America the christian nation

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   Baileybearposted 14 years ago

   From reading hubs and forum posts, I was surprised that America considers itself a christian nation, & many american christians were very intolerant of other views (eg saying things like "all atheists are evil", attacking people of other religions, saying, "we were here first" etc)
   
   I also notice celebrities seem to be over-rated in America too (and overpaid)- TV personalities, actors, sports-people, rich people with no talent etc
   
   Heard terrible things about the hatred in the bible belt (eg of homosexuals)
   
   What's so christian about america?

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Does any other country exercises the right of freedom of expression as America does?
        I think that maybe in America we have taken this right to extreme. And therefore we may seem to be that which we seem to be.
      
        And concerning racism ..  Racism is but one form of many prejudices.  I have never been in any group that everyone there were not prejudice concerning some issue  or  group or thing.
      
      It seems to be human nature that the more abundant that issue of your prejudice becomes in your life the more reactive you become to it. The more verbal.
      
         Everybody does it!  But most do not admit it. It just isn't as noticeable when the object of your prejudice isn't starring you in the face every day.
          That old -fight or flight- instinct.
          Everyone is prejudice of something, to some degree.
      If you do not know what yours is yet, just wait until it comes up and stares you in the face. You will recognize it then.
      
          Just saying that it is easy to recognize my faults and become prejudiced against them.
      
      Everyone is doing it so it must be OK.

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         stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Good Morning Brother!  I'm prejudice against alarm clocks!!!
         
         It is true.  I think most people have a little prejudice in them.  I think a lot of it depends on their upbringing.

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            Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Morning...  you going to work today? 
              If so must be second shift ...  don't sound like you had your coffee yet.   
            
               I'm also prejudiced against empty coffee cups.

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               stilljustwonderinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               No, no work today, but my coffee cup is empty.  I do need to fill it back up.
               I worked 1st shift last week ( I hate alarm clocks!! )  I think it should be illegal to get out of bed at 5 am!!!!  2nd shift next week.
               You working today?  It is coooooooold here!
               
               Love ya

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                  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Sorry   was over in hub land. 
                  No not been working out in the world much for about a week and 1/2 ..  Working around the place though.
                  
                    YEP it is cold this AM  down to freezing 70 for a high.
                  
                    I'm prejudice against cold.

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         Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         freedom of expression - you mean "free speech"?  As long as you're not someone like Oprah when she made her never going to eat a hamburger again statement which upset beef farmers?
         From outside America, it was reported that most Americans thought going to war was a good idea and people were afraid to speak out against Bush - any truth in that (guess there is some, given the way the Dixie Chicks? were slaughtered for saying something)

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      Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "What's so christian about america?"
      
      Nothing. It's an officially secular Constitutional Republic that officially guarantees the freedom to believe (or not) and worship (or not) as you see fit, as long as you do not violate another person's rights.
      
      We were founded by Christians, yes, and we have a Christian majority, yes. But we do not have a Christian foundation, nor are our laws and/or Constitution based on the Ten Commandments or any other Biblical excerpt, no matter what the ideologues agitating in favor of theocracy would have you believe.
      
      The founders, though most of them were Christians of one stripe or another, deliberately chose not to make the US a "Christian nation," believing that both the church and the state would be better off if they didn't mix.

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      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The constitution starts out, "We the People" and there is no mention of Christians or God contained within it. Further to that, in 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

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   ediggityposted 14 years ago

   We are a Constitutional Republic , with a Christian foundation.Not a Christian Nation.  People are free to practice whatever religion they like.
   
   We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

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      Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I get the impression that America is more racist than other western nations too

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         ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I guess it depends who you ask, and what race you are.

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      Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Why do you assume "Creator" implies Christian?
      
      Some of the people involved in that document were Deists, not Christians.  Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin,  Hamilton and others were such.
      
        "Creator" means what it says and by itself only says that the person using the term can't imagine that something exists without being created.   It doesn't automatically imply gods and even if the person does think the "creator" was some sort of god, it certainly doesn't say that god has all the Christian nonsense attributes.  In the case of Deists, Christian clap-trap was rejected outright.

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         ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Who said I assumed anything?  I think that is what you just did.

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            Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You said "We are a Constitutional Republic , with a Christian foundation"
            
            You then quoted the part of Declaration of Independence that includes that "Creator" bit.
            
            You want to explain why it is unreasonable to assume you were trying to say that the quote supported your assertion?

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               ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               It was actually to support the fact that people are free to practice whatever religion they like no matter what creator they believe in.  You conveniently left out the rest of what I said and then made an assumption.  In fact, it was the very last sentence I wrote, which was then directly supported by a quote.  Get your facts straight and don't assume.

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                  Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Then you simply presented your argument poorly by adding that "Christian foundation" nonsense.  If you had left that out, I wouldn't have said a word.
                  
                  Nor did I "conveniently" leave anything out. I quoted you in full.

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                     ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Oh yeah?  You misinterpreted, so it's my fault.  LOL, you left out the whole last sentence.  I wasn't making an argument, I was stating a fact.  Lastly, it's no secret that there was a strong Christian foundation behind the establishment of the United States.  Discussing this with you is pointless, because you obviously already have your mind made up. God Speed.

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                        Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        I left out nothing.   I didn't edit your post in any way.  Go back and look again.  Nor did I "misinterpret".  You assert a Christian foundation; I say  you are mistaken.
                        
                        
                        It is your "fact" that I object to.   The Deists among the Founders were not Christians.  That undermines your assertion of a Christian foundation.   In fact, the foundation was Christians (Christians of competing sects, of course), Jews, Deists, atheists, agnostics and no doubt others if we don't ignore those who sent these representatives to form the Nation -Muslims, Buddhists, Druids, Wiccans...
                        
                        No monolithic Christian foundation no matter how much you want it to be so,.

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                           Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I studied in school (OH so long ago)  that most everyone that came here were running away from the Church organization such as it was at the time.  They were called misfits of every sort. 
                               My teachers taught that the freedom of religion was centered around having a choice as to which ONE.
                              I think that history leaves out the  OR  NOT part.

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                              Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              All of our founders were well aware of the dangers of state sponsored religion, yes.
                              
                              One irony is that the Baptists of this country were once a strong force for religious freedom and keeping religion away from government.  That was because they had been persecuted so terribly by other faiths.
                              
                              But now it seems to be some of the Baptist groups that want their religion in government.  Terrible irony.

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                                 Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Seems that everything remains in a state of change.
                                 That is a shame too   or  not.
                                 
                                    Otherwise we get stuck in our thinking.
                                    Every few years I look back in time and can't believe I used to do that. but am much wiser now ...  till a few years pass then I am thinking it again  Now I got it right...  and then when time passes etc. etc.

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                           ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Sorry, but our Founding Fathers disagree with you.
                           
                           
                           http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_F … igion.html
                           Religious Affiliation   
                                             # of signers % of signers
                           Episcopalian/Anglican    32    57.1%
                           Congregationalist    13    23.2%
                           Presbyterian            12    21.4%
                           Quaker                     2    3.6%
                           Unitarian or Universalist2    3.6%
                           Catholic             1    1.8%
                           TOTAL                    56    100%
                           
                           Name of Signer    State    Religious Affiliation
                           Charles Carroll    Maryland    Catholic
                           Samuel Huntington    Connecticut    Congregationalist
                           Roger Sherman    Connecticut    Congregationalist
                           William Williams    Connecticut    Congregationalist
                           Oliver Wolcott    Connecticut    Congregationalist
                           Lyman Hall    Georgia    Congregationalist
                           Samuel Adams    Massachusetts    Congregationalist
                           John Hancock    Massachusetts    Congregationalist
                           Josiah Bartlett    New Hampshire    Congregationalist
                           William Whipple    New Hampshire    Congregationalist
                           William Ellery    Rhode Island    Congregationalist
                           John Adams    Massachusetts    Congregationalist; Unitarian
                           Robert Treat Paine    Massachusetts    Congregationalist; Unitarian
                           George Walton    Georgia    Episcopalian
                           John Penn    North Carolina    Episcopalian
                           George Ross    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian
                           Thomas Heyward Jr.    South Carolina    Episcopalian
                           Thomas Lynch Jr.    South Carolina    Episcopalian
                           Arthur Middleton    South Carolina    Episcopalian
                           Edward Rutledge    South Carolina    Episcopalian
                           Francis Lightfoot Lee    Virginia    Episcopalian
                           Richard Henry Lee    Virginia    Episcopalian
                           George Read    Delaware    Episcopalian
                           Caesar Rodney    Delaware    Episcopalian
                           Samuel Chase    Maryland    Episcopalian
                           William Paca    Maryland    Episcopalian
                           Thomas Stone    Maryland    Episcopalian
                           Elbridge Gerry    Massachusetts    Episcopalian
                           Francis Hopkinson    New Jersey    Episcopalian
                           Francis Lewis    New York    Episcopalian
                           Lewis Morris    New York    Episcopalian
                           William Hooper    North Carolina    Episcopalian
                           Robert Morris    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian
                           John Morton    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian
                           Stephen Hopkins    Rhode Island    Episcopalian
                           Carter Braxton    Virginia    Episcopalian
                           Benjamin Harrison    Virginia    Episcopalian
                           Thomas Nelson Jr.    Virginia    Episcopalian
                           George Wythe    Virginia    Episcopalian
                           Thomas Jefferson    Virginia    Episcopalian (Deist)
                           Benjamin Franklin    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian (Deist)
                           Button Gwinnett    Georgia    Episcopalian; Congregationalist
                           James Wilson    Pennsylvania    Episcopalian; Presbyterian
                           Joseph Hewes    North Carolina    Quaker, Episcopalian
                           George Clymer    Pennsylvania    Quaker, Episcopalian
                           Thomas McKean    Delaware    Presbyterian
                           Matthew Thornton    New Hampshire    Presbyterian
                           Abraham Clark    New Jersey    Presbyterian
                           John Hart    New Jersey    Presbyterian
                           Richard Stockton    New Jersey    Presbyterian
                           John Witherspoon    New Jersey    Presbyterian
                           William Floyd    New York    Presbyterian
                           Philip Livingston    New York    Presbyterian
                           James Smith    Pennsylvania    Presbyterian
                           George Taylor    Pennsylvania    Presbyterian
                           Benjamin Rush    Pennsylvania    Presbyterian

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                              Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              See instead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deists
                              
                              Sorry.  Your list is meaningless.  The church someone may have once attended does not indicate their actual beliefs - Deists are not Christians in any sense, any more than most Unitarian Universalists are - but you'd love to pretend that they are.
                              
                              Christians have a nasty habit of trying to bring everything under their tent - "oh, it's all one god".  No, it isn't.   It's one mess of contrary and contradictory beliefs and that makes it ludicrous to insist that we have a "Christian foundation".

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                                 ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Are you being serious with this post?  So, basically your rebuttal is Wikipedia said so.  LOL. Sorry, but the United States was built on a foundation of Christianity no matter how much you try to deny it. If you deny it enough it might come true.
                                 
                                 Here, I will use your own pathetic source:
                                 
                                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism
                                 
                                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism
                                 
                                 I think I just got sick a little from doing that.
                                 
                                 Like I said, you already have your mind made up.  Ignore history, it's in the past.

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                                    Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Oh my. 
                                    
                                    I give up.   We are a Christian nation.  What church should we join to make you the most happy?

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                                       ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       I never said we are a Christian Nation.  I said we are a Constitutional Republic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkOcFVBoA-o
                                       based on a Christian Foundation.  You don't have to join any church, that's why originally posted this:
                                       
                                       We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

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                        Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        "Lastly, it's no secret that there was a strong Christian foundation behind the establishment of the United States. "
                        
                        No, you've used true data to reach an erroneous conclusion.
                        
                        While its true that the founders were Christians of one kind or another, (and with varying degrees of devoutness, orthodoxy, and heresy, rather like folks today) it's also true that they deliberately did not give Christianity any privileged status, nor did they even acknowledge its existence, in the Constitution. In fact, they made it clear that there would be no established church, and that the people's would not be stopped from worshipping (or not) according to their own conscience.
                        
                        This whole "Christian Nation" movement is based on distortions and falsehoods, and I'm beginning to think that those distortions and falsehoods are not mere errors of understanding or differences of opinion, but deliberate distortions and falsehoods, designed to give Christianity some kind of privileged status at the expense of every kind of non-Christian, and of every non-orthodox* Christian.
                        
                        This is insidious, tyrannical, and a vile perversion of the intent of the founders (whom the members of the Christian Nation Movement claim to respect and value).
                        
                        Pcunix may have made up his mind, but at least he's not making up facts to suit his argument.
                        
                        *That is, small-O orthodox, meaning 'mainstream,' not the big-O Orthodox Church descended from the church of the Byzantine Empire.

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                           ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           There is no erroneous conclusion, which is further supported by your indistinguishable contradiction:
                           
                           "We were founded by Christians, yes, and we have a Christian majority, yes. But we do not have a Christian foundation"
                           
                           So, we were founded by Christians, but have no Christian foundation?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
                           
                           Lastly I made no reference to any, "Christian Nation" movement (sic)
                           or any "privileged status"
                           
                           I specifically stated that the United States is a Constitutional Republic with the freedom to choose whatever religion one wants, or none at all.

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                              Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              You - specifically - said:
                              
                              We are a Constitutional Republic , with a Christian foundation.Not a Christian Nation.  People are free to practice whatever religion they like.
                              
                              The foundation was mixed.   Christians, Deists, atheists and agnostics.  All very aware of the dangers of state sponsored religion.
                              
                              NOT A CHRISTIAN FOUNDATION.

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                                 ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Exactly right I specifically said that.
                                 
                                 We are a Constitutional Republic , with a Christian foundation.Not a Christian Nation.  People are free to practice whatever religion they like.
                                 
                                 You're going in circles man, believe what you want.  History says we were founded by Christians who created a Constitutional Republic.  Therefore, founded ie. a Christian Foundation, no matter how much you disagree it won't change history.

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                                    Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    History says we were founded by Christians of varying and opposed faiths, Deists, atheists and agnostics.
                                    
                                    That's not a "Christian foundatuin" no matter how much you need it to be.

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                                       ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       The irony of this statement is beyond reproach.  Lastly, you shouldn't quote someone incorrectly.  That defeats the purpose of quotes.

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                                          Pcunixposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          You keep saying that, but I did not quote you incorrectly.
                                          
                                          Wishing doesn't make it so - just like your Christian foundation nonsense.

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                                             ediggityposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             You quoted me incorrectly, because you misspelled what I wrote.  Conversing with you is pointless. Like I said you have your mind made up despite the facts.  Have fun.

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                              Jeff Berndtposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              "So, we were founded by Christians, but have no Christian foundation?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense."
                              
                              No, it does make sense. Bear with me for a moment.
                              
                              Suppose I'm a scientist. Suppose further that I'm a member of a group who happen also to be scientists. Some of us are geologists, some are biologists, some astronomers, some chemists, etc. Now suppose we want to found an organization, say a Community Theater, and we want to make sure that not only scientists like ourselves, but also people who study "soft sciences," like sociology and anthropology, as well as nonscientists, will feel welcome in our community theater group.
                              
                              We would be a group of scientists, but we would not be founding our organization on scientific principles.
                              
                              And that's exactly what the founders, who were (most of them) Christians, did when they created the constitution. They wanted to create a nation where not only Christians like themselves, but also unorthodox Christians, non-Christians, and even non-believers, would be welcome, and treated as equal under the law.
                              
                              That's why no reference to Christianity, Christians, or Christ is in the Constitution (unless you count the date stamp, which is written in the formal style of the time). They made sure that faith (or lack thereof) would not be a criteria for holding public office (even though many people seem now to want it to be). They made sure no faith, or denomination thereof, would ever be the preferred one (though certain members of the majority faith are trying to carve out a privileged status for their faith).
                              
                              "Lastly I made no reference to any, "Christian Nation" movement (sic)
                              or any "privileged status""
                              No, you didn't, and I didn't mean to imply that you did. Sorry if it came across that way.
                              
                              What you did claim, though, was that the US has a Christian foundation, which is not the same thing as "the US was founded by (mostly) Christians." See the distinction? Just like my hypothetical community theater can be founded by scientists, but not have a scientific foundation.
                              
                              So, finally, let me ask you this: upon what evidence do you base your conclusion that the US has a Christian Foundation? I ask with a friendly and respectful tone, to be clear, and am not baiting. I really want to know why you believe the US has a Christian foundation. I've explained why I don't think so. I'd like to hear your argument.

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                           dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           very well said Jeff, spot on.

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      Anesidoraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Christian foundation? No, I don't think so. A christian background, I would agree, but not a christian foundation.

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   exorterposted 14 years ago

   we are not a Christian Nation, just because some one goes to church does not make them Christians, The tares will grow with the wheat,
   Christians are a minority in the U.S.
   It is easy to take the talk.
   But walking the walk is another thing in itself

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      Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      USA is a Christian nation by attitude and by number of members and public office leaders.
      
      The Government and the constitution is science base as the god word is not written in the constitution

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   Onusonusposted 14 years ago

   One of the most influential aspects of American tradition that shapes our thinking is the concept of Freedom of religion. Historically speaking, the only group which has made this trend popular are the Masons. However the fact remains that this country was first settled by seekers of freedom of religious oppression by the English. Those first settlers were all different denominations of Christianity.     
   
   Always trying to re-write history......

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      Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Columbus was the first European to bring piracy, slavery, Christianity and the gold rush.
      
      The Mayflower Compact was the basis for a Christian nation based upon Biblical precepts and founded upon a covenant relationship with God.
      
      The creation of the United States of America involved a significant number of Freemasons, George Washington most prominent among them. One symbol is the cross and bone society
      
      What will they evolved to next

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