If God knows everything, and we're all part of his 'divine plan', aren't atheists a part of his will? And as suchs shouldn't atheist continue to be atheists? Because doing otherwise would be trying to interfere with his plan.
Please if you're going to quote the bible, just type it down to let it out of your system and close the window instead of hitting submit.
Hi and Welcome to HubPages
By now you are certainly aware of the volatile religion forums and the numerous hubbers representing just about every possible belief or nobelief. Most threads end up being wars in themselves.
To answer your post,I think each of us has a right to believe or disbelieve what we want. That each of us is on a path or a journey of our own, thus we are all right where we are supposed to be. Personally I believe in christianity but have friends - good friends - of many other beliefs.
Good luck on Hubpages, Holly
How far does that right go though? What if your belief includes believing that other beliefs should be punshied? (as in fact lot of religions actually say that, but only the fanatics seem to follow that part).
Double thanks for the welcome and not quoting the bible
I think it is up to each of us to allow. Christianity as I understand it is not to punish other faiths, and I cannot speak for other faiths. If I recall...Vengence is mine says the Lord. It is clearly something not for mere mortals to decide.
PS There are fanatics and extremists in every faith and they all make me nervous.
By this reasoning...we should allow rapists, murderers etc.
infact religion and political ideology has caused most murders..
Is that so...hmmm, and here I thought it was greed, lust, control, power and immorality. That's only in my world.
well most murders have been done by political ideologies and religious ideology..history is full of that..and you are right greed ,lust,control,power fits religion and politics well...immorality fits religion not politics..so religion has one more reason than politics for murder...so you are bang on...
Murder is committed by folk who have no morality, either temporarily or permanent.
Christianity has the capacity to deter murderers, we know that it means loss of everything you sought to gain.
The secular world has no such constraints.
christianity has caused more murders than islam , my friend...islam didnt go for cursader...christianity did..so dont say that religion is solution...religion is solution as long as people dont take it reason for existence...once that switch gets on....it results in close minded entity which can go to any extent...ofcourse that applies to any person who becomes extremely obsessed with anything but with religion it is mass...
Actually I think it would be hard to gauge which religion was worse in the olden days, and I admit freely that the Crusades were the Roman Catholic Churches darkest hours, proving incontrovertibly that during that period, the Roman Catholic Church was definitely NOT a Christian organisation, for Christ NEVER asked or authorised any believer to kill in His name.
As for Islam, I would wonder if you added all those killed in it's name over the centuries, that you may find they were the winner.
But hands down for numerical supremacy, you must put Stalin and Mao as the outright winners for sheer enthusiasm in killing any dissenter to their cause, so secular humanity wins in the end result.
secular humanity wins in the end result...right..quiet right...
You mean a cause whereupon if you don't join them you die horribly?
Here's a similar cause:
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire"
"The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT."
Christians should. Some people murder and commit violent acts against their will. Some people are sick and have no control over their actions. If it's not our place to interfere with god's plan, then they should be free of human punishment and/or prevention. Furthermore, there have already been countless murders and tortures not only allowed, but perpetrated by the church (burning witches, the inquisition, the burning of Giordano Bruno for stating the Sun was one more star among others)
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
well what did you want an atheists reply?
The above is god divine plan.
God is trying to get as many souls as possible, in the meantime, those sandpaper atheists will rub some rough edges off of me.
So it's impossible to be a christian and not quote the bible... right... either that, or you're incapable of writing your own thoughts, or you haven't explored them yet.
You might want to rephrase that though: "as many souls as possible". If you have the power to do anything, what is or isn't possible stops being an issue.
It's called regurgitation - nothing needs to pass the brain on the way out
would you prefer something from confuscious? He can't save your soul
how about jung? nope, sorry, he can't either.
how about freud? nope, not quite good enough either.
This is Gods thoughts.
paraphrased for you:
You were not born atheist, you chose to be, somewhere along your lifepath. The scenario is this: a result from adam and eve having babies who had babies, who had babies, (outside of the garden) who had babies, and they had babies, who had babies, whom also had babies and whose babies had babies (all outside of the garden) and eventually those babies had YOU. Now you are not in a punished state but rather a in a state of result, (the result of babies having babies who had.... yknow) Now in this position you have free will, you can choose what you want to do and believe and you can be in control of your own destination (not destiny but more arrival point after the facts) Somewhere along the lifepath someone will mention jesus to you (JESUS - like that maybe) and you will make a choice of listening or not, accepting or not and therefore you will either be a believer or a non-believer. Because of the new covenant with JESUS being the last sacrifice for the abolishment of sins effects on a Believer, which is called the dispensation of his Grace and Love, (much like the love that brought a captive people out of bondage and slavery in egypt, when no one asked him too) you will not be smitten, all smiting comes at the end of "all things" or "judgment day" which will be more than a day lol. So as a non-believer you will carry on through out your life, someone else may come along and say JESUS to you again and if you choose not to believe you will die an atheist or whatever you want to call yourself. However, that you would die an unbelieving atheist is not Gods will. OBVIOUSLY if you care to think about it.
There is one fundamental flaw in your argument regardless of the bible being right and wrong and all that, and that is assuming that it is my choice not to believe.
First of all, everyone's born an atheist. You have no knowledge or beliefs when you're born. Other people might think of you as a member of certain religion from the day you were concieved, but yourself as a being hold no belief nor religion.
Secondly: there is no choice. Really, there isn't. This is easily demonstrated: can you choose and force yourself into believing in Santa Claus again? Can you start out of your own free will to believe Icke's theories about lizard aliens? Or can you decide that you want to join the Flat Earth Society and start sharing their beliefs? No, right? Well, did you even choose at all not to believe in them? No, it is a desicion beyond your ego.
Have you stopped for a moment and considered that how ridiculous those ideas sound to you, is the same way an atheist feels about the bible? If so, as hard as it would be for you to honestly, seriously believe we're surrounded by lizards disguised as humans, could you expect anyone who holds your particular view of the world as nonsense to simply "listen" and choose to believe in it? And do you think it's fair to judge anyone if they don't?
And yes, I'll take Confuscious, Jung and Freud over the bible any day, but I want answers from none of them with this topic. And as lenghty as your post is, it doesn't really answer my question.
I don't agree with your above notion; since the human life began; man believed in the Creator-God Allah YHWH; it is the Atheists Agnostics Humanists who mislead the new borns to doubts.
I wasn't born christian - I was indoctrinated with that belief system - messed with my brain, it did
okay, then.. "if God knitted me together in the womb", how do you explain birth defects? Science explains birth defects very well. Was God not looking out for those babies?
You just would not understand the explanation.
That's a great excuse not to answer. Stop assuming what he wouldn't do and give a proper answer. Even if he wouldn't understand, that doesn't mean everyone else who's reading this won't either.
I get a few minutes here and there to reply to things, to reply to that would mean me investing an hours work, and for what, so somebody could make an inane remark and ignore what I explained?
To ask such a question is just sniping, and if I thought there was a genuine desire, I would invest the time, indeed, I would write it as a hub, and maybe I will, but thank you, I do not jump through hoops for cynical atheists who mainly just wish to goad believers.
Maybe the answer sounds superstitious - demons etc. Or god is sending punishment?
I read a great analogy yesterday by Derek Prince, who studied the bible for over 40 years and reached many deep conclusions.
He was writing regarding the 'man who bought the field'.... now it's actually relevant that I quote the scripture involved, so sorry OP! (But not much, just two lines!)
Matthew 13:44 (Amplified Bible)
The kingdom of heaven is like something precious buried in a field, which a man found and hid again; then in his joy he goes and sells all he has and buys that field.
The analogy was that Christ was 'the man' who found the treasure, and that His church is the treasure.
The 'sells all he has and buys that field.' refers to the crucifixion, and that then Christ appoints His new found 'treasure' to search (dig out) the remaining treasure in the field. (preach the gospel to all the world)
So in this ananlogy, we can see that although there was treasure in the field, there was also a whole lot of field stuff that was not recognisable (to Christ) as treasure.
Back to the OP topic.
Yes, God created atheists just as He created everything else for a purpose, having been an atheist until my forty second year, I can understand that NOW.
In my atheist years I also asked innumerable questions seeking to define life and any reason for it, other than my self development... in the end I came to faith, not by choice so much as by necessity, i.e. my wanderings had gotten me involved in spiritual matters of a dark nature, so I defected rather than converted.
The (sad) fact remains that God has chosen to hold some folk as treasure, and seemingly others as not treasure, which obviously angers greatly those who feel they have been overlooked.
I do not understand why this is, except possibly that God knows our hearts, and knows who is in terminal rebellion to Him, and who will repent and turn to Him..... before we do.
After all an omnipresent God can see the end and the beginning at the same time, He knows the time of your birth, and death, and what you will decide between both those points.
So, your god knows when the starving will die and knows they are praying for a morsel of food? He does not hold them as treasure? He holds you as treasure?
It's little wonder the starving are angry at your god, even though they themselves are Christians.
Another sniper who failed or chose not to read the second paragraph.
As I said the last time you attempted to use this ruse, you have been answered countless times about your pet obsession... using disassociated factors to try to discredit God.
Look in the mirror if you wish to see the problem with some clarity.
I am British, I have British on my passport, yet I have had no association with Britain for 26 years, and the UK government have decided that I have 'abandoned' my country, and as such would not assist me if I needed assistance.
Nobody is born a Christian, for God has no grandchildren, and each individual must surrender their rebellion individually, so please don't try to pull "they themselves are Christians" into the discussion, for neither you nor I have any idea who belongs to God and who, in the end result, will not.
Only God knows who are His 'treasures' and who are, by their own decisions or lack of the same, are not.
But there is still time for you to surrender your rebellion, if you wished to do so.
Are you talking about all the contradictions believers have provided in order to explain a contradiction?
I need only to look at religion to see the problem.
Oh, I see, you are the arbiter of who is Christian and who is not?
Yes, I know, and according to you, the starving are not gods treasures, but you are.
There's still time to be honest, too, if you wished to be so.
Come on Beelzedad, you can do better than this, you contradicted yourself and generally must be tired, I am used to much better trollism than this from you.
I see Christianity doesn't teach you respect.
Indeed Christianity does teach respect for others, however respect needs to be earned by a practical display of wisdom, charity, love and discernment, things which you appear to be lacking.
Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
When you are due respect, I will give it, for now you are nothing but an annoying man who bleats the same lame jibes no matter what the subject.
It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.
Would this be another example of your god's wisdom from the "good book?"
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
Oh that's right! His son came along and made all his fathers hate better in the watered down bits.
So, Christians get their prayers answered when it suits there fancy, like sending their kids to Disneyland and other such trivialities. Yet, other Christians are ignored by your god, must suffer and die an agonizing death from starvation while someones kids get to ride the Mickey Mouse merry-go-round, all because your god answered their prayers?
And, I contradicted myself?
So now you don't understand prayer?
first off, God answers prayer when it suits Gods design, he is not very fanciful, if you think for a moment you may recall.
Kids who get to go to disneyland probably have a disneyland nearby thus making the trip at least reasonable, of course i have yet to come into contact with a Believer who actually prays to go to disneyland, but whatever. In North America we have a comfy lifestyle that allows for trivialities, even if we are Believers, but, perhaps some little child did pray that, bless the little children, so God does.
Most Believers pray for other stuff, like helping people in flood situations, policemen be safe while working a dangerous job, somebodies cancer. More lives be saved, hubbers smarten up, etc... good solid reasons you can't debunk with your made up scenarios.
Although it is true that in China, for running a home church the pastor and congregation can be jailed for doing so, i assume this might be the suffering you are talking about because in North America we have it pretty good -so far. We are talking about christianS, plural, right, not the unsaved which aquasilver smited you with in his last response; a mortal wound to your self proclaimed brilliance, indeed. +passes you a tourniquet. So while the christian is in jail suffering horribly, (God has covered this already by saying that blessed are they when they arrive in his kingdom and the blood of the saints martyred are under his throne ready unto the day of gods people) anyway... since God has their backs, it is a shame that Gods smiting days are over because the Chinese just, by now, may have been smitten off the map... things are never around when you need them huh, and we would have to produce stuff in our own countries, encouraging jobs.. but i digress... In the land of la de da a christian family, including children are going to disneyland because little timmy thought it a good idea to pray for such a cause.
Really, beezlebub.. the door is over there, close it behind you. When you try to think you are funny stuff too.
but i love ya, ya upright monkey
George Carlin made a brilliant argument abour prayers and I think it's not only hilarious, it's very true, around 4:40: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmr … re=related
Funny.... he died!
On June 22, 2008, Carlin was admitted to Saint John's Health Center in Santa Monica, California, after experiencing chest pains. He died later that day at 5:55 p.m. of heart failure.
God will not be mocked, but George, you got what you prayed for.
Good humor if you ignore his mislead analogies, but hey, it got a laugh and he entertained the audience, who are possibly all dead now as well!
Laugh while you may and pray that God shares your sense of humor.
Sorry, are you stating that the fact that George Carlin was not immortal is in itself an argument? You've said nothing of value.
No, I'm stating that an apparently healthy man, very vibrant and active on stage, died from heart failure about one year after he dared God to strike him down.
Hopefully in the interim he (Carling) had the opportunity to rekindle his relationship with Christ.
We are all mortal, but at the same time we have the offer of eternal life available to us.
He is not the first person I have seen die quickly once they have cursed themselves by their rebellion, and shown that they are 100% in denial about Gods power.
In another sketch he ridicules 'save the planet' and makes many valid points, including identifying a 'higher power' that controls earth, but fails to accept that the 'higher power' is actually the highest power.
He just got it wrong, which is a shame as he was a funny guy.
Hope he is still laughing!
A man dies a year after he told god to smite him... so if someone else does it and outlives you then it means that god likes the rebellious one better?
Well this proves a very evident feature in your way of seeing things: you assume too much. You've just made two huge asumptions, with no basis whatsoever:
1. An apparently healthy man. Even Dr. John Bell (the man that inspired the character of Sherlock Holmes) would have a hard time diagnosing his health based solely on a YouTube video of a stand up act.
2. What on Earth has led you to believe with such conviction as to state it publicly in this forums, that the one in the video was the first time he ever made that joke?
Let's be thankful to god that he took nine (not one) years to "strike him down", to reduce the dramatic effect and leave room for doubt
Btw, evolution doesn't claim we come from monkeys, you might want to check on that.
All religions not officaly designated as sanctioned by the State are outlawed in China.
Yes, his designs lay dead, by the tens of thousands daily.
That is exactly what a believer stated here on these forums, that they prayed for their daughter to go to Disneyland and the prayer was answered.
Oh, I see, starving children is a made up scenario.
Yes, it appears god answers the prayers of North American Christians and ignores much of the rest of the world.
Yes, I'm sure you'd love to see them wiped out.
Keep the insults flying, it's the only thing you're good at doing.
so God decided I was worthless, if he didn't hold me as treasure?
Nope, God does not make bad stuff, and He considers you a pearl of great value, He even died to save you, it's you that are in rebellion against God, and in that instance, you have declared yourself worth less to God, as you will not allow Him to fulfil His plan for your life.
In that instance, respecting your free will, He has to let you determine your own fate.
It hurts Him to see what we do when we try to run things ourself, but it's your choice and you have, to date obviously decided on rebellion against God.
You can change your mind any time you wish to be Gods treasure.
It's not God that made you worth less, it's your actions.
aqua wrote "The (sad) fact remains that God has chosen to hold some folk as treasure, and seemingly others as not treasure, which obviously angers greatly those who feel they have been overlooked.
I do not understand why this is, except possibly that God knows our hearts, and knows who is in terminal rebellion to Him, and who will repent and turn to Him, before we do."
So this is why you are so much better off than I am aqua?
I was wondering about your superiority and where you got it from!
re read the last para Earnest;
"....possibly that God knows our hearts, and knows who is in terminal rebellion to Him, and who will repent and turn to Him"
You seem to have had what I would refer to an 'inoculation' against Christ when you had your brief encounter twenty years ago!
You were 'in faith' before I came to faith, and I was an atheist before you lost your faith, but I've kept my faith, and I'm not in rebellion against God, so maybe that's why?
But I do understand your anger.
Your anger, no matter how disguised, shows clearly in your words!
Really? Or is anything that disagrees with your particular god "angry"
I guess you have a good point there, for if God is God, then anyone in opposition to Him would be angry that He will not obey their will and give them a free pass on THEIR terms, not His.
So god has terms. Sounds like a used car salesman!
Once again you chose to switch positions with God!
No, I know exactly what your god is like. He wrote about himself through "the word" remember?
According to your "good book" he threatened like a spoilt 3 year old would, he punished like hitler's SS would, he allowed women to be treated like cattle and he lied like a toad about prayers being answered. Like I said......
Your experience is seemingly based upon a short encounter with some religious charlatan 20 years ago.
Who obviously got you stuck in the OT sections, failing to introduce you to Christ in the NT.
Your hatred is so very sad.
husbands love your wives and wives obey your husbands is not cattle. If you choose to interpret it that way, you need to research more and align yourself to the truth and stop leaning on lies and false doctrine.
The NT reflects the OT perfectly, in ways you will never know now because you have need of milk and not meat, you need to suckle and cannot dine on your own. A babe indeed.
You may want to interpret women as cattle and i am sure you can grab a few paragraphs out of context and rant some more as you are accustomed to do and maybe throw in a few insults to our all powerful fairy who shall eat you as dust, but i digress, and good luck with that...But rest assured, as i am sure many do whenever you come up with or back with, will be wildly overrated, completely exaggerated and never exonerated.
Your hatred is so very sad.
God keeps you in a room all the time. I guess you may want to thank him for the grandkids comin over to relieve you of your hubpages ministry of doom and gloom.
no its YOUR anger. YOU own it or does it OWN you.
don't you enjoy it?
powerless to change it?
Let christ give you a new lease on life
thats what the cross is for
but you would have missed that being stuck in OT
the cross, truly, ROCKS!!!
Ever noticed how atheists quote the bible more than christians do. You just know they have it sitting right there by them while they are on the computer, so they can use it as a weapon whenever they get the chance.
4 posts with bible quotes on this thread, only 1 of them is from an atheist.
4 posts with scriptures, one from a non believer (no such thing as an atheist.)
This becomes a whole new way of collecting statistics in the hands of a religionist. The truth is always the first casualty.
I am working today and so just popping in and out - I notice that the current fundy's on a mission are not too bright and almost no fun at all. Makes me quite miss the good old days of last month when a thread could really wind up. !!
True the fundies are still crazy, but less fun than a couple of the other fundies we had a while back.
Yeah - we seem to have acquired some Forest Gump clones from somewhere. I wonder why the Pope never comes down here, or at least a cardinal
By definition, nonbeliever is a synonym for atheist to me.
Atheism is non-sensical; reason and wisdom does not support it, in my opinion.
quiet right...one needs to be super intelligent to be religious...atheist lack reasoning ability and wisdom...
Thanks for admitting it; everybody to please note it for future reference
i wish my statements were true paar..i truly do..world would have been heaven if my words were true...but intelligence has nothing to do with being religious or non religious...humans in all category have intelligence and lack of it too...world's best brain in last 100 years was non religious but at same time world's another one of best brain was religious..so there is not way to know about intelligence of believer or non believer...what makes simple logical sense to one ,doesnot make sense to other and vice versa...for e.g. u cant see logic in atheism and i cant see logic in religion accept its contribution is directing human race...books doesnot make sense to me for very simple reasons...but my reasons wont appeal to u and yours dont appeal to me...
Check your OT.
and further, by the J man himself, I will paraphrase, 'obey the law. As it says in the book.'
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