Interesting article. Some rational, clear points are made. It ought to be the basis for a lot of upheaval here....
Here is a bit of the article:
"There Are 10 Times As Many Atheists as Mormons: When Will Non-Believers Become a Political Force?
The rise of atheists as political players would have positive effects on American society and possibly even the world as a whole.
The propagandists of the religious right shout it aloud as their battle cry: "America is a Christian nation!" And in the trivial sense that ours is a nation populated mostly by Christians, this is true. But in the sense they mean it, that Christianity was intended to occupy a privileged place in the law -- or worse, that Christianity was intended to be the only belief professed by Americans -- it couldn't be more false. Although religion in general and Christianity in particular, play a dominant role in our public life, ours is a secular nation by law. And befitting that heritage, America has always played host to a lively tradition of freethought, unorthodoxy and religious dissent, one that dates back to our founding generation.
To name just one example, Thomas Jefferson rejected miracles and special revelation -- he famously created his own version of the New Testament, which kept only the moral teachings and parables and cut out all the miracle stories -- and encouraged his contemporaries to "question with boldness even the existence of a God."
The rest of the article is here:
http://www.alternet.org/news/151267/the … t_politics
"But in the sense they mean it, that Christianity was intended to occupy a privileged place in the law -- or worse, that Christianity was intended to be the only belief professed by Americans -- it couldn't be more false"
That is so far from how most Christians in America think of us as a Chrstian nation it isn't funny. i tis actually a pethetic attempt at understanding how we see America.
No wonder the Left cannot grasp what American Christians want, and think.
Apparently only some conservative Christians continue insist Jefferson was a Christian. He professed plainly that he was not, but rather professed himself as a Deist. I wonder why you cannot accept what he claimed himself to be as truth? Insistence on your behalf doesn't make it true, as I'm sure you are aware.
No matter how much you want America to be a Christian nation, doesn't necessarily make it one. There are MANY Christians in this country to be sure, but there are also MANY other belief systems in place in this country as well. The more you refuse to accept what reality is, the more it makes you look a fanatic, and very unaccepting of people of different ideologies and beliefs. That only sets you up as intolerant, does it not?
You needn't worry too much. Atheists are not an organization or of any particular political allegiance.
As a rule most atheists believe in a separation of church and state for the protection of religion as well as protection of those who lack belief. It benefits us all.
What there should be a return to is the idea that religion is a private matter.
It should also be the business for all theists and all atheists to make sure a separation of church and state is upheld and strong, against fundamentalist factions who would destroy it for their own gain.
So rather than fighting, Christians and atheists should work together to preserve the protection and freedom of everyone.
I enjoyed the article. I wasn't aware of the incident in the Dole campaign; but I'm not surprised. It wasn't unreasonable for the Dole camp to think the attack would help her candidacy.
But, if he wants to create a political force, it appears that the first thing that needs to be done is remove the stigma associated with the word atheist. The other 10.4% don't count if they don't identify themselves as atheists.
It's funny, because by almost every definition of the word I would be an atheist, but it isn't a word I would use to identify myself. It is too extremist, in my mind.
The word itself is a religious construct.
Maybe that is the reason for my aversion. But I've been thinking about this, ever since I saw the question earlier. I've been wishing, for years, that someone would form a third party. I've got problems with both the Democrats and the Republicans.
This atheism thing could be the ticket. I think their figures are off. I think there are a lot more people who share this philosophy of non belief than they think. I'd certainly be willing to listen if they came up with some plan.
I didn't know that about Thomas Jefferson. It just shows that even back then people weren't afraid to question religious dogma. This would suggest that there was more freedom of religious expression in America then, than there is today.
It is only a few years ago, that George Bush Snr. declared that an atheist cannot be a patriotic American. It would also be almost impossible for anyone to run for President, if they were an open atheist. Yet, atheists actually make up the second largest group of people in America, after the Christians. Far more than Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists or Muslims. Yet it seems that atheism is still the belief that dare not speak its name in your country. Here, in the UK, the situation is quite the opposite, and the freedom to express Christian views is being replaced by the growth in the secular nation, where most people have no religious experience.
It seems that whilst the rest of the Western world has been happy to shed its religious past, that for Americans it is as important as ever, with religious groups having political influence in government. Such a situation should be questioned, and American atheists should perhaps start coming out of the closet, and start standing up for their right to believe as they wish.
Obama shows many signs of not being a believer of much in religion, despite that he was a member of a Christian congregation, whose minister came under severe attack for his comments. At that point, he distanced himself from that church. There isn't another syllable about what his religious views are, if any, at this point. The writing on the wall is that he is either agnostic or atheist. His views are a world view. That's fine until you get into a world order, which he shows definite signs of leaning toward.
Opinions do not necessarily equal fact. Opinion polls do not necessarily equal fact. I think during this next campaign that conservative Christian America will make its usual presence, but I also think that people of other belief systems are going to want to be heard and make more noise.
If you do some research you will see that most politicians nowadays are involved in the secret society of Illuminati who worship Lucifer.
I think you need to have reputable citations in order to back this up.
Additionally, please provide reputable citations that the Illuminati are devil worshippers.
You can claim anything you want, but unless there is real evidence, you have nothing to add here.
I never said devil, I said Lucifer, which is the Sun they are sun worshipers, pagans so to speak, just in the closet. and as I said do some research.
Here's the results from my research...Traditionally, Lucifer (English pronunciation: /ˈluːsɪfər, ljuːsɪfər/) is a name that in English generally refers to the devil before being cast from heaven, although this is not the original meaning of the term. In Latin, from which the English word is derived, Lucifer means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). It was the name given to the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, which heralds daylight. For this meaning, English generally uses the names "Morning Star" or "Day Star", and rarely "Lucifer". Perhaps you should do some more research yourself.
This is one place to start....
http://www.kt70.com/~jamesjpn/articles/ … minati.htm
Tape 3A What is the Illuminati? CFR? Trilateral Commission, what 33rd. Degree Masons believe about Lucifer, etc! 43 minutes / 4.2 megabytes
Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub and the Devil are all the same thing to most everyone, except perhaps you. By implication alone, you are saying that the Illuminati worship Lucifer, which is the same as the Devil. They are all titles and names of one being, according to scripture.
I've done research on this subject, not exhaustive, but some. And because I haven't found what you are saying to be true, I've asked you for a reputable citation. If you have none, then I suspect this is your own opinion, and not based on any verifiable fact.
In Latin, from which the English word is derived, Lucifer means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). Wikipedia
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
Lucifer, (Latin: Lightbearer) Greek Phosphorus, or Eosphoros, in classical mythology, the morning star (i.e., the planet Venus at dawn); personified as a male figure bearing a torch Encyclopedia britannica
Ceyx, a king in Thessaly, was the son of Lucifer, the light- bearer,… Edith Hamilton's Mythology.
Well I do not know what illuminati worshiped, but the original name "Lucifer" is not for devil. In Hebrew bible, the original name is not even Lucifer, but signified some Babylonian king, which was a later mistranslated.
Ancient derivatives help to establish how it originated, but it does not account for present usage or connotations. Lucifer is STILL presently one of the names or titles of the Devil. Ancient story forms also say that he was a "son of light" and fell from grace to become the Devil. That's pretty much understood. So what you are offering is very helpful. Thanks.
I am sure there are plenty of closeted atheists in positions of power. They just know what they have to do to get elected by a religious majority.
Agreed. And I think Obama fits in this category nicely.
Sure he is! And you're the King of England!
No Earnest. I am independent American Conservative Christian. To hell with a king or queen. And do not get me started on England.
Bottom line, Obama is NOT a Muslim. Another famous rumor that rates with the birth certificate and aplogozing fro America. I personally think an ideal president would be an athiest (or at least a agnostic) with no friends. That way the president's judgment wouldn't be clouded with ancient myths and fairy stories. With no friends (or companies forking out big bucks for campagnes, he wouldn't owe anyone anything when he gets elected - which is one big thing going for Obama.
Please by all means get started, this should entertaining to those who live in the country, lol
Obama is not a Muslim. Why the religious right keeps shoving this fantasy around is obvious, but it only fools those looking for a reason to dislike the man.
I do not care he is a Muslim. I care that he lies about it. He was born the son of a Muslim, and by definition is a muslim. He has never renounced his Islam and he quotes the quran pefectly in arabic. He spent his childhood in a madrassa and that is not something you just put aside. And to top it odff there is no fatwa on his life which there would be if he was an apostate, that is Islamic law.
but if was was practicing tiqiyya and Kithman then he allowed to lie about his faith in order to advance Islam. Which is exactly what he is doing i the middle east and America. As his actions clearly show.
So... he is a Muslim. Too bad.
You have developed a very colorful character there. The avatar suits the rhetoric.
I didn;t write Islamic law... but I know what it is and what it says..,. so.
?... Islamic law is... and that is all there is to it. it doesn;t matter if you or I like their laws... they still are. So we should not ignore it.
By that philosophy, you'd be just as leery of christianity. Which you obviously aren't. Just admit it. You are prejudiced against Obama to the point that you'll go to extremes. Like you said yourself (at least before you deleted that portion of your comment) the truth is ugly; but it's the truth.
There are no laws in the words of Christ to stone hooms etc. that would be the old testament E. Christ taught toleration, not death to those you do not agree with.
Ahh. Trying to pull a slick one on me. But Christians use both the Old and New Testament. So, on that point you've mispoken. Plus Christian history is fraught with examples of the use of Old Testament laws. The only thing that keeps some of them at bay now are the secular laws of this country. You proved that yourself with the views you stated on the other thread. Very old school of you.
Come on Mr. Mason. Say it with me. You just don't like Obama. You're grasping a reasons to justify not liking him.
No E Christians live by the words of Christ and the New Testament, the Old is the historic foundation of our religions birth and growth.
We have two commandments from Christ which encompuss all the old ones. -Love the Lord thy god above all others, and Love One Another as I, Christ, have loved you.- If you do that you fulfill all the commandments of God.
We use the Old for holy days and the understand the growth of our religion and the promise of fulfillment of certain prophecies, etc. But we do not follow the old Jewish laws.
And that is a fact E, no slickstering here.
And no, I do not like Obama for his policies and his lies. That is the truth of it. And you need to understand that toleration... and acceptance, are two very different things. i can tolerate your immorality, but I cannot accept it as normal and acceptable. I can let you live your own life... but that doesn't mean you get to teach my kids to act in your immoral ways without me speaking out against it.
They just say you quoted the quoran out of context didn't you know?
Read some early paara.
You know, just like biblical religionists do when someone quotes the psychotic rhubarb in the OT.
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
What else ya gonna do with s*it like that but say it's been quoted out of context?
What quote? Who E? i have not said that at all.
I am saying that when you point out the hate and intolerance threats and plain old madness in the quoran, the muslims, such as paara will tell you that it is all love and you quoted it out of context cos you are evil.
I also said that the same tactic is used by biblical religionists when the same horrible crap is quoted from the bible. OK?
Well I didn't use that excuse... I cannot say why God made the laws he did back then and had the punishments as harsh as he did. I wouldn't even try... ut I would think it had something to do with teaching us, like spanking children. But I live by the Christian doctrine and that us not the old testament, as I said above. But ya, that is paas running line... is he still around?
Gee MTMason. I was born to Catholic parents, does that make me a Catholic? NO! Do I go to a Catholic Church? NO! Do I believe that Jesus is the son of God? NO! I tell people that I'm not Catholic, so I guess that means that I'm not Catholic.
If you were Born to a Jewish woman, you would be a jew. If born to a Muslim, you are a Muslim. As far as Catholics, I would think they would have raised you catholic, and then let you decide on your own. It is not a strange concept... not too hard to understand. Islam is alot more serious than Catholicism in its adherance to its doctrines.
And you can get mad all you want... some people, especially Muslims, take their religion dead serious. So scream all you want it doesn't win a debate.
It appears that only christians aren't labelled for life according to the re;ligion of their parents.
That's really illogical thinking, I believe. What you're saying is that whatever way we grew up, we are consigned to for the rest of our lives. I grew up a conservative Christian but I no longer believe. So what you're saying is that I'm still a Christian because I grew up as one. You may claim you're not saying this, but you just did in regard to Obama. So by your own rationale, it must be true of me.
And it's the furthest thing from the truth.
Not at all dan. Another who read and inteprets as they feel to, without comprehending a damn thing.
Muslims and Jews are born into their religion. And you apostate at some point if you no longer want to be a part of it. It is another of those simple concepts.
I honestly don't get how you can claim to be a "loving" Christian and spew such continuous vitriol and hate for humanity. How can you say that you are a Christian and follow Jesus when your writings and attitudes here at HP seem to be so completely opposite of that? Or do you really believe that Jesus hated the world but only loved a few of us?
At this point, I'm not sure I want an answer. It's just going to be another hate-filled response, I suspect.
Anyway, I have no ill will for you. I disagree with you as a matter of principle, but I also think that agreeing to disagree can be acceptable. I'll just leave it at that and call it quits.
Whatever dan... I do not spew hate. I speak what I mean plainly. Too bad if you do not like it. Yes you say what you want then make like your the good guy... what a joke.
Your mad because religions are not what you think they are. Islam is a babaric religion and Christ doesn't tell me to call a murderer a saint... that would be PC that says that.
Your opinion of Islam are based on absolutely no knowledge of true Islam... and that is what makes them worthless and dangerous. I on the other hand can support everything i say with Quranic doctrine and the hadith and islamic scholars.
Facts are facts.
And yes Muslims can leave Islam, it is called apostasy and it earns you a fatwa of death o your head if you do not reclaim your Islam. And that is straight from the Qu'ran.
Exactly. It's the same moot issue as Obama's birth certificate, which many extremist Christians still believe is a fake, somehow. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, these people have decided for themselves regardless of any basis of fact.
A reputable citation is in order here. Otherwise, it's just conjecture.
As I said, it's documented throughout the media that he was once a member of a Christian congregation with a renegade minister. He distanced himself from all that. Many believe that he positioned himself as a Christian to get the conservative Christian vote, but that rather backfired because of his minister's antics. So since then, there is more evidence of him not being religious at all. His family, by tradition may have been muslim, but there is no present evidence that he in any way supports that religion or any other. The reason is because he promotes a progressive world view which is nearly always anti-religion.
I'd run with that too.
Far to bright to be a religionist.
It should be known by now that you can't get a job in America if you don't claim to believe in the invisible force, let alone the top job.
Are personal insults not hateful, or do you just consider the delivery more 'spitting' than 'spewing'?
Is calling a major world religion "barbaric" not hate because you think some people "deserve" to be hated so that is okay?
Speaking the truth is harsh and painful to those who wish not to hear it, but it is not hate. And you Leftists/ and others (you know who u are), speaking about me attacking you, is just too funny. But that is usually the way it goes when someone starts something that cannot finish and loses the fight, or debate, ... ohhh he started it, he abused me... whaa...
I can pretty much garauntee that any thread you see me attack in, if you look to the previous comments you will see I was attacked also. It comes with being a Conservative on Hubs.
Morals can be defined as anything that has helped better humanity. Since religion generally teaches how to live a moral life, that would be the preferred way to live. However, an atheist would be preferred over anyone that teaches intolerance and tries to divide humanity through religion.
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