Is God an alien?

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   Derrikposted 16 years ago

   This whole section of the forums here is riddled with such strong emotions.  I am not REALLY suggesting that God is an alien.  Although, honestly, I have actually pondered that very notion.  The real point is that every religious group on the planet (Christianity included- it IS a religion...) has their own beliefs, and proofs, about who and what God is.  Most of the religions of the world actually are very active in evangelism as well, spreading their versions of the truth to those around them.  And most faiths believe they are following the truth, and they believe it every bit as strongly as any other faith.  (Take Islam for example- they literally kill themselves to slaughter as many of their enemies as they can in the process, they REALLY believe they are going to get their 70 virgins after they die.) 
   
   Now- I apologize for any arrogant tones in previous posts in the religion section, I promise to try to clean it up a little. 
   
   So- what I want to know, is where is God right now?  I have been told my whole life that He is right here controlling everything, and the arguments are interesting.  They span from things like "God is here today, think of the 6 day war Israel had back when, and think of all the other miraculous times they have won battles being impossibly outnumbered..." to other explanations like, "The Earth is spinning on it's axis at a very specific angle, one or two feet of difference would devastate the planet, and our orbit around the sun is critical, the moon's orbit around us is critical, God is still here holding it all in place." 
   
   But if God is here, if He knows what is going on, if He loves me, if He truly wants me to follow Him, why doesn't He reveal Himself?  If He is Omnipotent and all knowing like everyone says, then it would be nothing, for Him to reveal Himself- just appear in my room and tell me what He wants me to do.  But all I have to prove He even exists is a book with numerous errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions.  Where is the real proof?  Maybe God was an alien, and He is visiting some other world right now.  Visiting a barren planet depositing microbes maybe?  (Ok, maybe none of that, but where is He?)

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      mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      The real proof is in the experience called enlightenment.
      Who is the foreigner,who is the alien?
      We are One in your plain.
      
      When do I see,meet God?
      Whenever you reall decide to.When you want nothing.

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      mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I have seen a UFO and also come across an entity which may have been an alien.All is God including the alien.The source of all is God.

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      angel 0 zenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Questioning the concept upon "God", it goes back to questioning my own deeper self.
      Sometimes i have to completely abandon my own thoughts or my own mind. And let my true self witness the unfolding of my own mind.
      From deep within we can able to distinguish & identify what is god.
      The irony of my own experience is that it appears that the air that passes through my nostril & goes through the lungs is much more important than the concept about god.

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         mightyoneposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         When you were 3 years old could you teach your parents what to do?  Even if you had the worse parents you couldn't.  My point is we cannot as humans understand why God is doing something.  We haven't figured out how to live forever, so it's best to not question that.
         
         And to say a "book" with inconsistencies and errors let's guys like me know you simply haven't read your book.
         
         And I will focus on "so-called Christianity" in that what we see is not real.  You have a valid post because people do talk about God talk about his like a fairytale; but then you also are guilty and might have question your search and quest to seek Him (sounds like you gave up).
         
         God is not here.  Everyone that says that, say that with metaphoric stance that He's everywhere; God is where the book said He is until an appointed time.  In Heaven sitting on the Throne (the right hand of Strength), till He makes His enemies His foot stool.
         
         If you simple find someone who can read the bible with understanding and you just listen to them - you may find Him.  Not to boast; but someone like me.
         
         Mighty
         
         

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            sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            That seems to be the problem with the book.  It says God is in everything and everywhere, and also in Heaven. 
            
            

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   RFoxposted 16 years ago

   God is irrelevant.
   A distraction on the path to enlightenment. Just my humble opinion.

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      Derrikposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      RFox-
           I wouldn't say God is irrelevant, God may exist.  Just not in the way we believe.  (What the heck did that mean?  Hah!)  Anyway, what is enlightenment? Is it really hard to attain?  Is it religious?  Or spiritual?  Are you enlightened enough to survive a skirmish against me in ChromeHounds on Xbox Live??  BRING IT!!!

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      mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Enlightenment is coming across God. All paths lead to enlightenment.Enlightenment is in-light or in -God.

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   Paragliderposted 16 years ago

   Derrik - I see you hold a very balanced view of the relative merits of Islam and Judaism! Do you live in USA, by any chance?

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      Derrikposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Paraglider-
           I do live in USA- Minnesota.  At present.  Actually, I was originally a Christian, until October, 2000.  Then a friend left church and joined a rather strange group.  He just nagged me over and over to go, so finally I did but not because I was interested.  I wanted the guy off my back.  I suppose that I underestimated what I would find and had my guard down, but I still put up a hell of a fight.  I used EVERY PASSAGE of scripture I had in my arsenal.  But this guy, the leader of the group, just kept "disarming" me.  He told me over and over what flaws my interpretations had and what his interpretations were, and why.  He was very, "calm" throughout the entire "battle of scripture" we had.  There were even two passages I used against him, and instead of telling me what the right interpretation was, he simply asked me a few Questions.  Who is speaking?  "Paul" I said.  Who was being spoken to?  "The Corinthians".  Which Corinthians, he said, All of them or a specific group?  That got me thinking, and it was obviously converted Corinthians.  Then came the final question that did it- he asked me what these Corinthians had converted to.    That was this guy's whole goal- to get me to see that I was looking at scripture from the wrong perspective, the perspective I was TAUGHT to see it, a Christian perspective.  Christianity was not around yet, and even though Jesus had already been crucified and supposedly resurrected, Everyone in the N.T. who mattered was still practicing JUDAISM!!  In Acts 15 there is a major meeting and James, the brother of Jesus (full or half is not really the point- He inherited position upon Jesus' death) was the leader of this council.  And Paul, as well as a number of other individuals, was UNDER his leadership.  Paul was required to report to this council in Jerusalem on a regular basis.  But a large group of people were at this meeting discussing Gentile converts, who were having a lot of difficulty following the law.  So according to the passage, James finally issues that the Gentiles only have to follow 4 specific laws, laws that need to be adhered to to enter a synagogue and hear the law of Moses read every sabbath, or 7th day.
      
      Anyway- there is plenty more to tell.  But this information got me thinking very hard about what I believed and why.  It was now clear to me that the law was still supposed to be followed after Jesus was gone, at the very least by the Jews.  And today, do "Christians" (Originally the gentile converts to Judaism) keep those 4 laws?  Nope.  Ironically they believe that Jesus either did away with the law, or released them from it.  But why were James, Peter, John, and all of those people still following Judaism after Jesus was already gone, if Jesus had released us from it?  Why did James want Gentile converts to keep those 4 laws only, but still have them go to Synagogue every sabbath??  To learn to keep the whole law, but at their own pace.  Every sabbath they learned a little more about the law, and they applied it as they learned it.  It was much easier then having strict Jews force 613 commands upon them in one night after they converted.  That is a liberal interpretation, given the actual writings in James 15- but it is logical, and makes sense given what is written, and most of all, I have heard no better interpretation of those events.  (Given the context of the passage.)
      
      Anyway, later I discovered many inconsistencies, and contradictions, and even the Virgin Birth itself is very hard to accept when you read the Immanuel passage, Isaiah 7:14, in the context of the entire chapter.  So today, I do not really know what I believe.  It seems to me that I cannot give up on there being a creator of the universe, modern science is just too ignorant  with all it's theorizing and assumption.  The Big Bang is actually taught in schools- as FACT!  What a crock.  The truth is we have no idea how everything began- not any provable idea.  When will modern science make progress, and move beyond theory and fabrication?  May be a long time.

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         Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Derrik - I challenged you over some careless remarks and you responded politely. I respect that. So let me try to answer in kind.
         
         The Big Bang is not taught as FACT. Science is hypothesis. Hypothesis must be presented in falsifiable form. This means that a theory must be bold. It must say - Maybe this is true - If this is true - then this and this and this consequence are inevitable - Therefore, if this consequence is demonstrated not to occur, the theory MUST be false. In other words, Science is the best guess available - the one that so far has not been disproved.
         
         The most famous example of this is Einstein's General Relativity. This talked about curvature of space. It predicted things that were not measurable at the time. However, one of its predictions was "the perihelion of Mercury" - Einstein's theory said that when Mercury, the Sun and the Earth were in a certain juxtaposition, the reflected light form Mercury would appear deflected, owing to the curvature of space round the massive Sun. Many years passed before the relative positions of the three bodies allowed for this to be measured, but when the time came, Einstein's prediction was validated.
         
         This does not mean that his theory was proven true, It simply means that it has still not been proven false. That is Science. Science is "That which has been presented as falsifiable hypothethis and which has not yet been falsified" Newton presented his theories as falsifiable statements, and it took about 250 years to prove them false. However, they are false only in extremis as you approach the speed of light. So they are still pretty useful here on Earth.
         
         Now, the problem is that schoolchildren, for the most part, do not have the intellectual sophistication to embrace the 'Criterion of Falsifiability'. It took a genius (Karl Popper) to recognise and describe this principle at work. It sounds easy, but it's not intuitive in a world where people talk about 'proof'.
         
         The biggest difference between Science and non-Science (which includes religion, politics, etc) is that Science is falsifiable. Religion is not, because it is not presented as falsifiable hypotheses. It is presented as Facts to believe!  Science does not require faith, or belief. Religion does.
         
         Bertrand Russell (who predeceased Karl Popper) said " I do not believe in belief". He was getting there. But he still was fooled, as we all were, by the Francis Bacon idea that Science was based on induction. David Hume destroyed induction, simply by saying that hundreds of instances of the sun rising in the morning do not prove that it will rise tomorrow. The laws of Physics might suddenly change!  But Popper showed that induction had always been a blind alley. He showed that Falsifiability, not Proof, is the key to advancement of knowledge. Read the man!

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   weblogposted 16 years ago

   I think this page is relevant to this topic and it's interesting...
   Erich von Daniken

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      Inspirepubposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Stargate
      
      lol
      
      Jenny
      
      P.S. In answer to Derrik's question, I think God is bit less theatrical than the Bible stories make out. For example, paramedics regularly bring people "back from the dead" via CPR these days - aka "the breath of life". This would have been considered miraculous or possibly even witchcraft just 300 years ago.
      
      I grew 2 inches in my mid-30s after a miraculous healing experience. I don't think it was supernatural, though. It seemed perfectly natural to me. In that sense, "God" is everywhere. Just not wearing a red cape and saying "look, nothing up my sleeve ..."

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   sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

   I think about that a lot.  Sometimes I fart around thinking maybe a long time ago there were people just like us but they called them selfs Gods instead of human, and they somehow became so advnaced that they build the first space ship and left Earth and they wanted to experiment, so they wrote these books, placed them everywhere for people to find, started naming things and said they would be back to check on us later after they found a new place to inhabit, aka. Heaven, and they will come back just before the world is destroyed again and bring 144000 people with them, not for any particular reason other than they fit in the space ship. 
   So they told whoever wants to go that they would be back during such and such a time because the while they are traveling the Universe the only way to get back is to come through a wormhole of sorts and doing so disrupts the Earth and the Moon and stuff, so there are earthquakes etc...
   
   So they chose a mountain that was big enough to hold 14000 people and said meet us there.  And then while out traveling they came accross some magical star dust on the planet *&^*) and made it possible to bring everyone back to life on the new Heaven planet. 
   
     hahah.

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   Derrikposted 16 years ago

   Was that a book??  I wrote a book!  An E-book!  Woohoooo!!

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   guidebabaposted 16 years ago

   Is God an alien? Sounds like a "Fiction Topic".

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   Inspirepubposted 16 years ago

   Derrick,
   
   It sounds as though you have been disillusioned (as in dis-illusioned) about the absolute truth of the Bible and the accuracy of the interpretations as made by modern-day Christians.
   
   This is a good start.
   
   The truth (if there is any such thing) is that the nature of God simply cannot be properly perceived by a human being, because of the limitations inherent in being human. We see "through a glass, darkly", and only after we die shall we "see face to face".
   
   Real spiritual experiences cannot be reduced to words.
   
   Sets of rules and commandments have nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with politics and social control. If you try to find spiritual truth by sifting through lists of rules you will quickly go insane.
   
   The Protestant movement started out as a protest against the Catholic Church placing itself between people and God as a mediator. The Protestants believed that each individual could and should have their own personal relationship with God.
   
   Following the rules laid out by some organisation is not the way to have a personal relationship with God.
   
   Sadly, the Protestant Churches have become just as bad the the Catholic Church they were protesting against.
   
   If you would like a simple guide in words, to help you find your way to the personal relationship with God, let it be this:
   
   God is Love.
   Perfect Love casteth out Fear.
   
   In every moment, check in with yourself. Do you feel fear? (Remember that anger, pride, envy, greed, and many other negative emotions are based in fear - it wears many faces.)
   
   Ask yourself, "what would Love do?"
   
   You will know that you have found God within when you relax, and have an overwhelming sense of peace about a particular course of action.
   
   Most of us live most of our lives in a state of permanent and crippling fear, so it may take some practice to get in touch with the Eternal Love within. If you had a particularly bad childhood, a good therapist may be part of your path, too.
   
   Stop looking outside yourself for answers. The Kingdom of Heaven is within.
   
   Good luck!
   
   Jenny

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      Derrikposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Jenny-
          I cannot look within.  There is no mystical or spiritual connection, no presence of God inside for me to confide in.  Why would a God who loves us and wants to commune with us, and wants us to commune with Him, make it so difficult to believe?  Why would He try so hard to conceal Himself in such a way? 
      
      Now about fear.  As for the childhood issues, I didn't have anything like that growing up.  I was raised in a Christian home, the only thing I feared was my dad's belt when I knew I screwed up.  As for today, financial worries are the worst fear I have today and they are very minor.  (Those particular fears or worries are minor.)  Although I have debt and wonder about next month's $440 rent, it is not enough to worry about.  If I lost everything I have, (which is not much) it would be a drag, but I feel that being afraid of those issues is not worth it, I will survive.  That is my whole mode of thinking, I will survive.  If worst came to worst I will still, for the vast most part, not be afraid or have hardly any fear. 
      
      About what I am capable of perceiving, that is another matter.  I hold a different view, because I am very imaginative and creative.  I cannot EXPERIENCE omnipotence, but I comprehend it just fine.  Who ever said that we cannot comprehend or understand anything greater than ourselves?  But to truly understand something, to truly comprehend, we have to study, learn, and we have to examine something.  Since we cannot do any of those things where God is concerned, due to Him not being around, there you go. 
      
      But most of all, I am physical, not spiritual.  I cannot look at the spiritual because I do not have an accurate understanding, just a bunch of ghost stories, fiction and nonsense.  So, since it is an unattainable knowledge, until I get sucked through some extra dimensional portal to the spiritual realm, I will never understand it.  BUT- I am physical, I comprehend the physical, and everything I experience is in the physical, and with the physical, comes the literal, the provable, with being physical we have guides to help us through, like science, biology, physics and chemistry. 
      
      Without proof, faith is blind.  For everything that is, there is a reason.  A cause.  Fire, gravity, lightning, cars driving, engines failing, everything has explanation, a reason why.  We are only human, and yes, limited.  But we can learn why.  We just need to study the circumstances.  Why is our gravity the way it is?  First we need to understand what it is, and the causes will come with study.  But without the ability to study, because of a total lack of presence, we cannot learn, we can only choose to accept blindly, or to reject until it is proven.  The big problem I have with the idea of God, is that the general consensus is that He is all power, He is all knowledge, He is omnipresent.  But if all that is true then why is He nowhere to be found?  If He wants us to follow Him, if He really cares, I think He would reveal Himself.  There is not reason why He would not, unless He is not.  And Jesus?  He is out of the question.  The only proof-text for the Virgin Birth dismisses Jesus from the equation.  35 years I've given to God- and got nothing in return.  And I was dedicated.  It was not until I persevered in the study of the only proof I did have, the bible, that I realized the truth, there is no spoon!

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         Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         "If worst came to worst I will still, for the vast most part, not be afraid or have hardly any fear"
         
         That is enlightenment in my book bro.
         
         Welcome, to the real world.

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         mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Why would a God who loves us and wants to commune with us, and wants us to commune with Him, make it so difficult to believe? 
         This is what is called the cosmic joke.You are God.
         You are playing this game with yoursellf.

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   knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

   Paraglider great statement on the 'Criterion of Falsifiability'. Trouble is who ever heard of it. All pseudo science from the Big Bang, Black Holes, Evolution, curved space is taught as fact. Many a scientist has stated that they cannot comment on controversial theories for fear of losing their credibiltiy and thus all funding. Every astonomer on Nova or whatever says exactly the same thing verbatim, like they were programed, concerning the Big Bang. And I for myself am sure that they are. Thus the 'Criterion of Falsifiability' is a great concept. Too bad I never heard a single scientist in my history ever use the term.

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      Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Who has heard of the Criterion of Falsifiability? Every serious scientist, epistemologist and scientific philosopher since Karl Popper first published it in (around) 1930, in The Logic of Scientific Discovery. Every scientific theory must be formulated to be refutable. The Criterion is, in fact, the single distinction between science and non-science. Popper did not say that non-science is nonsense, merely that it does not have the same status as science. He also demonstrated that science has not been proven true - rather it is that which has not yet been proven false.
      
      As an aside, Popper famously cited the work of Karl Marx and of Sigmund Freud as examples of non-science.
      
      It's an unfortunate fact that school curricula do not include the philosophy of science. The reason in Europe is probably that there is just too much else to cram in. In the US, there is the additional problem of pandering to the religious right.

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    sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

    Hi Derrik,  I like to explain what spirit is, as the that part inside that seeks something, it's the missing thing that you feel inside, or the before thought.  Or just who you are, example.  I like to blasphemy because I don't care about what other people think, but I still believe in God, just not the way people say, and I wont change because I don't have to, I know myself better and believe God knows me too, so wherever God is doesn't really matter.
    
    So pick something that makes you happy!  As religous as I come off sounding a lot of the time, I am not a christian, I am not anything really, just me and have my own beliefs and I hate when people say you can't or your wrong or that is not God, when really I am think, shut the heck up, you don't know what your talking about.
    
    So if God is all loving or is Love, then learn to love yourself and give up the rest.  When you die, you die you, not someone else and so all you are is all you are so make it what you want. 
    
    I don't believe anyone goes to Hell, I don't believe anyone is perfect and I don't believe you have to believe what anyone tells you either, not even me. 

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       Derrikposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I think I got it.  You are not talking about spirituality from the Christian perspective- MY BAD!  I guess I can come across as pretty religious for someone who is not very religious.  Sometimes I can get pretty deep- but it isn't personal, just deep involvement in the topic!  And I have to admit, I kinda feel bitter at Christianity for wasting so many years of my life, all my best years too.  I could have spent all that time studying about the internet and made alot of dough by now!  Ha!  Talk to ya next time Sandra   ;{D

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    Inspirepubposted 16 years ago

    I'm not a Christian either, Derrik - or any other organised religion for that matter.
    
    Although I have been dubbed the Goddess of Love by the HubPages MetaGod, so perhaps I shall start one of my own ...
    
    ... egad, no! What a horrible thought.
    
    lol
    
    Jenny

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    topstuffposted 16 years ago

    Perhaps God wants people believe him without appearing as He is Almighty,All powerful.In my view,all those  muslims who are doing suicide attacks  to kill their enemies are not just doing  to get 70 virgins.Many of them are those who are left behinded alone  losing their families,their relatives,their homes,their jobs and everything they possessed before.With this situation they try to take revenge this or that way,seeing this the one and only last solution having none in their hands.
    Peace is what everyone like,but there is a little to no struggle for its creation.May God bless us all and make this earth peaceful.

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       Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yeh topstuff, but whether those suicide bombers are making that choice for themselves or others are making it for them (which is what I think is more or less what is going on), they are still being selfish and taking the lives of innocent civilians most of whom never caused them any harm in the first place.
       
       It is not only selfish of them but quite inconsiderate of them, don't you think?

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          sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I was watching 20/20 once and they did a segment on Muslims, and showed that at a very young age they were being washed into reciting the Qu'ran, but to blame the bombers even if they believe they are making a choice doesn't really make sense when they do not know any better because they are being bread to do these things.  Who ever teaches them to hate, and disguises it with something else is the enemy. 
          
          They take innocent children and make them killers.  Sorta like breading a PitBull to fight.  Some argue that Pit bulls are born with a killer insticts.  But to be more accurate,  you can train a pit bull to be a caring house dog, and I have known many pit bulls that are just the sweetest dog. 
          
          I see it the same as humans.  We all come with the instinct to survive and it is in us to kill, but the things we are taught play a huge role in what we do.  So who can you blame?  It's it something that goes so far back the only thing that could even remotely be blamed is the thought. 
          
          However I do not in anyway condone what they do or believe that any of it is right.  It is just a very sad situation that takes it's toll on everything around them and essentially effects the whole world, whether immediatly or through something else. 
          
          I wish they would stop, but it wont stop until someone or we or whomever can find the source of such things and turn it off.  If that is even possible, I don't know. 
          
          It's like North Koreans.  I was watching some other news show, and they showed this little girl , cute as button smiling while saying, "America is my enemy."  They teach their children these things, and while I don't know all the history and stigma attached with the still technical war,  I can hardley believe that people still have it in thier minds that that sort of thinking will ever bring peace.

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             topstuffposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             I just insist on what caused that little girl to hold that playcard or whoever held in her hands,why such  hatred is developed or being developed in little minds.We have to look for the actual root cause rather playing a blame game.

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                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                I absolutly agree! 

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                   Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   The root cause of the problem is ideological totalism.  Ideological totalism (cultism) of a terrorist bent.  The word "terrorist", denotes the means that are taken at any given time to obtain the ends, so if the means include destruction of civilian life to make a point, then you end up with modern day terrorism.
                   
                   The term for the types of psyhologically co-ercive tactics used by these groups is thought reform or mind control, with sometimes hybrid techniques occuring.  They are basically high pressure co-ercive tactics that utilize group psychology to the maximum extent possible in order to facilitate indoctrination.  Thought reform is more of what the communists used and usually involved being held captive in prison and forced to confess to lengthy nonsensical things/stories that one never did in order to bring about co-operation and identity change.  People would literally be co-erced into forming (with the help of an interrogator), lengthy espionage stories that they never were a part of, which were then used to guilt trip them into accepting communism.
                   
                   Mind control on the other hand, is what is used in groups like Aum Shinrikyo or Jim Jone's group and involves lack of accountability and usually blurs the line between "deliberate" and "indeliberate", because usually in a fully bown cult vs Nazism or Communism there is not as much "distance" to deliberate.  Usually the Narcissists involved have a good intuitive grasp of what works pragmatically (what works to manipulate people). 
                   
                   Dr Robert Jay Lifton posted eight criteria for thought reform and if anyone is interested in that then there are resources available on the internet to understand those things.
                   
                   In my opinion what was incorrectly labeled in the past as "mind control"- which is a collection of social psychology tactics and high pressure techniques usually used by a Narcissist to recruit an retain followers- is what is at work with people who are fully grown adults and yet get recruited into these "terrorist" camps (what is the definition of choice?). 
                   
                   Radical indoctrination and zealoty have existed for ages and will continue to exist until the human race as a whole decides to seriously just get along (if ever). 
                   
                   In my opinion it would do muslism clerics a whole hell of a lot of good if they were explicitly taught how these co-ercive tactics work and what they could do to bring the jihadists to a less extreme form of ideology.  In my opinion this might prove to be a good thing in the long run, as where there is extreme ideology it is hard for true diplomacy to take place, (whether neo-conservative or jihadist or something else).
                   
                   This is my opinion, and you can call it whatever you like, but before you say I don't know what I am talking about I would refer ALL OF you to this:
                   
                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umsbfVh2tAE
                   
                   The above links to an extremist group that I was once affiliate with because my parents dragged me and my brothers and sisters into it as we were growing up.  This group is a real example of zealotry and I will state here that this group is going to be- and to a certain extent already has- positioning itself as the new incarnation of the Knight Templars.
                   
                   That was the funeral of the founder of the group who himself was a Narcissist and quite possibly could have had Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
                   
                   I was in this group for many many years and they ran my life in total control and as a result of trying to discern "God's will" I almost "fasted" myself to death before leaving the group.  The reason I almost "fasted" myself to death before leaving the group is because "fasting" was the method used to discern "God's will" when all else failed.  As the group was encouraging my parents to move to Ireland and "No" was not an answer that was acceptable, I naturally was expected to "Fast" until I received a "Yes" answer from "God".
                   
                   Before I got out of that group I lost 42 lbs, was emaciated and had to drink ensure for 5-7 days straight before I could put anything solid down.  I would also blackout and dissociate as well (floating), so I know what I am talking about when I say I know what motivates groups like Hamas and Al-Qaeda.  It is the same thing that motivates my former group (who are on the other side of the fence from a jihadist perspective).  Their is no bliss on earth that can compare to the utter rapture that is experienced at times in these types of groups.
                   
                   I lost my entire family because they prefer group ideology to having me as their son.
                   
                   Those groups are vicious and will cut off anyone or anything that does not yield to "the cause"
                   
                   I hope that has put my view on the palestinian situation in proper perspective.  I certainly do think that they need their own state, but when it comes to getting their own state I can only reiterate here that the END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
                   
                   As such there is no reason for them to kill, maim, indoctrinate, and torture to get their way, and the same goes for the Israelis. 
                   
                   Which is why extremism hurts legitimate diplomatic considerations, because as a zealot you are only interested in promoting every aspect of the "cause" and an ultra hardline approach to get it.
                   
                   Sincerely,
                   
                   Josh

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             Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Sandra, whether or not I lay any "moral" blame at their feet if I am the average citizen out in a place like Palestine, if I value my life and the life of my family over their ideology I will let my sidearm do the "blaming", before they blow up my entire family in the local marketplace (should I see one running and somehow get a beat on him).
             
             Blame is guilt, pure and simple, and if they cannot feel guilty about suicide bombing then how will they stop doing it?
             
             Yes the leaders have to stop teaching them these things, that is true, but the bombers themselves need to feel "loss of life" when they witness something like this happening before they themselves will decide to not just line up for the next suicide bomber mission. 
             
             In short whether they are culpable or not they need to feel guilty in order to understand that what they are doing is taking people's ability to survive away, and that in that context it is actually wrong.
             
             I know what is taught in those countries and I too hope for a better world for those people, but when push comes to shove those people need to be given an alternative to the mindless rhetoric they are raised to believe.  If they are not then they will end up at the end of our rifles and the violence will only continue.
             
             They are raised not only to believe hate but to convert it into malice as well.  The malice must stop before we can come to an area where we live in peace, and stopping at gunpoint is so primitive.
             
             These are my thoughts.

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                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                How would you suppose you could make someone feel guilty?  It is a bit like asking someone to love you when they don't, cha know?
                
                I don't disagree you know, when push comes to shove you can bet your 'AK47" that I will do whatever I have to do to keep my family and self safe. 
                
                Allowing malice to prevail over innocents would only lead to a world full of people who hate each other all the time.

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             Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Sandy,
             
             I think it's way more complicated. Americans are brainwashed and taught to hate people who don't share their "democracy" values, too. You are no exception, btw, whether you understand it or not. You know I love you, and hope you don't take it as an offense, but rather as a food for thoughts
             
             You are like this Korean girl, cute as button smiling while saying "Muslim world and Korea are my enemies".
             
             Well, all countries do this. Russia does, too - and I was (and sometimes still is) heavily influenced by propaganda.
             
             As long as we have groups of people opposing other groups, be it country, race, gender, nationality, dialect, weight, etc - we have this kind of survival mechanism in us that instinctively pushes us towards separating from other groups and hating their members...
             
             And no Zarm, I think suicide bombers make those choices for themselves, pretty much like American soldiers do. I mean Americans decide to join their army, and Palestinians or Iraqis decide to join their army. Then they obey the orders...

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                sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                Maybe? 

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                Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                Doubtful Misha, perhaps some of the time it is "the same" in the sense of one "choosing it", but sometimes there are genuine differences.
                
                For instance, what about Patty Hearst?  It's not like she exactly signed up for what they turned her into.

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          topstuffposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I first of all don't justify their act but they say we were also civilans when did we harm any one,why we were hit and attacked.

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    sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

    I thought you might like this song Zarm.  It's called Pods and Gods by NoFx, of course this is not the entire song, but it is one of my favorites because I love the message. 
    
    
    
    It's not that I don't belive in aliens.
    It's just I really don't care.
    I wouldn't mind some interplanetary friends,
    until they come I'll hang in my own atmosphere.
    
    It's not that I don't belive in Jesus Christ.
    It's just I care about other things.
    The world could certainly use some miracles,
    Until then I'll put my faith in human beings.
    
    
    

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    Paragliderposted 16 years ago

    Greetings -
    I'd like just to observe in passing that in Gaza and Palestine at least as many deaths, maimings and mutilations have been caused by military strikes and incursions by Israeli forces as have been caused by suicide bombers. This does not excuse either side. But the solution to the problem is not to perpetuate the good guys bad guys myth.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    There is this constant undertone of bad Arabs. It is not Iraqis in the US trying to steal US oil. It is the US occupying Iraq. There was no violence in Palistine before the northern european Jews stole Palistine, and continue to steal it acre by acre every day.
    Theft begets violence. Everytime a US or Israli plane bombs a villiage you hear nothing. Everytime a suicide bomber blows up, it is front page news. Oh - and it is a fanatical God believing suicide bomber against jet planes. Who else would be so crazy.

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       Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yes. I tried to raise this a few posts ago and was studiously ignored. That is one of the two reactions one commonly gets when one dares to suggest that US/Israeli policy (and actions) might be part of the problem. The other common reaction is to be accused of being a terrorist sympathizer. But I sat on a beach in the Gulf about six years ago and watched the hideous grey US warships sailing towards Kuwait in preparation for the "Shock & Awe" episode.
       
       And now, because of my work, I see footage every day of the devastation and carnage wreaked by that continuing war, by the Israeli strikes and incursions in Palestine & Gaza, and yes, also by Islamic suicide bombers.
       
       But what do you see on FoxTV? On CNN? When was the last time a US Presidential hopeful dared to criticise Israel?
       
       Let's have some balance. Better, let's have some thought!

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          Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Better, let's not have any assumptions.  I have contributed plenty of thoughts.  I am no Zionist, there are problems on both sides and until both sides can see that they both do not have "the moral highground", (as in neither side has moral highground), then the violence will keep going.  It would be good on the U.S. side if there were a different foreign policy approach towards Israel, one that was not influenced by the Zionist backlash that took hold after World War II happened.  I don't know for sure, but if I were President I would cease arms support of Israel, and I would pressure them to exercise real dipomacy. 
          
          Of course as you aptly pointed out Paraglider, this could be seen by some as "cowering" towards terrorists, but as you and I both know, the reality of that kind of "catering to terrorists" rhetoric is more violence, not less.
          
          It's an international feud, and it is a crying shame that it is the way it is.  A change in US foreign policy that resulted in discontinueing arms support for Israel and working towards diplomacy would pretty much ensure that more moderate/liberal people made their way into the Israeli parliament.
          
          How does this have to do with God being an alien?  I dunno, this kinda got sidetracked, so I will hush now.
          
          

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Which Shock & Awe" episode is this going to be? Aw - never mind I missed the 'six years ago'.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Maybe an alien God is most of the problem, you know not from here. The solution in Palistine is a palistinian state. That would take care of about 90% of the problem. Unfortunately the Israelis (Likud Party) want the whole of Palistine. There is no American politician who can stand up to Israel. US Congress just approved another $170 million. Expect Obama to go and
    kiss the Wailing Wall. So on it will go with no utter end.

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       Inspirepubposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Until the Seed of the Canaanites is Revealed, and returns to claim his or her rightful inheritance of the Kingdom of Israel, which was wrongfully wrested from the Canaanites by the Isrealites in a religiously and racially-based genocidal war.
       
       The Israelites and the Palestinians are equally interlopers in Canaan.
       
       One day, the direct-line descendants of the few surviving Canaanites who escaped the ravening hordes of Isrealites will emerge from hiding to take their rightful place as the sovereign rulers of The Promised Land.
       
       Jenny

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    Paragliderposted 16 years ago

    If he wants to go kissing inanimate objects, the Blarney Stone is a far better bet, to be sure, to be sure

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Mr. Weyrich
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Weyrich
    works with an organization called Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) which was founded by one Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, a Brazilian extremist and self-styled prophet who openly called for the implementation of a world-wide "Christian" regime based on medieval hierarchy and repression.

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       Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I see you have done your research.
       
       Congratulations..
       
       Yes that is their goal, mildly stated, although I do not think Mr Weyrich is directly part of the TFP, he probably views them just like any other organization that can be used to support his "cause".  The TFP have their own understanding that goes far beyond anything Paul Weyrich could imagine.  Or perhaps he is TFP?  Maybe I am wrong?  I certainly did not know everyone in the group when I was in and vice versa.  I have had to allow a certain amount of time to elapse since getting out before making any internet traceable references to them, just so that I could be physically safe.  I am quite safe now.
       
       They are Fatima cultists and will stop at nothing to ressurect a guild based culture and position themselves as the Inquisitors in the New Church.
       
       They are despicable and ruthlessly arrogant in every sense of the word.  They are vicious and seek only that which they believe comes from the Fatima prophecies.  They are servants of the Blessed Virgin Mary and will crush anyone in their path should they ever take power.  When I say "crush" I need to clarify that statement to be a slow persistant squeeze over time of any political ability to resist the imposition of dogma, almost like a boa constrictor "crushes" it's victims.  Protesting blasphemy is a hallmark of their mentality, they seek to ruthlessly ferret out anyone and anything that insults the sacred (as in only Catholic Sacred).
       
       Of course chances are they will never amount to anything other than a small hill of beans, but the people that get ensnared in their vicious zealotry and spit out the other end when they do not co-operate have names and faces and they are worth something...
       
       Of course these kinds of "groups" never talk about the "former members", after all they are strictly utilitarian when it comes to people, anyone, ANYONE, is a means to an end in a group such as this.  If any person does not work as they are supposed to then they are cast out or they walk out if they can find ways to survive outside the group.
       
       Some are murdered, or encouraged through deception to commit suicide without even knowing what they are doing....

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    Paragliderposted 16 years ago

    Zarm - I read your story closely and with interest, and am very glad you succeeded in breaking free.
    
    Regarding Al Qaeda and Hamas, they are very different entities. Qaeda is a terrorist organisation with roots in Saudi but no affiliation to any state and serving no agenda but their own. They have very little support from anyone anywhere in the world. Hamas has political legitimacy. In many ways they are akin to Sinn Fein. (The political wing of the Irish Republican Army). Given the right conditions, they are capable of peacemaking. Treat them as terrorists and that too is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Fatima cultists. That's a new one. Sounds like something out of
    'The Da Vinci Code', a great book by the way. By the video you posted, was sure some great art and music. Looks like rich people to me. Thought maybe they had hired God to protect their property. The visions of Fatima a whole 'nother story.

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       Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Well man, all I can tell you is that unlike the DaVinci code, the "group" I was involved with is a real deal, and they are subtly malevolent to those that disagree.
       
       They are real and exist, unfortunately.
       
       Far from playing pretend, these people are deadly serious in their insanity.

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    Paragliderposted 16 years ago

    Meanwhile, I suspect you still equate Al Qaeda with Hamas, since you didn't respond. Hm?

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       Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       No, I do not now, if what you said is true Paraglider.  If Hamas is more like the IRA and Al-Qaeda is state/country independent in the manner you said, then I have no reason to believe they are directly equatable.

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          Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks Zarm. I wasn't letting that one go, because I think it is a very real problem in modern US culture, the tendency to make assumptions about the rest of the world.

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             Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             You are correct in stating this Paraglider, because as Americans we are pretty self absorbed when it comes to politics and political viewpoints.  It is refreshing to have "outside" opinions as well as facts stated in a way that makes one think, and it is welcome.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    In the understanding of religious, political or any other kind of
    'insanity', the best and perhaps only true teacher is real personal experience. For those who do not have that
    experience, they can only pretend to learn what is - by reading etc. But pretending is not reality, as you say, unless one believes the pretending is real. But this is also considered insanity.

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    jahmerposted 16 years ago

    Is God Alien?
    
    A very deep question. If that which is not of this world is alien, then in a general sense I am that
    I am is indeed alien because God is not of this world. However God never tries to prove He is God but nature proclaims His case. The Bible teaches God is Eternal Spirit. Even humans are in pure essence spirit. To try to think as or like God is indeed insanity. A finite being cannot comprehend an Infinite God.
    
    jahmer

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    twingwiriposted 16 years ago

    Firstly i want to correct Derek.Christianity is not religion but its the truth. it is the only religion, only to use your word, that has been proven by all forms of philosophy. unlike others where you have to follow mechanically, Christianity is more liberal and has more witnesses. So i say God is not an alien,BUT He is our all in all. BE CAREFUL OF BLASPHEMY, AND MAY GOD BLESS YOU.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Christianity is a lie, and judging from your response here, you don't even know what your own book says lol You have no clue how to conduct yourself in a conversation - typical christian.
       
       You certainly don't know that there are many many more non-christians than there are christians lol
       
       Christianity has more witnesses lol What a nonsensical thing to say.
       
       
       Christianity - The McDonalds of religions - One billion converted lol 

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          Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Nice 1.  I see what you did there

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    wudieposted 16 years ago

    Mark, you just an atheist whose basis of argument is absence of what you call evidence. the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, what you dont know that you dont know does not mean that it does not exist. just because i havent seen you does not mean mark knowles does not exist. even science cannot explain most of the things that are spiritual. I havent seen God but He has heeled me, not the doctor. ask yourself how many cripples have walked after attending a church conference. go to sunday service and see for yourself!!!

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       Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       You say there is a spirit roaming my garden, I see no spirit and question the basis for your "knowledge", if you are a spiritualist and cannot provide me with evidence I will not "believe" there is indeed a spirit inhabiting my garden.  Do I "know for sure" there is no such spirit?
       Perhaps not, but I am not worried about it, because you have provided no EVIDENCE, just testimnoy and fiat if you cannot prove it exists.  Trickery if you try to prove it exists through deceit, and arrogance if your trickery doesn't work right.
       
       Spiritualists have done this time and again in the past (and even now), and so do people who are members of organized religion.  While absence of evidence may not be evidence of abscence, it is still a pretty damn good reason to disbelieve in what, for all practical purposes, is nonsensical due to lack of solid evidence.
       
       Even C.S. Lewis had to reduce the Holy Spirit to a sort of "feeling", it is impossible to provide any hard, solid, evidence.  The whole "Open your Heart to God" arguement is used by Muslims as well as Christians as well as many many other religions.  This is simply jargon for "Let me one-up your mind".
       
       No thankyou.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       This is barely worth a response, but as you wish.
       
       To a small extent you are correct. A complete lack of evidence for some thing that makes no sense has helped to convince me that there is no god. Yes.
       
       Total absence of any contrary information tends to do that.
       
       Do you believe in Santa Claus? lol
       
       Think of it this way -
       
       We are both atheists - I just believe in one less god than you do.

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          Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I want to go on the record for saying very flatly that while evidence is required to "know" something, I do not think that 100% conclusive evidence is required to call something hogwash and refuse to believe in it.  If such were the case, millions of people would be helpless against your average high pressure sales person.  There is no moral case to be made for re-enforced naivety, i.e. that I must believe something because I cannot prove it isn't true.  To all those that want to believe, fine go ahead, but me not having 100% conclusive proof of the non-existance of your "God" anymore than I have 100% conclusive proof of the non-existance of the tooth fairy, does not equate out to a moral imperative that I must continue to believe and not apostasize.
          
          For instance, X-tians will often state how homosexuality is a sin, but yet when science flatly demonstrates that assertion to be false, they resort to paranoid vinidictive statements and actions, due to their very real cognitive dissonance.  Since that understanding of the supposed "sin of homosexuality" is part and parcel of their understanding of the "God", (and because they claim it is not because I claim it is), then, since science disproves their understanding of homosexuality, science also in a sense disproves their dogma and hence their God as well.  This is because, according to them their form of God must exist with that particular understanding of doctrine and hence it is a pillar of their "God".  Take away that pillar of irational bigotry, and the whole thing crumbles.  For me bigotry is contnueing to hate once an attempt has been made to right a wrong, and that attempt has been made based in reason and people thinking for themselves, not in the mental chains found in adhering to the "made-by-men" dubious hermeneutics of a book that is older than most things we see in our day-to-day existance..
          
          
          Let me phrase it this way to everyone here (everyone being whom I am addressing):
          
          If you try to sell me miracle salve and I probe for a reason why it works wonders and you tell me (in a subtle way) that I must believe in your miracle salve and buy it because I cannot produce a reason why it doesn't work, then you are only fooling yourself. 
          
          Replace the word miracle salve, with the word "God" and you've got the answer to what is truly and really going on in the world when it comes to "conversion".  Ask questions and the people who are trying to convert you get put in a tight spot, and them trying to make the contention that absence of evidence is not sufficient enough for skepticism is something that religious ministers and sales/marketer people alike have been practicing since the beginning of the human race.
          
          It's just that they are having more of a rough time of it nowadays because people are more educated, (post Enlightenment educational structures), and thus not so easily duped by their "wares".
          
          Charisma is nothing compared to intelligence, and reason will show that time and time again in the case of religion. 
          
          Charisma without intelligence is like so much hot air in a baloon, pop the baloon and out comes the wind.
          
          Who does more for the world?
          
          A.  The Jimmy Swaggarts of the world?
          
          or
          
          B.  The Emergency Room Doctors of the world?
          
          I really want to know what people think on this question.  If you don't answer then fine, but it would be nice to know.

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             sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Depends on what kind of hurt you are talking about. 

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       TheCapnposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I'm betting the amount of cripples healed at church conferences is pretty low. Especially since you used the term "cripple", which could mean anything. How about you refine that, how many people permanently paralyzed from the waist down have been able to walk out of a church conference? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was zero. Let's not forget my favorite question, does god hate amputees? I have yet to see any documented proof of anyone miraculously regrowing a severed appendage.
       
       So-called miracles are only evidence of our lack of understanding of the laws of nature and the human body and an indicator of how much more we need to learn.

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          Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          The amputee arguement is quite damning.

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             mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             You cannot be forced to see truth.It has to come from within.

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                Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                Nah, one definitely can be forced to see anything.  The truth or otherwise.  Responsible ethics demand that people's free will be respected.
                
                People can be forced to see things from within, it happens all the time in domestic violence.  Religion is no exception.

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                   mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   The vedas describe the human as some 5000 species out of 8,32,000 species depending on their evolution or consciousness,so true.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Agree. If I communed with God how could I be me.

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28. 0

    sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

    touche' if people could believe God in themselves, that they are what they are, Gods, then we could treat each other like Gods, love like Gods and become One Just Like God. 
    
    

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Sadly though then, we wouldn't be able to get rich exploiting other people and things.

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       sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       ROTFL! 

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       mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Exploitation is  crooked way,the change will be for the better as desperation will seaze.

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    SparklingJewelposted 16 years ago

    you all joke and stuff about knowing or not knowing God. The answer to seek is for the soul, in the soul, what is the soul. The answers are there in ancient literature and in  your soul memory.
    
    IT is something to pursue and find answers for yourself...but proof is only from within yourself, and sad to say so if you cannot accept that special individual relationship between you and God; a relationship that cannot be proven, cannot be defined, cannot be explained...only accepted, believed, have faith in and continue to maintain and increase the connection.
    
    It is all about strengthening ones self against the nay sayers and that includes your own internal nay saying...and not getting over involved with the groups and the religions, etc...not making someone or some group your god.
    
    the same goes for love and defining love. no one else experiences it as you do. it drives the soul to seek and explore. no human love can compare to the love of Oneness with God. human love can give some clues, but most concepts of human love are way off base unless you resolve your personal  psychology and come to your own understanding about God. IMHO

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       mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Lovely:)

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    Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years ago

    I am not God and I will not worship anything including myself or others.  Also, I will not worship objects or creatures or the cosmos.  As far as I can tell it appears no one else is god either.  God is Fiat and I love to destroy Fiat through logic and reason, and uphold that which is based in reality, which is self evident or built on truths that we all hold to be self evident..
    
    I say quite deliberately to any human in existence and any social contsruct known as "god":
    
    
    Non Serviam.

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       mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Sorry Zarm but you still do not know who God is so you refute.

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          Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I don't need to "know" who God is to refute him, anymore than I need to "know" the "valuable" qualities of homeopathic remedies or "miracle salve" first before attempting to refute those absurdities as well.  Belief in something is not a logical precondition for refutation, it never has been and it never will be.
          
          The medicine man always makes the most money and has the most women, and his head is the first to get placed on the Peoples' Axe.

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             mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Revelation is defined as the way God dsicloses himself to humanity.

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    ripplemakerposted 16 years ago

    Does God exist?
    
    Is he for real?
    
    If he is, does he love me?
    
    If not, then why do I keep on looking for Him?
    
    Is God an alien?
    
    Huh?
    
    Nah, he isn't.
    
    But (gasp) maybe he could be?
    
    What?
    
    Ruuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!
    
      I'm in a mischievous mood on this fine friday morning.  (soweee)
    I know of this God who loves me.
    And hey, it is alright if you believe he exists or not.
    It may not be even a he.
    But a she.
    Or an it.
    Or nothing.
    Or everything.
    
      But I'm happy.
    Wishing you all the joy of God. 
    Take care....

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       Zarm Nefilinposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       
       
       Your joy is infectious.  Evidently it proceeds from Love.
       
       If there is Heaven then it must be filled with resounding halls of echoing laughter as people celebrated their mischevious individuality by making each other laugh through love and joy..
       
       Your joy is appreciated.

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