Pagan origins of christianity

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Baileybearposted 14 years ago
I have read that symbols & beliefs of christianity are adopted from pagan beliefs. What do you know about this?
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely true, when Constantine 'adopted' Christianity, he in fact formed Churchianity in that he made it the 'official' religion, and in order to facilitate all the pagan religions that Rome sanctioned, he 'incorporated' elements into the new religion he founded, hence we 'gained' and altar, where none was required (Christ had been the ultimate sacrifice, no other was needed) and we changed the worship day from the Sabbath to Sun Day, the festival of Saturnalia became Christ Mass, Easter replaced Passover remembrance and many other changes that took the Christ out of Christianity and put the emphasis on Churchianity.
  
  But throughout all this and despite the persecution, God has always retained a remnant of true believers who live by the words of Christ.
  
  Churchianity has expanded over the last 2000 years, but Christ remains pure and innocent, yes He is abused by Churchianity, but never the less, God has used Churchianity to hide His remnant amongst all this time.
  
  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Constantine's mother was Pagan, and he incorporated some of her belief from his up-bringing. He was a mix of Belief questioning a war like mentality after his victory, because he loved his military hand servant, who was just a boy, and Constantine saw him get killed. It was said he saw himself as a child past in the boy.
  
  After that battle, one night he supposedly had a dream, and a messenger from God. He saw all the suffering and killing for some reason in a different light after his victory. He was still trying grappling with the idea to sub-due the Persians after conquering them, while appeasing some of the Roman Senate at the same time.
  
  The Altar, was a supposed vision from his Mother in a so called dream, but in truth it was from a discussion he had with her as a child, watching her.
  
  There was a lot in his background that made up his outlook. He made Christianity the official religion, but his real reason to Build the Church on top of the Temple was to let the enemy know they had been defeated, to send a world message.
  
  All the stuff about Christ-Mass, days of worship etc was added some time later, by the Pope, although he, Constantine, is given partial credit for it, he is not the main reason it happened.
  
  He was also not held in high esteem by Christian Romans who were a growing sect in Rome at the time.
  
  The Pope's to follow are the one's who adopted a lot of Pagan worship, their holidays and such and changed them, to try and appease folks and convert them to Catholicism. When that did not work they sent out the Crusaders to make them kneel!
  
  Zoarastorism is a mix of Egyptology and Hebrew practice, a hang over from the Hebrews time in Egypt. Not anything to do with Constantine I believe.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  aquasilver wrote:
  
  "(Christ had been the ultimate sacrifice, no other was needed)"
  
  There was no sacrifice much less any 'ultimate' one. At best, there was minor inconvenience.
  
  "Christ out of Christianity and put the emphasis on Churchianity."
  
  Churchianity is a great part of the Xian god. The god of $$$$$.
  
  "But throughout all this and despite the persecution, God has always retained a remnant of true believers who live by the words of Christ."
  
  Persecution? Christians run the USA! Each and every Xian considers him/herself a TRUE Xian. Since Christ 'spoke out of both sides of his mouth' and was a rampant hypocrite and Commandment breaker existing by the drooling idiocies is easy.
  
  Yes, 'God' hasn't been seen in two millennia, fancy that. He's doing a triple eternity sentence in the Justice League's[tm] Phantom Zone[tm].
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  xobliamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Churchianity...that's interesting.
  
  The book of revelation begins with the message of John to the seven churches.
  
  Being a member of any of the seven churches in that age would have likely been similar to being a member of any contemporary cult. And cults have a way of raising the wrath of secular officials. (ie. WACO....). In that age the official was the Emperor and his soldiers.
  
  Here you would have people trying to live an ascetic christ driven lifestyle in a pagan world.
  
  A few hundred years pass and suddenly Constantine comes along and secularizes the churches and in no time every one is dancing to the tune of the Roman Christian movement. That is politico-ecclesiastics at play.
  
  Makes me wonder what the true meaning of church means.
  
  Churchianity...Good one !
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What do we understand from the word pagan exactly?
  
  Anybody please
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All you need to know in a nutshell
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/-I-am-a-Pagan-I-think
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Yep-Im-definately-a-Pagan
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please answer my question here; if you may.
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I really cannot be bothered to re write it all again just for your pleasure, if you are interested go to the Hub and read it for yourself, if not don't bother.
  
  Either way I could care less since debating with you is a complete waste of time, until you can get your head and mind around the concept that Paganism pre dates any and ALL religions and the creation of writing any books.
  
  Pagan superstition created ALL Gods, even yours, so quoting verse written by man centuries later to support your argument is a waste of time and serves only to demonstrate a point in time beyond where your mind cannot or will not go.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Merlin Fraser
  
  I don't agree with you.
  
  It was the Monotheism to start with; when people lost the Word of God revealed; then they went infidel- meaning in their doubts they rejected the central tenets the truthful religion which I think people here denote as paganism. Monotheism is the truthful state and paganism its frustrated state.
  
  You are free to hold any belief; it does not bother me; in fact I like you.
  
  Monotheism is revived by the Messengers Prophets of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; and finally it was revived through Muhammad- the Seal of the Prophets.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it is your right to agree or disagree with me and any of my views and I respect that right.
  
  However as long as you fail to understand that I am talking about the birth of mankind, when he first started walking upright and first started trying to make sense of all the scary things around him.
  
  To anyone who believe those who teach that the planet Earth is only 6,000 years old then such a notion of humanity is way beyond their comprehension.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You want to talk about the pre-historic stage or the historic stage?
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have to be aware of both for any true understanding of how we came to be where we are right now.
  
  If you believe the Biblical version of Creation and the hypothethical mathmatical back calculation of the age of certain Biblical charcters to acertain the Planets age to be only 6,000 years old then any discusion or debate ends here.
  
  If on the other hand you accept the various scientific proofs that the Earth is millions of years old and all life evolved slowly over that time frame. Then you have to recognise the fact that there is a portion of the history of mankind that predates the written word.
  
  Many stories have their origins in fear and superstition and over the centuries most of these stories have distorted into the myths and legends that perculate throughout most civilizations. Most have been dismissed as just that stories.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you got the documented history of the period prior to the Word revealed?
  
  You know it is Bible- misunderstood by the Christians that Adam was the first person created from the mud. Adam was the first human being on whom the Creator-God Allah YHwH conversed with and told him some pro-life ,ethical, moral and spiritual principles; in that sense he was an icon of the first civilization era; not the first person being born.
  
  There were peoples and tribes before Adam and Eve.
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry but I’m afraid to say that is far too trite and convenient an answer in some sort of effort to defend the complete inadequacies of the Bible’s version of creation. Instead of trying to maintain this very nice story and holding it up as truth why can you not simply except it for what it is ? A simple explanation offered to a simple people as an explanation for the complexity of the mysteries of life.
  You ask; “Have you got the documented history of the period prior to the Word revealed?”
  
  Now, considering I said I was talking about a time period in the development of man that pre dates the written word that might be difficult.... I search for the truth in those ancient stories, myths and legends and this is why I am so convinced that it was man who invented the Gods and Demons that plague him.
  
  When I combined this with the ever expanding knowledge of the scientific minds throughout the centuries to the present day a clearer picture emerges. True there is much we still don’t know, and much work still needs to be done. However, the simplest ways to enlightenment is to approach the problem with an open mind to the fact that much we were told and held to be true may not be so.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, it is your conjecture only; you don't have anything solid and documented with you; previously you were very confident.
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, but which part of " A time period that Pre Dates the Written Word can you not understand or comprehend ?"
  
  Even the stories in the Bible were, before someone wrote them down, were simply that verbal stories passed down from generation to generation. As with all stories they depend very much upon the story teller, then as now, there were good story tellers and bad. Over many centuries most of the stories were changed and altered as the story tellers changed, each would add his or her own embellishments.
  
  You challenge my confidence ? Science and history, peels away the layers of time, geologist and archaeologists peel away further layers and we go upon a fabulous journey backwards through time.
  
  This is my road to enlightenment, just because mankind could not write does not mean to say we have no idea how they lived, or where. We know what he hunted where and with what tools. From the stories myths and legends he left behind we know what inspired and frightened him.
  
  It’s like a giant treasure hunt and jig saw puzzle all rolled into one. Without the benefit of a picture to guide us we don’t know where all the pieces are hidden or even if we will ever find them all.
  However, we strive to find them because we are not content to let someone else to tells us;
  If such an explanation as, “Do not challenge the word, It is what is... because it has always been so” satisfies you and other believers, So be it.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Science and history are a joint venture of Believers in revealed religions and those who don't believe in it. Why should you exclude the believers from it? Is it equitable on your part?
  
  Perhaps Science and History would have more progressed if there were no Atheists Skeptics Agnostics. They shun the creative and pro-life activities of mankind and pull them to devolution instead of evolution.
  
  The Atheists have played a very nominal role in the civilization of the human beings.
  
  Name any good rulers in the history of the humankind who were Atheists Skeptics Agnostics and compare them with the big name of that religions have produced; not many names; they only blame the religionists for all their ills and misconceptions.
  
  You or anybody else may differ with me with reasons.
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  swordofgideonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  a wise truth it pleases the master that one has told a truth amen shalom
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  Texasbetaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paganism describes pretty much anything they didn't agree with. However, Zoarastorism is the source of quite a bit of Jewish and thus Christian theology. Egyptology played a significant role, and in fact, you use it every time you pray, ending it with Amen.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes! It originates from Amon, then evolved into Amon-ra then amen.
  
  Amon means the invisible God, the God of everything!
  
  Now... You can go back before ancient egypt... the motherland and the old scriptures - but that is another hub ... hehehe
  
  p.s. I wrote a hub about the green man and the links with Osiris *wink*
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Since the source in the origin is the same Word of Revelation from the Creator-God Allah YHWH; for Zoroaster , Krishna,Buddha, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad; hence the similaritis in these religions.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Said drooling idiocies considered 'revelation' are legion. The Abrahamic ones are 'as a babe at first suck' in comparison the the older ones.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  apparently they considered any form of education/learning (other than bible) to be pagan
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  “Zoarastorism.... Apparently they considered any form of education/learning (other than bible) to be pagan.”
  
  In reality this is where a lot of the misconception in trying to understand and make sense of the various Middle Eastern religious groups came from. They all have Pagan origins, yes...All of them.
  
  Believe it or not the Old Testament part of the Bible is Pagan, it was written by Pagans and tells many of their ancient stories, myths and legends as told by the nomadic peoples of the time around their campfires and at meetings.
  
  The true authors of the Bible took only some of the stories, presumably the ones that fitted their particular agenda at the time, and abandoned others, especially those that contradicted the stories they chose to keep.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How would you describe and identify "pagans"?
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  merlin fraser: I do not consider moses a pagan but i will describe the writing of the book of genesis and how its symbology is completely understandable.
  lets see, moses, put in river adopted by egyptian woman given back to his mom, educated in egypt. Egypt worshiped serpents, sun, moon, nile river, had gods for everything (2000 but 12 or so main ones) Moses wrote genesis for the people of that time to read, so is it surprising that a serpent would be included? as this serpent was familiar to the people who were to read the writings.. i do not think so. The genesis book contains symbolic reference known to the people of the time. This does not exclude the book from being genuine or a true accountability. The fact of its lateness upon the scene was due to gods people being pyramid makers in slavery to egypt and lacked a culture of their own, being saturated with egyptian culture, only after they were freed from slavery and while in the wilderness did moses get time and chance to write about the creation of the world, which of course, if you read it closely is a very convincing documentary. The first chapter being the overview of creation, the second chapter getting into more detail, not only does it not just skim over the creation but it dares to reiterate itself becoming more detailed.
  zoroastrianism: an Iranian religion, founded c600 b.c. by Zoroaster, the principal beliefs of which are in the existence of a supreme deity, Ahura Mazda, and in a cosmic struggle between a spirit of good, Spenta Mainyu, and a spirit of evil, Angra Mainyu. This is why the satan and his fallen angels belief was concocted by the catholic church. Assimilation happens, its a fact. The jewish people after being devastated and exiled would have brought parts of this belief with them when they returned home. The catholic church needed to blend the pagan beliefs at the time with the christianity of jesus to accommodate all people into her hellenized religion. A fact of catholicism using all the books available is displayed in the apocrypha being part of the catholic bible. It was later removed for good reasons.
  hope this helps
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the information however it doesn't help all that much when you consider that today not even the established church and Biblical scholars believe that Moses wrote the opening chapters of the old Testament. In fact outside of the old Testament itself there is little actual proof that Moses even existed.
  
  As for any claim to reality for the Genesis account of the creation of the Earth, the Universe or life, it beggars belief that anyone with even a modicum of education, logic, reason or common sense could possibly still believe such nonsense not alone try to convince anyone that it is fact.
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure who you are talking about when you say "established church" can you put a name to that or did that come out of a hat cuz you thought it handy to say? Scholars, lol.. what is a scholar today compared to centuries ago when there was no hydro, television, diversity of courses and complicated worries of the world. Many scholars are not baptized in the holy ghost and therefore amount to no more than carnal logicers.
  Moses is the absolute perfect candidate for writing thode books, being as God gave him the law and the law is what those books are referred to and that God spoke directly to moses, gave him written 10 commandments and that moses was educated in egypt, he would know how to spell and write, the rest of the people he led out did not.
  As for your hubrious begging of belief statement i will also remind you that God is not interested in how much education a person has, indeed those who claim to possess tremendous logic are stumped by the foolishness of God, reason and common sense are two lesser evils.
  Nonsense is never to be applied to things that the person claiming nonsense, doesn't understand fully. That is nonsense or no sense.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  some think Jesus may have been a sun god & 12 disciples/apostles signs of zodiac - as was practice back then
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He was definitely someone special - a communicator - a master. I try and live by his example, but I guess that was the whole idea for the human race as a whole. Just like Allah, Krishna, Buddha and the many other masters who came to this earth plane to spread the example.... (perhaps?) Whatever, it is a good example to live by, isn't it?
  
  I live in the world's heart chakra - there is evidence to suggest that Christ visited here... The time A.D. actually started when Christ was 5 years old - he is supposed to have visited Glastonbury before he was 5 with Joesph of arithmethea.
  
  Of course, J of A, visited after the crucifixion to spread the word and it is here in Glastonbury, that the land is divided into 13 signs of the zodiac - just like 13 deciples (contraversial - yes - but you can not exclude Judas).
  
  The 13th zodiac sign (as there are 13 luna cycles) is the spider.
  
  Hey, but I shouldnt really share anymore of this, cos I dont like hot kitchens (.. if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen) and religion forums are VERY hot kitchens!
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, Jeebus wasn't anything special much less a master. The character was; a liar, a thief, a sabbath and commandment breaker, prideful, and pig ignorant.
  
  Living down to the fictional example is easy and, imo, nothing to be proud of.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As I said.. I dont like hot kitchens!
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yah well some people serve themselves, lol
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  stoneyy forgot to mention a miracle worker, a reprover of the old systems hypocritical ways, usher in of a new dispensation of God, Son of God, person who claimed love your enemies and God with all your heart, obviously a man approved of by God.
  What stoneyy didnt tell you, you can tell by his other posts.
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They think that because Roman Christians worshiped the Son, and those in the Goverment (who did not understand Christian Belief) thought that those people meant they litteraly worshiped the Sun. But it was the SON of God, not the planet.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  there are many astrological codes in the bible - I have started a thread about it; waiting for comments. The story of jesus describes the path of the sun through the constellations (because back then, they though the earth was fixed in space). Same with the story of the fish swallowing Jonah (which cannot be taken literally either, as how do you get a fish big enough?)
  The sun's not a planet anyway; it's a star
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  None of the tales can be taken literally, but people do because magic comes into play.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  true, people to this day like to believe the hocus pocus and lose sight of the gems of insight on morality and empowerment.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Everyone performs magick - every thought form, every intention....
  
  'something good is going to happen, I dont know when, but just saying it can make it happen'
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Heres how you get a fish big enough
  
  Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had PREPARED a GREAT fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (KJV)
  
  with God all things are possible. God made a fish to do what God wanted done.
  
  Jonah did not die in the special fish that god made
  Jonah 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
  
  Jonah 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
  
  The fish was totally under Gods control.
  happy fishing!
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  if that was true about jesus being a sun god and the disciples being part of the zodiac i think the NT would have been written totally differently with some reference to the sun and the zodiac signs, but seeing as scripture speaks against this kind of worship:
  Deuteronomy 17:3 "And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded".
  The sun god, RA was shown to be of noneffect when the God of the bible was freeing the slaves. God caused a thick darkness for the span of 3 days. Much longer than any eclipse and the sun god was thus revealed as a fraudulent god.
  There is some similarity between sun and son but there are very good reasons for using son in the NT.
  I am sure, unfortunately, your hub about this is on a man made trail. One of the easiest things to do is take something and create something different to it, like some people here on hubpages have done.. oh this means this and that, without proper context, context, context so many false beliefs have sprung up amounting to nothing more that the vain imaginations of sinful humankind. Once again we see the value of trusting in the word of God for the truth and we see why God has left a book - study purposes.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  err...a lot. none of it is original.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  some stuff borrowed from other beliefs
  
  http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1a.htm
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I will like to know first ; how did the paganism originate? Who brought it about? Do they have any sytem to follow?
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shazwellynposted 14 years ago
Religion has evolved and changed over the many years that people have been on this earth. All religions stem from the first original source and there is plenty of evidence that substantiates this hypotheses.

Paganism is just one of a long line of religions that stems from this first source. Take a look on my hub about The Green Man (druidism) and the links to Osiris and Isis - ancient egypt.

I have been meaning to write an article about how religion began and where the source stems from, but havent got around to it.

(damn, I really try to avoid the religion forum, but really couldnt help myself answering this one... people get soooo sensitive here!)
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great idea! I would love to read something like that? My understanding is that religions can be dated back to when early types of shaman held rituals before a major hunt within tribes, as far back as when early man and Neanderthals first started sharing their resources for hunts.
  
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  swordofgideonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the enemy never sleeps neither does the sword of Gideon,the messenger is ever vigilant,the vipers tongue is quick to spew forth poison,his feet fast to shed innocent blood,only a fool has said in his heart their is no god,his name shall be cut off out of the lambs book of life,the pit is his inheritance,the lake of fire his home where Beelzebub,legion,the angel of death,and all the fallen of god are,also the old dragon the father of all lies,Sheol
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Beelzebub isn't all that bad, just a little misunderstood. LOL!
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I too look forward to reading your Hub on where Religion began although I would take exception to your statement that Paganism is just one of a long line of religions.
  
  Paganism is not a religion, I know there are a few groups out there Neo whatever’s that like to claim that it is but the truth is that it is not a religion and never was.
  
  If like me you try to piece together man's early history it is possible to see where out of his naked fear there was a need for some sort of logical reason to explain the violence of nature that surrounded them.
  
  If you create Gods as part of this explanation it is fairly obvious that you are also going to acquire people who will claim that they can speak to those Gods. They may in turn been good people at heart and had the best interests of their group within their main agenda.
  
  But it is a Power play never the less, from these early beginnings came leaders, who became Pharaohs, Kings, Emperors and within their entourage came the, High Priests, Sooth Sayers and Shaman. What better way to suck up to the leaders by giving them Devine status, of course in so doing you are also getting the powers that be to acknowledge first, that the Gods exist and second you need wise council who can speak to the Gods.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "it is possible to see where out of his naked fear there was a need for some sort of logical reason to explain the violence of nature that surrounded them."
  
  and that's changed?
  
  I agree that some folk will always rise to the top by their desire to exercise power, and yes religion is a simple way to manipulate the masses in any generation.
  
  They are still only frauds who use manipulation, deception and intimidation to control, and those are the three elements of witchcraft, which comes from Satan.
  
  What cannot be denied is that there is a spiritual plain where forces wage war against each other, and we are affected by their spiritual warfare.
  
  If you have never experienced this, you are forgiven for being unaware of it, some folk live and die never knowing what's really happening.
  
  But some folk are equally fully aware of the spiritual world and it's occupants, and can interface between it and the temporal plain.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  aquasilver wrote;
  "I agree that some folk will always rise to the top by their desire to exercise power, and yes religion is a simple way to manipulate the masses in any generation."
  
  Which includes you and yours.
  
  aquasilver wrote;
  "They are still only frauds who use manipulation, deception and intimidation to control, and those are the three elements of witchcraft, which comes from Satan."
  
  Your clerics are frauds as well. Satan-was created by God and is part of the Christian pantheon of deity constructs.
  
  Witchcraft has nothing to do with the Christian pantheon. Witch means Wise Woman. They were healers.
  
  aquasilver wrote;
  "What cannot be denied is that there is a spiritual plain where forces wage war against each other, and we are affected by their spiritual warfare.
  
  If you have never experienced this, you are forgiven for being unaware of it, some folk live and die never knowing what's really happening.
  
  But some folk are equally fully aware of the spiritual world and it's occupants, and can interface between it and the temporal plain."
  
  Yeah, yeah, and the moon is made out of green cheese, too. [rolls eyes]
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  swordofgideonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it has been said,when i was a child i spoke as a child but when i became a man i put away childish things,ye see Thur a glass darkly but in that day ye shall see as crystal,knowing all things hidden in the flesh,i tell you a truth spirit knows not the flesh but Thur the soul for the soul is the binding tie of flesh and spirit for without the soul the flesh whitherth to dust and the spirit return to eternity.shalom
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  label: 'Religion'.
  
  Why do people always concern themselves with 'labels'. Labels are man made symbolism which always seem to lead to misunderstanding. These misunderstandings can lead to conflict. Conflict leads to war and war leads to suffering.
  
  Why not just live life with good intentions and be tolerant to each other.
  
  First Rule: First do no harm
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That (as you probably know) is a Wiccan rule, which is a religion!
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hehehe - this is the law my dear aguasilver
  
  It is also the rule of the Buddhist and preceeding this the mystic lol
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Apologies, didn't mean to be pedantic I just wanted to point out that as a old fashioned Pagan that we don’t consider ourselves as a religion.
  
  Pagan, was more of a Roman insult aimed at those outside. It’s actually Latin for Rural, coined to describe those outside the Roman Cities and Towns who more or less carried on their lives as normal away from the interference of them new fangled Christians.
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  luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your a Pagan Mr. Fraser?
  
  MM
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The old fashioned type yes, not the Neo variety.
  
  To us Paganism is a way of life not a religion.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting. I was unaware what pagan translated to.
  
  I'm aware neo-paganism was written by Mr. Gardiner back in the 30's/40's ala Scientology was via the hack fantasy writer L. Ron Hubbard in the 50's.
  
  I understood Christianity destroyed the Druids and all their writings and learnings. Is that not so?
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As historical figures the Druids left little of themselves behind, there are no Druid writings for us to study so much about what we know, or think we know comes largely from Greek and or Roman hearsay.
  
  The concept that they were priests in some sort of ancient Religious order is somewhat ambiguous at best and has more to do with the several modern Neo Paganistic attempts to revive them as some sort of original religious group. There is certainly no historical or archeological evidence to support any such claims.
  
  Ancient Druids would seem to have more in common with Shaman or Wise village elders than priests, although in the capacity of Shaman they would have undoubtedly had a lot to do with the spiritual wellbeing of the community, organising and taking part in all sacred rituals.
  
  After the Romans adopted Christianity as their core religion any Pagan spiritual leader would have been in great danger.
  
  As I have often said, the Spiritual leader was, in any organisation, a powerful position, even stronger in some respects than the main leader to whom he would be a chief advisor. I mean let’s face it it’s going to be pretty tough leader who is going to go against the advised will of the Gods.
  So yes such people would see the advance of any new ideas as a threat to their power, equally so the advancing power would recognise such leaders as the main source of resistance and possible rebellion and therefore eliminate them.
  
  Back in the first century AD Roman was all powerful, so the result was pretty one sided.... Roman won the Druids lost.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you a Jungian psychologist, most are pagans.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jung studied from Freud - I love Freud!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Freud is Jewish, he got that theory from an old teaching about the nature of man,
  
  the Yetzer Hara being the id and so forth.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and so?
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not me !
  Have to admit I don't understand any of that psycho Mumbo Jumbo.
  
  Being a Pagan is not that difficult nor does it need that high degree of understanding.
  
  Nothing to worship, just an acceptance of what is a simple fact, that mankind is just one small part of the whole. We are not superior to any other life form on this planet nor do we have the right to assume that we have a right to threaten or destroy their world by our actions.
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  worshipers of creation and not the one who created it
  The God of the bible has this covered too:
  Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded.
  Better luck next life... oh you don't have one of those either...
  good choice
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  merlin fraser wrote;
  
  "...If like me you try to piece together man's early history it is possible to see where out of his naked fear there was a need for some sort of logical reason to explain the violence of nature that surrounded them.
  
  If you create Gods as part of this explanation it is fairly obvious that you are also going to acquire people who will claim that they can speak to those Gods. They may in turn been good people at heart and had the best interests of their group within their main agenda."
  
  Their group being the group of those who speak for deity?
  
  merlin fraser wrote;
  "But it is a Power play never the less, from these early beginnings came leaders, who became Pharaohs, Kings, Emperors and within their entourage came the, High Priests, Sooth Sayers and Shaman. What better way to suck up to the leaders by giving them Devine status, of course in so doing you are also getting the powers that be to acknowledge first, that the Gods exist and second you need wise council who can speak to the Gods."
  
  Power play indeed and a very smart one. Of course, the losers-as always-are the common folk.
  
  What I find fascinating is deities are unable to speak for themselves.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, there are those Xians who get very upset when their statements get challenged.
  
  shazwellyn posted;
  
  "Religion has evolved and changed over the many years that people have been on this earth. All religions stem from the first original source and there is plenty of evidence that substantiates this hypotheses."
  
  First original source? I'm intrigued about this comment and the objective supporting evidence. The reason is there are religions older than the Egyptian ones.
  
  I'm not up on the Australian 'Dreamtime' which is said to be 40,000 years old. Other than that one the oldest religion I'm aware of is Tiamat the Dragon at some 5.5 thousand years of age.
  
  The first religion started when someone made up an answer or answers to a question or questions people had.
  
  Almost forgot. A lady named Michelle Malkin {not the Philipina column writer} had/has an extensive history, and links, on 50megs.com. She had a nick of hypatiab7. I did a quick search, but wasn't able to locate it. Perhaps a better skilled person would find it.
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Never_Forgetposted 14 years ago
Easter was originally a Pagan holiday known as Eastre that was a festival for celebrating the Goddess of Spring and Offspring. Christian missionaries slowly began incorporating pieces of the story of Christ into their festives and eventually took it over and changed the name to Easter instead of Eastre.

Christians did things like this a lot so that it was easier to convert the pagans. Instead of forcing them to convert they simply stole their holidays and changed the meanings. Very clever.
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Rod Marsdenposted 14 years ago
The symbol of the cross or cruciform though not the crucifix predates Christianity.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is ankh - the key of life.
  
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the ANKH was Egyptian for life eternal
  
  the Cross was a Roman invention for torture and death, they are NOT related guys!
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I never said they were. There are however many examples of crosses and they don't all relate to crucifixion and some predate crucifixion. This is why I separated cross and cruciform from the more specific crucifix. The crucifix relates specifically to the crucifixion. The ankh looks like a cross to me and it is a cross but it is definitely not a crucifix.
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  agree Rod
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like all meanings with good intentions, just like the methods of 'chinese whispers', symbolisms get perverted.
  
  Take the magick cross... look what Hitler did to that! Perverted it and made it symbolic of Germany. Just another example.
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Merlin Fraserposted 14 years ago
aguasilver wrote:

I agree with you when you say “that some folk will always rise to the top by their desire to exercise power, and yes religion is a simple way to manipulate the masses in any generation.
They are still only frauds who use manipulation, deception and intimidation to control... “ and I would hope you might agree with me that they are still very much with us today.

However, when you bring in Witchcraft and Satan they are very much inventions of Christianity and was used as weapons to first intimidate and then persecute many innocent people.

As an old fashioned Pagan I would love to believe there is a spiritual plain and there is a place of peace beyond but like so many things our distant ancestors created the spirit world as a way to explain the stars in the sky above them. The stars were the campfires of the spirits.

However, all my studies and research lead me to conclude that there is nothing beyond and everything we are talking about here is based upon nothing more than ancient superstation.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i've read that the term Satan is derived from the planet Saturn. The writers of the bible were star-gazers
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Only by someone who couldn't spell....
  
  Saturn The planet was named after Saturn the Roman God of agriculture and harvest.
  
  Satan, is purely a Christian invention, just like Superman and Lex Luther, Batman and The Joker, if you have a super hero you just gotta have a Super villan to oppose him.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then why does he appear in the OT?
  
  Job 1:6-8 (Amplified Bible)
  
  Now there was a day when the sons (the angels) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the adversary and accuser) also came among them.
  
  And the Lord said to Satan, From where did you come? Then Satan answered the Lord, From going to and fro on the earth and from walking up and down on it.
  
  And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who [reverently] fears God and abstains from and shuns evil [because it is wrong]?
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I bow to your superior knowledge of the Bible and I revise my earlier statement that Satan was a Christian invention to a Biblical invention.
  
  I was actually referring more to the Christian pastime of Witch Hunting and branding Pagans as Devil worshippers before either drowning them if they were innocent and burning them if they didn't....
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  interesting too that the bible has astrological references all through it, but ordered the death of anyone that did astrology (hence people now take bible literally) - effective way to control people
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ____________________________
  That's because it has been changed. Stuff taken out as well as put in.
  Nothing sinful about astrology
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  hanging outposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  astronomy and astrology are two different things.
  astronomy was necessary because many of the festivals and feasts were on days dictated by the appearance of the moon.
  astrology tries to connect some source of power that isn't there. Astrology tries to control peoples lives (deborah sexton) Astrology tries to get people to believe in something other than God.
  so once again baileybear your inference to know about astrological signs in the bible, is shown to mean something else.. astronomy so therefore your blurted out statement about controlling people can also be refuted. -effective way to protect people
  have a nice day
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  Woman Of Courageposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hanging out, astromomy and astrology are definitely two different things.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you.
  
  Astronomy is a faculty of science.
  Astrology in the current context is not science; it is just superstition.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In Hebrew Yariv (Satan) represents-The Adversary-The opposer (opposites).
  The word Satan comes from the Greek word Satanás.
  The Greeks, Romans and Egyptians use planet names as their Gods and vice versa.
  
  Saturnus was/is a Roman God in Roman mythology. In Greek the same deity is known as Cronus,
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kazemaru2posted 14 years ago
early images of christianity contained images of zeus as god to better appeal to the pagan masses.
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Merlin Fraserposted 14 years ago
Just a thought but isn’t the term; “ First do no harm,” a corrupted quote from the Hippocratic writings of physicians, "...to do good or to do no harm.”
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No.. it is just something I try and live by. The intentions behind this, however, is something shared across many 'religions'. For example, in buddhism, it is about being neutral, to go with the cosmic flow and bend like the bamboo,, rather than the oak.
  
  In Christianity it is the 10 commandments - do no harm... The Kuran is fundamentally about the same thing (forget the extremists - this is a human condition, rather than spiritual).
  
  In Wiccan, it is about doing no harm. If you are practicing and you are fully informed about the whole of the law, then you would know the consequences of any action has penalties... so you first do no harm, if you are wise, of course!
  
  Back to your quote.. what a lovely way to live life by : "...to do good or to do no harm.” - a bit like being a good christian, a good pagan, a good muslim - do I really need to go on?
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  shaz......I am wiccan 23 years
  ?????????
  do no harm does not mean do as you wish but don't harm anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  it comes from the anchient Strega practice... translated it means
  act as your inner will (your inner God) (your Blue God for modern times if you will) NOT...do no harm first!
  
  direct translation:
  
  do as thou inner will, and go without discourse
  
  Gardner re-wrote the meaning in his notebook he said got it word of mouth from his mentor, he was not correct. She was Strega, a master in the Practice.
  
  if you do this, act as your inner God power, you cannot harm anything, because you are always true to the self.
  
  You are one with the universal truth as a Wiccan. a Universal power and thus by nature you cannot harm anything.
  
  By your acceptance, You are responsible, you should have had this explained to you when you declared Wicca.
  
  it ties in with the saying "the same lips that speak the spell, speak your words!
  
  there is honestly some real history to the practice, it is a life style, not just a beliefe.
  
  remember please, ok
  at Degree one-we give you to yourself (your inner God)
  at Degree two, we give you to your community (you do for others, teach them their inner God power)
  
  But..at Degree three..."You" give yourself to the God/dess... (You are Universaly- ONE)
  
  Your Path is a growth cycle, your development into the one.
  
  you ask, devinate- then proceed...not just function with good intent first!
  
  Wicca, Budhisim, Taoism all have that central universal principle of one.
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You said:
  
  do no harm does not mean do as you wish but don't harm anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  
  I am sorry if you perceived my message as this. Of course, us as individuals, need to listen to our heart - we are one in the spirit of the universal consciousness.
  
  (the trouble with forums and 'physical/symbolic communication', it always leads to misunderstandings... which is why I really dont like to participate in hostile forum negativity - if you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I also believe one should not force ones views on others - we all at different points of progression and what might be right for one person, may not be right for another - it is horses for courses.)
  
  Good luck and blessed be x
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  sorry Shaz, I just get so tierd of the younger eclectic set and the free will stuff, ( the people outside of Wicca with superstitions and no facts that look at it like a Walt Disney thing!)
  like all Wiccans are suposed to have some inside cart- blanch powers! True Wiccans are much more reserved and questioning than that. actualy a thoughtfull people in truth. Just different in their outlooks.
  
  It comes from years of teaching in a Coven. that protective instinct trigger-behavior. It's Not meant to be absolute right or law. Just a view only.
  I also see the conversations go off track like you do.
  
  For some time now, I have walked away from Wicca, given up the Altar and the position, but What you say here has its own merit inside of Wicca, so keep posting you are fine.
  
  mm and blessed be Lass.
  
  Sorry to come off so strong or formal, nothing bad intended, please forgive some hard line old habbits from a silly Old man!
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Many years ago, I used to practice with ritual. I realised that ritual was for us (the physical) and not necessary to tune in. You know, I really think everyone has the ability to go beyond, without ritual (just to clarify for those reading on... ritual is about pray, meditation - it is preparation to get in tune with a higher consciousness, or what ever label you want to term it - not just witchy-poo stuff). Well, the point is, if you feel that something is right, it is. It is the natural path for you - look for the signs.
  
  Now, dutchman, you know about consequencies to actions. For every action there is a reaction.. and you know the responsibility of knowing the law - hidden knowledge - for this reason I have kept silent. It is a big responsibility to share the knowledge because of the repercusions. It would be like giving a gun to a baby - you know exactly what I mean without me spelling it out, dont you? What do you think when people share what should remain hidden?
  
  In fact, we must always consider our responsibility and duty of care when we publish hubs, dont you think? Because the rules apply whatever the action.
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I certinly do know and also suprisingly still- strongly agree, very much so
  
  What do I think? I think it a mistake to do it. But now after many travel years, and work in it and walking away from it, maybe for very different reasoning than before. But silence non the less, so yes
  
  point taken
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I tend to adapt the craft to the way other people understand - in their language, if you like. It doesnt matter what a persons ritual background is (Christian, Buddhist - whatever) they all share similar foundations - because the concepts are only evolutions from the same source. Each denomination all have their masters in helping to spread the message of unconditional love and good intentions. What we need to do, is work together - this is very powerful and good. We both know this power is white magick and is the only true invocation that counteracts the thought forms that us as human beings spell outward in a very uncontrolled way (I hope you understand my underlying context here).
  
  My feeling with you, is that you know what is ahead of us - the gathering has started - do I have to say anymore?
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shazwellyn wrote;
  
  ...You know, I really think everyone has the ability to go beyond...
  
  Go beyond what? [puzzled]
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  shazwellynposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  arh, well that is something you will need to search on your pathway to personal development.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  From Wikpedia;
  Strega, the Italian word for witch, may refer to:
  
  * Stregoneria - Italian Witchcraft and Folk Magic.
  * Stregheria, or the Strega tradition of modern Italian wiccan styled witchcraft.
  o a female practitioner of Stregheria
  
  I've never heard of Strega before. Your words were interesting to read. Thank you for posting.
  
  Cheers
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pisean282311posted 14 years ago
didnt get you op...every religion has evolved from paganism..what is new in it?
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Merlin Fraserposted 14 years ago
I think it came from a story about Buddhism in reply to being thanked for a kindness a priest was asked is there anything I can do for you ?

His reply was, " you can repay me by doing a kindness for ten others and request that each do the same..."

How I wish we could live by such simple standards and do no harm but I suspect as long as Selfishness and Greed exist in our World mine is a forelorn wish...
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  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree Merlin, you try to perfect yourself and try over and over, but not so for all.
  
  people are learning though it is not all forelorn I think
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like 'pay/play it forward.'
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
Pagan is a word Christians used to replace the word "Gentile" (although they really don't know that today)
and Gentile meant they weren't Abrahamic

It is the Greek Polytheism religion, who believe in many God's
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
There is a Neo-Paganism, but that's not what pagan means.

Pagan is a word Christians used to replace the word "Gentile" (although they really don't know that today)
and Gentile meant they weren't Abrahamic

It is the Greek Polytheism religion, who believe in many God's
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Joy56posted 14 years ago
Christmas, Easter, most religious holidays have their origin in paganism..... More fool people to blindly follow these things in the name of religion, the bible and even Christ himself.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________________
  Show me where Yahshua (Jesus to you) followed this.
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think she is saying that christianity took over the old pagan festival days.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well sometimes people talk about pagans as if they are talking about nazis..paganism is origin of every religion of today...as human evolved , religions evolved too...
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  religions evolving, not sure they ever did, or improved either! but yes the pagans were all the religions that christianity beat, bludgeoned and burned out so it could replace them.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what i think is it was natural for early humans to believe that natural forces were some form of god and also that dead relatives were some form of supernatural once dead..they assigned controlling figure to all forces...then as they evolved they brought more controlling entity and finally to single controlling entity..pagans had some form of corporate structure as far as idea of managing universe was concerned...
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it devolved and also they were bludgeoning both ways. I think as long as people evolved then it has done what it aimed to do in its crude way. We are alive, are we not?
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for pointing that out.... It does feel like it sometimes when you say you are a Pagan some people look at you as if we Eat our Young or something !
  
  Personally I blame Hollywood....!
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  personally I blame the parents who didn't by their children enough books to read and placed them infront of a tv.
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  ceciliabeltranposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no she is saying that Christianity today has nothing to do with Jewish teachings of Jesus. Although the Christmas Tree is not Pagan, those balls and the star on top is clearly the Kabbalistic Tree.
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iantoPFposted 14 years ago
It is natural that a great leader, chief or King would have his stories told sfter his death and that the stories would grow with the telling, that is the nature of an oral tradition. After a few generations that leader has the stature of a God. I'm inclined to the view that religions are a form of ancestor worship. When a baby is born we still point to features and mannerisms and declare "Just like his grandfather" or "Great grandma will never be dead while this little girl is around" It's easy to see how these inherited traits can lead to a view of reincarnation.
Personally, I am a Pagan and I honor the old Gods. Purely because it fills a deep spiritual need within me. That does not mean my way would have any relevance to another. Pick your road, it's yours. I perform rituals as the seasons of the year go by and this brings me closer to the Earth and I feel in tune with the heartbeat of the World.
Like I said, that's just me.
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thirdmilleniumposted 14 years ago
Christianity has a lot of paganism incorporated into it. For one, Christ was not born on Dec 25 at all. It was the celebration of the Sun God Ra in Egypt.

Anyway, all this have nothing to do with Christ, the savior. He came to the world for the sinners, did his duty by God and went away. He will return one day.

All this trivial matters will hardly matter though the churches of the world will be put to shame (all of them)
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They aren't already?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What do you undestand from "paganism'? Please
  
  Is it the same as Druidian or it has different origin and pecularities?
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iantoPFposted 14 years ago
I agree with hanging out that Jesus was never presented as a sun god. However at the same time that Christianity was gaining ground so was the cult of Apollo, the sun God. Apollo was always shown as having a halo around him and this was adopted by the early Christians for Jesus and the Saints. It was another case of Paganism being incorporated into Christianity but the original intent in the gospels was never to present it that way.
Incidentally, the similarity between "Son" and "Sun" only occurs in English, a very modern language dating from the 13th century so please do not read anything into that. Other languages use very different words.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
aguasilver wrote:
Absolutely true, when Constantine 'adopted' Christianity, he in fact formed Churchianity in that he made it the 'official' religion, and in order to facilitate all the pagan religions that Rome sanctioned, he 'incorporated' elements into the new religion he founded, hence we 'gained' and altar, where none was required (Christ had been the ultimate sacrifice, no other was needed) and we changed the worship day from the Sabbath to Sun Day, the festival of Saturnalia became Christ Mass, Easter replaced Passover remembrance and many other changes that took the Christ out of Christianity and put the emphasis on Churchianity.

But throughout all this and despite the persecution, God has always retained a remnant of true believers who live by the words of Christ.

Churchianity has expanded over the last 2000 years, but Christ remains pure and innocent, yes He is abused by Churchianity, but never the less, God has used Churchianity to hide His remnant amongst all this time.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
============================================================

xobliam wrote
Churchianity...that's interesting.

The book of revelation begins with the message of John to the seven churches.

Being a member of any of the seven churches in that age would have likely been similar to being a member of any contemporary cult. And cults have a way of raising the wrath of secular officials. (ie. WACO....). In that age the official was the Emperor and his soldiers.

Here you would have people trying to live an ascetic christ driven lifestyle in a pagan world.

A few hundred years pass and suddenly Constantine comes along and secularizes the churches and in no time every one is dancing to the tune of the Roman Christian movement. That is politico-ecclesiastics at play.

Makes me wonder what the true meaning of church means.

Churchianity...Good one !
=========================================================

And yet people can not comprehend the possibility that
Churchianity could be the "Beast" as described in Rev. 13.

But as aguasilver said; God has used Churchianity to hide His remnant amongst all this time.

AND God sent the two witnesses down to the earth and gave them the same period of time as he did the "Beast"
The only difference is that 1260 days is an exact period of time.
Forty two months "Could" be slightly less precise of a period of time.
If you tell your child that you are going to buy them a car after 42 months ?? They could expect to receive it after 41 months and 3 weeks or 42 months and a week?

As I have mentioned many times... 42 months is approx 1650 years.
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pylos26posted 14 years ago
Was "christian mythology"...but them wise priest final decided that some may own dictionaries...so they dropped the mythology part of the name.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Astrology is just superstition; it has got nothing to do with Jesus.
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  pylos26posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And your answer has nothing to do with my response. what are you talking about?
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sofsposted 14 years ago
Hey you spammer you have been reported
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  Merlin Fraserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is there any chance you could be a little more specific as to whom and or what you are referring to just so we can all understand what you're talking about ?
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iantoPFposted 14 years ago
There are three things that I find particularly distasteful about forum threads started or joined by Paarsurrey;
1) His constant spamming of these forums in a way that distracts from the debate of true wordsmiths.
2) His pretense that he is a Moslem preaching Islam when his little cult has been excluded from the Islamic community. They are not even allowed to visit Mecca. His posts are not authentic Islam they are the notions of his group.
3) His insistance, as he did with Merlin a couple of posts back, that all replies should be made on the forum. I find this completely disrespectful. This is an article based site not a forum based site. He refuses to place his beliefs in a Hub, or to read and comment respectfully on the authorship of the writers here. Instead he wants us to work solely as a forum.
The sooner he is gone the better.
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Merlin Fraserposted 14 years ago
You really need to learn a few more words to describe those of us who do not immediately bow down before your God, without those who you call sceptics, agnostics and atheists who would be left to challenge the religious status quo or to ask WHY ?

I think I may have be born with the word WHY on my lips and I mistrust anyone who will not answer my questions honestly which is why I turned my back on those who serve when I was branded a trouble maker and punished for asking too many questions.

You want a list of people who have played a role in the creation of civilization as we know it, I can’t vouch for them being atheists but they sure as hell weren’t following your God.

Let me see, where should I start, how about the Aztec, Mayan and the Inca civilizations Or perhaps the Chinese who wear wearing silk while most of the world was running around naked and prodding each other with spears. Then we have Genghis Khan, the Greeks, Egyptians and let us not forget to mention the Romans all of whom played a major role in how our world was shaped.

So you see yours is a very narrow little world, closed to free thinking and the will to let the mind wander where it will trapped by religious thoughts and leaders who mire you in the far distant past.

I do not blame organised religions or the various church leaders for all that ails this world, I only hold them accountable for daring to hold back time and our right to feel and think freely and reach our own conclusions in our own way.

Only a free mind can ever find true enlightenment, I haven’t found it, perhaps I never will but I know that I enjoy my journey of discovery and will until the day I die.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  None of the above claimed to be Atheists nations.
  
  There were hardly any individual Atheists who made prominence; similary hardly any groups or nations who claimed to be Atheists.
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Merlin Fraserposted 14 years ago
Time for me to Depart....I think !
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Have a good night!
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brotheryochananposted 14 years ago
pagan origins of CATHOLICISM. Try to get it right once.
The origins of christianity are the early church written in acts and named by the books, ephesians = church of ephesis, corinthians = church at corinth, romans = church at romans.
The received texts were the texts used for the NT dispensation. The OT masoretic texts are considered the holy scriptures. The received texts were written by apostles of jesus christ. Hebrews probably by titus, a good read.
IF you do ANY research you will find the council of nicea and trent to be foundational for the CATHOLIC church religion.

MY spiritual walk in JEsus Christ has NO pagan origins.

i can be emailed
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I take it if you're not catholic, then your denomination arose as a protestant sect. Protestant christianity arose out of the catholic church, did they not?
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Paul Wingertposted 14 years ago
The traditions and myths of Christianity is mostly Roman Paganism. When Rome adapted to Christianity, most of the recently unemployed Roman gods took jobs a arch angles. For example the Roman god, Mars became archangel Michael, Mercury became Gabriel, etc. The day of judgement of the soul, obeying commandments, a book on morals (later the Bible, Tora, and Koran) were ancient Eqyptian beliefs. Christian holidays are as pagan as you can get. Christmas has only one component that is Christian and that is celebrating the birth of Jesus. All the rest like gift giving, caroling, burning ule logs, hanging evergreen branches, mistletoe and the rest are all pagan traditions celebrating the Roman festival, Saturnalia or the winter solstic with Nordic cultures.
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