I've been messing about on the forums the last couple days conflicted as to whether or not I should post this. My mind is reluctant, but spiritually I am dying to know what this could mean.
Please bear with me, my phenomenology skills are rusty at best.
I know this wasn't a dream because I was well aware of being in my bed physically and was conciously awake. The most vivid (and I DO mean VIVID) images of violet and blue streams of atmosphere swirl through me as I float upwards into space. A wide green face appears before me and lets out what sounds like some electronic utterance. Its mouth opens and I get consumed by it and am immediately absorbed in light blue flashes of shapes and images.
The color finally stops and I am consumed in darkness. When I see light again I realize it is not space at all. I'm on the side of what appears to be a frozen cliff. You know like Ayer's Rock but frozen. Not that I'm cold or anything. I float up to the very top and am on top of this cliff. It doesnt feel like ice, feels kind of rubbery. But everything is white. The sky is white and the surface I am standing on is really white. And every time I move around on it the whiteness I'm standing in shifts in its shape. What seems like a moment later I come out of this trance or whatever it is with the overwhelming feeling that the shapeshifting whiteness that moved about under me was alive or concious. I also was convinced
I was an intruder in this 'place'. A harmless one perhaps, but an intruder nonetheless.
I don't think I've ever had an out of body episode, even now, but if anyone out there in Hubland can find some sense to make of this, I promise to try to be openminded.
This doesn't sound like an OBE to me. More like a vision. The couple of times I've had OBEs, I've stayed pretty close to my physical body. Visions are different, and they aren't necessarily related to our own experience. What it all means, I couldn't begin to guess, but you've definitely been shown something out of the ordinary!
You have seen the Three stages of reality.
Nothing, All things and in between ....
I would say that it would be wise to see two different doctors.
(a) a physician and physically have your head scanned.
(b) an eye doctor.
That's my only suggestions.
Thanks Cags, but I don't think it was a matter of optical vision. And by 'having my head scanned' do you mean a CAT scan? Not exactly the brand of advice I was anticipating but it does prepare me if people slightly less diplomatic than yourself start to show up on this topic.
I don't think he's being sarcastic. Maybe something is pressing on your optic nerve? Did this episode only happen once?
It happened this one time recently, but as a little kid I remember similar experiences, which were a mystery to me for years. As an adult this is the only such episode.
the brain can play bizarre tricks on you. There is a phenomenon where your body seems paralysed temporarily, but you are aware of your surroundings and experience weird sensations - caught part-way between sleep and awake.
I'd suspect food chemicals might have a part to play eg additives. Can give people weird dreams (sounds like this was an 'awake' dream/hallucination), like drug-users often experience
Definitely an awake dream. In fact, I was well aware I could just break off the concentration any time I wanted but just went with it. And I've had some bizarre sleep dreams but have faint or foggy memories of them. With this I can recall the images and the sequence exactly.
Jonathan there is a state of wakefulness called reverie which is a semi awake state where we can move in and out of otherwise unconscious processes, but I don't know the boundaries of it's scope. If you think this is a possibility it may be worth learning more about.
Some individuals have displayed some profound connections during this state and other states of consciousness as well. The scope may vary widely between individuals.
I've read some stuff about how some drug withdrawals involve hallucinations about insects crawling over their skin (and therefore they take more drugs to prevent these withdrawals).
Food chemicals can have unpleasant 'withdrawal' symptoms in some people too.
Earnest - you've experienced a NDE? Would you liken it to the state of when someone is waking up after surgery? The awareness etc?
No, not in my case. I have experienced NDE a couple of times, once on the operating table when I saw a white light that I moved through when I lost pulse and vitals, and again when I haemorrhaged deep in the wound and emptied of blood before they could close the artery, which was similar except I had delusions in full colour. It was not unpleasant.
I don't respond well to the drugs so I miss the clouded feeling I saw others have after exiting surgery. I have seen the look on their faces, and have been there myself once with pentathine and something else in a dose.
I woke in massive pain. My body weight had dropped to where I could not cope with more drugs, so they had to handle me gaining consciousness screaming like a banshee.
Reverie in it's best understood form, is seen more in children than adults, and no doubt many of us can recall feeling it's pleasant state which occurs easily in a happy peaceful mind mind on waking and feeling so comfortable we don't bring ourselves to a fully alert state. This seems to encourage all sorts of imaginings, many very vivid.
Getting in to the state of reverie can be learned though.
would those in a trance, hypnotised or having a 'spiritual' experience be in a state of reverie?
A good question! It certainly seems to involve a deliberate lack of focus, in fact that deliberate lack of focus is how I get to that state of consciousness even today.
A trance? The only trance I have seen that I could swear was real involved some Malaysian Indian group who worshipped in a cave and have an annual event where they stick objects through their cheeks and other body parts that leave no blood or scar on removal (saw it first-hand and videoed it all)
They prepare for months before the event and seem impervious to pain.
I have seen hypnosis first hand as well a few times. It seems reliant on the same sort of willingness to "hand over" the will to something other than self. Hypnosis may be the odd man out here though.
there's something called sleep paralysis where one is in that half-way state
I used to think such things were supernatural experiences, but since figuring out my son & I have food chemical sensitivities that can make us 'high' etc, I feel certain it's just our brain chemistry doing something wacky
That used to happen to me a lot, don't know what changed and I don't ever want it to happen again! It always felt like my mind woke up but my body hadn't yet and I couldn't move at all or breathe very well. For a while it felt like my body was trying to die but my mind woke up to give the alert!
Several months ago, one of my boys asked me if he had seen ghosts or something when he was a child. Caught me by surprise but I had to say yes, something was going on when he was up to about five years old, starting when he was a baby. I never believed in any of that so I never to what to make of it when he was little and I wish he could/would give more detail on what prompted him to ask me that more than twenty years later.
Our physical brains? More than we can perceive? A combination?
I would be looking at a brain scan first as well.
Illusions that impose on consciousness in that way could be caused by something interfering with the firing of your brains processes.
I think this might be why I was reluctant to address this question in the first place.
I know of many potential causes, but a scan would be needed to find any of them.
You seem to function well, so I would try not to be afraid. (easy for me to say I know)and go to the doctor straight away and relay the experience to him.
I feel sure he will offer to refer you to one of the many experts in this field.
Time for other ideas later, your health comes first.
Not afraid as such. That's all relative anyway, right?
The health thing really hadnt occured to me mainly because no other signs point to it. I don't get headaches, I don't get sick or dizzy. And my vision, in the light of day at least, is excellent as its always been.
Wouldn't say you guys scared me. Startled? Maybe.
if it doesn't happen often & don't get headaches and/or visual disturbances then probably nothing to worry about. My guess is it could be a chemical sensitivity to something you've ingested (which is why you would have had more 'episodes' as a child as your threshold would have been lower with less body mass)
Jonathan, I've had out of body experiences but nothing like yours. I've never encountered such a thing, but during conscious astral projections I've also become aware of feeling like an outsider, as if I'm not supposed to be there. All I know is that there is more than meets the eye, and science is constantly evolving and improving. The time will come when science will prove that those of us that have had spiritual experiences like these are not lunatics. It won't happen in this lifetime, but it will eventually happen.
I sent you an email a few weeks back about an interview with Dr. Brian Weiss. He talks about alien life as well, which is not exactly his forte, but it's interesting to hear his professional opinion on the subject. He's a graduate from Harvard and head of the psychiatric dpt over at Mount Sinai Hospital in Miami Beach.
Here it is... there are 12 audio clips. This is just the first one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etse1QxwumM
Yes. I watched the whole series.
Oh shoot... I hope I didn't mess you up even more! Ooops... sorry... I know it's a bit too much for some people. I apologize!
No, you didn't mess me up and it wasn't too overwhelming. But since then I've looked into related opinions in similar disciplines of study. And it just goes deeper and deeper.
Yes, I agree. It's opening a can of worms. But sometimes, you just have to do that in order to arrive to your own conclusions. I went through this myself and ended up being who I am...
No, seriously, you just have to look for your own answers and do a lot of research. You have one thing to your advantage - an open mind and willingness to learn.
I got myself checked and the doctors found nothing wrong with me. One doctor did get a little scared once I told him that I sensed the spirit of his older brother and he had to return the money he owed him to his widow. All 10,000 US dollars! True story!
Yes, he did! He started sweating like crazy and asked me if I had talked to his sister-in-law. I didn't know anyone in the family, and from what I was receiving, the widow didn't even know about the money. Honest truth, Earnest. It was a trip!
That is pretty wild. I can't say I ever sense spirits though except when I need a drink that's stronger than beer.
Klara, that's a beautiful gotcha! Shining a light makes some people squirm, but it's all good. Awareness is a good thing.
Beautiful and strange story, Jonathan. Sounds like a precious experience, one worth cherishing.
In 1971, I experienced the room go gray with a tunnel of vision toward the person with whom I was speaking. He was a spiritual counselor. I felt a little light-headed, but otherwise fine. The topic had been about relationships and in the midst of those ideas I found a reverie (Earnest's mention of reverie reminded me of this incident; thanks Earnest).
The next moment, I could see clearly, but could not feel the chair in which I sat, or the clothes I wore. In fact, my surroundings had changed entirely. My physical, Homo sapiens body felt clunky by comparison, for I wore no physical form.
I hovered about 5 meters above the ground, and about 4 meters off my body's left shoulder. I couldn't see my body, but knew it sat in a chair on the other side of closed, bluish-gray blinds on the second floor of the pink stucco building next to me. I could also see the near-empty parking lot of the Chez Claude Restaurant, next door. Location: Olympic, near Alvarado in Los Angeles. Time: around 8pm.
The trip lasted only a few moments. It ended abruptly when I realized that the light from the parking lot was shining right through "me" or my location; that I wasn't casting a shadow. Then I felt the breath in my nostrils, the chair underneath me, and the bulky weight of my body.
I've had that vivid an out-of-body experience only once. No drugs or physical trauma to cause hallucination. Only a conversation.
Could your experience have been hallucination? A problem with your health? Before taking on invasive procedures like CAT scans, I'd simply go with my gut feelings. If no harm seemed to occur, and no debilitating phenomena were associated with it, I'd simply enjoy it for everything it has to offer.
This reminds me of the John Travolta movie, "Phenomenon," about a man who sees a bright light, then becomes clairvoyant, telekenetic, and super-smart. The bright light had been caused by an inoperable, and deadly tumor, but the character's humility helped him make the best of those circumstances, giving rather than taking, adding value to those around him, rather than soaking up all he could get. He was confident, yet humble; that's a rare combination.
Did you thank the ones upon whom you had intruded? (If indeed it was an intrusion.)
You can only get better at something, if you trust yourself.
There is an amazing book called Astral Projection by Oliver Fox. I read it and found very useful information on how astral traveling occurs and how to control it (something I practiced and managed to do, but lost interest since there is really no need to control these experiences). Yours sounds like an amazing travel and I think it's great that you share it openly. All of us have astral prjections while dreaming and don't even know it. The conscious astral projection can be a bit intimidating at first. This book has it all and its one of the first recollections on this subject. Oliver Fox was a pioneer.
Thanks, Klarawieck. I'll see if I can find the book here in the Philippines. One thing I miss here is a good public library.
About a year after that experience, I moved from L.A. to Phoenix and my Dad introduced me to a 70-year-old gentleman who's apartment looked like an anthropological museum -- full of artifacts and bones.
He described having that ability naturally and in the mid 1950's having it tested by some unscrupulous individuals who ended up wanting buried treasure more than scientific knowledge. He described being invited to their office and being asked to describe the contents of the next room. He did so, matter-of-factly, including reading off the titles of the books on top of the file cabinet next to the door leading to the room in which he sat.
Wow, that's quite an experience. You're very lucky to have such clear memories of it after so long. I was hoping to see someone with a relatable experience after I posted this topic. Do you think it is important for me to express gratitude in some fashion in case there was a 'higher' reason for this experience? You seem to have an advanced view on how to absorb the unexplained.
Some things elicit clear memories. Frequently, these are "firsts." The first time you kissed someone romantically, the first time you... well, you get the idea. Each of these is far more vivid than the 99th time you did something. One of my earliest memories, this lifetime, was of crawling on the floor next to a white wooden shelf, next to a door, and my toys were stored on the bottom shelf. I remember my Mom yelling at me for not putting all my toys back. I asked my mother about that, years later. She said that occurred when I was 9 months old. The odd part is that of remembering that I didn't understand all the words she used. You see, English was still a new language to me.
Perhaps there was a "higher" reason for your experience, perhaps not. Ask yourself and trust your own answer. Sometimes listening to the quiet, still voice down deep inside requires patience and an unhurried intent. You say you sensed being an intruder there. Giving a mental thanks in the direction of those on whom you intruded is only a minor courtesy. But just do what feels right. You can only get good at something by trusting yourself.
Advanced view? I don't know about that. I'm still learning, like the rest of us. But I learned an awful lot from my father, including attempting to view new and strange things from a viewpoint of neutrality. He called it "neutral affinity" -- neither fearing/rejecting/scorning it nor clamoring for it or idolizing it.
Well, I have had multiple OBE's, have slowly trained a couple others to do the same, and lived for a time with a dream researcher who over the course of a year or so taught me to have a higher percentage of lucid dreams. After working with her for a while I had experiences that included shared dreams, and nested lucid dreams up to 15 levels deep.
Process of elimination:
It's not a lucid dream. You would have been conscious of the waking up part.
It doesn't sound anything like the OBE's I've had which were much calmer affairs. In fact, I was quite conscious once of being pulled back BECAUSE I got excited.
The optic thing is not to be discounted. There seems to be a heavy emphasis on colors and so forth. There are many physical and chemical reasons why optic centers in the brain can become overactive.
I'd say offhand that you were likely mentally and spiritually ready to experience something like that AND something was going on with you to excite optic centers.
I once had a similar experience of seeing blue lights. I was awake and reading at the time, when I looked up and saw several coin sized blue lights a few inches in front of my face and moving round and round. They only lasted for a few moments. I have never experienced them again. I also used to experience false awakenings, when I thought I had woken and got out of bed,and gone downstairs, only to actually wake again for real. Once during a similar experience, I saw an elderly woman, and spoke to her, asking her who she was. The name she gave me was that of the woman who had lived in my home before me and had died some years before. I had never met her. I noted what she was wearing, which included a floral print dressing gown and large eye glasses. Later describing my experience, neighbours confirmed that this woman had owned such a gown and always wore such glasses. However, I am now convinced that I was dreaming and the fact that she wore such clothing was just a coincidence.
That's fascinating. Are you sure you want to dismiss that 'ghost' experience so easiy? I used to have false awakenings too where I'd be half way through my workday and then would wake up in bed time to get up to go to work. Damn it.
Sherlock, I have no idea what your blue lights might have been. Do you remember what you were reading?
FALSE AWAKENINGS & GHOSTS
On "false awakenings," I've experienced similar, where the dream becomes lucid. At first, I think I'm awake, then realize that I'm still dreaming, but now conscious of that fact.
On the subject of the the old woman, floral print dress and large glasses, you talk of "coincidence." I take it from your context that you consider this a "happy accident" rather than a cause-and-effect coincidence -- the kind scientists use in the laboratory.
CLOSURE & PARADIGMS
We humans hunger for closure. We like our puzzles solved -- not open-ended. But there is some value in not closing the door on something which could go either way. Yes, it could've been an accidental coincidence, and it could also have been something extraordinary.
Scientists frequently hide behind a shield of skepticism and refuse to look at possibilities that don't fit within their neat and tidy worldviews. That works much of the time with no problems, but there are some classic examples of this being the wrong paradigm for science. The "Clovis first" dogma is only one.
Skepticism is the wrong paradigm for science because it goes against one of the key tenets of scientific method -- that which warns against bias. Skepticism contains a very volatile bias -- that of "doubt." In its more benign form, skepticism looks a lot like the better paradigm, humble restraint. But far too often skepticism (through the seduction of ego) becomes things like unsupported dismissiveness or self-indulgent ridicule. When a scientist uses this, they look and sound like a spoiled child who is not getting their way. Like the tantrum some scientists threw in the news several months ago when NASA scientists found arsenic-loving microbes. They may have stratospheric IQ's, but sub-basement EQ's.
Elementary, my dear Sherlock. Occam's razor is not always the best tool for whittling your way toward some relative truth. Sometimes you need added complexity to your current worldview simply because you're lacking the groundwork that will get you answers. Imagine a primitive jungle native trying to make their own incandescent light bulb. Occam's razor takes that native in the wrong direction.
In 1962 or early 1963, my father was sitting in our living room in Bethesda, Maryland, reading to his family (my mother, 3 brothers and I) supposedly true stories of the supernatural. One story I remember vividly, because of what happened after the story.
The story was of a manager who received a gift from his sister -- a glass ink well for his desk. One day, while talking to a co-worker, the ink well cracked. No one touched it. It just split with a loud crack. Two hours later, he received a phone call that his sister had just passed away. Later, he had the glass tested and found that it had cracked against the grain.
Right after my Dad finished reading this story, we all heard a loud crack. In the dining room, we saw that the shallow glass cover for the ceiling light had broken and was dangling precariously at the nut which previously had held it in place. A small circle of glass remained underneath the nut, and the four-cornered "bowl" of glass was caught by friction. My Dad rushed over and gently lowered it to the table.
Coincidence? Which kind?
Astral projection, also known as an out-of-body experience (OBE) or spirit or soul travel is thousands of years old, dating back to Ancient China. It can be done while awake in the alpha state, during deep meditation, or in the dream state.
OBE is usually associated with the body such as when a person is dying on an operating table and floating above the table see themselves being worked on by doctors. Another example is when a person has died and is encouraged to go into the light but then is called back.
am not surprising about what u have experienced ,in-fact it is usual thing for me and in somehow it is similar to what i have experienced such as hearing voices.but i have secured myself by AL rokya char3ia ..perhaps u don't know that because ur not Muslim.
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