Those who take Christianity seriously have great difficulty understanding how military chaplains can read "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matthew 5:44) and then prepare the morally deceived to go out to kill and maim God's children.Well guess what? It turns out that murder doesn't bother military chaplains but homosexuality sure does! If it takes homosexual rights to drive the clergy away from dedicating their lives to evil and sends them back to serving God,then bring on them homosexual rights!To expand on this vital issue,I'd like to pass on extremely important insight I gained just a couple of weeks ago.The word "mammon" in Matthew 6:24
(No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon ) which almost universally is translated in American churches as "money",comes from the Babylonian word "mimma" which when translated into English turns into "anything at all" , meaning that Christians must serve God alone and certainly NEVER the false god NATION,most especially since it is one of the most most morally filthy among all in the entirety of recorded history. To encourage our nation's military chaplains to get back on the narrow road that leads to Jesus, it's essential that we all advocate for the abolishing of the military's "don't ask don't tell" policy for the reasons the article below explains.
CHAPLAINS WARN AGAINST "DON'T ASK DON'T TELL" REPEAL
By TOM BREEN
Dozens of military chaplains say that serving both God and the U.S. armed forces will become impossible for chaplains whose faiths consider homosexuality a sin if the "don't ask don't tell" policy is thrown out.
If a chaplain preaches against homosexuality, he could conceivably be disciplined as a bigot under the military's nondiscrimination policy, the chaplains say.
Clergy would be ineligible to serve as chaplains if their churches withdraw their endorsements, as some have threatened to do if "don't ask, don't tell" ends. Critics of allowing openly gay troops fear that clergy will leave the service or be forced to find other jobs in the military that don't involve their faiths.
"The bottom line is religious freedom," said Army Brig. Gen. Douglas Lee, one of sixty-five ( 65) chaplains who signed a letter urging President Barack Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates to keep "don't ask don't tell."
A federal judge threw out the policy this month, but it remains in effect while the federal government appeals the ruling. Under the 1993 Clinton administration law, the military cannot inquire into service members' sexual orientation and punish them for it as long as they keep it to themselves.
Opponents of the ban argue that military chaplains have a different job than ministering to a parish where everyone shares the same beliefs. THEY MUST RESPECT ALL FAITHS and counsel all service members,FROM DEVOUT MUSLIMS TO ATHEISTS.
"My heart doesn't bleed for these chaplains," said Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. "If you don't like it, there's a very simple solution: Fold your uniform, file the paperwork and find something else to do."
Officials at North Carolina's sprawling Fort Bragg Army post and the Armed Forces Chaplains Board did not respond to requests to interview military chaplains about the issue. The group of chaplains who wrote the letter to Obama and Gates said they were speaking out because active chaplains could be accused of insubordination if they publicly oppose repealing "don't ask don't tell."
"Many if not most chaplains will confront a profoundly difficult moral choice: whether they are to obey God or to obey men," they wrote in their letter.
The Department of Defense has not said specifically how it would address any potential conflicts with chaplains stemming from the end of "don't ask don't tell". There are about 3,000 chaplains on active duty, most from theologically conservative faiths and organizations.
In the Army, the U.S. military's largest branch, the largest denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention, with roughly 450 active chaplains. Next is the Roman Catholic Church, with 270, followed by chaplains from the Full Gospel Pentecostal church; Presbyterian and Reformed churches; and Assemblies of God.
A spokeswoman for the Pentagon said chaplains must have the endorsement of their church or religious organization to serve the role. If a chaplain's church withdraws its endorsement, the military begins processing the chaplain to leave the military.
Several denominations have already threatened to take such a step, citing long lists of potential conflicts the chaplains could face with openly gay soldiers.
The Southern Baptist Convention, the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church in America, the Presbyterian Church in America, and the Rabbinical Alliance of America have issued statements or written to the Obama administration this year with their concerns that repealing "don't ask, don't tell" could force their chaplains to choose between serving God and serving the military.
The Orthodox Church in America, for example, condemns homosexuality and mandates that the appropriate action its ministers should take toward gay people who seek counseling is to steer them to repent and renounce the gay lifestyle.
"If such an attitude were regarded as 'prejudice' or the denunciation of homosexuality as 'hate language,' or the like, we would be forced to pull out our chaplains from military service," the church informed the Pentagon in May.
The Catholic Church likewise deems homosexual behavior a sin."This means that Catholic chaplains must show compassion for persons with a homosexual orientation, but can never condone - even silently - homosexual behavior," Archbishop Timothy Broglio said in a June letter calling for "don't ask" to remain in place. Broglio leads the Archdiocese for Military Services and is the church's chief liaison to the military."A change might have a negative effect on the role of the chaplain not only in the pulpit, but also in the classroom, in the barracks, and in the office," Broglio wrote.
Every officer in the military, including chaplains, is evaluated in an annual report. One criterion is whether the officer supports the military's equal opportunity policy. If gays and lesbians are included in that policy, careers of chaplains who criticize homosexuality could suffer.
"As a chaplain, on religious grounds, I could not support that, meaning that as a chaplain, I'm going to face consequences," said Col. David Upchurch, an Army chaplain.
The retired chaplains' letter raises numerous potential conflicts facing conservative chaplains:
- As the administrators of the Army's Strong Bonds program for marriages strained by military life, would chaplains have to begin including same-sex couples?
- Would a chaplain be forced to allow gay soldiers to assist with lay duties at religious services?
- If chaplains must be available to counsel personal problems for all soldiers, will they have to remain silent on their views about homosexuality?
This is too big for a forum post. Stick it in a hub.
Funny that. Of course, mass murder is common place in scriptures and is fundamental to the fear of a gods wrath and his commands over his flock to eliminate anyone who does not share in those beliefs.
Good point, Beelzedad. Further, mass murder and mahem in the Bible is often done in the name of God, who in many cases ordered it.
And Christians are repulsed by homosexuality?
A lot of twisted thinking.
Like someone else suggested, I too wish you had kept this in a hub. Because then I wouldn't have been as tempted to tell you you've got one twisted view of the Bible and Christianity.
Go ahead and continue your political correctness. I, on the other hand (and other true Christians) will continue to fight Goliath with the pebbles of common sense and conscience and citizens' rights that the Lord has so graciously delivered unto those who will pick them up and use them.
And I will "PRAISE GOD!" for the people that I know and have had occasion to encounter who have homosexual temptations but have trusted in God to help them deal with that (successfully, I will add.) The Great Counselor wields much more ultimate power than any politically-correct doctor of theology or philosophy or whatever label he/she so audaciously likes to wear.
//If a chaplain preaches against homosexuality, he could conceivably be disciplined as a bigot under the military's nondiscrimination policy, the chaplains say.//
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
That describes the action of the chaplains in regards to homosexuals. If the shoe fits, put it on and walk proudly.
//The group of chaplains who wrote the letter to Obama and Gates said they were speaking out because active chaplains could be accused of insubordination if they publicly oppose repealing "don't ask don't tell."//
I was under the impression that members of the military followed orders. Give them an order and if they refuse to obey, act like a superior officer is supposed to and have them relieved of their position or command.
From what I have been able to learn it is the older military personel who are fighting this. The majority of younger people have no problem serving along side a homosexual. However the old farts who grew up as bigots still make the rules.
There sure seems to be a lot of people who don't think the rules apply to them based on who they talk to in their head.
Newsflash to military chaplains: You have been counseling gay servicemen and women all along!!!
Can I get a bmen? sry, amen was already taken.
I was under the impression that Christianity held to the order of love and God was the only being afforded the right to judge? I have served my country along side many gay and many straight people. The one thing that I find so heartbreaking about the topic of, "who should be allowed to serve and who should not", is that all of these military people I stood beside had the same color of blood spill from their bodies in battle no matter who their heart fell in love with. Shouldn't we honor the person and not hate the love?
~Always choose love~
Funny, other countries have military chaplains despite allowing gays to serve openly.
Hmm....it would be nice if these two questions could be answered--
Is the first section of that post the views of DrDean, as I first assumed? Or is the entire post the views of Tom Breen? ..Because DrDean's answers to many questions around here say exactly the opposite. Although his one hub is...a strange mixture...
And how/why did he remove the words "Praise God" from the thread title?
You know, there are times I'm really glad that people have learned not to associate the teachings of a church with the teachings of God. I mean, thinking someone as human and fallible as you or I is so correct in Biblical interpretation that he/she can go a step further and pass judgement on another person to the degree of moral and/or physical conflict is just crazy! Yup, glad I live in a world where we don't elevate ourselves above God and His domain...
I take it National sovreignty means nothing to you.
Nor especially the sovreignty of the word of God.
Or maybe you meant that many churches don't go by God's rules?
If so, then....I can agree with that to a point.
"National sovereignty" is a legal expression of the right to self-government by a state or nation. It entails the declaration by a political system to operate independently of foreign rule or control.
What does this have to do with this discussion?
The Sovereignty Of God In Providence
There are six basic principles surrounding the sovereignty of God in providence that run all the way through the Word of God and under gird its message of salvation. It is essential to understand and believe these six principles in order to have a Biblical understanding of either God Himself or the theology of His sovereign grace.
Six Basic Principles
First Principle: God Has a Plan
Second Principle: God Is Always in Control
Third Principle: Everybody Works for God
Fourth Principle: God Punishes the Very People He uses to Accomplish His Purposes
Fifth Principle: The Devil Is the Agent for All Evil
Sixth Principle: All Affliction Is NOT Chastisement
These deal with god's law and the problem here is a matter of national law. God's law contrary to your beliefs does not supercede national law in this country.
In regards to your last remark...No christians obey all of god's laws. They all pick and chose those they feel comfortable dispensing hate over and ignore the rest. They naturally assume they have the same right to do this with our national laws, and are quite mistaken. Believing in god does not give you the right to the underlying principle of this country's founding...ALL MAN ARE CREATED EQUAL. It does not read "all men our chosen god deems to be equal, according to our personal interpretation of who he says is created equal, are in fact created equal".
Sry should have read...Believing in god does not give you the right toignore the underlying principle of this country's founding...
All your (or Mighty Mom's, or anyone else's) preachin' and ignoring Scripture doesn't change what God says about this subject. Nor does it change the meaning of the Constitution.
Indeed men were created equal. It's their choice if they don't want to act like men. But in no wise does either document allow for the legalization of wrong. No matter how much you or anyone else wants to read between the lines things that aren't there.
It legalizes divorce.
Wouldn't your religion say that's 100% wrong? Doesn't your religion make a much bigger deal about divorce than homosexuality?
If you're not a Christian, but Christian-ish, then I suppose it's fine to reprioritize...
BD, The fact that you believe it is wrong is of little importance. If you have the right to be a narrow minded holier than thou christian, they have the right to be whatever they choose to. Your beliefs however misguided they may be, are not the basis of our laws and the same goes for your all time favorite fantasy novel that as you say and others I like to ignore.
Please by all means, explain what you think the constitution has to say about Gays serving in the military. For that matter explain where in the bill of rights or constitution it proves that America was founded as a christian nation.
In the purest sense, the two beliefs are not antithetical.
The principle that all men (and women) are created equal = love thy neighbor as thyself, does it not?
And let's not forget, (as it appears these chaplains have, unfortunately) the teachings of Jesus Christ in NO WAY promote intolerance or hatred or judgment.
I'm beginning to think the name Christian is a misnomer. Bible thumper is more accurate.
"Dominionist" or "Christianist" are also used to describe right-wing political zealotry wearing the shroud of Christianity.
How about if we change Christianist to Christian-ish?
That would seem to me to fit the bill of people who pick and choose which parts of Christian doctrine they live by.
Good to see you LL. I've been seeing some real zinger posts from you recently. Keep it up!
Great to see you, too.
I guess I don't quite understand the duties of the Chaplain. For counsil, would mean that if a man or woman comes to them asking for counsil, advice, or even for prayer, I thought it was their duty as a chaplain to provide this for them. I thought it was their calling to do so.
I would think if A person approaches a Chaplain with homosexual issues he would then counsil them on what he and the church beleives is to be right, but advice the person to take a personal approach to God to find the answers for themselves.
Of course this is just what kind of religion I have been in, Catholics are different as they think you have to ask a priest for forgivness and say a bunch of predetermined prayers, or what have you.
In anycase I would think this should have no bearing on what the Chaplians do. But would give them a clearer insight of what that person may need as far as counsiling. He can still give his counsil, but it is still up to the individual what they do with it. How would this make them be sighted as bigots for preaching their beliefs. Since noone has to follow what they preach if they do not want to.
I don't know I just know that in any other work place, there are many diversities, including sexual orentation, where this is not a problem. And it shouldn't be in the military as well.
The US was founded to be nation free from oppression. And that is a principle that applies to oppressors you agree with as well as ones you don't.
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