People claim to have experinced miracles especially unsual experinces. It means that there are some supernatural things we can not explain. some christains still belief in miracles while others say the days of miracles are over. People claim to perform miracles like healing among others. In the bible some miracles like feeding of the 5000, walking on water, dividing the red sea among others were recorded.Some people were call Great Magician because they did similar supernatural things so how do we draw line
"It means that there are some supernatural things we can not explain"
No it means that we don't know everything. What people claim has absolutely nothing to do with the supernatural things existing - they will claim anything and everything and have done so repeatedly.
Most claims are outright fraud, but many are simply due to ignorance as well. We don't know everything and can't explain everything, but that doesn't make it supernatural any more than the stunts by street magicians are actually supernatural "magic".
A line between miracle and magic? Excluding the "magic" of entertainment performers (that is not what you refer to) there is no line. Both simply denote ignorance. Both are explainable with enough knowledge. Neither has anything to do with the supernatural or failure to follow the natural laws of the universe.
We have seen through the centuries cases by the thousands totally debunked with an increasing knowledge base. There is no real reason to expect that the continuing flood of crazy, bogus claims to the contrary won't someday also be fully understood and explained.
Wow - I dropped back into this thread to say pretty much what you said - thanks for saving me the trouble
Fraud and ignorance may be behind a large percentage of so-called magic or miracles, but you're claiming universal knowledge or omniscience when you say that "both simply denote ignorance."
I've experienced a few minor miracles. I say "minor" because they didn't change the course of history or re-arrange the constellations, but any circumvention of physical law is anything but minor. It means that the true, spiritual self is awakening.
Yes, thousands may have been debunked, but not all. Such circumvention of nature is only possible because we are inherently not of this physical realm. If we were purely and only physical, then such things would be impossible. The physical body or ego cannot do such things, but can only follow the same laws as rocks and planets.
So, my omniscient one. You missed a few. There is no line between "magic" and "miracle," true. But there is a very large line between creation and delusion -- bliss and oblivion.
As I say, there have thousands of bogus claims over the years - I guess one more claim of violating the laws of physics won't make much difference.
Hopefully it is merely ignorance of the actual mechanism of your "miracle" and not outright fraud that produces such a claim. Or, if neither is true, it would be wonderful if you would repeat it a few times for study and understanding by everyone. It would certainly open a whole new world for mankind to work at understanding. No one else has ever managed to do that (at least without being debunked) - you would be the very first in all of man's history to actually substantiate such a thing rather than simply say the words.
2 thumbs up Wilderness!
.....couldn't'a said it better myself! :
How do you draw the line between the "crazy guy" on the corner with a sign that says "repent now, for the the world is going to end" and the "good wholesome christian" knocking on your door saying "Do you know Jesus, and repent for the world is going to end."
Why would we try to know David, when neither has anything to do with "reality?"
I do like Criss angel and David Blaine.
Our fertile imaginations hard at work confusing us and having fun.
Miracles are attributed to mystical properties.
Magic can be explained for the most part.
Magic is an illusion, in my opinon a form of satan because of the decieving. Miracles are a form of good like a sign from God.
I daresay that it if your slaves were escaping and the sea opened up to allow it that you would not consider it a miracle. Just an illusion.
Which, if there is any truth at all in the old tale, would be exactly what happened. Good call.
So let me get this straight: You are saying that magic only looks real because it is created by a real supernatural creature that makes fake magic, but that real magic is actually real because it is created by another super natural creature that makes actual magic, the distinction being the word choice, and "miracle" being the word for real magic. Am I getting that right?
How would you be able to tell the difference from when Satan was deceiving you, and when someone was just being clueless or stupid? Likewise, what separates a "sign from God" and someone who's suffering from mental illness?
Satan is always deceiving that's why we have to second asks ourselves what is real and whats not. There are people out there who need guidence and are clueless it is up to us to help see those people through. A true sign from God is just known. We have to remember where all the power is. God is the alpha and omega, the beginning and end. A person with mental illness needs to pray for things to be shown to them correctly. With God all things are possible. Doubting that will open doors for Saran to enter.
Miracles are just that, you can't explain a phenomenon at that time, who knows, it can never be explained or can be explained due to development in Science
Magic are just tricks, illusions...it is an art of "illusions"
Magicians are talented individuals, magic can deceive your eyes
Magic is carnival magicians, but it is also
things like rubbing sticks together and making it rain. It is done by people. Miracles might be said to emanate from the other side, usually called God or some intercession from a spiritual source.
One definition of "magic" from online (www.theFreeDictionary.com) says, "The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural."
What typically passes for "magic" is what might more properly be called "illusion" by an "illusionist." This is the trick or sleight of hand that so-called "magicians" do for entertainment. "Gee, how did he do that?"
A definition of "miracle" from the same source says, "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." From the standpoint of the above definitions, "magic" and "miracle" look a lot alike. Both circumvent nature by some supernatural force.
Drawing a line between these two might be arbitrary and based purely on which definitions you prefer to use.
But there is likely one distinction one might make in the realm of magic or miracles: motivation.
Anyone who discovers the "secret" of creation can do magic or miracle for selfish purposes or for altruistic (unselfish) purposes. One such purpose might be to help other spiritual beings awaken, while the other, darker purpose might be to help ego gain earthly things (pride, power, influence, etc).
Some people confuse ordinary (natural) things as "miracles" -- a baby born to a 60-year-old woman, or an incredibly beautiful sunset. I would call these "ordinary miracles." And why not call them a "miracle" if someone feels strongly enough. I wouldn't want to rain on their enthusiasm.
But "extraordinary miracles" will bend, break or otherwise circumvent the laws of nature. For instance, Peter walking on water to meet his Master on the Sea of Galilee. This confounds perhaps gravity and/or surface tension of the water. And it likely ignores the tossing waves, too.
We all have this ability; we're just asleep to that fact. In the Judeo-Christian ethic, the source of this ability is documented in Genesis 1:26 -- that man was created in the image of God. We're not talking Homo sapiens or even ego, here. This is the spiritual, true self (the "soul").
And I happen to have some minor experience with such things. Imagine that. Yes, miracles still do occur, even in this modern era. It's sad that so many Christians refuse to believe such things are possible, because the founder of their religion encouraged them to do such things and even greater.
It's unfortunate that you didn't document your miracles. Good, solid documentation would have set both the religious and scientific worlds on their collective ears and could well have convinced thousand of atheists to become Christian. Perhaps next time you will keep this in mind? With an eye towards reproducing it for the unfaithful?
Ah, but I did document it. You presume too much. It may not be "good" or "solid" by your standards, but the documentation is in one of my hubs.
Thank you for your thoughtful concern, but reproducing it for the unfaithful would indeed be casting pearls before the unworthy.
Contrary to the methodology of science, creation is only performed with confidence (not the doubt found in skepticism).
Alas, scientists who have tried to make remote viewing work for the CIA were tossing sodium chunks in their aqueous solutions messing up the experiment royally. That was their own spiritual "thumb" on the scale. For scientists studying fire, this is them tossing a bucket of water on the flame. Not very bright. There is a certain logic and elegance to creation, but it takes more than you're currently willing to give.
That is why the "unfaithful" will never "get it." Creation demands faith (pure, 100% confidence, but also utter humility). The results are instantaneous every time. With doubt, you get the status quo of physical reality. Gee, aren't you powerful. "Look, ma. More reality!"
Got it?... Maybe not.
And don't worry lonestar,
Just change the name of "god' to "big bang", most atheist(especially Beel) will concur with you!!
They all, like you, believe in magic. They all "believe" nothing can suddenly get length, width and height to be something. They all believe "invisible" stuff like black hole and dark energy exist. They all believe "concepts" can move "mountains"!!
More likely, it perpetuates a myth rather than circumventing the laws of nature or confounding gravity.
No, we do not have the ability to confound gravity or other such things.
Thanks, Beelzedad. I appreciate your insight, your love, respect and wisdom. Your omniscience speaks volumes.
There once was a blind person who did not believe in color. When someone who purported to be able to see, described a sunset, the blind person knew that such things were impossible. The supposedly "sighted" person could not deliver the object for the blind person to touch. But sunsets are beyond touch. And the blind person went confidently on their way, secure in their knowledge that color was impossible.
Wow, is that your favorite phrase? So, you're a copy and paste kinda guy?
And what an interesting name! I believe in evolution, too. What a coincidence.
Those who refuse to look will not see. It's really that simple. That applies equally to Fundamentalist Christians and gleefully egotistical skeptics, too.
And why are you even here, Mr. Guy? To discuss these ideas with an eye on learning something or sharing important wisdom, or are you merely stroking your ego?
For me, I like learning. My ideas of reality and the universe are not calcified into a rigid idee fixe. Are yours? I keep learning from Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, but also astronomers, mathematicians, geologists, and more.
But even some scientists have calcified mentalities, judging subjects without the usual due process of in-depth research. Take the "Clovis first" debacle, for instance. What a joke. Lead scientists looked more like high priests, while other scientists were afraid to dig below the Clovis horizon. Oooo! They might find something there which threatened the Clovis dogma and their careers. How thoroughly Dark Ages, and this was what?... a decade ago?
You know something, Mr. Guy? You and some of your Troll buddies look just like the Clovis "high priests," at least in one respect. Disbelieving anything that does not fit your rigid belief system. Your "faith" is misplaced. And your arrogance holds it in place.
Perhaps, Mr. Troll Guy, you can add something of value to this discussion, rather than adding smug, self-serving troll-speak.
That would be imminently cool.
(BTW, we're talking about magic and miracles.)
As far as covert hostility goes, this one seems to be bordering on hysterically overt!
Why am I a troll because I think your religion is nonsense and causes conflicts? You do not believe in evolution so please stop lying at me.
You believe god dunnit - which means you do not "believe" in evolution. Evolution requires no god. And - in fact - if a god guided the process, this negates all knowledge we have of the way evolution works.
How funny that you think you believe in the 100% natural, unguided process of non-random natural selection based on adaptation to random unplanned changes with no pre-determined developmental goal. Because you think god dunnit with majik. God and evolution (unless God started it and walked away to see what happened) are incompatible. And you think Jesus did majik for us? And you think you dun majik? There are no miracles or majik.
I see just fine thank you. It is condescending, holier-than-thou statements from religionists like you that start all the problems.
You are not privy to esoteric knowledge that I refuse to see. It is simply not there. You believe nonsense.
That argument is fallacious. The sunset can be verified scientifically and corroborated by many others. Light sensors can turn electromagnetic radiation into audible wavelengths for the blind man to hear.
If you god created the sunset and he created blind men who know gods creations are impossible, is that also a valid argument? Can you explain why god would do that?
Is that your best shot?
Beeze, it wasn't even an argument, so how can it have been a fallacious one? Duh!
It was merely a story about someone who is fixed in their belief and nothing could shake them from it, not even a beeping audible wavelength. Some people will not believe no matter what "proof" is offered them. Your conversion of electromagnetic radiation into audible sounds is a bogus proof to my blind man. Just as my Miracle on Wilshire Boulevard falls on deaf ears with the troll crowd.
I have to ask you the same question. Is that your best shot?
I've studied superheterodyne receivers in electronic engineering, I've pondered emission and absorption spectra in astrophysics, and I've tracked down dozens of software bugs as a software engineer. I can think of a few ways to create such an electromagnetic to audio translator, but I cannot think of any way to break down someone's prejudicial attitudes toward certain subjects.
I even had Evolution Guy telling me that I don't believe in evolution, which is entirely false. But I'm beginning to learn that there are many not-so-bright individuals on both side of the religion-science debate. Some of you trolls sound just as mentally-challenged as the Fundamentalist Christians. And that's a real waste of brain power.
I'd like to say it's been nice chatting with you, a troll is what a troll does. And that's not nice at all.
You say that as though you have been offering proof. How funny.
Go on - show me some proof.
So - you no longer believe we were created with a purpose? And you reject the notion of sin? Is that true? Because I do not see how that fits with us becoming human during a process of non-random adaptation to random environmental changes and mutations over millions of years.
Color me confused. Well - actually - you are the confused one. How does evolution fit with your religious nonsense?
Thanks, E.G. If you were really interested in proof, would you be saying what you do? Is that a closed door I see? I discuss proof elsewhere, but I don't really think you're interested enough to look. That requires curiousity, and restraint from judging (some scientists actually do this).
It was a story, but it was story with an argument about someone who is fixed in their belief, yeah, I get that. However, the story was fallacious because the belief can easily be refuted. I suspect the story is about yourself and your unshakable beliefs?
Nonsense, the sun can be verified by a number of means, but your so-called miracle is just your irrational belief and can not only not be verified but it also violates the laws of nature.
Does the sun violate the laws of nature for the blind man?
Yet, that is something we see of you, despite your claims and feats of intelligence, which contradict every else you say.
Believing and understanding are two completely different things. If you understood evolution, your "prejudicial attitudes toward certain subjects" would most certainly change.
Thank you for the insults, I'm sure it took a great deal of your often claimed intelligence to come up with that.
Yes, I'm sure like many other believers, when your beliefs are shown to be false, you turn to calling us trolls.
And, that demonstrates in spades your observable intelligence as opposed to your claimed intelligence.
Which is that extra sense organ you got, with which you "see" god?
If your god(whatever that may be) exist, he should exist by the definition of 'exist', whether anybody believe or not has nothing to do with existence. Color does not exist. It is light that exist, and any normal human being can understand your explanation and all blind men do understand light!!
if your exist, just show a picture of him and tell what all things he can do, with out any contradictions.
Miracles are miracles, either because people are biased or somebody has not taken the pain to understand the phenomenon!
"From the standpoint of the above definitions, "magic" and "miracle" look a lot alike. Both circumvent nature by some supernatural force." Merely adopting a difference in terms of source, as the one or all. If they are going to be alike, then the one and all must be the same.
I agree with Lone77star that the line between magic and miracle depends on what we choose to call it and he we do not belief in the person that performed. For instance, some Jews said Jesus healed with the power of a strange God so to them its not a miracle. Magic is not the tricks people learn. CNN once document fighters in African conflicts that can ward off bullets without a bullet proof.I wrote a hub on such because others confirmed.It fact that most people do not believe what they just don't understand
I don't know enough about magic to comment on it. But doctors told me I would not be able to have biological children after my cancer treatments. I have two daughters. That, in my opinion, is a miracle.
Your case is no exception. Chemo-therapies, though destroy actively dividing cells, may not destroy every active cell(one reason why chemo fails, sometimes). Then it may be specific to some cancers. Doctors generally advice against pregnancy after some chemotherapy(usually it is 2-5yrs after chemo), is due to the teratogenic effects of some drugs. Again the effects vary from human to human, purely due to biological reasons, and not due to any miracle.
But to believe it as a miracle is your choice. When we get in real difficulties, most people call god. Even the hardest atheist may wish there were a god. The only difference, the atheist will recognize it as a wish, and adjust to reality(most of the time) while the either live in a false heaven, not a problem, as long as they don't try to proselyte because of their "experience"!
As I said, it's my opinion, nothing more. I see no reason why we shouldn't believe in miracles if we chose to. Of course, if you knew my oldest daughter, you'd be more likely to think she's a curse rather than a miracle...
This forum topic is a difficult one. I become frustrated when Christians who should believe in miraculous events do not. Part of this is caused by so many who have misused their gifts. The Bible warns that before Jesus returns there will be false prophets that will be able to perform miracles.
What we need to pray for is discernment in these matters. Matthew 24:24 warns of false prophets and Christs that, if it were possible, would deceive the elect. At the same time 2 Timothy 3:5 says these false people will have a form of godliness and yet DENY THE POWER OF IT.
Pray for the ability to discern. Jesus will guide you.
Earnesthub, just know that to dugde bullets and to be hit by a bullet and you don't get hurt is not same things. Do you know how we can dugde a fast bullet, as you claim people dugde bullets? I said of things that have been witnessed and CNN carried it. I even mentioned similar mystery in my hub on the ark of covenant.The point is that we can remain physical if we choose and we won't know any mystery while those few that choose to search the hidden treasures in the secret places knows what is and has been.
I said people survive bullet hit undamaged. CNN once reported it in an African conflict and the fact is that its a common experince in some African countries. They call it black magic or charms. so it depends on the most powerful charm. I trust you never seen a charm or believe it does any thing. White magic has it own charms and items. The point is that some things do happen which we can't explain and because you have not witenessed or believe or seen it does not mean it does not happen.
If it defies the law of physics it is myth. This defies the law of physics.
I know there are many unexplainable phenomina, except they are explainable if you want to know.
I have seen first hand people passing a spear through their face, in one cheek and out the other, that when removed left no mark
I also saw that they had been in a trance they had been preparing for over a few months.
The mind body connection is real enough, but the bullet thing is bulldust.
So, you say it was reported on CNN. In other words, they may have reported that someone practicing black magic in Africa claims to have not been damaged by a bullet. Of course, no such evidence of such a thing exists anywhere as it is quite obvious bullets damage humans.
So, more likely, the point is not to swallow everything you hear or read, especially when it makes no sense whatsoever.
That I mentioned CNN report on a war inside Africa does not mean that is the only place I heard of it. I have other facts yet I think every thing has a limit so does charms or magic so something can happen and it fail to function. You said, you witness someone perform an act with a spear which did not hurt him and you think Its physical even when you said he left his body or what? Is it easy to leave your body? One have to learn the secrets before it can be mastered and performed. So its not physical issue.
Magic is a trick while miracle is what happens very naturally but either humans could not do it or human knowledge has not yet reached to the level that it could explain it fully.
I see, and walking on water is perhaps from hyper-tachyon bursts from the hypothalamus, or some such? And Tibetan monks floating in air is from a cushion of these bursts from several monks in unison? You mean like science fiction? And how did the student, Peter, learn this technique for spraying such FTL particles in the right direction so that he could walk on water for a few moments? And his master, how did he learn such a technique so perfectly that he walked several kilometers through storm-tossed waves? And what does "doubt" have to do with hyper-tachyons? Hmmm-m-m. I think we need to call up Occam's razor to do a little magic on this convoluted line of reasoning.
To try to differentiate miracle and magic rests with the burden of proof. People say they experience miracles everyday, but can they prove that it's actually a miracle? Or is it simply a medical happenstance? Many call miracles "wishful thinking" but is it? We must first define what exactly is a miracle, and what exactly is magic. If we're talking biblical, then surely miracles and magic are two different things. I'm not sure exactly what kind of answer you are expecting from this question, but I can cite a passages from the Bible that clearly states the differences.
This is how it began. God sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and told them that if the
king demanded a sign -- a miracle -- then Aaron should throw down his walking stick
and it would turn into a snake. Aaron did, and it did, but Pharaoh’s magicians were
able to do the same thing by means of their magic. It was a good trick, but no more
than that -- a good trick.
And then, when Moses and Aaron produced the wonders of water turned to blood and
the plague of frogs, Pharaoh’s magicians were able to duplicate those feats, too. I have
always found it rather funny, funny and sad, that Pharaoh’s magicians seem so eager
to reproduce the plagues visited upon them:
So you can turn water into blood and make it stinky and undrinkable? Look!
We can make our water undrinkable too!
So you can put frogs everywhere -- in our beds and in our ovens and in our
cooking pans? That’s nothing! We can put frogs in our beds too!
It was turning into a magic contest, a battle of the sorcerers, until Aaron struck the
ground and the land of Egypt was filled with clouds of gnats, and there was nothing
the magicians could do to make any gnats appear. The magicians declared to Pharaoh:
God has done this! God has done this.
Were they convinced this must be God’s doing because it was something entirely
beyond their skill? Probably. The magicians were not able to reproduce the effects of
any other of the plagues and it seems that they even stopped trying. But it was not
merely that Moses and Aaron were better sorcerers or that their God possessed a
more powerful magic. The miracles that God performed in the sight of all Egypt were
of an entirely different character and substance than the magic of Pharaoh’s wise men
There is no record of any of these supposedly magical occurances in the well recorded history of the time by the Egyptians themselves - you would have thought they would have mentioned such amazing things happening in their lands ? But no mention at all among records of grain harvests, the annual flood levels etc, but no miracles, no dead firstborns, no slaves running away, no parting of seas or loss of armies - so maybe it is all fiction, just as all magic and miracle is either fiction or unusual natural events.
Well, history is usually written by the "winners", with a few embellishments to make it sound better, and that is what we have.
Nevertheless, I would have expected Egyptian writings to mention an entire race of slaves that was "let go free" because of their good work, or political infighting, or some other reason to present Egypt in a good light.
Like you said, Moses stood against the magicians in Egypt but that does not mean that Moses was using Miracle while others used magic. It was simply written because they writer disagreed with the power in Egypt. People still say that magic is trick and I just do not get the trick they talk about because there are tricks that are done to entertain people but that is not the magic we are talking about here.
Moses didn't use miracles? Parting the Red Sea was not "Miraculous" in nature?
Do you mean that the Egyptians do not have the parting of the red sea in their record and other events recorded in the bible? What about the records of Daniel in the den and the fire incident in Babylon? Is it miracle or magic or it never happened? If parting of the red sea is not miracle or magic what is it?
Many things in the bible were just figments of the imagination of the individual.
There is no supporting evidence outside the one book that any of the so-called miracles happened - even many of the key events are not mentioned anywhere else - including the existence of jesus himself. The other figures in the story are real enough as they are mentioned in other unrelated documents and there are inscribed statues etc - but the central character in your book has no supporting evidence. There were dozens of messiahs wandering around the Roman occupied states of the period - but none of them got a personal mention.
This does not mean jesus did not exist, or that miracles did not happen - but it does mean that the only place they are mentioned is in the one book, which kind of indicates that it is probably a work of fiction.
I am a little uncomfortable to see that there are people taking this question seriously. I get that some people believe in a god. A lot of people do. But, to believe in things that have never been proven to have happened and then go on to take the time to separate this fantasy into categories of miracle or magic; attributing some to a god and some to sorcery, is borderline insanity. It's no different from arguing if a Bigfoot and a Yeti are the same species. Neither exists.
Emile you said some people believe in God and it seems you are one of them. Doi you believe that Jesus did some miracles or you do not believe it because it cann ot be proved
I don't believe in any deity. I don't know that I believe in anything. As to claims made in the gospels, unfortunately it can't be accepted as anything more than hearsay.
I would be more than willing to accept documented evidence of a miracle when it becomes available.
I think some preachers still claim to perform miracles these days. Don't you watch "this is your day" by pastor Benny Hinn.
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