What did Jesus mean, when he said this to the woman he rescued from being stoned, and to the lame man he had commanded to walk?
Sin the act and the word; is not what people have turned it into. Sin implies the ability of humans to place themselves in front of God, seperate inside themselves from God, reason without him, think without him. in short--leave or seperate from him. And in the worst of human form, claim his power as in the self.
He was asking her to go ( meaning live) and not seperate from him again. He was offering her life "with" him. It's interesting for me to read these words here, because I have thought about those words lately a lot. I think There was much intended in those few words he spoke to her. A real clue to our purpose in life!
I read this that you wrote here and I think also about Romans (From Faith unto Faith) The walk we take in Life, with or without Him.
Very Interesting Question you pose here. Well said.
Absolutely, I agree with your concept of sin being that which distances us from God.
Someone else pointed out that these verses were not part of the original manuscripts... and my own research confirms this... yet it is still interesting to contemplate. With what you say, I can see how the phrase can be interpreted as something like, "Go walk with God" as opposed to "separately from Him."
Thank you for your reply, I've enjoyed it!
This was Jesus issuing that personal challenge to the woman and the man, to go and change their own lives by following Him, to be "born again".
He had already challenged the woman's accusers, and they were shamed, but they didn't stick around long enough to get forgiveness! The woman did, and so she took the opportunity to be redeemed. She could have used her accusers as an excuse for herself to not be saved; (she could've said hey look they're just as bad as I am), but she focused on her own sin and Jesus forgave her.
Same with the lame man at the pool of Bethesda. He used the excuse that others cut in front of him and prevented him from entering the pool. But Jesus asked him "Wilt thou be made whole?"
How much does a person want to be saved? That has a lot to do with whether we ARE saved or not. And we cannot justify lack of desire to be saved, by saying others prevented us.
maybe she should walk it off, being stoned and all
sorry, never read the bible, but need some fun
and a huge welcome!
the story listed in the Gospel of John about the woman being stoned was added to biblical texts much later than the original scriptures and should not be taken as Jesus' actual words. as for the other reference, please cite the book and verse... i don't recall Jesus telling anybody but the Pharisees and Scribes that they were the true sinners. remember, Jesus was with publicans and lawyers and fisherman and not with the prevailing "moral" majority of his time. i believe that if Jesus did say those words it was not out of judgment but as a cautionary to people living in an unjust system that would stone somebody for adultery.
The man at the pool of Bethesda.. comes bouncing off my head, this man was so focused on his pitiable state and how others did not help him, and did try to get even one inch near the pool in 38 years..
When Jesus healed him he said tell no one , and after he told the pharisees about jesus the bible say Jesus told him sin no more.... for a thing much greater might come to you... just paraphrasing from memory
grumbling so much that even when help is offered he was thinking of how others did not help him
Did exactly what he was commanded not to do... to escape , save skin
His mind was not renewed while he waited for his miracle nor afterward... even then there is no mention of gratitude...
I think thats the biggest sin an renewed mind!
Most people think they know God without abiding in his Word...
What the scripture says, is that yes, the man was a grumbler... he even grumbled when Jesus asked him if he wanted to be healed... Jesus then, instead of telling him that he was healed, told him to pick up his couch/mat and walk. Later, when the man got in trouble for carrying his mat on the sabbath, he wanted to blame Jesus for telling him to do so, but couldn't, because he had neglected to get his name. After this, Jesus found him, and *then* at that time told him he was made whole... and told him to go and sin more, lest something worse happens to him.
The man's true illness, was failing to take responsibility for anything... which he was forced to do when he could not name someone to blame... and *then* he was healed.
It's actually an awesome story, but the thing I'm seeking an explanation of rt now, is the part where Jesus said, "sin no more." What do Christians understand this to mean? Do they believe that Jesus actually expected this man to never commit another sin again?
As I write this... I just had an epiphany... "sin no more, lest something worse happens to you..." Jesus was making a verbal affirmation... that this man had learned his lesson... that avoiding responsibility is a sin (it misses the mark... the target of righteousness, wherein God's blessings dwell)... and that sin has negative consequences... so he better knock it off before even more bad stuff happens to him.
Still... it leaves open the question... why would Jesus instruct someone to sin no more, if people are no longer under the consequences of the law, but are instead saved by grace?
Your holy bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God yet Jesus words to the Pharisees are "Ye are gods!" Do you believe that the divine spark in any creation of what you think of as God can ever be extinguished or that a God of love who sends Divine Saviors like Jesus and Krishna and Buddha wants anything less than happiness and transcendence for those that were brave enough to manifest themselves in this world of contradiction and illusion?
I have a different interpretation of the whole original sin thing, HM... the word sin, originates from the khet which is literally "separation from God" and means: sin (distance from God), life (individuality from God), and free-will (independent of God).
I believe that the divine spark (and I DO believe in it), IS within us, and it can NEVER be distinguished... and I believe that God is good and wants nothing but good for us.
See what you can make different about this lot with interpretation.
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshipped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behaviour, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
on that last bit, Jesus asked if man was made for the Sabbath or Sabbath for man... the essence of the gospels is forgiveness and realization of the God Nature of all humans. it is the Paulist books that hark back to the OT and condemn humans for the very nature that the c=creator bestowed upon them. i have no prblem with the teachings of Jesus but with the perversion of his message of LOVE and FORGIVENESS by those that followed in his name. we should not blame the Christ Consciousness of any Savior Being for what his followers do subsequently to exert control over their followers. those who have discernment can clearly see that there is division even within the New Testament between Christ's message and the messages of his followers. Jesus is not alone in this regard. we can see it in other examples of Christ Consciousness as in Buddhism. Govinda taught a path to enlightenment which few could fathom so subsequent teachings diluted his teachings and offered Buddha as a Savior for those that could not walk his path. it has been so with every manifestation of the Christ Consciousness. Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen, and what i feel he meant is that few among us can walk the path of Christ Consciousness in a world of illusion clouded by fear and judgment. the path of Ascension toward Christ Consciousness is one of SURRENDER. the biggest ILLUSION is that we are nothing more than our senses can perceive. SCIENCE itself states that there is more to the WORLD AS IT IS than our 5 senses can perceive and the majority of humanity is deluded into thinking that there is nothing more to REALITY than our 5 senses. thus they feel the need to surrender to a force outside themselves when every Christ Consciousness that has come to humanity has taught that the solution to SALVATION is to be found within. pervert the teachings how they may, those that would exercise control with FEAR and JUDGMENT cannot control the spirit of those who have looked within and found their DIVINE spark through direct experience into their own God Nature beyond their 5 senses. the mass of humanity is bound into the cycle of birth/death and rebirth by refusing to look inward beyond the phenomenal world and will continue to look for SAVIORS outside themselves to extricate them from their pathetic spiritual circumstances.
I agree with much of this as far as it goes, people mould words and meanings to suit their agenda, and very few here seem to know very much about the distortions as they seem to take their beliefs from telly evangelists!
What I no longer buy, is that there is an external god. It really is as simple as no evidence, especially for prayer and intervention. Most arguments here for a deity are circular logic at an infantile level.There is no evidence for a god or prayers being answered ever.
I prefer empirical evidence and real events as they are what allows me a modicum of access to my sub-conscious motives and drives. It hurts to learn about yourself, and it takes many years of real self examination to discover the self and all that entails. When we have real fear, it is of self. I fear the gods within, they are as much a part of me as my body and of my making symbolically if not archetypically.
To give an example of religious belief you only need to view those screaming for the blood of the criminal. Pure self hate projected.
I know who the murderer is, ............... it is me.
Armed with the capacity to see my dark side, I do not unconsciously act it out like those who want others punished.
This enables me to feel safe in the knowledge that consciousness of my dark side prevents me from "sinning" in as much as I do not project my murderer on to others, nor am I at risk of being a murderer because I am conscious of my capacity to murder.
I hope that makes some sense. Brain is tired and my body is infected with a virus so I realise it may be a bit tatty.
Much of the psychological field works with the premise of religiosity as I do. I have good reason to believe through psychology that religion is a mind state, and the misunderstanding of religionists as to where that miraculous feeling they claim to have comes from is caused by having no connection with self.
Conscious motives are not worth a pinch of goat s*it, to be sane we need to know what thoughts and processes are going on "under the hood" in the part of our mind that is the true self.
"god" is a misunderstanding of self.
And as for miracles, I make them everyday! MAny people can do this, no god needed. MY adopted son who is another race and from a very different place has this same ability and we can prove it. Prayers answered? All the time, we just don't pray, we do stuff.
I could and knowing me probably will give examples of what religionists would call miracles, to me they are the laws of life.
Re: There is no evidence for a god or prayers being answered ever.
God doesn't "answer" prayers. I don't understand why Christians pray to God every day for stuff when Jesus himself said that we are not to ask God for anything. Prayer should instead be about contemplation and meditation for insight and knowledge about what God has "already" laid out for us in life.
Re: "god" is a misunderstanding of self.
In the gospel of Thomas, we are told that Jesus said that we must know ourselves... because "we" are our own poverty. When things are not going well, it is because of things that we ourselves are doing... we are the ones who rob ourselves of joy and blessings.
Amen to our being the creator of miracles. God is indeed "internal" and works through us... our own inaction is what paralyzes God's miracles.
Regarding "Infidels and Gays Should Die..." I enjoy delving into the ancient languages, but refuse to even consider the book of Romans. It wasn't written by Paul, it was composed by the Roman Catholic Church.
Regarding Numbers 1:48-51... firstly, realize that none of the books attributed to Moses was actually written by him. They were canonized from a collection of diaries collected through generations. At any rate... the census it speaks of was a war draft. The Levites were excluded from the draft because they were set apart for God's purposes... this tells us that war is not Godly. The only time they were to draw a sword, was against (not "anyone" but) "strangers" who approached the tabernacle, which they were charged to protect.
Regarding Exodus 31:12-15... anyone who fails to rest on the sabbath is "fated to death." Therefore, get all your work done in six days so you can rest on the seventh day, or you'll be working yourself to death!
Thank you for the challenge Earnest! I was about to go to bed, but just couldn't resist!
Good work! I have seen some of this before, but as there are literally hundreds of these threats I could keep you rather busy!
So you do not accept all of the bible as "the word?"
Thank you for the compliment! lol
Pretty much, almost anywhere in the OT where you see "shall surely be put to death" or the like, it should actually be literally translated as "fated to death." The inaccurate translation comes from the false mentality that God controls everything that happens... as if there is no such thing as free will... this is a way of thinking that Jesus tried to correct (as we see in the book of James).
Absolutely, I do not accept the whole bible as the word of God... and even parts of it that I do see as inspired by God, I recognize that the inspiration received can be tainted by the perspectives of whomever has received it... and of whomever it was passed on to... and translated by, etc. etc. None of it is "unadulterated."
Thank you. I do not accept any of it as the inspired word of a god, but you are the first religious person in 2 years to answer a question without posting scripture!
I am impressed.
Rest assured that I am well pleased with your response, and although we disagree, I prefer this exchange to all the others I have had here with those of opposing views.
I have also enjoyed this exchange!
And actually... I think you are more in tune with "the word" than you think... because I noticed straight away that you were quoting passages in their entire context and not just "pieces" of a larger picture.
I have a bit of "form" As a younger man I was a born again christian who was so enthralled by it, I studied the bible for 2 years in 3 languages, and studied myself right out the other end of it.
I am a prolific reader, from workshop manuals to Carl Jung. Religion also formed part of my Jungian studies as did Greek mythology.
I see archetypes and brain function where some people see gods.
God exists in "all" theology that is delicious to the soul and turns people toward paths of righteousness. The bible tells me so.
The bible tells people whatever their subconscious dictates too.
It is the ultimate lie.
I agree it is subject to interpretation, and personal perspective. I don't think it makes it a lie... but it does make it "relative" truth. The lie is in believing that it is "absolute."
My point here is that the bible itself tells us that God's breath exists in all theology that restores the soul *and* helps people live in goodness... even stuff outside of the bible... like Jungian studies.
No god required Deaconess, just understanding of the need for one.
"God" itself is relative. I acknowledge that.
Relative is such a relative word, I'm none too bright this morning, can you explain further?
lol Earnest, I like conversing w/ you. You're the kind of person I like to party with.
Go and sin no more!
My question is; did the Christian stop sinning?
Go and sin no more... what did Jesus mean?
Gosh, what could that possibly mean? Duh... why does it always have to get so complicated? It seems pretty simple and straightforward to me. How about... Stop doing the things that hurt yourself and others... Could that possibly be it?
It would appear to be that simple... yet does Christian doctrine not teach people that human beings are incapable of refraining from sin? That they are born bad, will always be bad, are rotten to the core, and that this is why they need the gift of god's grace to get into heaven? And does their religion not teach people that they no longer have to try to be free from sin... that they no longer need to try to abide by God's laws, which is an impossible burden that they are released from and are now covered in grace (a free ticket into heaven gained not by what they do, but what they believe)? And if all of this is true, then does Jesus saying that we "sin no more" not contradict their belief system? How do Christian's deal with this contradiction? Do they contemplate the reality of the scripture, or has their indoctrination trained them to "tune it out" and instead attribute it to the devil quoting scripture to test their faith?
I think that it is something like this.. Kinda ??
If your child stole all of your money and ran away, far, far away.. And some time later they called you and said "I'm sorry" I'm broke and hungry, can you come get me?
You might say, Yes you can come home, BUT head out now, come as far as you can, then I will come the rest of the way to get you.
You will give him every benefit of the doubt that he has done the best that he could, then you go the rest of the way or him.
by maestrowhit 12 years ago
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Do you believe that the concepts of SIN and EVIL are a man-made religious concepts used asa guilt inducing means to control the masses and making them subservient to a religious authority? Or do you strongly believe that sin and evil exist in ACTUALITY and REALITY?
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