All types of churches, not just catholic. There are heaps of ministers/pastors/evangelists/elders etc that have had scandals such as:
homosexuality (despite stance against)
Sometimes the leader is stood down; often everything is swept under the carpet.
Do they think they are immune to these kinds of things because they think they are so pious?
Look at it the other way - if they were farm workers or merchant seamen it wouldn't be a scandal
(edit - except with minors of course)
I think so too.
They are highlighted and sensationalized as they are supposed to be perfect people according to them,..
it's a scandal, because it's hypocritical to the beliefs they preach
Some charismatic preachers are endowed with the secret combination to the lady’s virtues, giving them an unfair advantage.
Another question from left field...How many religious leaders are convinced that the act of publicly denouncing minor rape, they are actually helping themselves become closer to the god that allowed them to rape little boy's and occasionally girls.
It would be good to share what the percentage is, rather than lump so many together like there are a lot, here.
The people that do these things, are very much hypocritical and going against their belief system to do so. Unfortunately, it is becoming more common these days to judge a religion by its "heretics". If you are judging the poor actions say of a person that is involved in a sex scandal, you would in effect be agreeing with the teachings of Jesus (as a for instance.) In that case, Jesus has some harsh words for people like that.
It is best for us to judge fairly if we are judging at all. I wonder if atheists and other skeptics realize how often they actually support the worldviews the are supposedly against by reading threads like these. There is much more going on, and good thinking and reasoning and judgements and logic are critical to us all knowing what the truth is about these matters.
Judge the act, and know what the religion and prophet teaches, or else you are judging it falsely. Otherwise, often one is actually agreeing with the thing they are trying to put down. I find that highly ironic and telling.
But in most cases, we're not judging them for having homosexual sex or whatever, we're judging them for being hypocrites about it.
The main exceptions are pedophilia and adultery, and even adultery can be a bit questionable because you don't necessarily know if the cheater has an open marriage or some other tacit understanding with his/her spouse that one or both is free to fool around. In cases where the adultery is obviously devastating to the cheated-on spouse, we're judging them about that, not necessarily about the adultery per se.
Sexually repressive societies/communities tend to have high rates of sexual deviancy because it encourages people to act out their urges in unhealthy ways, such as seeking out prostitutes and people (such as children) who can be easily threatened and manipulated into keeping quiet.
Child prostitution rates were off the charts in the Victorian era, for example, and in many modern conservative Muslim and Hindu cultures "eve teasing" is a serious problem because young men are given no healthy outlet for their sexual urges and are raised to think of women as objects for the gratification of men.
Paraglider and PDH have a good answer, but I agree with Kerry more. It's not natural for humans to be chaste. It might be admirable, it might bring you closer to god, but it's not natural, and this leads to repression. Once you start repressing such a powerful drive as your sexuality, dark things start happening in your mind.
Hey Bailey, there is a simple answer to your question....
They each try to follow their religious doctrine and fail.
Doctrine #2) Oppress desires- which is undefined on how to do and what desires are to be oppressed. So, they oppress all of them, as much as possible(within human capability).
This is a prime example of how their "god" requests/demands obedience and how false the doctrines truly are with regards to a human being existence.
Hence, proving that no god in it's right mind would inspire such writing.
If I can remember correctly, the OP stated, all churches. I take that to mean atheisits (places of worship) also.
Now, ain't that a spin. What would happen if they failed to follow their doctrine?
But Cag, you are correct, He doesn't inspire most of the doctrine that is in most of the churches today. You and I know that. Just like you and I know that a large percent of it is required by our gov in order for that "church" to obtain their exempt status. Called something like by-laws.
The trouble with that is, in a short answer, the church is required by the gov to adopt a set of by-laws, AND to follow them. Thus, many churches when setting these by-laws inadvertently also adopt these by-laws as part of their doctrine. That in itself is one of the major problems.
Christians are not at liberty to break any law of the land, UNTIL it crosses or goes against His Law.
I've been in several churches, and their by-laws are hanging up for all to see. Some churches adopt fairly sensible by-laws, others, are far-fetched. But we can't place the blame on God. Well, not rightfully anyway.
As I am not atheist, I have no clue if they do or do not have "places of worship".
I just assume, like any other religion, they too had a gathering place.
From my observance, atheists seem to worship themselves. I mean no harm by stating this, but it's what I read in some of their messages.
Do you have to worship something?
Can you just like it?
Or come to worse love it?
Hi Home Girl, None of us have to worship anything. In God's holy word, it states to worship him and, the only true living God. I love to worship him for he is worthy of our praise and worship. If it were not for God, none of us would be here today.
why does anyone have to worship anything? I trust my own mind now rather than believing the rot I was indoctinated with.
I do not worship myself or anything else
So where is one of these atheist places of worship? I have been to many places of worship in my life and have never seen an atheist place of worship, if one should exist my curiosity would get me to visit at least once
Heck I would like to hear one atheist sermon!
You are joking right? Atheist do not have places of worship. You must be confused.
Doctrine only exist in Christian(and all other sister religions), Islam, Muslim and the alike. Atheism isn't organized enough to create doctrines.
The problem with what you said is that you won't find anyone in "religion" to admit that the books they follow are not all inspired by a 'god'.
Not when you're talking about what is written in any of the books. By-laws are written outside of religious text/doctrine.
This statement is filled with a distortionists view- because Christians and anyone else following the doctrines, never mind, Laws or By-Laws, have trouble following them because each of the doctrines as I have laid out before in the forums are against human nature and unattainable by humans. Thus, making the doctrines inspired by whatever god false.
You don't place the blame on a god and neither do I. I simply say that since the doctrines are false and not inspired by a god, then it is apparent that there is no god.
But, thank you for your time.
I think it's some of what Para said and some of what Cags said, and I would add that there are several reasons why being part of a religious order might appeal to a person whose biological (or psychological) urges preclude them from success in mainstream society. One is a place to seek safety from those unhealthy urges, hoping to find a way to escape doing harm in the auspices of a church and protection of God... which clearly often fails. The opposite also holds true, in that for some the trust placed upon those officials is a prime place to both hide and launch predatory attacks from safety and with great access... and we have no way of knowing how many of those FIND god and so do not act on their original intent. Let's hope it's more than I suspect.
Please keep in mind, athesism is also considered a religion.
While atheism is a belief system not an organization with rituals, priest or shamans granting access to the supernatural, and all the rest of the elements widely understood to define religion, I am aware of the arguments making the case that atheism is a religion include observation of people devoted to the belief with the same 100% certainty of people believing in God, and who perform almost ritual argumentation against religion. In that, I can understand where you are coming from.
However, despite this generous widening of the definition of "religion" to allow for a sort of quasi-religious status of some atheist's behavior, atheism is not remotely the same sort of animal as organized religion as the world has known them for thousands of years. To pretend otherwise would be absurd.
No sex offenders are seeking out the Order of the Unbeliever at the Atheist Monastery in hopes of riding out and finding relief from (or access for) sexual deviancy.
Atheism is not a belief, it is a conviction.
yawn... the roman catholic church is by far the worst offender when i was but a teen i recall similar scandals of the roman catholic priests.. so again i will clarify since others seem reluctant too make the distinguishment: Catholics are NOT christians. They have as much connection to God as an earthworm, notta, nil, zilch, zero. So it is no wonder or amazing thing that they continue to fail and fail big time. The spirit of God is no where near them.
AS for others who have "dropped the ball" so to speak, these things do happen. I recall King david when he lusted after bathsheba and had her husband fight on the front lines (where death is imminent) then he married her. This transgression stayed with David all his life... God said, you are a man of blood and shall not build my house... Some transgressions people cannot undo and God visits their iniquity upon their heads.. he deals justly with them.
Human lust is the hardest to overcome, there is always one woman who is built just so fine that she turns the head of any body weaked linked to christ. All through the bible what is the dominant sin.. unbelief... besides that... sexual sins. Sex is of the flesh and appeals to flesh. (I am gonna ask god why he gave women breasts 24/7 when just when lactating is sufficient) but when god creates he creates well, its just his habit -ficticious devil aside - The good thing about God is he always has compassion on a sincere heart especially one that is full of repentance. He will judge our huge sins but never leave us nor forsake us.
Being in the vine continually is a good way to walk in the spirit, so we will not obey the lusts of the flesh.
Here in also God did know the law is unjust... God asks a happily married person NOT to commit adultery as equally as He asks an unmarried person the same question. He asks a billionaire not to steal and the poor and starving too. This is why God is merciful, he knows our weaknesses.
it's not just the catholics - there's pentecostals, anglicans and others.
"being in the vine & walking in the spirit" doesn't stop pentecostal leaders from seeing prostitutes, having affairs, abusing children etc
Bailey, it is not the Creators doing. People are just that. They are human. Everybody makes mistakes, some more severe than others.
The problem is, He, gets the blame.
Here is a example I use when talking with my son, I hope it helps you.
There is a battle being fought for our "souls" every second of every day. There are two opposing sides. One good, one evil. The road of life, is one traveled by everybody. In this road are many forks, turnoffs, lane shifts, and here is the key, The Creator, Promised He would always be by our sides, but He would never force us to take His "lane of traffic". At some point in time, we veer off the main road, do this or that, have a little fun, or for some, do some pretty bad things. Some even hurt other people. BUT then, back on the main road awaits Who? He is there waiting, and hoping, but when we do find our way back to the main road, He is there, ready to walk with us as we travel that road.
Bad things, hurtful things, they are going to happen. Most often the Creator is the one to get the blame because one of someones elses actions.
The same holds true for the anti-christ.
another evangelical that bit the dust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard
the homosexual prostitute exposed him after 3 years because of the hypocrisy of what he preached
apparently Ted Haggart is now "free of his homosexual compulsions" and was starting a new church.
Hmmm, a bit like Pat Meisti, another evangelist that was visiting prostitutes.
Guess the money is too much to let go
"hypocrisy that he preached"
What does that mean? No preacher preaches hypocrisy!
They (are supposed to) preach the Truth. Breaking fidelity with the truth is "hypocrisy".
Does that negate the truth?. . . . Not in my book!
The very fact that these preachers break the "rules" that they preach, demonstrates that there is INDEED a truth "out there"!
What upsets me about these con-artists is they are hypocrites eg oppress other people eg homosexuals and then they are secretely doing what they preach against.
Or they preach against theft and then rip people off and commit fraud etc.
So which is right and which is wrong?
Preaching, or stealing?
Declaring a moral standard, or breaking it?
Suppose they did not preach against stealing, and stole. That would still be wrong. They'd just avoid being called a hypocrite.
Because they are just human and people like the rest of us, but they are trying to live up to an impossible standard and of course when they fall it's just that much more terrible.
they're deluded that they can be someone they're not with their invisible being eg be free from the "sin" of homosexually & convince the masses likewise
Yes well. homosexuality is not a problem here.
People who have homosexual tendancies may not have been preached to that they need to surrender that part of their life to God and allow God to change it. People who have these ungodly desires, biblically are not allowed to obtain a ministry. So often in churches people vote as to who goes overseas or a split occurs and a new pastor is needed. Instead of God being at the helm, the people make the choice. God may indeed be dealing with a homosexual tendency (why i do not know, that kinda stuff makes me squeemish) but the people have voted him or her i suppose to be the new pastor because everybody likes him or her, not because that through the laying on of hands, god elected him not her. Sometimes 'head office' send pastors to churches. A local church went through 3 pastors before the congregation said, "we will have this one". ooopsie not quite according to scripture.
There are a number of reasons why people fail. Another popular reason is they get out of their chosen ministry. Take jimmy swaggart for example. His music is/was so very annointed and he was called to evangelize. Just to evangelize and sing, nothing else... then he gets into revelations and puts out a book and then he has healing going on and then he gets sermons and becomes a preacher outside of evangelism. Pride got to his head and we all know, proverbs says, pride cometh before a fall. If jimmy had of stuck to just what he was supposed to do a different outcome would have happened because God would have been in the work and not jimmies flesh (no pun intended)
So you see there are many reasons why, but as i said the main reason is not being in the vine. Not submitting to the teachings of God not passing the tests and then being promoted by man before their time. Many great leaders, joshua for example waited 80yrs before he led the people across jordan into the promised land. Joseph of egypt spent 2plus years in jail for a crime he didn't commit. Patience and contentment are valuable sidekicks.
Lets not forget money. 10,000 people at 1 dollar a piece is 40,000 a month a half million dollars a year. If this doesn't puff a person up then nothing will. Jesus only had 120 disciples at the finish of his 3.5 yr ministry. Size was not important and did not happen because jesus taught a harsh word. He taught the truth and he mentioned sin and he spoke out against wrongness, reproved works of darkness, told people not to love the world.. these are not messages that are prevalent today. We think oh buddies is a pentecostal or a anglican or a whatevs but let us look into what they preach. What kind of word is it? Is it an ecumenical word, joel osteen kinda word or is it a word that convicts people of their sins? If its a watered down word of gods love and god wants to bless you and prosperity then this kind of word will not keep a person in the vine.
nuff said but i could go on.
God can make you think, see, hear, feel, say any thing he wants. To everyone. Seek the path, the way is being lit.
hanging out, You are absolutely right. Once a person stray away from their chosen ministry, they will create a mess. It's always the best to remain in the will of God under his annointing. Obedience brings wonderful blessings
Amen sister. And we get called judgmental lol. Look at all the inferences the others make.
I only make one inference
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Justified means to be not guilty and when we ask forgiveness for our sins God does just that, he forgives. "Ye without sin cast the first stone"
Well, as far as sex scandals go, it probably wouldn't have been such a big deal if it had been a bevy of 21 yr olds from the corner yuppie bar. You'd think they thought everyone would recognize them in a brothel. Probably would, come to mention it. They just assumed that the Law of God didn't apply to them. Boy, are they gonna be disappointed. HA!
so people can sin all they like, be a hypocrite and tell lies to lead people astray and to abuse other people, as long as they repent. Fine religion that is.
Yeah, sort of ironic that the Catholic Church's sale of indulgences is one of the main things that caused the split with Protestantism in the first place, and now fundie Protestants are actually MORE likely than Catholics to argue that you can be an absolute monster for your entire life, but will still go to Heaven if you repent on your deathbed and accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. I think it creates an atmosphere that encourages these sorts of sex scandals, personally.
Indulgences was a huge long time ago.. get some updated information and catholic is not christian, keep reading the forums you will see it mentioned somewhere.
Nowhere does the bible say you can be a monster so long as you repent its okay.. thats just a lie.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
what happens is people who do not turn their lives over to God and allow him to change them turn out to be atheists
looks like you're not up-to-date yourself - there's plenty of excesses and indulgences in the protestant churches - those practising "prosperity doctrine" - leader has luxury cars, yacht, multimillion dollar houses etc. Plus they have all their scandals - fraud, sex etc
if you hadn't added the last sentence.. fine religion that is.. you wouldn't have judged.
and a question mark after repent would have been good too.
see, you judged. Perhaps now you have a better understanding of what judging is.
and then you went and judged me, without addressing my point.
If christianity has any backbone, it should be able to stand up to scrutiny.
So point is, I think it's wrong how people in leadership positions in church tell others how to be moral, and then secretely have sex with prostitutes/have homosexual sex/abuse children, then repent each week ready to "praise and worship" God and pretend to be a shining example of a christian
Goddunit.. lol.. Goddunit.
He did to, eh. lol.
yah and yknow what.. this excellent post will just get forgotten about as quickly as it is read. The higher morality doesn't allow those who have it to acknowledge a good point or even to 1/2 agree that maybe their idea has been shot down. lol. They just skip over it and carry on as though it was never said and their ridiculous idea never had any holes in it.
This is living in truth that is higher than Gods morals.
Would that be these doctrines?
Here is how it starts.
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