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Darwin]
Neither did Darwin, Mark.
P.S.
I put my faith in ER doctors to save lives. Not the "Lord Jesus".
This approach doesn't seem to work.
The conclusion I come to when I read this statement is:
If what you are saying is true, there would only be one god. Therefore you are wrong.
And I am sure all the other religion believers will say the same thing. "Read our book with an open heart and you will see the light."
Here's the deal:
You are all wrong.
Contemplate that statement with an open mind, connect to your god, and the truth really can set you free. Guaranteed - or your old soul back
Doesn't really answer the question though. And what if he tells you he doesn't exist?
Work that one out.
Hey Peter.
sandra - sounds like you're getting it.
I guess that depends more on what your faith is telling you than anything else.
I personally do not have a clash between the two, but in the context we are speaking of, there was a fairly hefty clash. And his logic is flawed because it relies on faith And separating them would be hard if you believe certain things.
If you have faith that the world was created in 6 actual days 6,000 years ago, yet your logic and scientific evidence tells you this is not accurate, you are going to run into trouble.
Or end up making up a bunch of pseudoscientific "facts" to back up your faith-based beliefs.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/4393Too funny!
It will be nice when we all figure out we are all in this together. I look forward to that day...
OMG (oodness) LOL
I am laughing so hard I can hardly type. There are some real gems there. This are some of my favorites:
"i won't debate the Bible with anyone that doesn't believe in it"
"i denie the evoltionist stand on contenental drift just like all geologists do"
"i could care less about nything that does not pertain to God"
"Darwin came up with his THEORY as a prank. he later recanted"
Although I think Jenny's winner beats all these.
There are some pretty good pro-evolution ones too.- Graceful Guardianposted 16 years ago0
is anit-gods different from anti-God?
How is that detail non-essential? If I understood you correctly, this makes a whole lot of difference in life whether God is there to get you or not
hmmmm...interesting, I like that. Not the typical reverend??? What would our part be?
This is true you do your part and God or the cosmos will do its part- its a hand in glove situation.
In fact God is supremely intelligent and knows everything the past and the future .Something I do not know so I must have faith in my actions.God will come through.
Whatever you try do your best,
Unto God leave the rest.
At best, this is wrong, at worst a lie. If you truly believe this, you should take a look at the circularity of this argument, and the logistical holes in it. So a few questions:
Why is questioning how things work that same as thinking god is out to get us?
What makes you believe we are born with faith in god? Other than the fact that you believe, therefore it is.
This argument makes no sense. Its only possible purpose is to say, "Those who don't believe in god are wrong."
And those non-essential details are actually essential. Inconvenient if you are trying to push a non-existent god, but essential nonetheless.
This level of argument may have worked in the dark ages, but it's not going to fly now.
Welcome to hubpagesNo we are not all born with faith in God-I wasnt .I thought god was a myth created by people to gain control.Some are born aware of God,some come across god later in their lives like I did and some will probably at the moment of death.
One who has 100% self confidence need not have faith in god.
This confidence comes with knowing god.You will do what you have to no matter what the world things .This is because you are being directed by god.
I have noticed its elderly people those who are close to death who become more spiritual or believers in God even though they were atheists all there lives..
Like I said before one must do his thing and God does his. When God directs me to do something I obviously expect him to be taking care of the rest which he does.
While alive a human can become enlightened a god man ,that is fuse with God become One.
With experience, he will expect death at any time.
What is death?
Someone who doesnt know god doesnt know death.
So he is not confident.People who claim to be practical,
Lost souls indeed theatrical.
All your practicalities will seieze to exist,
The moment death you seize to resist.
One must die to be one with God. they are clubbed one cannot be without the other
I agree everyone has his or her own right to think how they want.I cannot force anyone to believe god exists .I share my story ,thats my job not how someone else takes it ,thats his perogative.
It certainly is interesting how many of you base your belief on the fact that it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist when the proof is all around.
Stalemate lol
Thank you
No worries - and welcome
...peace to all ...and to all...thank you...
Amen
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