Ever see that film? It depicts the world after a nuclear holocaust aka apocalypse.
We can pretty much conclude Mr Camping is off base.
But in that wake, nearly 50 million supporters/listeners worldwide -exceeding that of the famous Art Bell- certainly a bomb of another kind is about to go off. An apocalypse of depression.
Now is the true test of religion AND atheism.
In a brief statement by Fox News ( a Disney Company ):
"In Oakland [California], atheists planned a gathering at a local Masonic temple to include group discussions on "The Great Success of Past Apocalypses," followed by dinner and music.
"Christian leaders from across the spectrum have widely dismissed the prophecy, but one local church is concerned that Camping's followers could slip into a deep depression come Sunday. Pastor Jacob Denys of a Calvary Bible Church, plans to wait outside the nonprofit's headquarters [in Alameda California ] on Saturday afternoon, hoping to counsel believers who may be disillusioned [if] the Rapture [does] not occur. 'The cold, hard reality is going to hit them that they did this, and it was false and they basically emptied out everything to follow a false teacher,' he said."
So, let's keep it real. Millions believed it, millions -not a couple thousand like David Koresh or Jim Jones, but millions -around the world. Question now comes: what level of humanism is in both you religious and atheist to help these people recover. hmm? How real is all that crowing/squalling both sides have been saying about how they are a better representation of humanity? What do plan to do to help these people, as you helped [if you did] the people in Japan, Haiti, New Orleans, Australia, Iceland, etc. This is the result of your pro and con ideology. Do you see it now? Do you?! This is the worst kind of conflict, war, deluge. One that ends up slowly destroying lives, just like this event did. no Tsunami comes close to this type of devastation.
fox news article
I think you're being overly melodramatic, James. "More damaging than a tsunami"? Surely you jest. At the very least, if the rapture as you mean it were true, the fact that it hasn't happened yet would simply mean that people still have a chance to live and get their house in order so-to-speak.
And if people don't know by now not to follow a cult leader, then I dunno what to tell 'em........except that they need to get born-again, or if they already are, they need to read the Scriptures correctly.
It's not just one denomination or one group of people who've been taken in by that kind of thinking. The icon of the Seventh-Day Adventists has duped people for a long time, and even some who say they're Christians have been duped or tempted by those cultists. If one is following the Lord, they'll go by the true message of the Bible, which says be ready for when the Lord comes, but don't even try to pinpoint the time.
Surely, I don't. The largest tsunami in recent history, Indonesia, killed 250,000 people. 9/11 killed less than 10,000, yet is a global front of war. This doomsday prophet just destroyed the lives of literally 50 million from California to Manila. So much for melodrama, and earnesthubs "mega-lo-mien" noodle soup.
Even still, the question remains what are you going to do to help these people. Both sides of the coin. These are the same people you call brothers/sisters in "Christ". Who evoke "Jesus, Jesus! Thank You Jesus, Hallelujah, Praise you, Jesus!" And READ THE SAME BIBLE as you; the same Rapture, Hell, Fire, Brimstone idea as you. What are you going to do to help besides cough up a 37 second remembrance prayer and go about your merry way?
And equally, what are atheists going to do besides, "Well sorry, you made the bed, you sleep in it, ha-ha. What a bunch of dumb[blip]s!".
Now would be a good time to pull out that "get out of humanism free card" ...
While I do have a problem with anyone being able to put up a huge road sign that names a specific date for the "end of time", and while it's horrid to see the effects that cult leaders have on people, again I ask, James, just what do you mean that those people's lives were destroyed?
And again I say, they should be taught the truths of the Bible. The Bible can be understood in a common-sense way. And there WILL come a time of the end of the world. They should be warned about that! But warned truthfully.
"Get out of humanism free card"??
Jesus offers a "Get out of hell free" card, if anyone chooses to accept it....
I did not open this thread for you to post pseudo plastic possibilities Brenda,
I merely and humbly asked : "What are YOU going to do to help these people".
As a believer, these are YOUR brothers/sisters in "Christ". They are about to suffer a worse fate than death. A fate of total spiritual meltdown, social embarrassment and no doubt mental depression.
Their lives were destroyed by the selling off of everything they possessed - to post billboards, subway signs, etc --even so far as to fund "The End Of The World Sale" at huge department stores ( I saw these billboards myself here in NY ) and the complete belief in this mans BIBLICAL PROOF, CHAPTER AND VERSE of said apocalypse.
The destruction of the Japanese earthquake consuming land and a mere 8,000 lives, 9/11 consuming 14 buildings in all and the lives of a mere 8350, the tsunami that covered Indonesia, killing a mere 250,000 people and the Iceland eruption distorting traffic, pales in comparison to this singular global catastrophic prediction. A prediction that has left some 50 MILLION souls awash in despair, fear, agony, embarrassment, financial ruin, mental depression and a host of other atrocities.
and all you and the atheists offer is either bible or 'sorry, better luck next time'.
So, again, without your invocation, please due me the fair honor, as I would you, of simply answering the question --what are you going to do to aide these people, beyond a 37 second prayer?? What are the atheists going to do also to help these people.
You crow Jesus provides a get out of 'Hell Free Card', but these people are not in hell, they are next to you and all around you...
Superiority/inferiority is the entitlement
to wealth, power and exploitation.
What never fails to suprise me, is the amount of people who believe what another human being tells them! how on Earth did he 'know' the world was coming to the end with the Rapture? If Jesus stood in front of you and said it, fine! but another human being? unbelievable! every body has the same brain, the same body and the same thinking process where it comes to God or anything else. Nobody knows. Full stop! very strange.
Nicely stated James. It would be nice to be able to be there for any of those people now.
I don't know a soul that fell for that. But if I did, I probably would have invited them to dinner; or called. Anything to get their minds off of the embarassment of being taken in by that nonsense.
Other than that, what can you do?
Isn't it obvious? How about educating folks that indoctrinated belief systems are dangerous to mankind and societies?
How many more examples and how many centuries are we going to allow to continue this madness?
Within a society that cherishes the belief in freedom of religion, I would venture to guess the education must begin within those particular institutions and organizations within Christianity that teach this insanity. They begin instilling beliefs years before the process of public education begins. So, to me, the answer is not obvious at all. Unless you are suggesting we all become ordained in the fundamentalists faiths and gather a 'flock'?
That would be the best place to start, to begin educating in the process of indoctrination and the harm it causes to the developing mind. By the time public education begins, the mind is not prepared for logical thought.
We are obviously in agreement, but the attempt to alter this process was your suggestion. How would you advocate society proceed?
Like any other public awareness program, you keep getting it out there with facts and evidence to support it. Of course, the vast majority of the public is highly offended by such suggestions as they are fervent believers and refuse to acknowledge their own indoctrinations.
However, this is what Dawkins, Downey, Kurtz, Randi and a host of others are currently doing.
I have a 5 year old granddaughter who carries the sword of logos and is not afraid to use it!
She constantly pulls adults up when they say things that are not logical.
My gkids have not been indoctrinated though, so their capacity to think for themselves is intact.
Christians everywhere believe in the story of Noah and the Flood. And also of the various other stories written in the bible of prophesies and other "truths". But, when someone prophesies' today even the christians say they are foolish. If we are to follow things as the bible has put them...then those in the time of Noah are the to be compared with those today who mock those who prophesies...What if this was indeed true and the world actually did end with the "rapture". Those who mocked this "prophet" as being false, surely would not have been counted as those being chosen. So I wonder...do those who claim to believe...actually believe...or is it something that is said to elevate themselves above others...
My sincere apologies for whatever crassness appeared in my post. But not so often I reach limits when it comes to being forced to deal with the failure of humanism and a huge lack of compassion by humans for their fellow man. An action of compassion v word salad.
Yes, Bailey, nearly 50 million worldwide either nodded in agreement, hoped it was true or took odd action, based on this mans radio addresses.
The aftermath, and the continued lead-on over the next 6 to 10 months is going to be a very difficult time for them to recover -- much like Haiti and New Orleans are still recovering from natural devastation. The difference, material buildings, possessions, bank accounts can be rebuilt, quite easily. Mental, emotional and spiritual devastation cannot.
I am working on a solution, as I hope any believer, post-believer or non-believer would take the boldness to do also. Let's use our intelligence to compile a worthwhile immediate and perhaps localized solution, depending on where you live, to assist.
I agree. These people will need a lot of support and the best way would be at a local level.
One person (a Minister I think) is doing just that at the headquarters in America, but this is a worldwide problem and the welfare of children is at stake here too.
CultWatch had a decent set of advice for Camping's followers: http://losangeles.ibtimes.com/articles/ … lowers.htm
It's pretty horrifying the lengths to which some of them went. I read a BBC article that quoted a retired NY transportation worker who'd spent $140,000 of his savings buying billboards and stuff, and there was an article in the NYT yesterday about a family where the parents had become convinced their teenage children were all going to Hell because they didn't believe. Awful.
I'm not sure why people don't see a pattern.
Says the 89 year old Harold Camping: "The Rapture is coming this year."
Says the 85 year old Tim LaHaye: "The Rapture is coming soon...but not this year."
Jerry Falwell predicted 1999, when he would be 66 (he died 7 years later).
Martin Luther predicted 1546, the year he ended up dying at age 62.
All of these people want to be around for the drama. They desperately want to be rewarded before their biological time is up. The closer they are to their own death, the more likely they're absolutely, positively sure the end is nigh.
I saw a funny billboard the other day, put up by a secular/atheist group, that said 2000 years of "Any day now"...
James - People will hopefully get the evidence enough to disprove their own delusions. Sometimes taking a step back and looking at the real evidence, and not the fearmongering propaganda they're being fed, is what it takes to reclaim their own dignity.
In a way, a world did end, and the "false prophet" became the real messenger. The world culture is evolving and it seems we are the generation that will see that transformation.
The Rapture as was described by Jesus in the gospels have been over-evangelized, when as the gospel says, "this generation would not pass until that has happened" meaning it was a message for people at that time. The truth is, the rapture has happened in the time after the death of Christ. The reforms that the movement called for spread across Europe. Many were killed and brutalized until Rome itself became Christianized as political move towards more power and control.
While Jesus was speaking of events that he can predict is happening without that cultural context, I believe it was more sensing an evolution of collective mind. He did aim to that. "I do not in peace, rather division. i want to separate the duaghters from their mothers and sons from their fathers." "You cannot put new wine in old wine skins" as a reference to the metaphor of wine and intellectual substance that was commonly used in his time. He was a reformer who disagreed with ritualistic and tribal understanding of the Torah. The conservatives considered him a dangerous man with dangerous ideas. From a historical point of view, it is quite clear why the Pharisees would have him killed. He was going to take away business that went to the direction of rabbis whose main livelihood was from animal sacrifice consecrations. (see you cannot eat an animal unless it has been blessed by the priest..then the priest gets a portion of the kill)
The rapture became an archetypal phenomenon. People who want to escape their suffering gravitate to such stories. They are expressing their unconscious desire to end a way of life that no longer feels right. But they are unable to because they do not know how.
"end of the world" is a mass delusion, distorting a call for change in the way we think and live.
what I would do about that is to continue to make available new ways that people could make sense of what they want in life, what their strengths are and provide avenues for recognizing accountability. Point out the symbolisms that drew them to
believe such things as end of times. Insanity is afterall, the way the unconscious
takes over the conscious so that it will attend to the needs of the psyche.
I am all for this.
Empty the vessel and really begin the transformation. I most definitely agree we -this generation- are apart of that transformation. Not to sound cliche, but the sigma are everywhere. I believe ministries confused it and science eludes it.
As am sure you, me and few others in here can agree, this series of events is nothing like most predicts: by rapture, consuming the land once theirs, genocides, escape pods to mars nor nuclear proliferation. A transfer of power, yes, from ethereal aesthetic ethics to tangible altruism and experiential faith.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
We need to take into account the parable of the fig tree, which in light of means: the generation that saw all those things... not the generation standing there at the time. Did they see the sun darkened and the moon not giving her light and the stars of heaven fall? No. Did the sign of the son of man in heaven appear, did they see him come in clouds of glory, were the elect gathered from the ends of the earth? Quite the opposite.
So the generation that jesus was talking to was not the generation that he was referring to.
So likewise when ye shall SEE all these things,.... not a evolution of collective mind.. a literal SEEing.
Heaven and earth shall pass... end of the world, not mass delusion.
Of course there is no rapture so all discussions about rapture are moot anyway.
i recognize those symbols from jewish mysticism. the sun and moon are aspects of consciousness as well symbols for jewish things. the moon, which is the shekina is the people of Israel. It is warning of dark times that was going to come politically. Stars are guiding light, meaning the Jewish people will be lost. And the son of man or more precisely, the SON OF HUMANITY meaning the evolved man will emerge from this...so yes it has happened, right after his death. He did see it coming. The Christian hazing was instrumental to a change in the western world. rapture's done. Now let's worry about what the Mayans are saying.
This could be sarcastic, but when I said you were funny, I wasn't mocking you. I really thought the Harvard phrases were spot on. You got that right sort of funny.
Get outta my head!
Even still perfectly said. Most do not understand Hebrew and certainly Hebrew mysticism and symbols. Explains why they do not understand John's Letter of Revealing, much of the dialog of Torah, but rather see it as a selective doomsday catalog.
Humanity will evolve into the righteousness -it is inevitable. This is the covenant. The weak in faith will inherit the dust they came from. The righteous will live, be glorified (caught up; in the clouds) even as the Firstborn, instantly when they seize to live by limitation or lack, and accept who/what they were created to be ( aka in the blink of an eye).
The problem with some people here is that they think it's my interpretation. But the "The Son of Humanity" is a translation by a biblical scholar who translated the Gospel of Thomas. I used to have that book when I was in my 20s. It was this author that opened my mind about Hebrew and the differences of contexts.
This is a person who is not at all religious and who even said that The Kingdom of G-d" was not a kingdom, as in a physical geographical kingdom. Because Kingdom and Reign is the same word in Hebrew.
I understand this because Tagalog is the same "Hari" is a Sanskrit word. "Kaharian" means both Reign and Kingdom. Just as Ha-adam is both Adam, and and Man but not just man, humanity.
The Son of Humanity is very very different from the son of G-d, which has totally greek in interpretation that is so different from the Hebrew meaning which means, a sorcerer. The Son of G-d as defined by Greek tradition is he who rises above the challenges of the gods-- A hero with transcendent influence to the fate of man.
Not at all the son of a floating person in the sky with zapping powers and is invisible.
"G-d" as understood by the Jews,the learned Jews is a being more abstract and philosophical than the watered down version today.
I know right, its scary sometimes...did we happen to read the same things?
Also chuckling at the "Invisible Zapper" point.
No doubt, we might have both read same material.
Plus, just my brain at work. "Cut of the same clothe" or to be more cliche "Chips off the new block".
Once again the point is missed.
The problem is not with Christianity or indoctrination. Its with the people who lead about people, who are unable to discern the truth because of their unbelief. Yes, unbelief: not that are complete unbelievers but they lack the kind of belief that makes them strong and knowledgeable.
Myself being grounded in the Word had no chance at all of being caught up in this laughable date of rapture.
The problem is with the people and the pastor of this particular sect.
So to all the people that say we should now get rid of religion again, i say, no. People who don't go to Harvard will remain unemployed behind the Harvard people; so do we get rid of Harvard university? As in all things there are good and bad schools of every area. For all the number of people, myself included, Christ is amazingly wonderful and the good God does still far outweighs the harm that a few cults full of weaklings present.
Its a shame there is 'damage' done, but i will think much Godly good will come of this. The people will find another pastor, another church and 'up their game'.
I mean really, predicting the rapture is not even a diabolical deception, a babe in Christ could see this for what it is.
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