Free Will was not given to us

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OpinionDuckposted 14 years ago
There is much citing the bible for free will OFFERING, but God gave us Free Will to do whatever we want then it should be in Genesis.

Where do you think that is says God gave us free will?
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  'Free Will' doesn't exist, doubly so with the Xian deity construct.
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  OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I comprehend part of that
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Xian, shorthand for Christian, was coined by believers based on the Greek character 'rho.' Now you know.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When Eve at from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil!
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  OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That was not free will
  That was an act of disobedience to a direct order not to do it.
  You don't punish free will, you train it.
  
  Even if I agree that was a free will act, God Punished them and threw them out of the Garden, but he didn't give us any rules that apply, because there had only been One Rule, and that only applied to ONE tree.
  
  Cain killed Abel and that wasn't a real big deal apparently.
  God didn't set any new rules for it. It wasn't until Moses that the people were to know about any new rules.
  
  These new rules were the Ten Commandments, but I don't know if they count because there is no real record of the tablets that contained them. So technically, we are not bound by them.
  
  As with the Ten Commandment there is no mention of restricting free will or giving free will. Like you can do anything else but don't break these commandments. All of the commandments are broken daily by people of all kinds, and by religions, and governments and it is only the law in the jurisdiction that an illegal act occurs is a violation. It is a violation of man's law and not the Ten Commandments.
  
  Thanks
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well you did ask? I didn't say you would agree with my answer.
  
  Remembering that the bible was not written apparently to many eons later. It is possible that....Order, was a perception of the writer. Punishment was too.
  
  However,in saying that...The punishment as such was inevitable and unchangeable by God. When one knows good as good evil is sure to arise. That is why it seems it was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Prior to the eating of the fruit. Good was not good, evil wasn't evil. Perception made its so. So when good and evil were known and taught to all they had influence over ie Able and Cain.. It gained momentum over time. Hence why the need for the 10 commandments came into play.
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  OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for your reply.
  
  I still disagree, because Evil already existed because according to the bible, just referencing it, Satan and his angels were the evil, or the opposite of God.
  
  Without the serpent (evil), the real question is would Eve have broken the rule.
  
  I also think the tree of knowledge was a mythi, as evidence by the lack of knowledge in the world.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok!
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  OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks,
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  'God' created evil.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, nothing was 'broken.' The two mythical figures had no inkling of right or wrong-until after they ate the magic apple. You might as well fault a infant for not being able to design a nuclear reactor.
  
  Secondly, their innocent action was scripted by the Xian daemon deity via the Divine Plan and the omni characteristics. Something is omni [all] or it isn't. There is no in between.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep agree. I have pointed to that in this thread too!
  
  What is the Xian daemon deity?
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The god of the Abrahamic superstitions. In other words-the Christian deity. BTW daemon is the original spelling for demon.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh thanks for that. So what is a demon to you?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If i tell you not to sit in that chair and you do.. how do you figure that abolishes all wrong doing on your part? Since God told them NOT to eat of the tree, how does eating of the tree abolish them from doing wrong.
  
  It doesn't take understanding nuclear science to know that after being told not to do something (remember adam and eve both had working knowledge of language) and a person does what they are told NOT to do that they have done wrongly. I would say this is pretty much simple logic.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They were incapable of understanding the concept of "wrong," because they had not yet eaten of the tree of knowledge.
  
  Therefore they were not punished for doing "wrong."
  
  They were punished for doing something they had been told not to do by god. What a pathetic god. He specifically told them not to do something he knew they were incapable of understanding was "wrong," and were going to do it anyway.
  
  Simple logic, cousin.
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  couturepopcafeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, this is good insight. I couldn't find anything about free will, specifically, from any resource. The closest thing I could find was the 'knowing of the good and evil' after the fall from grace. This would automatically, it seems, include free will to choose between the two. Here's something interesting though. Gen. 4:22 "behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever", they were sent from the Garden. Apparently, the only way to get back to the Garden is to remember that there is a tree of life, a way we can live forever. But according to the New Testament, the 'tree of life' is Jesus, believing He is the Saviour. According to the O.T., there was a physical tree from which one could have plucked. Too bad Eve didn't pick that one.
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  qwarkposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Couture:
  No, it's wrong that this psychotic "god thing" didn't prepare them with understanding before he/it/she, whatever, punished them so severely!
  To believe such "tripe" is an example of human insanity!
  Qwark
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  couturepopcafeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I was pointing out the obvious. Do I have to come over there and smack you silly? I think you and Mark are agreeing with me, right?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - doesn't make a lot of sense in the cold light of day, does it?
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It wouldn't make any sense if one was dead drunk.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Once again, the mythical couple had no knowledge of right and wrong-UNTIL-after they ate the magic apple.
  
  Please acknowledge this point.
  
  You, as usual, show no signs of logic-simple or otherwise. That isn't an insult. Effectively, your god did fault the two mental infants 'for not being able to design a nuclear reactor.' Not only that, but faulted all their descendants!
  
  Please acknowledge this point.
  
  It would have been less than child's play for your demon god to have kept the 'magic trees' out of the reach of the mental toddlers.
  
  Please acknowledge this point.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually they defaulted their own descendents by their choices.
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Once again, the mythical couple had no knowledge of right and wrong-UNTIL-after they ate the magic apple.
  
  Please acknowledge this point.
  
  Absolutely acknowledged.
  I told my 10 year old son not to touch the two wires together.
  He had to try it. Action(or decision)- Result.
  
  You, as usual, show no signs of logic-simple or otherwise. That isn't an insult. Effectively, your god did fault the two mental infants 'for not being able to design a nuclear reactor.' Not only that, but faulted all their descendants!
  
  Please acknowledge this point.
  
  Sorry I can't.
  First of all, I don't know you or anyone else here well enough to insult them so cursorily by suggesting that they usually are without logic (suggesting imbecilic) So no.
  God did not fault the children. They touched the two wires together and got a natural unchangeable result. So no.
  God did not fault there descendants. The actions of the parents skewed the descendants existing opportunities to be sure...(if my Dad robbed banks...I'm sure there would be some downstream consequences)((but the law would provide those consequences naturally as an effect of my Dads decisions...not as a response))
  So no.
  
  It would have been less than child's play for your demon god to have kept the 'magic trees' out of the reach of the mental toddlers.
  
  Please acknowledge this point.
  
  Partially, if said God had desired automatonic relationships yes.
  However, being made in their image meant the ability to think, and choose...just like you and me...and then live with their results and either learn from them or not...just like you and me ... Even in this physical realm, every decision that involves action, will ripple eternally. (Unless energy learns how to extinguish itself)
  
  Love your thinking though, if you'd remove the rude commentary regarding other folks and their ability to think, you'd be worth following!
  God Bless eh?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why should it necessarily be in Genesis?
  (And as others pointed out, it IS there anyway).
  
  It's also in Deuteronomy, and Joshua, Job, Proverbs, Isaiah, etc.
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  couturepopcafeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda - please tell us chapter and verse so I can read it. Thanks.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Books of Bible have no divine arrangement; even as to who authored Genesis is not known for sure. I think it is an anonymous book; nobody has claimed having written it within its text or without.
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  couturepopcafeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Experts believe it was penned by Moses.
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  psycheskinnerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not any experts I have heard of.
  "There is hardly a biblical scholar in the world actively working on the problem who would claim that the Five Books of Moses were written by Moses." Richard E. Friedman.
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So who's Richard Friedman? A biblical scholar or historian?
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It also was edited several times as well as voted on.
  
  A Superman/Girl[tm] comic book is far superior with regard to; internal consistency, connection to reality, and morality.
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  libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paar there is no divine order to the Qu'ran either! Who wrote it? It was not God! It was scribes who all wrote it according to memory...and history tells us most of those who memorized it died! And I've read it...many times actually...and I see NO divine order to it.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  If it is not given then please take it back. I don't like it nor do I want it.
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  Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Where do you think we got free will from?
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Free Will was obtain by each individual upon birth. It is ingrained into our consciousness, subconsciousness and conscience.

Free will only means that your will(will power) is free. The reason "free will" exists is because of consciousness- the awareness of life, free thoughts and free thinking. The ability to think for oneself.

The problem is that even at birth, awareness isn't valid, because of the undeveloped mind for which it is attached to, does not recognize it or know what it means. Babies simply exist, to be nurtured and taught by parents.

The first time a child becomes defiant is the begin signs of self awareness and free will. The child may not understand, but will learn.
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  OpinionDuckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  see my comment to Penny
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brotheryochananposted 14 years ago
The free will is exhibited by the choice adam and eve made to disobey God. That started the ball rolling. Everybody after them had the choice to dis or obey God. In this is free will to choose, it is called the 'sin nature'.

But
God draws those unto himself, so there must be a bit of puppetry going on here if the people God chooses to draw unto himself arrive at the proper place and time to be drawn. The bible also states that God is in control of all things. So clearly there is not an overall uncontrolled free will but more of a circuit or a parade to points in general, brought about by god that lead to the only free will choice that makes any difference:
will you be saved? or will you reject christ and know not God.

if one chooses to be saved then they are under tutelage and governance of Gods ways and this requires some exertion of the child of God to be lead by God to become a mature christian in God somewhere down the line of time, ahead in the future. Free will is exercised here but reprimanded of God if not aligned to his desires or will for that lifes' purpose. Just like a parent we all have free will but calling mom a b*tch in front of dad is probably not the proper free will choice and i dare say, there is no choice at all in the decision not to call mom a .....

Clearly we exhibit free will by choosing to do many things in daily life, but overall, God leads us about until we either accept him or deny him and then works according to our decision.

salvation is the purpose of life and all roads lead to it and then either along it or away from it.
I can be emailed
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  couturepopcafeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To put it another way, the salvation or mastery of wisdom. There is knowledge of everything from intuition or remembering. By self-control, one gains enlightenment, intuitional perception, and knowledge of the indweller, God. But flesh/sensory organs can be obstacles to realization.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well put! I agree!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Articulately stated!!!
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qwarkposted 14 years ago
There is no mention of the words: "Free will"in any religious scripture.
Qwark
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fatfistposted 14 years ago
"Free Will was not given to us"

I should certainly "hope not". Nobody can give you a concept. Not even the Almighty.

Just imagine what your lovely wife would do to you this Christmas if you told her:

"Honey, from now on I will be giving you conceptual gifts for Christmas, your birthday, and all our anniversaries. Let me start the process by giving you 'love'. Merry Christmas hun, I love you! Oh....btw....can you please upgrade my Christmas gift this year from a 42" to a 55" LCD screen? Thanks hun, I love you even more!"

So if your wife decides to go "postal" on you, then what should all the people of this planet decide to do with God, who hands out "free will" like it's candy?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you want a TV (material thing) give her something material also.
  I'd much rather my wife (still) love me this Christmas than not, than give me all the "stuff" she can buy.
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  AKA Winstonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Step 1: Dig a hole 3 feet deep
  Step 2: Stand in the hole
  Step 3: Only when 1 & 2 are completed, make a statement.
  
  Is this way you will have less risk that your ideas will whiz over the heads of the many believers who bow to authority.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so, are you standing in said hole?
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aka-djposted 14 years ago
Fee will may be a bit of a misnomer.
I see it more as the ability to choose.
God created Angels, who either made a choice (way back when) to serve Him, or had no choice, and were created just for that singular purpose.
Those who chose to break away from Him, did so. They are the followers of satan.
Man was created in the innocent state in which they were given the ability (freedom) to choose. Obey the one command, and live, or disobey the one command and die.
If there was no satan (evil, or an alternative option) man would not have had a choice to make. We would have been in a sense, the same as the angels. God, clearly, has (had) a different purpose for our kind.
Nothing has changed to this very day. People are still confronted with the choice to either obey/follow God, or disobey/reject God. It is rarely clearer a distinction of two groups than right here in the forums.
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No 'choice' involved with the Christian God. All are mere actors in a pointless play hitting their marks and spouting their lines as scripted when God shat the universe into being.
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow!!! I gotta get me a burnin' bush cause I have to choose my lines every single time I deliver them! And I'm gettin' old and can't rely on blind memory to just spit out a pat answer anymore!!! hmmm...that was part of the plan too I'm sure. Damn...poor un-responsible...un-needed me...
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Ms Deeposted 14 years ago
Free will is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy when Yahweh tells the children of Israel:

"Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…." (Deuteronomy 30:11–19)

Whether the children of Israel are blessed or cursed depends on what they choose to do. God set before them the possibilities of life and death, but they decide which possibilities they shall actualize. [Quote from http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/predestinati … free-will/ ]
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope. When one has only one 'path' and no option other than to follow the script there's no 'Free Will'.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Still interested in this script of yours?
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  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  -heavy sigh-
  
  It would be easy for me to conclude you're very thick, but I doubt such is the case.
  
  I'll play.
  
  'Divine Plan.'
  Omniscience=all knowing
  
  1 Thessalonians 5:18 (King James Version)
  
  18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
  
  {I'm not holding my breath for a 'reply' from you to have any substance}
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thick is your opinion. Perhaps we just interpret it differently? It is obvious you interpret what you quoted differently.
  
  "Gods will" does not necessarily imply there is a script. Unless you would like there to be one? Gods will and the will of the ego are two very different things. Discerning which is which is the key to knowing whether or not there is a script. If you have not yet mastered discernment then there may "appear" to be a script because one does not listen to the quiet voice within (the god/holy spirit within).
  
  Whether or not my reply has substance will depend on your level of understanding. If you choose to give away your self responsibility to a said script that is supposed to exist then so it shall be.
  
  What the ego wishes to create will then become a reality for you.
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  Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'M RELIGIOUS and I say NO!!!!
  
  Hi penny
  
  agree
  
  Finished that Mugged by Monkeys hub,
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can't find the hub?
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  Ms Deeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, but there is not only one 'path', right? The Israelites were given free reign to choose any god they wanted.
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  AKA Winstonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here is the free will offered by god.
  
  If you don't do what I say you are dead meat. Ya Hear! DEAD MEAT!
  
  Gee, decisions, decisions....
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  Ms Deeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, if we decide to believe what God is saying is true. Some do not and just ignore what he says about being dead meat and chance that not happening, and so go that way. It's a decision of whether to take what God says will happen as being true, or not.
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  AKA Winstonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @Ms Dee,
  
  Even if one were to believe in a god, there is still the problem of which god is the right one to believe, after which there is the problem of determining what that paticular god is saying now or has said in the past, and if it was said in the past how do we know we are getting the accurate representation of what was said?
  
  After all, the stenographer for Adam and Even couldn't have been around to take notes if someone had indeed intoned, let there be light. The entire NT is filled with words written after the fact, while nary a single eye-witness to the life and teachings of Jesus penned a single word about his adventure.
  
  The Son of Sam claimed that his neighbor's dog told him to go out and kill. How do we know the voices we hear aren't from schizophrenia rather than any god?
  
  All of religion is opinion. That's O.K. But opinion is neither fact nor necessarily a truth.
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  Ms Deeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see, so from your view, the 4 gospels in the NT are not written by eyewitnesses, when you say "nary a single eye-witness to the life and teachings of Jesus penned a single word about his adventure." And even if they were true eyewitnesses, what's to say that god is the right god. Yes, that view does indeed have a sad dilemma. It is risky to trust something that can't be proven 100%, isn't it.
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  AKA Winstonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @ Ms Dee,
  
  Don't take my word on it. Biblical scholars worldwide hold the views that not a single word of the NT was written by anyone who knew or saw Jesus, and that the gospels were in fact not written by those named.
  
  The oldest books in the NT are the letters of Paul, who himself never saw and never knew Jesus. The earliest gospel is the book of Mark, which came later than any books or letters of Paul, and was not written by a disciple (who were illiterate fishermen who spoke Aramaic while the gospels were written in Greek) but by some unknown author at least 30-40 years after the death of Jesus. Luke and Matthew came after Mark, as both copied about 70% of Mark verbatim. John was the last gospel book penned, about 95 C.E.
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  Ms Deeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, you have the approx. dates of the gospels' written production down, but the Biblical scholars I've studied hold the opposite view as to their source. And I beg to differ; Paul did indeed see Jesus. This is just to say it depends on which scholars we trust for information - that risky trust issue.
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  AKA Winstonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @ Mr Dee,
  
  No, Ms Dee, Saul (at the time) did not "see" Jesus nor did he ever meet Jesus, even if you are referring to Acts 9: 3-6, as the description is of being blinded by a light and hearing a voice. The legend is that he was blinded for 3 days following this occurence.
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  Ms Deeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  v8 when Paul got up from the ground he was blind, not before. He was blind because he'd actually looked at Jesus when those around him didn't see him, only heard him, confirmed in Acts 22:14,15. He both heard AND saw Jesus, "the Righteous One".
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  AKA Winstonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ms Dee,
  
  Claiming to see and hear a vision is not the same as seeing and hearing the person alive - it is in the same category as Son of Sam's talking neighborhood dog claim.
  
  Not only that but the passages your refer to occured after the vision, are a description of something someone else said to Paul, and are more a proof that the bible is fallacious as this man's very claim that Paul would see Jesus never occured to Paul either before or after this man spoke to him.
  
  Trying to twist the meaning of this text is the strange character I find in Christian apologists who try to defned inerrancy of the bible. You may consider the book holy as is your right, but inerrant it is not.
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  Ms Deeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Those with Paul were witnesses by hearing, though not seeing. The fact that Paul turned blind suddenly is proof. This is not a twist of the text, but rather your interpretation is doing the actual twisting. You are offer no real proof for your interpretation, actually.
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SpanStarposted 14 years ago
We have eyes and still we can not see, hears and still we can not hear.

Free Will From God:

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Let's think about it for a moment...to enter into Heaven we must choose-choices are provided when one is free to choose.
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manlypoetrymanposted 14 years ago
Who in the Duck wants to know?
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Free Will was not given to us

Free will with responsibility and accountability has been given to us; I think; limited only to this world.
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  Druid Dudeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We must be conscious of all ramifications and choose what is most beneficial to all, noy what we desire, but what need to continue becoming civilized.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is OK with me
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Mark Ewbieposted 14 years ago
Dunno if this has been mentioned but a great benefit to not believing in God and stuff is that free will just is. So I am completely free to do what I like, after permission from the wife of course.
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wildcat100posted 14 years ago
(OH)
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